Latest / Surviving-ISH Podcast / Monsters, MAGA and Cults: From Church Pews to Political Rallies w/ Dr Sandra Cox & Jenny Smith

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Monsters, MAGA and Cults: From Church Pews to Political Rallies w/ Dr Sandra Cox & Jenny Smith · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, guys, welcome to Surviving Ish.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think today we're going to call this episode Surviving Unholier-Ish because we've got Ginny with us, who I know that you all know and love from Unholier, but we also have a good friend of ours who's been on the show multiple times, Dr.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Sandra Cox.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is gonna be an episode where kind of Ginny's world and my world collides, and Sandra's gonna be a part of it, and we're gonna talk about the psychology behind cults.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love this.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited, and it's so great to meet you, Sandra and David.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's always fun to be with you.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm very excited.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: David has said so many good things about you, and of course, I always enjoy having time with David, and he's he's a wonderful friend.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know I can't wait to uh come to California and see you.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's gonna be so much fun.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: I want to come.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: No doubt, no question.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're you're going.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, good.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a lot of my listeners, uh Sandra, already know you because you've been a guest.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is like your third or fourth time with me now.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: But do you want to give a little bit of like uh just a a back summary um of who you are so people understand where this information is coming from?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I am a psychiatrist.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: I um have been practicing since residency for now 30 years.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of hard to say because I feel it makes me feel really old.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I've done a lot of different things in psychiatry.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been through kind of the gamut of community psychiatry, state hospital work, private hospital work, private practice, kind of all of it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and now I own and operate uh two TM, actually, soon to be three TMS centers, transcranial magnetic stimulation centers.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: But my interests have been varied, of course, and you can't be a psychiatrist without understanding psychology.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not a psychologist.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: I did go to medical school.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I started out in OBGYN, I switched to psychiatry.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: You have to understand psychology to be a psychiatrist.
• 2:29
  unknown: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: So what is the difference between psychiatrist and a psychologist?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just that one can prescribe medication or so psychiatrists go to medical school.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And when you go to medical school, you can go to residency in any number of different things: surgery, family practice, psycho uh psychiatry, internal medicine, all of that kind of stuff.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: But psychologists go to college.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I always say their route is harder, I think, because they then go to graduate school and then they have to write a dissertation to become a doctor.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: They have to write a dissertation, present that in front of a committee.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very, very rigorous way to get your education.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: But um, both ways are hard and we would learn a lot.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's the difference.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Psychiatrists don't go to medical school, therefore they don't prescribe medications.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so they're both dealing in the mental health space, though.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I want to throw this out.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Ginny is the host of Unholier, like a lot of you all know, and and at the time of this recording, which we're gonna get this episode out pretty quick, she's been releasing it, I think it's what, a total of three, maybe four parts of your story because you come from the IFB, the independent fundamental baptist cult.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and your family was actually kind of the fan some of the found founders of this cult.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so I would love for the listeners if y'all are not following Unholy, I would love for y'all to do that and check out her story.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I got to uh go to Florida, spend some time with Jenny, and we actually recorded it in person.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was the guest host on her show, interviewing the host.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, so it was really cool.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of fun.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of fun.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Sandra, I want to start out with this question.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I one of the things that I like about me and Jenny when we have this conversation is I don't come from a cult.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I have some religious trauma, but nothing like a cult religious trauma, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of interesting to see and hear both of our perspectives.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's start out with this question.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a certain type of personality that gets targeted?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it like a moment in life?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that we have to be cautious about trying to lump cult members into a certain type of person because that can sort of start to resemble victim blaming, if you will.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um but people who are drawn into cults typically are at some point in their lives or some point in general societal history that causes them to feel isolated or scared or uh in need of support that they don't have.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so that vulnerability is often what is targeted by cult leaders and other cult members who are now indoctrinated and really, you know, living by the doctrine of the cult.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you join a cult, what typically happens is you are love-bond.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I want us to bring this back.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: We've all had over the past decade, let's say, I'm not gonna relate that to anything in particular, um, lessons in narcissistic abuse and lessons in what a narcissist looks like and what their tactics are.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and cult leaders are typically narcissistic, but tend to be more than just narcissistic.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: They tend to fit in what we call the dark triad, narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we can talk more about that in a little bit, but they are very they are masters at just looking at someone.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: They in fact they can just look at someone on a dating profile, just a photo, and they know if you're a good target.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost it's almost like the uh the hunting sense of a shark, if you will.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: They know their prey.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the the typical cult member starts out as someone who is very good-hearted, um, but really fits into kind of the opposite, the light triad is empathetic, is forgiving, wants the best in others, and or wants to see the best in others, and that's what gets targeted.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I do I do want to say thank you for helping helping me along with that question, because that there is an ignorant side of me to things, to especially to this type of world, and I would never want to victim blame.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you teach me so much.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for that.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I'm not blaming you, I'm not saying that that's what you're doing, but but I do this has been a turnaround in my own thinking recently.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I think a lot of us are angry about some of the things that we see happening right now in our world, and we want to blame the people who become victims of a psychopathic Machiavellian narcissist.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good point, and that's something that I'm trying to uh inherit and learn from.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Someone had told me one time that the reason, and I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but a lot that a lot of people join gangs because they're looking for a father figure, they're looking for the the brotherhood, they're looking for everything that you just mentioned.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: They just need some kind of security blanket, and then it ends up being destructive.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, but a gang is not considered a cult, right?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are still two different things, but it's the same kind of it with with the word mentality.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: It can be considered a cult.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it can, most definitely, because of the indoctrination into the gang and the need to give up your independent thinking and your critical thinking in favor of what the doctrine of the gang is and the lead that who decides that?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: The leader of the gang.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting point, David, with gangs.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you really brought out a good point, Sandra, about saying that the people that often are in cults are in the light triangle, where they are very empathetic, they are very for forgiving, they are generally good people, right?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: They're good citizens in society.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: So when you think in terms of, I came out of a cult.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I can see those types of people.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: I still have family members that are in the cult.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: I have family members that are in a certain political cult that um we're kind of touching on a little bit.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I, it's hard for me to go right for the jugular when I'm talking about this stuff because I know that deep down they are good people.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: They're just brainwashed.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like they they think that their decisions and that their truth is that's the end of it.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's no anything outside of that is not truth to them.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it's hard for them to understand where anyone outside of that cult mentality is coming from.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when we are able to have a civil conversation with people and show them that this other side over here that you think is, you know, the dark side, there are good people over here too.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Then if you're able to have those dialogues, those civil dialogues, then maybe that would open up their mind a little bit and say, maybe I was wrong about those people.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they are good people on the other side too.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I can open myself up to have those kinds of conversations with them and hopefully then break down those barriers.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really like a goal that I have with my podcast and just talking to people in a way that is gonna get them to just lay down the armor, you know, just lay it down and say, okay, let's have a conversation and hopefully open themselves up to other possibilities.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: I hear you and I see you, Jenny.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I hear what you're telling me.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna learn it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying my damnedest, okay.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: We him and I have had many conversations.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I love you, David.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I love you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I know you do, and it is something that I want to learn.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm also looking forward to this conversation because on one of the episodes that Sandra and I had together, I had made a comment about how I don't know that I could ever forgive someone who is a part of this Maca cult.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: But Sandra made a really good point to me.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it really has me thinking.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I called Ginny immediately and was like, uh-oh.