Latest / Putting Is Fun / Side Saddle Putting with Sam Osborne: Snead, Bryson, and the Stroke the USGA Tried to Kill | Ep. 9

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Side Saddle Putting with Sam Osborne: Snead, Bryson, and the Stroke the USGA Tried to Kill | Ep. 9 · Putting Is Fun

• speaker-0: You can find your Santa be a straight shooter train yourself to respect the three-footer Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab your time rolling putts will surely be fat Putt putt putt just like it seems you can drift away and chill in a dream Putt with your bros go soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone spitting facts putting is fun speaker-1: Yes, sir. And it's more fun with three people instead of two. Today, folks, we have not only our beautiful co-hosts, John Ortega from Costa Mesa, California, but we have our co-host from the fabulous other funnel podcasts called No More Lies, Sam Osborne coming to us from what town in Wisconsin there, Sam. speaker-2: ⁓ I'm in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. ⁓ got rained down. ⁓ well it's close to the border of Illinois, so it's about a couple of hours from Chicago. speaker-1: The what? Cool. And you were gonna not do be able to do the show today for our first, you know, ⁓ interchangeable guest hosts, ⁓ but you were playing in a tournament at Aaron Hills and it got rained. speaker-2: Well yeah, so it wasn't Asia tournament but it's always ⁓ you know ⁓ a a a great day if you get to go out to Aaron Hills. So I'm happy to be here but I'm also a bit sad that we got rained out. So ⁓ but ⁓ but yeah, looking forward to doing a ⁓ a ⁓ three person podcast for the first time. So yeah, it should be fun. speaker-1: Absolutely. And Johnny, what's the weather like there? It's always like redundant. speaker-0: Well, it's been warm up until today. It's like 76 So we're back to close to normal But it was like high 80s early 90s and humid and everybody was complaining and it's like you have nothing to complain about if you've been to other parts of the world you went Florida where it gets hot and sticky it's it's always nice here, so we're spoiled what I speaker-1: yesterday to film ⁓ the outdoor segments of episodes sixteen and seventeen of the ⁓ Brian Banzela show and there was no saving me after I was out there for an hour. I mean I had to go straight to the showers. I wore a shirt. I had you know in my locker at English Turn, I had a shirt that was like seventeen years old. It still looked good. Put it on. Had a fresh pair, had a fresh pair on these thank God. And off off I went. Right. I mean no, I mean I I w I was not prepared to shower, but I do have extra clothes there and I didn't realize how low my supply had gotten. So speaker-2: That's a good tip by the way. Anyone that ever plays a US Open sectional where you play two rounds in a day, ⁓ I used to do it in Florida. ⁓ that's a game changer at lunchtime. If you like head to toe take a whole change of clothes, ⁓ and the amount of people that don't do that ⁓ is crazy. So any other you ⁓ younger guys going out there and doing the US open sectional in Florida. speaker-1: Did you shower and everything too? speaker-2: ⁓ I I never had time because it was slow, you know, it's so slow, so you know, it still made speaker-1: But fresh clothes, you know, fresh clothes make a difference. Yeah, you ever did that, Johnny, in between in the qualifier switch? speaker-0: No, I haven't tell you during the circuit about change of clothes so I I always have a change of clothes in my backpack when I go out to a golf tournament because we When you get to be 60 years old, you just gotta be careful about what should happen speaker-1: You never know. speaker-0: So Preston Jake's agent, goes, what's in that bag? You really wanna know? Okay, so I have a what's in the bag that coaches what's in the bag. speaker-1: Old man supplies. speaker-2: Exactly. Enough said. speaker-0: You can't be too careful. speaker-1: Today on the show, besides a threesome, we are going to talk about alternative putting. Specifically first, side saddle putting. And why would we just randomly have side saddle putting on today? ⁓ because Sam, you are putting side saddle. How long have you putted side saddle? speaker-2: It's it's probably eight years now. Maybe maybe a bit longer, but it's eight, nine years, something like that. Well speaker-1: All I remember is from that lesson when we went out an English turn in two thousand nine and we went on a golf course and you buried six out of seven holes and got and then had lunch and got in an airplane, you were rolling in eighteen footers like it was nothing. So what I mean, obviously you just people don't go to side saddle, cross handed, l arm anchored. Nobody does that if they pick a putter up and it goes in. So did it Just stop working or what what happened to you? speaker-2: So I remember that day with you, ⁓ and you had a look at my stroke and said, No, you know, I'm not you know, I don't want to touch that. And I never had a terrible stroke or anything, but I was a little bit over mechanical. I was quite obsessed with getting everything just right and my stroke never felt great. The only way it felt great was when I could just not think about anything, which I found very difficult to do and and didn't last for me very I needed some little key. So obviously I would have good putting rounds and so on, but I wasn't a consistently good putter, which then means that you analyse a bit more and then you get too maybe a bit too deep into it. speaker-1: Did you ever get yippy? speaker-2: No, so I d I never really yipped it, but I would have enough bare putting rounds to where I was sick of it. So ⁓ long story short, when I stopped playing professionally, which was ⁓ the end of twenty sixteen, I thought, you know, it's like a whole new world opened up to me because I don't really care how I play anymore. I can sort of fall around a bit. So I thought, well, my my granddad, who pretty much taught me the game when ⁓ I was very young and just starting. We would have little three footers and he really loved Sam Sneed. ⁓ so he would always say, you know, Sam Sneed's got the best swing, you can beautiful rhythm. And then on the little three footers, he'd say, You can just tap him in like this. You know, this is legal. Sam Sneed does this. So I'd I'd done it a little bit over the years and I'd always been a bit intrigued by it. So I thought, Well, that's fun, you know, nobody ⁓ which is apt for the show. I thought that's more fun than what I'm doing because I'm so speaker-1: Because it's because it's different. And I wanna get into the the the specifics of it but I want John to wait. Have you ever I I I we can talk about the Bryson side saddle putter thing, but did you ever try it? When and why when and why? speaker-0: I Well, when Bobby Schaefer convinced me to help him make that putter that Bryson and he used, I thought, hey, if I'm gonna be part of this, ⁓ when did Bryson turn pro? Must been five years ago or so, six? don't know. It was pre-COVID, pre-COVID. So since I was part of that effort, I guess you could say, I thought I'd give it a go. And I thought it was pretty good. But I'm still confident, even though I don't play very much golf anymore, with just, putting conventionally. So I would choose to putt conventionally if I were trying to game something. But it works great. I putted pretty good with a long putter too, just standard long putter back when you could connect. ⁓ speaker-1: So so just to do the quick version of that story, so so Schaefer has put it that way for a while, correct? