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People Knew the Earth Was Round Way Earlier Than You Think · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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  Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. And now let's hear it for
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  Speaker 1: our super producer, none other than the man himself, Max
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  Speaker 1: flat Earth Williams.
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  Speaker 2: I'm here and I'm like Kyrie Irving, I don't believe
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  Speaker 2: the Earth is round. Just kidding, No, the Earth is round.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you know that's an on air one eighty
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  Speaker 1: from all the memes you've been sending me low these
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  Speaker 1: many years. Our our colleague, my brother in podcast arms,
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  Speaker 1: mister Noel Brown is on Adventures, will be returning very soon.
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  Speaker 1: They call me Ben Bollen in various parts of the world,
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  Speaker 1: and on this show in particular. Now we're going to
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  Speaker 1: do something a little bit different today, folks, as Noel
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  Speaker 1: is on his various adventures and quest that we can't
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  Speaker 1: wait to hear about very soon. I have made a
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  Speaker 1: bit of a covenant off air, and I've asked you
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  Speaker 1: Max Williams, to serve some double duty as as a
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  Speaker 1: guest co host here. So can I get you to
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  Speaker 1: confirm on air that you're okay with that?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Frank, I was kind of tempted to tell you
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  Speaker 2: no and make you just do the episode solo. But
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  Speaker 2: they'll just chime in periodically, Yeah, just like once every
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  Speaker 2: like fifteen to twenty minutes with just like random facts,
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  Speaker 2: just seeing how awkward that be. But you know, I
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  Speaker 2: actually have to listen to the episode a couple times
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  Speaker 2: through the edit, and I don't know if I would
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  Speaker 2: be able to get through all that cringe.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I am going to choose to appreciate that. And
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  Speaker 1: I did cut my teeth, as you know, over the
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  Speaker 1: decade plus now, I've cut my teeth doing some solo podcasting,
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  Speaker 1: respect where it's due. I learned a lot of that
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  Speaker 1: from our own nemesis, Jonathan Strickland aka the Twister. R
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  Speaker 1: pal Dylan Fagan and I had had a show that
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  Speaker 1: I soloed for a while called Strange News Daily. But
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  Speaker 1: I couldn't be more pleased to have you riding with
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  Speaker 1: us in the in the front seat here of this
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  Speaker 1: episode's car. The car of this episode.
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  Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's got a driving around the world.
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  Speaker 1: The car. We're just driving around the world. So thank
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  Speaker 1: you again, Max. This is this is going to be
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  Speaker 1: a weird and interesting for us and I know that
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  Speaker 1: it calls out to both of us specifically. This is
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  Speaker 1: the story of how humans figured out Earth was round Earth.
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  Speaker 1: Right as planets go, it's pretty great. I would say
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  Speaker 1: three out of five.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, three and a half. I mean, it doesn't boil
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  Speaker 2: us instantly, but it's no Riza.
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  Speaker 1: There we go right and Max, you and Noel and
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  Speaker 1: myself and everybody that we have ever met, and everybody
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  Speaker 1: that you've ever met, fellow ridiculous historians, was born here
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  Speaker 1: on Earth. Human civilization, probably allegedly, so far as we know,
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  Speaker 1: human civilization has spent thousands upon thousands of years learning
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  Speaker 1: about this planet and all the things on or around it.
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  Speaker 1: Surprisingly enough, here in twenty twenty six, there's still so
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  Speaker 1: much more to learn along the way. We got a
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  Speaker 1: few things wrong.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of things wrong. And I mean, I
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  Speaker 2: guess the topic of today's episode is kind of one
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  Speaker 2: of these myths that I know I grew up with
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  Speaker 2: at least, and I'm assuming you group as well. I
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  Speaker 2: don't know if it's gotten out of it, but I
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  Speaker 2: remember being in like first second grade that whenever what
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  Speaker 2: is it October November, that day you're reading the books
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  Speaker 2: you're learning about how this guy's Italian who was sailing
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  Speaker 2: for Spain, went across the Atlantic Ocean, this real heroic
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  Speaker 2: journey and discovered that not only was there another giant
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  Speaker 2: land mass there, but that the Earth was round like
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  Speaker 2: all of these things. And then later to find out
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  Speaker 2: that while this guy did exist and he did sail
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  Speaker 2: across the Atlantic Ocean to this continent, all the contexts
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  Speaker 2: around this was lies. And also this guy sucks.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, The beginning of the old rhyme goes in
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  Speaker 1: fourteen hundred and ninety two Columbus sailed the Ocean blue.
