Latest / GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast / The Story of Stevie Nicks: the poetic teenager who became rock royalty

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The Story of Stevie Nicks: the poetic teenager who became rock royalty · GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast

• Garage to Stadiums Music History Podcast The Story of Stevie Nicks Hosted by Dave Anthony Guest: Zoe Howe, author of Vision, Dreams & Rumours: A Portrait of Stevie Nicks Dave Anthony 0:01 Hi there. I'm Dave Anthony, and this is the garage to stadiums podcast rated as one of the top 5% of podcasts globally. On each episode, we tell you the story of how one of our music legends rose from obscurity to fame and play some of the songs that marked that journey. Welcome to garage to stadiums. Today's episode is the story of Stevie Nicks. This is the story of a young girl who kept notebooks full of poetry and had a deep love of dance. She eventually met a kindred spirit, a musical and romantic partner, and together they took a chance on their dreams. In a strange twist of fate, they crossed paths with a once famous band on the brink of collapse, joined it and helped transform it to become the number one act in America. Stevie X didn't just revive Fleetwood Mac. She helped reshape its destiny. Alongside the band's success, she built a solo career that, combined with her work in Fleetwood, Mac has contributed to over 150 million albums sold. But as you'll hear, her journey was far from smooth. Stevie faced serious personal challenges, the kind that could have ended the dreams of many, and still she pushed forward. Today, we're joined by acclaimed author Zoe how whose newly updated book vision dreams and rumors, a portrait of Stevie Nicks, peels back the layers of myth and magic surrounding this mystical performer. Welcome to garage, the stadium. Zoe, Zoe 1:33 thank you very much, Dave, it's lovely to be here. Dave Anthony 1:39 We are going to talk about one of the more electric performers in the history of rock, and it's Stevie Nicks. Of course, I wondered if you could go back and tell us about her childhood. In particular, there's some interesting things with her grandfather and performing. Can you illuminate us on some of the things that may have impacted this little girl? Zoe 2:00 It's a it's a really interesting part of her story, her childhood, because, you know, music and performance just very much in her blood, in her DNA. And when she was a tiny tot, she started singing with her grandfather, AJ Nix, who was a really kind of maverick character. He used to sort of, I think he made his living playing pool and and he was a musician and a singer, multi instrumentalist, you know, you name it. He could play it banjo, fiddle, and very into country and western music. And so you kind of ride the freight trains. He's a very kind of romantic character, and a huge influence on little Stevie. And I think it was when she was very little. He brought over a stack of 40 fives, and they just listened to them together. And she started, you know, he started singing, and she started harmonizing. And this, this lovely thing, you know, started to kind of bubble up, this lovely kind of harmony between them in more ways than one. And so he was like, I'm on to something here. You know, she needs to come on tour with me. And so he took her around the kind of bars and taverns around the Midwest and and they would sing together. And so she was, you know, a box office draw from the age of about five, and living this amazing, amazing life on the road with her grandfather. And, you know, so there's kind of this sort of almost vaudevillian, sort of traveling show person vibe to her early life, which I think was really instrumental, obviously, to everything else she went on to do, and is definitely a key part of not just her musical influences, but those early experiences of learning how to please a crowd and developing your personal charisma. You know, she couldn't fail with a background like that. Dave Anthony 3:49 There was some, I'll call it family tension between the grandfather and the parents. Didn't the grandfather want to take her on the road and do more gigs and so forth. Zoe 4:00 I think, yes, it got to the stage where I think her parents were like, Oh, I think, you know, doing a few gigs here and there on the road is one thing, but going around the whole country and, you know, when you're that young, I think they had to kind of put a sort of a stop to it, and that unfortunately caused a big row between the family and AJ Nixon, and He kind of stormed off for a couple of years, didn't speak to them, which I think really broke Stevie's heart. Dave Anthony 4:26 One mercurial figure who will reappear in this story as we chat is going to be a fellow named Lindsay Buckingham. He, of course, would go on to become her partner, her bandmate. I and a variety of things in her life. How did they meet and then, how did they sort of strike up a musical relationship? Well, it's just Zoe 4:51 such a, you know, the whole story is this kind of series of, you know, serendipitous happenings, as you would imagine in a story about Stevie Nicks. But it. They were teenagers. They were a year apart at school, and Stevie