Latest / The Path Went Chilly / Rae Ann Mossor Patreon Summer Sampler

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Rae Ann Mossor Patreon Summer Sampler · The Path Went Chilly

0:29
Speaker 1: Welcome to this month's exclusive bonus Patreon minisode for The
0:33
Speaker 1: Pathwent Chili. I'm Robin Warder, and per usual, we're gonna
0:36
Speaker 1: follow our format where I share some details about a
0:38
Speaker 1: case with Jewles and she will give off her live reaction. So, Jules,
0:42
Speaker 1: have you ever heard about the unexplained death of Ray
0:45
Speaker 1: and Mosser?
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Speaker 2: Let me verse before I answer that, say, I love
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Speaker 2: how you introduced us today and you said I'm Robin border.
0:53
Speaker 2: I don't think you've ever said that. It's always just
0:55
Speaker 2: maybe the first time you introduced the Pathwent Chili, but
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Speaker 2: it's just like bringing back to listening to your original
1:01
Speaker 2: Trail When Cold episodes.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just thinking about that, saying, oh, this
1:05
Speaker 1: is I was about to say the Trail Went Cold
1:07
Speaker 1: instead of the Path with Chili. So I must have
1:09
Speaker 1: been in reflex action doing my regular episodes. But yeah,
1:11
Speaker 1: that's probably the first time I've used my full name
1:14
Speaker 1: on one of our episodes.
1:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to answer your question, I do not believe
1:18
Speaker 2: that I've heard of this case.
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Speaker 1: Well, it was featured on the original Unsolved Mysteries as
1:22
Speaker 1: yet another suspicious suicide case, and I decided to tackle
1:26
Speaker 1: this one now because We recently did a series on
1:29
Speaker 1: the death of Patrick Mullins, who supposedly died of a
1:32
Speaker 1: self inflicted gunshot wound from a shotgun. And this is
1:36
Speaker 1: another one where a young woman was killed. They found
1:40
Speaker 1: a shotgun at the scene and it was ruled to
1:42
Speaker 1: be a suicide. Now, obviously, if you remember our series
1:45
Speaker 1: about Patrick Mullins, we were very skeptical that it was
1:47
Speaker 1: a suicide because there was no shotgun found at the scene,
1:50
Speaker 1: there was no evidence he owned a shotgun. And Jules
1:53
Speaker 1: is giving off reaction where she agrees that this one
1:56
Speaker 1: was ridiculous. This one is a bit more ambiguous because
1:59
Speaker 1: we have a bit too here who did have a
2:01
Speaker 1: potential motive for suicide. There was a shotgut found at
2:04
Speaker 1: the scene, but there's been some question about whether it
2:06
Speaker 1: would have been logistically possible for her to shoot herself
2:09
Speaker 1: under these circumstances. I mean, you try to formulate a
2:12
Speaker 1: homicide theory, one really doesn't make much sense. So, out
2:17
Speaker 1: of all the suicide cases featured on UNSAW Mysteries, I
2:19
Speaker 1: think this is one of the more complex ones.
2:22
Speaker 2: Well, I'm really excited, and I hate to say, like
2:25
Speaker 2: these are my favorite type of cases because it makes
2:28
Speaker 2: it sound like it's joyful. But I love a mystery,
2:30
Speaker 2: and I love a layered mystery, especially when it's like
2:35
Speaker 2: that show accident, suicide or murder, when you're trying to
2:38
Speaker 2: figure out what happened, how did this person end up here?
2:42
Speaker 2: And is there some kind of justice that can be
2:45
Speaker 2: derived from this situation? Is there somebody to blame? Or
2:49
Speaker 2: is this a deeper conversation about mental health?
2:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, because a lot of the ones on the original
2:54
Speaker 1: Unsaw Mysteries from the eighties and nineties are ones where
2:57
Speaker 1: the victim's family were so certain that they never would
2:59
Speaker 1: have died by suicide because that was more of a
3:02
Speaker 1: stigma back then, so they were fighting desperately to try
3:06
Speaker 1: to clear their name, so to speak, and try to
3:08
Speaker 1: get a homicide investigation open. And in retrospect, when you
3:11
Speaker 1: look back at some of these stories, it does seem
3:14
Speaker 1: like suicide was the most likely option. But in some
3:16
Speaker 1: cases you're just really not sure, and I think you.
3:19
Speaker 2: Really hit the nail on the head in that, Like
3:21
Speaker 2: when we're looking through the lens of twenty twenty six
3:24
Speaker 2: at a lot of these cases that happened in like
3:26
Speaker 2: the eighties or the nineties or even before that. We're
3:29
Speaker 2: looking at it now with a deeper understanding of mental
3:33
Speaker 2: health and very much an openness and an acceptance that
3:38
Speaker 2: people struggle and sometimes their option that they choose is
3:43
Speaker 2: to end their life, and there isn't the stigma attached
3:47
Speaker 2: that there used to be. It used to be looked
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Speaker 2: at as a quote unquote sin, and I'm sure some
3:51
Speaker 2: people still look at it that way, but I would
3:53
Speaker 2: think that the vast majority of the population would be
3:56
Speaker 2: a lot more understanding and they're not going to look
3:59
Speaker 2: at a family who's lost a loved one who's under
4:02
Speaker 2: their own life and point a finger at them and
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Speaker 2: judge them, Whereas in the eighties and nineties it was
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Speaker 2: a completely different way of viewing suicide. It was not
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Speaker 2: with the compassion and the understanding and the empathy that
4:17
Speaker 2: I believe we have now, and I think gaining that
4:20
Speaker 2: experience and that time it allows you to look at
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Speaker 2: it completely differently. Whereas I can understand where even if
4:27
Speaker 2: the families did indeed believe in their heart of hearts
4:30
Speaker 2: that it was suicide, that they would advocate for more
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Speaker 2: investigation and at least a verdict of undetermined versus suicide,
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Speaker 2: because there's less stigma attached with that.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to talk about this later on, but
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Speaker 1: there's kind of an infamous line that ray Anne Mosser's
4:46
Speaker 1: mother said during her Unsolved Mysteries interview that I think
4:49
Speaker 1: encapsulates the attitude towards suicide at that time. And if
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Speaker 1: this case took place today, it might be looked at
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Speaker 1: in a different light. But I'll say, Ryan or Frump,
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Speaker 1: there's not the same absurd as the Patrick Mullens case
5:01
Speaker 1: where they tried to say that he climbed on a
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Speaker 1: booie in the middle of the ocean with a shotgun
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Speaker 1: and fired a shot into himself and the gun floated away,
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Speaker 1: Because that was one where even the mental health stuff
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Speaker 1: is kind of irrelevant if suicide seems physically impossible.
5:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one of the strangest, wildest cases I've
5:18
Speaker 2: ever heard, Like no blood, no brain matter, no bone,
5:21
Speaker 2: no gun. You're jumping on from wild theory about him
5:25
Speaker 2: climbing onto a buoie, And the point is he could
5:28
Speaker 2: have just ended his own life with the anchor, and
5:31
Speaker 2: then there was the complexities of tying that around him.
5:34
Speaker 2: So it was an unhinged case and law enforcement kept
5:38
Speaker 2: doubling down, and it seemed like there was a pretty
5:40
Speaker 2: good suspect there who was exhibiting very strange behavior. But
5:44
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in this case because it appears that
5:47
Speaker 2: we don't have such a cut and dry case, where
5:51
Speaker 2: like Robin and I were in agreement with the Patrick
5:53
Speaker 2: Mullens case that the most likely outcome was he was murdered,
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Speaker 2: whereas here it's going to be more ambiguous. So I'm
6:01
Speaker 2: interested to see where I end up at the end.
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Speaker 1: Well, this particular case tooks place in the nineteen eighty
6:07
Speaker 1: six and ray Anne Mosser was twenty one years old
6:10
Speaker 1: at the time. She was living in the unincorporated community
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Speaker 1: of Mount Pleasant, Virginia, with her parents, Ronald and Ann Mosser,
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Speaker 1: and she also had two brothers, and at the time
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Speaker 1: she was working as a waitress. But she did have
6:22
Speaker 1: plans for the future. She had recently taken a test
6:24
Speaker 1: to enlist in the Navy and said she was hoping
6:27
Speaker 1: to study radiology. So on the surface, this is similar
6:30
Speaker 1: to a lot of other suicide cases where the victim's
6:33
Speaker 1: family will say they had plans for the future and
6:35
Speaker 1: no warning signs to take their own life. But on
6:38
Speaker 1: the evening of February the fourth, ray Anne decided to
6:41
Speaker 1: travel from Mount Pleasant to the city of Roanoke in
6:44
Speaker 1: order to visit a suburban house where her boyfriend was living.