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  Speaker 1: A lot of us in the audience are going to
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  Speaker 1: be familiar with this funny tall tale, Like you said, Max,
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  Speaker 1: the idea that most of human civilization thought the Earth
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  Speaker 1: was flat all the way up to the fourteen hundreds
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  Speaker 1: when a real drip, a real pill named Crystal Baal
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  Speaker 1: Cologne sailed the ocean and proved, hey, you don't actually
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  Speaker 1: fall off the edge. It's a great story. It turns
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  Speaker 1: out it is absolute fiction. And in today's episode we
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  Speaker 1: are going to figure out when people actually learned the
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  Speaker 1: Earth is round? And Max, when you and I are
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  Speaker 1: are doing our bit as research associates for our various episodes.
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  Speaker 1: You and I in particular like to include little Easter
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  Speaker 1: eggs right for Noel and myself, little things in the
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  Speaker 1: notes that are not going to make it on the air,
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  Speaker 1: or sometimes do. And just want you to know. The
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  Speaker 1: top heading here is for us. I wasn't going to
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  Speaker 1: say it on air, but I think we should. And
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  Speaker 1: I want to thank you in advance for the beep
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  Speaker 1: that you're about to give yourself. Can you give us
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  Speaker 1: the title?
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, life used to be terrifying and no one
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  Speaker 2: knew what was going on. Beep beep.
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  Speaker 1: That's about the size of it, right exactly?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean, depending on your origin story
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  Speaker 2: or origin belief, it's not going to sit here or
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  Speaker 2: stand here in my case and tell you what to believe.
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  Speaker 2: One thing that can be agreed upon. Humans have been
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  Speaker 2: around for a while, and for the vast majority of
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  Speaker 2: time that humans have been around, survival has not been
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  Speaker 2: the easiest thing. So if you're gonna sit around trying
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  Speaker 2: to debate, I wonder if this world is round, you're
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  Speaker 2: gonna probably just starve or get a cut and die
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  Speaker 2: or be eaten by something. You're really kind of more
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  Speaker 2: focused on this whole you know, surviving thing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's easy to take the shape of the
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  Speaker 1: earth for granted today, or the shape of planets in general.
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  Speaker 1: And it's also for most of human history, for most
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  Speaker 1: people who lived and died here. It was a very academic,
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  Speaker 1: non important point. It's not the shape of the earth
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  Speaker 1: is not something you can easily see with your own eyes,
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  Speaker 1: because humans are in general very small in comparison to
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  Speaker 1: the scale of the Earth. And you know, this has
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  Speaker 1: happened to all of us in the audience tonight. You
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  Speaker 1: have maybe traveled to a very flat part of the world,
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  Speaker 1: like the endless plays of Iowa, or the Upper Midwest
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  Speaker 1: here in the United States, or maybe the right kind
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  Speaker 1: of desert environment. Then you get out and you look
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  Speaker 1: around and it really does look flat. It looks like
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  Speaker 1: it's just flat. It goes on forever. As a result,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we cannot blame ancient peoples and communities for
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  Speaker 1: looking around and shrugging and saying, uh, yeah, I guess
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  Speaker 1: that's the uh, that's the edge of the place. And
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  Speaker 1: this reminds us of one of our absolute favorite video
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  Speaker 1: game series or franchises, folks. Max and I are huge
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  Speaker 1: fans of a game called Civilization so much so that
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  Speaker 1: we will text each other about it. We will, we will.
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  Speaker 1: Actually we've actually held off recordings sometimes just to talk
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  Speaker 1: about updates on Civilization.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a common go to for when we're QA
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  Speaker 2: and stuff, so like listening through, you know, our ears
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  Speaker 2: are occupied and I'm like, I'll start a play through
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  Speaker 2: with Sweden before we really dive into this. Have you
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  Speaker 2: converted to SIV seven yet or are you still on
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  Speaker 2: SIV six?
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  Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm still one controversial right now. I'm still
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  Speaker 1: on SI six bro because it's uh, I'll even go
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  Speaker 1: back to CIV five, but I'm still on Civilization six because,
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  Speaker 1: like you said, it becomes a kind of comforting activity.
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  Speaker 1: The way the game is designed is brilliant and it's psychological. Uh,
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  Speaker 1: it's psychological manipulation to keep you just just rewarding you
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  Speaker 1: a little bit every turn and keeping your attention.
