Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 219. Starting Up & Commissioning a Transcritical CO2 System with Chris Prom of RDM

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Episode 219. Starting Up & Commissioning a Transcritical CO2 System with Chris Prom of RDM · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: Today, my returning guest is Chris Prom from RDM. He's the technical manager. We did a podcast back at episode 158. You got to go check it out. Cody Hamm was there, their lead field guy. And that's where we dive into a ton of technical stuff.
• 0:01
  And we're going to be talking today about some of the learnings. Chris has had over the last year since we talked the last time he started up a few transcritical systems. He's programmed a few transcritical systems. And we're going to talk about the startup and commissioning through his lens, because this is one of the most important parts of a CO2 store is the startup.
• 0:02
  And if you nail the startup properly, get out all the bugs or anything. That system's going to purr for years to come with very little issues. And that's what I see time and time again is when that, that original startup was done correctly. The systems run great. Chris, welcome back to the refrigeration mentor podcast.
• 0:03
  How are you doing?
• 0:04
  Chris: Good. How are you doing? Thanks for having me.
• 0:05
  Trevor: Oh, man. It's so great to chat with you and Yeah, learn more about rdm because once again, that's a controller I know I only started learning about a few years ago had a few on the podcast then invested more time and research It's still a really cool looking controller as well as easy to to navigate and this is why I want to dive in today Because when we met back, About eight or nine months ago, we were diving in some of the technical things that Cody's been seeing, cause he's been out there working on some transcritical systems and where you didn't have one under your belt, hundreds and hundreds of installs for HFCs.
• 0:06
  But since then you did a few transcritical sort, which is amazing. I'd love to dive into that. What are your thoughts on HFC Store to now a transcritical CO2 store. But first, why don't you do a quick introduction again about yourself and RDM.
• 0:07
  Chris: Yeah. So I'm Chris Pram. I'm one of our technical sales engineers here at RDM.
• 0:08
  I got my start at RDM actually in 2012. So it, it'll be. It'll be 12 years actually, like next week that I've been that I've been at this. Yeah. Thanks. I, I love it. I love RDM products. I use RDM stuff every day. I have RDM in my house. I have a a glycol loop boiler. So it was either have two thermostats or use an RDM controller, write my own program and do it that way.
• 0:09
  So I've, I've got my own RDM thermostat. In my house. So that's pretty cool.
• 0:10
  Trevor: Yeah, that's the funny thing. I like a lot of the control people that work at control manufacturers, they actually have their refrigeration controls in their house controlling something because it's just, it's cool to do. And it's overkill.
• 0:11
  No, it has nothing to do with that. It's like, I can make it work and write the program to do the things I wanted to do to make my house more efficient and effective. Honestly.
• 0:12
  Chris: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 0:13
  Trevor: Oh, super cool about that. So awesome. Tell me about what's been going on. So you've since we talked last, you've done a couple of transcritical startups.
• 0:14
  How were they? Let's talk about that.
• 0:15
  Chris: Went pretty well. There's the usual, I think last time we talked about, you know, run proof stuff where either wires get swapped or actually it's, it's not uncommon for a brand new current sensing relay to just not work and it just, it'll make its way out of the factory, hits the field and they've got compressors locking out on run proofs.
• 0:16
  And it ends up, you trace it back. It's a bad component. That's brand new. It happens, you know, electronic components, just the nature of manufacturing. They have a failure rate. It's a, you know, fraction of a percentage, but they, They do have a failure rate.
• 0:17
  Trevor: Yeah. And that's the thing, right? And this is what I do.
• 0:18
  I do a ton of startup and commissioning training with technicians. And the most important thing is not to get frustrated at the manufacturer because you're one manufacturer of many on a rack. You know, and I see it time and time again, where there's technician and I know it's frustrating, you're out there and you're working on it and it's an expensive piece of equipment, something's not working, but our job is to go through that during the startup procedures and the commissioning and, and the thing is, is that it does take longer to start up a CO2 transcritical rack, if there's a longer process in the startup and commissioning, but if it's done right in the right sequence and the right process, you can reduce that time immensely.
• 0:19
  Immensely. What are some of the things that you've noticed? Because now you did your first your startup, a couple of them. What, what was the big difference when you started to move over to the transcritical startup commissioning side?
• 0:20
  Chris: There is that there's a, a lengthier process A lot of the service guys, they'll say, you know, it's the same.
• 0:21
  Cause they're, they're mechanical guys. So to them, it's, it's the same. To me, the control side's a little different. Our normal super PAC controller and our transcritical super PAC controller are about 80 percent similar. So instead of having a condenser discharge group, you now have a gas cooler group and parallel compression group oil control.