6:48
Speaker 1: And this is one of the most frustrating parts of
6:50
Speaker 1: the case is that there is so little information out
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Speaker 1: there about the boyfriend. His name has never been released publicly.
6:55
Speaker 1: We don't know anything about his background or what his
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Speaker 1: relationship was like with ray Anne, only that they were
7:01
Speaker 1: estranged at the time and the relationship was not any
7:04
Speaker 1: good place. But the story goes that ray Ann went
7:07
Speaker 1: there to confront him, but shortly before eight pm there
7:11
Speaker 1: was a call to nine one one after a number
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Speaker 1: of witnesses living in this neighborhood heard a shotgun blast,
7:17
Speaker 1: and when the police arrived at the scene, they saw
7:20
Speaker 1: Rayn lying on the ground with a hole in her
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Speaker 1: chest next to her boyfriend's car, and a shotgun was
7:26
Speaker 1: lying on top of the trunk. And strangely enough, Rayne's
7:30
Speaker 1: own car was parked across the street, but the lights
7:33
Speaker 1: were still on, the keys were stilling, the ignition, it
7:36
Speaker 1: was still running, and the radio was still playing, so
7:39
Speaker 1: on the surface, it appeared that she was in the
7:41
Speaker 1: midst of leaving when she suddenly got killed. And I'm
7:46
Speaker 1: sure you'll agree that for most people who decide to
7:48
Speaker 1: take their own lives with a shotgun, they will often
7:51
Speaker 1: put it on the ground, put the barrel up towards
7:53
Speaker 1: their chest or their head or underneath their chin, and
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Speaker 1: fire upwards. But this one was so unusual because she
7:59
Speaker 1: was lying on back with a hole in her chest.
8:01
Speaker 1: But the shotgun was on the trunk of her boyfriend's
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Speaker 1: car with the barrel facing out, which is a very
8:07
Speaker 1: unusual way to take your own life.
8:11
Speaker 2: It sounds odd just from the jump, because you've got
8:14
Speaker 2: all of these strange happenings, like it appears that Rand's
8:18
Speaker 2: leaving because we've got the lights onto their car, the
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Speaker 2: keys are in the ignition, and the shotgun that you
8:24
Speaker 2: said is found on the trunk. And typically when people
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Speaker 2: choose to die in this manner, it's not like something
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Speaker 2: that they choose to do in someone's driveway or like
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Speaker 2: on the way out somewhere. It would be a private
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Speaker 2: act where somebody feels comfortable. Typically, of course there's always outliers,
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Speaker 2: but the setting and the scene it seems really off
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Speaker 2: to me. And another thing, can we just talk about
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Speaker 2: the intersectionality of Mount Pleasant and Roanoke. We've got Mount
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Speaker 2: Pleasant with Mothman and the last quality of Roanoke.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pretty cool. I wondered if you'd pick up
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Speaker 1: on that, because whenever I hear Mount Pleasant, I think
9:00
Speaker 1: in the Mothman case and of course the Lost Colony
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Speaker 1: of Rono. So it's kind of ironic that we have
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Speaker 1: this mystery from the nineteen eighties that has an association
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Speaker 1: with two other very famous mysteries from Virginia. So the
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Speaker 1: narrative which we push forward is that ray Anne may
9:15
Speaker 1: have had a complete mental breakdown and that's why she
9:18
Speaker 1: ended her own life there. The boyfriend was interviewed by police,
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Speaker 1: and he claimed that ray An showed up there because
9:24
Speaker 1: he had not seen her in a while and he
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Speaker 1: apparently wanted to end the relationship. He was not interested
9:28
Speaker 1: in staying with her, and she got very angry about
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Speaker 1: this and yelled out the words, quote, what do I
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Speaker 1: have to do to prove my love to you? Kill myself?
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Speaker 1: End quote. The boyfriend claimed that ray Anne then went outside,
9:40
Speaker 1: he closed the door, and then shortly thereafter he heard
9:43
Speaker 1: a shotgun blast. But he was so frightened he was
9:46
Speaker 1: wondering what Raynn would do that he stayed inside and
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Speaker 1: called the police, called nine one one, and did not
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Speaker 1: re emerge from his house until after the police arrived. Now,
9:55
Speaker 1: in the service, this might seem kind of suspicious, but
9:57
Speaker 1: it's been reported that the boyfriend was living with his
10:00
Speaker 1: brother and the newspaper articles just say another unnamed woman
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Speaker 1: who owned the house they were in, and they were
10:06
Speaker 1: both there that night, and they backed up the boyfriend's story,
10:09
Speaker 1: saying that he never left the house until they heard
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Speaker 1: the shotgun blast, and he stayed in there the entire
10:15
Speaker 1: time until the police arrived. And since there was no
10:18
Speaker 1: apparent evidence of foul play and the boyfriend passed a
10:21
Speaker 1: lie detector test, the police concluded that Rayan likely shot
10:24
Speaker 1: herself and officially ruled her death to be a suicide.
10:29
Speaker 2: Okay, So, as odd as the scene seems, just from
10:33
Speaker 2: the jump, if somebody is emotionally charged, and if they're
10:37
Speaker 2: in the middle of an argument and they're saying something
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Speaker 2: to the effect of, how do I prove my love
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Speaker 2: for you? Kill myself. People who threatened to hurt themselves
10:49
Speaker 2: if somebody leaves them, or if they feel like their
10:52
Speaker 2: relationship isn't going that way. I'm not diagnosing her or anything,
10:55
Speaker 2: but it typically fits in with cluster B disorders. So
10:58
Speaker 2: you're looking at the person orderline personality disorder or antisocial
11:02
Speaker 2: personality disorder, and I'm in no way saying that she's
11:05
Speaker 2: experiencing those, but the rates of suicidality for those who
11:09
Speaker 2: are experiencing a cluster B diagnosis would be a lot higher.
11:14
Speaker 2: So that is a potential. And so if we're looking
11:18
Speaker 2: at this through the lens of Rayanne is acting completely
11:21
Speaker 2: rationally and then just decides to do that, then it's
11:24
Speaker 2: a completely different outcome in our minds. But if we're
11:27
Speaker 2: looking at it going this is very emotionally charged, she
11:30
Speaker 2: might have been very disturbed and then she chose to
11:33
Speaker 2: take an action that she couldn't take back in that moment.
11:37
Speaker 2: It's entirely plausible to me. It of course, seems unlikely
11:41
Speaker 2: until you get all of the information. Potentially she said
11:44
Speaker 2: something like that, it could be a situation where she
11:49
Speaker 2: made a really, really final choice in a moment where
11:54
Speaker 2: her emotions were riding high, and who knows if it
11:58
Speaker 2: was truly her objective or if it was just a
12:01
Speaker 2: reaction to all of the pain in that moment.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, like it could have been a spur of the
12:06
Speaker 1: moment thing where maybe she didn't show up there with
12:09
Speaker 1: the plan to shoot herself, but then just something snapped
12:11
Speaker 1: in her mind. And one thing that I've always had
12:15
Speaker 1: issues with on some of these old UNSAWD mystery segments,
12:17
Speaker 1: if they're covering suicides in which someone died of a
12:20
Speaker 1: self inflicted gunshot wound, more often than not, they won't
12:23
Speaker 1: actually address the fact of where the gun actually came from.
12:26
Speaker 1: And you're thinking, to yourself, Okay, if they did not
12:28
Speaker 1: even own a gun, or there was no gun found
12:30
Speaker 1: at the scene, that's going to look suspicious, like the
12:32
Speaker 1: Patrick Mullens case where there was no evidence that he
12:36
Speaker 1: had ever bought a shotgun. In this particular case, they
12:39
Speaker 1: conveniently didn't mention this information. But when I covered this
12:42
Speaker 1: on the Trail Went Cold a couple years ago, I
12:45
Speaker 1: did some research in the newspaper articles and that's when
12:47
Speaker 1: I finally found out that the shotgun belonged to ray
12:50
Speaker 1: Ann's grandmother. And when I heard that, that was an
12:53
Speaker 1: instant red flag because that means that ray Ann made
12:56
Speaker 1: a conscious choice to bring the gun to the scene
12:58
Speaker 1: for what was supposed to be a con confrontation with
13:00
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and ordinarily you're not going to bring a
13:03
Speaker 1: shotgun with you unless you are in fear of your
13:06
Speaker 1: life and want to protect yourself, or you might be
13:09
Speaker 1: thinking about doing something brash. So when I heard that,
13:12
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, hmm, maybe the fact that she went to
13:14
Speaker 1: the trouble to grab her grandmother's gun and bring it
13:17
Speaker 1: with her shows that she might have been planning to
13:19
Speaker 1: end her own life.
13:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, that tracks for me everything that I've heard so far.
13:26
Speaker 2: I'm leaning towards it had to have been a possibility
13:29
Speaker 2: in her mind. Either you're planning on shooting somebody else potentially,
13:34
Speaker 2: or you're planning on turning that gun on yourself. So
13:37
Speaker 2: if that was a possibility all along, and perhaps in
13:40
Speaker 2: getting into that argument with her boyfriend, it didn't go
13:43
Speaker 2: the way that she'd hoped that it did, and so
13:45
Speaker 2: when she reacted it was like something that she'd planned ahead,
13:49
Speaker 2: but just the way that she did it. It If
13:53
Speaker 2: we're looking at somebody who could have been in a
13:55
Speaker 2: very emotionally disturbed state, she might not have been thinking
13:58
Speaker 2: all that logically and just wanted to would as quickly
14:00
Speaker 2: as possible and didn't think out which scenario would be
14:05
Speaker 2: the easiest, And that's why she carried it out in
14:08
Speaker 2: that manner, because it looks so bizarre when you're looking
14:11
Speaker 2: at all the details.
14:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, like if the case ended there, if it was
14:16
Speaker 1: just a matter of like the gun being found next
14:18
Speaker 1: to her body and you heard about like all this
14:20
Speaker 1: erratic behavior, then you would be more inclined to lean
14:23
Speaker 1: towards suicide. But the big ambiguity in this case is
14:26
Speaker 1: whether or not it would have been physically possible for
14:28
Speaker 1: her to do it in this fashion, because the gun
14:31
Speaker 1: was not found on the ground. It was found on
14:33
Speaker 1: the trunk of her boyfriend's car, like pointing outwards. And
14:37
Speaker 1: I know that when her parents looked at the police reports,
14:41
Speaker 1: they got very suspicious because the distance from the trigger
14:44
Speaker 1: to the muzzle of the gun was thirty six and
14:46
Speaker 1: a half inches and Rayan's arm only measured twenty nine inches.
14:51
Speaker 1: And on unsaw mysteries, they showed her mother and doing
14:53
Speaker 1: a demonstration because her arm was about the same length
14:56
Speaker 1: as their daughters. So she did a test with a
14:59
Speaker 1: broomstick which was around thirty six inches long, and she
15:03
Speaker 1: put it on like a table, tried to reach for
15:05
Speaker 1: the spot where the trigger would have been and said
15:07
Speaker 1: that I can't reach it. My arm is just not
15:09
Speaker 1: long enough. So if Drayanne decided to end her own life,
15:13
Speaker 1: she would have had to have put it on the trunk,
15:15
Speaker 1: reached down while the muzzle was facing towards her chest.
15:18
Speaker 1: And when the mosters performed their test, they said, this
15:21
Speaker 1: is just not physically possible. How could she have done that?
15:24
Speaker 2: Was she wearing shoes?
15:26
Speaker 1: That information is not out there unfortunately.
15:28
Speaker 2: Because if she wasn't wearing shoes, it's possible that she
15:31
Speaker 2: could have pulled it with her toe. I mean, we've
15:33
Speaker 2: all seen those recreations where somebody is like, well, the
15:36
Speaker 2: arms weren't the right length, but let's just see if
15:38
Speaker 2: they could have pulled the trigger with their toe, which
15:41
Speaker 2: it completely falls apart if she's wearing shoes, because you
15:43
Speaker 2: don't shoot yourself and then put back on your shoes.
15:46
Speaker 2: And what time of day did this whole thing transpire? Again?
15:50
Speaker 1: Right before eight pm?
15:52
Speaker 2: Right before eight pm? Do we know if it was
15:54
Speaker 2: light outside or if it was dark?
15:56
Speaker 1: It was probably dark because this was early February.
15:59
Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, likely would have been dark. It just
16:02
Speaker 2: seems really ballsy. If the boyfriend is going to kill
16:05
Speaker 2: her to what, go into her vehicle, take her grandmother's gun,
16:10
Speaker 2: and then do it in the front, like right out
16:13
Speaker 2: front of his house, and then not take the gun
16:16
Speaker 2: or move the gun on top of her, Like if
16:17
Speaker 2: you were going to want to make it look as
16:20
Speaker 2: though she did this to herself, wouldn't you then stage
16:23
Speaker 2: the scene and put the gun like close to her
16:25
Speaker 2: hand so it looked like it fell out of her
16:27
Speaker 2: hand rather than on the trunk.
16:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, that's what's weird about this case is that
16:31
Speaker 1: there are issues with the suicide theory, but when you
16:33
Speaker 1: try to formulate a homicide theory, it really doesn't make
16:36
Speaker 1: a whole lot of sense that he would stage the
16:39
Speaker 1: scene this way. One theory we're going to talk about
16:41
Speaker 1: later on is the possibility that it was an accident,
16:44
Speaker 1: that maybe she might have been struggling over the gun
16:46
Speaker 1: with somebody and it accidentally went off, and the boyfriend,
16:50
Speaker 1: if he was responsible, could have panicked and run into
16:52
Speaker 1: the house and left the gun on the trunk of
16:54
Speaker 1: the car, And because the police did not perform a
16:57
Speaker 1: thorough investigation, this was overlooked. Your point about the shoes,
17:01
Speaker 1: though it has not been mentioned in any sources that
17:03
Speaker 1: she was found barefoot, and if she had been, I
17:05
Speaker 1: think that would have been like a key detail because
17:08
Speaker 1: that and meant it would have been possible for her
17:10
Speaker 1: to use the toe to pull the trigger. But because
17:13
Speaker 1: they didn't mention her being barefoot, that's probably not what happened.
17:18
Speaker 1: So I know that on the night of Rayan's death,
17:20
Speaker 1: the Mosters were told that an autopsy would be performed automatically,
17:24
Speaker 1: even though they did not believe it was a homicide,
17:26
Speaker 1: because that was standard procedures, so they went to the
17:29
Speaker 1: trouble of giving ray Anna proper burial, but after not
17:32
Speaker 1: hearing anything for two weeks, they finally contacted the authorities
17:36
Speaker 1: and learned that no autopsy had actually been done by
17:39
Speaker 1: the Ronoke County Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, doctor David Oxley,
17:44
Speaker 1: so that frustrated them that they automatically thought it was
17:47
Speaker 1: a suicide, but did not bother to look at any
17:49
Speaker 1: other options, so they decided to obtain a court order,
17:53
Speaker 1: and about six months later they finally got Rayan's body
17:57
Speaker 1: exzoomed so that doctor ox Ley cou perform an auto
18:00
Speaker 1: and a private investigator who had been hired by the
18:03
Speaker 1: Masters would be watching over him, and the autopsy revealed
18:07
Speaker 1: that ray Anne was killed by a close contact wound
18:10
Speaker 1: to the chest, which meant that the muzzle of the
18:12
Speaker 1: shotgun was touching your skin when the shot was fired,
18:16
Speaker 1: and on the surface, this seemed to support the master's
18:19
Speaker 1: theory that if the gun was that close to her,
18:21
Speaker 1: that because her arm was twenty nine inches long and
18:24
Speaker 1: the distance from the barrel to the trigger was thirty
18:27
Speaker 1: six inches, that it would have been impossible for her
18:30
Speaker 1: to be able to reach over and pull the trigger
18:33
Speaker 1: and fire the shot into her chest.
18:35
Speaker 2: The accident theory that you brought up is really interesting
18:39
Speaker 2: to me because, like you said, it just doesn't really
18:42
Speaker 2: line up with suicide, because how would she have been
18:46
Speaker 2: able to do it? Like certain elements do line up
18:49
Speaker 2: with it could potentially be suicide, but when you really
18:52
Speaker 2: look at the nuts and bolts of it, it doesn't
18:54
Speaker 2: seem like she It would have been physically possible for
18:56
Speaker 2: her to shoot herself in that manner with her arms
18:59
Speaker 2: being the length that they are, and so then somebody
19:03
Speaker 2: else had to have been involved somehow. If that's the case,
19:06
Speaker 2: and if it was her boyfriend and it truly was
19:08
Speaker 2: an accident, maybe she had the intention of shooting herself
19:12
Speaker 2: and he was trying to stop her, and so in
19:16
Speaker 2: wrestling with the gun, the gun goes off, She's shot,
19:19
Speaker 2: and he literally is so shocked and panic that he
19:22
Speaker 2: just goes inside and probably tries to pretend that it
19:24
Speaker 2: didn't happen. People react very strangely in the midst of trauma,
19:29
Speaker 2: and not everybody reacts the same way, And it could
19:32
Speaker 2: seem irrational to just like walk away and go in
19:34
Speaker 2: the house. But I could very much see a response
19:37
Speaker 2: that would be in line with that if it truly
19:39
Speaker 2: was an accident.
19:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this brings us to our next piece of evidence,
19:42
Speaker 1: which shows that this scenario is possible. Because the Masters
19:45
Speaker 1: wanted to get an outside opinion, so they contacted doctor
19:48
Speaker 1: John Buttz, who was the chief medical examiner for the
19:51
Speaker 1: state of North Carolina, and he disagreed with doctor Roxley's conclusions.
19:55
Speaker 1: He did not believe that the gun was held directly
19:58
Speaker 1: in front of Ryan's chain. He believed that the muzzle
20:01
Speaker 1: was several feet away from Rayan's body when it was
20:04
Speaker 1: fired and created those powder burns, which of course makes
20:07
Speaker 1: it even more unlikely that she could have pulled the
20:09
Speaker 1: trigger because it's a farther distance away from her trigger
20:12
Speaker 1: and much more difficult for her arm to reach it.
20:15
Speaker 1: And he also noticed what appeared to be powder burns
20:18
Speaker 1: found on Rayn's left wrist and in doctor Butts's eyes.
20:22
Speaker 1: This suggested that a wrist was close to the muzzle
20:24
Speaker 1: of the gun when it was discharged, and may have
20:26
Speaker 1: indicated that Rayan was attempting to grab the gun at
20:29
Speaker 1: the time that it went off and it was killed.
20:31
Speaker 1: And doctor Oxley, to his credit, even though he made
20:34
Speaker 1: a mistake not doing an original autopsy right away, he
20:38
Speaker 1: did express regret for that and said that based on
20:41
Speaker 1: doctor Buz's findings, he was going to change the official
20:44
Speaker 1: ruling on Rayn's death from suicide depending WHOA.
20:50
Speaker 2: We pretty much never see that with medical examiners. They
20:54
Speaker 2: can have you can fly in the face of all
20:57
Speaker 2: this new evidence where it seems like their conclusions are
20:59
Speaker 2: completely wrong, and yet they'll never change their findings. So wow,
21:05
Speaker 2: good for him for being able to go okay, like,
21:07
Speaker 2: I didn't necessarily do everything that I could have initially,
21:11
Speaker 2: and even in doing my autopsy, I could be wrong here.
21:14
Speaker 2: So I'm going to amend my findings because it is
21:17
Speaker 2: a big difference to have a gun be a close
21:21
Speaker 2: contact wound and be up close and personal versus a
21:23
Speaker 2: couple feet away. That can be the difference of somebody
21:27
Speaker 2: struggling with it being really close, but be a couple
21:30
Speaker 2: feet away. That seems a lot more intentional. That somebody
21:33
Speaker 2: could have done this to her.
21:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you're hearing about possibly her having a struggle
21:38
Speaker 1: with her boyfriend and the gun accidentally going off, Like
21:41
Speaker 1: that could be a thing where the boyfriend didn't intend
21:44
Speaker 1: on killing her, and maybe it wasn't even his fault
21:46
Speaker 1: that the gun went off. It was just like a
21:48
Speaker 1: freak accident. But the whole experience was so traumatic that
21:51
Speaker 1: he just ran back into the house, left the shotgun
21:54
Speaker 1: on the trunk of the car, and refused to admit
21:57
Speaker 1: any culpability. And I guess it would depend on how
22:00
Speaker 1: much credence you put into the brother and the woman
22:03
Speaker 1: that was residing in the house, because those were his
22:05
Speaker 1: two alibi witnesses who confirmed that he never went outside
22:08
Speaker 1: at any point. But what they would be willing to
22:11
Speaker 1: cover for him even if it was just an accident.
22:15
Speaker 2: It's so hard to tell when it comes down to
22:17
Speaker 2: family dynamics. I'm less inclined to believe somebody that is
22:22
Speaker 2: a relative. But I don't really know how close he
22:26
Speaker 2: was to this other person either, So the closeness of
22:29
Speaker 2: their relationship and the nature of their relationship would let
22:32
Speaker 2: us know a lot more if they would be willing
22:35
Speaker 2: to lie. But we also don't know what type of
22:37
Speaker 2: people they are. Are they people who value integrity? Are they honest?
22:40
Speaker 2: There's so many hidden variables here that it's really difficult
22:43
Speaker 2: to make some kind of value judgment on what they
22:45
Speaker 2: would or they wouldn't do.
22:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the problem is that we know so
22:49
Speaker 1: little about the boyfriend's background, Like maybe his brother would
22:52
Speaker 1: have been close enough to him in order to cover
22:54
Speaker 1: for him. But all we know is that there was
22:56
Speaker 1: a woman who owned the house who was there that night,
22:58
Speaker 1: But we have no idea of their relationship. And would
23:00
Speaker 1: she be willing to cover up for someone that she
23:03
Speaker 1: doesn't even know that well, someone who's only a tenant
23:05
Speaker 1: who's renting a room in their house. That seems a
23:07
Speaker 1: bit more unlikely.
23:09
Speaker 2: And you also have to factor in what is their
23:12
Speaker 2: relationship with law enforcement or their view of law enforcement,
23:15
Speaker 2: Like I'm not saying at all that they're involved in
23:18
Speaker 2: criminal activity. I'm just going to pose a hypothetical like
23:20
Speaker 2: say that somebody in the house is a weed dealer,
23:24
Speaker 2: or that they've been involved in like petty criminal activities
23:27
Speaker 2: and have had bad relationships with law enforcement, or people
23:30
Speaker 2: within their community are very much averse to law enforcement
23:33
Speaker 2: because they believe that they're discriminated against, or you'd be
23:38
Speaker 2: viewed as a quote unquote rat if you were to
23:40
Speaker 2: say anything to the cops, So there would be this
23:42
Speaker 2: expectation that you would stonewall them when they came to
23:46
Speaker 2: ask you questions, that you would go along with who
23:48
Speaker 2: you know and who you care about, and you wouldn't
23:51
Speaker 2: give them any information that would put that person you
23:53
Speaker 2: care about in peril. So there's just so many things
23:56
Speaker 2: we don't know here, and I just wish we knew
23:58
Speaker 2: more about the boyfriend in particular.
24:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, because I've seen some comments online from people
24:04
Speaker 1: who lived in the area and he says, ooh, there
24:06
Speaker 1: are always rumors that the boyfriend was acting as an
24:09
Speaker 1: informant for the police, so they decided to cover for
24:11
Speaker 1: him because he was just too valuable, which is like
24:14
Speaker 1: a theory that we've seen pushed forward and like the
24:16
Speaker 1: Keith Warren case and a number of other ones involving
24:18
Speaker 1: corupt law enforcement. But here we don't have any corroboration.
24:22
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's nothing more than gossip and rumors.
24:24
Speaker 1: So I can't say if I put any credence into it.
24:27
Speaker 2: It's so easy to believe like these little tiny morsels
24:31
Speaker 2: of gossip, but when it's literally all we have, because
24:35
Speaker 2: you're trying to understand how this could happen and how
24:37
Speaker 2: his identity hasn't been put forth, that is really mind
24:40
Speaker 2: boggling to me.
24:42
Speaker 1: Even though the changing of the ruling on Rayan's death
24:45
Speaker 1: was changed, depending it does not sound like the local
24:47
Speaker 1: police wanted to perform much of an investigation because they
24:50
Speaker 1: did not believe it was a homicide. So Ann Mosser
24:53
Speaker 1: actually took the step of asking a Roano County grand
24:57
Speaker 1: jury to convene, even though this is very un common.
25:00
Speaker 1: Like the most common practice for a grand jury is
25:03
Speaker 1: for prosecutors to present them with evidence in order to
25:06
Speaker 1: file charges, but Anne elected to do so as a
25:09
Speaker 1: private citizen and wanted to present all the evidence she had,
25:13
Speaker 1: the findings from doctor Butts and see if they could
25:15
Speaker 1: launch an inquiry into her daughter's death. But unfortunately it
25:19
Speaker 1: was kind of a catch twenty two because Anne was
25:21
Speaker 1: unaware that the grand jury could not officially reclassify Rayan's
25:25
Speaker 1: death as a homicide unless a suspect was named by
25:28
Speaker 1: law enforcement, and because this had not been done, Ann's
25:32
Speaker 1: request for a new inquiry was denied and Donald Caldwell,
25:36
Speaker 1: the Commonwealth Attorney for the City of Roanoke. He also
25:39
Speaker 1: publicly stated that the facts of the case did not
25:41
Speaker 1: support a homicide. So, like I said, it was a
25:43
Speaker 1: catch twenty two where the grand jury's not going to
25:46
Speaker 1: launch a new investigation unless law enforcement reclassifies it as
25:49
Speaker 1: a homicide. But they're not going to get any new
25:52
Speaker 1: evidence unless a homicide investigation is performed, which law enforcement
25:56
Speaker 1: does not want to do.