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, he's amazing. speaker-1: Pull pull your hat up. You you you're too good looking to cover it all up. So right. So you y so Shay for fifteen, twenty years of it, right? Basically. speaker-0: Yes, yes. speaker-1: Because I'm sort of recalling that when I he first was on my radar, he he might have even been doing something alternative putting putting wise. Now, when you made that putter, we can go into more of it later in the show, but it was a it was a s what what length was it? speaker-0: For Bryson, I believe it was right around 40 inches. speaker-1: It was a longer one. So Sneed putted with like a thirty five inch. So what about you, Sam? You've got you you started with one kind of and then wound up going through the speaker-2: Yeah. So I've run the gamut on all the different lengths, but the first one that I tried was longer. So, you know, fifty something, fifty two, I think maybe. So it's up near my chest, you know, sort of rocking back and forth. And that I was interested in trying to get the shaft completely vertical, ⁓ which is I think how speaker-1: The stories we can tell. No, but that's right. There's there's some part of that to it, part of it. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, but but there there's there's I I mean I I have an arc of what I thought and what I now think, you know speaker-1: So how long is the one that do you game now? speaker-2: Forty three, I think it is. So it's no it's it's it's much more ⁓ you know, the start is much closer to the sort of Sneed. Yeah. Sam Sneed start. speaker-1: So okay, so let's let's do this real quick. So I had a similar experience that you had with your granddad with my dad. He would put his one footers side saddle with a regular length putter and say, as he would do it, sneed. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. That's empty. That's great. Yeah. Right. speaker-1: So so I had, you know, I'm a little kid and I'm learning to play golf and it's kind of fun and I tried it. So I I don't know why I thought it just shows you funny how you think when you're younger. I really thought I was gonna make it as a player. You know, like I'm talking about like way before I turned pro, before I played college golf. And I thought that I would ruin my stroke just to show how silly you are when you're a kid. And he had a lot of silly adults out there in golf too. But I thought if I putted at putt-putt and not just the brand puttputt, but any miniature golf, that I would ruin my stroke putting conventional. So every time I went putt-putt, there was a a you know, a putting place that wasn't putting, but it wasn't too goofy. And there was a couple of tournaments they had there. My dad beat me in both of them, which I thought was unbelievable because He I felt like I was a better putter than him, but he he choked less than me. So I putted side saddle, but I did it with like what you would think. I actually had a Wilson Augusta. You have any of those in there, Johnny, in the in the in the ⁓ collection? Or Wilson Augusta is the Wilson version of the Bullseye. speaker-0: Yeah, I've got one in my storeroom. speaker-1: I had a Wilson the Gosta because I emulated my idol Johnny Miller and the knock knead and the whole thing. So, okay, so that was my I never did it on the golf course for a whole round of golf. I've done it for pieces of rounds when I was putting terrible and I went, might as well side saddle a couple of them. Yeah. And it it's running the gamut. Now, for the folks that don't know what the heck we're talking about, here's a quickie little primer. Okay. Sam Sneed, who never had a great stroke, by the way, you can watch that sixty-five Shells Wonderful World of Golf. It it wasn't the greatest. Yeah. That's the worst putting exhibition of all time by two of the five best players who ever lived. I mean, they're putting twenty footers on these flat Houston Country Club Bermuda Greens, and they could have pulled somebody out of the audience on every hole and hit a better putt. There's no doubt about it. So anyway, at some point Who knows? West Virginia, right? Blue Ridge Mountain. Right. So he started putting croquet style. He put put one foot on the line, the other side one foot on one side of the line, one foot on the other side of the line, and put the ball right in the middle and boom, you know, holding the the top of the grip, thumb on top, and boom. And he was really good at it. And he had a couple of good finishes after not, you know, it wasn't that much of a factor, maybe 'Cause he was putting bad. And famously at the time, the United States Golf Association president was a guy named Joe Day. D E Y, who later in 1974, 68, 68, when the tour split from the PGA of America, first tournament division, and then a completely separate company in 74. In 74 they hired Dean Beam and he was the first commissioner. But the first commissioner of any kind in that tournament players division in 68 was Joe Day. Well, this is before 68. So Sneed's putton and it's some kind of tournament. And who's there sitting next to Joe Day? Poor Sneed. Bobby Damn Jones. And Bobby Jones said that didn't look like golf to me. And on Monday morning, Joe Day c changed the rule. That's how fast it was. There was no hearing. No committee. Okay. So then as the rule came down, it it it it was okay. But you could say you couldn't have one foot on one side of the target line and one foot on the other. So you had this you could put any kind of way you want, but you gotta stand to one side or the other. So Sneed just took his right foot, moved it over, and just putted side saddle. So Croquet outside of his right foot, right handed putter. Now, yeah. It should be noted, he never putted as good side saddle as he did croquet. And I think I remember, John, you can correct me. You would remember something like this. There was an interview. He said he would have killed them if they would have let him, basically. He would have eventually gotten way better at it and would have killed him. That's what he but he did finish. They had that high finish in ⁓ I think the 74 PGA at maybe Inglewood or some some course. He finished like fourth or whatever at I don't know, sixty two years old or whatever. So he he could and then he kept playing senior tour and all that. He put sides out and he was a fond putter. So then, right? And y'all Please correct me if I'm wrong. Nobody really did it on tour much at all. Do you remember any others, John or Sam? speaker-2: No. Well well I I ⁓ I've speaker-1: Anywhere. Could be you could be in Europe, you know, where you speaker-2: Yeah, no, for ⁓ I've done plenty of research on side saddle butting because of ⁓ for personal reasons. ⁓ but ⁓ the only one that I found was K J Choi did it for I think one round, perhaps two rounds in ⁓ you