• 0:22
  So there, there is some difference, but if you, if you know, the super PAC controller, you can learn the transcritical super PAC controller. fairly readily. It didn't take me that long to just go through the manual and learn how to do that. One of the things would be like the gas cooler outlet temp sensor placement is very important.
• 0:23
  If it's placed too far down the line I think some guys, sometimes people will place it at the rack, whereas the gas cooler is up on the roof, you know, dozens or maybe a hundred feet away. You actually want to get that sensor placed as close as possible to that outlet to get that actual temp reference correctly.
• 0:24
  Trevor: I'd love to ask you this, and I don't know the kind of gas coolers you guys have been working on, but a lot of people have different opinions on the, where the placement is. Yes, it should be the closest to the gas cooler, but when you have, say a Guttner or a BAC and you have two liquid drops coming out, do you pick one or the other, or do you pick it up at the main where both of them connect together?
• 0:25
  Or have you guys tested either one, you know what I mean?
• 0:26
  Chris: So for our controller, and I think Cody, this is what Cody would tell you, is you want it close to the Gaskiller outlet as possible. And maybe that's just how our controller is, you know, running the math internally. But that was something Cody stressed to me, that you want it as close as possible to the outlet.
• 0:27
  So it could be either side.
• 0:28
  Trevor: Either side doesn't matter, but as close as possible because I've talked to other people. I'll bring this up with Cody too, just to double check, see if he tried it elsewhere because you need to make sure that you're getting that right temperature insulated really well covered with maybe PVC or some sort of coating.
• 0:29
  So UV rays don't kill it, but it needs to be on there tight. Cause if you don't, we we've talked about it last one, podcast one 58, go check it out. About what could happen in there.
• 0:30
  Chris: Yep, exactly. And some of the other stuff, I guess just the, the nature of your high pressure valve and your flash gas valve, if they're stepper controlled dialing those in sometimes takes a little work sometimes because they call CO2 like a fast gas.
• 0:31
  Like it gets cold really, really quickly. And so sometimes technicians, they'll go in and take our response on off settings and they'll ramp them way up. Well, that's too fast for a stepper valve to actually respond because a stepper valve physically only has a certain number of steps per second that it can do, like 200 steps, right?
• 0:32
  So if the controller is telling it to move faster than that, it probably won't. Physically can't keep up with that. So you actually have to be really careful. You don't you know dial those that too far in In speed so
• 0:33
  Trevor: yeah, and that's important to understand. So The thing is that I talk to a lot of technicians when a manufacturer manufactures Start up and commissioning at their factory to test everything for quality control before it goes out is a little bit different than what the technicians in the field.
• 0:34
  So if you don't mind, I'd love to talk about, because I know you work with a lot of manufacturers globally. You guys do what is the, the What is your guys procedure at the factory to make sure that that equipment leaving that manufacturer who's building the equipment actually using your controller, what is your processes with their field guys and their engineers to do that quality control test?
• 0:35
  Because I know you guys do that. Most of the, all the big manufacturers really do this. I'd love to hear a little bit about that process before we get into what the technicians need to do in the field.
• 0:36
  Chris: Yeah. So from, from my perspective, because I do a lot of programming and actually it goes back further.
• 0:37
  I do the quoting process to the OEM. So when they come to me and they say, here's our rack design, here's our electrical drawings, our IO schedules. We'll, we'll translate that all to our controller. I then have to take that IO schedule, their drawings, set points, all that stuff, and actually translate that into our controller.
• 0:38
  Make sure the program is right. So I I'm triple checking everything. I, when I go through a program, I go through it and then I scroll back up and I go through it again and make sure that I didn't, you know, absentmindedly push a wrong number or something like that. Once the controller program is done. Oftentimes I'll actually go to the facility and upload the program with the, the people that are working there, building the racks.
• 0:39
  So we'll upload the program and we'll actually do point by point checks. So we'll check temperature sensors so they'll go to each temperature sensor location, put a heat gun on them, make sure that they're reading the actual sensor, so it's wired to the appropriate input on the board. Put pressure on transducers to make sure they're reading correctly.
• 0:40
  Most recently when I did that, we actually discovered that the IO schedule that I had, had the wrong transducer span written on it. So I had programmed for that. And when they put pressure on, we were about 10 PSI off. And I, I just said, you know, take a look at the transducer and see what the span says.
• 0:41
  And the span was different. So we just had to change that. It's very easy. But it was something that if we sent that rack out in the field and then that rack was started up, they would have been off tens of PSI on their I think it was suction line. So that would have thrown off a bunch of, of different stuff just from that one setting, not being correct for the actual mechanical part that was there.
