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Katie Woolf spoke with NT Shelter CEO Peter McMillan · 360 with Katie Woolf

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  Speaker 1: But joining me in the studio right now is Peter McMillan,
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  Speaker 1: the CEO of NT Shelter.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning to you, pere Katie. How are you?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: Really well, great to have.
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  Speaker 1: You in the studio. And you and I have spoken
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  Speaker 1: before about some of the issues we've got around the
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  Speaker 1: Northern Territory when it comes to housing. It does seem
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  Speaker 1: to me as though the situation is becoming a bit
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  Speaker 1: more acute. I think you might say. We've spoken a
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  Speaker 1: little earlier this week to the Master Builders about the
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  Speaker 1: scrapping of some of the incentives for first home owners to.
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  Speaker 2: Get into that market.
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  Speaker 1: Last week we spoke to Laws and Broad about some
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  Speaker 1: of the concerns that people are having when it comes
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  Speaker 1: to paying rent and and being able to actually access
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  Speaker 1: rental properties. Again, this is something you and I have
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  Speaker 1: discussed before. But Peter, where are we.
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  Speaker 3: At well, Katie, there's issues right across the spectrum, and
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  Speaker 3: maybe we're going to start with the lowest income people,
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  Speaker 3: those that really can't afford to rent in the private market,
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  Speaker 3: even if they can find a place to live, those
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  Speaker 3: that can't afford it. So that's what public housing is
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  Speaker 3: for public housing as we know, just isn't working. We
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  Speaker 3: have around around thirty years of age for most properties.
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  Speaker 3: Around eighty six percent of the public housing stock is
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  Speaker 3: thirty years or older. It hasn't been maintained, it's run down.
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  Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people can see that for themselves,
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  Speaker 3: so that model's not working. We've talked a bit before
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  Speaker 3: about community housing, which is a really important opportunity, and
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  Speaker 3: we can come back to that if you wish to.
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  Speaker 3: And then in the affordable market rent, these are people
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  Speaker 3: like you know, many of your listeners that aren't working
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  Speaker 3: in top dollar jobs, right, they're people that can't afford
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  Speaker 3: the market rent. They can afford around maybe seventy five
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  Speaker 3: to eighty percent, and that's where affordable housing comes in
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  Speaker 3: as well. So there's a big shortfall of that. And
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  Speaker 3: if we just look at someone else that was done
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  Speaker 3: nationally recently, the estimation is that there's around seventeen thousand
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  Speaker 3: houses that were going to need out to twenty thirty six.
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  Speaker 3: So that's what's that fifteen years time for social and
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  Speaker 3: affordable housing alone. Now, putting that to one side, we
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  Speaker 3: then start to look at people that want to come
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  Speaker 3: to the territory and make the territory their place. To live,
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  Speaker 3: whether that be Catherine or Darwin or elsewhere. And we
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  Speaker 3: had an example yesterday where one of our organizations in
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  Speaker 3: Alice Springs had a CEO that was due to that
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  Speaker 3: was going to sign on to a job and couldn't
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  Speaker 3: find a place to live and decided not to come
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  Speaker 3: across the NTE. Now, if we're trying to attract people
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  Speaker 3: to live here, not everybody is going to take the
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  Speaker 3: plunge come up and buy a house in a town
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  Speaker 3: or city they haven't seen before. Right, They're going to
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  Speaker 3: want to rent. I mean, I know that's what my
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  Speaker 3: wife and I did when we came. We just thought
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  Speaker 3: where would we buy and would we like it up here?
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  Speaker 3: So renting is important. And when you have so many
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  Speaker 3: stories and I think everybody just about that I've spoken
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  Speaker 3: who has a story of a neighbor or a family
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  Speaker 3: member where their rent's gone up twenty five percent, that's
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  Speaker 3: a big problem because people are leaving the territory. I'm
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  Speaker 3: sorry to say. You know, when we're trying to grow our.
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  Speaker 1: Population, you know, that's something that really concerns me. We
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  Speaker 1: talk so much about growing the territory and so much
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  Speaker 1: about trying to grow our population, but if we've got
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  Speaker 1: nowhere for people to live, it's simply going to be impossible,
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  Speaker 1: isn't it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, let's talk about population.
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  Speaker 3: It's a figure that might not be on front of
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  Speaker 3: everybody's mind, but maybe your listens will be a little
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  Speaker 3: bit surprised to know that the Northern Territory Government, so
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  Speaker 3: the Treasury and Finance Area, have projected a territory population.
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  Speaker 2: In twenty forty six. That's twenty five years from now.
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  Speaker 3: Sounds like a long time away, but they're actually looking
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  Speaker 3: at three hundred and fifty one zerousand territories. Now, that's
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  Speaker 3: an increase of forty three percent.
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  Speaker 2: Where are they going to live?
