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Ellen and Jerry Gilland – A Mercy Killing · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: On January twenty first, twoenty twenty three, a quiet hospital
0:12
Speaker 1: room in advent Health, Daytona Beach became the center of
0:16
Speaker 1: a heartbreaking and deeply complex tragedy. Ellen Gilland, a seventy
0:22
Speaker 1: six year old woman from Florida, had just shot and
0:25
Speaker 1: killed her husband, Jerry Gilland, a man she had loved
0:29
Speaker 1: for over half a century. The couple had made a
0:32
Speaker 1: suicide pact after his health took a severe turn for
0:35
Speaker 1: the worse, But when the moment came, Ellen managed to
0:39
Speaker 1: end her loving husband's misery, but couldn't follow through with
0:43
Speaker 1: taking her own life. Instead, she found herself in a
0:48
Speaker 1: four hour standoff with police, holding a gun and overcome
0:53
Speaker 1: with grief and fear. This is the heartbreaking story of
0:58
Speaker 1: Ellen and Jerry Gilland.
1:00
Speaker 2: And my name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked.
1:05
Speaker 1: And Grim, a true crime podcasting. The following material Audience listener,
1:35
Speaker 1: Happy Spring.
1:36
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yesterday right was the first official day.
1:39
Speaker 1: The first day of spring.
1:41
Speaker 2: And and it snowed here?
1:43
Speaker 1: It did it snowed? I mean that's Canada for you.
1:47
Speaker 1: Wamp wamp got the weather up here.
1:49
Speaker 2: But at least we know there's an end, an end
1:51
Speaker 2: in sight.
1:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, we get a short window of summer up here.
1:54
Speaker 1: But yeah, and then as soon as I mean September
1:58
Speaker 1: rolls around, then it gets cold again and we're right
2:00
Speaker 1: back to it. At least for us. I don't know
2:02
Speaker 1: any know.
2:02
Speaker 2: Where you guys live, I would say more so October
2:04
Speaker 2: September is usually pretty nice up here.
2:06
Speaker 1: Well, it does get nice, but you start getting frost
2:09
Speaker 1: in the evenings and stuff, you know, leave.
2:10
Speaker 2: Your chair changing.
2:12
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, enjoy it while it lasts, because winter
2:18
Speaker 1: will be right back on your doorsteps.
2:19
Speaker 2: Yesh, it hasn't even ended, Ben, you're already anticipating next window.
2:23
Speaker 1: Winter has ended because it's the spring. Now. I'm just saying,
2:26
Speaker 1: just warning you, just you know, enjoy it.
2:29
Speaker 2: I don't know. I always think it's funny springs here,
2:31
Speaker 2: but like where we live, I don't know, it doesn't
2:34
Speaker 2: really correspond. I always feel like springs a little bit later. Officially.
2:39
Speaker 1: Well, you see all those videos of like spring break
2:42
Speaker 1: parties on like beaches and stuff, and people are in
2:44
Speaker 1: bikinis and doing shots, and we're like still putting on
2:47
Speaker 1: our jackets and winter boots, trudging through snow.
2:49
Speaker 2: No we're not, though, we put our winter jackets away
2:52
Speaker 2: a long time ago, which I think was a mistake.
2:54
Speaker 2: I saw someone wearing shorts just yesterday or the day
2:57
Speaker 2: before at the grocery store.
2:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's still cold out there.
3:00
Speaker 2: We still have jackets, and we just like freeze our
3:03
Speaker 2: butts off for a little bit because we're done with this.
3:05
Speaker 1: I was wearing a wool cloak walking the dogs this morning.
3:08
Speaker 2: That's because you like your wool cloak.
3:10
Speaker 1: I do like my wool cloak. I have a if
3:12
Speaker 1: you know your cloaks, I have a ruwana cloak and
3:15
Speaker 1: I love it.
3:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he walks around in our yard like that.
3:19
Speaker 1: Fuck yeah I do.
3:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of awesome.
3:21
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm off heading to you know, the
3:24
Speaker 1: Lonely Mountain or something like that from the Shy or
3:26
Speaker 1: maybe I don't know.
3:28
Speaker 2: Gotta love it with your too husky say.
3:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyways, I think we should get into this story
3:33
Speaker 1: right away. This is quite the tail and happened quite
3:36
Speaker 1: recently in fact, and is just recently within the past
3:40
Speaker 1: few months being resolved.
3:42
Speaker 2: Okay, well, yeah, you did tell me a little bit
3:45
Speaker 2: about it, but really nothing more than the intro. Even
3:48
Speaker 2: the intro had a bit more than I knew, and
3:50
Speaker 2: it's this is gonna, I feel, be a heartbreaking one.
3:54
Speaker 1: This is very much a heartbreaking one. And it's got
3:56
Speaker 1: a little bit of controversy around it as well, because
3:58
Speaker 1: there's like, well, what do you do in a situation
4:01
Speaker 1: like that if you are put in that situation? And
4:03
Speaker 1: what do you do if you are the authorities in
4:06
Speaker 1: that situation? And well, of course we have our answers
4:09
Speaker 1: and what actually happened, but what you think might be
4:11
Speaker 1: completely different. So it is a little bit controversial. There's
4:14
Speaker 1: people on both sides of the coins and what they
4:16
Speaker 1: think should and should not have happened. But we'll go
4:19
Speaker 1: through this and we'll see where we're at.
4:21
Speaker 2: Okay, let's hear it.
4:23
Speaker 1: So this story hit headlines and it may may have
4:26
Speaker 1: seemed like a shocking act of violence, but Ellen, to her,
4:30
Speaker 1: it was something else entirely. It was a promise, a
4:33
Speaker 1: heartbreaking last act of love for the men that she
4:36
Speaker 1: spent fifty three years with, fifty three years by his
4:39
Speaker 1: side and Jerry, I mean, he was terminally ill, suffering
4:43
Speaker 1: from severe health complications and had begged her to help
4:47
Speaker 1: him end his life. In Ellen's eyes, she was granting
4:51
Speaker 1: him his last and final wish gosh. Now, Ellen's story
4:56
Speaker 1: is one of love, loss and desperation. She and Jerry
4:59
Speaker 1: build life together from their teenage years, through marriage, health struggles,
5:03
Speaker 1: and the challenges of aging. Their journey led to a
5:07
Speaker 1: moment neither of them had ever imagined. Now, Ellen Gillen's
5:11
Speaker 1: life started far from the headlines in the courtrooms. Now,
5:16
Speaker 1: one thing, before I really get into this, I want
5:18
Speaker 1: to tell you that most of the research actually came
5:21
Speaker 1: from Ellen herself. So there is a video on YouTube
5:25
Speaker 1: where she stands and addresses the courtroom and she tells
5:28
Speaker 1: a bit of her story, who she is and how
5:30
Speaker 1: she got to the situation she found herself in. So
5:33
Speaker 1: what I'm telling you is my interpretation coming directly from her.
5:39
Speaker 1: So I listened to her talk, and this is what
5:41
Speaker 1: we have, okay. So Ellen was born in Iowa in
5:44
Speaker 1: nineteen forty six, the daughter of you know, a typical
5:48
Speaker 1: middle class American family. When she was just three years
5:51
Speaker 1: old in nineteen forty nine, her parents packed up their
5:53
Speaker 1: lives and moved to Ormond Beach, Florida, looking for new opportunities.