• 0:42
  Trevor: Yeah. And that's something important to talk about because this does happen because now manufacturers, and this happens on HFC equipment as well, but there's more pressure and temperature probes on a CO2 to one, if you don't mind what do you think, or do you, do you get a timeline? You said you take.
• 0:43
  The drawings, you take the PNIDs, you take the electrical drawings, you take all the points and you have to put it in. How long is that? Something that, how long is that process for you? Is that a couple of days, a couple of weeks to do that? I know you're an expert at it. So it's going to be a lot faster than a controls guy out there.
• 0:44
  Cause you know, the controller, but what is that process? Cause I think that's so important for the actual control guys for contractors. Like not every, every technician needs to know all that, how to program it from scratch, like you're doing, but how long would that process be for you?
• 0:45
  Chris: So the process from when.
• 0:46
  The OEM kind of sends us drawings and then the program gets done and then gets uploaded and hits the field. That whole process can be like a series of events over months. Yeah. If, if you right now handed me an IO schedule and said I need this program for this rack, I can get that done in a few hours.
• 0:47
  Really? Yeah. It doesn't take that long to do a rack program and then get that uploaded. Yeah. Awesome. Cheers.
• 0:48
  Trevor: Yeah. And that's important. I think for the control guys out there that are just doing controls day in, day out, you got to get good at that and, and learn it and just sometimes time yourself.
• 0:49
  Okay. How long did it take me to program all these points versus the next one? Try to beat that time. So you get better and better at it. And then like you said, you do double and triple checks so you don't miss anything. So then you don't ever have to go back, do it right. The first time you don't have to do it a second or third time.
• 0:50
  Chris: And by that time, usually if, if, if the rack is out in the field and someone has an issue, they will immediately say, it's got to be something in the program. And I know I've like, no, I've triple checked it. It's not the program, but I'll check it again. I'll check it again. And I'll show them actually, like if they have ultra viewer or something, I'll log into the controller through their laptop and go through and say, you know, this point is correct.
• 0:51
  This point is correct. And then. From there, they kind of have to figure out, you know, what's the mechanical issue, wiring issue.
• 0:52
  Trevor: Exactly. And this is the thing that the technicians need to do in the field. So now you're working with the manufacturer, you're at the manufacturer's facility, and you just said you check point by point.
• 0:53
  So heating up the temperature probes. Pressurizing the pressure probes, checking all the solenoids. So override the soil, it does a click. Does it turn on override this one? Does it, you know what I mean? So you guys go through it step by step as well as overriding the superheat. I'm sure. Okay. Does that liquid injection solenoid open or your hot gas injection or whatever's on that manufacturer, right?
• 0:54
  But all this stuff does take time working with, with them in the field and then making sure every wires landed correctly and there's, And this is why you have to do this as a technician in the field. What else do you do while you're working with the manufacturer before it gets sent out to try to make sure that everything is tight before you guys leave?
• 0:55
  Chris: One thing that I, I, I would like to do more of is. Actually overriding things on. So the, the last one we did, the, the controllers that they purchased didn't have our display screens on them. So to override things on, you need that little display screen. So we weren't able to actually cycle the compressor contactors and override valves and stuff like that.
• 0:56
  That was a negative, but, you know, once it hits the field, if we do have any miswirings or anything there, it'll, it'll, it'll be present in that. So but yeah, I mean, it's, it's just checking, checking, programming, checking your wiring. Those are the big things. If those things are right, when it hits the field, then it's all up to the technicians who really know refrigeration to make sure the mechanical stuff, make sure everything's piped, right.
• 0:57
  And if they've, they've got their stuff correct, then, then everything should be smooth.
• 0:58
  Trevor: Yeah. And that's, that's the big thing is like. You guys do a pre commissioning at the factory it gets out to the field Then this is where the the real commissioning happens Because there's going to get to a point because a lot of times manufacturers are trying to send people out But they just don't have the people they don't have the field rats We're less and less people in the refrigeration industry with enough knowledge to be able to go out on this And I keep telling technicians all this manufacturer sent this guy and he didn't really know anything Well, I don't know He's, he's trying to figure it out too, you know, and that's your support line.
• 0:59
  So use them as much as possible to go back to the factory, to the experts to get some knowledge, because we don't have enough Codys out there. You know what I mean? There's just not enough of them. So don't get mad at the manufacturers. Try to figure out and solve the problem, and starting up in the field is different than the factory as well.