know, ⁓ a fairly normal as ⁓ but I think it was just a bit too much for him. I I think he knew that it worked, but it it's speaker-0: That's the great thing. speaker-2: Taking it standing in front of other people the first time, especially as a PGA tour player, is is it's another thing entirely. So ⁓ but other than that, really not, no. ⁓ and Bryson, of course, but ⁓ that was just in that fun shark shootout thing. So speaker-1: You speaker-0: No, he did it on tour. He did it on tour. Yes, about five tournaments. Yeah, for sure. speaker-2: I don't speaker-1: Yeah, so we're gonna get into that story right now, but but but right before you tell the whole story, Johnny, do you remember anybody else putting sides addle besides Sneed and you know anybody locally, anything? speaker-0: Not so much somebody that's gonna be like a tournament player like a professional no no only Bobby Yeah, only Bobby Shaffer. Yeah, very good player, but he's amateur always speaker-1: Mm-hmm. But but he was a pro at some speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, but he didn't. Yeah, carry on John. No. speaker-0: So Bobby, Bobby he putted long putter facing the hole but not like face on. He'd look you know at the hole kind of like Jordan Spieth. So that's the first time I saw him do something different than just conventional. ⁓ put it pretty well that way and then you know when when he started putting face on he likes to call it face on instead of side saddle. I don't know why he gets offended by when you call it side saddle. Okay face on. It's kind of like with blades and mallets. We got to go non mallets. speaker-1: So so what was he putting with putter wise when he calls you up and say, I got this idea for you to build me a you know act build the whole putter. What was that about? speaker-0: He was using a leading edge. You know which one that is? kind of like a Fang putter. Kind like the Joe Corvey. Do you remember that one, Sam? speaker-1: That's your that's your department now. You do you know anything about the leading edge side? speaker-2: I don't know that one. No. speaker-0: It was it was kind of a belly putter mostly guys on the senior tour like Larry Larry Loretty you on the US Open. Yeah, he was using one of those and I think some of the other guys I can't remember all of them speaker-1: So this wasn't a dedicated side saddle head. speaker-0: No, it was kind of a long putter for people that use a long putter. So it was you know, 10 degrees or whatever you're from vertical so 80 however you want to measure it, but so you started with that and then you want me to tell the story about how it came about? I just want to make sure I'm not you know, speaking out of turn here. Okay, so when one day sends me a Text and it's a half of a coffee cup like a therapy coffee cup with a shaft in it speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: He goes, do you think you can make this for me? I'm like, we already made it, it looks pretty good to me. Like, I don't know what you're, what are you talking about? I don't know, I was like, okay. So, I referred him to somebody. Yeah, it was like, it was like this. It was like that, half of that. speaker-1: ⁓ O Y. Round round. So he sends this round thing to you with a shaft stuck in it, a picture, and says, Can you build me one? speaker-0: I didn't really know what he meant too much by it. So I called him and he gave me the idea. said, well, if you take this thing and you set it to the vertical, it'll kind of look the same any way you set it, whether it's 10 degrees or zero or whatever. I all right. So I passed him off to somebody else. I don't want to name this person. But the guy, he actually made something that looked like an iron that you iron your clothes with. I don't know how he came up with that from what the picture was. Bobby came back to me, he goes, hey, come on, will you do it for me? And I reluctantly ⁓ accepted. And it was a nightmare. It was a complete nightmare. But he got his putter and Bryson used it for a little bit. ⁓ He didn't putt that well with it on tour, and that's why he stopped. I think a lot of the problem was, A, he wasn't hitting the ball really well when he first went on tour for whatever reason, maybe just nerves. And then second, the USGA and the PGA Tour, they hated. the whole situation with that. So they gave him a lot of problems. said, okay, this is non-conforming for this reason. ⁓ yeah, yeah, so I was jumping through hoops. I was at the PGA show, different places, and Bob would say, hey, you gotta figure out a way past this. I'm like, ⁓ God, see, that's exactly why I didn't wanna do it, right? But eventually, ⁓ it got conforming, whatever letter that it conformed. speaker-1: Gave you a lot of problems. speaker-0: And so Bryson went out with it, didn't putt all that well with it, and so he canned it after, I don't know, five tournaments. But he had his moments in the sun. But Bobby, if you see him putt with it, he's like, I wanna try that. Just probably like with Sam, when you're on, you see a guy that faces the hole, that makes so many putts, like you probably do, or Bobby does. I would play with him one time at the palms. He birdied eight holes on the front nine. Eight. And it's not an easy golf course. It's actually the plantation, sorry. So that's where Bryson got intrigued. He saw how well Bobby putts. And Bobby, I'll try to stay centered here, but when he does it, he has a really short one and he kind of rocks like this. So it's almost like he's pitching coins. Like you probably do it a little bit more steady and stable, right? speaker-2: Yeah, so so there there's a few different I've I've discovered there's a few different ways of of doing it. ⁓ and I'm at the point where I'm sort of bent over a little bit, you know, kinda like Sneed. ⁓ but ⁓ because I've got a shorter putter you know, and I have the it whatever the angle, you know, ten degrees off vertical. Sure. But I can get my eyes closer to being over the ball. Whereas with the longer putter and if you stand it upright it's very hard to get your eyes over the ball and see the line because you lose your balance. So that as but I ba I basically my arm is the only thing that moves, so it's just boom boom. And and like you said, it's funny because I play a decent amount with ⁓ normal, let's say normal amateur golfers nowadays, any handicapped from scratch to fifteen. And ⁓ so many of them are it just can't you know, they're like, Can I ever go? You know, how'd you do it? speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-2: Yeah, and it's it's fun, you know, it's it's kind of a quirky thing. ⁓ but ⁓ but it it can you know, once you get your eye in, ⁓ it's really good. But what I will stress is it's not foolproof. Even though I think it's a great technique. speaker-1: It's definitely nothing nothing foolproof. That now my my experience with trying to do it and because I mean it the best I ever putted, Langer Grip saw the kind of but really bent over pretty far from the ball. Looked so bad that famously the the Ben Doyle story, he's p saw a video of me said, What's that? I I'd rather miss it. He didn't like the way it looked, right? I I Yeah. It didn't look that good. But at that time, my golf