5:57
Speaker 1: Her father was a building contractor, working hard to construct
6:00
Speaker 1: homes in a growing Florida town, while her mother was
6:03
Speaker 1: a teacher and elementary school principal, instilling the value of
6:07
Speaker 1: education in their children. Now Ellen grew up and in
6:12
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, her youngest sister would be born, completing
6:15
Speaker 1: the family. In nineteen fifty six, when Ellen was ten
6:18
Speaker 1: years old, the family relocated once again, this time to
6:21
Speaker 1: winter Park, Florida, where she would spend the rest of
6:23
Speaker 1: her childhood. And there they met. Ellen and Jerry met
6:29
Speaker 1: as young teenagers in the eighth grade, attending middle school
6:32
Speaker 1: in winter Park, Florida. Together over the years, they developed
6:35
Speaker 1: a close friendship, sharing classes, conversations, and everyday school life together.
6:40
Speaker 1: Now throughout middle and high school, they remained good friends,
6:43
Speaker 1: but nothing more. Life took them in different directions after graduation,
6:48
Speaker 1: and eventually, like many, they just simply lost touch. Now
6:52
Speaker 1: Ellen attended Winter Park public schools at the time and
6:56
Speaker 1: excelled all through her studies, and later she enrolled in
6:59
Speaker 1: Rolling College, a private liberal arts school. She had a
7:03
Speaker 1: creative side, and after finishing at Roland, she pursued her
7:05
Speaker 1: artistic interests at Wringling School of Art in Sarasota, Florida,
7:10
Speaker 1: where she spent two years studying Ellen's early years were
7:14
Speaker 1: shaped by a strong work ethic and a love for learning,
7:18
Speaker 1: values that would stay with her all throughout her life.
7:21
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty four, during the Christmas season, Ellen and
7:25
Speaker 1: Jerry just so happened to bump in each other by
7:28
Speaker 1: happenstance at winter Park Mall. Now, they were both in
7:31
Speaker 1: their late teens, and something about that moment changed things.
7:36
Speaker 1: They started dating a little bit, you know, casually at first,
7:40
Speaker 1: then a little bit more seriously as time went on.
7:42
Speaker 1: The relationship had a slow and steady foundation built on
7:46
Speaker 1: years of friendship from the past and you know, deep understanding.
7:49
Speaker 1: But life had other plans. In nineteen sixty four, Jerry
7:53
Speaker 1: was sent to Vietnam, serving as a clerk typist in
7:57
Speaker 1: a Joint Air Force and Army commander office. Now, while
8:01
Speaker 1: he wasn't in direct combat, his role was important. He
8:04
Speaker 1: handed paperwork from high ranking officials and had access to
8:08
Speaker 1: key personnel. This connection would prove life saving when Ellen's
8:12
Speaker 1: brother Jean, who was also in Vietnam, was in danger
8:15
Speaker 1: of being left behind. See Jane was a ranger who
8:19
Speaker 1: had been wounded and was due to rotate back to
8:21
Speaker 1: the USA, but due to a paperwork error, he was overlooked,
8:25
Speaker 1: and he wrote home, telling his family that he might
8:28
Speaker 1: not make it out alive.
8:30
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
8:32
Speaker 1: When Ellen's mother heard this, she immediately reached out to
8:36
Speaker 1: her daughter, desperate for help, and Ellen in turn told Jerry,
8:39
Speaker 1: who used his position to track down Jane's orders and
8:42
Speaker 1: personally walked them through the system. Because of Jerry's actions,
8:46
Speaker 1: Jane was able to return home safely.
8:48
Speaker 2: Okay, that's awesome.
8:50
Speaker 1: After Jerry's service in Vietnam, the two knew they didn't
8:53
Speaker 1: want to spend any more time apart.
8:55
Speaker 2: I know, I was like, that will do it?
8:56
Speaker 1: Eh. In nineteen sixty nine, they got married and started
9:00
Speaker 1: their life together. Officially, this is honestly something that should
9:05
Speaker 1: be fucking turned into a movie. Their life seems like
9:08
Speaker 1: a romance novel. And I'm not talking like one of
9:10
Speaker 1: those hot and steamy ones. I'm talking like, just like
9:12
Speaker 1: a beautiful story for the thing, you know what I mean?
9:15
Speaker 2: That does like I mean he went about saving her
9:18
Speaker 2: brother right, and then now they're like, okay, we're in.
9:23
Speaker 1: Well and not only that, how many Hallmark movies can
9:25
Speaker 1: you think of and name off the top of your head.
9:27
Speaker 1: You probably don't even have enough fingers that have people
9:30
Speaker 1: who knew each other in high school kind of liked
9:32
Speaker 1: each other a little bit and then they bump into
9:34
Speaker 1: each other in a mall.
9:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, well wasn't it at Christmas too?
9:40
Speaker 1: Yeah?
9:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there you go, like.
9:42
Speaker 1: Just saying this should like Hallmark get on this.
9:46
Speaker 2: I also have to just point out to I don't know,
9:49
Speaker 2: you said, you were talking about how they the family's
9:52
Speaker 2: relocated right and like a few times, and how they
9:55
Speaker 2: start their life and stuff restart their life. I kind
9:58
Speaker 2: of love that. I don't feel like that is something
10:00
Speaker 2: people really do so much anymore.
10:02
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. I think many people will
10:05
Speaker 1: relocate prior to ever starting their life at all, prior
10:09
Speaker 1: to having roots set then.
10:11
Speaker 2: But I think it's just this world. It's hard to
10:13
Speaker 2: do that, like to get a mortgage and stuff in
10:16
Speaker 2: a different city per se, It's not always like the easiest.
10:19
Speaker 1: Right, So yeah, ain't that the truth? You have to
10:21
Speaker 1: prove you know, job opportunities and income prior to getting
10:25
Speaker 1: a more hit new towns.
10:26
Speaker 2: You can't really just like start over as easy and
10:29
Speaker 2: maybe as back then.
10:30
Speaker 1: So yeah, now, over the next fifty three years, they
10:33
Speaker 1: built this you know, full love, full life of love.
10:37
Speaker 1: Jerry was known for his kindness, as humor, and generosity,
10:40
Speaker 1: and Ellen saw him as her rock throughout all of
10:43
Speaker 1: life's ups and downs. Now Jerry had a position for
10:46
Speaker 1: or sorry, a passion for cooking and woodworking, often making
10:49
Speaker 1: beautiful handmade boxes and even crafting port swings you know,
10:53
Speaker 1: one to sit outside their home. Though they never had children,
10:56
Speaker 1: they built a life centered around each other. Ellen's career
11:00
Speaker 1: path was anything but ordinary. She didn't follow a single path,
11:04
Speaker 1: but instead carved out of life filled with creativity and
11:08
Speaker 1: independence and also adaptability. Over the years, she worked in
11:13
Speaker 1: professional photography labs, managed managed a Walden book's retail store,
11:18
Speaker 1: and even ran her own Foliage nursery. Whether it was arts,
11:22
Speaker 1: books or plants. Allen seemed to have a knack for
11:25
Speaker 1: diving into new ventures and making them work no matter what. Meanwhile,
11:29
Speaker 1: Jerry took a different route. He was a skilled tradesman
11:33
Speaker 1: working in construction for a company that specialized in installing
11:36
Speaker 1: high purity stainless steel piping for computer and pharmaceutical industries.
