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Netflix's Waco Documentary Is Government Propaganda · Under the Docs

0:00
Speaker 1: Someone's like punching you in the face. Like, I'm not
0:02
Speaker 1: punching you right now. This is not a sault.
0:11
Speaker 2: Under the dogs.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, under the dogs, very dam We bring your looks
0:19
Speaker 3: funny you could they original the shots they conning the
0:23
Speaker 3: dogs under the docks, under the docks, Yeah, under the docks.
0:42
Speaker 2: Under the Dogs.
0:55
Speaker 4: Welcome back to under the Docks, Paranoid American and Sean
0:59
Speaker 4: Chris Hey.
1:00
Speaker 1: Today we're going to get to the bottom of Waco.
1:03
Speaker 1: Finally some truth. We had to sit through a whole
1:06
Speaker 1: bunch of crazy conspiracy theories implying that the government overstepped
1:11
Speaker 1: its boundaries and didn't act within the bounds of the law.
1:14
Speaker 1: That's crazy, and finally some justice, some actual truth. Today
1:19
Speaker 1: is the official story of Waco, as told by Netflix.
1:23
Speaker 1: This is a series called Waco American Apocalypse. It was
1:27
Speaker 1: a mini series three episodes long, twenty twenty three by
1:31
Speaker 1: director Tilla Russell. And this one's unique in that it's
1:35
Speaker 1: got lots and I mean lots of interviews with x
1:39
Speaker 1: ATF agents, FBI, the negotiators just all across the board,
1:44
Speaker 1: including some Branch Davidian survivors. So it has lots of
1:50
Speaker 1: unaired footage lots of unaired interviews that we haven't seen
1:53
Speaker 1: anywhere else. And like I said, this is the superior
1:56
Speaker 1: one because it's the official story, which is the true story.
2:00
Speaker 4: The only story, right, there is no other tale that
2:03
Speaker 4: they're telling.
2:04
Speaker 5: This is the way it goes, and Netflix knows how
2:06
Speaker 5: to tell.
2:06
Speaker 1: A story, Thank you, Obama. Plot In the course, well,
2:20
Speaker 1: since this one is three different episodes, let me just
2:23
Speaker 1: break down episode by episode and we'll talk about all
2:27
Speaker 1: the different claims made. So in part one we get
2:31
Speaker 1: a bunch of these original interviews, and here's what the
2:35
Speaker 1: official story claims are against the Branch Davidians. First, that
2:39
Speaker 1: they were converting semi automatic weapons into fully automatic weapons.
2:44
Speaker 1: That was where ATF gets involved. Next that there was
2:48
Speaker 1: a report that when they were being delivered a package,
2:52
Speaker 1: a package fell and broke open and grenades fell out,
2:55
Speaker 1: So that was another reason that the ATF said that
2:57
Speaker 1: they needed to get involved. And then when they were
3:00
Speaker 1: asking them, well how much artillery do you think these
3:04
Speaker 1: Branch Davidians have, one of these ATF in the interviews
3:07
Speaker 1: mentioned that they thought they had about forty to fifty
3:10
Speaker 1: machine guns and about eighty hand grenades. So this is
3:14
Speaker 1: the reason that the ATF originally gets involved, or so
3:18
Speaker 1: they say. To this point, we have some reports of
3:24
Speaker 1: a girl that was nine years old that came running
3:27
Speaker 1: into the room and saw David Koresh's wife run up
3:32
Speaker 1: to a window and point a gun out a window
3:35
Speaker 1: and then just fly back out of the window. So
3:36
Speaker 1: she's saying like, here, i am a nine year old girl,
3:39
Speaker 1: and I'm seeing Koresh's wife run to get into this
3:42
Speaker 1: gun shootout and then get blasted back, and that she
3:44
Speaker 1: hasn't been able to erase that in her mind. This
3:47
Speaker 1: is the kind of direct interview eyewitness account that we
3:51
Speaker 1: haven't really seen in any of these videos up to
3:54
Speaker 1: this point. So it definitely paints a completely different picture
3:57
Speaker 1: than the first couple.
3:59
Speaker 4: And it gives you this point of view that you
4:01
Speaker 4: think starting out that you're going to get a very
4:05
Speaker 4: unbiased story because you do have not only like you said,
4:08
Speaker 4: ATF agents, the actual interrogators, one of the snipers, right,
4:13
Speaker 4: but you also have like what you think, the other
4:15
Speaker 4: side is where you have some of the branch Davidians,
4:18
Speaker 4: you know, trying to tell their side of the story.
4:21
Speaker 4: And that's it gets shaky because they kind of back
4:24
Speaker 4: up some of the real story, and they add a
4:27
Speaker 4: little bit of like maybe they are on like going
4:29
Speaker 4: to tell you the truth, and then they really you back.
4:31
Speaker 1: In yeah, and let me just drop some of the sarcasm.
4:35
Speaker 1: I don't don't think this is the most accurate version,
4:39
Speaker 1: but this is the only one that we've seen so
4:41
Speaker 1: far that sort of takes the ATF and the FBI's
4:46
Speaker 1: stance in this and they kind of reinforce it so here.
4:49
Speaker 1: For example, the first couple of Waco documentaries we watch,
4:53
Speaker 1: which were a big lie. The first one hyper fixated
4:57
Speaker 1: on these guys on top of the roof that are
5:00
Speaker 1: breaking into this window and talking about like, let's break
5:03
Speaker 1: it down and here's all the different bullet points. Well,
5:05
Speaker 1: they actually have one of the guys that is on
5:08
Speaker 1: the roof. We talked to about six different people in
5:12
Speaker 1: this documentary series. We've got Bob Rix, who's the FBI
5:16
Speaker 1: Special Agent in charge. We talked to Jim Cavanaugh, who
5:19
Speaker 1: was the original FBI negotiator that was talking directly to
5:23
Speaker 1: David Koresh. We got a guy named Chris Whitcomb who's
5:27
Speaker 1: the FBI sniper. We've got Gary Nnosner, who was the
5:32
Speaker 1: second FBI negotiator, that took over whenever Jim Cavanaugh needed
5:36
Speaker 1: to take a pee break. Lee Hancock, who was she
5:40
Speaker 1: was a reporter for the Dallas Morning News. And then
5:43
Speaker 1: one of the Branch Davidians, David Thibodeau. So, and there's
5:48
Speaker 1: lots more in this, But the reason I mentioned some
5:50
Speaker 1: of these guys' names is that one of them actually
5:53
Speaker 1: mentions He's like, I'm that guy, like in that footage
5:56
Speaker 1: in the window, the one that throws the grenade in
5:58
Speaker 1: the window and like blast inside. He's like, that's me.
6:01
Speaker 1: That's me with the red stripe on my helmet. And
6:03
Speaker 1: this one has much better digitized footage of that exact
6:08
Speaker 1: same thing that we saw over and over again. So
6:10
Speaker 1: when the scene came up, all I was like, I've
6:12
Speaker 1: seen this before. I know what this happens here. So
6:15
Speaker 1: he tries to describe what happens outside that window on
6:19
Speaker 1: that roof, and he says that there was a guy
6:22
Speaker 1: in the room when he peeks inside, that there's a
6:24
Speaker 1: Branch Davidian him with an AK forty seven, and that
6:27
Speaker 1: he ran away down some hallway. So he jumps into
6:31
Speaker 1: the window. FBI jumps into the window and chases this
6:35
Speaker 1: guy down the hallway with his nine milimeters side arm
6:37
Speaker 1: just blasting at him. And he said that when that
6:40
Speaker 1: was happening, they were shooting from the inside of the
6:43
Speaker 1: building to the outside. He's like, they're shooting through the
6:45
Speaker 1: walls at us. So again, this is that official narrative,
6:48
Speaker 1: and here he is describing exactly what he thinks was happening.
6:52
Speaker 1: And this part one, Part two, in part three, the
6:56
Speaker 1: one thing that they do is the human e the
7:00
Speaker 1: ATF and the FBI agents in a way that we
7:02
Speaker 1: didn't see in any of the previous ones. And I
7:05
Speaker 1: did have to take a step back. It's like, Okay,
7:07
Speaker 1: these are also human beings, even if they're working for Babylon, right,
7:12
Speaker 1: even if they're working for the inside the belly of
7:14
Speaker 1: the Snake and they're perpetrating all these horrible injustices on
7:18
Speaker 1: American people. I guess they're still human. Maybe deep down
7:22
Speaker 1: a few of them are probably reptilian shape shifters. But
7:25
Speaker 1: we do get like a humanistic look for them, which
7:28
Speaker 1: was lacking from the first few that we watched so far.
7:32
Speaker 4: I would even go on to say more empathetic, right,
7:35
Speaker 4: they want us to have some compassion for them, that, oh,
7:37
Speaker 4: poor guys, I sat you, especially how it drags on
7:41
Speaker 4: right as you get into the deeper episodes, it's.