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having a thoughts now about maybe I should be a little bit more understanding and not completely vote someone off an island kind of thing.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: But so, so, so I'm learning too, right?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and and what I do appreciate about me and is that I know that I'm I'm I'm not perfect.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know that I have a lot of growing to do.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know that I'm gonna make mistakes and I try to be accountable for those mistakes.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I admit to those, I admit to where I'm weak, and I'm trying to fix it.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if everyone could be like me, wait, that's a cold start.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's a cold start.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: While we're on uh one we're on the the roller coaster ride up to the point of being magnanimous, um, I'm gonna take us back down a little bit.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um because if we're going to, you said it so now that you've said it, I'm gonna say it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: If we're gonna start talking about MAGA, um I think we have to acknowledge that they are not a monolith, right?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: They there are members of MAGA that have different reasons for identifying with MAGA.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Pardon me, I talk with my hands all the time.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And some of those reasons are nefarious to you and I.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Their racism, for instance, their bigotry, that maybe they don't want to admit to, maybe they do admit to, but that doctrine of MAGA gave them permission to be out and proud about it.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there are those, there are others that are more like the vulnerable, that needed a place to feel, they felt like they were forgotten, they felt like a certain segments of society, particularly the elite, the educated, had forgotten about them and didn't care about them, and they needed a place to belong.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And here he comes presenting himself as Jesus Christ now, now, most literally, most literally, as the savior, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, he meant doctor.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: My doctor wears those robes with the red, the shawl around it, and yeah, and glows in the yeah, it's it's so funny to me because, and I don't know if this is true or not, but like I've seen people saying online that that they were trying to tell him that to tell people that the pictures were doctored, but all he heard was doctor, and so then he was like, No, I was being a doctor, and I was like, but you like was it a Red Cross doctor that you uh defunded?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think welcome for you.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, now this question, I want to come to it in a it'll almost be a little bit lighthearted, but I think it'll get us to a bigger place.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it was always like a running joke with the world, I guess, that Taylor Swift has a cult, like her cult following.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: But does it ever get to a place, and not necessarily with Taylor, but I guess but in generally speaking, like where would that fine line be when it comes to like a sports team or my love for Reba or someone's love for Taylor to where it becomes like a cult?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I pardon me if I'm talking too much, but you know, I think I think it's important to maybe it's important to discuss the signature, the characteristics of a cult.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a a guy, uh a psychiatrist with the last name of Lifton, who's written eight, what he calls eight deadly sins of cults.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the first one is milieu control.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Milieu just means environmental control.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So control of all your communication.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you go, when you enter a cult, typically the cult leaders uh want to cut you off from the outside world.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: They forbid you to talk with anyone who's not a member of that cult, and they even start to monitor your communication within the cult with one another.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's strong encouragement to just cut off your family if they're not a part of the cult.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it sets up an antagonism against anyone who's outside of the cult.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think with MAGA, we can say that it with the rhetoric of demonizing anyone who's not a part of MAGA over and over and over, that that sets up that idea, that indoctrination, that we should only be communicating with one another.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone outside of this group is evil, they're wrong.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the goal is to make members start to monitor their own thoughts, actually, their own thoughts, not just their communication.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they give up, they give up their ability to think on their own.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's something called mystical manipulation, where the group leader, the group leader is typically very charismatic and presents him or herself as having very special knowledge that you will be that will be imparted to you as a member of this cult.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: You will be uplifted by their mystical powers, whether it be their power to save the world or you know make egg prices lower, whatever that might be, the leader claims.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there's a demand for purity.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: So your group will increasingly call for loyalty, donations of time and money.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: How many of us don't know or haven't heard of some poor little grandma who's living on food stamps, but donates and over and over and over again to some politician or you know, mega church preacher because she believes that's what she ought to do.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: They teach you that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Any actions not dedicated to the cause is labeled selfish.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then the number four is the cult of confession where you confess your sins to one another.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this may not be a part of MAGA necessarily.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Jenny, you may have experienced this where you have to confess your sins, so to speak, so to speak.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you do that many times publicly so that everybody now knows your secrets, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Especially the leader, and that can be used against you.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then there's the sacred science or secret inside information that makes members more special.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: The, you know, these are people who feel isolated otherwise.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when they get brought into a cult, they start to feel they they're made to feel like now you're a part of something that's really secret and really sacred, and you that makes you very special.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's loading the language, so repeated phrases becoming the explanation for everything.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Can you think of any MAGA phrases that have been repeated over and over and are the explanation for everything?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, fake news, that would be the one that I think we've heard the most.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and um the enemy within.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: The enemy within, radical left, yeah, comes to mind.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: During the swamp, strain the swamp.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so that instead of having real explanations for problems or need for solutions, it's always it's this, it's this one little frit catchphrase.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then number seven is the doctrine over person that's gaslighting.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Where, and this happens in families as well, where you know, the parent abuses the child, the child cries, and the parent tells the child, What are you crying about?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have nothing to cry about, you're so sensitive.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or the wife says, Hey, that really hurt my feelings.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't do anything.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: What are you talking about?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this gaslighting.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so your own perspective is rejected, and you have to adopt the perspective of the leader of the cult.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then number eight is dispensing of existence, and this is the most dangerous one, where the leader claims knowledge of determining who's worthy of being saved and who isn't.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where things start to get really dangerous.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's where cults like Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, where there's been mass suicide because the leader has determined that you're not worthy of saving.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Drink the Kool-Aid.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's so crazy to me too that where drink the Kool-Aid or you drink the Kool-Aid has become such a cliche term now that people don't really know where that came from.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Where it came from.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so out of all of these, there was one somewhere in the middle, and I was trying to remember which one, maybe three or four, and I felt like maybe shame what was in there.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I guess when you're talking about having to confess the sins, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: When you're relating it to kind of like yeah, relate relating it to Ginny with what and one of the stories that you know came to mind is when Ginny was put on stage and humiliated, and her family was sitting uh on a row watching it happen and didn't stop.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and what was it, Ginny?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Y'all were sitting and chanting like something was dumped on you all, right?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it was, I was 13 years old.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: I was at a youth camp with our church youth group.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was there, and me and this other girl were called up to the stage, and we were then basically mocked this whole time in front of 800, 700, 800 teenagers.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And they said they were gonna make us a public example because we took care of our parents, and that is vanity, and vanity is a sin.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they proceeded to take these grown men who were like our youth leaders, took a bucket of raw eggs and started cracking them over mine in this girl's hair.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then they were like rubbing it in our hair, and then they were taking like either ketchup or Like raspberry jelly or something, something red, like red.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was all food type materials.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And they were rubbing it on our face, like for blush and lipstick, and just oh, we'll do your makeup for you, we'll make you look, and it was humiliating.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you think about the age 13, like you're like going through puberty, like you're starting to really like take care of yourself and care about what you look like, and your peers' opinions is the break.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And my dad literally sat in the front row and laughed with everybody else in the audience.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I just remember getting off the stage and running back to our dormitory and just feeling for the first time in a long time, since age seven or eight, when I talked about the other story, just completely betrayed by everyone.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Who is there to rescue me or defend me in that moment?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: No one.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt like I just was on an island and totally humiliated.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I still I think I still have some trauma from that, honestly.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because I do not I get stage right like nobody else.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just I and I almost think like maybe I still have some trauma from that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I'm asked to go up and speak or do something, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I can't do this right now.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that's it's horrifying and and so cruel.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry for little 13-year-old Jenny.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: I know, me too.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know, yeah, it's sad.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: It is, but thank you for sharing that with us because uh that was just the one thing that just really came to my mind immediately to kind of like paint a picture for for what we were just speaking of.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: That that shaming is just yeah, and I even had friends too.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I had a couple of friends in high school.