11:42
Speaker 1: His work took him all over the country, and Ellen
11:45
Speaker 1: often traveled with him, sharing in the experience going on
11:48
Speaker 1: the road. But as they got older, they began thinking
11:51
Speaker 1: about their future, particularly retirement. With Jerry's job requiring constant travel,
11:57
Speaker 1: Ellen realized she needed a more stable career with some
12:01
Speaker 1: more benefits. She had always been interested in education, and
12:04
Speaker 1: since she'd already had a degree, she decided to return
12:07
Speaker 1: to school in her fifties to specialize in Exceptional Students
12:11
Speaker 1: Education or ESE, which that in itself is pretty awesome
12:17
Speaker 1: going back to school in your fifties.
12:20
Speaker 2: I honestly love this couple so far. I'm just like
12:22
Speaker 2: so obsessed with them.
12:24
Speaker 1: Fair enough so balancing work in night classes, Ellen earned
12:29
Speaker 1: her master's degree in special education from Nova South Southeastern University.
12:34
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, she landed a job as an
12:37
Speaker 1: ees teacher at Mount Dora Middle School. She later also
12:40
Speaker 1: taught at Mount Dora High School and dedicated over fifteen
12:43
Speaker 1: years helping students with learning and behavioral disabilities before retiring
12:48
Speaker 1: finally in twenty thirteen. By the time they settled into
12:52
Speaker 1: their later years, Ellen and Jerry had built a full
12:56
Speaker 1: and busy life. They had traveled, they'd worked hard, hard,
13:00
Speaker 1: and planned for a stable future with each other by
13:03
Speaker 1: their side. But what they couldn't have planned for was
13:07
Speaker 1: a health crisis that would turn their world upside down.
13:13
Speaker 1: As much as Ellen and Jerry had built a life
13:15
Speaker 1: of love and stability, time brought challenges that neither could
13:19
Speaker 1: have ever foreseen. Health issues, family losses, and natural disasters
13:23
Speaker 1: piled up, making their life later years more difficult than
13:26
Speaker 1: they had ever expected. Ellen had faced serious health struggles
13:30
Speaker 1: from a young age. In fact, she was even diagnosed
13:32
Speaker 1: with cancer earlier in her life, forcing her to undergo
13:35
Speaker 1: a hysterectomy, which is the reason why they were never
13:38
Speaker 1: able to have children. Later in life, she learned that
13:42
Speaker 1: she carried the brack of one gene, or the BRCA
13:45
Speaker 1: one gene. It's a mutation which puts her at very
13:48
Speaker 1: high risk for breast and ovarian cancer. That risk became
13:52
Speaker 1: devastatingly real when her younger sister died from ovarian cancer,
13:57
Speaker 1: and years later her older sister also lost the battle
14:00
Speaker 1: with cancer too.
14:01
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
14:03
Speaker 1: In addition to cancer, Ellen suffered from osteoporosis, a condition
14:07
Speaker 1: she inherited from her father and grandmother. It made her
14:10
Speaker 1: bones brittle and fragile, leading to frequent fractures throughout her life.
14:15
Speaker 1: Over the years, she had been hospitalized more than a
14:17
Speaker 1: dozen times. For broken bones. Her medical history included a
14:22
Speaker 1: replaced left hip, replaced right knee, metal rods and both femurs,
14:27
Speaker 1: a pin in her right hip, bone to bone pain
14:30
Speaker 1: in her left knee, you name it. She had lots
14:33
Speaker 1: going on.
14:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a lot, But.
14:36
Speaker 1: That wasn't all. Ellen also battled type two diabetes. She
14:40
Speaker 1: also battled COPD sleep apnea. I don't know if I
14:44
Speaker 1: can pronounce this one, but you're going to do my best.
14:46
Speaker 1: Sojourns syndrome, and high cholesterol. Daily life became a struggle,
14:51
Speaker 1: and she often relied on a walker to get around.
14:54
Speaker 1: As if her own health challenges weren't enough, loss continued
14:57
Speaker 1: to follow her. Her brother Jean, who Jerry had helped
15:00
Speaker 1: save in Vietnam, later died from complications related to agent
15:04
Speaker 1: orange exposure. By the time twenty twenty two arrived, Ellen
15:08
Speaker 1: had lost both her sisters and her brother.
15:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just like, that's all her siblings, isn't it.
15:13
Speaker 1: Yes. Her only remaining close family member was her niece,
15:17
Speaker 1: and by then Jerry was all she had left oh Man. Then,
15:23
Speaker 1: in late twenty twenty two, disaster struck once again. A
15:28
Speaker 1: hurricane flooded their home, damaging or destroying many of their belongings.
15:32
Speaker 1: They lost furniture, legal documents, financial documents, Ellen's personal art portfolios.
15:39
Speaker 1: You know, powered what's the word I'm looking for machinery.
15:46
Speaker 1: Maybe machinery isn't the word, but like powered wheelchairs and stuff,
15:49
Speaker 1: you know, things to make their life. I'm trying to think.
15:52
Speaker 2: Of medical assistance, yes.
15:54
Speaker 1: Medical assisting stuff. I can't think of the word. Why
15:59
Speaker 1: can't I think of the word. You guys know what
16:01
Speaker 1: we're talking about, Like powered wheelchairs, you know, motorize things
16:04
Speaker 1: or whatever for help their health. They're aging exactly now.
16:08
Speaker 1: The stress from the hurricane left Ellen deep deeply anxious,
16:12
Speaker 1: triggering panic attacks even just whenever it rained. The couple
16:16
Speaker 1: had to move into temporary housing and struggling to rebuild
16:19
Speaker 1: their lives, while Jerry was now declining in health as well.
16:24
Speaker 2: Holy shit, Oh, their life was like is so magical.
16:27
Speaker 2: But then there's also now as they're aging, it just
16:30
Speaker 2: seems kind of shitty. I know, dang, they don't deserve that.
16:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. So for years Ellen and Jerry were there, supporting
16:38
Speaker 1: each other through every single hardship they faced, But as
16:40
Speaker 1: Jerry's condition worsened, Ellen found herself in an unthinkable position.
16:45
Speaker 1: She was beginning to watch the man that she loved
16:47
Speaker 1: suffer with absolutely no hope of recovery. For most of
16:53
Speaker 1: his life, Jerry was a strong and capable man. He
16:56
Speaker 1: had always been relatively healthy, working physically demanding jobs well
17:00
Speaker 1: into adulthood, but after retirement things started to change. Jerry
17:04
Speaker 1: gained a significant amount of weight, which led to type
17:06
Speaker 1: two diabetes and atri fiblleration, a heart condition that causes
17:12
Speaker 1: an irregular and often dangerously fast heartbeat. He also developed
17:17
Speaker 1: a hernia, which required surgery, but during that operation, doctors
17:21
Speaker 1: made a terrifying discovery. Jerry had an aortic aneurism, a
17:26
Speaker 1: dangerous bulge in the main artery of the heart. He
17:30
Speaker 1: underwent surgery to repair the aneurism, but during that procedure,
17:33
Speaker 1: doctors discovered a second, smaller aneurism located even closer to
17:38
Speaker 1: his heart. At first, he recovered well, but his body
17:41
Speaker 1: became fragile and one health issue seemed to lead to another.