7:43
Speaker 5: Like, dude, I'm just a god trying to live my life.
7:47
Speaker 4: Like that's how you get like some of them come
7:49
Speaker 4: across at times where they're just like, hey, man, you know,
7:52
Speaker 4: we were fighting for our lives. Like one of the
7:54
Speaker 4: funny scenes to me, I think it's in episode two though,
7:58
Speaker 4: they're talking about like the tank right coming in and
8:01
Speaker 4: it's like we had to bring some Bradley's and but
8:02
Speaker 4: you don't understand these guys had fifty cout like you
8:06
Speaker 4: know what I'm saying, Like he was talking about like
8:08
Speaker 4: they could take out these tanks easy, Like bro, they're
8:10
Speaker 4: not they don't have a military like the way that
8:13
Speaker 4: he was like, we're we're actually kind of putting ourselves
8:16
Speaker 4: in danger by bringing these tanks in. And you're like okay, man,
8:19
Speaker 4: like I get it, Like you are a human, I
8:21
Speaker 4: would get it if you were like, yeah, we made mistakes.
8:24
Speaker 4: They were just like trying to justify a lot of
8:26
Speaker 4: what they did well.
8:28
Speaker 1: And also when they bring that up, they never use
8:32
Speaker 1: the word tank. He says Bradley fighting vehicle. And when
8:35
Speaker 1: he says that I'm like, my dude, like, I know,
8:37
Speaker 1: I know a tank when I see one. You can
8:39
Speaker 1: call it whatever you as an audio podcast or if
8:42
Speaker 1: you're listening to this interview, he'd be like, Oh, they
8:44
Speaker 1: didn't even send tanks and they sent in Bradley fighting vehicles.
8:48
Speaker 1: And I mean there's a lot of words smith ory
8:50
Speaker 1: going around in these ones. And another one that was
8:54
Speaker 1: in Part one that was kind of telling is that
8:58
Speaker 1: when the ATA originally is gonna do this first rate, right,
9:03
Speaker 1: we heard in the previous documentaries that the PR person
9:06
Speaker 1: for ATF was like calling up reporters and was saying stuf,
9:10
Speaker 1: I'm gonna paraphrase. Seems to like, hey, you might want
9:12
Speaker 1: to show up a little early tomorrow with lots of cameras.
9:14
Speaker 1: Something BIG's gonna go down, right, like kind of like
9:17
Speaker 1: leading this. So they make a point in Part one
9:21
Speaker 1: that the ATF is more than happy to accommodate all
9:25
Speaker 1: these different camera crews to come in and film stuff
9:28
Speaker 1: because they thought this was a slam dunk. They were like,
9:30
Speaker 1: we're gonna be MVPs. We're gonna look so badass. It's
9:33
Speaker 1: gonna be in and out twenty minutes, and we're gonna
9:36
Speaker 1: have this whole thing wrapped up. So when the cameras
9:38
Speaker 1: and the news crews show up in the morning, it's
9:41
Speaker 1: all like, come on in, guys, Yeah here, let's set
9:43
Speaker 1: up your lady. Let's get you some good shots. After
9:45
Speaker 1: everything goes sideways and atf guys are getting taken out
9:49
Speaker 1: and they're having to retreat. Now all of a sudden,
9:52
Speaker 1: they are incredibly antagonistic towards these camera guys. It's like,
9:55
Speaker 1: give me your camera. They're getting in their way, they're
9:57
Speaker 1: harassing them. So you can see like in real time
10:02
Speaker 1: this shift of hey, we like the media, go ahead
10:05
Speaker 1: and film to like what are you doing with that camera?
10:07
Speaker 1: Do you have you know, authorization to be here, So
10:10
Speaker 1: you can see the frustration and everyone involved there, including
10:13
Speaker 1: the camera guys.
10:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, they thought that this was going to be so easy,
10:18
Speaker 4: and like they were going to be holding them and
10:20
Speaker 4: then getting the snapshots and bonuses and moving on up,
10:24
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like, all right, man, we're
10:25
Speaker 4: about to get cash in and then uh then the
10:28
Speaker 4: army of Branch Davidians, you know, the Marine Division just
10:33
Speaker 4: like took them out bro like.
10:36
Speaker 1: And this one too. In part one, they kind of
10:38
Speaker 1: described the interaction between ATF and FBI, and you obviously
10:43
Speaker 1: get the sense we're getting a very simplified version of
10:47
Speaker 1: events here. But he says that after the initial ATF
10:51
Speaker 1: raid goes sideways and they lose I think four different
10:54
Speaker 1: ATF agents in that initial raid because a federal agent
10:59
Speaker 1: law their life. Now it becomes FBI jurisdiction, and that's
11:03
Speaker 1: why FBI comes in. This is kind of like the
11:05
Speaker 1: official reasoning. And then there was an explanation of okay, well,
11:10
Speaker 1: ATF and FBI weren't exactly synergistic here. They weren't like
11:14
Speaker 1: working in tandem together as a cohesive unit. They were
11:19
Speaker 1: sort of red team Blue team working against each other
11:23
Speaker 1: even though they're both going for this common cause. And
11:25
Speaker 1: one of the guys makes this interesting observation. He's like, look,
11:30
Speaker 1: the the ATF and the FBI are like brothers, Like
11:33
Speaker 1: they're gonna fight with each other, but when it comes
11:36
Speaker 1: down to it, they got each other's back. And like,
11:38
Speaker 1: I can think of some pretty toxic families that have
11:41
Speaker 1: got like you know, like siblings that are just throwing
11:44
Speaker 1: punches and doing the worst things to each other. But
11:47
Speaker 1: if one person's like, hey check yourself now, all of
11:50
Speaker 1: a sudden, both brothers are on you. That is kind
11:52
Speaker 1: of a great analogy for ATF and FBI, Like they're
11:55
Speaker 1: screwing up, they're breaking the law on their own, but
11:57
Speaker 1: if you call them out, now both of them are
11:59
Speaker 1: coming off are you.
12:01
Speaker 5: And I found it interesting.
12:02
Speaker 4: I think one layer of truth we did get in
12:05
Speaker 4: this film, not the only one, but there was some
12:07
Speaker 4: you know, kernels of truth and stuff is when you
12:09
Speaker 4: hear them talking about like, you know, the tactical teams,
12:12
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, They're like, hey, the tactical
12:15
Speaker 4: teams that the that are rescuing the hostages, they're like
12:17
Speaker 4: pretty aggressive, man, you know what I mean, Like we
12:19
Speaker 4: wanted to just take our time and you know, work
12:22
Speaker 4: it out. We were trying to get them out of there.
12:24
Speaker 4: But they're they're more tactical teams are. They're aggressive and
12:28
Speaker 4: they want to get in there. So you know, you
12:30
Speaker 4: just kind of do with that. Like they wanted to
12:32
Speaker 4: push the blame without pushing the blame. I saw a
12:34
Speaker 4: lot in this where they're like, you know, I wouldn't
12:36
Speaker 4: have done.
12:37
Speaker 5: It that way, but you know, that's just how they are.
12:39
Speaker 5: Kind of thing.
12:41
Speaker 1: The cliffhanger that we end on for issue one or
12:45
Speaker 1: episode one is they're basically saying that they came to
12:49
Speaker 1: an arrangement that David Koresh said, look, we got a
12:52
Speaker 1: deal as long as you broadcast this hour long sermon
12:56
Speaker 1: and you wanted it to be put out on like
12:58
Speaker 1: religious TV networks and we're just radio networks. And they
13:02
Speaker 1: did it. They actually gave him an hour to broadcast
13:06
Speaker 1: this message. And then it was like, all right, thank god,
13:09
Speaker 1: this was resolved peacefully. When are you gonna come out?
13:12
Speaker 1: And David's like, hold on one second, I'm getting something
13:16
Speaker 1: in from God right now. What's that?
13:18
Speaker 6: God?
13:19
Speaker 4: Oh?
13:19
Speaker 1: Oh, God says he doesn't want me to come out.
13:21
Speaker 1: My bad. He's like, sorry, God's running the show, not you.
13:25
Speaker 1: So even though we had a deal, God says that
13:28
Speaker 1: he doesn't want me to come out just yet. And
13:30
Speaker 1: then second that happened, the guys that were running, at
13:34
Speaker 1: least the Hostage Response Team and the FBI are like,
13:37
Speaker 1: screw this. We're going in like we're we're not waiting
13:39
Speaker 1: for this guy to wait for God to tell him
13:42
Speaker 1: that it's okay now. So this they at least present
13:45
Speaker 1: that like here's the defining moment when everything could have
13:48
Speaker 1: been resolved peacefully aside from some ADM agents and crush
13:52
Speaker 1: his wife dying and yadayada and getting shot, but that
13:55
Speaker 1: it could have resolved then instead of fifty one days
13:59
Speaker 1: later after this long, extended sort of standoff.
14:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, because they even talked about they were hoping that
14:04
Speaker 4: he would get out, remember that, like after he had
14:07
Speaker 4: gotten shot, that they were like, well, we're trying to
14:09
Speaker 4: put it in his head that hey man, it's going
14:10
Speaker 4: to get infected.
14:11
Speaker 5: You might die, like might want to get that treated.
14:14
Speaker 4: And they were either hoping he died or that he
14:16
Speaker 4: was so scared that he would give himself up.
14:20
Speaker 1: So this is what we start talking about in part
14:23
Speaker 1: two in three part series. So in part two they
14:27
Speaker 1: talk about the Bradley Fighting Vehicle and they said, the
14:30
Speaker 1: reason that they needed the Bradley Fighting vehicle, it's a
14:33
Speaker 1: freaking tank. The reason they needed tanks was because they
14:36
Speaker 1: wanted to take over a garage that was on the
14:39
Speaker 1: opposite end of the property and they were going to
14:42
Speaker 1: basically set up like a command unit there. And in
14:44
Speaker 1: order to get there, they had to go in front
14:49
Speaker 1: of the actual compound, the Mount Carmel compound. And since
14:52
Speaker 1: there this had been the focus of this big shootout. Previously,
14:56
Speaker 1: they said that, well, putting people in the bradley was
14:59
Speaker 1: the only safe way to get them into the side
15:01
Speaker 1: of the compound. So here that's the original justification of
15:05
Speaker 1: why were there even tanks on the property. It was
15:09
Speaker 1: just to transport safely a group of FBI guys to
15:13
Speaker 1: take over a building on the property. They weren't supposed
15:15
Speaker 1: to use it as tanks. They were just using it
15:18
Speaker 1: as a protective shell to get from point A to
15:21
Speaker 1: point B. That's the official story. Gary Nosner, who was
15:25
Speaker 1: the second FBI interrogator, as this is all happening, the
15:30
Speaker 1: guys inside the compound, they're like, Gary, the guys are
15:34
Speaker 1: creeping up on us, they're making moves, and Nazer has
15:37
Speaker 1: absolutely he claims he has absolutely no idea what's going on.
15:40
Speaker 1: He doesn't know if it's the ATF moving in. He
15:42
Speaker 1: doesn't know if it's the FBI moving in. And now
15:45
Speaker 1: we kind of see that in addition to FBI and
15:48
Speaker 1: ATF being on the scene and not coordinating with each other.
15:52
Speaker 1: Even within the FBI, you've got the negotiation team and
15:56
Speaker 1: then you've got this hostage response team, and they're not
15:59
Speaker 1: coordinating with each other, and they're almost working on opposite teams.
16:03
Speaker 1: So now we've almost got like a three way love
16:05
Speaker 1: triangle of death right between atf FBI negotiators and FBI
16:10
Speaker 1: hostage response teams. None of these are communicating with each
16:14
Speaker 1: other and in fact are often doing the exact opposite.
16:17
Speaker 1: Is what the other teams are doing is sort of
16:20
Speaker 1: like a manufactured chaos, and I just thought that it
16:23
Speaker 1: was revealing to just hear even the FBI negotiators, like
16:26
Speaker 1: I had no idea what was going on. Another interesting
16:29
Speaker 1: thing that came out of Issue too, is that they're
16:31
Speaker 1: implying that some of the Branch Davidians had a suicide pact,
16:36
Speaker 1: and one in particular, they talked to Kathy Schroeder and
16:41
Speaker 1: said that she was given a grenade and instructed to
16:44
Speaker 1: kind of stand in this room and if anything went sideways,
16:48
Speaker 1: that she was just going to pull this pin and
16:49
Speaker 1: take out everyone in the room. This one isn't as substantiated,
16:54
Speaker 1: but it's a very bold and very specific claim building
16:58
Speaker 1: towards this idea that the Branch Davidians were a doomsday
17:02
Speaker 1: cult and that they had this apocalyptic end planned out.
17:06
Speaker 1: That's sort of the official narrative that they start to
17:10
Speaker 1: trickle in is that, hey, even if we did everything right,
17:13
Speaker 1: this wasn't going to go well because the Branch Davidians
17:16
Speaker 1: were hell bent on dying and becoming martyrs. That becomes
17:20
Speaker 1: this narrative. There's also this this dynamic between the three
17:26
Speaker 1: different groups. I mentioned the negotiators, the hostage response team.
17:29
Speaker 1: In the ATF we talked to Chris Witcombe, who's the sniper.
17:33
Speaker 1: He's part of this hostage response team, and there's this
17:37
Speaker 1: one question. He says a lot of charge things throughout
17:41
Speaker 1: the course of the series, but the way that he
17:43
Speaker 1: simply he like breaks it down and he's like, look,
17:46
Speaker 1: we're here to kill the bad guys and save the
17:48
Speaker 1: good guys. That's it. And the way that he was
17:50
Speaker 1: able to just like there's no nuance here, there's no
17:54
Speaker 1: maybe there's some people doing right on this side and
17:56
Speaker 1: wrong on this side. It's just like I'm a good guy.
17:59
Speaker 1: I'm the souper hero, Kill bad guy, save good guy.
18:02
Speaker 1: The end, which seems a little bit scary, but again,
18:05
Speaker 1: he's this guy is not necessarily in charge of anything,
18:09
Speaker 1: but he's making the calls. He's the one that's creeping
18:12
Speaker 1: up behind the compound. That's freaking all the branch Davidians
18:15
Speaker 1: out to where they're calling negotiator and they're like, hey,
18:18
Speaker 1: they're moving in on us. He's the guy moving in
18:20
Speaker 1: and he's like, I don't care what these freaking negotiators say.
18:23
Speaker 1: They're desk jockeys. They're sitting behind a safe desk and
18:26
Speaker 1: they're talking about wants and needs and I'm out here
18:28
Speaker 1: putting my life on the line. So you can see
18:31
Speaker 1: the absolute dichotomy between these two different approaches.
18:35
Speaker 4: And then that's where they emphasize it a lot, you know,
18:37
Speaker 4: because there's some irritation coming from the negotiator side of it,
18:42
Speaker 4: where he's kind of like, dude, he feels that he's
18:45
Speaker 4: talking him down and they're kind of.
18:48
Speaker 5: Pushing his buttons that doesn't quite out and go and
18:50
Speaker 5: jump and say that.
18:51
Speaker 4: But you could tell he's kind of like, yeah, I
18:53
Speaker 4: got him where I want him. And then they would
18:55
Speaker 4: do something that would bring him back, like, you know,
18:57
Speaker 4: push him.
18:58
Speaker 5: I get five steps forward, they put some three.
19:00
Speaker 4: Steps back, and it kept being this tug of war
19:02
Speaker 4: back and forth. And to go back to the picture
19:05
Speaker 4: they were painting about them being basically a death cult.
19:09
Speaker 4: When she's talking about the grenade. She was like, I
19:12
Speaker 4: was just ready to pull that pin and we were
19:14
Speaker 4: all gonna get exploded and died. And I'm like, dang,
19:17
Speaker 4: this space kind of great.
19:20
Speaker 1: Another thing, too, is that they're showing how as the
19:24
Speaker 1: FBI negotiators are maybe getting some goodwill, they got the
19:28
Speaker 1: sermon out on the air, like they're making some progress
19:31
Speaker 1: in their minds. But Koresh is sitting back and like, okay,
19:35
Speaker 1: Like I think I'm making move with you guys, but
19:38
Speaker 1: now there's these guys creeping up on me and you're
19:40
Speaker 1: saying you don't even know what's going on with them.
19:42
Speaker 1: So at a certain point, Koresh is like, you guys
19:45
Speaker 1: aren't in charge of this. It's it's the hostage response team,
19:48
Speaker 1: So let me talk to them. Like I don't even
19:50
Speaker 1: need to talk to you guys anymore. This is kind
19:52
Speaker 1: of a waste of my time. And the FBI negotiators
19:56
Speaker 1: they start to spin this. It sounds sloppy. None of
19:59
Speaker 1: this sounds like it was surgically executed with strategy. But
20:03
Speaker 1: the FBI negotiators they feed into it and they start
20:06
Speaker 1: playing good cop, bad cop. Well it's like, well, we're
20:09
Speaker 1: the good guys, like we're we're trying to resolve this
20:11
Speaker 1: peacefully and we're gonna get you what you need, and
20:13
Speaker 1: those are the bad cops. You don't want to deal
20:15
Speaker 1: with the bad cops. So if you can just resolve
20:18
Speaker 1: this with us, then it won't resort to them. And
20:21
Speaker 1: this doesn't necessarily help anything. But it's interesting how the
20:25
Speaker 1: good this doesn't seem planned. It was almost like the
20:27
Speaker 1: negotiators really did see themselves as like a force of good,
20:31
Speaker 1: and that the hostage response team was this like chaotic
20:34
Speaker 1: evil or like a like a necessary bad and they
20:37
Speaker 1: start playing into this, and I think that's essentially when
20:41
Speaker 1: everything falls apart. Because Koresh, even if you think he's
20:44
Speaker 1: absolutely crazy, he doesn't come across as a complete idiot
20:48
Speaker 1: or a bumpkin. He's smart enough to be like, I
20:51
Speaker 1: can see what's going on here. No one has any control,
20:54
Speaker 1: and he probably realized this was not gonna end well.