had a kind of peripatetic life, not just from the point of view of kind of moving around, doing, you know, shows with her grandfather and things like that, but also the family moved around for work. So she would she'd been to sort of numerous schools. She became very kind of adaptable and good at sort of picking up and settling into a new environment. Another thing that's very useful for being on tour and being a traveling musician. Dave Anthony 5:27 But you're right, they moved all around, didn't they? The family was in various places. Zoe 5:33 They did. And I think that was really formative to her character as well, because I think she learned really quickly. You know, you can't take ages to sort of fit in here. You need to sort of have a kind of a sort of confident front. And I think she was naturally quite shy, but she sort of she was smart, and she kind of approached it in a way that meant she wouldn't take forever to fit in. When you sort of finally fit in, then you've got to go to a new school. She realized that didn't work at all. So all of these things were obviously really character building, but when they moved to California and ended up going to the Menlo Atherton High School, I think it was and, yeah, Lindsay Buckingham was a year below her, but they met at a kind of after school church evening. But it wasn't kind of churchy, it wasn't religious. It was just a kind of place for kids to hang out. For kids to hang out, play musical instruments, sing together, just just have some something to do on an otherwise kind of dead Wednesday evening. And so Stevie walked in one evening and, and she saw this, you know, this stunning young man with the curly hair and these fabulous blue eyes. And he was, he was playing California, dreaming by the, you know, the Mamas and the Papas. And she thought, you know, she was quite, quite taken with this young chap. So she, she thought, I'm going to join in with the Michelle Phillips harmonies here and and blow him away. Which, you know, he was obviously impressed. And so this kind of connection was formed through song, which is very appropriate. But it was about a year later that they started to kind of work together musically, because Lindsay Buckingham had a band, a sort of school band that soon became something else, school band called Fritz, and they needed a new sort of female vocalist as their their first singer, sort of moved on to college, Judy Jody mooring, sorry, she'd gone to college. And so they started auditioning singers, and they couldn't really find the right fit, and, and so Lindsay said, Well, you know, I remember this, this girl who sang with me at this you know, you know she, she was great. So they looked her up, found her, and she was a great fit. And obviously, in terms of her personality, she was so used to performing, you know, and she would been songwriting and honing her craft in her own time. And I think that's another really important thing to mention too, is that, you know, when other kind of girls, you know, teenagers were out kind of partying, and she lived quite a sheltered life. She was happy to stay in her room and dream, you know, dance and and write songs and develop her, her guitar playing, her singing. That was she was absolutely committed to it, which, which is a really important thing, I think about, about her story. So that was how they first came together musically. And so she joined Fritz, and as they developed, they became, as I say, much more than a school band. Zoe 8:31 They started to support a lot of the really big hitters, you know, on the San Francisco scene, and sort of Janis Joplin, obviously being a big one, and Jeff's an airplane and and just that was all part of their musical education as well. You know, watching those bands from the sidelines hugely formative. I think to Dave Anthony 8:51 them all, it's really interesting that they actually had that kind of exposure. They were opening for those big acts. They are ultimately told by a producer, hey, look, you two are the talented ones, but it's just the two of you, Buckingham Knicks, and that's their first release, which features a couple different tracks. Was there a track on there that you sort of pick out and go, Hmm, that's a hint of what's to Zoe 9:17 come. Because I think is it, is it Keith Olsen that you're referring to? Is I need to kind of give props to him, because he was what he gave me a wonderful interview for this book. He's no longer with us now, but his stories and his memories were so honest and so generous and lovely and self deprecating, and I felt really kind of made pretty much the first half of the whole book because he worked with them so closely, and also Fleetwood Mac as well, and and I think Keith Olsen just, you know, when I was reading the audio book as well, I was like, God bless you, Keith Olsen. He's just, His stories were just wonderful. So he, he is a guy. Actually, he is the guy. He said, I feel terrible about this. I can't even bear talking about. At it again. But I had to say, you know, this is, this is a go up with the two of you. You're probably going to want to move on from these guys. But of course, it was the right, you know, the right decision. And as you said, that's kind of that is reality, isn't it, you