17:45
Speaker 1: Then in December of twenty twenty two, Jerry's health took
17:48
Speaker 1: a sudden and devastating turn. He became seriously ill and
17:52
Speaker 1: was admitted to intensive care at Advent Health in New
17:57
Speaker 1: Samira Beach, Florida. From there, he was transferred to the
18:01
Speaker 1: Hospital Rehabilitation Unit in Ormond Beach on January first, twenty
18:05
Speaker 1: twenty three. At first, Ellen and Jerry they remained hopeful
18:10
Speaker 1: despite his condition. Jerry was talking and could even eat
18:13
Speaker 1: soft foods. His tracheotomy tube used to help him breathe
18:18
Speaker 1: was supposed to be removed soon a major step towards recovery.
18:21
Speaker 1: Physical therapists work with him and trying to help him stand,
18:25
Speaker 1: you know, beside his bed in the hospital, things like this.
18:28
Speaker 1: But after just a few weeks, things started to go wrong.
18:32
Speaker 1: Jerry developed a severe bed sore, causing excruciating pain. He
18:36
Speaker 1: became weaker instead of stronger, losing his ability to stand.
18:39
Speaker 1: The physical therapy team stopped coming as often, and eventually
18:43
Speaker 1: they stopped coming at all. The tracheotomy tube, which was
18:46
Speaker 1: supposed to be removed, remained in place. Jerry, who had
18:50
Speaker 1: once been hopeful, began to lose faith that there would
18:53
Speaker 1: ever be a day where he could leave the hospital.
18:57
Speaker 1: He told his brother Sam that he wouldn't make it
18:59
Speaker 1: out alive, and Ellen, who spent twelve to fourteen hours
19:03
Speaker 1: a day at his bedside, watched helplessly as her husband
19:06
Speaker 1: deteriorated right before her eyes.
19:09
Speaker 2: Dang, it almost seems like they gave up on him.
19:11
Speaker 2: But I guess they're like the rehabilitation team. There was
19:14
Speaker 2: just nothing else, nothing they could be doing, and how
19:17
Speaker 2: he got like was seeming more healthy.
19:20
Speaker 1: Exactly. You can only rehabilitate those who are on the
19:23
Speaker 1: path to rehabilitation, right, Yeah. Like, for example, if you have,
19:29
Speaker 1: say a dying limb, your leg is dying for whatever reason.
19:32
Speaker 1: You know, circulation's going, You're not going to learn to rewalk.
19:36
Speaker 1: If your limb is still dying, you need, you know,
19:38
Speaker 1: to have that limb get better or amputated to learn
19:41
Speaker 1: to walk without it. Yah, there's steps to take before
19:44
Speaker 1: learning to walk again, you know what I mean, right, Yeah,
19:48
Speaker 1: So desperate to find help. I mean there was of
19:52
Speaker 1: course questions, you know that they had and everything, but
19:56
Speaker 1: they're doing their best. They're desperate to find help. They're
19:58
Speaker 1: talking to nurses, talking to doctors, trying to figure it out,
20:02
Speaker 1: and Ellen just threw it all, refused to leave his bedside,
20:05
Speaker 1: and despite her efforts, Jerry just still kept getting worse.
20:09
Speaker 1: By mid January, Ellen had come to the heartbreaking realization
20:14
Speaker 1: her husband wasn't getting better, he was getting worse, and
20:18
Speaker 1: Jerry was growing weaker and more depressed each day. By
20:22
Speaker 1: mid January twenty twenty three, Jerry was giving up any
20:27
Speaker 1: sort of hope. The man who had spent his life working, traveling,
20:30
Speaker 1: and building a future with his wife was now bedridden.
20:34
Speaker 1: He was in pain and unable to stand. The tracheotomy tube,
20:37
Speaker 1: which doctors had initially said could be removed, seemed like
20:40
Speaker 1: it was never going to be. He couldn't eat solid
20:43
Speaker 1: foods anymore, he couldn't move freely, and he become a
20:46
Speaker 1: shadow of the man that he once was. Day after day,
20:50
Speaker 1: Ellen just sat there watched, praying, but her husband just
20:55
Speaker 1: grew weaker and more hopeless. He started telling her and
20:59
Speaker 1: his brother Sam that he wasn't going to make it out,
21:02
Speaker 1: and then one of the hardest conversations came. The conversations
21:07
Speaker 1: turned from you know, I'm not getting out of here,
21:10
Speaker 1: and it turned to Jerry begging Ellen to help him
21:13
Speaker 1: end his life. At first, Ellen didn't believe it. There
21:18
Speaker 1: were other options, right, There's got to be had. They
21:21
Speaker 1: tried everything, but from their perspective, the hospital staff just
21:24
Speaker 1: wasn't listening to her concerns. And Jerry's condition it wasn't improving.
21:29
Speaker 1: She didn't seem to trust the system anymore. She later
21:32
Speaker 1: testified that no one ever talked to her about hospice
21:36
Speaker 1: or even comfort care, which might have provided an alternate
21:39
Speaker 1: ending to Jerry's life, but instead she and Jerry were
21:42
Speaker 1: left feeling isolated and just out of options. After two
21:47
Speaker 1: days of discussions, Ellen gave in. On January twenty first,
21:54
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. She left the hospital and drove back
21:57
Speaker 1: to the rental house that they'd been staying in since
21:59
Speaker 1: the hurric Jerry had always owned a thirty eight caliber Revolver,
22:04
Speaker 1: but it had been damaged by floodwaters when their home
22:07
Speaker 1: was destroyed. He told Ellen where to find it, and
22:10
Speaker 1: she took it, the gun and bullets to a gun
22:12
Speaker 1: shop to make sure it was still functional. The workers
22:15
Speaker 1: checked it over and confirmed that with a little cleaning,
22:18
Speaker 1: it would fire just fine. That same day, Ellen sat
22:21
Speaker 1: at a computer and typed a suicide.
22:24
Speaker 2: Note, Oh my Goodness.
22:28
Speaker 1: She later said she hadn't originally planned to write one,
22:30
Speaker 1: but felt that she should say something before carrying out
22:33
Speaker 1: the plan that they had concocted. She then returned to
22:37
Speaker 1: the hospital carrying a gun and a fresh box of bullets.
22:41
Speaker 1: When she was back in Jerry's room, they talked one
22:43
Speaker 1: last time about what they were about to do. Jerry
22:48
Speaker 1: was supposed to do it himself. However, he was too
22:51
Speaker 1: weak to even hold the gun. He loaded it himself,
22:55
Speaker 1: but he couldn't lift it off his chest. And that's
22:57
Speaker 1: when Ellen realized she would have to pull trigger for him.
23:01
Speaker 2: Okay, because it's not like it's it's not the smallest
23:05
Speaker 2: of guns, right, It's a pistol, it's a it's a revolve,
23:09
Speaker 2: a revolver. Oh, it is, okay, So he's like really
23:13
Speaker 2: weak at this.