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  Speaker 2: But not hit stuff down.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And there's something comforting and pleasing and the
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  Speaker 1: repetition and the progress. It's it's similar to like a
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  Speaker 1: fidget spinner almost, or for some people in the audience,
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  Speaker 1: it's similar to uh, playing with the rosary. You know,
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  Speaker 1: it continues, it continues ed, what about you, Max, What's
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  Speaker 1: first off, what's the controversy between Civilization seven versus six?
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  Speaker 2: Well, first and foremost, said Rosary, which after playing a
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  Speaker 2: Hollow Night Silk Song, I cannot think of any differently
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: now because that's the currency in that game, and it
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  Speaker 2: is the most brutal economy in any of the game ever.
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  Speaker 2: That game is so hard, but it's beautiful. But I
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  Speaker 2: have I have tried to go over SIB seven. The
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  Speaker 2: controversy is, at least in my opinion, SIB seven is
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  Speaker 2: not very good and SEB six is tremendous, And to
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  Speaker 2: your point, also SIF five is also TREMENDOUSIF five is
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  Speaker 2: way harder than SIB six in my opinion, though SIVE six,
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  Speaker 2: I think is actually probably in my opinion, is pretty easy.
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  Speaker 2: I tried a few months ago to go in seven,
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  Speaker 2: but I just it just I think is just so
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  Speaker 2: good that it's hard to get off of it. But hopefully,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I remember when SIM six first came out,
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  Speaker 2: it took me like four or five years to get
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  Speaker 2: off of SIV five to this comfort. I was talking
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  Speaker 2: to my dash about this and it's like, you know, he,
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  Speaker 2: you know, eighties nineties video games. He was very in
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  Speaker 2: that earlier wave like first like games coming Home and
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  Speaker 2: eventually we'll talk about Around at Earth by the way.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're getting to it.
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  Speaker 2: But he I talked to him, and it's like, the
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  Speaker 2: funny thing about sim is like it's the most entertaining
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  Speaker 2: game of all time, and it's also like doing your taxes.
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  Speaker 1: That's a perfect comparison, Max, because there is it's very procedural, right,
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  Speaker 1: and there are formulas to learn, there are stats to
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  Speaker 1: play with in balance. Here's why we're mentioning civilization the game.
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  Speaker 1: We're mentioning it because civilization the phenomena gets a pretty
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  Speaker 1: good depiction in Civilization the Game, regardless of which iteration
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  Speaker 1: of civilization you play, it do this astonishing job of
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  Speaker 1: depicting the experience of early ancient peoples. When you begin
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  Speaker 1: the game, you've got your little tribe. You're probably placed
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  Speaker 1: randomly on a world map, and at the beginning you
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  Speaker 1: can only see a little bit of the land around you.
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  Speaker 1: The rest of the world. The rest of the map
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  Speaker 1: is shrouded in darkness. It only becomes visible as you
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  Speaker 1: explore your planet and advance through the game.
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  Speaker 2: Right, and very similar to how early people were. You
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  Speaker 2: don't know what's around you, you don't know what dangers
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  Speaker 2: around you, and survival is of all paramount importance. But
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  Speaker 2: you know, unlike the game, you don't know you're about
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  Speaker 2: to get sailing in five turns or three turns you'll
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  Speaker 2: get a monument, or you're about to grow that tile
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  Speaker 2: where you'll get a luxury resource. You're just trying to survive,
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  Speaker 2: so you're not really busy try and figure out stuff
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  Speaker 2: like as you wrote here, the shape of the planet,
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  Speaker 2: existence on far away consonants.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we've got at this point in history, we've
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  Speaker 1: got other more practical concerns, as you said, chief of
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  Speaker 1: which is not dying and staying alive, hopefully long enough
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  Speaker 1: to reproduce. So these big questions of abstract concepts, like
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  Speaker 1: the shape of the planet you live on, they're going
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  Speaker 1: to be largely informed by religious beliefs and spiritual thoughts
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  Speaker 1: instead of scientific inquiry. We got to tell you, we
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  Speaker 1: always like to hit this point whenever we talk about
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  Speaker 1: the ancient past. The people who were alive at this time,
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  Speaker 1: they're not knuckleheads. They just had understandably different priorities. Civilization
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  Speaker 1: took a while to grow. It took a while for
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  Speaker 1: humans to figure out agriculture, which led to more stationary lifestyles,
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  Speaker 1: and during that period, the majority of people lived and
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  Speaker 1: died roughly in the same area they were born in,
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  Speaker 1: So you would only have migration over long distances due
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  Speaker 1: to social upheaval or disease or famine or war. So like,
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  Speaker 1: even nomadic communities would typically have a set range of travel,
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  Speaker 1: and they move back and forth from one place to
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  Speaker 1: the next cyclically as the season's changed.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Which makes sense because if you're going to the
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  Speaker 2: same areas, you at least know what's there. You go
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  Speaker 2: somewhere new, you don't know what's there, and discovering a
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  Speaker 2: new place with a new biome is like basically going
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  Speaker 2: to a new planet. Oh and to a point you
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  Speaker 2: made a second ago about how you know people of
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  Speaker 2: the past were not knuckleheads. I like to think about.