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, again, like a lot of these bullet points you're giving.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like checking them off in my head.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yep, that's the way I was raised.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was watching you and I could tell.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then in the confession thing is so on point because I had friends now.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you were isolated to your church group of people.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: You couldn't have really any friends outside of that.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um, a couple of the girls that I went to high school with got pregnant in high school.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, kids are kids.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, things will happen, whatever.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: And they even went to a Christian school.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it still happens, and they were forced to get up in front of the entire church and confess that sin to everybody.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: The odd thing was is that none of the boys ever had to do it.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was just only the females.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, I was mortified for my friend.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what this is the most humiliating thing, you know?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it was almost like the excuse was they have to confess it so then they can be restored.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just a it's a process of public humiliation um to make you feel more vulnerable and remorseful and therefore more dependent on the cult and particularly the leader for trying to redeem yourself and earn back your value in that group.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because you really do grow up thinking that you are not worthy.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, you're told you're not worthy, that you are nothing without God and you are worth nothing without Him.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that's it.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you you are told you you have to deny yourself anything that is pleasurable, you have to deny yourself of that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it be say you want to go listen to rock music because you like to dance.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you can't do that because that's feeding into the lust of the flesh and your body, and then somebody might see you dancing and lust after you, then you'll be uh in charge of the fact that they sinned because they lust after you.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's just this like domino effect of you're never good enough, and if you do anything, it's your fault.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a frustrating existence, honestly, when you're in that cult.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: And but yeah, going through all of those, I'm like, this, yeah, and then repeated phrases and the gaslighting, and then the last one that you said was who's worthy of salvation, they absolutely teach that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, they claim to say everybody's worthy of salvation, they just have to accept it by faith, but they actually don't believe that in practice, right?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's just a bunch of lip service that they say.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when it comes down to it, you also have to maintain this certain standard that they set for you, or then they start to question your own faith.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's and in the most extreme forms, of course, that of course, I would say, of course, always that applies to anyone who's not in the cult, in the group, that they are not worthy of their existence.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And in the most extreme forms, that becomes okay, so we're now we're gonna go to war and we're gonna kill all of them.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we're seeing that happen around the world.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean they would really encourage us to go out and try and convert people and get people into the church.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: They used to tell us like once a week, they would say, Okay, now we're all gonna go out.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: They would give us maps and they would map out the whole area, and they would send vanloads of people to certain sections of the area and say, Okay, now you gotta door knock all of these 200, 300 houses, and you're knocking on these strangers' doors, asking them, if you die today, would you go to heaven or hell?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: You don't even know, you don't even know this person's name.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know anything about them.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: You're just telling a perfect stranger because the goal is you're trying to convert more people into this cult.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: And because you're told without this belief system, they're evil and they're gonna die and go to hell.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're also taught that, like, if you have any kind of relationship with these people, then you're gonna go down this dark path of you know, you're just gonna become evil as well.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's crazy, it really is.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's the it's also the um the expectation that you will give up all your worldly possessions, your money, your property, uh, you will uh wear what they tell you to wear.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: You give up your bodily autonomy in the cult uh children of God, that was literally a cult, a sex cult that involved incest and pedophilia.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it was taught that that is just a way uh that leader David Berg taught that's just another way of showing God's love.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I actually had a guest on my podcast.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, her name is Kim Kelly.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: She came from that cult, and her mother was one of the cult leaders.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: She actually helped write that book.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's you can be expected to start believing just about anything.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And most, I think the greatest number of members of Children of God, I could be wrong about this.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think many of them were born into it because they were very sexually pro prolific, they uh, you know, reproduced a lot, and so they just kept these children in in that lineage.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's different when you're born into a cult versus going into a cult like willingly.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: I was born into the cult, so I I don't I didn't know any different growing up.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I've talked to David about this on many occasions, where uh there have been times, even in my deconstruction, removed, you know, 20 years from the cult, that I still have to examine myself and say, okay, is this like my cult mentality brain that switched on that I'm judging this person for this, that, and the other thing?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or is this how I actually think?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I have to take a step back sometimes and say, like, what it which is it?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I have to do that too with, you know, is this victim David, you know, or is this David on the healing side?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, which David is this?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I is am I giving myself false or or toxic positivity by saying that that's okay and that's never gonna go away, but I don't I have the tools to manage those thoughts, or or is that is it toxic that I think that way?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it depends on whether or not you are talking about if you if you say uh victim dated, uh again, I want you to be cautious with that term because uh you none of us uh willingly becomes a victim.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, and so uh it's normal that uh after you've been victimized to blame yourself because that's what society does to us as well.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why many, many people who suffer from PTSD suffer from extreme remorse and shame and guilt because they there's this part of them that believes that they did this to themselves.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not just talking about, you know, women who are, for instance, raped, and then the system, you know, drags women through the victim blaming, you know, well, what were you wearing?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Why were you out so late?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, why were you alone in that, you know, all that, all of that other stuff?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it this also applies to um, you know, military members who look back and they try to think, well, what what if I hadn't driven down that particular road?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: What if I had, what if I hadn't, if I hadn't sat in the backseat then and I'd been in the front seat, then I would have been the one that took the hit, and the people in the backseat would have lived like I did.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's all all of this, all of the ways that we contort ourselves to try to blame ourselves for what happens.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's really important, David, that you have compassion for what you call the victim part of you.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we all really need to.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I and Jenny, I'm sure that you've had to catch yourself in that as well, that you know, that's self-blaming or whatever.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think all of us who've I've I've I'm the survivor of two rapes and domestic abuse.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it's hard for me.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I no longer blame myself for the rapes because I was a teenager when it happened and I was overpowered.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, the domestic abuse, I blame myself for not seeing the signs, and how can I this happen to me because I should know better and and all of that kind of stuff.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have to stop that, to stop it.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, to the extent that you learn a lesson, you know, what maybe not what to watch for, the red flags, what what precautions to take in the future, but not the oh, this is my fault way to go.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and if this question is gonna be too far ahead, then we can definitely put a pin in it.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: But when you were just sharing with us, you know, uh how you would victim blame yourself, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Of why did I see the red flags?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how you had mentioned that there can be cults inside just a household?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be hundreds of people.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I always thought it had to be like a huge following, right?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I always thought it had to be a hundred plus when you know when when that's not true.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: So so is that how like that household cult kind of starts, is is I guess because not seeing the red flags, not knowing that there's red flags, is part of the grooming process, and and correct any verbiage that I'm not using correctly, but like is it a grooming process that starts that household, that small atmosphere?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that uh begins with the person with the dark triad personality finding a person with a light triad personality to partner with and have children.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the children like Jenny don't know any better, but you're born into it.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is jumping ahead, but I'm so anxious to know how you extricated yourself and what was the fallout in your life from that, and what were the benefits.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, okay, so how much time do you have?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'll try and make this as brief as possible.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: But this would be a great place to put a shameless plug-in because that's right.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I actually I actually did just have a full episode about this with David last week on my podcast, but then we also talked about it on my part one too.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: But anyways, just a brief summary.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: My the arranged marriage that I was put into um by my dad, who was the pastor of the church I was attending, of course, because I grew up in that church.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: The he the guy that he ended up telling me to marry, he ended up being the full-time youth pastor of my dad's church.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And there was abuse happening in the home.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I, because my dad was the pastor, my mom was the pastor's wife, I was the youth pastor's wife.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who was I gonna go to to talk about what was happening inside the marital home?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have anyone, and they didn't really, they didn't really promote therapy, like going to a professional therapist.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, if you're gonna need counseling, you go to the pastor.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the pastor was my dad and my mom.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not going to them.