Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 377: Jedi Book Club: Darth Plagueis

Transcript

Issue 377: Jedi Book Club: Darth Plagueis · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Palty.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Hi.
• 0:06
  Speaker 3: This is Nick and Ostasu, story editor on Star Wars,
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: are listening to aggressive negotiations.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to aggressive negotiations. I'm just one of
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: your hosts here, Matthew Rushing, coming at you from a
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  Speaker 2: very secret and sensitive location that could not be revealed
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: to you unless you were part of the two.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: And I am just one of the two.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: And with me is the other one of the two,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Jedi Master John Mills.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: How are you doing, John, I'm confused as to where
• 0:48
  Speaker 4: I am precisely. I am in a mountain, maybe somewhere
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: in a hunting preserve with top secret banking people. And
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: I think this is sort of like a remake of
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: the Deadliest Game, but possibly not, because I got a
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: whole lot of lightsabers and a whole lot of people
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: with problems with me, and I don't know what I did,
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: but they're all mad at me, and I don't know why.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: No, this is more like one of those secret society
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: meetings of Skull and Bones or with all of our
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: secret rituals and you know, things that we can't talk about.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: But before we dive into our episode this week as
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  Speaker 2: following at the party as well, and see all the
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: different shows that are coming out there. But John, we
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: had promised everybody that we were going to talk about
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Darth Plagis the Legends book by James Luceno, and we're
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: doing that here to celebrate Halloween. And first I just
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: want to ask you. Did you read this book when
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: it originally dropped. I believe the date it dropped was
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: in twenty twelve or twenty eleven.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly which one, but.
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure you're right it was twenty twelve. I
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: believe it was near the change of ownership. I was
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: excited to read it because of course, anything dealing with
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: the Sith is always going to be somewhat fascinating at
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: the very least. But did you read it at the time, Like,
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: was this a hardcover you got the day it came out?
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: Did you pre order this thing? Was this something you
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: were really chomping at the bit for or did you
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: have and I'll tip my hand here, like myself a
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: small amount of trepidation about this book.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: This was definitely a book that I read when it
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: came out. I did own a copy of it, and
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: in a move that I made a long time ago,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: which was apparently a terrible move, I sold a bunch
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: of my Star Wars books because I had, you know,
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: through I think the fate of the Jedi series. So
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: like I had all of these books and all of
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: my various moves. About fifteen years ago, I was downsizing
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I AM books and I got rid of this one unfortunately.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Which the reason that's unfortunate right now is because the
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: original hardcovers for this book are going anywhere from seventy
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: to one hundred and fifty dollars on eBay. And so yes,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I did read this when it originally came out. It
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: was very excited for this book. The idea that we
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: were going to learn about Darth Plague, the whys and
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: the story behind him, and then the rise of Sidius
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: as well, was just I mean, I couldn't think honestly
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: of a better idea personally.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: And so you said you were trepidacious. What made you
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: kind of trepidacious coming into this.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: Well, this is where I get hate mail at this point.
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: I don't think I've ever really made it a secret though,
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: is that I always enjoyed the fact that in two
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: thousand and five there was a question as to whether
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: Palpatine was just making up a story to string Anakin
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: along because he knew it's the one thing Anakin wanted
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: to hear, or whether he was telling the truth. And
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: I thought that it was really interesting in the movie
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: to sit there and it was like a ror shark test,
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: because there's of course the Kaiser Soose approach to everything
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: from the usual suspects that the best lie is wrapped
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: in the truth. But then there's also the idea that
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Palpatine is essentially the corporeal equi prevalent of the Star
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: Wars Satan at that point, and so of course he's
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: going to have a story right up his sleeve that
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: is exactly what our hero needs to hear to bring
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: him along. So for me, it was always a fun
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: sort of debate as to whether darth Plagus was actually
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: his master, whether Darth Plagas actually ever truly existed, or
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: if it was a story from years and years past
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: sort of thing. None of that really comes into play
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: in terms of whether I'm going to read the book
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: back in twenty twelve, because that's my trepidation about it.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: But basically it meant that I was going into the
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: book with a very exacting attitude where if it didn't
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: knock my socks off, it was going to be a
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: book I would ignore, and if I didn't really enjoy
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: what it laid out, it was going to be a
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: book where I, like, I have always had this approach
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: to the expanded Universe stuff to say, if I don't
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: like it, I'm ignoring it. I think Feloni said something
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: about that recently, about how fans can approach quote unquote canon,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: where he's like, well, if they don't like it, they
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: just pretend it doesn't exist. And I'm like, yeah, that's
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: sort of been my superpower sort of thing. But you
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: were excited to go into it. So I'm guessing that's
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: just I mean, is that simply because you were always
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: itching just you had to know the details about Darth
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: Plagis you just always took Palpatine at his word, and
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: you were like, I'm just you know, I really want
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: to know how these two came together and how it
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: moved forward, Like was it just a spark from the
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: minute you heard about the project you were like, yes,
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: this is the book I've been looking for.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that for me, this was more
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: of one of those things where I was just excited
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: to learn more behind the scenes. And I think, you know,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to understand, you know, how uh sidious became sidious,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: you know, how Palpatine got you know, roped into the
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Sith you know, uh and that then the backstory too
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: of Plagus. And I think the most interesting part about.