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  Speaker 2: I like to do a thought exercise about how kind
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  Speaker 2: of basically screwed I would be if you've removed away
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  Speaker 2: Like some absumptions that we have in life, like I
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  Speaker 2: don't know how to electrically wire something, but I can
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  Speaker 2: do things with electricity, Like at least I can do
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  Speaker 2: editing but if you took away electricity, I wouldn't be
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  Speaker 2: able to fix it. We have this science, we have
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  Speaker 2: this built up knowledge and accumulation over time. Where these
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  Speaker 2: people were laying down the foundations of that stuff. They
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  Speaker 2: don't have those foundations. So I think that's an important thing.
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  Speaker 2: And to continue on that point, you know, critical thought,
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  Speaker 2: construction of theory, all this stuff. Those are privileges. And
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  Speaker 2: obviously you have some stuff like the early Phoenicians with
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  Speaker 2: writing and stuff, but where your basic needs are not met,
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  Speaker 2: it's hard to focus on other things because you have
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  Speaker 2: to go meet these basic needs.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well said man. You have to advance past a
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  Speaker 1: certain threshold of sustainability. You have to be able to
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  Speaker 1: support some contingent to people in your community who are
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  Speaker 1: not constantly just trying to survive, the people who for
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  Speaker 1: some reason have enough of a support structure to sit
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  Speaker 1: down and think about stuff. And when people first reach
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  Speaker 1: that threshold in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and Latin
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  Speaker 1: America Europe, there also was Okay, we eventually get the thinkers,
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  Speaker 1: but we don't get a lot in the way of
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  Speaker 1: fact checking. That becomes a thing way way later, and
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  Speaker 1: humans are still you know, not super great at it.
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  Speaker 1: So if you are Max Williams in the ancient past,
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  Speaker 1: your understanding of the world is probably going to be
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  Speaker 1: based on the statements of the local religious authority. They're
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  Speaker 1: going to pitch you a story and you probably just
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  Speaker 1: accept it, not because you know you are thick, as
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  Speaker 1: the Brits would say or anything like that, but because
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  Speaker 1: there aren't alternative explanations to consider. And in fact, if
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  Speaker 1: you have an alternative explanation, or if you encounter one,
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be treated as blasphemy. People often died
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  Speaker 1: in cartoonishly gruesome ways for pitching other narratives.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, check out our two part series of the Past
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  Speaker 2: where we talk about his who were horrifically punished despite
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  Speaker 2: being right. It is not the cheeriest series we did,
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  Speaker 2: especially the second part which is just about Alan Turing,
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  Speaker 2: which is just like, this guy was right about so
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: many things and history did him dirty. But yeah, and
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  Speaker 2: to that point, it's just like, you know, I might
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  Speaker 2: have it even thought, but you know, I don't have
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  Speaker 2: theories and stuff. I don't have a way to prove
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  Speaker 2: this wrong. And also it's just the fear of it all.
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  Speaker 2: Like I know, we've done a past episode on the
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  Speaker 2: origins of ostracize. Yes, pots smashing him and stuff like that. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: especially you see like one guy bring up maybe maybe
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  Speaker 2: the Earth is round and he gets thrown out of
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  Speaker 2: town and it gets eaten by a lion as soon
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: as it gets outside. I'm not going to bring that up.
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  Speaker 1: Let's also consider one of my favorite parables in this genre,
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  Speaker 1: which we mentioned in that previous episode. We can never
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  Speaker 1: forget that the human being is a specific type of primy.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: It's the kind of prime me that will kill its
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: own people for politely suggesting that you wash your hands
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: before surgery. Shout out to Samulweiss. He figured out a
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: way to save millions of lives. They beat the crap
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: out of them and threw them in an asylum.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's not great, but yeah, thankfully though,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: with time and evolution, this new group of people that
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I think we both squarely belong in started to emerge
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: called nerds, and nerds like things we are kind of
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: it's kind of an obsession over things. And obviously there's
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: many types of nerds, but growing about people who really
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: liked things like geography, physics, math, space, and like, you
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  Speaker 2: know what. They started doing was recording and keeping track
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: of this stuff, often getting horribly punished for proving things
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: that were right but right. If you want to hear
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  Speaker 2: us talk more about that, check out some past episodes.