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I was sort of stuck.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I how am I gonna get out of this?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And there was a lady in the church at the time who I don't know how she saw signs, but she just she saw something in me because I felt like I put on a pretty good facade when I was at church.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was afraid if I kind of let off that there was bad stuff going on that that things would get worse when we got home, right?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so she kind of pulled me aside one day at church and she was handed me a little piece of paper and she said, This is a number.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know for sure what's going on, but call this number if you need help.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Okay.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: So a couple days later, I called the number, and the number was a place called First Step in Plymouth, Michigan.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it is a nonprofit domestic violence organization.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I made an appointment, I went in, I talked to one of the counselors, and they were immediately alarmed at the situation that I was telling them that I was in.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, You and your daughter need to get to a safe house.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that scared me really bad because I'm like, maybe I don't realize like it, maybe it's worse than what I'm realizing because I'm living in this day in and day out, and this person who doesn't know me is telling me this is a red alarm situation, like time to get out.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I say this was this chaos was your norm, right?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was my norm.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what I'm understanding?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was living in this day in and day out, so like, yeah, I knew there was abuse going on.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I was concerned for my safety and my daughter's safety, but I like I was like, eventually I'm gonna find a way to leave.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I I was just waiting for an answer on how to do that because I didn't know.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And plus, you have the fear of the cult mentality.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, again, if you step outside of what they consider God's will, like divorce is definitely not in their consideration God's will.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: If you step outside of God's will, then you're in danger of like God's judgment.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Something bad could happen to you.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: You could die in a car accident, you could get cancer, your daughter could be killed, you know, any number of things that they're telling you.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: So then it prevents you from actually living your life or making decisions on your own.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, anyways, the counselor was like, We need to find you a safe house, you need to get into a safe house.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, I'm not gonna do that because that freaked me out.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was like the curfew thing and then not being able to tell my family where I was, and you know, all those things.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, I think I can just go to my parents' house and I would be safe.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And she goes, Well, at the very least, you need an exit plan.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so she told me how to do that, get go a go bag together and be ready to exit, never be in a room where you can't escape with him, you know, all of those things.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I there's something that happened that occurred one night at 2 a.m.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: and I left.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: I took my daughter, got the go bag, got into the car, and went to my parents' house.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: I ultimately ended up getting a restraining order.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: The things that occurred sort of happened in sequence where I was able to leave.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: My dad ended up firing him as a youth pastor for a lot of different reasons that I won't even go into.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: But it ultimately led to my escape.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then I ended up having to get that restraining order because there were threats made.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, always under the guise of, well, God is gonna take care of you and God is gonna make sure that whatever.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I told David, I mean, there were nights where he would have a loaded handgun on his nightstand and he would just pick it up and remind me, like, if you ever try to leave, like, there's the gun.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: And there was one day that I knew he was gonna be at work.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: I had already left, I was staying with my parents.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: The restraining order was in the process of getting it.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I had gone back to the house to get a couple of my daughter's items.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: I walked into her nursery, and there was our open wedding album on the floor with a shotgun next to it, an open Bible on her dresser, and two bullets standing on end like this.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh my gosh.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I panicked and I'm like, I have to get out of here.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, obviously, he knew I was gonna come back at some point.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he was leaving me a clear message.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm just like, I'm not playing around with this.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I I I've gotta, I've gotta be done.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was that was the the the end of the end, but the beginning of another hellish chapter of my life.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I I made it out, my daughter made it out, and but then of course, then you have like the shunning from the church because he stayed not within my dad's church because he got fired, but he stayed within that specific cult.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: He went to another church that was that same belief system.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and so because he was in church and I wasn't, he was automatically labeled as the good parent because he's still in church, he's still teaching his daughter about God, and I was out just whatever.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did did your parents believe you when you told them what had been happening to you?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: They did actually, but my dad was always super concerned with what the cult members thought of him, and he was very concerned about his ministry at the church, and so he made us kind of he made me more or less jump through hoops.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, Well, I have a Christian counselor that I want you guys to talk to, and he actually administered this test called the MMPI.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are you familiar with that?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so he actually administered that test to both of us, and he told me that my ex didn't pass it.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what he meant was, what he meant was your ex shows because the MMPI is is you having taken it, I did too in a custody battle.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what that means is that the MMPI revealed that your ex was likely either a narcissist or a sociopath, what we call antisocial personality disorder, or a mix of both, which my uh my ex, my my daughter's father was the same.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so he had to give it, he had to take it three times.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Three times, three times did they did they want it to get better?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Did they want him to get it?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I guess I think he was insisting that he wanted to he wanted to pass it.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: He wanted to manipulate it, yes, and so he didn't pass it all three times.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't pass it.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: And basically the question was, what does that mean?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean in his words?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: I swear to god to you, his words were he's either a pathological liar or he is literally Jesus Christ in the flesh.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, yeah, that makes sense.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: It tracks because the guy thinks he's perfect, like he does nothing wrong in his mind.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a hallmark of the dark triad, that they are so the narcissistic narcissistic characteristics are so uh intense that they actually do believe that they are some form of messiah or prophet or whatever.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we see that in our dear leader right now in the White House.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but my daughter's father literally told my daughter, I am a reincarnation of Jesus.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I've never done anything wrong.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, where have we heard that before?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: But this is what they truly believe, and that comes out of um well, I don't think it's even important that we understand what it comes out of.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I feel like when we understand what it comes out of, that can cause people to sort of uh garner some sympathy for them.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very dangerous to garner sympathy for them because they will not change.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: And right.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well I am curious though, what does that come out of?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm definitely not gonna garner any sympathy, trust me.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's no sympathy to be had for that man.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: It typically comes out of a childhood where there's sort of a mix, especially with sociopathy, but this is true for narcissism as well.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: A mix of telling the child you can do no wrong and really um, you know, lavishing them with all sorts of praise, and or absolutely no acknowledgement of their value at all from any parent.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it can go either way.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: So some many of them come out of uh it's I think it's a there's a lot, it's a lot I forget the number, but there's a large percentage of folks that have narcissism and sociopathic traits who had extreme abuse in childhood.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: David Caresh, David Berg, I always forget his last name, the Heaven's Gate guy, Applewhite.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um they come out of these situations where there is extreme abuse or neglect.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be overt abuse, but it can be neglect, just not acknowledging the child's worth or value.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we see in uh Mr.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: uh Mr.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Trump is a childhood where he had a mother who was largely absent because she was depressed and uh laid up in bed or in hospitals for psychiatric issues and did wasn't there for him to mother him or nurture him, and a father who was harsh and critical and abusive, and that set up in him this need to try to get validation in any way possible, and that's what they're really lacking, they're really lacking a sense of self.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, what they do is they develop this sort of false, grandiose self.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm everything, I'm everything to everyone, I'm the best.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: You've never seen anything like it, I'm the best.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm and then they they and then along the way they learn how to manipulate because manipulation, we all we've all learned how to manipulate through childhood.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's face it.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's not, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: We know how to manipulate our environment to get the things that we want or need, right?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: But theirs is in a more of a Machiavellian, no regard for anyone else's feelings.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get what I want without any regard for how my actions to get what I want affect other people.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what makes them very dangerous.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they also then they know they start to see, okay, when I did this, that person responded in this way.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: They start to learn from it.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so then they start to understand, they start to see how to mask what other people, when other people show empathy, they start to see what that looks like and they learn how to fake it.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that and make other people think that they do have empathy, that they really do care about you, that they do want what's best for you.