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: This was.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: The way in which it would tell the story then
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: about that whole question you know of you know, bringing
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: people back to life, you know, saving people from dying,
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: and you know, I think, uh, if that was really
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: a true thing, and so you know, I hate to
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: spoil it for everybody, but I think one of the
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: geniuses here of Luceno's book is the way in which
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: he is able to craft this story and actually show
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, we keep talking about in the
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: book this idea, the Grand Plan, which uh Plagas very
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: much realizes that the grand plan of the Sith for
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the you know millennia, that they have been quote unquote
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: extinct at least that's what the rest of the galaxy
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: really thinks. That they have been working on this grand
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: plan to destroy the Jedi, to to bring down the Republic,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: and the idea that Plagas believes he is close to
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: this and in finding Sidious, he believes he found finds
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: the perfect person to bring to fruition. This this you
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: know millennia long plan is just I think phenomenal. Uh
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: And and so to me, I think that's the thing
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  Speaker 2: that really is is just so fascinating in reading this book,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: and I think, uh, I mean, I I rereading this book,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I was just a completely astounded as to how good
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: it is and just even just that one focus of
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: like bringing the Grand Plan to fruition, Like, but that's
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: not the only place I think that this book is astounding.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: Well tying into what you're talking about what I was
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: reminded of reading it. Rereading it, I should say, is
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: that when it came out, I loved the fact that
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: it explains why the rule of two was basically the
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: hypocrisy of the sith, that the rule of two was
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: never really adhere to with true devotion, because that's always
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: been the question of, oh, well, how could Palpatine be
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: going after Luke and Vader's going after Luke? And then
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: we find out there are secret apprentices, and then the
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: inquisitors are set up, and how does that violate the
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: rule of two? And we've gone back and forth with
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: the on screen stuff, and that's still the on screen stuff.
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: But Luseno in this book, I enjoy the fact that
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  Speaker 4: he sets up it feels very authentic that the rule
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: of two was followed as a matter of convenience by
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: some and true devotion by others, and so it was
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: a rule, but not a dogmatic rule, as Palpatine might say.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, they were like guidelines.
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, basically, yeah, you know. But it's I enjoy the
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: fact that Luceno very carefully frames it as Plagis's pride
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: makes him see that he is destined to be the
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: one to bring it forward, because what Luceno is doing
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: here is he's planting the idea that, of course Palpatine
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: becomes the one to think that he's going to be
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: the one to live forever, that he's going to be
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: the one to figure out and crack the code because
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: his teacher instilled that very thought in him. That we're
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: the ones, Plagas says to Sidious at one point, we're
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: the ones that are paraphrasing here. This is not exact dialogue, obviously,
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: but he basically says to Sidious, we're the ones that
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: are going to live forever. There are no two after us.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: We're it because Citias says, the sith that come after
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: us will talk about you, and Plagas basically says, what
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: are you talking about after us? Oh no, we're it.
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: We win. We're going to go on forever. And what's amazing,
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: and this is the most boneheaded thing. This exhibits what
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: the most bone bone headed thing about just throwing out
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: the expanded universe on the whole was for Disney is
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: that in this book book is the very explanation that
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: makes Palpatine's quest for immortality in the sequel trilogy actually
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: make more story sense in the context of the films,
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: because you see throughout this book that he's been trained
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: to specifically seek this stuff and figure it the f out.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: So throwing this book out and not taking this book
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: and making it the Acolyte is a tremendous misstep on
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: Disney's part.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm glad that you mentioned that, because
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: the one thought that kept running through my mind as we,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: you know, read through it is this idea, why is
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: this not just the story of the Acolyte, Like, why
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: aren't we you know, why aren't we calling Palpatine the Acolyte?