20:57
Speaker 5: Yeah, as he get that point for sure.
20:59
Speaker 4: I think even though hostage negotiators started to know like
21:03
Speaker 4: this is not towards the end where they're explaining of like, man,
21:06
Speaker 4: the sniper's moving, this guy's how come we're doing this,
21:09
Speaker 4: and then they even when they switch over and everything.
21:12
Speaker 4: They kind of just go, yeah, we gave you know
21:13
Speaker 4: what I mean, we had it and then not our fault.
21:16
Speaker 4: We did everything right on our end. But when they
21:19
Speaker 4: transferred the power over, you know how that goes. Nothing
21:22
Speaker 4: we could do. Like everybody was kind of washing their hands.
21:25
Speaker 4: But I was sad to hear that none of them
21:28
Speaker 4: were actually like claiming or owning up to the sloppiness.
21:31
Speaker 4: Like I could have actually believed that more like the narrative.
21:34
Speaker 4: It would have been more believable if they're like, yeah,
21:36
Speaker 4: you know, we were just sloppy and like disconnected back communication,
21:41
Speaker 4: no one on the same page. I might have bought
21:43
Speaker 4: that narrative more than anything else. Right, You're like, oh,
21:45
Speaker 4: I've been at work, I know how that goes.
21:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like the manager comes in and overrides everything
21:50
Speaker 1: the previous shift manager just said, and you're just like,
21:52
Speaker 1: who's running this company? That was the vibe. It was
21:56
Speaker 1: a shift change at the burger king at like two am.
21:59
Speaker 1: Is how they were running this operation For the rest
22:02
Speaker 1: to issue too. We start to get a little bit
22:05
Speaker 1: of a backstory on Koresh, which we got I think
22:08
Speaker 1: a much better version and the rules of engagement, but
22:12
Speaker 1: this one does bring up a couple points that, since
22:15
Speaker 1: this is the official narrative, they bring up points that
22:20
Speaker 1: sort of feed into like the ATF and the FBI's
22:23
Speaker 1: portrayal of how all this went down. For example, Well,
22:27
Speaker 1: one of the things you mentioned is that the FBI
22:30
Speaker 1: negotiators they were like waiting and hoping that Koresh would
22:33
Speaker 1: just die, and I think this is accurate. They're like, Hey,
22:36
Speaker 1: if Koresh dies, there's no one else inside this compound
22:41
Speaker 1: in the branch davidians that like take over his place,
22:44
Speaker 1: and like, all right, well now I'm run in the show, Like,
22:46
Speaker 1: as soon as he dies, the entire event is over
22:49
Speaker 1: and they can just move in and I get quote
22:52
Speaker 1: unquote save everybody whatever that would have ended up meeting.
22:56
Speaker 1: So then they start doing a deep dive on David
22:59
Speaker 1: Koresh himself. So they start talking about how nineteen seventy nine,
23:04
Speaker 1: David Koresh was kind of a normal person and he
23:07
Speaker 1: had a complete nervous breakdown that included visual and audio hallucinations.
23:12
Speaker 1: He starts thinking that he's talking to God, and then
23:15
Speaker 1: this folds into I guess he had been really obsessed
23:18
Speaker 1: with reading the Bible, specifically Book of revelations and even
23:22
Speaker 1: more specifically the whole Seven Seals thing, like he had
23:25
Speaker 1: been fixated on that even as a kid. So after
23:28
Speaker 1: he has this mental breakdown in seventy nine that he
23:31
Speaker 1: kind of locks into this like biblical view of the world.
23:35
Speaker 1: It talks about how he was born to a teenage
23:39
Speaker 1: mom and his dad was kind of like a career criminal.
23:42
Speaker 1: He was just some petty thief that he was subjected
23:46
Speaker 1: to abuse when he was an altar boy, that he
23:49
Speaker 1: dropped out of middle school and ran away as a
23:52
Speaker 1: middle schooler to join the Branch Davidians. So like early
23:56
Speaker 1: on he was going to be a Branch Davidian and
23:59
Speaker 1: that he was a carpenter. And they clearly, I don't
24:02
Speaker 1: know if it's not the documentary that says this, but
24:04
Speaker 1: people that are interviewing about him and they're like, yeah,
24:07
Speaker 1: he wasn't very bright or attractive. He was just kind
24:10
Speaker 1: of like this this weird guy that showed up one day.
24:14
Speaker 1: So he ends up getting close to Lois Rodin, and
24:18
Speaker 1: Rodin was the wife of the guy that originally was
24:21
Speaker 1: running the entire Branch Davidian compound. Not back to the thirties,
24:26
Speaker 1: I don't think, but like over time, she ends up
24:28
Speaker 1: outliving her husband who ran it, and then she kind
24:31
Speaker 1: of becomes like a de facto leader. Well, Koresh gets
24:35
Speaker 1: really close to her. I mean they use the word
24:38
Speaker 1: seduced that he seduces Lewis Rodin. He's in his twenties
24:42
Speaker 1: right now, and Lewis Roden is sixty seven. So this
24:45
Speaker 1: twenty year old seduces the sixty seven year old the
24:49
Speaker 1: leader of the branch Davidians, And when she dies, she
24:53
Speaker 1: passes all the power on to David instead of her
24:56
Speaker 1: own son. And then this becomes this like inner he
25:00
Speaker 1: in between Lewis Roden's son and David Koresh, they have
25:03
Speaker 1: a freaking gunfight. They have a full blown shootout, and
25:07
Speaker 1: David Koresh gets arrested for attempted murder for shooting at
25:11
Speaker 1: Lewis Roden's son, But the jury was hung on whether
25:15
Speaker 1: or not this was a self defense case, and instead
25:18
Speaker 1: of bringing the case back, they just let it lapse,
25:21
Speaker 1: so technically he was arrested for attempted murder, did get
25:24
Speaker 1: into his shootout, went all the way to trial and
25:27
Speaker 1: the court was just like, it's not worth bringing this
25:29
Speaker 1: back again. We might just get another hung jury because
25:32
Speaker 1: these Texas jurors are all about their guns and stand
25:35
Speaker 1: in your ground, so we don't know how much to
25:38
Speaker 1: push this. So this kind of begins the entire trajectory
25:42
Speaker 1: of David Koresh running this whole compound. And then they
25:46
Speaker 1: as the episode winds down, they show that a year prior,
25:51
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two, that a current affair news program
25:55
Speaker 1: from Australia they went and visited Waco because there were
26:00
Speaker 1: so many Australians that were leaving to come and live
26:03
Speaker 1: with the branch Davidians, and so they were like, why
26:07
Speaker 1: are these Australians going all the way to Texas to
26:10
Speaker 1: live with these guys. So they have interviews with Korsh
26:12
Speaker 1: to walk around the compound. It's surreal seeing such an
26:16
Speaker 1: inside look, knowing that everyone that they're interviewing essentially is
26:19
Speaker 1: going to die in a fire within a year from
26:21
Speaker 1: that footage.
26:23
Speaker 4: And you're right, this is where they kind of started
26:25
Speaker 4: painting the mainstream narrative even more of who David Koresh
26:29
Speaker 4: was right, like not that there was a truth.
26:31
Speaker 5: I think that's one thing that's really done.
26:35
Speaker 4: This is a really crafty film where they're able to
26:38
Speaker 4: give you truth but they wrap it into their narrative
26:41
Speaker 4: and it's kind of like it gets murky because they're
26:44
Speaker 4: telling the history of it, but they want to point
26:46
Speaker 4: out like, hey, he started as a violent leader, right,
26:50
Speaker 4: he took this over as a like it's like a dictator,
26:53
Speaker 4: like he took over the country man. Like now they're
26:56
Speaker 4: all following he's a ruthless guy. I thought that was
26:58
Speaker 4: important for them to tell. And this piece were like
27:01
Speaker 4: he was in a gunfight, man, you almost killed And
27:03
Speaker 4: then when you hear them talk about they're like, it's Texas,
27:06
Speaker 4: like you know.