• 47:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Cause you you're right.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and using uh, you know, Donald Trump and and MAGA as an example, and I wanted to do it respectfully, like like I'm learning, uh, is that people believe that that Donald Trump is for the the average working class man, and he's he's never been one of those.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: So but he's learned how to speak as if he's learned how to mimic that for us to believe, for the for people to believe that he can relate that he is one of them, right?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Am I am I understanding that?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he was able to convince them that he had the cure for everything that ails them.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not that he is that person, he just has the answer to fix that problem.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha, okay.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Much like them, you know, they feel aggrieved and they are rightfully aggrieved in many ways.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the farmers who've been forgotten, the the you know, the middle class people who see no increases in their wages, but cost of living keeps skyrocking it and they can't they can't afford to live.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he gave them not only the sense that he has the way to fix it, but he gave them someone to blame.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Don't all politicians do that though?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like I hear every time there's like an election cycle, I'm just like, oh my god, here we go again.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like every each side is gonna be saying basically the same thing about the other side, and it's hard to listen to.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like this is it's literally like a repeat every single cycle, it just seems like, but they all just have like a new tagline that they use.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree, I agree.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's and it's on both sides of the aisle.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, when we look at the things that have happened recently, uh prime example, Eric Swalwell.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: But he had a lot of people fooled outside of the beltway in DC, right?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Inside the beltway, everybody kind of had his number.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that pisses me off.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you were gonna become a staffer working for him, people would warn you you better, you know, you better like cover your drink if you're out with him and you better watch out.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, people like me, for instance, all I saw was the guy on television who probably I thought he was four victims, yeah.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I hope he goes down, yeah.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a democrat, I hope he goes down.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's the difference between us and the cult mentality, right?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is we can say that I don't care what party you're you're assigned to, you've done bad things, right?
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're out, right?
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're we're not gonna justify this.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: I actually have an episode because I'm starting to do like little mini episodes where I'm learning things along the way, and so I'm trying to share those so we were really like connecting with those.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, when this happened with Eric, I actually made it one of my, I think it, I think I released it yesterday, if not tonight, but um because I did not want to take a chance of being called out of you keep calling out MAGA, you keep calling out, you know, the the these preachers that keep getting that voted for Trump and and they're going to jail for you know child porn.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I bumped that up to like number two episode because I wanted to show that I don't give a damn about what your political stance or or uh rape people, you hurt children, you hurt women, anybody, I want you down.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want you out.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think, Jenny, coming back to your point, I think that anyone who's in politics, anyone who wants to rise through the ranks of politics, actually it's true of school board members, city council members, it doesn't kind of matter at what level.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: They all should be looked at sort of with a side eye by the rest of us and examined for where the hypocrisies might be in in their lives and in their characters.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree with you on that.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've said that for a long time.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I saw it even just in our local county commissioners, we would have these meetings, and you could see the ones who were trying to control every what everyone was thinking.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, do not gaslight me and tell me this isn't happening.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's the gaslighting again.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: So do people go in with the hopes with with the, I guess, with the idea of creating a cult, or does it just kind of just happen on its own?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or any doctor in front of my name, but that doesn't matter.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: You have this experience and it's very valuable.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you have a podcaster in front of your name, so you're good.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I don't have any letters after my name.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I really mean.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, if if Joe Rogan can claim to be an expert on anything, I mean, all right.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say no, they don't have to go in and say, I'm about to create this cult.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that they have this narcissistic mindset that they just have this insatiable need to control people.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like an addiction.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: David and I talked about this on my episode where my ex-husband, it was like once I left and he could no longer control me, we went through the family court system, which is a whole nother just ball of wax.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: But you basically have to be an ex-murderer in order to not get rights to your child.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like you, or he, or you have to give up rights as a parent in order to not have rights.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: So otherwise, in other way, in other words, sorry, you're gonna get some kind of rights to your child.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you are co-parenting with a narcissist and they're not able to control you day in and day out in a marital home, they're gonna use the child to do that.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so whether they consciously go into, I'm gonna start a cult, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna, you know, whatever.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just that you have to have a person who has such a narcissistic personality that they just have an insatiable need to control people.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then it will just fall in line, whatever, you know, happens.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you will have even people who are more pragmatic in their personality, people who love to be up in front of people, who love a crowd, who have no problem with public speaking.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: You have to look out for those people oftentimes because those are the people who they like, they love that energy they get from the crowd.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so even when you talk about like Taylor Swift or some of these celebrities, I do think there's a little bit of that cult mentality and a little bit of that narcissistic personality because they do feed off of that energy.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I have to have it.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you know, it's like an addiction, right?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not always handled in a negative way though, right?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's ways to have those things, but to not use them negatively.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really know much about the Swifties.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: I like some of her music, but I don't really know much about but I I don't I I've not heard of any, you know, attempts on her part to uh indoctrinate people who like her music and tell them to think in a certain way or whatever.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: I know that she has spoken out politically, yeah, and that's been criticized.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, she's not telling her people her her fans uh look, you have to think this way like I do, or you're not a fan of mine, you know.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I love that you said that because like I guess where I get so mad when people want to say like the Swifty cult is because I don't want to normalize that word and where it becomes a where that word is a where it loses its power when it comes to when we're talking about the IFB, when we're talking about MAGA, like if if we think of cult and we immediately go to Taylor Swift fans when Taylor Swift is lovely, you know, like I don't want it to, I don't want the word cult to lose its power.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where I get a little frustrated with the because it like you said, I've never heard Taylor say anything.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to lose the power and the meaning behind that word.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: And even at that, I mean the word cult and and the suggested eight sort of definitions that I just went through, or the the eight, what did you call them, eight deadly sins.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: There there's, you know, I think that that doesn't apply to every group, you know, and cults can um can be large or small.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: They can they may not they may not possess all of those deadly sins as well.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the word cult itself is sort of a soft, it's not a it's not a hard definition of a group.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I've created my own definition with it just because of where, you know, like I I hear Jenny's stories, I edit her episodes where she has a guest on each week.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I hear the word cult, to me, it's every time I hear it, it's like a punch.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I I feel it, you know.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so for you to say there there's like the the true definition of it isn't as harsh, or uh forgive me if I'm using the um if I say it incorrectly.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's debatable, let's put it that way.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, gotcha, gotcha, because to me in my mind, it wasn't right.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just knew that people I loved were in something that was awful to them, and I hate that, you know.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: So wow, yeah.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: And the people that listen to my episodes, a lot of them are still in that same cult, and they'll listen and they'll be like, that wasn't a cult, you're just acting like a victim, you're sensationalizing it, you know, whatever.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like they're still in it, so they're not gonna see they're not gonna see it until they get outside of it, they're just not going to see the truth.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's frustrating.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: But what can somebody do to make sure that they don't go from one cult, leave that cult, and say, well, I'm out of the cult now, and end up in another cult unknowingly.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing to prevent that from happening, other than that person's.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you leave a cult, what you need to do is you need to get into therapy and you need to examine the reasons why you got involved in the first place.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: And again, not to blame yourself.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, therapy is not about it shouldn't be, about blaming yourself, because we don't want to victim blame, but we do need to understand what is it about me that made me vulnerable to this?
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where what was I looking for?
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: What did I need that perhaps I need to be able to provide for myself or provide in other ways that don't cost me my freedom to speak, think, dress, bodily autonomy, all of the rest.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: How can I get those needs met?
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: And really dealing with what went on in my childhood.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do I people going into therapy?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's always um interesting to me when I've done therapy with folks that you know, I'm like, okay, well, let's let's talk about your childhood and let's talk about your parents and what your family of origin was like.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they're always like, Well, I don't, you know, I had a good family, I had a good, you know, I they don't want to blame their families.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to tell them this is not about blaming anyone because everyone in your family was doing what they were doing because of their own reasons, maybe not with nefarious intentions, but you grew up in that and you learned certain things, you learn to behave in certain ways, you learn certain ways of coping, and we need to kind of look at that so that we can build your sense of agency and autonomy and give you back that power.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you said that because when I got out and I was a single mom for almost seven years, I put myself into therapy, and that right there was like one of the best decisions that I made for myself.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, you know, the healing process, I mean, it is it's ongoing.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so about two years after my divorce, I got into another serious relationship.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now we never got married or anything, but he was also very abusive, in some ways, more abusive than my ex-husband was.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was in therapy at the time and I was telling my therapist about this, and I'm like, why do I keep getting myself in these situations of abuse, like going into this relationship and then another relationship of abuse, like continuing this pattern?