25:57
Speaker 2: So what was doctor Oxley going to do? Meant his
26:00
Speaker 2: findings to undetermined or homicide.
26:03
Speaker 1: Well, he said that he didn't think there was enough
26:05
Speaker 1: evidence to change it to homicide because he could not
26:08
Speaker 1: rule out the possibility that it was an accidental death.
26:11
Speaker 1: So he was willing to acknowledge that he wasn't so
26:13
Speaker 1: certain it was suicide. But he was technically correct saying
26:17
Speaker 1: that how can you say for certain that ray An
26:19
Speaker 1: maybe did cause the gun to fire off herself or
26:22
Speaker 1: something like that, like maybe she banged the gun on
26:24
Speaker 1: the trunck, it went off, and it accidentally fired a
26:27
Speaker 1: shot into her chest. So that's why he cannot change
26:30
Speaker 1: it to homicide, and that's why the grand jury and
26:32
Speaker 1: law enforcement wouldn't do anything further.
26:36
Speaker 2: My heart is really with Ann Mosser right now, because
26:39
Speaker 2: my god, I can't imagine all the work that she's done,
26:43
Speaker 2: having to get the court order to have her daughter's
26:45
Speaker 2: body exhumed and have that autopsy finally performed, and then
26:50
Speaker 2: bringing in another medical examiner to give a second opinion,
26:55
Speaker 2: and then have those results and mended. She also hires
26:58
Speaker 2: a private investigator, then goes in front of a grand jury,
27:01
Speaker 2: only to find out that the case is essentially in
27:03
Speaker 2: purgatory and that there's really no way to move it
27:06
Speaker 2: forward unless it's acknowledged and reclassified as murder by law
27:10
Speaker 2: enforcement and a subject is presented, which none of these
27:13
Speaker 2: things appear to be happening. So it's unfortunate that she
27:17
Speaker 2: wasn't properly informed of this because I think so much time, energy,
27:22
Speaker 2: and emotion would have gone into this.
27:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is unfortunate because like they said the grand
27:27
Speaker 1: jury would not perform a new inquiry unless someone was
27:30
Speaker 1: named as a suspect. And one thing I find interesting
27:32
Speaker 1: about all of the interviews that the Masters has done
27:35
Speaker 1: is that they have never directly accused anyone of killing
27:38
Speaker 1: ray Anne, because even though she was technically at her
27:41
Speaker 1: boyfriend's house and had gotten into a fight with him,
27:43
Speaker 1: when you see them interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries, they never
27:46
Speaker 1: say anything about the boyfriend. They never accuse them of anything,
27:49
Speaker 1: which is frustrating because if they had good reason to
27:51
Speaker 1: believe that the boyfriend was capable of this, it would
27:55
Speaker 1: have been useful to learn more about his background and
27:58
Speaker 1: learn if he was the type of person would be
28:00
Speaker 1: capable of covering up a death. But I still wonder
28:03
Speaker 1: if it was done for legal reasons where they secretly
28:05
Speaker 1: suspected the boyfriend, but they were not going to go
28:08
Speaker 1: on national TV and accuse him of anything because he
28:11
Speaker 1: had not been named as a suspect or person of interest.
28:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess because we have so little information,
28:17
Speaker 2: there's always other scenarios that are possible, Like imagine that
28:22
Speaker 2: Ryan and her boyfriend are arguing and the brother comes
28:25
Speaker 2: out to intervene. Maybe he's the one that struggles with
28:28
Speaker 2: her and the gun goes off. There's a myriad of
28:30
Speaker 2: possibilities here.
28:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just unfortunate that there were no witnesses
28:34
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood, even though it was the suburbs who
28:37
Speaker 1: actually could confirm if the boyfriend or anyone else from
28:40
Speaker 1: the housement outside, And there was no one who personally
28:42
Speaker 1: witnessed the act of Rayan being killed, So all they
28:45
Speaker 1: can really do is just say, oh, I heard a
28:47
Speaker 1: shotgun blast, but that's it. So the mosters didn't give up.
28:51
Speaker 1: They actually contacted doctor Vincent Demayo, who was one of
28:54
Speaker 1: the most famous forensic pathologists in the United States. He
28:58
Speaker 1: was the chief medical examiner in Bayar County, Texas and
29:01
Speaker 1: worked a number of high profile cases. He's kind of
29:04
Speaker 1: like doctor Cyril Weck, where they both worked until they
29:06
Speaker 1: were very old and have only recently died a couple
29:10
Speaker 1: of years ago. But he concluded that the police's suicide
29:13
Speaker 1: ruling was premature and that there were a number of
29:15
Speaker 1: discrepancies which could not be explained, and he also concurred
29:19
Speaker 1: with the Mosser's theory that it would have been impossible
29:21
Speaker 1: for Rayn to point the shotgun directly at her chest
29:24
Speaker 1: and reach far enough to pull the trigger, and he
29:27
Speaker 1: said that the only way that she could have grabbed
29:29
Speaker 1: the trigger from a standing position is if she rotated
29:32
Speaker 1: her body, but that would have meant that the gun's
29:34
Speaker 1: muzzle would not have been pointed directly at the spot
29:37
Speaker 1: where her wound was. So, like doctor Bucks, doctor DeMaio
29:41
Speaker 1: believed that Rayn may have attempted to grab the muzzle
29:44
Speaker 1: when she was shot, and this is what caused the
29:46
Speaker 1: powder burns on her left wrist. So of course now
29:49
Speaker 1: they have like a report from like one of the
29:52
Speaker 1: top forensic pathologists in the country that this may not
29:54
Speaker 1: have been a suicide. So the Massers sent Demayo's findings
29:58
Speaker 1: to the Commonwealth's Attorney, Donald Cadwell, and requested that he
30:01
Speaker 1: reopen the investigation, but he declined. He said, I don't
30:05
Speaker 1: have the authority to change ray An's official cause of
30:08
Speaker 1: death because my job is only reviewing cases which are
30:12
Speaker 1: sent to him by law enforcement officials in order to
30:14
Speaker 1: decide if charges should be filed, and the masters were
30:17
Speaker 1: not law enforcements, so he couldn't just file charges by
30:21
Speaker 1: evidence presented by a private citizen and Unfortunately, law enforcement
30:25
Speaker 1: was not willing to change the cause of death to homicide,
30:28
Speaker 1: so it was another catch twenty two where nobody could
30:30
Speaker 1: really do anything unless some other agency took this other step.
30:34
Speaker 2: It's really difficult too, because with what we have, it
30:38
Speaker 2: is so difficult without a suspect or without a clear
30:43
Speaker 2: idea of who could have done this, why they would
30:45
Speaker 2: have done this. Like, even if it was a boyfriend,
30:46
Speaker 2: we know nothing about him, nothing really of the nature
30:49
Speaker 2: of their relationship, their history, who he was as a person,
30:52
Speaker 2: So it's so hard for us to make a judgment
30:55
Speaker 2: call on that, And it's hard to say was it
30:58
Speaker 2: an accident. We're they struggling and that's why she was
31:01
Speaker 2: grabbing the muzzle of the gun. Or was it because
31:05
Speaker 2: she didn't want to be shot and she was trying
31:06
Speaker 2: to pry it away from her chest area and got
31:10
Speaker 2: shot in the process. There is multiple different scenarios which
31:13
Speaker 2: could have played out here and very equally in my head,
31:16
Speaker 2: could have an accident, or it could have been murdered.
31:18
Speaker 2: We just don't know enough about this boyfriend for me to.
31:21
Speaker 1: Say exactly, And they really didn't have any evidence to
31:25
Speaker 1: implicate the boyfriend because there were no witnesses who saw
31:27
Speaker 1: him outside the house. He had to alibi witnesses, So
31:30
Speaker 1: I think from the police's perspective, they're thinking, what exactly
31:33
Speaker 1: can we do to change this to a homicide. We
31:36
Speaker 1: just don't have the evidence for it. And the mosters
31:39
Speaker 1: actually wound up taking the extreme step of filing a
31:42
Speaker 1: lawsuit in Roanoke City Court against doctor Harold Oxley, trying
31:46
Speaker 1: to get him to change Rayand's official cause of death
31:49
Speaker 1: to homicide on her death certificates so that a new
31:52
Speaker 1: investigation could be launched. But doctor Oxley said, I can't
31:56
Speaker 1: do that because I cannot rule out the possibility that
31:59
Speaker 1: this was an accidental death. So I just don't have
32:02
Speaker 1: the evidence to change it the homicide. And in the end,
32:05
Speaker 1: a circuit judge dismissed the master's lawsuit, saying that the
32:09
Speaker 1: law did not allow a plaintiff to sue a defendant
32:12
Speaker 1: under these particular circumstances in order to change a death certificate.