• 1:00
  Right? Now you're gonna start to maybe find the things that could have been missed, kind of like the, the proofing. For example, those compressors, the contactor didn't pull in. So when somebody's out in the field so you did this with the manufacturer, you send it out to the field and you did the startup.
• 1:01
  Okay. Now you can look at a lot of stuff remotely, seeing what the technicians and technicians are doing out there. What are some of the things when a technician gets in the field, what are their process that you hope they go through? Because we talked about the points and the temperatures. What are the other things that they should be looking for before they even put gas Like CO2 in the system.
• 1:02
  Chris: Yeah, I mean, it really depends on what they have time to do. I, a lot of people are just, they seem like they're pressed for time. They're pressed for resources. There's not enough people. There's not enough time to do anything. I wish before they did anything that they themselves would actually go through and check point by point and, and actually look to see that things are reading.
• 1:03
  If they, you know, touch a sensor, it heats up stuff like that so that they know. Oh, or they have a better indication that the programming is correct because there's a lot of times where they will, something's wrong and it doesn't matter what it is, something's wrong and they insist it's the programming.
• 1:04
  Well, if, if someone like me or Cody has to go out to a site, that's generally, it's a bad idea. pretty large expense just to, you know, fly someone across the country. It's a thousand bucks to get anyone anywhere, you know. So being able to check that stuff on your own to make sure that things are wired correctly and acting the way you'd think they would is really important.
• 1:05
  It's, it's, can't be understated. It can save you a lot of time and money, honestly.
• 1:06
  Trevor: Yeah. And I talked to all the control manufacturing, the same thing is like, we need them to be able to do this part. Don't be blaming anybody. Maybe you, some, someone did make a mistake at the manufacturer, but there's so many different potential hands in the pot at that point, us as the field technicians, we need to own it.
• 1:07
  We're the last one touching it. We need to know those processes. And until you really know those processes, you haven't you haven't like achieved that startup and commissioning. You know, you can't just put it in, pipe it and just flick the switch and it's going to work. This is any system doesn't, it doesn't work that we're not dealing with like little package units that are cut and paste.
• 1:08
  These are built up systems. Yeah.
• 1:09
  Chris: And that, that's the thing. These, these service companies, usually when you're doing an install, you'll have the warranty afterwards. You may have a service contract long term. With the end user. So literally they own it. They, they want these things to run appropriately.
• 1:10
  They don't want to be out at a site, you know, three times a week, flipping the relay or doing this or doing that. They, they, they want it to run. And this is, we're talking controls here. Controls are designed to control. They're designed to do things automatically. No one has to think about it. If anything's wrong, it should take an action, throw an alarm.
• 1:11
  But in general, they should just work. So,
• 1:12
  Trevor: but it all, it all depends. If you get the right input to the right output, you know what I mean? If it's not set up properly in the first place, and I think it goes back to basic controls If technicians understand the basic controls, well when this happens, this should happen You know, what are inputs versus what are outputs?
• 1:13
  What are analog versus digital? And when you know those basics I think it's going to make it easier as a technician in the field to troubleshoot this up because 90 plus percent of the calls has nothing to do with the controls coils, drains, maybe a fuse fan. So you know what I mean? Something burns out, but it's not the controls, especially if it's been started up correctly, does it happen sometimes?
• 1:14
  Yes. Do people go in and start playing around and change stuff? That's where the biggest issues that I've seen in the years and years I've been dealing with controls and stuff. So you did the first startup. How's it been going? So it's been a few months now. How's that one been running? Talk about what your process has been doing to potentially like fine tune it because after you do the startup and commissioning, that's not it.
• 1:15
  You know, you check all the points, you get it up and running, you pull down to temp, awesome, but that's not it for a startup and commissioning process. You want to talk a little bit over the last few months, what you've been doing and how you got that system running. Amazing.
• 1:16
  Chris: Yeah. So Cody was mostly involved in kind of the fine tuning of that.
• 1:17
  Cause Cody really understands CO2 systems like intricately. So there, I think, I believe that rack was actually significantly oversized. So we had to do some tweaking there to kind of make it. Run a bit smoother. But past that haven't heard very much, which is a good thing. If I don't hear about it, it's probably doing okay.
• 1:18
  Trevor: Yeah, the controls.
• 1:19
  Chris: Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, our, our tech support people they tell you when, when they get a call for something's wrong with the controls, even if they troubleshoot it and condemn the controller, say something must be wrong. When we get that controller returned back, it's something like 60.
• 1:20
  Almost 70 percent of the controllers have nothing wrong with them at all. So it's just, there's miscommunication between tech support and the technician. And that whole process of a technician goes to site, he's, he's troubleshooting with tech support. They condemn it. He's got to ship it back. They got to ship a new controller, which now the one they sent back was fine.