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we dove into that, but then she ultimately suggested that I go see a hypnotherapist just on just to like couple that with the therapy I was doing with her.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: And let me tell you, that was the cure.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you discovered some things in hypnosis.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and then from that point on, it was like I didn't even need, I don't even need a man at that point.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was like, I'm good, like I'm gonna, I don't even need anyone.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I was so much more confident in myself.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: I got rid of that other relationship and I was single for a while, and then ultimately met my current husband, Ryan, who is a wonderful, amazing person, and we have a great relationship, and it's not abusive, and you know, it's very healthy, and all those things that I wasn't.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: He's very handsome.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: And he is very handsome, yes.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's a good dad.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: He is, and he's my best friend.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your number one best friend though.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I had to break that pattern.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what are your thoughts on the hypnotherapy for people who are like leaving a call or leaving a very controlling relationship of any kind?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that hypnotherapy needs to be approached cautiously.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is it's a um a modality that is still a little bit controversial.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's interesting.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and in many states, hypnotherapists could be literally like the gas station attendant decides to hang a shingle up and call himself the hypnotherapist.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: Stop it! No, yeah, in many states, yes.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be cautious.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you'd like it's not it's not very well regulated, is what I'm trying to say.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, as a doctor, we doctors are regulated by our medical boards of our states, and then we have to be board certified by a national board that oversees our particular discipline.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm, for instance, I'm what they call a diplomat of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have to answer to the state board that where I live.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there are rules and ethics, and you have to be certified.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have certifications, degrees.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: Chemotherapists, not necessarily.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say I would be cautious with that because I think that first and foremost, it's very important to work with someone who can teach you how to build what we call in the business ego strength, meaning your own understanding of your re your reality, validating your perceptions, your ability to set boundaries, you know, your ability to recognize relationships around you and what they are before you go into hypnotherapy.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just to protect yourself.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then vet your hypnotherapist closely.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in hypnotherapy, people can come across memories of traumas that have happened to them uh that maybe they wouldn't have remembered otherwise.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is it is a valid way to deal with that in many ways.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: As long as your hypnotherapist is adequately trained and certified according to their state and you've you've vetted them.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um another way because really I think what what you people who come out of cults, many of them are dealing with a form of PTSD.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've had you've had your mind so manipulated that you don't know what's reality and what is it.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_01: You don't trust your own perceptions of things, and you have perhaps intrusive memories of the traumas that you went through while in under the control of that group.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it may make you unable to function because of being easily startled, so easily startled or scared to go out in public, avoidant of relationships.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: So another way to deal with that would be ketamine therapy, ketamine-assisted therapy, which again one has to be very cautious about because the way that it's done correctly is the patient comes into a ketamine clinic, does the whatever form of ketamine it is, whether it's an infusion through an IV or a nasal puff, and they stay with the therapist who then works with them as they go into this dissociative state and things start to come up for them.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: So explain exactly what is ketamine.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: So ketamine, ketamine was originally developed as an anesthetic and it was all always, almost always used in veterinary medicine.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it is a hallucinogenic as well.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: The thing about ketamine that that works with PTSD and the brain is that ketamine, through a number of molecular interactions in the cell membrane, causes a release of BDNF, brain developing brain-derived neurotropic factor.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's a fancy way of saying a neurochemical that causes nerve growth.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it causes what we call neuroplasticity.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what you're able to do when you're in ketamine-assisted therapy, particularly for a trauma, is with that therapist's help.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: Don't ever go with a clinic that's just going to send you a prescription of spravado to take home and do whatever you need to be with a therapist.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: But with that therapist's help, you can, as the traumas come up, you can they can help you reframe them and help you have a greater sense of empowerment through that memory so that you build new neural tracks that help you to deal with that trauma in an empowered way rather than still feeling victimized by it.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: So this sounds a lot like EMDR, David.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was thinking about.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you were gonna say?
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like I haven't been hypnotized, like like you have, Jenny, um, and never really had the the desire to.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've always kind of been a little weird with it.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've always I never fully trusted, I don't guess.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: The what was the one we were just talking about?
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: EMDR.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not EMDR, the ketamine document.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've been interested in that because uh Chelsea Handler did a whole thing where she documented her thing, her, her journey with it, and I thought it was really interesting.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: But then I see like the whole like where everyone says Elon Musk was on ketamine when he was on stage with black guys and sunglasses, and so like I'm like uh Elon Elon Musk was abusing ketamine.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Very important to understand that um you never want to.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: I as I tell my parent, my patients, uh, with their medications, um, we don't do the Dolly Parton method of pharmacology.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: More is not necessarily better.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's good on Dolly, but it's not good in a pharmaceutical.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so ketamine used in appropriate doses and with the accompaniment of a therapist.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: But EMDR, let's talk about the difference.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: EMDR, what EMDR does is it engages both hemispheres of the brain as you recall a traumatic memory.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: And what that has, and we still don't know why.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: We still don't know why, but for some reason it unhinges the emotional feeling from the memory of the trauma.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you can have the memory of the trauma without being triggered by it.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because with when when I because I I have done an EMDR, and so Jenny, we may need to have an episode on my EMDR journey and your uh hypnotic journey because I could be really I would do I would just do it as an episode.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_02: I would be like, who wants to do EMDR on me?
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'll do it live.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then it you know, I got a little to get a little plug in here, then we can do an episode on TMS because TMS does a very similar thing for the brain.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: It causes neuroplasticity, transcranial magnetic stimulation.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and and those are the clinics that you have, right?
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: So so that was gonna be the last question that I that I asked you.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear more about that because I don't know that I know a lot about that, and I I trust you, and I like I want it.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do?
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: You have to come out here and stay with me for six weeks while you get it.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, six weeks.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_01: TMS is a way of utilizing the electromagnetic field that circulates around an electrical current.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people think of, they start to think about, oh, you know, electroconvulsive therapy, the old, you know, put electricity through your brain.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what we're doing.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: What we're doing is we're putting two coils of wire side by side inside a plastic housing that does not conduct electricity.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're pulsing electrical pulses through those coils, and that emits an electromagnetic field that circulates around it.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we put those coils that look like two hockey pucks stuck together against your head like this, and that electromagnetic field penetrates the cortex of your brain about five millimeters, and there then is some reverberation throughout the brain.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to go under anesthetic, there's no, you might feel a little tap, some people have maybe a tiny little headache.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, drive yourself there, drive yourself back.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's 30 minutes a day, five days a week for a total of 30 treatments.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're doing in my form of TMS, that I I have to treat my horn a little bit, I developed is we're doing an individualized treatment.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Traditional TMS was developed back in 1985, and it's evolved since then.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but traditional TMS treats only two areas of the brain.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's the this area and this area, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Say that five times faster.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But on the left side is where depression lives, on the right side is where anxiety lives, and that's typically those are the only two places on your brain that traditional TMS will treat.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've developed a way of doing an EEG, a 19-lead EEG on your brain.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: We get a printout and we see where your brain waves are out of sync.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then we start treating those areas, those particular areas of your brain from front to back to get all of your brain waves firing at the same frequency, sort of lined up on the same hashtag on the field.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have a coherent brain, and then anxiety goes away, depression goes away, your performance improves, your attention and focus improve, your sleep improves, we can treat migraines, we can treat OCD.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's FDA approved only for major depressive disorder that is not responding to antidepressants because who owns it?