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: You know, because because, like you said, this legitimizes you know,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of what they end up doing in the
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: sequel trilogy, especially in the final film, because this is
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: exactly the thread that then when you look at what
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: they did in the Bad Batch, what they've done in
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: the Mandalorian, like all of the things then play together
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: and and so to then utilize I think Plagis in
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: such a terrible way.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: In that show makes no sense.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Now, the idea that you know, he had a maybe
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: a previous apprentice or somebody he's interested in, that's fine
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: or whatever, But it's like even even with the Acolyte,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: you could still do this right. You can still through
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: your story and you should because, like you said, this
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: story makes that all makes sense. And on top of that,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: you know, there's actually a whole section there in the
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: book where Plagas is talking to Sidious and he's talking
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: about the ways of the Scyth, and these are some
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: quotes that just really stood out to me. He said,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: you were brought into being to lead. Therefore you must
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: see every living thing as nothing more than a tool
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: to elevate you, to move you to your destined place.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: This is our galaxy, Sidious, our reality. And then he says,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: the actions of the Sith begin from the self and
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: flow outward. We stalk the force like hunters, rather than
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: surrender like prey to in its enigmatic wills. And it's
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: like those two quotes right there show everything that was
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: wrong with the Acolyte and its idea of pursuing the
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: dark side and what it really meant to be a Sith.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: You're not some sort of victim.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Where oh boohoo.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: You know, the dark side is all about taking power
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: for yourself. It's all about never feeling sorry for yourself
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: and taking what you deserve right, and that's the very
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: thing that that show never got, And this is the
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: very thing that this book does such a great job on.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: And as I'm.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Reading through it and just everything that Lucenno lays out
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: here and what it means to be the Syth, I mean,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: it's astounding the understanding that he has of what makes
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: the Sith tick.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: It's phenomenal.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: Well. Additionally, and this could still work within the context
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: of The Acolyte, where you wind up that shot of
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: Plagis peeking out from the rocks, is him finding an
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: impostor who stumbled across some Sith lore or something and
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: triggers something in the Force. And then you could have
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: a season two where Citius I'm sorry, not Citius, where
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: Plagus reveals himself and says, oh no, oh no, you
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: are risking my plan. I'm killing you now. Like you
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: could easily see that being in a season two and
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: would actually work pretty darn well to your point about
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: Luceno understanding everything. Additionally, the angle is the idea that
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: the Sith are not agents of the dark Side. The
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: Syth view even creation itself as their tool, and the
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: Force itself is their tool. Through this entire book, Plagis
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: is sitting there saying, you know, the Mediclorians, they're scamps,
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: they got a will of their own, but you know
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: you can figure it out. You can bend them to
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: your will too. It's that whole idea. It is the
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: exact antithesis of what Qui Gon espouses in The Phantom Menace,
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: where you understand that the Jedi understand the Mediclorians are
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: communicating the will of the Force, and so they understand
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: that they must listen to what the Mediclorians are telling them,
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: whereas the Sith are all about first petitioning the Force
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: through the Mediclorians and then using the Medicalorians to force
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: the force. Force the force. There's a tongue twister to
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: force the force to do what they wish. And it's
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: this arrogance, it's a literally demonic arrogance that makes this
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: this book actually makes the syth more fascinating because of
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: the fact that even among the true believers like Tenebris,
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: there's a blind spot. But you understand that there's a
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: distinction even among evil factions. And that is why the
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: rule of two should never be discarded, because you see
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: immediately with Plagas's differences from Tenebris that by not adhering
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: to this strict rule of two, you're immediately setting yourself
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: up for the fall and for disaster from you know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: the point of view of everything. So I mean, what
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: I want to ask you is, when you see Plagas
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: here in the book and he's espousing his stuff, do
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: you think Plagas could have been the one to seduce
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: Anakin or do you think Plagas is only able to
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: seduce somebody like Palpatine, who's already something of a bastard
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: by the time he meets him.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I think that.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Plagas pre his injury could possibly have done so. But
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I think that by the time time he is injured
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: to the point where he has to have the breathing
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: apparatus and everything, he becomes so secluded and kind of
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: lost in his own work, with you know, jerry mandering
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: the mini Chlorians to bend to his will, that I
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: think he kind of loses the ability to one read
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: people the way he used to be able to, because
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: you know, he he never sinses Sidious's dissent against him
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: and plan against him, and he never even contemplates at
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: that point the fact that he could be betrayed, and
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: I think he also just loses a piece of himself
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: where I mean, you know, at the beginning of the book,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: we see him being able to you know, smooth things
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: over in conversation, to be the silver tongued person, to
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: be able to talk people into things, and you know,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: throw his weight around in a way that lets him
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: get what he wants. But then as we introduce Sidius,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: of course, and we already know he's going to be
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: like this, but to watch his maturation into the character
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: that he becomes and the way in which he is
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the master manipulator more so than anybody else, you know,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And in fact, I think that's one of the beauties
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: that you know, we see Plagas realize that Sidious has
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: a knack for politics in a way that even he doesn't,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: and so I feel like he realizes that, yes, you know,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: his plan is that they're both going to rule together
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: in the end, but he can't do and he doesn't
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: have the gifts to do what Citius is doing. So
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: that's a roundabout way to answer the question is no,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't think he could have seduced Anakin
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: the way that that Sidius was able to because I
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: don't think he necessarily just has that innate ability in himself,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: which is to tell people exactly what they need to
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: hear the way they need to hear it to get
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: them on their side his side. I do think that,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: you know, he's able to tap into that insidious because
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: you know, like you said, Palpatine at that point is
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: already a little turd, you know, and so uh and
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: and and he is able to just take that and
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: polish it into something, you know, even worse. Uh and
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: so that yeah, that's that's a great question though, And
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: and it really does show too, you know, it seems
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: like as we look at the history of the Sith
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: throughout this book too, we kind of see that many
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: masters end up kind of picking a student who ends
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: up maybe intentionally unintentionally being better than them in the
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: places where they're deficient, which is also really interesting.