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  Speaker 2: We're gonna just kind of breeze past that. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Again, we just to give you the long and short
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  Speaker 1: of it, folks. We cannot stress this enough. Society was
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  Speaker 1: still actively killing a lot of these nerds or treating
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  Speaker 1: them as absolute whack jobs. Yet a win is a win.
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  Speaker 1: That's a bit of a quick context on science, religion,
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  Speaker 1: the grim reality of human life. Now we get to
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  Speaker 1: the myth. All right, we told you the pitch. The
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  Speaker 1: pitch is this. The entirety of human civilization assumed the
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  Speaker 1: world was flat all the way up until fourteen ninety two.
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  Speaker 1: Crystal bol Cologne aka Christopher Columbus, aka a bunch of
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  Speaker 1: different names that he gave himself. He sailed across the Atlantic,
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  Speaker 1: he discovered the quote unquote New World, and the story,
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  Speaker 1: the myth really paints him as a hero, and they say,
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  Speaker 1: look at this, he's a ballsy guy. He convinces King
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  Speaker 1: Ferd and Isabella, his Spanish patrons, to back him on
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  Speaker 1: this wild, dangerous gamble and he stands up in front
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  Speaker 1: of court and he says, Earth is round, and if
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  Speaker 1: you give me the ships I need, I will sail
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  Speaker 1: west and eventually I will land in Asia. Dude, this
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  Speaker 1: story was so popular, he got printed textbooks, he got
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  Speaker 1: taught in otherwise credible schools and halls of education. And
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  Speaker 1: as you pointed out so beautifully at the top of
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  Speaker 1: this episode, macks. A lot of us in the audience
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  Speaker 1: heard this story as kids. It just happens to be
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  Speaker 1: complete bunk. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: No, the story of Christopher Columbus is absolutely ridiculous. Is
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  Speaker 2: just full of so much lies and propaganda and stuff.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: I remember actually one time pointing out to somebody who
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: was trying to defend Christopher Columbus to me. They were saying, like,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: he's like, oh, he's one of the greatest Americans ever.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I'm like, he literally died undreds of years before America
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: was a thank buddy. You got to realize that, Like,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I get it, I get it. I'm not going to
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: sit here and tell people what believe and whatnot. But
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: that is actually just facts right there. But yeah, I mean,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: as you put it, Chrissy Boy, ain't no hero. Yeah,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: never was. And this whole Earth being round, which this
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: is the problem I have with the story completely. You
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: tell me, this guy went in front of the King
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: and Queen of Spain, a superpower of the time, and
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: told them that they're idiots and thinking the world is flat,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: and I'm gonna sell around them. And they're like, oh,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: you know what, Sure, here's a couple of ships, go
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: do it. No, no one is that bad at investing. Yeah.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this was a shark tank moment, and the story
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: is unbelievable if only for that specific aspect. And there's
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: a historian who often gets quoted remarking about this guy
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: named Jeffrey Burton Russell, who points out, quote educated person
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: in the history of Western civilization from the third century
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: BC onward believed that the Earth was flat end quote no.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Education people living today.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, everybody's catching strays on this one. So, if anything,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Chris had funding problems because he just underestimated the size
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: of the planet by a cartoonish amount. He thought Earth
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: was way smaller than it actually is. That was the
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: complication in his sharp tank moment. He spent years arguing
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: with King Ferdinand's people essentially about scheduling, about how long
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: it would take him to travel across the sea to China.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: And also, as we can tell, he had no idea
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: that there were two gigantic continents between Europe and Asia
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: if you sail west.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Right, because it's like, you know, here's the thing, as
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Magellan would later find, getting even just past this big
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: continent is ridiculous, Like getting across the Atlantic Ocean is
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: a lot. Going all the way down to Chile and
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: around is lot, and then you have the hardest task
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: of it all called the Pacific Ocean, which is massive.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Massive.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I don't know the answer to this,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: but just asking you do you do you know how
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: big he thought it was, Like how long it took
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: he thought it would take just to go from Spain
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: to India.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: We know he underestimated the size of the planet on
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the order of like twenty five percent. He thought it
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: was twenty five percent the side of its actual size.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it's kind of like sailing across a big sea,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: he thought.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And that's not necessarily his fault, because you know,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: they have very limited information available. But we are perhaps
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: being a little bit too credulous when we accept this
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: myth entirely. So how did this myth get started in
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: the first place? This is cool. It did not start
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: in Columbus's time, nowhere near it. And when we think
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: about that, that makes sense because his contemporaries, world leaders
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: and scholars of the day when he was sailing, they
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: already knew Earth was round, So it would not make
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: sense for them to care about this story. It would
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: be such a non issue. It would be as if
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: we got together and wrote a breaking news report that
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk has proved people breathe air. Everybody would read
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: the headline and go, why are Yeah, we know, like
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: we know.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So Weirdly enough, the myth of Columbus in the round
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: world didn't come until centuries after the fact, the actual
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: year being eighteen twenty eight, with a fiction writer. Let's