27:10
Speaker 1: And another part of that it's Texas is that towards
27:14
Speaker 1: the end of episode two, they start going in on
27:18
Speaker 1: like the young girls that Koresh was marrying, and they
27:21
Speaker 1: really hone in on this. So, for example, they talk
27:24
Speaker 1: about how in the late nineties Koresh marries a fourteen
27:28
Speaker 1: year old and then again someone comes in they're like, well,
27:31
Speaker 1: technically that's legal in Texas. Fourteen was the age of
27:34
Speaker 1: consent with parental sort of approval. So if the entire
27:39
Speaker 1: family brings their kids to this compound, then yeah, they
27:43
Speaker 1: probably have this approval. So on paper, yeah, he did
27:47
Speaker 1: marry this fourteen year old and then they go on
27:49
Speaker 1: and say, okay, when some of his other wives or
27:52
Speaker 1: wives to be were ten years old, eleven years old,
27:56
Speaker 1: thirteen years old, and that whenever they misbehave that David
28:01
Speaker 1: Koresh had a big paddle and he would just spank
28:03
Speaker 1: them like every day, all day. So we don't have
28:07
Speaker 1: any direct accusations in this series where like, and here's
28:12
Speaker 1: what he did with that ten year old. They're just like,
28:15
Speaker 1: and here's a room of girls that are gonna be
28:17
Speaker 1: David's wives, and it is super creepy, and they're all
28:20
Speaker 1: talking like, yeah, David's gonna be my husband one day.
28:23
Speaker 1: You know. It's like, it's absolutely creepy. However, I went
28:27
Speaker 1: back to the previous documentaries we watched, and one of
28:30
Speaker 1: them made this claim about, hey, they're gonna bring up
28:33
Speaker 1: all of these like child bride things, but they're not
28:37
Speaker 1: gonna make direct accusations because it's here just to sully
28:41
Speaker 1: the character of David Koresh. So now when people are like, wha,
28:44
Speaker 1: maybe he deserved to die in a fire with all
28:46
Speaker 1: these people, and you can kind of see that happening
28:49
Speaker 1: here because they don't make the direct accusations that anything
28:53
Speaker 1: specific happened, just that he had these like child brides
28:56
Speaker 1: lined up to marry him in the future. And the
29:00
Speaker 1: final cliffhanger of this one is they go back to
29:02
Speaker 1: Chris Whitcomb, the FBI sniper, and he's like, I had
29:06
Speaker 1: David koresh in my sites under three hundred yards. There
29:10
Speaker 1: was no wind, My finger was on the trigger. If
29:13
Speaker 1: I sneezed, I would have taken him out clean and
29:16
Speaker 1: this whole thing would have been over. And then it's
29:17
Speaker 1: like to be continued. So you get the idea that like, again,
29:21
Speaker 1: this guy's like, I'm a good guy. I'm here to
29:24
Speaker 1: kill the bad guys and save the rest of the
29:26
Speaker 1: good guys. And he lives that part to a t.
29:29
Speaker 4: I want to like lift up what you were saying
29:32
Speaker 4: before that about the kids part, because I saw this
29:35
Speaker 4: film a year ago or two years ago before we
29:38
Speaker 4: did this series, and I had a different take because
29:42
Speaker 4: now that we watched the films before this, it gives
29:45
Speaker 4: you more because it does get you that.
29:47
Speaker 5: Emotional like, oh man, what is he doing to the kids? Man?
29:49
Speaker 5: It's it does muddy the waters.
29:51
Speaker 4: I'm a critical thinker, but when you start getting the
29:53
Speaker 4: kids involved, it does muddy it for me as well, right,
29:56
Speaker 4: Like I was like, man, that's kind of weird. And
29:58
Speaker 4: then they even have that part where one of the
30:00
Speaker 4: members is talking about like her going to sleep with
30:03
Speaker 4: David Koresh and she was like, yeah, it's like sleeping
30:05
Speaker 4: with God. Like it's not like you're really like having
30:08
Speaker 4: sex with them, you know it's God, And you're like.
30:10
Speaker 5: Whoa bro like this Lade's kind of crazy, like you
30:12
Speaker 5: know what I mean.
30:13
Speaker 4: But they were painting that picture of that there was
30:16
Speaker 4: all these devout completely different from what we saw in
30:19
Speaker 4: the other films where maybe like you're like, yeah, they're
30:21
Speaker 4: they believe in stuff we don't believe in, but it's
30:24
Speaker 4: maybe not as creepy and as weird as they're trying
30:27
Speaker 4: to make it be.
30:28
Speaker 5: So it's I think there's more of this middle area.
30:30
Speaker 4: But in this film they really want to show that
30:32
Speaker 4: not only is he like a crazy, fearless leader that's
30:36
Speaker 4: just like rules with the iron Fists, he's also like
30:38
Speaker 4: a pedo, like you know what I mean. They don't
30:40
Speaker 4: say it, but they're basically saying because they have that
30:43
Speaker 4: other girl that's like, like you said, all the niners,
30:45
Speaker 4: She's like, yeah, they're nine year olds and they're all
30:46
Speaker 4: just wishing to go be with David.
30:48
Speaker 5: And then like she was like I was the one
30:50
Speaker 5: that he beat the most.
30:52
Speaker 4: And this is the part that bugged me about that
30:54
Speaker 4: she was just like that he was attacking her.
30:56
Speaker 5: And I'm like, well, then why did he give you
30:58
Speaker 5: up first? Like why would he let you leave if
31:00
Speaker 5: he you.
31:01
Speaker 4: Were his favorite and he wanted like and he was
31:04
Speaker 4: doing all this weird, why would he let you be
31:06
Speaker 4: one of the kids to sleep? No?
31:08
Speaker 1: Oh, maybe that was punishment. That was her punishment was
31:11
Speaker 1: like you suck get out of here. Yeah. Maybe the
31:15
Speaker 1: third part and this is the final part in the
31:17
Speaker 1: Netflix series. Now we start getting into where everything goes wrong,
31:24
Speaker 1: and it starts out showing how they take this tank
31:27
Speaker 1: which are sorry Bradley fighting vehicle, definitely not a tank.
31:31
Speaker 1: They take these Bradley fighting vehicles and now they're just
31:34
Speaker 1: straight running over people's cars and just like causing mass damage.
31:39
Speaker 1: And David Koresh and everyone else is sitting there like
31:41
Speaker 1: did they just run over my truck? Like what are
31:44
Speaker 1: they doing out there? So here is the catalyst. Here's
31:48
Speaker 1: where they are clearly antagonizing everyone inside this building and
31:53
Speaker 1: kind of overstepping bounds a little bit. It's you can
31:56
Speaker 1: almost see the frustration and everybody as they're just running
32:00
Speaker 1: over all the cars outside the front. Then they're saying
32:04
Speaker 1: one of the branch Davidians is like, how can they
32:07
Speaker 1: do that? That's all evidence? Like these the cars that
32:10
Speaker 1: they're running over were riddled with bullet holes from the
32:14
Speaker 1: FBI and the ATF. So these cars that are getting crushed,
32:18
Speaker 1: not only was that evidence of how much firepower the
32:22
Speaker 1: FBI was like shooting into this compound, but now as
32:25
Speaker 1: they crushed them, that evidence is gone, just like the
32:27
Speaker 1: front door ends up disappearing, And that was such I
32:30
Speaker 1: don't know if they intended to include that little snippet
32:33
Speaker 1: and lead leave a little room open for you to
32:36
Speaker 1: kind of speculate on this, but that happens in this episode,
32:41
Speaker 1: and that was the first thing I thought of too,
32:42
Speaker 1: was like, damn, they are kind of destroying evidence by
32:45
Speaker 1: running over all these different cars. And then this is
32:48
Speaker 1: also when Koresh realizes as they're rolling everything over, these
32:52
Speaker 1: negotiators had absolutely no power and that he was right
32:57
Speaker 1: the entire time. The Koresh knew that they had no
33:00
Speaker 1: power and this was going to go sideways. So as
33:03
Speaker 1: soon as this, like frustration starts to rule the tactics
33:07
Speaker 1: of the FBI. I think that was the key indicator
33:10
Speaker 1: that none of this is going to turn out very well.
33:13
Speaker 4: And to get it like also torturing them right, like
33:16
Speaker 4: not only getting rid of evidence, but like torturing them
33:18
Speaker 4: with loud speakers and different music's playing, Like this was
33:24
Speaker 4: gonna end bad, like you said from the get go,
33:26
Speaker 4: And I think they were covering their tracks. That's my opinion,
33:29
Speaker 4: a little bit different from like the film. But I
33:31
Speaker 4: was surprised as well that they left it open. But
33:34
Speaker 4: I think that they didn't feel like viewers are. I
33:36
Speaker 4: think they just had it to There's so much other
33:39
Speaker 4: stuff that the regular viewer probably miss it.