• 1:21
  So they have to pay for the new one and then they get the old one back. So now they've got an extra controller. That whole process is hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a service guy to get there, shipping, all of that stuff. So, really knowing how to troubleshoot and, and, and identify problems is, is really important.
• 1:22
  And our tech support people can only do so much. If, if they're working with a guy and he insists this relay is not changing state, and it actually is, You know, what can you do?
• 1:23
  Trevor: Right. You only can work with the information you get. And if the technician's given false information or information that he's not clear on, this is why, if you don't know, just say, you don't know when they ask you that question, when you're talking to textbook, cause they're not, if you make up stories and you're saying this has happened and that don't.
• 1:24
  Don't don't do that stuff. Just say, this is what I see. How do I actually test that? Even if you're 20 years in the industry, say, actually, what do I do? And they should be able to walk you through that tech support should be able to walk you there. Okay. Take your meter and go on one and two, and then go on five and six or whatever it is.
• 1:25
  And this is what it should like. If this is the programming in there, that's a good point. So let's talk a little bit about that. When you're troubleshooting controls, what, what are some of the things that the technician should do before they even call your tech support?
• 1:26
  Chris: Yeah. So a good example would be like a stepper valve.
• 1:27
  If a stepper valve is not doing what you think it's supposed to be doing there are ways to test the stepper output and there are ways to test the kind of connection through the coil of the valve. If you, on our controllers anyway, if you put a meter on the middle two pins of the stepper output, And that valve is moving, either pulsing open or closed, you're going to see a voltage pulse.
• 1:28
  I think it's of 12 to 20, 18, 24 volts, somewhere in there. And if you're not seeing that pulsing, that could be a bad stepper output. But if you are seeing that voltage pulsing, It's not the step output, the step output's good. So, okay. Maybe the stepper valve is not working well. There's a way to test for resistance across that valve's, coil.
• 1:29
  And if you're not getting a resistance of, I think it's like 80 to 110 ohms, if you're getting infinite resistance or some weird number, that could be the valve's. Coil is bad. So now you have a bad valve. And that's just, it is what it is. Either it needs to be replaced the valve does, or the, or the board does.
• 1:30
  'cause it's got a bad point.
• 1:31
  Trevor: Yeah. And so for that, should they unwire the valve, the test of both ways? Like, should they let that, that should get the 12 or 18 volts? Should they have the wires off or wires on or both
• 1:32
  Chris: wires? You couldn't do wires on. I think if you take the wires off because the board's still trying to do something, you'd still see voltage.
• 1:33
  It doesn't matter either way. I don't think you'd get a voltage pulse either way.
• 1:34
  Trevor: Yeah, no. Cause I was just thinking maybe that wire could be grounded or something like it's rubbed through or something somewhere that could cause some other issues. So, so that's one good point right there. Do all these checks before you make that, that phone call.
• 1:35
  And one, another thing is write every parameter down. So if it's a case controller, there's only so many, there could be a hundred, but if you get the manual out and you write every. Slowly go through it because I've done a lot of control training to our support online on on the phone Is that write every one of those down so, you know exactly what they are So when that when you do call you can say this is what it says if it's a number a letter It doesn't matter you are at that point What what are your thoughts on today?
• 1:36
  technicians Programming or setting up controllers. Do you feel it's there should be a certain process that they take every time? Because I know a lot of people they i'll do it this way with this controller I'll do it this way with this controller and just change it up What is your process when you're training a technician to work on your controllers case controllers will say are super e controllers
• 1:37
  Chris: So we're we're getting more into training of service technicians historically over the years I think it's like a, it's a labor shortage and time issue.
• 1:38
  They don't have enough time to, you know, go to our office and get training. Oftentimes we do training. I actually go to them and they've got like two groups of 10 guys or something who come in one day after the other, so they can kind of rotate people. They have people in the field still. And then people come and do training.
• 1:39
  We, we still don't have that many technicians who are they'll do little programming changes and stuff and kind of installation set up, but a lot of the actual programming of like rack controllers. That's not so much done by the service guys. We have what's called VARs value added resellers.
• 1:40
  So we have companies that they, they utilize our hardware and they, they go out in their business and they actually push implementation of our hardware. So they get special pricing for that and stuff like that. And we've got a few really good companies who, who also out and they, they do all the rack programming.
• 1:41
  They do all sorts of, well, most of it. I do some of it. Cody does some of it, but they do, they do a lot of it these days.