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: make sure to know that a fiction writer by of Washington, Irving,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: who gained a interest and obsession with this guy with
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: this guy cologne, and so a little more on Irving.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: He's a pretty famous writer. He published the book Rit
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Van Winkle, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow. I'm guessing you've
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: heard of those ben along with other stuff. And you
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: know this wasn't just some bloke. This guy was out
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: here hobnobbing and hanging out with the rich and famous.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: He was well known and people, you know, when this
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: guy said stuff, they were like, Okay, let's listen to
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: this guy, including you know, his friends in you know,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: the politics.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So we see this happen in our modern
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: age of celebrity worship. You have probably seen those weird
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: articles where someone will say, what does jaw Rule think
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: about this geopolitical event?
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Or what is your noct thinks about this?
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Where is Jah? Yeah? Irving Washington. Irving is sort of
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: like that guy for these people. At the time. He
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: is friends with some of, as you said, the most
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: high flutant folks in the government. One of these guys
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: is a dude named Alexander Hill Everett. He is the
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: US Minister to Spain at this point in history, being
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: called the minister to a specific country, it's pretty much
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: what you would call an ambassador today. So Alex hits
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: up his buddy Irving and says, hey, man, come kick
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: it with me in Madrid. It's dope af or something
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to that effect. Washington. Irving takes alex up on the offer,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: so he travels to Madrid, which takes a very long
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: time back. Then he falls in love with this huge
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: archive of documents all about Christopher Columbus. He's feeling it, man,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and if for fellow writers in the crowd, you know
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Irving is inspired. He knows enough
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: to take the inspiration whenever it comes. So he tells himself,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I'm going to write a biography of Columbus. It's going
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to be the definitive biography, and I'm gonna use all
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: this stuff I'm learning about him now. And it does
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: make sense, Max, because despite being just a terrible person,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Christopher Columbus lives this cinematic, fascinating life. In the course
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: of our research for this, by the way, we found
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: that even after he died, he still traveled way more
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: than most Europeans.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Right, So you know, I think we should probably take
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: this one go back and forth just to kind of
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: illustrate how ridiculous of a tour his body took. So
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: he initially dies fifteen oh six and he's buried in Valedoilid, Spain.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: I totally pronounced that correct. But then three years later
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: his remains get taken and put into his family mausolem
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: or mausoleum actually named after the ruler Mausulus. Yes, it's
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: got to be buried in maslm over in Sevea.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: And then in fifteen forty two his remains get transferred
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: to Santo Domingo, Hispaniola, which is now in the Dominican Republic.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: And then again a big time jump about two hundred
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: and fifty two hundred and fifty three years, if we
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: want to be specific, his bones are moved to Havana, Cuba,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: and then even more later, one hundred years later, they're
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: shipped back across the Atlantic back to Servella. Am I
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: saying that one right, Sevilla Sevilla, Sevilla in eighteen ninety six,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: So yeah.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So what we're saying is this guy's whole existence,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: sith lord of colonialism that he may be, his whole
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: existence makes for a real page turner. So it also
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: makes sense that Irving wants to write about it. But
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: there's an issue that you had you had just emphasized there,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Bax a little bit earlier. Our buddy Irving is an
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: excellent writer. He's an excellent author. We're not going to
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: take that away from him, but he's an excellent fiction writer.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: He's an excellent fiction author. So even though Chris's life
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: is full of strange, fascinating events, Irving can't help but
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: judge it up with all sorts of embellishment and tall tales.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: He doesn't want the facts to get in the way
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: of a good story, like our buddy Aaron Tracy said
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: talking about Roald Dahl. So Irving adds a little dramatic tension,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: and he claims that Chris has fought the system, that
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Christopher Columbus is the first real guy to claim Earth
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: is round, that he bucked this system of the day,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: that he beefed with the church and the geographers alike,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: that he talked trash to the royal court, tossed a
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: middle finger to the haters, and single handedly revolutionized scientific thought.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: This is all malarchy.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all made up. But when your fam it's
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: like Irving, and to a point earlier in this episode,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: when you don't really have people who can sit up,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: stand up and just say no, you're wrong, or like,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: you know, obviously there's a lot more research at this
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: point in time, but you know, this guy's sat here,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: he's famous, He's done all this research. He says, it's true,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: who's gonna call him out? He is, as you wrote
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: here in your wonderful research brief. By the way, shout
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: out to Ben here for this research. He is phone
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: book famous, meaning he could write the most boring yellow
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: pages or white pages even thing, and it'll be a
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: runaway hit because he's just that famous. And so when
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: he publishes this book, A History of the Life and