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: Well, there's really a what's very neat about this book
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: is at the time I had not read I think
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: I think the first two Darth Baine books had come
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: out by this point, but not the third, or maybe
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: all three had I can't recall, because way back when
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: I only read the first two and I walked away.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: But I recently returned to the Darth Baine series and
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: I read all three and I enjoyed them much more
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: this time than I did way back when I was
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: pretty burned out on expanded universe stuff. Everybody knows this
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: story by this point, But what's fascinating about this book
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: is seeing the effort and the research and the collaboration
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: among the authors that played in this universe. Is really
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: fascinating because at the time I was able to read
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: this book and enjoy references and say, okay, all right, right,
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: I know who they're talking about there. Oh I know, no,
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: I know that story. You know, you can sort of
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: like dip in and out in terms of the references
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: and everything. But having read all three Darth Baine books
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: by this point and then reading this book hard on
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: its heels, it's pretty interesting because you read through it
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: and you say, wow, Lucena was in no way obligated
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: to make the sly references that he does, but the
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: ones that he does that tie into Baine and Roussan
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: and all of the stuff that happened then is legitimately
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: interesting and does enrich the work because if you know
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: the other works, and you come in to it you
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: do get a little bit of a thrill about it.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: But I can attest that back when I read this,
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: not knowing all the stuff he was referring to, it
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: still worked. So I think it's even another lesson in
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: when you have a really strong author working in the
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: intellectual property, they know how to weave this stuff in
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: the way you should weave in references so that they
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: don't bonk you over the head. I could go to
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: different works that have come out in Star Wars and
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: the Disney era that their references hit you over the head,
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: whereas these don't hit you over the head. The story
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: works regardless, and the reference is actually enrich. I won't
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: get specific because I don't want to. I don't want
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: to kick that hornet's nest overall. But I know you
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: have not read the Darth Bayine books, but I'm presuming
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: you didn't feel that you were missing anything with the
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: references that he made. No.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I mean I I picked up that he was utilizing
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: references from those books, and I mean, in all honesty,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: he's he's pulling references to many of the other, uh,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: you know, works that have happened throughout the history of
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: the EU at that point. Uh. And so, I mean
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's pretty astounding again the work that he
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: puts in. Uh. In fact, the only author that I
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: can think of that that really pulls together this type
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: of material like this, I think John Jackson Miller is
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: actually really good at this type of thing. He does
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: it in his Star Trek books and his Star Wars
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: books and uh.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: There's a there's another author who's a Star Trek author,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Christopher L. Bennett, who's also very good at pulling in
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: the tiny bits of my new from just about every
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: form of Star Trek that you know that fits. So yeah,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, Luceno though, is a master here at this
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: and really knows his stuff. And so, but you know,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: one of the things I actually thought was one of
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: the smartest parts of this story is the way in
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: which you know, this is clearly the you know, the
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: fall of the Republic is the fall of Rome being retold,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: and the way in which we see you know, Palpatine
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: and Plaguis working towards the downfall of their public with
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: the seduction of those in power, slowly integrating you know,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Sith rituals into these clandestine parties. You know, the decadence
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: and and the the utter debauchery that they are also
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: encouraging in these type of places, the selfishness that they
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: are subtly and and and manipulatively working into every single
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: facet of the Republic, you know, from the creation and
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: the bolstering of the Trade Federation, uh, to all of
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: these other different factions to which lead to all of
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the problems we see in the Phantom Menace. I mean,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: this is an absolute masterclass in in in the way
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: in which you know, when we think about the prequel
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: era and you know what George is doing in the
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: story that he's telling, right, we all know it's about
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: the fall of the Republic. Well too, lay out the
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: plan here that Lucino does through these two characters, of
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: this grand plan of destroying the Jedi, destroying the Republic,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: and utilizing not just the Star Wars universe, but the
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: actual historical reference that you know is being used. I
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: think all of that is pretty astounding work. And you know,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: sadly the book feels very timely.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: Well, okay, this is this is where this is very
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: third rail type of stuff, because there is uh it's
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: dangerous to talk about the different conspiracy theories that people have,
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: and because even talking about them very much can make
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: you sound like you're you either believe them or you're
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: pur pooing them or anything like that. So just everybody
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: take everything what I'm saying just at face value. I'm
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: not coming down on any side of anything, but a
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: lot of the stuff that he's describing feels a lot
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: like what people say about the World Economic Forum, you know,
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: which has its annual meetings in Davos, or It feels
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: a lot, honestly, And I mean this as a compliment,
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: especially because the recut version of the film The Godfather Coda,
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: the death of Michael Corleone, the whole thing about International
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: and Moobi are back in nineteen ninety we were like, oh,
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: that's crazy. Ha ha ha ha. I watched The Godfather
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: Coda now and I'm like, oh, yeah, cob all of
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: evil businessmen and Michael Corleone realizes that they're no different
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: than the mob. They just have the law on their side.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: This time Yeap checks out, checks out like it literally
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: is one of those things where what he's describing to
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: your point about being timely, Oh, there's a secret cadre
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: of ultra wealthy people who believe that they have the
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: right to rule over everyone and they're going to decide
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: blah blah blah and all of those sorts of things.