33:42
Speaker 1: And as a regular viewer, they don't necessarily spell it
33:46
Speaker 1: out to like, hey, we didn't know what the hell
33:48
Speaker 1: we were doing. This got sloppy in a way. They
33:50
Speaker 1: don't say that. But there was one part that kind
33:54
Speaker 1: of shows this, and it's and it's when we're talking
33:57
Speaker 1: to the negotiators and the goat negotiators for frustrated because
34:01
Speaker 1: to the outside world, everyone's watching these tanks run over
34:06
Speaker 1: all these cars and intimidate people in the building, thinking that, oh,
34:10
Speaker 1: this is part of the negotiation tactics. They're kind of
34:12
Speaker 1: putting the squeeze on, and negotiators are like, this was
34:16
Speaker 1: not a negotiation tactic. This was destroying any power that
34:20
Speaker 1: the negotiations might have had. And this is essentially when
34:23
Speaker 1: negotiations stopped as soon as those tanks come out and
34:26
Speaker 1: start running over everything. And then we hear about this
34:30
Speaker 1: part was surreal to me, right, So the hostage response
34:34
Speaker 1: team they make a move, They run up to the
34:37
Speaker 1: building and they start putting tear gas inside the building
34:41
Speaker 1: using the tanks. They just ram like they say, quote
34:45
Speaker 1: punching holes. Really they just did, like took down walls,
34:48
Speaker 1: like the tank is now inside your living room. That's
34:50
Speaker 1: punching a hole through the wall. And they start injecting
34:53
Speaker 1: tear gas. But as they're doing this on a loud speaker,
34:56
Speaker 1: they're literally saying, we are entering tear gas into the building.
35:01
Speaker 1: This is not an assault. I repeat, this is not
35:04
Speaker 1: an assault. And I don't know, man, this is like
35:08
Speaker 1: someone's like punching you in the face, Like I'm not
35:10
Speaker 1: punching you right now. This is not assault. So they're
35:13
Speaker 1: saying one thing while the exact opposite is happening, and
35:17
Speaker 1: I guess there's no coming back from this part, right,
35:19
Speaker 1: like once the government's like I'm not hurting you as
35:22
Speaker 1: they're hurting you, like you know that there's no more negotiation.
35:25
Speaker 1: Negotiations have stopped at this point.
35:28
Speaker 5: That's where you could tell the tactical team took over.
35:31
Speaker 4: And they even allude to that, like you said with
35:33
Speaker 4: the FBI negotiators and all the negotiations breaking down, like
35:37
Speaker 4: they're like, Okay, this is over, and they take what
35:41
Speaker 4: it sounds like they take over and say we're ending this.
35:45
Speaker 4: That's how I took it. They're like, it's over. No
35:47
Speaker 4: more of this game. We played your little game now.
35:50
Speaker 4: The military tactical guys that are like we just go
35:53
Speaker 4: in there, bad guy dead, Like that's it, right, and
35:56
Speaker 4: they're like everybody's a bad guy to them in this situation,
36:00
Speaker 4: like you're not listening to me, you're a bad guy.
36:02
Speaker 4: You're going down, and you know this is an army threat,
36:05
Speaker 4: this is a terrorist threat. They even made it seem
36:08
Speaker 4: that way, like these domestic terrorists, like I'm doing what's
36:11
Speaker 4: right for the country, you know that. I think they
36:14
Speaker 4: really believe that. In the interviews with the sniper. You
36:17
Speaker 4: really get that feeling as you described earlier, not only
36:20
Speaker 4: like he's a good guy and he's the hero and
36:22
Speaker 4: these are all villains.
36:23
Speaker 5: He's like, I'm doing this for my country.
36:27
Speaker 6: You know.
36:27
Speaker 1: That guy just has an eighties like hair metal playlist
36:31
Speaker 1: just jamming in his head twenty four to seven, Like
36:34
Speaker 1: no matter where he goes, he's like this badass. And
36:37
Speaker 1: there was when they're doing this, they kind of explain
36:42
Speaker 1: that the sniper was explaining what the official intent was,
36:47
Speaker 1: and the official intent was they load this entire building
36:50
Speaker 1: full of tear gas, and then they start issuing commands
36:53
Speaker 1: to leave, and then I guess the part that they
36:56
Speaker 1: don't say is the dot dot or else? Right, if
37:00
Speaker 1: your buildings full of tear gas and they're like, come
37:02
Speaker 1: out with their hands up, YadA YadA, Well what happens
37:05
Speaker 1: if they don't and that doesn't get set, Well, we
37:08
Speaker 1: find out what happens is that everyone dies in an inferno. Right,
37:11
Speaker 1: That's essentially what happens, But that the official reason to
37:15
Speaker 1: do this was like we're just gonna smoke them out
37:18
Speaker 1: and they'll come out peacefully, which I don't know what
37:21
Speaker 1: logical steps they went through to get to that end
37:25
Speaker 1: where it didn't. It didn't seem like anyone was coming
37:27
Speaker 1: out of this building. Tear gas are not but that
37:29
Speaker 1: was the original intent. And then the fires start, right,
37:33
Speaker 1: and I guess that the I don't even know if
37:37
Speaker 1: this is the official story. I think this is not
37:38
Speaker 1: the official story. But what we see happen is that
37:41
Speaker 1: the tanks run up, they poke some holes through some
37:46
Speaker 1: certain parts, and they unleash this tear gas and then
37:49
Speaker 1: I guess this tear gas in close proximity can catch fire.
37:53
Speaker 1: So the tear gas catches fire. Now the compound's on fire. Well,
37:57
Speaker 1: in this Netflix series, they have one of these FBI
38:02
Speaker 1: analysts showing some FLEAR footage, which is like an infrared footage,
38:08
Speaker 1: and he's like, look, right when the fires start, here's
38:11
Speaker 1: three separate places in which fire spontaneously er ups at
38:16
Speaker 1: the exact same time. And they go on to say
38:19
Speaker 1: that the Branch Davidians had been hoarding these huge canisters
38:23
Speaker 1: of fuel and that once they realized that there was
38:26
Speaker 1: no way out, they started dousing everyone and everything in
38:30
Speaker 1: gasoline and then lit that on fire, and that it
38:33
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the tank lighting the fire,
38:35
Speaker 1: that it was the branch Davidians that did this to themselves.
38:39
Speaker 1: And eventually they're sitting here watching the building in flames,
38:42
Speaker 1: waiting for like a wave of people to come out,
38:45
Speaker 1: and that wave just never happens. And they only realize
38:49
Speaker 1: that like everyone's dead when the entire building collapses and
38:53
Speaker 1: you can see full like all the way across to
38:56
Speaker 1: like the backyard and there's no one there. The whole
38:58
Speaker 1: place is leveled. This was kind of like, oh, I
39:00
Speaker 1: guess didn't We didn't expect that to happen. And part
39:04
Speaker 1: of it was them saying like, look, it's the Branch
39:06
Speaker 1: Davidians that did this to themselves. They burnt themselves alive.
39:09
Speaker 1: And I think this is probably like one of the
39:11
Speaker 1: most contentious points of this entire thing is did the
39:16
Speaker 1: Branch Davidians set the fire or did the FBI set
39:20
Speaker 1: the fire, either on purpose or not on purpose? Like
39:24
Speaker 1: those three options all have very different ramifications.
39:28
Speaker 4: And conveniently, all the people that are interviewed that were
39:32
Speaker 4: Branch Davidians were pretty much like caught out before the fires,
39:36
Speaker 4: except that the big guy right the one where his
39:38
Speaker 4: mom I think, is he the only one that was
39:40
Speaker 4: there during the fire.
39:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, So someone this is David Tibble. Tibble his mom
39:45
Speaker 1: sees this on TV and she's like, not my baby,
39:48
Speaker 1: and she rushes, she drives to the scene, and David
39:52
Speaker 1: Tibble's even like, man, my mom's gonna show up to
39:54
Speaker 1: this thing. And she does, and miraculously her son does
39:59
Speaker 1: survive through this whole ordeal. And it's like, mom, come on,
40:04
Speaker 1: I'm having his shootout with the FBI. You're embarrassing me
40:07
Speaker 1: in front of my friends, right. But but again, like
40:10
Speaker 1: it's this very humanistic sort of view that you don't see,
40:14
Speaker 1: Like if you go by the official story, you just
40:17
Speaker 1: imagine that David Tibbolt's inside the compound, he's got bandoliers,
40:21
Speaker 1: he's holding like basically like a like a fifty caliber
40:25
Speaker 1: you know, mounted gun in his hands, and he's just
40:28
Speaker 1: going after the ATF And this is not the case. Man.
40:30
Speaker 1: He's just like, I just want my mom, I want
40:32
Speaker 1: to get out of here.