swing, however effective it was, wasn't pretty. And I wasn't in the best shape I was ever in. I was 33 years old, but I mean like the whole thing was like it was ugly, but the whole thing was ugly. So it all fit in, right? When I started trying to make the langer stroke look normal, like it get the right posture and all that stuff. It the magic never ever came back. I mean one round at a time, you know, even now, right? Even though I've been putting very conventional lately, but I've probably already jinxed myself. But that doesn't matter. When I tried Side Saddle, and and I've taught some people, I don't know if you ever ⁓ ran into ⁓ Tyler Garrett, who played a lot, you know, he's a 40 ish year old guy that, you know Started trying to play late, played college basketball and worked with me for a while in his game, worked with Sean Webb for a while in his game. Good player, good swing. You know, just hard to start late and you know, be like you trying now, starting now, like never having done it before. And he putted with what I would say is a modern side saddle putter. And it and and it was out of whack. I mean that he had a couple of them because he ran them down, but whatever. brand that was that that had gone out of business. And then I gave two or three, four lessons to Lucas Black, who played whatever part he played in the movie with Robert Duval, where Robert Duval is sort of his teacher. And he's putting side saddle. And he he didn't putt side saddle in life in real life. Right. Right. But I I speaker-2: Seven days in Utopia. speaker-1: I showed him that I could do it one day. He was kind of like you should you should do it. I said, Well, you should do it. You're the guy that was another. But there is a let's talk about the equipment element right now. ⁓ it seems like all the side saddle putters, again, you guys know more than me. Modern side saddle putters, last 20 years, made four side saddle, all very long. They they all expect you to do the straight standing up thing. And speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-1: The only way I can putt side saddle and say, okay, can you go break 80 at the City Park South course right now? Sod saddle. Yeah, I'll go ahead and I'll try to do it. Here's my John Ortega ⁓ whatever. What kind of what is this ski pole shaft that you told me to get when I was trying to putt, you know, the the whatever you call broomstick. And you would think that's pretty good. I cut it a little bit, and I haven't putted with it that length broomstick. But the point is, it's very comfortable at whatever length that is. I would say like 40 inches, 41 inches. Very comfortable to put sides out. I can't put Can't beat anybody. Terrible. speaker-2: No, yeah. Well I speaker-1: At around thirty six or seven I I I have a clue. speaker-2: Yeah, I I would defer to John on this because I I don't know that much about putter technology, but ⁓ in my experience with side saddle, it's more about how it goes into the head because ⁓ you've got a different you know, the the the force is different because you're standing the way you are. ⁓ it either has to go be center shafted straight into the middle of the head, or ⁓ you've got a f kind of one that's built for side saddle like Bobby Grace does. But ⁓ but What do you think about that, John? speaker-0: I haven't seen the Bobby grace, but does it have like a double band shaft for like face balance or is it? speaker-2: Yeah, so so he he playfully calls it the ass kicker shaft. ⁓ so this one speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's face it. speaker-2: ⁓ let's face it because as as ⁓ John said, they call it ⁓ face on putting these days. speaker-1: Show us the back of it. So we so it's kind of a tr for the folks that are just listening, and we're holding putters up, it's it's shaped like a kind of a a ⁓ triangle, but if you squared off the back of a triangle, right? You got the long side, you got the two points coming to a point. If you chop that off, that's what it looks like. It looks like a big hunk of metal, and there's a what kind of shaft, John, would you call that? Just a single bend? speaker-2: And speaker-0: ⁓ I would say it's a single bend and the objective is to get the shaft pretty much where it's mounted pretty much in the center of the CG or thereabouts. So you see how it's like forward-back, it's close to center both ways and then he did a little swoopy thing so that the extension of the shaft kind of hits the center of the putter, you know, side to side. speaker-1: The front is the front's closest to the face. speaker-0: I speaker-1: front of the shaft. So when you look down at the putter and you look down the shaft, the shaft looks like it would go in like a eighty eight ⁓ two or a a an answer at li it but it it doesn't. It goes in the middle of the head. speaker-0: Yeah, but is it angled forward too? The shaft does it have some lean to it? speaker-2: It i it is slightly, yes. ⁓ so again, for those listening at home, the the shaft i you know, once it gets within a couple of inches of the head, swoops back so it's right in the middle of this punch. speaker-1: So if it didn't swoop, just to I'm not tired to interrupt like I always do, but if it didn't swoop, it would go kinda in the middle of the head close to the face, but the swoop brings it to the speaker-2: Right in the middle of of of it. But but the the the shaft does lean forward slightly and you can actually use it as an arm lock, you know, kind of in the langer style as well if you want. But obviously then you can run into some loft issues, but but it ⁓ I barely any. There might be ⁓ you know, one degree of loft. I haven't measured it to be fair, but ⁓ I've used it a lot. ⁓ speaker-1: How much loft? So the the the putter that you design that you did for Bobby and and and ⁓ and Bryson is called what? What do you call it? speaker-0: It's called a design by Bobby Schaefer because I wanted nothing to do with it speaker-1: How many speaker-2: Many did you mate, John? speaker-0: think they were close to, I don't know, 60 or 70. It wasn't like quite 100. But they were pretty cool because they were made out of tungsten. was like the whole head was made out of tungsten. speaker-2: Huh. They don't use that very much nowadays, do they? speaker-0: Yeah, it was an exotic metal. think it was titanium, solid titanium. Sorry. speaker-1: Wavy. speaker-2: 'Cause I I try really hard to find one, ⁓ and I couldn't find one. speaker-1: If you were eBay folks listen, if you eBay searching, you're looking for a design by Bobby Schaefer side saddle putter. Yeah, putter. No, he would get mad. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-2: I yeah I tell you you you won't find one, Brian. I've had that on my search, on my eBay search for about eight years. So good luck everyone. speaker-0: So some guy hunted me down that wanted one and he wanted the square shaft and I told him I only have one it's you know, it's kind of racked speaker-1: What we're talking about, what we're talking about. Square shaft. The shaft is square? speaker-0: Yeah, was a graphite shaft that was square. I forget what the name of the company was. He just thought this was the best thing ever. He calls me all the time, he goes, hey, let's make some more. I'm like, dude, come on. Stop it, stop it. But he's crazy enough that he'll do it. And then, I don't know, probably talk me into talking ⁓ KBS into making some square graphite shaft. think the graphite chaff was 700. 