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: I think, regardless of sight, on the political aisle, you
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: will find a whole lot of people on both sides saying, well, yeah,
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: of course, they just disagree about who's in the club.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: Whereas what I think is brilliant about Luceno and some
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: of the other things that he has in there is
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: what is basically put forward is oh, no, you know what,
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: to borrow a line from George Carlin, it's a big
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: club and you ain't in it. You basically learn that
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: Darth Plagus and the Sith over time have been cultivating
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: this elite club, and everybody's in it, including the people
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: you think are the good guys, are in.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: It, and it's it's yeah, you know, well, and the
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: only people who aren't in it are the Jedi. And
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: the problem with them is that they are so beholden
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: to holding up the Republic and doing the Republic's bidding,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: and so the viting of the force, they've lost sight.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: In fact, there's even a contemplation in there about if
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: you know, the Jedi had chosen not to be on
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: a world so busy and so.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Full of teeming.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Ideologies banning back and forth, if they had would have
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: done better to have, you know, the the Jedi Temple
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: somewhere else, which we've talked about many times, you know,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: here on the show, and of course is really brought
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: to light here because yes, they are just caught in
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: the middle, and it's a terrible place to be for
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: them because they are losing, and what's happening is that
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: there are people that are seeing it. And this is
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: a brilliant storyline, is the seduction of Dooku, because Douku
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: clearly sees the Jedi being in the wrong here, as
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: did Qui Gone Qui Gon though looks towards a savior,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: and Doku looks towards pessimism, falls into that trap of
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: then the dark side because of it, and oh my gosh,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: just brilliant writing in that story to finally give us
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: how Douku fits into this master plan.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Even finding out because you know, we were talking about
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: could Plagas have seduced Anakin, No, but he can seduce
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: Douku Douku's got the years on him and the cynicism
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: on him, and even seeing like I look at this
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: and I would give this work at this point to
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: the animation division that gave us Tales of the Jedi
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: and Tales of the Empire. I could see this series.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: I like, I saw that scene where plagis in his
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: role as he go damasque is talking to Doku and
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Siphodas and quiet. I saw it in my head as
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: an animated scene. Yeah, I didn't see live actors. I
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: saw it, and I think even the way he described
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: the scene and even Doku's beard coming to a point,
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh, I see Douku in the Clone
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: Wars here, I see that version of these characters there,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: and I just I know, I'm sort of like going
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: off the rails here. But what is what is great
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: about Luceno And we have heaped praise on the Jedi
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: Apprentice series for this, but I treasure Qui Gon as
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: a character, and he gets Qui Gon's voice in that scene.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: I hear Qui Gon saying those lines. I don't say, oh,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: that's you know, that's just lines spoken by Qui Gon.