• 1:42
  Trevor: Yeah, no, and that's great. And the biggest thing is, is like when we talked on episode one 58, you got to get into those technical resources. So if you, it doesn't matter what control manufacturer you're working on, you roll up to an RDM, go and get the manual.
• 1:43
  You can't troubleshoot something. You don't understand how it works. Yes. It might have an electronic valve, a temperature probe and a pressure probe. You can check those, but inside that controller, if it's been running for six months or a year, fine. It's usually not the program.
• 1:44
  Chris: Yep. Yeah, exactly. That's a pretty good indicator.
• 1:45
  If it's, if it was fine before it, it didn't just break magically, it, nothing changed. Unless the controller, you know, shorted out or something happened, the wire
• 1:46
  Trevor: water in it or something like that, moisture, someone shorted it or got a surge. But to go in and change the, the parameters, that's not something you, you need to do on a daily basis.
• 1:47
  It is something to do to learn though. Mm-Hmm. . So when you go around, you're doing a startup or you have time to go around and. Understand how to log into it, understand all the parameters because you have the information out there for the technician to troubleshoot these things. And honestly, I've been through so many people's controllers over the years.
• 1:48
  It's, it's the same. You get inputs, you get outputs, and you change one parameter for, turn this on, turn that off, open this, close that. They might say in different terms, different ways. But they all have to do the same thing. It's refrigeration. At the end of the day, there might be a few more features here.
• 1:49
  You got floating suction on this versus this control. It doesn't have floating such, but they all are doing the same thing, keeping the customer's product cold.
• 1:50
  Chris: And the refrigeration technicians, they know refrigeration. So picking up controls, it's really, it's just learning the interface. Cause I've always said controls is just your inputs, your outputs, the logic in between.
• 1:51
  That's all it is. And then how do you interface with that? So, for example, I don't use Emerson or Danfoss really at all. But for me to go grab their manuals and learn their systems wouldn't be that hard. I'm pretty sure. Because I know RDM very well and it's, you know, it's controls.
• 1:52
  Trevor: Yeah, that's it. What you said there, the inputs, the outputs and that logic in between.
• 1:53
  You are not the technician. You're not creating that logic. Yes, there are some controllers that you can design your own programs. But you're not doing that out in the field. You don't really, as a service technician, you don't have to do that. That's already done before you get there eight months after the store's installed or two years after the store's installed, like it's, that's already done.
• 1:54
  You need to understand, okay, this board point burnt out. How do I switch it from this point to that next point? That's still freed up on there. Things like that. What are your thoughts on that? And, and technicians understanding that, like some of the basics for your guys control that you've seen, cause you do so many field service calls.
• 1:55
  What are some of the, that you wish the, not some more people would know before they called you?
• 1:56
  Chris: Yeah, just Especially like if you're talking about like our our rack controllers, they're more complicated and the the input output is not fixed They they're selectable So you're mapping your inputs and outputs based on where you want to put them on the board But our case controllers for example are really simple.
• 1:57
  The inputs outputs are the same per model. They never change And the case controller knows how to do one thing, control a case. You can't trick it into controlling an RTU or anything, it doesn't know how to do that, right? So, if you know, okay, I know how a case works, I know the refrigeration cycle, you should know what that controller should be trying to do.
• 1:58
  Even if it's Emerson, RDM, Danfoss, anything. That, you know, nobody's reinventing the wheel trying to make cases do backflips or anything. It's, it's, it's all kind of the same.
• 1:59
  Trevor: Yeah, and I like that your point there is that you have universal border points, which is pretty cool. Do you think there's a struggle with that where, okay, how do I change it from a pressure transducer point to a temperature border point or whatnot?
• 2:00
  Chris: Yeah, there can be, especially the rack controllers. Our rack controllers are the software itself. It's a very big program. It has thousands of points for parameters, input, output mapping, all that stuff, and most of them you don't use. Cause you, you just use what's there for your application. So it's, it's not always easy for people to kind of look at that and translate that into, okay, this is the program for this, this rack.
• 2:01
  It's, it's easier with a case controller. Cause it's just meant to control a case.
• 2:02
  Trevor: Yeah. What is one one thing that technician need to do more when they're working on RDM? Cause RDM is still, it's real new to North America. There's lots that you've been with them for 12 years. It's not like it's new to North America, but.
• 2:03
  It's gaining more popularity. I hear more people talking about it, starting to see it a bit more versus the three, three big ones for big ones. You guys are growing. What are some of the things that you want? You would like contractors, technician, or even end users to start doing to help prepare them when they start to see these controllers,
• 2:04
  Chris: contact us for training.