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  Speaker 3: Peter, Well, that's right. I mean, that's the obvious thing,
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  Speaker 3: isn't it. I mean, you know whether those forecasts are
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  Speaker 3: just at their forecasts, right, But even if they got
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  Speaker 3: it out, if they got their estimation out by fifty percent,
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  Speaker 3: you're still looking at, you know, a twenty five percent
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  Speaker 3: increase in number of people. We've got to start building them.
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  Speaker 3: We've got to start planning for that. What's interesting is that,
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  Speaker 3: you know, Dave Malone and Master Builders are seeing reduction
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  Speaker 3: in building certificates being issued under their Fidelity fund around
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  Speaker 3: thirty months now, and it was up around seventy five
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  Speaker 3: seventy to seventy five back in March. So there's no
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  Speaker 3: doubt that work for tradees is coming off, and social
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  Speaker 3: and affordable housing is the public is a perfect opportunity
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  Speaker 3: now to start getting into because when the economy is down,
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  Speaker 3: when demand for housing and confidence in your economy is low,
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  Speaker 3: we know that we need to build this housing right,
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  Speaker 3: and we need to there's a perfect opportunity now to
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  Speaker 3: get on to some of that stuff to keep our
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  Speaker 3: tradees and other labor force employed.
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  Speaker 1: Peter, when you talk about social and affordable housing, can
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  Speaker 1: you differentiate for us what that means, because quite often
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  Speaker 1: people think when we say social and affordable housing that
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  Speaker 1: it's just those public housing homes. But there is actually
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  Speaker 1: different sort of tears or different different kinds of housing
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  Speaker 1: that we're talking about here.
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  Speaker 3: Isn't there That's right, So there's different categories. Maybe I
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  Speaker 3: can just plaining lesh try and explain that for your listeners.
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  Speaker 3: So public housing is of see, the housing that's provided
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  Speaker 3: by the governments in each state and territory, and most
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  Speaker 3: of our housing in a northern territory I think is
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  Speaker 3: about ninety six percent is public housing that's run by governments,
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  Speaker 3: but the other six percent is what we call community housing,
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  Speaker 3: which is run by not for profit organizations that are
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  Speaker 3: in the business of working with people, building communities and
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  Speaker 3: also providing housing where they can get common rent assistance.
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  Speaker 3: So the government, the territory government cannot get commonwealths rent assistance.
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  Speaker 3: So that's money for low income earners up to one
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  Speaker 3: hundred and seventy eight dollars per week up per fortnite rata,
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  Speaker 3: depending on their circumstances, a number of kids, how much
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  Speaker 3: rent they're paying. There's a macknus of maximum figure. But
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  Speaker 3: the principle is you can't get that into the system
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  Speaker 3: in a NORN territory when it's provided by public housing
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  Speaker 3: providers by governments, but you can get that money. It's
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  Speaker 3: around thirty one million dollars a year we're missing out
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  Speaker 3: on by not having community housing deliver housing for those people.
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  Speaker 3: So typically people in that category will play around twenty
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  Speaker 3: five percent of their income as rent. It's it's for
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  Speaker 3: people who are unemployed or other sort of income support.
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  Speaker 1: Payments well presumably as well, if you've got people in
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  Speaker 1: that market and they're not needing to go into the
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  Speaker 1: public housing market. That it takes some of the stress
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  Speaker 1: of public housing as well, does it.
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  Speaker 3: So at that level is a substitute for public housing.
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  Speaker 3: But they also these community housing providers also provide product
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  Speaker 3: that's in the affordable housing markets. How affordable is typically
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  Speaker 3: I think like I mentioned before, where say I'm, for example,
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  Speaker 3: working in retail, I can't afford to spend five hundred
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  Speaker 3: dollars or four fifty dollars a week on my rent,
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  Speaker 3: but maybe I can pay eighty percent of it.
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  Speaker 2: So there are programs. There is a subsidy, but there's.
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  Speaker 3: A program where housing can be provided at better cost
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  Speaker 3: than market and are there is a program that's been
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  Speaker 3: around since almost since two thousand and nine. I think
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  Speaker 3: it's being welln back, but there were actually official programs
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  Speaker 3: for that across Australia.
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  Speaker 2: And then so.
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  Speaker 3: If we think of what we call as social housing,
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  Speaker 3: it's really the combination of that community housing run by
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  Speaker 3: a non government sector and public housing.
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  Speaker 2: Katie, I've got a story as.
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  Speaker 3: To why it's really important community housing, and we had
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  Speaker 3: a session this morning with developers and architects and builders
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  Speaker 3: in town community housing.
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  Speaker 2: Providers because they're charities.