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: I hear Liam Neeson saying these things very very directly,
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: very bluntly, and I think this even contributes to it.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: I don't hear Christopher Lee necessarily. I hear clone wars
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: Dooku voice talking to Plagas in that moment, and it
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: is obviously it's a very key moment for me because
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: you can see everything come together. And what I love
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: about it is that you see Sidious as being brilliant
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: because when he takes his chance to ascend, he doesn't
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: throw everything away. He says, Okay, like all of the
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: Sith before, Plagis or Tenebris or anybody else, you teed
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: me up. Now I'm going to take it forward, and
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: I'm going to be the great one, and I'm going
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: to be the winner, and I'm going to get everything done.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: That core selfishness of evil that is, you know, no
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: matter how much you say it's about the grand plan,
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: it's about you. It's about you wanting to win, and
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: everything that came beforehand is about you, which again speaks
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: perfectly to why a Sith would be wonderful in politics,
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: because it's not really about the grand plan or the
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: greater good or the accomplishment of anything. It's about how
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: all of those things benefit you specifically.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that one of the genius the parts
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: of the story is the way in which.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: You have.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: This, this seduction of Dooku.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: You have the whole part about, you know, the seduction
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: of Cipho Das to create the Clone Army. And like
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: you said, there's really this beautiful thing in that Palpatine
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: doesn't just throw everything away. What he did us is
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: he takes all the pieces that are beneficial to him
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: and continues to use them, specifically in you know, Dooku,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: realizing that Dooku, you know, won't be the long term answer,
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: but he's going to be the right answer at this moment,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: especially since you know he he's lost Darth Maul. And
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: so I love, love, love this this idea, and I
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: think it's just so smart, it's so well done. They've
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: done such a great job in the in the book
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: of bringing this all together. And you know, I think
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: that's the thing too. I remember I got to ask
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: you this. So I remember the first time reading this
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: and being astounded that the book goes through after the
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Phantom Menace, because I did not expect that, and I
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: was completely shocked. And yet what I loved is the
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: way in which this is what good you know tie
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: in fiction does. It makes you watch something in a
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: completely different way. And I could never watch The Phantom
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Menace again, or even the Clone Wars or the Attack
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: of the Clones the same way because this book had
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: added so much to my knowledge of everything that's going
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: on behind the scenes that we aren't actually seeing.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: It's just a sounding.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: I just I still fixate on the fact that at
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: the time that I read it, I tried to convey
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: it to my friend Joey, and he was dismissive and
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: laughed at it and called it stupid because he thought
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: it was even though he hates the Prequels, and I
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: don't use the word hate lightly here, folks. He literally
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: hated the Prequels, and then he hated what I told
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: him about this because because of what you're talking about
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: right here where I said, oh, no, no, no, you
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: basically find out this is what was going on behind
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: the scenes, and this is what was going on off
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: screen while I was looking over here at what was
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: going on in the movie. What would you say to
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: somebody where they read this book or you tell them
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: about this book and they said, oh, that's dumb. That's
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: not what was on screen. That's not how I saw it. Well, Like,
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: how would you compel somebody who hears you tell about
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: the book, How would you compel them to read it right?
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: How would you sell reading this book to somebody. Let's
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: say you're sitting with Bob Iger or somebody and you're
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: trying to convince them to turn this into a series.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: How do you sell this book to them? How do
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: you say, look at this as source material?
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I would say that this book helps bring
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: to life everything that was on screen and make it
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: really pop.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: That's what it does.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: It doesn't change anything in the sense of like you're
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: with your friend Joey, it's not changing the story. It's
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: not making it different. It's accentuating it. It's making it's
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: almost as if you just turned up the saturation. The
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: colors just get brighter, every story point gets more pronounced, right,
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: because what it is doing it is truly lifting the
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: material up even higher. As like, you know, I think
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: both of us really love the prequel series. We think
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: it's great, and I think everything you need is on screen.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: There's not anything that's missing. And yet what we saw
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: with like the Clone War series. Right, it took everything
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: that we thought we knew and made it even better,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: so that by the time you get to the ende
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: of you know, Revenge of the Sith, when all of
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: those Jedi are dying, well, now you know all of
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: those Jedi that are dying because you've spent time with them.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: It means more.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: The fall of Anakin Skywalker feels worse now because he
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: was a hero.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: We saw it. He was a hero so.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Many times, right, and so but this, I think this
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: is the type of thing where.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: You know and two, the way the.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Clone Wars enhanced the political ramifications of the story, right,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: this just brings to light the absolute corruption of the
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Republic at this point to make it make even more sense.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: It's not as though it didn't make sense before, but
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: it's like now I've got the full on thing.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: It's like.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: We had the redacted version of the CIA file before
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: of the story. Now we've got the unredacted version, and
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: it just blows your mind.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: I do. I know exactly what you're saying, because I
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: would take everything you said and then I would say
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: if I were pitching this, I would say and then
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: the ending of This is exactly like what they pulled
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: off with the Clone Wars, with the Phantom Apprentice.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you.
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: That is exactly the way I see this playing. And
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: I would give if only I could win the power
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: Ball and I could waltz in and be like, listen, listen,
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: I'll put up my own money here. Let me just
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: hire some people, let me just make this. Trust me,
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: the kids are going to love it. The kids are
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: going to go crazy for this. Trust me, this is good.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: This is gonna be wonderful. I think that what is
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: a shame, what is a real shame, is that first
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: and foremost, we all know my my love hate relationship
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: with the EU, But there have been some tremendous writers
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: that have worked in the service of the Star Wars license.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: You know, Luceno is one of them. You mentioned John Jackson, Miller,
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: Michael Stackpole with his his Rogue Squadron series. Obviously everybody
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: loves him. At the somebody who I was about to say,
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: I was like, we loved him so much, we brought
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: thrown back right yeah, and made him a major player.