• 2:05
  Honestly, very few people do. And when, when people, when service companies reach out for training, and then we go do training, every time we leave that training, everyone's, You know, way above where they were, they're a lot more comfortable with the system, the network architecture of how things go together, how controllers work.
• 2:06
  And actually a lot of times, because these service contractors work with kind of a lot of smaller, like one off entities they'll actually walk out of the training going, I think we can use RDM, you know, our TVB program for. that customer for this application. So it gets the gears kind of turning in their head of, you know, how do we take care of our existing customers who have an issue where maybe they can't you know, buy a front end from a different controls company that's more expensive or whatever.
• 2:07
  So,
• 2:08
  Trevor: yeah, yeah, no. And I think that that is, it comes back to awareness. You know, because so many people have not heard of it before RDM. And a lot of them, people all, I didn't know that they were there. And, you know, I talked to people in Europe and it's like, Oh, it's big in the UK and in New Zealand, you know, different pockets around the world.
• 2:09
  But I think understanding how how to. Work on different control systems is going to make you a better control tech. As we said earlier, service technician, you don't have to be an expert at all controls. You need to know how to log in. You need to really know how to look at the graphs. That's a big one for me.
• 2:10
  Understand where the graphs are, because now you can help diagnose or troubleshoot a bit from the graph. What happened a month ago versus today or last year at this time? What did happen? What was the temperature? Well, the temperature here is the same today. So what changed?
• 2:11
  Chris: I used to do that for some of our customers back when I was in tech support and for the last company I worked for, they would actually get a work order through their work order system.
• 2:12
  And they would kick that work order straight to me to have me look at graph data and see what I thought was wrong with the case, you know, is the coil iced up, it's a very indicative graph. When it coalesces up, it's got a, Overall drift upward. It'll defrost, pull back down, but not hit set point. And it just kind of drifts up over three, five days until you finally get an over temperature alarm and you have a big problem.
• 2:13
  Trevor: Yeah, and I love it and I think that's it and staring at it more looking at it and just get more confidence with it because you cannot fix a mechanical problem by changing control set points Just everyone know that you can't fix the mechanical problem. So so cool. Yeah, i'd love to I want to dive into more rdm learn more about it We could talk here for days on this stuff.
• 2:14
  But but chris, how can people get all Hold a view, get a hold of RDM to learn a little bit more about this. We will do this again. We'll, we'll jump on and we'll get we'll get Cody on again. I'd love to dive into some more technical stuff with him as well. Cause I thought that last one on podcast one 58 was great for one 56. Well, how can people get ahold of you, get ahold of RDM if they want to learn more about what you guys do?
• 2:15
  Chris: So me directly would be C prom C P R O M at resource dm. com. That's my email. I won't give my phone number out because I only give my personal phone number out. Don't do that.
• 2:16
  Trevor: I don't want
• 2:17
  Chris: that on YouTube, but that's how I operate.
• 2:18
  I have a work phone, but I, I give people my personal number because if. If you're calling me, I want you to call me and be able to get ahold of me.
• 2:19
  Trevor: Yeah.
• 2:20
  Chris: The, the the rest of the team, if you emailed USA sales or USA accounts at resource dm. com, that'll get everyone on the sales team gets that. USA support at resourcedm.
• 2:21
  com is our tech support. The office number is 612 354 3923. Option one will take you to sales. Option two takes you straight to tech support. We've got four people in tech support these days. I think they're actually looking at hiring a fifth, so. Awesome. We're, yeah, we're, we're growing, you know, back in the day when we were first starting, it was, it was really hard to get your foot in the door.
• 2:22
  And now we're getting our foot in the door more and you know, people are actually suggesting that we. You know, suggesting us to end users rather than us after having to chase everyone. So
• 2:23
  Trevor: yeah, that's awesome. All this will be in the show notes. Definitely go down, check this show notes out there. A website will be there as well.
• 2:24
  Check that out. Chris, final question. What would be one tip for a technician control guys that you'd love? You'd love to share with them so they can be a little bit better tomorrow when they're out and working on your equipment.
• 2:25
  Chris: Read the manuals. And I'm not saying that as a cop out that, that is how I learned back in the day. So when I started, I did not know anything about refrigeration HVAC. I knew it existed, but that was about all I knew. Nothing about controls or anything. And I I just sat down and I read the manuals and because service technicians know refrigeration, they know HVAC for them to sit down and read the manuals, these concepts make sense to them.
• 2:26
  The set points, the terminology all makes sense. So really. You just have to sit down and go through stuff and, and, and learn how the, the kind of, how to interface with the controls.