700. It was expensive to make, so you got to charge a lot, plus there were a few. And then there were deaf guys that wanted it, because they see Bobby, you know, and all good. speaker-1: No band in the shaft. speaker-0: No, just straight up right into the center. actually Bill Pressy, when I talked to him about it, he goes, you that was too close to, you know, to be like, whatever, you know, like zero torque. He goes, but it was a little bit off. So if I wanted to sue you, because I wouldn't have won. It goes, if it would have been a little bit closer, I would have sued. like, I don't know what you'd be suing for it. Cause there wasn't much money behind the whole thing anyway. speaker-1: think that that ping putter, the br the ⁓ Windham Clark would be a good side saddle putter. speaker-2: Yeah, I like the heavier ones. ⁓ but it yeah, I in theory I I would imagine that it would work nicely, yeah. ⁓ here's my gamer, ⁓ which is the another ⁓ Bobby Grace, and you can see that the the shaft it goes straight into the head. speaker-1: Closer to the face, not much like a lab. Yeah. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: What does he call that one? I forget. speaker-2: ⁓ and this one's just got a a fairly ⁓ a fairly boring name. It's ⁓ an F twenty two. So you can speaker-1: Amazing grace. Yeah. speaker-2: Yeah, so the Amazing Grace was the original head and this is an F twenty two version of it. ⁓ and ⁓ I I had this actually had this refurbished earlier this year to make it cool looking. ⁓ but I also put a different face in, but which I got from from Bobby Grace. So that was cool. ⁓ but ⁓ but yeah, that's the one I use and that's forty three inches. ⁓ but that's kind of the fun of this style is that you can play around with different lengths and slightly different methods of stroke. and speaker-1: You have the you have the left hand thumb on top. speaker-2: Yeah, so you know that ⁓ so technique wise, the main thing for people at home and that if I try and show this to a an amateur, ⁓ most people will stand kind of halfway between their normal addresses. Surely what the the one thing you need to do is just point your body at the hole, forget about putting for a second, just look at the hole and face the hole. And then you have to sort of crunch your right side to get down to the ball rather than trying to turn to face the ball. ⁓ but yeah, th left thumb on top and then w when you grip it with your right hand, you could put under hand like Sam Sneed. I I have sort of a pencil ish grip, ⁓ which I find more comfortable because ⁓ then my arm is sort of going straight up and down the line. ⁓ and then from there, no notes, just keep doing it and it's dead easy. It's like shuffleboard, you know, it's speaker-1: Have you ever captured anybody, John, doing it? speaker-0: Yes, guy named Jason Bittick. speaker-1: Yeah. How did he do on Sam with with Side Saddle? ⁓ speaker-0: If my memory serves me correctly, should say it's pretty good. I think Sam was confused. Not you, Sam, but Sam Putlamp. It was so vertical. Maybe because of the uniqueness of how he was doing it, I'd have to look on my report, but I think it was all right. He's a really good player, so I'm sure he made it work. He's making almost every putt, so by default, it had to have been pretty good. speaker-1: So w how much loft did the one did the the design by Bobby Schaefer putter do? speaker-0: One. Yeah, they wanted to do zero and I'd say fine, whatever. But Bryson, he had some ideas. He wanted one that was like five or six degrees and he wanted one of the heads to be made like 970 grams or something. like, dude, this. speaker-1: I have a two-part question here. When am I remembering right that when Bryson DeChambeau did it, he anchored it on the right arm as well. Is that how Schaefer does it? speaker-0: He did. No. So Schaefer, when he teaches people, he has them put it on their chin. You can't do that because it's anchoring, right? But he has them do it on their chin. That's mostly the pivot point, right? So then he just tells them just move it down an inch and do whatever happens from there. And as Sam said, you said take no notes. That means let your brain kind of be free, right? So when he does it, it looks like he's not. thinking about anything he's just like pitching coins and that's why he has that little body rock thing but I don't think he'd tell people to body rock this is have it right here and then move it like this back and through with the right arm and yeah speaker-1: What made Bryson what made Bryson anchor it? Read the Dave Pell's book? speaker-0: No, no. So when I first gave him one, he was doing it, if you want to call it conventional, like you're standing up really upright and he had like a 50 inch one and he was just right arm back and through. I'll send it to you sometime, Sam, it's pretty cool. And looked great. And then when it kind of came time for him to, you know, put it into play, he just bisonized it. He had to put it up his arm. had all these reasons why, like, you know, fewer degrees of freedom or whatever. It just looked really stiff to me, but. But he made it work, he's just one of those guys that can practice so hard at anything, he can make anything work. like I said, when he brought it on tour, they just gave him too tough of a time. The USGA and the PGA tour, they just teamed up, they just like gave him, like they tortured him basically. So he just stopped, which was good. speaker-2: Yeah, I I believe it, you know, lots of lots of people's initial re ⁓ reaction when they see me putt on the first screen is, you know, isn't that illegal? You know, all that kind of stuff. Because it is funky, I and I know it ⁓ it looks crazy. But ⁓ the interesting thing about it is that in the sort of thirties, forties, fifties ish, ⁓ there was quite a lot of people that were putting croquet style. ⁓ really? Yeah, and making bizarre looking putters so that they could putt croquet style. ⁓ you know you have speaker-1: I mean obviously it was four scene. speaker-2: No, I mean good players but not ones that we would know. Right. But sure. But good amateurs and things like that. And and it we it wasn't like Sneed came up with it out of nowhere. There were you know, there's probably two or three at everyone's golf club, you know, that's a guess, but ⁓ it it appears from all the stuff that I've read, there's it wasn't uncommon, but then the second they did that the ban, ⁓ that was it. I as you said, ⁓ nobody ever sort of did the side saddle version. ⁓ after after you couldn't do the croquet. ⁓ what I can confirm is that the croquet style is easier. speaker-1: Yeah. I think so. speaker-0: Did you ever see that putter that was super short? guy had wrote a book, it was called Missing Impossible. speaker-2: Yeah, that fillion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I remember that. And and he said you move your finger up and down the shaft depending on how long the part was, right? speaker-1: Trevi Travellian? Travelion All? speaker-0: Yeah, something like that. I had a couple of those that I got off eBay. And they're really, really cool. I don't know what I did with them. I loaned them to somebody, maybe a kid wanted it and I gave it to him. But the point is, there are lot of different ways that people can putt once they've kind of run into a dead end. In your case, you didn't have the yips, you just weren't making enough putts, right? speaker-2: Yeah, and I was Yeah, and I was sick of being in my head. So the second because it's such a different style, my brain has no memory of ever missing a part like this. So I was starting from scratch. It was amazing. speaker-0: Now let's say if for some reason you just got tired of doing what you're doing and people saw you putt really well with ⁓ your face on putter and they said, hey, will you teach me how to do that? And you became like a face on putting specialist. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. Somebody's gonna do it one day. speaker-2: Yeah, well I I I don't know if ⁓ when Brian was talking about ⁓ the US GA and you know how they they they they didn't want people to do it, ⁓ it made me wonder speaker-1: But they they didn't want Bryson to do it because Bryson was gonna make it look worse. I think if Bryson w if if if if this is my opinion, John, shoot me down. If Schaefer would've had a different idea and it was much more conventional, A. And then B, that more conventional, no like the two Bobby Grace putters, but something, you know, the different. But speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: A little bit more conventional. And Bryson would have just putted like Sam Sneed with a little longer putter. I think they'd have been not they wouldn't have liked it. The the fact that it was this putter that obviously was skating around the fact that it's supposed to be 10 degrees, but there's enough radius where it's you could put it at zero and the guy's got it on his arm, and it doesn't really talk about not looking like golf. It didn't look like golf and they just were worried about this guy anyway, because he's different and he's kind of a wild hare. And being different and a wild hair, I know how people treat different people who are different and wild hairs. And they make up rules that don't exist for people like me and him. And that i is that am I crazy? Am I too much of a conspiracy theorist? speaker-0: I don't think so. It had a lot to do with the USGA giving its, whatever you want to call it, conforming status. And then when it went out there and he was using it vertically, I think that was kind of the main driving force behind them squashing him using it that way. But I think you could be correct if it was a little less unusual. Not that it's conventional. But a little less unusual, he would probably have, I don't wanna say skated, but I think they would have not gone after him as hard as they did. But let me ask you something really quick, Sam. Now, let's say you go back into, like say you become like the face on guy, right? Would you ever recommend to a kid to just like, hey, why don't you start out this way and you'd be good to go? speaker-2: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Would you would you speaker-0: Would you have your kid do it if you had a kid? I don't know you have a kid. speaker-2: Yeah, I don't have any children, but if I did, ⁓ yeah, I I mean I would I would let them choose however they wanted to putt, but I'd say give it a go. Like kind of like my grandad, but with a a bit more oomph, you know, I'd say, All right, we're gonna play this round, we're gonna do ⁓ side saddle or face on putting. ⁓ you know, it's just gonna be for fun. ⁓ and see how they do. But I think technically, ⁓ assuming that you you know, you get your body right, like I said, and and you can keep your balance. It's technically superior, ⁓ I mean, there's no question. It's just whether you can get over the sort of stigma and and then have some feel. But to be honest, the interesting thing about it is everyone says, ⁓ short butting must be so easy and it is pretty easy most of the time. But speed putt my speed is so much better with this ⁓ style of butting. ⁓ when I was putting the normal way, I would, you know, sometimes you just take it back and then you think, ⁓ you gotta get it there or whatever and juice it or you know, the opposite. But this style I I I don't look at at the hole. I still look at the ball. Yeah, I think it overall it's a it's an incredibly good way to putt. ⁓ speaker-1: It would be super neat, right? ⁓ there was just a party a year ago. It was the 60th anniversary of ⁓ the mall my wife runs and the also this maybe 70th anniversary or 100th anniversary of the county, which we call parishes here. Something like that. It was a the two anniversaries. So they had this big to do, right? Fancy gala, everybody dressed up. I might have been in a tux. Look like a look like a a bad waiter. And ⁓ but I I I worked the golf booth. We had a putt putt booth. You know, I didn't work at the whole town, but you know, why wouldn't I? Right. My wife runs them all. And it was it was a tough putt. I I mean, like you if you would have gave us four or five each, we buy we bought them between us. That's let's say the twelve putts, we might have made one or two. Okay. Yeah. So the regular people had no chance. They're just that that they bought this thing someplace that makes them and ships them, whatever. Okay. But let's assume that it would have just been a straight on twenty footer, fifteen footer with a w you know, night flat as a pancake. And I would have done just this little thing, you know, like, okay, come over here and you know if you and then plenty of them had never putted because there's no putt putt places in in this basic area. There's one at City Park. It's hiding in the trees, nobody even knows it exists. Well, I was a kid, we go on dates and we go to the putt-putt, you know, golfing games and play 36 holes, and girls did it all the time. So there were people in dresses and and suits that wanted to get into this contest that had never putted regular. And I'm, you know, trying to just let them do anything that kind of looked like they had a chance to win that prize. But had I taken all the people who were, you know, odd number birthdays and taught ⁓ the non gol the non golfers and taught ⁓ something like a regular stroke. And all the people with even number birthdays I taught ⁓ side saddle with a p side saddle putter. I I I think that for people who are non golfers, it's a quicker speaker-2: ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: It'd be an interesting test. speaker-2: Yeah. The the the the hardest part is you've got to ⁓ for a a golfer that's learning it, you've got to sort of forget golf for a second and think about like shuffleboard. You've seen the sort of old people at old people's homes playing shuffleboard, you know, they they scoot it across the ground, ⁓ and ⁓ you you don't see them worrying about the line. All they're trying to get is that distance. And that's the same. You're standing straight on, then you've got to get down to the ground somehow. ⁓ but then it's just ⁓ you're just moving your arm. And you just