32:16
Speaker 1: So not only did they not get what they were
32:18
Speaker 1: hoping for, but they were also ordered to pay like
32:20
Speaker 1: the court costs for both sides, and it pretty much
32:23
Speaker 1: cost them like twenty five thousand dollars to do this.
32:25
Speaker 1: And they accomplished nothing.
32:28
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's bs that they had to pay
32:29
Speaker 2: the court costs for both sides, because I think it
32:32
Speaker 2: was a valiant effort that they made and I think
32:35
Speaker 2: that it was completely valid. But I also understand where
32:38
Speaker 2: the state is coming from here that there just isn't
32:40
Speaker 2: enough evidence with everything that we've heard for them to
32:43
Speaker 2: classify it as a homicide undetermined. Yes, homicide, No, like
32:48
Speaker 2: it very easily could have been an accident. It could
32:51
Speaker 2: have been homicide, but you can't say that with complete certainty.
32:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. The next step for the masters is that they
32:57
Speaker 1: were trying to disprove the idea that it was an
32:59
Speaker 1: act incident, which was a very difficult thing to do.
33:02
Speaker 1: But they hired the services of a retired New York
33:05
Speaker 1: City police detective named R. J. Breglio, who was now
33:09
Speaker 1: working as a firearms consultant, and he would explore the
33:12
Speaker 1: possibility of whether or not Ryan could have been killed
33:14
Speaker 1: when the shotgun accidentally discharged, possibly if she slammed it
33:19
Speaker 1: herself on the trunk of her boyfriend's car and caused
33:22
Speaker 1: it to go off, and on unsolved mysteries. They showed
33:25
Speaker 1: footage of Breglio performing what he described as a butt test,
33:29
Speaker 1: where he would slam the butt of the shotgun against
33:31
Speaker 1: the ground with a barrel pointing up in order to
33:34
Speaker 1: see if it would discharge, and Breglio said that he
33:37
Speaker 1: did this at least forty times. The shotgun did not
33:39
Speaker 1: discharge at any point during these tests, so he thought
33:42
Speaker 1: this was evidence through all out the possibility of an
33:45
Speaker 1: accidental death. But the problem with that is that when
33:47
Speaker 1: you see him performing this test, it's him shoving it
33:50
Speaker 1: down onto the ground, and it doesn't really replicate the
33:54
Speaker 1: exact circumstances of the shotgun being found on the trunk
33:58
Speaker 1: of the gar with the barrel point outwards. So unless
34:01
Speaker 1: he performed a specific test where he shoved the shotgun
34:04
Speaker 1: down unto the trunk with the barrel facing outward and
34:07
Speaker 1: it didn't go off, I don't think this can disprove
34:10
Speaker 1: accidental death.
34:11
Speaker 2: No, that's a completely useless experiment. Unless you're going to
34:15
Speaker 2: replicate the exact conditions which you believe that this could
34:19
Speaker 2: have happened, then it's useless if you're just trying to
34:21
Speaker 2: come up with any scenario where the gun would discharge.
34:24
Speaker 2: I love that it's called the butt test, and you
34:26
Speaker 2: also have the doctor Butts.
34:28
Speaker 1: Yes, I know, I love that. I was wondering you
34:29
Speaker 1: could take up on that. Some great names in this
34:32
Speaker 1: story there really are. That'd be funny if it was
34:35
Speaker 1: doctor Butts who performed the butt test, but unfortunately that
34:37
Speaker 1: didn't happen.
34:39
Speaker 2: I know that would have been great, Like de Breglio
34:41
Speaker 2: and DeMeo. It sounds like almost names that are written
34:45
Speaker 2: for like a true crime story.
34:47
Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, it's hard to believe it's real people.
34:49
Speaker 1: Oxley is another great name as well. Yes, yeah, So
34:53
Speaker 1: after they lawsuit was dismissed, like they technically still couldnot
34:57
Speaker 1: disprove that this was an accidental deest so the sent
35:00
Speaker 1: their findings to the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner
35:03
Speaker 1: for the State of Virginia, and the medical examiner did
35:06
Speaker 1: agree to change the manner of death on her death
35:09
Speaker 1: certificate from homicide too undetermined, which was a big step
35:13
Speaker 1: because I know We've done a lot of work on
35:15
Speaker 1: Keith Warren's case and work with his sister Sherry, and
35:18
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago she did maanage after nearly
35:21
Speaker 1: forty years to change the manner of death on his
35:24
Speaker 1: death certificate from suicide to undetermined, which is not going
35:27
Speaker 1: to solve the case. There's still a long way to go.
35:30
Speaker 1: It has still not been officially reclassified as a homicide,
35:33
Speaker 1: but it's still a big step to like not have
35:35
Speaker 1: them listed officially on the record as a suicide victim.
35:39
Speaker 1: So I think the masters felt the same way, saying that, well,
35:42
Speaker 1: we still can't get them to perform an investigation into
35:44
Speaker 1: our daughter's death. But at least the death certificate now
35:47
Speaker 1: says undetermined rather than suicide.
35:50
Speaker 2: Huge step in the right direction. At least it opens
35:54
Speaker 2: up the possibility that other things could have happened because
35:58
Speaker 2: they were dealing with the stategma of suicide at the time.
36:01
Speaker 2: But I think if you're unsure that it could have
36:04
Speaker 2: been murder, and you're unsure it could have been an accident,
36:06
Speaker 2: why are you so sure that it could have been suicide?
36:09
Speaker 2: Is what I think is a very valid concern that's
36:12
Speaker 2: raised by a lot of families. You're so quick to
36:15
Speaker 2: determine something as suicide, but you're not even willing to
36:18
Speaker 2: entertain the possibility that it could have been something else,
36:21
Speaker 2: or do your due diligence and do that autopsy when
36:24
Speaker 2: it should have been done. Because I feel like six
36:26
Speaker 2: months has gone by are you going to get as
36:29
Speaker 2: accurate of findings as you would have gotten initially.
36:33
Speaker 1: That's kind of the problem is that they really like
36:35
Speaker 1: pretty much took the boyfriend's story at face value and
36:38
Speaker 1: the story from his alibi witnesses, because they never did
36:41
Speaker 1: perform the autopsy and just reached the suicide conclusion. And
36:44
Speaker 1: it would have been interesting if they had done the
36:46
Speaker 1: autopsy right away and discovered the powder burns on ray
36:50
Speaker 1: Ann's risk, or discovered like the discrepancy with her being
36:53
Speaker 1: unable to reach the trigger, and if they had interviewed
36:56
Speaker 1: the boyfriend and confronted him with this information about the
36:59
Speaker 1: powder burns, saying, oh, it looks like she was trying
37:01
Speaker 1: to grab the shotgun for someone and it accidentally went off.
37:04
Speaker 1: Who knows, maybe some more holes would have opened up
37:07
Speaker 1: in his story, maybe he would have shared some discrepancies
37:10
Speaker 1: which caused him to develop into a person of interest
37:12
Speaker 1: or a suspect. But because he was pretty much ruled
37:16
Speaker 1: out and they closed the investigation right away, then this
37:18
Speaker 1: stuff cannot be done.
37:20
Speaker 2: It really makes me wonder if the brother and the
37:24
Speaker 2: owner of the house seemed credible or were there other
37:28
Speaker 2: factors at play. Were they just investigators that were maybe
37:33
Speaker 2: inexperienced with homicide investigations, and they were very quick to
37:36
Speaker 2: just take the word of whomever was there, and in
37:39
Speaker 2: this case, it would have been the boyfriend, the brother,
37:42
Speaker 2: and then the homeowner. And I'm just so frustrated because
37:46
Speaker 2: I feel like this is a case where we have
37:49
Speaker 2: so little information about who the major players are and
37:52
Speaker 2: what their motivations are, what the nature of their relationships are,
37:56
Speaker 2: and how they are with the victim, where they close.
38:00
Speaker 2: And the thing is, we know the boyfriend obviously was
38:03
Speaker 2: but we don't know about the brother on the homeowner
38:05
Speaker 2: and what type of dynamic could have played out here.