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Who's own who owns us, baby?
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Pharmaceutical companies.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they don't want people to get cured.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so that's it in a nutshell.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing though.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: It is amazing.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's so I have found a renewed uh enthusiasm and passion in the work that I do because as a psychiatrist, I've been so disappointed with medications, and not to mention that they often either aren't effective or they're effective only for a period of time, and then you have to change dose or change medication, and they cause side effects.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is a way to treat this without medication, and you can see people actually get better.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_01: We used to have a little, and there's dark humor in medicine.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was when I was in residency, we used to have this phrase, he was so depressed, he was so depressed when he walked in, the lights dimmed.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of what his energy just brought everything.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody including the light bulbs.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you get to see books like that improve to where, you know, they're walking out and the lights go on, you know, they're um their lights are on and they're they're shining and they're happy.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's amazing.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have a question to go back to the ketamine thing.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a guest on recently that, and I'm gonna give him a little plug too, Troy Uschaufer.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_02: He is the founder of Vines and Valor.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's a nonprofit organization that helps veterans get grants for these ayahuasca retreats.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh and so you're talking about ketamine, and I'm like, that's a little similar to what he was talking about with what ayahuasca does, and that they're trying to get this to veterans who have experienced PTSD.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm like, well, what about people like that aren't veterans that need this too?
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, first responders, for instance, your firemen, your policemen, your EMTs, everybody, and and I'm not sure how much ayahuasca has been studied in terms of understanding what it does on the biomolecular level of the brain, but I suspect it's something similar to what ketamine does and what psilocybin does.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because it there there are certain ionic channels that open and then release these factors.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I it it will be interesting to see if someone starts studying that.
• 1:15:07
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, so my question is with your service, antidepressants, the goal is to not be on them forever, correct?
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, but some people really require it, unfortunately.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I have tried to wing off before through my doctor, right?
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with my doctor to to try to wing off.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it I don't know if I just wasn't ready then.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I will say it was around like the maybe like the five, six year mark, and when I thought, oh, you know, like I'm back to work, I have a great relationship, I'm comfortable in my home, so I think I'm cured.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm on antidepressants now and I come see you, is one of the goals is to is this these this 30-day treatment to get me off that medication, or is that two different things that I leave that up to the patient and and their doctor who's prescribing it for them.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, many times when they're referred by their doctor, it's because everything is failing.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, their doctor is like, I'm at the end of my, I don't have any other rabbits to pull out of my hat here, and you need to go in.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I always leave that up to them.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna be the one that takes them off of their medication.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I want that to be between them and the doctor that's prescribing it for them.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_01: But many times that ends up being the result is there they start to wean off toward the end of their treatment.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I always tell them, hey, wait a month, you know, because we want to see.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes the improvement is ramping up through the six weeks, and then four weeks beyond that, they get to optimal benefit.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I always ask them to kind of wait and see.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love okay, Janine.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to go to California for 30 days.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to, we're gonna do the uh what is it?
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I always forget.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Ayahuasca.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Ayahuasca.
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know what?
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just let's just plan to take the next summer off.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna go and we're gonna have cameras and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna get cured.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever we're Ling other than Yeah.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have to go to the Amazon to do the ayahuasca?
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_02: No, so there's actually places in the United States that are certified to administer these modalities, they call them, I guess.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's that's that that would be the drawback for me.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I'm not sure I want to traipse through.
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty outdoorsy, but I I'm more like give me the mountains and the grizzly bears.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure I want the jungle and the whatever's in there.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know there's one place in Maine, and then I think there's another one in Orlando, but yeah, he Troy, my guest, he went to the Amazon and did it.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And outside in the rainforest, laying under a tree.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I couldn't do that, I could not do that at night.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: No way.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: That right there would just give me a bad trip.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know to throw a constrictor around your knee, exactly, or a big tarantula or something.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Sandra, you should check out his episode.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna come on ish as well, but uh, you should check out his episode on Unholier.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he's really he's a really cool guy.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I will, and you might even recognize him from TikTok because I think that's kind of where you started getting a lot of his traction, right?
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, Jenny, before we start closing out, because like we had talked about and it might have been off record or whatever, but we may just keep this as an ongoing conversation because there's no way to fit all of this into one hour and it's been an hour and 40 minutes, you know what I mean?
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we're and we're we've barely touched anything.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is our way of having Sandra come back and spend more time with us.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was all part of my master plan.
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like, Jenny, do not that I'm trying to start a cult, but but um I I do have one last question that I want to have for you all, but I I want to make sure I want to see like, do you have any other last questions or anything before I do mine?
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I just want to say that I think that there will be more discussion for us to have as we start to see things, I I believe inevitably crumbling in the MAGA world.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's happening now, and I think that there will be much more to observe and talk about.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great segue into my last question.
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is for both of you, um, because I uh am truthfully trying my best to learn how to.
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I live in the south.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying my best to learn how to navigate being a gay man surround, I mean, very, very blue and very, very red territory.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I tried being nice and understanding, and it didn't work.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I tried the shaming, you know.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I try I tried the uh you you're you're a pedophile protector.
• 1:19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I tried those things.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't work.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm ready to try another step.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you all have thoughts or suggestions for me of what you think that maybe I should try?
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Jenny.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, David, I think that again, trying to look at it from the other person's perspective.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_02: If they were trying to convert you to their side, how would they need to approach you in order for you to get to see where they're coming from?
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not just talking politics, that's anything in life, right?
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have a disagreement with somebody and you want them to see your side, you can't come at them combatively.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be able to approach them in a way that gets them to lay down the armor, lay down the weapon, and say, okay, let's have this conversation as two adults.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_02: I want to see where you're coming from.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_02: I want to see, I want you to see where I'm coming from.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so just to try and figure out a something that we can all agree on, right?
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_02: And there are things, and I know this because I know a lot of people who are still in MAGA that the MAGA people are very frustrated with.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_02: One of those things is um the Jesus Christ depiction that he did last week.
• 1:21:13
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of these people are they're considering themselves Christian and they're very upset, thinking that this is very blasphemous behavior.
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so that is a common thread that you could use to say, hey, we both agree on this point, right?
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about it.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_02: So you're finding commonalities with people, and then that will get them to start letting their guard down with you and having those open conversations.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you can say we see eye to eye on this, then maybe you can find other things that you see eye to eye too.
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my advice.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, I agree.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I do respect that, and and it's something that I want to try to learn.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I'm learning that.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had some time where I've really been analyzing this, and it is something that has been hard for me to even say out loud.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think this MAGA movement is very uh triggering to me.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I struggled with how triggering it was because I was like, I'm I'm not in a cold.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm I'm not a bad person because I associate MAGA with bad people, you know, and and I and that's me putting a blanket on everyone when, like you said, there are some some of the good ones that that are just that they're looking out for their wallets or whatever, and that they were misled.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's like I love what you said about this whole like Jesus Picture thing.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_00: We can find that we both hate this, but or even the Epstein files.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know people in Mega that are furious about this.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like he said he ran on this point.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_02: He said he was gonna do this, that, and put all these people away, drain the swamp, and he's not doing it.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're frustrated.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_02: So those are things that you can come together and be like, hey, we're frustrated, you're frustrated, this is what we can both agree on.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what I have a hard time separating is because I agree with all that, but I go in blazing because I'm like, oh, it took this, but you didn't care about the trans, which has been day one.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_00: What the fuck?
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not everybody has the same belief system and exactly.
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's well, and that's the my 100%.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_00: That is absolutely correct.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I like that's where I'm because then it trickle trickle trickles down, right?
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then I'm like, well, then gay rights have been played and toyed with and voting rights.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So so it took your Jesus for you to say, oh, you know what?