think, you know, how how hard do I want to hit it? ⁓ and I I I did do the Sam Putt Lab when I first started doing it, but I wasn't quite as good then. But basically it you don't want to get too obsessed with it, but the head goes back straight back and through and the face basically doesn't rotate. But I think Bryson probably got a bit obsessed with the second part, the the face non rotation. You should j really just forget it. Once you get the setup, forget. the technique. It just does it automatically because of how you're standing. But yeah, it's it's it's very simple. ⁓ and I think, like you said, non golfers would probably pick it up quicker than than golfers, ironically. speaker-1: So if you were making a you know, not saying you're not getting back into the putter making, but if you were gonna make it ⁓ in the putter in the in the new John Ortega ⁓ putting world, if you were gonna make a side saddle putter now, w w what would you do? speaker-2: Yeah, that's a good question. speaker-0: I would have one of my friends promise not to show me that he's gonna shoot me in the head and then have him shoot me in the head. That's what I do. speaker-2: ⁓ you got no interest? speaker-1: B gun. Little B B gun. Just a little B B gun. Not not nothing to speaker-0: But let's say like somehow. speaker-1: What is that little guy? speaker-2: Th so so this is one ⁓ his name's GP Dion. I think he's French, French Canadian, but you can see it's a tiny head and the reason for that speaker-1: Kind of wing back like like the like the Odyssey putters, you know with the wing back. speaker-2: small low profile head and this is designed to be held upright. So it's it's got ⁓ zero loft, I think, because obviously it's not flat on the ground. So you don't want it to squirt off to the right. ⁓ and and very shallow and very small this way. So that the toe isn't sorry, the heel isn't ⁓ we almost saying the the heel isn't ⁓ way off the ground. But obviously you have to hit out of the middle. ⁓ But but that that's one that reminded me somewhat n it's not it's not the same obviously, but somewhat of of that concept that ⁓ that perhaps Bobby was was thinking of. speaker-0: Yeah, Bobby's head was really small like that. you know, to me, like it would take a little while for somebody who's not real skilled to hit the center of that thing, because it's pretty small. speaker-2: Pretty small. That's the issue I had with that one. I ⁓ I I thought because it's straight up and down that's just gonna go perfectly every time it's not the case. It's in practice, it was very different from my imagination, unfortunately. But speaker-0: And now when it comes to like, let's say somebody is at their wits end with their putting, would you recommend facing the hole before the long putter or kind of a 50-50? speaker-2: Well, I had a friend that ⁓ didn't have the yips but was a terrible putter. He sliced across every putt. Never n would never make a six foot ⁓ six footer if it was for nothing. and I switched him over about six years ago and he hasn't looked back. Like it was and it was it was a ten minute session. I gave I gave him a putter, I told him what to do and that was it. And speaker-1: He's still putting with the same putter? speaker-2: No, he's got a new one because he saw something on Instagram. But of course. But he's still still putting the same way and he does fine. He holds his fair share and like ⁓ you know, night and day from how he used to be. ⁓ and ⁓ so yeah, I I I would if somebody's really ⁓ struggling and they ⁓ I would say that this would probably be quicker than going down different grips and or the long putter route. ⁓ particularly because when it comes to the anchoring thing, you can clamp your arm to your side. You can't put your forearm on your chest, but you can clamp your arm up to the elbow on your side and then, you know, this do the left hand doesn't have to move, so it's it's it's pretty easy. speaker-1: It's interesting that the USGA has all these new like anchoring. Like you can't anchor it all the way up your arm. Yeah. Like it has to like br even Bryson's putter. It looks like it's all the way up his arm, but it it has to come off the arm, right? speaker-2: Yeah, just it has to be below the elbow, I think, right? speaker-1: And it looks like he's, you know, do it is I think he's a I think he I I just cannot imagine that he couldn't putt better some other way. That's the that's the by when I watch him putting, I've seen him putt good. He obviously he's won a couple majors, but it's it's one of those things where what I would say, you know, kind of to wrap up the the side saddle part of this, and I won't we'll we'll finish with other crazy alternative methods, is that It's a pretty easy try for people. Right? You could just go online, you could say Sam Sneed side saddle putting, watch it. And then just side saddle putting, you know, and then you'll probably see some other people doing more modern standing, more up. And then just take one of your putters. Everybody's got more than one putter and just try it. Just go out on the practice putting green, putt around the clock, go over to Coast of Mesa, getting that little game that Johnny Steals money from all the little kids and and they steal it back. speaker-0: Even steal it from me speaker-2: Yeah, just fall around. Like it's you know, this is this is what ⁓ I did, you know. I I wanted putting to be fun again and it's and it and it has. It's made a huge difference. ⁓ and I never think about my stroke ever now. I don't even make practice. speaker-1: So if we're gonna eliminate regular putting, you know, regular, you know, conventional stroke, cross-handed, anchored, reverse arm anchored, like like ⁓ Cooch is doing now, ⁓ broomstick and side saddle. Are there any other weird putting methods that you've seen that people that are desperate and wanna have more fun putting? speaker-2: Yeah. Well, Mike Hulbert putted one-handed for years. I remember that on the PGA tour. So, you know, just one hand. speaker-1: There's our boy ⁓ Paul Christiana from Lombardy, you know, I I don't know if he plays that way, but he I ⁓ if you there's hundreds, he has hundreds of videos on on ⁓ Instagram and seems to me that when he's trying to knuckle down and make one, he like puts his arm on his left leg and steadies it with his right hand and Bip Yeah. And he's a really good putter that way, which is you know, with a conventional putter. But I'm just trying to think of other crazy methods. that I've seen over the years that ⁓ can you think of any of ⁓ Johnny? speaker-0: The only one I can think of is, of course you have the Scheffler, whatever they call that, the saw or the claw or whatever, but I've seen people, they do ⁓ like a left hand low, but they're holding it with their left hand, like with a claw on the backside, but they've cinched it enough where they can basically, they look like they're left hand clawing, but they're actually putting right handed. So I've seen that that looks weird. There's a guy actually who played the European tour that he has both hands like that. His elbows were out. like, ⁓ my God. What's his Tom Lamour. Tom Lamour is the guy's name. Yeah. I've seen that, I don't know that he putts that