23:13
Speaker 1: Point, then yes, it would be just like a couple pounds,
23:16
Speaker 1: like maybe two pounds or something like that. Man, And yeah,
23:19
Speaker 1: he can't he can't lift it off his chest.
23:22
Speaker 2: And I just also have to say, like she herself
23:25
Speaker 2: has so much health issues too, right, and like I
23:28
Speaker 2: can't imagine her watching her husband.
23:32
Speaker 1: Just fade away.
23:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, is any good for her? Right either in her
23:37
Speaker 2: stress and stuff?
23:38
Speaker 1: Like dang, definitely not now. Upon this realization, she took
23:44
Speaker 1: a deep breath and one last time she hesitated. According
23:48
Speaker 1: to Ellen, she held the gun behind Jerry's ear, but
23:51
Speaker 1: for a moment She pulled it away and asked him,
23:54
Speaker 1: are you sure. Jerry didn't speak. Instead, he placed his
23:59
Speaker 1: hand on her arm and pushed the gun back towards
24:03
Speaker 1: his head.
24:04
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
24:06
Speaker 1: A second later, she pulled the trigger. The sound of
24:11
Speaker 1: the gunshot rang through the hospital, but for Ellen, the
24:14
Speaker 1: world had gone completely silent. Jerry was now gone. The
24:19
Speaker 1: man that she loved for over five decades lay lifeless
24:23
Speaker 1: in front of her. She had promised him that she
24:26
Speaker 1: would follow soon after, but that this would be what
24:31
Speaker 1: they did together, their final act in their relationship. But
24:34
Speaker 1: as she sat there in that hospital room, her hands shaking,
24:38
Speaker 1: she just couldn't find the will to do it herself.
24:42
Speaker 1: She placed the gun on the bedside, then picked it
24:47
Speaker 1: back up. She wanted to finish what they had planned,
24:50
Speaker 1: but she just couldn't do it. And that's when a
24:53
Speaker 1: nurse walked in. At first, the nurse thought a piece
24:57
Speaker 1: of equipment had fallen in the bed and that's what
25:00
Speaker 1: was sitting there, But when he saw Jerry motionless and
25:05
Speaker 1: Ellen sitting there, he froze. He realized what that piece
25:10
Speaker 1: of equipment was. Ellen, overcome with grief, waved the gun
25:14
Speaker 1: in his direction and told him leave me alone. The
25:18
Speaker 1: nurse backed out of the room and sounded the hospital alarm.
25:22
Speaker 1: Within minutes, hospital security guards arrived at the door, cautiously
25:26
Speaker 1: looking inside. Allan was still sitting there, crying and holding
25:30
Speaker 1: Jerry's hand, and she shouted at them, I have a gun,
25:34
Speaker 1: go away now. They of course retreated and called police,
25:38
Speaker 1: and they arrived very soon after. Police quickly realized this
25:43
Speaker 1: wasn't just a crime scene, it was a hostage situation
25:46
Speaker 1: at this point, as she was hold up with Jerry's
25:48
Speaker 1: remains in that room and for the next four hours,
25:51
Speaker 1: negotiators tried to convince Ellen to put the gun down
25:54
Speaker 1: and surrender peacefully, but Ellen was still in a state
25:58
Speaker 1: of shock. She didn't trust what police were telling her,
26:02
Speaker 1: as they were telling her that they were able to
26:03
Speaker 1: get Jerry a funeral if she cooperated, but she just
26:06
Speaker 1: didn't believe them. And by this time hospital staff had
26:10
Speaker 1: evacuated nearby patients and the floor was in lockdown. Officers
26:14
Speaker 1: stood outside the room, ballistic shields raised, waiting for an
26:17
Speaker 1: opportunity to end the standoff. Now, Ellen, she was just
26:22
Speaker 1: in grief. She wanted to spend last moments with her
26:24
Speaker 1: husband in peace. She was in shock, she didn't know
26:28
Speaker 1: what she was doing.
26:29
Speaker 2: In all honesty, I know, I feel like what she
26:31
Speaker 2: had envisioned or thought this process would be like, it
26:35
Speaker 2: didn't end that way.
26:36
Speaker 1: No. Now. At one point, Ellen considered shooting herself once again,
26:40
Speaker 1: and she later recalled putting the gun to her temple,
26:42
Speaker 1: but realized that as she pulled the trigger, she would
26:45
Speaker 1: fall onto the floor. To quote her, I wasn't thinking clearly.
26:50
Speaker 1: I spent the last forty years being careful not to
26:53
Speaker 1: fall on the floor.
26:55
Speaker 2: Man.
26:56
Speaker 1: So her body was telling her, if you do this,
26:58
Speaker 1: you're going to fall on the floor. Yeah, And that
26:59
Speaker 1: was again every instinct that.
27:01
Speaker 2: She had because her bones are so brittle, right, yes.
27:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, In that moment, she set the gun down just
27:06
Speaker 1: for a second to adjust her chair. That was the
27:10
Speaker 1: opening that the police were waiting for. As soon as
27:13
Speaker 1: Ellen reached for the gun again, officers threw in a
27:15
Speaker 1: flash bang grenade into the room. A loud, disorienting explosion
27:19
Speaker 1: designed to stun her went off. So if you don't
27:22
Speaker 1: know flash bang grenades, it's a grenade. It's completely harmless,
27:26
Speaker 1: but it's just a stunning sound and stunning light, so
27:28
Speaker 1: it blinds. It basically takes away many of your senses
27:32
Speaker 1: for a few minutes. Okay, okay, So it's a loud
27:34
Speaker 1: bang and a blinding light. Ellen says she doesn't remember
27:37
Speaker 1: exactly what happened next, but as a flash bang went off,
27:40
Speaker 1: the gun discharged in the room, the bullet went into
27:44
Speaker 1: the ceiling, and officers rushed onto her. She dropped the
27:47
Speaker 1: gun and raised her hands, and she was officially arrested.
27:52
Speaker 1: One officer swabbed her hands for gunpowder residue, obviously for
27:56
Speaker 1: evidence of a potential murder right while another appallogized for
28:00
Speaker 1: shooting at her because in the chaos when the gun discharged,
28:04
Speaker 1: he too shot, but he shot and just missed her,
28:07
Speaker 1: hitting the floor behind her. They placed her in a wheelchair,
28:12
Speaker 1: handcuffed her, and took her out of the hospital. The
28:15
Speaker 1: four hour standoff was officially over Allen was booked into
28:20
Speaker 1: the Volusia County Jail and charged with manslaughter with a
28:24
Speaker 1: firearm and multiple counts of aggravated assault with the deadly weapon.
28:31
Speaker 1: Prosecutors originally pursued harsher charges, including first degree murder, but
28:35
Speaker 1: as the case unfolded, they offered a plea deal. In
28:39
Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty four, Ellen pleaded no contest, which
28:43
Speaker 1: means that she accepts the punishment without admitting guilt. In exchange,
28:48
Speaker 1: prosecutors waived sentencing guidelines, including a mandatory three year minimum
28:54
Speaker 1: for one of the charges, and capped her prison sentence
28:58
Speaker 1: at ten years. So that means that whatever the judge
29:02
Speaker 1: decides a sentence or two, it could not go over
29:04
Speaker 1: ten years, right, Okay. The final sentencing hearing took place
29:08
Speaker 1: on February twenty eighth, twoenty twenty five, under a month ago.