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Voyages of Christopher Columbus, massive hit released in four volumes,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: wild praise, breathless reviews, McGraw Hills are already putting in their textbooks.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I'm making that last part up, but it might be true.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Prove me wrong.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: In other ways, it's just it's a hit. Everyone wants it,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: and everyone believes it.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody who can read is talking about it, and
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: virtually everyone who snags a copy of this considers it
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: to be gospel, God's honest truth. Christopher Columbus told in
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: detail with one hundred percent accuracy. Other authors fall for
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: this as well. They pick up on the thread. They
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: cite Washington Irving extensively, especially other famous authors like the
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: French guy Antoine Jean le Troum. This BS becomes accepted
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: as historical fact and That is why even today you
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: will still hear some people falling for the whole thing. Now,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: we got to give credit where it's due. Nice one, Irving.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: We don't know why you did it, but you pulled
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: it off.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Man, Thanks, Bud, You're so great, you really you know, yeah,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: help that lout. But I mean, I guess you know,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: are we any better than Irving if we don't tell
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: the truth? I mean, obviously yes we are, but not
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: by large enough margin that I think we should probably
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: dive into it. So again, you know, as we've mentioned
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: multiple times in this episode the show everything, ancient people
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: were just as smart as us. And you know there was,
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: you know, some very smart people, some very dumb people.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: There's some good people, bad people, blah blah blah. They
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: just didn't have the same access that we have now.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: They didn't have this foundation of knowledge that we had.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, they had their own pantheon of pet peeves,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: just like everybody does today. They had their own goals,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: they had daily annoyances, fart jokes. Then is now we're
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: still peak comedy. Not everybody was exceptional, But I love
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: the point you're making, Max. The vast majority of people
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: are far from stupid. They just don't have They don't
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: have things like in psych with pedos right. They don't
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: have communication channels that allow them to see alternative viewpoints,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: or the opportunity podcasts right for better or worse. I
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: love the idea of a medieval podcast or late antiquity podcasts.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: They don't have these opportunities. But humans have always been
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: pretty good at observing the world around them. We know
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: as far back as the fifth century BCE they're written
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: explorations or speculations about Earth as a sphere that comes
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: from various Greek philosophers. Then you go a little further
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: to three hundred BCE because, as you and I were
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: talking about off air, BCE counts down.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we see something so anxiety inducing because you're just like,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: every year you're going down in number, and you're like,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: what are we counting down to? How bad joke draw
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: myself for that one?
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: No, that's great though, you know, let's keep the bad
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: joke going because I've always thought it had to be
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: weird for Jesus Christ, you know what I mean, He's
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: growing up and it's counting down, and he asked, he
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: asked God, why the system is counting down, and God
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: is like, let's put a pen in that.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: You'll know soon enough.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Exactly right. There are other jokes we could do here,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: but we're gonna keep it pg. Thirteen. So all right,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: it's three hundred BCE circa thereabouts, and there's a Greek
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: ethnographer named Megasthenes and Megas Theenes shouts out Brahman nerds
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: in India, and he says, these guys have already figured
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: out Earth was a sphere, although to be fair, they
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: did also argue that Earth is not just a sphere
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: but the center of the universe. This is a classic
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: common human mistake that was a lot.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: More work to, right. I mean, that's the one you
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: can just you can't really. I mean, the well known
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: fact is you can go by the ocean and get
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: on something high, you can see that the Earth is round,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: it starts rounding.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: You can't go look at the stars and figure out
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: that we're rotating around that big bright thing that you
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: shouldn't stare at.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because the perspective is so strange. It will take
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: it will take a lot of other very clever people
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: to even prove the heliocentric model of the planets, and
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: then when they prove the heliocentric model for a time,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: they argue that the Sun is the center of the universe.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: So you know, it's a work in progress, it's a
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: learning thing. Around the same time, in this period in
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: BCE BCE history, Hellenistic astronomers proved the spherical shape of
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Earth as a concrete fact through math. They also attempted
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: the first known calculations of Earth's circumference. This knowledge later
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: migrates slowly throughout Triumphant Disaster to the Romans. Then it
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: spreads again slowly throughout what is sometimes called the Old World,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: through late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, and then our
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: returning guests that you mentioned just a few minutes ago.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Ferdinand Magellan and company finally demonstrate the concept that the
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Earth is round. They experientially prove it, beginning in fifteen
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: nineteen by literally circumnavigating the globe, sailing around the planet
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: in an amazing, preposterous, disastrous expedition that was, to your
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: earlier point, literally more dangerous than space travel is today.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: And Magellan didn't end his story the way he would
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: have preferred.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: Didn't he die on that journey.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I can't remember, yeah, yeah, non consensual death as well.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Did he get put in a in a barrel of
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: pickles like Frederick Barbarossa or did they respect his body?