well that way, but he definitely catches some attention for sure. speaker-1: Yeah, that guy had your day over there. Two saw, double saw. When I tell this story, the folks listening or watching and listening are gonna think it's made up, but it's not. There was a guy on I swear, like the the NBC Nightly News or something like that. And he played golf. He he was a frustrated hacker golfer. He turned his left hand upside down and he played that way. Well, let me tell you're not gonna slice it. It's just So there was a there was a pro, ⁓ a former pro at this golf course. I'll leave the golf course ⁓ name out of it. The guy would see me and say, No, I said, ⁓ yeah, I remember the guy. And and yes, I remember that, you know, whatever the guy's name was. I'll think of it. Old pro. And by the way, golf digest, like a month later, had a sequence of the guy doing it. nasty as hell, but okay, I got. speaker-2: Yeah, I saw it. speaker-1: So he said, Well, do you do you still have it? I said, Yes, somewhere in all this. This is pre-Katrina. So Katrina's 2005. So I used to have these, these white, ⁓ clear with a white top, like target ⁓ bins, storage bins. And I had all these and then it all got ruined. But anyway, I had the sequence. I just didn't know where I had it filed. It was somewhere underneath the guest room bed and one of the five of these things I have. Anyway. Every time I would see the guy. Do you have it yet? No, no, no. So we gotta remember now, home was New Orleans. I'm teaching in Louisville. It wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like I could go home that day after seeing him and look for it. I got an apartment in Louisville. I'm coming home every you know eight or nine days. So the third hole of this golf course, one, two, three, maybe fourth hole, whatever, comes back to the clubhouse. And then the fifth hole goes. The fifth hole might have might have been the first hole at some point. You know, they got courses like that. I see the guy, he's playing the the fourth hole. I'm going, ⁓ shh, because I'm gonna have to tell him no again, right? So because I'm thinking of that, I turned I'm putting, you know, langer, I turned the right hand upside down, the right hand upside down, and Just without even looking at the ball, putted one that way. And I flushed it. Yeah. Not looking at the hole, not looking at the ball, looking down the fairway at this man that was 85 years old and looked at and I was gonna have to tell him for the tenth time, no sir, I didn't have the pictures. Okay. So then I putted a couple that way and I went, huh. So I putted that way for three years, langer. with the right hand upside down. So it had like a T a T and I'd push you'd push it through. So one day at the show in that big giant practice putting green where I remember Bill Presse had his p didn't even have a booth. He's just walking around with his putter. John Ortega gave Nick Tominsky a lesson on the practice on the you know that the the the community practice putting green at the show. I'm on that practice putting green with all these little putters that you know these little like that booths but they you know they have their little set ups and I'm grabbing people's putters and that's the way I putted then. And there was this Hispanic or Cuban Hispanic little dude looked like a caddy. I don't mean that in a disparaging way. Just didn't look like a golf pro, but he he looked like he was in golf. And he goes, Hey, you show me what you got there. I went, Yeah, well, you ⁓ yeah, I even half told the story I just told. And I hit a couple, he goes, ⁓ I like that. You know, no, no, no, no, you gotta put it up against your ⁓ okay. Well, okay, so that's the that's January. Okay. So I go to Dural with David. This guy is on the putting green teaching it to KJ Choi. And Choi used it to tournament. So that guy took my crazy grip. Bill Brunsman might have been the pro's name. I just remembered Brunsman, Mr. Brunsman. That I just accidentally kicked and I actually putted that way for a while and putted pretty good. You know, not as good as the other Langer before Ben Doyle ruined it. The point is. Within the rules, there's a lot of little things you can try to do. And the best thing I tell people all the time, and I've done this in the Manzala show when we've been out on the golf courses, don't go down like a punk. It's just try something. Try something. Get a longer putter. You know, I think there's a lot of people, ⁓ Johnny, that would putt better with a thirty-seven or thirty-eight inch putter that are like, you know, five foot ten. They just stand up like Ray Floyd. Do you know how long that putter was that he putted great with when he the U ⁓ speaker-0: Yes, 38. 38. speaker-1: So he's like a s he was like a six foot guy, right? speaker-0: Maybe a little bit taller, but yeah, six to six, two. speaker-1: I mean he was standing ⁓ and man the guy putted the friggin' lights out that way. speaker-0: And lots of wrists. Very wristy. That's one thing. I gave a putting lesson the other day to some Chinese girl and the guy that's her handler, goes, she's using a lot of wrists. I was like, okay, well, she's making a lot of putts too. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Yeah, let's not mess with it. speaker-1: And and and it it should be noted, you know, as we wrap up here today, ⁓ this has been a lot of fun, threesome here. ⁓ well that we have to have Johnny on our show now, Sam. That's it. The slightly more controversial show. ⁓ much more controversial. The ⁓ b the basic thing I would say is that side saddle putting is something that if you're not a good putter, and even if you're a pretty good putter. speaker-2: Absolutely. Yeah. speaker-1: You should at least give it a go on the practice putting green because there are probably, I don't know, I ⁓ I think ⁓ Bill, our CEO of funnel, ⁓ and there's a hundred and forty-eight million people who play some form of golf that's including never been on a golf course, just playing it in a sim, period. a hundred million probably on the course. There's a good fifty, sixty thousand people putting. ⁓ but that's not that's a low numbers, Johnny in the putting business would tell you that the the ⁓ you know, putting successfully enough, ⁓ side saddle putting. And and ⁓ you could be five thousand you know, fifty thousand and one, but that's not enough to make the putters though. That's the thing. speaker-2: I think there's definitely ⁓ you know, a significant amount of golfers that could putt a lot better if they gave it a try. ⁓ I know it's pretty wacky and it's not for everyone, but it's worth trying, even if it's just for fun for half an hour on the putting ground. speaker-1: So what what says you, Johnny? Wrap us up. speaker-0: I say I'm going to go in the back room and get the Bobby Schaefer putter out and cut it to my length and do it. Sam, you got me inspired. That's what I'm saying. speaker-1: Whole bunch of fun and let me tell ya be a straight shooter. We got a pretty good theme song, Sam, this this one's speaker-2: Yeah, this is not good speaker-1: See ⁓ y'all. speaker-0: Makes me laugh. Alright boys, this has been real. Let's drift away. Alright, same same. speaker-2: Time. speaker-0: Indeed.