• 2:27
  Trevor: I love that because that's it. When you know, the mechanic, the first step is knowing the mechanical side. Second step, reading those manuals.
• 2:28
  Because when I started training back in 20 years ago, I was reading stuff on TX, Velos, I didn't understand it. But when I started working for the manufacturer, I started reading them. I'm like, I get it. Light bulbs going off every time I'm reading something. Now I'm like, man, that makes sense. Now that makes sense.
• 2:29
  So I think that's a great tip. I really appreciate it. Chris, thank you for taking the time to come and chat with us on the refrigeration mentor podcast. Really appreciate it. And, and check, check out RDM. There's a lot of cool things that they got going on, continuing to grow. Great team. Check out the YouTube videos that we did before, and I'll see y'all at the next refrigeration mentor podcast.
• 2:30
  Chris, thank you so much.
• 2:31
  Chris: Thanks, Eric.
• 2:32
  Trevor: Awesome, man. That was fantastic. I really appreciate you taking the time to, to chat with me. I would love to, like, maybe me, you and Cody could come up with a little training program for technicians. On RDM stuff, you know, like a couple hours videos, that's all taken.
• 2:33
  I can edit them all to where there's a quiz afterwards. So they, I make them like, I'm doing a CO2 training in 15 minutes. I got a group of people from all around the world, but I make them go in and read the manuals. Like you got to go read these, here's the questions. So I'm challenging them or go do an assignment.
• 2:34
  You know what I mean? If they have a controller in the field. But I think if we sit down, I think we could do like a little training, probably 10 videos on the, on the basics, even get, getting them the service technicians. So they're like, man, we should be using more of this.
• 2:35
  Chris: Yeah. I would love to do that.
• 2:36
  One of my goals has been to somehow. You know, take the knowledge I have and put it down on video form. Cause then I've had the same conversations with people for years of just, here's how to do this. And this it's, it's much easier to just say, watch this video. It's five minutes, 10 minutes long. So,
• 2:37
  Trevor: and we can do it.
• 2:38
  Like I'm training, I don't go to, I don't have to go to the site. Like if the guys understand. The mechanical side, even the controls that you just go do this because that's how you did it. It's not like you were, you had, you had to read the stuff first, like you said, and then go try it. And then that's what, that's how I do all my trains, all online train people from around the world.
• 2:39
  Learn something today, go out in the field and do it tomorrow. Learn today. And then as a drip learning. So if you're interested in doing that, maybe we can come up with a little plan on how to, how to work on RDM RDM controllers. And it would just be like this with some slides and I can make it with meters.
• 2:40
  Okay. You go and put your meter here and here. Is that 18 volts DC? Is it pulsing? No. Okay. You know, that's the controller. Oh, no, it's the valve. Just like we talked about. And we'll have some visuals.
• 2:41
  Chris: I've got some like PowerPoint kind of training materials I've done. I'll, I'll send them over to you just so you can, you can look through them.
• 2:42
  It's just like. Wiring inputs, outputs, key settings, refrigeration cycle, stuff like that. So,
• 2:43
  Trevor: yeah. And like, we can walk through it and then this is, and then talk about, I think it's all about the calls. Like I got this called a thousand times and it's a temperature probe. You know what I mean? So you gotta take the temperature probe, check the resistance here, go back to this point, see if it's actually a point or the temperature probe, if it reads where, you know what I mean?
• 2:44
  Chris: And slowly
• 2:45
  Trevor: teach these guys, because that's the only way that it works. Like people don't want to sit eight hours in a classroom anymore.
• 2:46
  Chris: You know, it is. people are really, it just doesn't work for them. I had a training that I did. Out in Detroit, and it was really good. Everyone was good, except there was one guy who was just asleep.
• 2:47
  He did not want to be there. I was like, just send him to go do work in the field. He doesn't care, he's not retaining information, you know. It's unfortunate, but there are people that are like that, you know.
• 2:48
  Trevor: No, no, totally. And then not it. It's, it is, it is tough. You're out in the field working all the time, 10, 10 hours a day, 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day.
• 2:49
  And then now you've got to sit in a classroom for a day, two days, three days. It's tough.
• 2:50
  Chris: Yeah.
• 2:51
  Trevor: And that's why, yeah, let's maybe put some thing on the paper, kind of come up with some ideas. Cause I got a whole team that's helping me build these training layouts and stuff. And I'd love to have some more of that just to help teach the guys.
• 2:52
  Chris: Yeah. Awesome. Okay.
• 2:53
  Trevor: You have a fantastic day. Thanks again. And we'll chat again soon. Okay.
• 2:54
  Chris: All right. Sound good. Thanks. Yeah. Bye.