38:09
Speaker 2: So I'm eternally frustrated that we have so little information
38:13
Speaker 2: because I would just like to know why the police
38:17
Speaker 2: decided to settle so quickly on suicide when if they
38:21
Speaker 2: would have investigated the forensics even just a little bit,
38:25
Speaker 2: it would have opened up questions and I'm sure they
38:27
Speaker 2: would have landed on undetermined. But I think sometimes you
38:30
Speaker 2: do see police departments quick to classify something that could
38:33
Speaker 2: be slightly mysterious as a suicide because we always talk
38:38
Speaker 2: about juking the stats. That's a closed case if you
38:41
Speaker 2: classify it undetermined. You're never closing.
38:44
Speaker 1: That pretty much. Yeah, Like that's the thing is that
38:47
Speaker 1: it's kind of an in convenient thing where you can
38:48
Speaker 1: leave it open technically, but it's not going to count
38:51
Speaker 1: as an unsolved cold case until you reclassified as homicide,
38:54
Speaker 1: and then that switches the stats because it goes in
38:57
Speaker 1: your favor if it's still classified as unsolved. But even
39:00
Speaker 1: though it was changed undetermined, the mossters still wanted to
39:03
Speaker 1: get the case featured on Unsolved Mysteries because they figured, well,
39:06
Speaker 1: if we give this national exposure, maybe someone will come
39:08
Speaker 1: forward with new information that allows this to be reclassified
39:12
Speaker 1: as a homicide. But this is when Anne Mosters had
39:15
Speaker 1: a rather controversial line during her interview on the show.
39:18
Speaker 1: And we've talked about this a lot. How in recent
39:21
Speaker 1: years there's been like a big push to not use
39:23
Speaker 1: the word committing suicide anymore, instead say completing suicide because
39:28
Speaker 1: committing is often associated with committing a crime, and people
39:31
Speaker 1: don't want to like equate suicide with a crime. So
39:34
Speaker 1: that's why now podcasters and the media and creators no
39:38
Speaker 1: longer use the phrase committing suicide. But when Anne Moster
39:41
Speaker 1: was interviewed on Unsolved Mystery, she said this line quote
39:44
Speaker 1: when our daughter was murdered, she was charged and convicted
39:47
Speaker 1: of a crime she did not do to herself end quote.
39:50
Speaker 1: And I know that's kind of a sign of the times,
39:52
Speaker 1: but I think that kind of rubs people the wrong way,
39:54
Speaker 1: that she's equating suicide with a crime and saying that
39:57
Speaker 1: even if she made the decision to take her own life,
40:00
Speaker 1: it's like being falsely convicted of murder.
40:02
Speaker 2: No, I understand where Anne is coming from, particularly if
40:06
Speaker 2: they are religious, because say that they're Catholic, it could
40:10
Speaker 2: be looked at as a sin, and so it would
40:13
Speaker 2: be looked at akin to committing murder potentially the eyes
40:17
Speaker 2: of the church, especially at the time. I'm not Catholic.
40:19
Speaker 2: I have no idea, but I do know that from
40:23
Speaker 2: their perspective, it is looked at as wrong and a sin.
40:26
Speaker 2: So I don't know what religion they are, if there
40:29
Speaker 2: are any religion, or if they were just feeling the
40:31
Speaker 2: judgment from other people and the condemnation from people around them,
40:36
Speaker 2: thinking that like, she did this to herself and we're
40:38
Speaker 2: going to judge the masters because of it, which I
40:42
Speaker 2: think is very likely. So yes, at the time, I
40:45
Speaker 2: can understand them judging her words as being very harsh,
40:48
Speaker 2: but in retrospect, looking back through our lens of twenty
40:51
Speaker 2: twenty six, I completely empathize with what she was going through.
40:55
Speaker 2: And I think that her words just say that this
40:58
Speaker 2: is the mother who's struggling and she doesn't like her
41:01
Speaker 2: daughter being labeled when we don't have enough information to
41:04
Speaker 2: be able to accurately label her because the investigation wasn't done.
41:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, maybe she would have come to terms with
41:12
Speaker 1: it better if they had done a proper investigation and
41:14
Speaker 1: said that where one hundred percent's heard that the evidence
41:16
Speaker 1: points towards suicide. And I also wonder if their mindset
41:19
Speaker 1: would have been different if it had been ruled as
41:21
Speaker 1: an accidental death right away, because there isn't as much
41:24
Speaker 1: of a stigma for that as there is for suicide.
41:26
Speaker 1: When I covered this on the Trail Went Cold a
41:28
Speaker 1: few years ago, I combined it with another suicide case
41:31
Speaker 1: from Unsolved Mysteries about the death of a seventeen year
41:33
Speaker 1: old boy named Norman Ladner who was shot to death
41:37
Speaker 1: in the woods behind his house with his own hunting rifle.
41:40
Speaker 1: And it was interesting when I reviewed that case how
41:42
Speaker 1: the authorities initially told the parents we believe this is
41:45
Speaker 1: probably an accidental death, that maybe he dropped his hunting
41:47
Speaker 1: rifle and it discharged and the bullet went into him,
41:50
Speaker 1: And at first they were willing to accept that, but
41:53
Speaker 1: then when the medical examiner says, oh, we actually think
41:55
Speaker 1: this might be a suicide and he shot himself, that's
41:58
Speaker 1: when they started like changing their present spective and coming
42:00
Speaker 1: up with all these conspiracy theories about how he was murdered.
42:04
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking to myself, if they had kept it
42:05
Speaker 1: accidental death, they may have accepted it and moved on.
42:08
Speaker 1: But because they changed it to suicide, there's a bigger stigma.
42:12
Speaker 1: So now they have to do everything in their power
42:14
Speaker 1: to try to change that narrative. And that might be
42:16
Speaker 1: the same thing with the Mosters, where or if it
42:18
Speaker 1: had been classified as an accidental death, they would have
42:20
Speaker 1: moved on, But because the first thing they did was
42:23
Speaker 1: classified as suicide, they're now like trying to look at
42:26
Speaker 1: it from a conspiracy perspective and think that she was
42:29
Speaker 1: murdered and there was some sort of cover up.
42:31
Speaker 2: One hundred percent I agree with you. I think that,
42:34
Speaker 2: like when you say undetermined, it means that all possible
42:39
Speaker 2: outcomes are available to you. In your mind. So with
42:43
Speaker 2: whatever resolution you want to get or whatever you want
42:46
Speaker 2: to believe, that is open and you can attach yourself
42:50
Speaker 2: to that theory, Whereas when it's suicide, that is just
42:55
Speaker 2: one option. That is like the thing that you're left
42:57
Speaker 2: to attach yourself to. And if it feels in congru
43:00
Speaker 2: is with what the evidence that has been presented is,
43:04
Speaker 2: then I can see how the families would have a
43:07
Speaker 2: difficulty with that. And I mean even in cases where
43:09
Speaker 2: somebody legitimately did end their own lives and did complete suicide,
43:14
Speaker 2: I think that can be difficult for families, particularly at
43:17
Speaker 2: that time, to accept. So it's just such a nuanced conversation,
43:23
Speaker 2: but I can understand where an undetermined can be a
43:27
Speaker 2: lot easier to accept. If you believe that it's homicide
43:31
Speaker 2: and it's ruled undetermined, that's different because you're really going
43:34
Speaker 2: to be pushing for homicide. But if you truly don't
43:36
Speaker 2: know what happened, it's a much easier thing to land
43:39
Speaker 2: on than suicide.
43:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why I would really like to know
43:44
Speaker 1: more about Rayne's background, because did she ever show any
43:47
Speaker 1: signs of being suicidal? Did she have a history of
43:50
Speaker 1: mental health issues which may have been undiagnosed because it
43:53
Speaker 1: was the nineteen eighties, maybe they just never saw any
43:55
Speaker 1: warning signs. All we really know about ray Anne is
43:58
Speaker 1: that her mother said during the Unsold Mis's interview that
44:00
Speaker 1: my daughter had a temper. So it's very easy to
44:03
Speaker 1: believe that she would get angry and maybe go over
44:05
Speaker 1: to confront her boyfriend and maybe take a shotgun with her,
44:08
Speaker 1: even though that's a major warning sign. And if the
44:10
Speaker 1: boyfriend is telling the truth, then she actually did say
44:13
Speaker 1: what do I have to do to prove my love
44:15
Speaker 1: to you? Kill myself? Then you can't discount the suicide
44:18
Speaker 1: ruling because it sounds like she was in a bad
44:20
Speaker 1: place at that moment. But at the same time, was
44:23
Speaker 1: it physically possible for her to like pull the trigger
44:26
Speaker 1: and shoot herself with the gun on the trunk of
44:29
Speaker 1: her boyfriend's car, Which is why I don't discount the
44:32
Speaker 1: possibility that maybe she did something rash where she slammed
44:35
Speaker 1: it down on the trunk and it accidentally went off
44:37
Speaker 1: and shot her in the chest.
44:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that that is definitely a possibility
44:42
Speaker 2: that so many different things could have played out where
44:45
Speaker 2: that gun could have gone off like it could have
44:47
Speaker 2: been an accident. It might not have been murder, and
44:50
Speaker 2: it might not have been suicide. All things are in
44:53
Speaker 2: play here, but I just I felt like, initially when
44:56
Speaker 2: you told me the first few things, suicide seemed the
44:59
Speaker 2: most likely to me because we knew nothing of the
45:01
Speaker 2: boyfriend and he had the alibi witness in the brother
45:04
Speaker 2: and the owner of the home. But when we look
45:07
Speaker 2: at the fact that she would have needed to have
45:09
Speaker 2: a reach that I think exceeded more than ten inches
45:13
Speaker 2: longer to be able to shoot herself in that manner,
45:16
Speaker 2: it seems to fall apart a little bit. So, just
45:19
Speaker 2: based on what we have, I'm definitely leaning more towards
45:21
Speaker 2: accidental death. And that could have happened any number of ways.
45:25
Speaker 2: She could have been wrestling with the boyfriend, she could
45:28
Speaker 2: have been messing with the gun, and she could have
45:31
Speaker 2: slammed the butt down or whatever, and it could have
45:33
Speaker 2: gone off. It's so hard to really know because we've
45:38
Speaker 2: got so little information here, and the lack of the
45:40
Speaker 2: autopsy'd done right after she died does not help either.
45:45
Speaker 1: It's true, yeah, because the way I look at it,
45:47
Speaker 1: if it was a homicide, then the only person who
45:50
Speaker 1: could be involved is the boyfriend. Or the brother or
45:52
Speaker 1: the woman living in the house, because I think the
45:54
Speaker 1: odds are pretty minuscule that she would show up there
45:57
Speaker 1: make a scene, and that's some other completely unrelated person
46:00
Speaker 1: could come across her car and then shoot her. So
46:03
Speaker 1: I believe likely that actually she caused the gun to
46:06
Speaker 1: accidentally discharge, or the theory you present it is correct
46:09
Speaker 1: that the boyfriend came out, had an argument with her,
46:11
Speaker 1: they were struggling over the gun, and then it accidentally
46:14
Speaker 1: went off and struck her in the chest, and in
46:17
Speaker 1: a panic, the boyfriend put the gun back on the
46:19
Speaker 1: trunk of his car and ran back into the house.
46:22
Speaker 1: They've never mentioned anything about fingerprints. I imagine if the
46:25
Speaker 1: boyfriend's prints were on there, that would have been pretty damning.
46:28
Speaker 1: So I'm guessing there wouldn't be or we would have
46:29
Speaker 1: heard about it. And I'm also guessing that the gun
46:32
Speaker 1: was not white clean of prince because that would look
46:35
Speaker 1: suspicious as well, because it should at least have the
46:37
Speaker 1: prince of ray Anne and her grandmother because that's who
46:40
Speaker 1: it belonged to. And another detail is that like her
46:43
Speaker 1: car was running when that's also a sign that kind
46:46
Speaker 1: of points away from suicide unless she strove there and
46:49
Speaker 1: left the car running when she went into the house.
46:51
Speaker 1: We just don't know if she left it running or
46:54
Speaker 1: did she start the car and was planning to leave
46:56
Speaker 1: before a confrontation took place. Unfortunately, because there are no
46:59
Speaker 1: witness is we just don't have that information.
47:03
Speaker 2: There's so many different ways that she could have come
47:06
Speaker 2: to that house. She could have come with gun in hand,
47:08
Speaker 2: she could have come peacefully. We just don't know, because,
47:11
Speaker 2: like you said, we don't have any eyewitness accounts of
47:14
Speaker 2: exactly how the events transpired. So we're left to come
47:18
Speaker 2: up with theories on our own with very little information,
47:21
Speaker 2: and it's left me incredibly frustrated me too.
47:25
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, when this was featured on Unsolved Mysteries, it
47:28
Speaker 1: did not lead to any new information coming forward to
47:31
Speaker 1: officially change this into a homicide, and tragically and Moss
47:35
Speaker 1: are passed away in twenty fifteen without getting any answers.
47:38
Speaker 1: And it's kind of a recurring theme I find in
47:40
Speaker 1: a lot of these unsawved mystery suicide cases is that
47:43
Speaker 1: there's often not a lot of information available outside the segment,
47:46
Speaker 1: and you're often getting one side of the story from
47:49
Speaker 1: the family, and you don't know if they're trying to
47:51
Speaker 1: craft a specific narrative in order to make it look
47:54
Speaker 1: like it wasn't a suicide. But this is one case
47:56
Speaker 1: where I'm willing to acknowledge that possibility. I actually think
47:59
Speaker 1: that suicide is the least likely, just because of the logistics,
48:02
Speaker 1: even though it sounds like ray Anne might have been
48:04
Speaker 1: capable of it at that moment, But the position of
48:07
Speaker 1: the gun, the fact that she couldn't have reached the trigger,
48:10
Speaker 1: makes me think that the gun probably went off accidentally.
48:13
Speaker 1: But whether someone else was present when it happened is
48:16
Speaker 1: another story, And it's kind of a complicated thing because
48:19
Speaker 1: if the boyfriend was there but he didn't pull the trigger,
48:22
Speaker 1: he just ran into the house and didn't take responsibility
48:25
Speaker 1: for what he did. I don't know if you could
48:26
Speaker 1: technically charge him with murder, Like maybe you can charge
48:29
Speaker 1: him with negligent homicide or perjury or something like that,
48:32
Speaker 1: But it's a complicated legal situation if you don't have
48:35
Speaker 1: any direct evidence to prove that he was there when
48:37
Speaker 1: ray Ane was killed.
48:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you. I'm more inclined to believe that
48:42
Speaker 2: it was an accident. Whether or not the boyfriend was president,
48:44
Speaker 2: I have no idea, but there's still the possibility that
48:48
Speaker 2: it was homicide, but it seems less likely to me.
48:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like the Patrick Mullen's case, where they
48:54
Speaker 1: presented another alternate suspect named Damon Crestwood who was displaying
48:59
Speaker 1: very bizarre Buthay favier after Patrick died, and you were
49:01
Speaker 1: thinking yourself, Yeah, it sounds like he could have been
49:03
Speaker 1: involved in his murder because of the way he was acting.
49:06
Speaker 1: But here we don't have that. We have no information
49:08
Speaker 1: about the boyfriend and how he was acting following Rayann's death,
49:11
Speaker 1: and like I said, nothing about his background. So until
49:14
Speaker 1: that information comes out, I can't really come up with
49:16
Speaker 1: a conclusive solution about this case, a conclusive theory, but
49:20
Speaker 1: I am inclined to believe it's accident. I'm just on
49:22
Speaker 1: the fence whether it was just Rayn herself or if
49:25
Speaker 1: there was another person present when she was killed. So
49:28
Speaker 1: any further thoughts on the death of ray Anne Mosser.
49:32
Speaker 2: Just that I'm really frustrated because I want to know
49:34
Speaker 2: who the boyfriend is. I want to know more about
49:37
Speaker 2: their relationship. I want to know about the brother and
49:40
Speaker 2: the person that owns this home and all of the
49:42
Speaker 2: complexities there and we have like zero information. So yeah,
49:48
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry for the Mossters. That really breaks my
49:52
Speaker 2: heart because they went to the ends of the earth
49:54
Speaker 2: to try to have this reclassified and figure out what
49:57
Speaker 2: happened to their daughter, and I feel like the system
50:00
Speaker 2: did them wrong, especially when they made them incur the
50:03
Speaker 2: core cause of the state as well.
50:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, that's a recurring thing we find in
50:08
Speaker 1: a lot of these unexplained death cases where even if
50:11
Speaker 1: it was a suicide or an accident all along, because
50:14
Speaker 1: the original investigation was inadequate, that makes it impossible to
50:18
Speaker 1: know for sure. And I can understand why the victims
50:20
Speaker 1: loved ones would have a hard time dealing with that.
50:22
Speaker 1: So that about brings an end to this month's Patreon
50:25
Speaker 1: minisode about the death of ray Anne Mosser. Thank you
50:28
Speaker 1: so much for your continued support, and we will return
50:30
Speaker 1: next month with another exclusive minisodes, So until then, everyone
50:34
Speaker 1: have yourself a great month.