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: And it is one of those things where I really
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: wish there was something that did a better job of
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: acknowledging all of these authors and saying that a lot
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: of the ideas, even the ideas in the Rise of Skywalker,
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: regardless of how you felt about the film, when you
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: started to pick away at some of those ideas that
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: they lifted from the EU, it always bothers me in
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: the same way that it bothers me when I watch
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: Marvel movies, the good ones up to Endgame, where you
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: if you knew comics, you knew where they were getting
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: these stories from. And I wish that there was a
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: way for Disney to acknowledge these authors, like when good
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: ideas are brought forward from somebody, I wish there was
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: a way for them to get more acknowledgment, right, Yeah, for.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Things, But I think you know, you asked the question
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: like how would you sell this?
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the ways you sell this,
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: especially now, is like, look at what Filoni and Favreau
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: are doing with the Mandalorian and basically pulling ideas from
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: the Throng trilogy but making it their own. Do the
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: same thing with this. We're not saying you have to
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: do everything in this story. We're not saying you have
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: to do a page for page adaptation take the ideas
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: here which are excellent, and allow somebody like Dave Filoni
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: to help somebody turn this into a masterpiece, you know,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: because that's where this stuff is working. And like we've mentioned,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: you do this story and it does the very thing
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: that Dave Filoni has spent a lifetime of doing in
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Star Wars these days, which is tying everything together, making
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: it feel more cohesive. This makes the mess of the
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: sequel trilogy make more sense.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: Yep. Regardless, it's all sitting right there. It's all sitting
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: right there, just needed to take and they refuse to
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: do it. There's a I you know what, I'm not
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: going to go down that whole road again. What I'm
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: going to say is what I want to What I
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: want to ask you is what is your favorite part
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: of this book? What is the one part where you
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: read it and you you said, I mean I accepting
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: the end of it, where it surprised you how it
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: kept going. Like, what is the one part where you
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: just everything clicked for you and you would pull it
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: out and you were trying to convince somebody to read it,
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: and you would say, just read this ten pages, read
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: this chapter. What's the part you're going to pull out
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: and give to them and say this is what you
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: need to read.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I I have so many. I was
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: reading this digitally because you know, I wasn't going to
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: spend one hundred dollars on a hardcover copy, even though
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: I'll be I'll.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Be continuing to look to see if I can find one.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: At a decent price because i want this on my
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: bookshelf and I'm really mad at myself that I don't
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: have it on my bookshelf. So if any listeners out
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: there have had an extra copy, please steel free to
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: send me one. Just hit me up at Matt Rushing
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Zoe two on Twitter or ex Twitter that is. But
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, gosh, I kept highlighting the sections on Plaguis
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: talking about the Midichlorians, talking about the force at this level,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: talking about all of that stuff, which made it so
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: fascinating to me. Like that's the stuff that I was
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: just loving because I think you know what that does
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: is it takes people's i think frustration of feeling like oh,
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: this is just some scientific explanation and it's creating this
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: incredibly interesting mystery that's still very hard to unravel and
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: still mysterious, right Like I loved it, and that's the
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: stuff for me that that you know, it's like, I
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: want people to be able to read that and realize
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: what you can do with this depth of the storytelling,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: with a great storyteller behind it, you know. To me,
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: that's the stuff that just kind of like I love watching,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: I love reading.
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: For me, being the lifelong Doors fan, I felt like
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: Luceno gave me a little wink because chapter thirteen is
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: titled Writers on the Storm, and I was like, there
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: is no way that James Luceno didn't title that as
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: a wink at Doors fans, but there is. He goes
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: very in depth in that chapter, and I love how
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: in depth he goes. It opens up with them chasing
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: a herd of beasts and they're they're killing the beasts,
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: and it's about getting inside their minds and everything. I'm
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: gonna read it if you'll indulge me. I'm gonna read
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: a small passage from it here because he makes he
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: makes actual refferences to Ashla and Bogan, which are all
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: the way from the earliest drafts of Star Wars, and
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: in one chat one chat, and in one section he
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: paused to glance at Sidius no doubt the texts I've
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: provided contained references to the so called potentium theory that
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: light and dark depend on the intention of the user.
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: This is yet another perversion of the truth perpetrated by
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: those who would keep us shackled to the force. The
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: power of water and the power of fire are entirely different.
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: Glaciers and volcanoes both have the potential to transform landscapes,
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: but one does so by burying what lies beneath, where
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: the other spews forth new terrain. The syth are not
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: placid stars, but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose,
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: our own design. That is one of the most damn
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: poetic things I have ever read. In what could be
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: easily qualified as just to toss off money making novel. Yeah,
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: we're gonna want to write a book called Darth Playgus.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: The the kids are gonna love it. They're gonna buy
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: dozens of copies, and we're gonna be fine. They we're
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: gonna sell millions of copies no matter what. But I
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: get something like that from the main character of the book. Yeah,
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: Holy like I like that. That feels like I I
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: underpaid for the addition that I bought. Yeah, that's like,
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: I that's literature right there. That is moving, that's amazing,
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: and I just I don't, you know, sorry to go
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: on and on. Obviously I love the book.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's great that you you
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: said that, because that whole theory too, is something that
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: was at the end of the yujuon Vong series New
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Jedi Order, uh, and kind of lasted for a little
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: bit until you know that the the Jedi Luke's Jedi
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: go back to a light and dark side. So I
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: think that's fascinating that this is put in this this series, Uh,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: that's put in this book.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Again, that just kind of shows that the depth that
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: we're dealing with and the breath of utilizing all parts
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: of the EU to inform this story and in all
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: parts of Star Wars as we had seen it to
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: that point. And so you know, I think, you know,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things, John, like, we could probably
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: spend hours just talking about all the different facets of
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: this book that we love and and everything that go
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: into it, but and we don't really do this much.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: But I'm wondering, if you know, you had to give
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: this a rating out of five?