40:34
Speaker 4: And and that's what's interesting to me is there's nobody
40:37
Speaker 4: that's saying, like, oh, they were I just saw him
40:39
Speaker 4: just dunking and gasoline and then lighting themselves on fire.
40:44
Speaker 4: Like he kind of pushes the narrative more like I
40:46
Speaker 4: don't know, man, I think they they started the fire, Well.
40:49
Speaker 1: He says the opposite. He's like, there was no one
40:52
Speaker 1: was dumping fuel on anything that there was never a
40:56
Speaker 1: plan to do. He almost is kind of countering even
41:00
Speaker 1: in the grenade the lady that said that she had
41:03
Speaker 1: a grenade and she was going to pull the pin,
41:04
Speaker 1: he's even sort of saying like, no, that was never
41:06
Speaker 1: in the plans. None of that was discussed. I didn't
41:09
Speaker 1: see any of that happening. I didn't see anyone light
41:11
Speaker 1: the fires. And then they cut to one of the
41:14
Speaker 1: FBI negotiators, and you can they don't ask him like
41:18
Speaker 1: what do you think of David Tibbole, but you can
41:20
Speaker 1: tell that they asked him that, and he's like, David
41:22
Speaker 1: Tibbole's goddamn liar. Like that, that's the eventual response that
41:26
Speaker 1: the guy was just lying. So here again it's like
41:29
Speaker 1: he said, she said, do you believe the crazy death cult?
41:33
Speaker 2: Do you?
41:33
Speaker 1: Or do you believe the branch davidians because atf and
41:37
Speaker 1: FBI or a death cult. So it's like you don't
41:39
Speaker 1: know which one of these two to believe. Then this
41:42
Speaker 1: one ends out on him. It gets a little bit
41:45
Speaker 1: like poetic and dramatic. So they go back to Chris Whitcomb,
41:49
Speaker 1: who's this FBI sniper, the guy that's like putting the
41:52
Speaker 1: moves on the compound and saying that he's got Koresh
41:55
Speaker 1: in his scope, and he's talking about that he hears
42:00
Speaker 1: a bullet whiz by his head and that it was
42:03
Speaker 1: David Koresh himself. That was like as he's burning, as
42:07
Speaker 1: there's no way out, that he goes down and like
42:10
Speaker 1: this blaze a battle like trying to shoot at him.
42:14
Speaker 1: And then he talks about how it was raining Bible
42:17
Speaker 1: pages that like through the fire, I guess all these
42:20
Speaker 1: Bibles that were in the compound are like lighting up,
42:23
Speaker 1: so as you're standing there, Bible pages are floating down
42:26
Speaker 1: out of the air with like embers and fire still
42:28
Speaker 1: on them. And the last thing that they got a
42:31
Speaker 1: shot of was the Fourth Amendment. Someone had a constitutional
42:37
Speaker 1: book opened up to the Fourth Amendment, which is against
42:39
Speaker 1: unreasonable search and seizure, and that the page was all
42:43
Speaker 1: like crusted on the edges from the fire and it
42:46
Speaker 1: was just kind of like the centerpiece. So they end
42:49
Speaker 1: out on this like poetic thing about raining Bible pages
42:52
Speaker 1: and the Fourth Amendment, and it sort of just like
42:56
Speaker 1: leaves the rest of it up to you. This is
42:58
Speaker 1: clearly the official narrative, but it does at least get
43:03
Speaker 1: you to think a little bit of everyone involved as
43:05
Speaker 1: a human. Hidden treasures and overboard moments.
43:18
Speaker 5: What do you got my head treasures.
43:21
Speaker 4: I really like the upgrade of the footage, Like, because
43:24
Speaker 4: we saw these other films, not that there's not kicking
43:30
Speaker 4: the films, because obviously was the technology at the time,
43:32
Speaker 4: you see a lot more of the footage. And because
43:35
Speaker 4: we were able to see those other documentaries, we can
43:38
Speaker 4: place even if it's not the actual information that we want,
43:42
Speaker 4: we can kind of get a better scope and have
43:44
Speaker 4: a better thought process over what's going on with this footage.
43:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that for me, the hidden treasure was that
43:51
Speaker 1: cleaned up video and just the fact that we get
43:54
Speaker 1: exclusive interviews that haven't been repurposed from other sources. This
43:59
Speaker 1: was Netflix team going out and interviewing FBI atf Branch
44:04
Speaker 1: Davidians one on one and even getting them to call
44:07
Speaker 1: each other liars, like they're not in the same room
44:08
Speaker 1: or anything. But they are somewhat showing both sides of
44:13
Speaker 1: the story, which isn't something we've seen in any of
44:16
Speaker 1: the documentaries so far. It's usually all government or all
44:21
Speaker 1: Branch Davidian, and this is the first time that we
44:23
Speaker 1: get to see both of those and even edited together,
44:26
Speaker 1: where you get the official response, then you get the
44:29
Speaker 1: branch Davidian response. That was really kind of incredible to
44:32
Speaker 1: even see that for the Overboard Man, this one it
44:37
Speaker 1: was the longest, I think so far out of all
44:40
Speaker 1: the ones that we watch. It's like three different, roughly
44:43
Speaker 1: hour long episodes, so it's kind of on par with
44:47
Speaker 1: the First Way Go, the Big Lie one and two combined.
44:51
Speaker 1: But this one, man, there's really no concrete evidence that
44:55
Speaker 1: gets brought up. Pretty much everything that gets brought up
44:58
Speaker 1: in this entire three part series is just people's own accounts,
45:02
Speaker 1: what they thought they saw at the time, what they
45:04
Speaker 1: were feeling at the time. We don't necessarily like in
45:07
Speaker 1: the previous documentaries, and here's the official paperwork, and here's
45:11
Speaker 1: the official report that says this, and here's the Blue
45:14
Speaker 1: Book report. It's pretty much just everyone's word and their
45:17
Speaker 1: subjective experience, which I think is also what makes this
45:22
Speaker 1: one unique. But it also is like I don't know
45:24
Speaker 1: how much of this to take, Like, do I just
45:27
Speaker 1: accept that this FBI sniper is just Captain America killing
45:31
Speaker 1: Nazis and saving Americans or is there more nuance to it.
45:35
Speaker 1: You don't really get any of that nuance unless you
45:37
Speaker 1: put it in there yourself.
45:39
Speaker 4: It's that similar to my Overboard moments about Overboard, especially
45:43
Speaker 4: when they're like talking about like they're insinuating, trying to
45:48
Speaker 4: paint the picture like it's some of it doesn't seem natural,
45:50
Speaker 4: like maybe it's like rehearsed for years from them, right,
45:53
Speaker 4: I'm sure they've told a lot of these lies, but
45:56
Speaker 4: where they're sticking to like, hey man, this guy was
45:59
Speaker 4: an arms dealer, gangster, mafio, so pedophile, and they really
46:06
Speaker 4: like hone in on that they don't and you have
46:09
Speaker 4: to focus on that, so you can't see any of
46:11
Speaker 4: the blundering moves of the ATF or the FBI right
46:15
Speaker 4: like they're like, hey, don't look over here, look at
46:16
Speaker 4: this guy. And even some of the interviews like the
46:20
Speaker 4: young girl that said you know that was her favorite,
46:24
Speaker 4: and also Overboard moments showing the like hey, you want
46:27
Speaker 4: to hear your dad talking on the hostage line hey,
46:32
Speaker 4: where he's like I love you, like dude, like she's
46:34
Speaker 4: like nine years old, he's they're replaying the audio of that.
46:38
Speaker 4: I just thought they dramatized it a lot. I know
46:40
Speaker 4: that's part of what you do. I'm just not a
46:43
Speaker 4: big fan of that when we're trying to especially you're
46:45
Speaker 4: comparing it with the other Wacos, right, I'm getting information
46:48
Speaker 4: information they had. I like the backstory about David koresh
46:52
Speaker 4: and getting involved more. But I was like, oh again,
46:55
Speaker 4: you're spinning it so I can see him only as
46:57
Speaker 4: a villain, like they had nothing else. It's either he's villain,
47:01
Speaker 4: they're bad. We did the best we could. The only
47:04
Speaker 4: reason they went bas is David Koreshi it into this
47:06
Speaker 4: and maybe we didn't communicate perfectly, you know.
47:09
Speaker 5: What I mean.
47:10
Speaker 4: They're like that's their only like fault that they give
47:14
Speaker 4: themselves only accountability. The whole is like, maybe we could
47:16
Speaker 4: have done a couple of things different, you know what
47:19
Speaker 4: I mean. But they don't really acknowledge any of the
47:21
Speaker 4: errors that they made.
47:23
Speaker 1: And I got one really good example of how this
47:26
Speaker 1: movie kind of falls flat compared to some other ones.