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: To our knowledge, he did not end up literally pickled
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: in a barrel. But there's a reason you're bringing this up, Max.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well see that kind of just seemed to
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: be a thing, a thing people did. So Frederick Barbarossa,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: when he was doing a crusade, how he died. We
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: actually have an episode of an episode about this. He
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: got annoyed at his army, he rode off on his own.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: His horse threw him off on a river and he
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: drowned it covered in armor, and his son wanted to
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: preserve his body, so he put him in a barrel
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: of vinegar, thinking that would work. It didn't. But then
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: we also had, you know, a recent classic where we
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: had a famous admiral I think it was a barrel
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: of brandy they put him in, Yeah, because they were
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: trying to I mean, yeah, trying to preserve the body.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: You're These journeys took a very long time, so I
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: was curious because I don't remember which part of the
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: journey Magellan died, Like I think they were in the
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Pacific Ocean.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: By that point. Yes, yeah, you're correct. They were over
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: in the Philippines and they spent several weeks there attempting
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: to convert local populations to Christianity. Eventually they got caught
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: up in something we call the Battle of Machtan today,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: and Magellan got struck by a spear and then surrounded
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and murdered with other weapons. This is not the way
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: he wanted to go out, but his journey did did
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: become the first solid proof that the Earth is a sphere,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: and and he was just proving something that people have
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: known since before the time of Jesus Christ. That's the thing.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: So don't fall for the Columbus grift whatever.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: You proving that. Showing up at some place and telling
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: a bunch of people that what they believe is wrong
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: and you need to follow that is not a popular
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: thing to do. Improve that.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Yes they did, Yeah, that was the the The actions
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: of Bacton were perhaps one of the more violent predecessors
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: to fact checking.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'll take that, Yeah, no, I'll take the drummerriff. Okay, no, no,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. So Max, I cannot thank you
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: again enough for hopping on and and co hosting this story,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: which is obviously pretty important to both of us because
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: we were misled in our formative years, as was our
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: brother in podcasting arms, mister Noel Brown.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know, it's been an absolute pleasure of being
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: on here. It's not that hard to track me down
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: and get me on air, you know, it's kind of around.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: But I didn't want to leave us with one quote
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: from my favorite band of all time, Modest Mouse, and
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: the line is, yeah, the universe is shaped exactly like
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: the Earth. We go straight, long enough, we'll run into
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: an ice wall that'll stop us. Special thanks also to
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: our composer and my real actual facts brother, Alex Williams.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah you have you have me in the first half
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: on that Modest Spouse riff. I'm not gonna lie. That's
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: one of my favorite songs of their.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: It's an amazing song. This is my senior quote.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful, beautiful song. And this that you're hearing
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: is a beautiful song made by as you said, Alex Williams.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: We also want to give a big thank you to
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist, aj Bahamas, Jacobs, Doctor Rachel
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Big Spinach, Lance and then our peer show Ridiculous Crime.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: If you like us, you'll love them Max. Who else
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: do we want to think? It could be a random person?
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Do you want it ain't modest? Mouse?
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Let's thank my friend Rob Okay, it's gonna shut him out.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Oh my friend Eric who just had his first child
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: last week. Congratulations Eric, because gives them sleep. Hot Just kidding,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: You're not gonna get any sleep, you fool.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: And, as my pal Lule always likes to say, we'll
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: see you next time, folks.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.