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  Speaker 3: They can get big tax concessions right, they don't have
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  Speaker 3: to pay gst you don't pay stamp duty. They can
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  Speaker 3: get Commonwealth ren assistance. Modeling has shown that if you're
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  Speaker 3: spending say one hundred million dollars on a housing program
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  Speaker 3: that's spent by the government, you might get around two
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  Speaker 3: hundred houses built if government does it, but if you
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  Speaker 3: get community housing providers to do it, you can get
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  Speaker 3: an extra fifty five houses. It's not a bad return
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  Speaker 3: on your investment because these organizations can work with developers,
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  Speaker 3: share the benefits of the tax deductibilities I have. And
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  Speaker 3: also what's really important is thinking around what do we
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  Speaker 3: want our communities to look like. Housing doesn't have to
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  Speaker 3: be old rundown shacks. We want to build communities where
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  Speaker 3: there's connected communities whereas there's the opportunity to have small
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  Speaker 3: business there close to transport and a blend. I guess well,
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  Speaker 3: people who are at normal price points that they can
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  Speaker 3: afford to pay, as well as affordable housing, keyworker accommodation.
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  Speaker 3: Really communities that are working effectively. We don't have that
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  Speaker 3: at the moment, but now that Infrastructure Australia has recognized
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  Speaker 3: housing for the first time as being key economic infrastructure.
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  Speaker 3: That's a big tick for us all really in the
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  Speaker 3: last week because now we can start having the conversation
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  Speaker 3: that we just don't need to provide housing because people
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  Speaker 3: don't have a home, and which is important obviously in itself,
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  Speaker 3: but we can also start saying, if you're investing in housing,
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  Speaker 3: it's just like any other infrastructure like roads, buildings, other
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  Speaker 3: things that's going to help our economy grow and importantly
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  Speaker 3: have some way for people to live when we grow
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  Speaker 3: a population.
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  Speaker 1: Well, when you were talking about that just a moment ago,
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  Speaker 1: and you were saying, you know, when you talk about
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  Speaker 1: retail workers and some of those different types of like
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  Speaker 1: I've often thought that to myself with some of these
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  Speaker 1: jobs that are quite difficult in terms of filling at
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  Speaker 1: the moment, even you know, in hospitality in some other areas,
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  Speaker 1: it would be really tough moving to the territory at
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  Speaker 1: the moment unless you're a young person who can live
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  Speaker 1: in a sharehouse or whatever.
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  Speaker 2: There's no way to live, can I say?
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  Speaker 3: You know, if you flick through those Facebook pages, you know,
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  Speaker 3: dal on rentals and things like that, you'll see young
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  Speaker 3: women in bikini's doing anything they can really just to try.
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  Speaker 3: It's shocking really the lengths of people have to go
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  Speaker 3: to to try and get a house above somebody else
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  Speaker 3: at the moment, even to rent a room house.
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  Speaker 2: Isn't that tough? Peter? You know we are going to
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  Speaker 2: have to wrap up.
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  Speaker 1: But where to from here? I mean, what do you
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  Speaker 1: think realistically we need to sort of try to have
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  Speaker 1: a look at right now to try and get things
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  Speaker 1: moving from not just a conversation but to actually happening.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that's that's a very important question. First of all,
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  Speaker 3: we need to have the right people in the room.
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  Speaker 3: I was talking to Greg Island the Chamber of Commerce
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  Speaker 3: yesterday about this, and we have conversation with Dave Malone
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  Speaker 3: and the community housing sector and government.
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  Speaker 2: All the time about this.
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  Speaker 3: And what we're really pressing for is let's just get
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  Speaker 3: a plan so that we can see where we're going
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  Speaker 3: from here. You know, the government said they're going to
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  Speaker 3: release I think it's I forget the number. I think
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  Speaker 3: it's twenty four hundred lots down in the Parmer scenario
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  Speaker 3: and also down in our springs. They're going to release land.
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  Speaker 3: But what can we do to make sure we get
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  Speaker 3: that right? So it's got the right infrastructure in place,
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  Speaker 3: it's got the right amenity like shops and transport as well,
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  Speaker 3: and it's got a mix of housing at different price
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  Speaker 3: points that the population can afford.
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  Speaker 2: So it's great.
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  Speaker 3: The budget last yuphn Inity government referred to these land releases.
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  Speaker 3: Let's get on with it and let's start getting people
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  Speaker 3: around the table saying what'll look like and where we
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  Speaker 3: can get the money from. There are options that won't
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  Speaker 3: go into that today, but there are options, and we've
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  Speaker 3: just got to roll up seat and keep moving on this.
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  Speaker 1: Well. Peter McMillan, it does sound to me as though
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  Speaker 1: you and I will probably have to have more regular
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  Speaker 1: catchups because this housing issue, it is something that I
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  Speaker 1: can see is becoming a bit more prevalent for a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people at the moment.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks Katie. Look, it really is an opportunity.
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  Speaker 3: I know it's a pretty bleak story for many people
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  Speaker 3: out there at the moment, but you know, the territory
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  Speaker 3: story can be positive. It needs to be positive, but
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  Speaker 3: let's not leave housing out of the picture.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, good on you, Peter. Always great to catch up
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  Speaker 1: with you. Thank you so much for your time this morning.
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  Speaker 1: That's Peter McMillan there who is the CEO of NT
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  Speaker 1: Shelter And look, it is a discussion. I think that
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  Speaker 1: is well worth having