47:28
Speaker 1: So in one of the previous movies, I think it
47:31
Speaker 1: was WACO Rules of Engagement, they show this aerial footage
47:36
Speaker 1: of the Bradley fighting vehicle right the tank, and it's like, okay,
47:40
Speaker 1: let's freeze frame. Look, here's the tank shooting and you
47:43
Speaker 1: can see the heat signature of it clearly coming out
47:48
Speaker 1: of the end of this tank, right, And they show
47:50
Speaker 1: that like three or four times, and then they zoom
47:53
Speaker 1: in and then they do it again in slow motion
47:55
Speaker 1: and then here's another view of it. So there in
47:57
Speaker 1: those movies are like, hey, look here's a claim where Mayke. Now,
48:00
Speaker 1: let's analyze video footage for fifteen minutes over and over
48:04
Speaker 1: again so that I can pinpoint this out to you.
48:07
Speaker 1: In the Netflix series, when they're talking about, oh, well,
48:10
Speaker 1: we've got this this flear footage that shows that the
48:13
Speaker 1: branch Davidians lit these different canisters on fire and that
48:17
Speaker 1: they're the ones that start of the fire. As he's
48:19
Speaker 1: saying that, they show a clip of the infrared footage
48:23
Speaker 1: for all of like a second and a half and
48:25
Speaker 1: then never again. There's no like, okay, let's freeze this
48:28
Speaker 1: frame and let's let's show you in detail. Okay, let's
48:31
Speaker 1: rewind it. They don't do any of that. It's just
48:33
Speaker 1: like this guy's like, yeah, yeah, we saw it on video.
48:36
Speaker 1: It was clear as day. They set the fires themselves.
48:38
Speaker 1: You see it for a second and a half and
48:40
Speaker 1: then it never comes up again. And when that happened,
48:42
Speaker 1: and I was like, eh, I want to kind of
48:44
Speaker 1: go into more detail on that. You're you are making
48:47
Speaker 1: a very specific claim that they set the fire and
48:50
Speaker 1: they killed themselves in this fire. Like I think it's
48:53
Speaker 1: worth at least a thirty second deep dive into this
48:56
Speaker 1: footage that you keep referencing, and we don't even get
48:58
Speaker 1: to see it, so that I think that's a perfect
49:01
Speaker 1: example of things people are saying, but we don't really
49:04
Speaker 1: get any sort of concrete proof for evidence or anything
49:08
Speaker 1: that would even back it up. So if you don't
49:10
Speaker 1: believe them at their word, you don't get anything else
49:13
Speaker 1: to base it on. All Right, Waco American Apocalypse sink
49:20
Speaker 1: or swim.
49:21
Speaker 5: I'm gonna have to give it a sink. And not
49:23
Speaker 5: that it's not a good watch. It's a good watch.
49:26
Speaker 4: It's entertaining, well put together, as there's hidden gems in there,
49:31
Speaker 4: good stuff to take. But I just don't like the narrative.
49:34
Speaker 4: I don't like the story they're telling. It just falls
49:36
Speaker 4: apart to me. It's like there's no middle ground at first.
49:39
Speaker 4: It makes it seem like you're gonna get this like, Okay,
49:42
Speaker 4: I'm gonna get the ATF you know, the official side verse,
49:45
Speaker 4: like maybe a couple different thoughts from like the Branch Davidian,
49:49
Speaker 4: you get a couple kernels of truth in there, or
49:52
Speaker 4: like their other thoughts, but then predominantly it's painted as like, yeah,
49:57
Speaker 4: David Koresh was gonna drink the kool aid, he was
50:00
Speaker 4: going to Jim Jones everyone. It was the plan from
50:02
Speaker 4: the beginning, and that's annoying to me. I gotta give
50:06
Speaker 4: it a sink.
50:07
Speaker 1: Same here. I think this one gets a sink mainly
50:10
Speaker 1: because I didn't really learn anything new from it, And
50:14
Speaker 1: part of that, I guess is a little unfair because
50:16
Speaker 1: we've seen so many Waycot documentaries at this point. I
50:20
Speaker 1: don't know how much more I was expecting to learn
50:22
Speaker 1: from it. But they don't really do a great job.
50:24
Speaker 1: They do a great job of adding drama of kind
50:28
Speaker 1: of stirring up some like thoughts without actually putting their
50:33
Speaker 1: stance anywhere. And I think that this particular documentary series,
50:37
Speaker 1: even if they didn't go full on defend the Branch
50:41
Speaker 1: Davidians or full on defend the government, they could have
50:44
Speaker 1: emphasized the absolute disarray and sloppiness that occurred between the
50:50
Speaker 1: FBI and the ATF, and that kind of gets brushed
50:53
Speaker 1: under the rug, and in its place is you get
50:55
Speaker 1: these like heroic tales of the sniper and this like
50:58
Speaker 1: badass guy. And then I just I was hoping and praying, like, hey,
51:02
Speaker 1: it's not that the same guy that was at Ruby
51:04
Speaker 1: Ridge that also went sideways. Let's hear more about that.
51:08
Speaker 1: And of course we don't really hear anything about Ruby
51:10
Speaker 1: Ridge in this one because it's specifically about Waco. But
51:14
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the extra kind of detail that
51:16
Speaker 1: would have made this short series worthwhile. If anything, this
51:21
Speaker 1: feels more like it was created just to further perpetuate
51:25
Speaker 1: the official narrative, so that in fifty years or one
51:29
Speaker 1: hundred years, when AI is scraping all the different content
51:32
Speaker 1: about Waco, they come across this Netflix series and they're like, Oh,
51:36
Speaker 1: this was always going to go sideways. Branch Davidians were crazy,
51:39
Speaker 1: Koresh was a lunatic cult leader the end, and this
51:44
Speaker 1: just kind of helps put a nice little bow around that.
51:56
Speaker 4: And you know how you do it, Go to Paranoid
51:58
Speaker 4: American dot Com. Get you a comic book right now,
52:00
Speaker 4: go to kill themockybirds dot com support, subscribe, share, thanks
52:05
Speaker 4: this Under the Dogs, Peace, under.
52:14
Speaker 3: The Dogs, Yeah, under the Dogs, very favor. We're breaking
52:20
Speaker 3: the locks. Funny could they original the shots say the
52:26
Speaker 3: Dogs under the Dogs.
52:29
Speaker 2: Mondon the Dogs, Yeah, under the Dogs, Under the Dogs
52:58
Speaker 2: chest something.
53:04
Speaker 6: Just by something from parent, nor Americans by something just
53:15
Speaker 6: by something from parent, nor you American gets.
53:19
Speaker 2: Some merch by some art dealing at to cars.
53:24
Speaker 6: Say you're back.
53:26
Speaker 2: Need that print now your head.
53:28
Speaker 7: You've consent by your comic three your phone, Think to start,
53:34
Speaker 7: I one more, buy your stick from the store, think
53:38
Speaker 7: the start.
53:39
Speaker 4: I want more.
53:42
Speaker 2: By something.
53:47
Speaker 7: Just by shotthing from hearing nothing American, just.
53:52
Speaker 2: By shouting, just.
53:58
Speaker 7: By shothing paring noid American, p no.
54:10
Speaker 8: No, I screwbled my life for wag drifting. The right
54:15
Speaker 8: page will any light to bring? If you're the flight
54:18
Speaker 8: of the plane, paper, the highs, a blaze, somewhat of
54:21
Speaker 8: an amazing feel. When it's real, the real, you will
54:24
Speaker 8: engage it. Your favorite the pouse, the lord of an arrangement.
54:27
Speaker 8: I gave you the proper results to hit the pavement.
54:30
Speaker 8: If pave your emotional hate may be your language.
54:33
Speaker 1: The game.
54:33
Speaker 8: How they playing it well without lake because evading, whatever
54:37
Speaker 8: the costs, they are the shape shift thanks gin, the cappetated,
54:40
Speaker 8: That is the apex executional flame. You walk ookular bombs
54:44
Speaker 8: distributed a war, rather cruising.
54:46
Speaker 5: For eyes to see maxim out. Then I light my trees,
54:49
Speaker 5: blowing off in the face.
54:51
Speaker 8: You're despising me for what throat calculated did, rather cutthroat
54:55
Speaker 8: paranoid American must be all the blood smoke from real Lord,
54:58
Speaker 8: give me your day, your wave. They wait around that
55:01
Speaker 8: hate whatever they say, Man, it's not in the least bit.
55:05
Speaker 8: We get heavy rotate when a beat hits some things
55:08
Speaker 8: because you.
55:08
Speaker 5: Will uncle nickers for well, you welcome.
55:11
Speaker 3: They ain't ever had a deal.
55:13
Speaker 8: You welcome, man, They lacking a pill.
55:16
Speaker 5: You welcome, Yet they going it's still You're welcome.