29:14
Speaker 2: Holy shit. Yeah, I was just like listening to the
29:18
Speaker 2: date and I'm like what Yeah, Oh okay.
29:21
Speaker 1: Judge Catherine D. Weston made one thing very clear. Ellen
29:26
Speaker 1: wasn't just being sentenced for killing Jerry. She was being
29:30
Speaker 1: sentenced for the trauma she caused others on that day.
29:33
Speaker 2: And yeah, with like the chaos within the hospital.
29:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. During the hearing, hospital staff members who had been
29:39
Speaker 1: in the hospital that day gave quite the emotional statements
29:43
Speaker 1: and testimonies. Nurse Hector Aponti, a security officer Corey Jackson.
29:48
Speaker 1: They testified about having a gun pointed at them and
29:50
Speaker 1: feeling genuinely threatened for their lives. Body cambridge footage. Bodycam
29:55
Speaker 1: footage from swat teams and police officers in the hospital hallways,
29:59
Speaker 1: armed and ready to neutralize a threat if at all possible,
30:02
Speaker 1: showed that it was very clear that Ellen was posing
30:05
Speaker 1: a very real threat, even if she wasn't meaning to.
30:10
Speaker 2: I just have to say something like, I get that,
30:13
Speaker 2: but I just feel like this day and age, like
30:15
Speaker 2: everyone just if they make everything about them and it
30:19
Speaker 2: wasn't about them, you know, in a sense. But I
30:22
Speaker 2: do get that, it would have been like scary. But
30:25
Speaker 2: I don't think that Helen was a threat to anyone
30:28
Speaker 2: else really per se.
30:31
Speaker 1: In hindsight, she's not, But at.
30:33
Speaker 2: The time, I guess it appeared that way.
30:36
Speaker 1: Well, you have a person who enters a hospital and
30:39
Speaker 1: shoots someone.
30:40
Speaker 2: She did just kill someone, Yes, and they I guess
30:42
Speaker 2: they weren't aware of like the plan and everything right.
30:46
Speaker 1: Well, and even if they are aware of this plan
30:48
Speaker 1: and everything, I mean, what's her mental state in after
30:53
Speaker 1: shooting her own husband. Is she going to be so
30:56
Speaker 1: distraught and is she going to know what she's doing?
30:59
Speaker 1: I mean, she was disoriented, she was in shock. Yeah,
31:03
Speaker 1: there's a potential that, I mean, she may have accidentally
31:06
Speaker 1: even shot one of the nurses coming in, just because
31:08
Speaker 1: she was so scared she didn't trust the nurse staff.
31:11
Speaker 1: If they approached her just wrong, she could have even
31:14
Speaker 1: accidentally pulled the trigger. Okay, so there is a byproduct
31:19
Speaker 1: of what she's doing.
31:20
Speaker 2: This story is just so frustrating because it's like, I
31:23
Speaker 2: don't know, I get you, we know the whole storyline
31:27
Speaker 2: and everything. So it seems so frustrating that like it's
31:31
Speaker 2: come to this.
31:32
Speaker 1: I guess I get you. Thought I'm going to talk
31:34
Speaker 1: about that at the end of the story here, So
31:37
Speaker 1: we're almost there, and we'll break it down a bit
31:39
Speaker 1: in our thoughts. So Ellen also spoke in the courtroom,
31:42
Speaker 1: giving a detailed account of her life, marriage, and the
31:44
Speaker 1: heartbreaking events that led to her husband's death. And as
31:47
Speaker 1: I mentioned, her testimony in court was the primary the
31:52
Speaker 1: primary material that I used for research and writing this.
31:56
Speaker 1: When the prosecutor pressed about how her actions affected others,
32:01
Speaker 1: Ellen responded, quote, I will regret many of my decisions
32:05
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life. In the end, Judge
32:09
Speaker 1: Weston acknowledged that Jerry had been a willing participant in
32:13
Speaker 1: the suicide pact, but she also emphasized that Ellen's decision
32:17
Speaker 1: to bring a gun into a public hospital endangered others,
32:20
Speaker 1: she handed her down the following sentence, she was sentenced
32:25
Speaker 1: to three hundred and sixty six days in prison, twelve
32:29
Speaker 1: years of probation and community service.
32:33
Speaker 2: Okay, that's actually not really that harsh of the of
32:37
Speaker 2: a penalty.
32:37
Speaker 1: Hey yeah, there was one final piece to her sentence.
32:41
Speaker 1: She was also required to write an apology letter to
32:43
Speaker 1: the hospital staff and officers that were affected that day.
32:46
Speaker 2: Okay.
32:49
Speaker 1: With the case officially closed, Ellen was left to serve
32:52
Speaker 1: her sentence and to live a life with the weight
32:55
Speaker 1: of everything that had happened that day. Ellen and Jerry's
32:58
Speaker 1: story is one of very deep love and unbearable suffering
33:03
Speaker 1: and impossible choices, impossible choices that had to be made.
33:08
Speaker 1: For over five decades, they built a life together. They
33:11
Speaker 1: navigated careers, health struggles, personal loss, you name it. But
33:14
Speaker 1: on Jerry's final days, that life became a prison of pain,
33:19
Speaker 1: can became a prison of isolation and hopelessness. He no
33:23
Speaker 1: longer saw a future outside of that hospital bed or
33:25
Speaker 1: those walls, and Ellen could no longer bear to watch
33:28
Speaker 1: him suffer. What happened in that hospital room on January
33:32
Speaker 1: twenty first, twenty twenty three wasn't the act of a
33:35
Speaker 1: violent criminal. It was the desperate decision of a grieving
33:39
Speaker 1: wife who saw no other way out. This case raises
33:43
Speaker 1: difficult and uncomfortable questions. Was Ellen truly guilty of a
33:47
Speaker 1: crime or was she honoring her husband's final wish? Should
33:51
Speaker 1: law round assisted suicide be reconsidered for cases like this?
33:54
Speaker 1: Did the hospital fail Jerry by not presenting hospice or
33:57
Speaker 1: palliative care as an option. No matter where one stands,
34:01
Speaker 1: there's no denying that this was a tragedy for every
34:04
Speaker 1: single person involved, from the staff and the officers caught
34:07
Speaker 1: in the chaos to Ellen, who lost absolutely everything that day.
34:14
Speaker 1: Many debate whether or not if justice truly prevailed in
34:17
Speaker 1: this case, or if the system failed a grieving woman
34:19
Speaker 1: who had already lost it all. In the end, Ellen
34:23
Speaker 1: Gillen will serve her time both in prison and under probation,
34:27
Speaker 1: but the real punishment is something far worse the system
34:30
Speaker 1: could never hand her. She will live out her remaining
34:34
Speaker 1: years without the one person she built her life around.
34:39
Speaker 1: And that is the story of Ellen and Jerry Gillens.