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: What would you give Darth Plagis?
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: As a fan? This is a five, and that's what
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: I'll rate it. As a person who just reads books,
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: this would be completely inscrutable to my wife. She wouldn't
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: know what to make heads or tails of it. So
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: it's not like I'm just going to go to somebody
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: and be like, you know, do you like Star Wars?
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: I've never really seen the movie. Here's read Darth Plagus.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: Then I'm gonna know what to do with this, But
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna go ahead and rate it. As a fan.
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: This is a five. This is this is the reason.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: This is the type of book where I this is
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: what kept me involved in the EU, even during the
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: times where I didn't like what the EU was doing.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: This is the type of book where I would read
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: it and say, oh, okay, all right, well I'll buy
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: the next one too, just in hope. You know, like
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: it's that, it's that shot that you need to keep
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: you going. Where do you land with it?
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is an absolute five. I mean it's
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: I would say that this book is it's utterly astounding,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: and it's breadth and its depth. Everything that it's doing
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: here is phenomenal, and like you said, yes it is.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: It is definitely a story that is is for fans,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: but it's the type of thing where, yes, of course
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: it's for fans, and it's it's it's it's the type
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: of thing that makes this matter, you know, like it
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: makes everything that you've watched matter and then it makes
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: it even better. And so, I mean, just incredible. Man.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: It's one of those things.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Rereading this, I just it was one of those things
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I can't believe I'm reading this. This is
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: so good, you know, and it's I think the last
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: time that I read a Star Wars book like this,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: you know, we were reading the Throw on a Sentency trilogy,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: you know, and just especially that final book in that
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: series where it's just like, you know, it's it's that
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: stupid emoji with the blowing brain.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: That's what this book is like.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: And if Disney is smart, what it does is it
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: takes this story and it makes it into some kind
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: of series. I think, you know, you could absolutely do
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: it as an animated series if you wanted. But this
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: is the type of story too, I think, you know,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: the beauty of this is it because all of the
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: characters are so young in it. You don't even have
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: to worry about the cast in the sense of bringing
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: back old cast members, right, because it doesn't matter, and
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: that's the beauty of this. So just do it in
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: any way, shape or form. You know, if you want
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: to spend three hundred and fifty million dollars on a series,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: this should have been the series that you were spending
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty million dollars on, and because it
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: would be a absolute fan favorite.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: So yeah, this is phenomenal.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: Everybody as a Star Wars fan should read this because
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: I also think it's still pretty much a series that
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: holds up even in the New Cannon. You know, there's
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: not a lot in here that doesn't work. And in
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: the beauty of this too, it's like, again, you could
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: pretty much just do this straight up as an ho adaptation,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: and then you just tweak here and there because that's
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: how minor the things are.
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm yep, all right. How delightful it is for
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: us to both love something so completely, so utterly. This
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: enters into a unique realm where I don't know that
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: we've been so aligned on something since we last talked
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: about the animated Yeah properties, honestly, so you know with
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: that where you know, if anybody wants to ask you
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: about the mysteries of darth Plagus the Wise, where can
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: they find you online?
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all over the place under the name Matt Rushing
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: zero two. You can also find me, of course here
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: on the network with a completed show called Owlpost, all
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: about the Harry Potter series one Chapter time. You know,
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: we're out the TFM network, you can find me doing
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: a bunch of shows.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: One is the.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: SCSO two Club talking about all of the fantoms we love,
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: and then a bunch of Star Trek shows over there
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: that I'm doing, So check all of those out. But
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: you know, John, if people want to see what secret
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: sith ceremonies you are performing, here are the Halloween Where
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: can people find you?
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: Oh, you can find me out there as Cassel Junkie
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: on your social network of choice, or here on the
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: network co hosting a show with Darren Moser and Tristan
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: Raddel called house Lights where we look at movies. I know,
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: revolutionary concept for a podcast, but honestly, I want to
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: get back to underlining some of the passages in Darth
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: plagis so happy Halloween and Master Rushing. I think it's
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: time to close these negotiations.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: Negotiations are closed. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.