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe when I've been trying to tell you that my rights or my trans friends' rights are on the line.
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's trans that can't drive in certain states right now.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know what I mean?
• 1:23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, so so where I get triggered is I have a hard time saying, okay, here's that common ground.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm already at a hundred over here because I've been there.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And believe me, you know, I I have some personal reasons as well, as you know, to be um very angry and resentful about that.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think, and and I don't think, I mean, I was trying to imagine myself saying, Oh yes, I too think that that is blasphemous.
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, but I do think that it is an indication of such extreme grandiosity and perhaps even delusional, oh yeah, crazy thinking that makes if it was anyone else, like if your if your neighbor was doing this and and you know, worked at the grocery at the grocery store, you probably wouldn't give a rat's ass.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_01: But this is the president of the most powerful man in the world who has the ability to send our sons and daughters into war or push, god forbid, the nuclear button.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And for him to exhibit that level of grandiosity and really delusionality is very, very frightening.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that even from that perspective, as a person who's a religious, I wouldn't, I'm not an atheist, but I'm a religious, I could probably have that discussion with someone who's devoutly Christian and is very offended by that from the perspective that, and how, how crazy and delusional and grandiose do you have to be to put something that like that out on social media.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that that's frightening?
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that would be common ground right there, you know.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that they would reject me for having that perspective.
• 1:25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I'm really taking all this in, and that's why I'm so glad that we have things on recording because I can just listen to it over and over and over.
• 1:25:48
  SPEAKER_00: But but here's what I was thinking is I think that I need to know hear and believe that just because I find a common ground and focus on that one common ground with that person does not mean I'm steering away from the things I truly believe in.
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I feel like if I if I have a MAGA person's attention and we want to talk about this picture that they find blasphemous, if I don't say, well, what about the gays?
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_00: What about the trans?
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: What about the women's rights?
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_00: What about abortions?
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_00: What about women's anatomy?
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't hit all those things, then I'm not staying true to myself.
• 1:26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I need to forget that, right?
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's not true.
• 1:26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you just have to come, you have to come to where you have to meet them where they are.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just like that story I've told on here before about meeting the guy that the enormous six foot-seven dude that at a city council meeting who's an oathkeeper, and he um he was speaking out against having Pride Month on the city proclamations list.
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a family member who's a member of the LGBTQ community, and I was there to say, hey, you know, this is why do we want to make them feel more marginalized, that sort of thing.
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was upset because he had gotten death threats from being mistaken for someone else, and they were for coming from the left from the liberal side.
• 1:27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he was you know, mad because he was getting death threats, and his family was on their their voicemail.
• 1:27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um I went up to him afterwards and I said, I'm so sorry that you feel unsafe, that you and your family, this is not fair that you guys would have to live in fear.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I I want to tell you that I'm I'm a Democrat, I'm sort of on the left, but I understand what it means to live in fear.
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because uh someone whom I love more than life is a member of the LGBTQ community, is a trans person.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Oh, well, my sister's trans and I don't believe in that, I'm a Christian, and but I but I said, Yes, but would you agree that not everyone in this country is a Christian?
• 1:27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And but wouldn't you want your sister?
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Be able to live without fear.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, yes.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there should be separation of church and state.
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Right on.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we agree.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I told him, I'm like, if we could sit down for coffee, I'm sure we would find so many points on which on which we agree.
• 1:28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, we didn't get that chance because shortly thereafter he went to the Capitol to riot on January 6th and got thrown in prison.
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_01: So okay.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_01: But but nonetheless, for that moment in time, you know, we we kind of found that little common ground.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, see, this is what we need to be doing.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I agree totally.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like you need to meet people where they're at because you're not going to get everybody to agree with you on all the points that you want to can convince them about.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you can just find the common points, like you and that guy did, that is where real change starts, I think.
• 1:28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And where we can start having those open discussions and seeing where the other person relates and where we can relate to them.
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because in the end, we're all human beings, right?
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_02: We want to live peaceably together.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that's really the only way to do that.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a I want to say there's an organization called Better Angels.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you all have heard of it.
• 1:29:16
  SPEAKER_01: But it's an organization that brings together people of opposite sides of the political spec spectrum to have discussions, not to convince one another, not to talk down to one another or reprimand one another, but just to have discussions to see where their common ground is.
• 1:29:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think I need to be there because I I do care.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_00: And but I I I I don't know what it is that well, I mean, I think I do know what it is that's triggering me with all of this.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there there's a lot of sex scandals involved in it, and and I have always hated that, and then I became a victim of one.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so of course that's more triggering.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And but I want to have these conversations.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want to not be an asshole and come in guns blazing, but I always felt like if I did, it was gonna be some kind of hypocritical, some kind of, oh, you're showing empathy and sympathy to someone that doesn't deserve it because we're they didn't have empathy and sympathy for you.
• 1:30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought that I was being a bit of a traitor.
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and I don't and and so I feel like I'm starting to lose the core of who I am as a person trying to defeat MAGA who I'm not gonna change their mind, you know.
• 1:30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's the thing with with members of cults.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's why, that's why there has to be a deprogramming when people come out, so to speak.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing's black and white, you know.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_01: It like I said, that human beings of any group are not a monolith.
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has their own individual psychological makeup that we have to respect.
• 1:30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I didn't know this was gonna turn into a therapy session for me.
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get a uh it an invoice in my email that says your bill for your therapy session, and I will gladly pay it.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean that from both of you.
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_00: But no, I love this conversation.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know that we uh talked a lot, but obviously we didn't get to cover everything.
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so, so yeah, let's keep this on going.
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And Sandra, you I'm such a fan of you.
• 1:31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just I'm such a fan of yours.
• 1:31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're helping me grow.
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine how great I'm gonna be when all my chakras are aligned.
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm just great now, imagine after 30 days with you.
• 1:31:40
  SPEAKER_01: You are gonna be so great.
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_00: I might I may be the next president.
• 1:31:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:31:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he's posting a guy, we don't want to talk.
• 1:31:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I I love these conversations and that because I learned so much, but we find a way to talk about them and we still laugh.
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for being my friend.
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_00: And Jenny, uh, you know, you're my heart.
• 1:31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I love we get to do this, and I'll let you say um all the compliments you want to say to me.
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, David, I know there's just too many to list.
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_02: But no, seriously, I had fun.
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_02: This was a great conversation.
• 1:32:13
  SPEAKER_02: And Sandy, Sandra, I gotta have you on Unholier.
• 1:32:16
  SPEAKER_02: We have to talk more about cults and all of the things because I mean, from your standpoint, I think a lot of people will have questions.
• 1:32:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if you'd be interested in coming on mine, but I'd love to have you.
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm happy to.
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I it's so it's been such a pleasure meeting you, Jenny.
• 1:32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to hear, I'm gonna go and listen to all your episodes now because I I'm just so fascinated with your experience, and you're just such a a beautiful woman with a beautiful heart.
• 1:32:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm so glad you're getting, I'm so glad you're telling your story and you're getting other people's stories out there.
• 1:32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's very important.
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And David, as always, I love you.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_02: You are my bestie, and thanks for having me on today.
• 1:32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll end it there, but um, Sandra, my love.
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, love you, David.
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 1:33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for spending this time with us.
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Go have um thank you.
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's probably what just lunch.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say it's dinner time for you.
• 1:33:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably lunchtime for you.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's two o'clock here.
• 1:33:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm gonna go sit by the pool.
• 1:33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, nice.
• 1:33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so so much.
• 1:33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll be in touch with everything, but yeah, we'll plan a time to all get together again and and all that good stuff.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds great.
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you two.
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 1:33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't she?
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_01: She's amazing.