34:43
Speaker 2: That is just shit. Yeah, it is holy heck, there's
34:47
Speaker 2: so much there, so much I think, Okay, so my
34:52
Speaker 2: thought is, Yeah, I guess the fact that it was
34:54
Speaker 2: in the public like a public hospital is not good
34:58
Speaker 2: because I initially was like it wasn't about them. But
35:02
Speaker 2: so if they had done this, say at home, you know,
35:04
Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been like as big of a problem
35:08
Speaker 2: probably or an issue for like so many others.
35:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, most likely, I mean there still would have been
35:14
Speaker 1: like officers and stuff involve because they probably would have
35:16
Speaker 1: been a gunshot report officers arriving that sort.
35:18
Speaker 2: Of well, honestly, if they were If she was at
35:20
Speaker 2: home and had that time to like process and grieve,
35:24
Speaker 2: I bet you anything, like she probably would have carried
35:27
Speaker 2: through with like the pack that they had made.
35:30
Speaker 1: I think potentially it was just.
35:32
Speaker 2: Like after she did it, I feel like it was
35:33
Speaker 2: so chaotic, she didn't have the time she needed to
35:37
Speaker 2: like process like her what her next steps were or
35:42
Speaker 2: I don't know. But also the fact that they I
35:46
Speaker 2: do feel like the hospital failed them big time too.
35:49
Speaker 1: I agree, because she's.
35:51
Speaker 2: Just there for like you said, thirteen fourteen hours a day,
35:56
Speaker 2: fucking just watching her husband deteriorate, and no one like
36:01
Speaker 2: they're not because hospice and stuff is like it can
36:05
Speaker 2: be a beautiful place because he wouldn't have probably been
36:08
Speaker 2: in pain, right, and it's quite a bit of a
36:11
Speaker 2: nicer like environment, and I don't understand why that wasn't
36:17
Speaker 2: was brought up. Yeah, unless there was like no room
36:20
Speaker 2: for him to go there, because I know lots of
36:22
Speaker 2: times hospice they do get full.
36:25
Speaker 1: But even still that should be something discussed. You know,
36:29
Speaker 1: there's people who do like an at home hospice situation.
36:31
Speaker 2: Even well, yeah, and even the hospital themselves I know,
36:35
Speaker 2: can do like they should have at least had him
36:37
Speaker 2: so that he wasn't like in pain. If he was
36:39
Speaker 2: like this was his end of his life, there's ways
36:42
Speaker 2: to make him not suffer really.
36:44
Speaker 1: Exactly, and he was clearly in pain he pushed the
36:47
Speaker 1: gun to his head.
36:51
Speaker 2: But there is also like there is I don't know
36:54
Speaker 2: because we have it here. I don't know if it's
36:56
Speaker 2: like everywhere, but an assisted suicide program yeah, but I
37:00
Speaker 2: know it takes some time and like there's paperwork and
37:03
Speaker 2: shit and which I have to like what's the word
37:07
Speaker 2: you have to apply well, be accepted kind of thing, right,
37:11
Speaker 2: Like I don't think they accept everyone.
37:13
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because you have to apply for it and
37:14
Speaker 1: then you go through it and they determine your situation,
37:17
Speaker 1: and they can turn you away or accept you, which
37:20
Speaker 1: I think is honestly bullshit. Don't get me wrong, I'm
37:24
Speaker 1: not pro suicide, but if someone's going to do it,
37:27
Speaker 1: they're going to fucking do it. And if you decline them,
37:30
Speaker 1: you put them into a situation like this where it
37:33
Speaker 1: now involves other people, whether it's finding them, whether it's
37:36
Speaker 1: you know, in a public space, all those sort of situations.
37:41
Speaker 1: My personal and don't get me wrong, there's probably plenty
37:43
Speaker 1: of holes in this thought process, but my personal perspective
37:48
Speaker 1: on how this should be handled is someone goes to
37:50
Speaker 1: a hospital says I want to commit suicide. The hospital
37:55
Speaker 1: takes them in for I don't know if it say
37:57
Speaker 1: forty eight hours. You stay at the hoste little for
38:00
Speaker 1: forty eight hours, You fill it your little application, You
38:03
Speaker 1: talk to a couple psychiatrists. Okay, they say, okay, if
38:08
Speaker 1: they approve you, which they I think they should. If
38:12
Speaker 1: at the end of those forty eight hours you still
38:13
Speaker 1: want to do it, they approve you and they set
38:15
Speaker 1: a date with you, they say, oh yeah, he.
38:17
Speaker 2: Was of sound mind, still right, it was, and.
38:19
Speaker 1: In his situation, he's like, I'm going to do it today. Okay,
38:22
Speaker 1: this time today, we will assist you. And some people
38:25
Speaker 1: might be like, you know what, I'm not certain. Let's
38:27
Speaker 1: do thirty days from now. Okay, Well you're like not
38:31
Speaker 1: on your fucking deathbed suffering, you can, you know, go
38:36
Speaker 1: back to work and come back and talk to us
38:38
Speaker 1: in thirty days. I think there needs to be a
38:40
Speaker 1: more accepting way to help people. I really do, because,
38:45
Speaker 1: as the judge even said, this isn't about just about
38:48
Speaker 1: Jerry's death. It's about the effect on the public.
38:51
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you decline someone from an assisted death,
38:57
Speaker 1: you are pushing it onto them and the public. That's
39:00
Speaker 1: the system doing that. Dang.
39:04
Speaker 2: Well. I just also like I'm just still processing everything.
39:07
Speaker 2: But like even him having the bed, like you said,
39:11
Speaker 2: he had beds like quite bad bed sores, right, yes,
39:14
Speaker 2: which is it's well I believe it's a lack of care, yes,
39:19
Speaker 2: because well, especially if you're in hospice, they have like
39:23
Speaker 2: I know, there's like different kind of beds that like
39:26
Speaker 2: make it airflow kind of come if you're not very mobile,
39:29
Speaker 2: and then the car aids and stuff are supposed to
39:31
Speaker 2: be moving you quite regularly, like so that you don't
39:34
Speaker 2: get bed sores.
39:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, now it's still possible to happen.
39:38
Speaker 2: It is, it is totally yeah, but it is.
39:42
Speaker 1: It's at least a sign of potential neglect in the hospital.
39:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, because even as you're reading that, at
39:48
Speaker 2: times it seemed it did seem like they were just
39:50
Speaker 2: like there and not getting the care they needed or
39:55
Speaker 2: or the options they needed, and it was just like there,
39:57
Speaker 2: he was just like rotten away in there. Yeah, like
40:00
Speaker 2: he was in like his own little he died like
40:02
Speaker 2: in his own little jail cell. Really essentially like worse
40:05
Speaker 2: than really Yeah, oh gosh, I don't know.
40:10
Speaker 1: So I honestly think that for someone who's seeking to
40:16
Speaker 1: find a different end at their own will, I think
40:20
Speaker 1: there needs to be assistance for that. And I don't
40:23
Speaker 1: think that there is enough assistance for it yet in
40:26
Speaker 1: this world. I think there are better ways to handle it.
40:29
Speaker 1: What I don't know. I can come up with a
40:31
Speaker 1: couple different things off the top of my head, but
40:33
Speaker 1: I guess that I guarantee you there's some holes in
40:34
Speaker 1: that thought process. I clearly am not the one to
40:38
Speaker 1: be making that call, but I think someone somewhere needs
40:41
Speaker 1: to actually figure it out and put it into legislation
40:45
Speaker 1: and help someone like that.
40:48
Speaker 2: They had no idea there was any other options. Really,
40:51
Speaker 2: this is what they thought was the best.
40:53
Speaker 1: Right in a hospital situation like that, Why couldn't Ellen
40:57
Speaker 1: have gone to you know? A doctor had a conversation
41:01
Speaker 1: been like, look, this is our situation. I'm gonna fucking
41:05
Speaker 1: bring a gun, right, And he's like, don't do that.
41:09
Speaker 1: We have medication for it. I mean, you can book
41:13
Speaker 1: and just go put your your pet down. Why can't
41:16
Speaker 1: you book and go do the same sort of thing?
41:19
Speaker 2: Do you hear that? So often people think we treat
41:21
Speaker 2: our pets better than like humans and stuff.
41:26
Speaker 1: So why can't the doctor be like, okay, here, you
41:28
Speaker 1: know what. This is the only thing I can think
41:30
Speaker 1: off the top of my head, So I'm just gonna
41:31
Speaker 1: use it. Here's some cyanide pills. You know what, you
41:33
Speaker 1: and your husband, you know what. We'll bring in another
41:36
Speaker 1: little cot you can lay in beside him, and in
41:39
Speaker 1: an hour you guys will be together forever.
41:43
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but not to necessarily give it to her though,
41:46
Speaker 2: Well right, so.
41:48
Speaker 1: I mean, why why not?
41:53
Speaker 2: Well she isn't really on her deathbed. I don't know, shit,
41:57
Speaker 2: this is so hard. I'm I just here like they
42:00
Speaker 2: had such a beautiful life and it's just such a
42:03
Speaker 2: shitty end to it. Really, it's a terrible end.
42:05
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong. I'm not vouching for Ellen who
42:07
Speaker 1: have taken her life, but that's there's just got to
42:11
Speaker 1: be a line in the sand somewhere for who gets
42:13
Speaker 1: it and who doesn't and how we treat that. And
42:18
Speaker 1: I don't know that. There's got to be a better
42:19
Speaker 1: way to figure it out.
42:21
Speaker 2: I know, I mean, I guess I can understand him
42:24
Speaker 2: getting it. If there if he literally is just going
42:27
Speaker 2: to deteriorate more and more, there's nothing that they can do.
42:31
Speaker 2: But like she wasn't in the hospital, I know her
42:35
Speaker 2: health wasn't great, But like that, I don't I don't
42:39
Speaker 2: necessarily know if I could get behind as easy, I guess.
42:43
Speaker 1: No, I totally understand. And this is a very heavy topic,
42:46
Speaker 1: very heavy topic. I'm aware of that. But who who
42:52
Speaker 1: gets to say? Who does and doesn't get you know,
42:56
Speaker 1: to self delete like that.
42:59
Speaker 2: Well, I know we had had a conversation at one point,
43:03
Speaker 2: and you people do this at home, they commit suicide,
43:07
Speaker 2: people do all the time, and there's there's absolutely no
43:10
Speaker 2: consequences zero. So this is Yeah, this is this is hard.
43:17
Speaker 1: Because who's to say that Ellen isn't going to do
43:20
Speaker 1: something to herself. Still, she's the only one who knows truly. Yeah,
43:25
Speaker 1: so if she says, help me do it or I'm
43:29
Speaker 1: going to do it myself, I think, then you know what, Okay,
43:34
Speaker 1: we'll have a small waiting period and if you're still
43:36
Speaker 1: adamant that you will be doing it yourself, then okay.
43:39
Speaker 2: Because now she has to live with the fact that
43:42
Speaker 2: she like shot her husband. Yeah, I can't imagine that
43:46
Speaker 2: her mental state is great at all here.
43:49
Speaker 1: Not only that she doesn't have to just live the
43:51
Speaker 1: fact that she shot her husband, she has to live
43:54
Speaker 1: with the fact that she told him she was going
43:57
Speaker 1: with him.
43:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's not at all gosh, Yeah, this is
44:03
Speaker 2: this is terrible.
44:06
Speaker 1: So this is Yeah, this conversation at the end here,
44:08
Speaker 1: there's so much hypothetical in it and many things that
44:10
Speaker 1: I mean, I know I've said a couple like strong opinions.
44:15
Speaker 1: My strong opinions are not concrete opinions. There's many things
44:17
Speaker 1: I'm probably not even thinking of. Whether you know how
44:20
Speaker 1: to deal with it or how not to deal with it,
44:22
Speaker 1: why we should or why we shouldn't it's just hypothetical,
44:25
Speaker 1: just kind of conversation, discussing ideas about it. It's a
44:28
Speaker 1: tough topic and if you are seeking, you know, that
44:33
Speaker 1: solution yourself, we do recommend that you get some help.
44:36
Speaker 1: Talk to someone. That is the first step, one hundred percent.
44:40
Speaker 1: That is the first step. Even if it's like hey
44:43
Speaker 1: and Ellen and Jerry, they should have talked to someone first, right.
44:49
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm that's why I'm kind of still thinking
44:51
Speaker 2: like Helen still she still had life to live, she did, right, So.
44:56
Speaker 1: But this falls back to not being able to trust
44:57
Speaker 1: the hospital and then failing the CIS is failing.
45:01
Speaker 2: These people, Oh yeah, it failed them big time.
45:03
Speaker 1: And then because of that failure within the system, Allen
45:06
Speaker 1: is now charged.
45:08
Speaker 2: Damn.
45:09
Speaker 1: So this is a very heavy story and it's a
45:11
Speaker 1: very very fresh one as well.
45:13
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and I can't imagine this is anyway how
45:17
Speaker 2: like her husband didn't want want it to go this
45:19
Speaker 2: way whatsoever?
45:20
Speaker 1: Right, so, no, gosh, but Ellen did she gave up
45:24
Speaker 1: absolutely everything to grant her husband his final wish. And
45:28
Speaker 1: I'll just end it with that. If you guys want
45:30
Speaker 1: to check out our links, our socials, give us your
45:32
Speaker 1: opinion on it. You can shoot us an email, find
45:34
Speaker 1: us Instagram, Facebook. All the stuff is in the description
45:37
Speaker 1: of this podcast. Yeah, let us know your thoughts.
45:40
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we should also say I have to say
45:42
Speaker 2: one more thing is that she wasn't like a cool,
45:44
Speaker 2: bloody killer. No, she wasn't like a bad person. Right.
45:48
Speaker 2: We talk about so many cases where people do take
45:50
Speaker 2: other people's lives and just for the joy and shit
45:53
Speaker 2: shit of it. Right, but she was like literally felt
45:57
Speaker 2: this was right and was trying to help her husband,
46:00
Speaker 2: who you know, I felt like he had no other way.
46:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, she did that with every ounce of good intention,
46:08
Speaker 1: out of love. She did that out of love.
46:13
Speaker 2: Okay, let's send it that.
46:15
Speaker 1: Thank you guys for being here, and we'll see you
46:17
Speaker 1: in the next episode and until then, stay wicked.