know, in the in the music business. But I think it sounds like you handled it very sensitively. So bless you, Keith Olsen, but in answer to your question, obviously, crystal is on there, and you know that that's that song had a life far beyond that. That would be the one, I suppose that was, that would stand out to me. And that is, of course, a Knicks song, you know, a Stevie Nicks composition through Zoe 10:48 move, yeah, for me, that's that's a really important Dave Anthony 10:51 song, Stevie and Lindsay, ultimately, through Keith Olsen, the serendipitous Mick Fleetwood looking For a studio, stumbles into sound city, which is a studio in LA or in the in the in the suburbs, and Fleetwood Mac is at a low point in this, this kind of part of the the gig. They've lost a few personnel. And what was it about the two of them that Mick Fleetwood was so ignited when he met them, and I guess it was through Keith Olsen. Zoe 11:28 It was completely through Keith Olsen. I mean, Keith is such an important part of the story. And you know, he basically, yes, Mick was kind of shopping for a studio, but he was also, they just lost their guitarist, Mick Fleetwood was was looking for a studio to record. They had just lost Bob Welch, the guitarist. He just left the band. And so, you know, they were gearing up to record a new album. He'd just gone, they, they'd set everything up. And he was like, right, okay, I need to, sort of, you know, it's, we can't sort of pull out of this, we need a new guitarist. So when he went to sound city, and he was obviously checking it out as a studio to kind of just show Mick the sound of the studio, Keith Olsen put in a cassette of Buckingham knicks and just just so Mick could kind of hear the sound as I was incredibly taken by the sound of the guitar player, you know, obviously Lindsay Buckingham. And I said, Gosh, you know, do you think that Lindsay Buckingham would want to join our band, Fleetwood Mac and Keith said, Well, look, to be fair, they are a duo. They come as a pair. So, you know, you take one, you got the other. You can't split them up. Which I thought was very cool of him to say that, and and so Mick Fleetwood kind of was like, Okay, well, if that's the deal, he was kind of open to that, as were the rest of Fleetwood Mac. And they've always had a very kind of fluid thing going on Fleetwood Mac. There's always been coming and going. It's always been evolving as a band. But I think from Stevie nicks' point of view, although that was a wonderful thing, her concern was that, you know, a Am I some kind of, also around here, they obviously mainly want Lindsay. But also, can we bring something to Fleetwood Mac? We need to be more than just kind of, you know, filling a gap. And, you know, in terms of the guitarist point of view, we need to be more. We need to kind of enhance Fleetwood Mac bring something new to it. And so she took it really seriously, and she had a lot of humility about the situation. And she was, she felt very strongly that, you know, I'm kind of sort of on the sideline here, but they completely embraced her. And, you know, I love the story about how, when they first all get together and meet at a sort of Mexican restaurant, and and Stevie has been waitressing at, I think it's called clementines, this restaurant in LA which is kind of 20s themed. And so all the waitresses dressed as flappers. And so she hasn't had time to kind of get changed, so she turns up to this meeting dressed as a flapper. And everyone's there, and everyone's there, I think they're very charmed by her, of course, you know, and she just said, we all just fell in love with each other, and just, they just had a wonderful sort of bonded really quickly. And I think it's also really lovely as well, because Mick Fleetwood talked about, in his book Fleetwood, that they were concerned that, you know, would Christine accept another woman in the band? And she was just like, you know, don't be ridiculous, as long as we get on and, you know, that's all that matters. She wasn't a kind of alpha female kind of vibe. There wasn't that going on. She was a professional. And I think both of them were very, you know, their friendship within Fleetwood Mac, I think is the strongest relationship to come out of Fleetwood Mac. Lots of relationships going on there, but Christine and Stevie really was the one that that endured. I think they took a lot of strengths from each other, and Stevie just adored Christine from from straight away. Dave Anthony 14:55 Yeah, because that's one of the more drama filled bands in the history of rock. And you're right, those two are kind of. The solid pillars that that trusted and helped each other Zoe 15:04 100% Yeah, the Dave Anthony 15:08 what's interesting is when they join Fleetwood Mac. The next album, of course, is called Fleetwood Mac, and two of Stevie's compositions stick out as kind of hits Rhiannon Dave Anthony 15:30 landslide, and I saw my reflection in snow covered hills. Snow. Dave Anthony 15:47 So the young woman who they weren't sure whether they should put her in the band is suddenly making a huge impact on the songwriting front. But what I wanted to talk about is, when they start touring, she's this magnetic presence all of a sudden in front of this old blues band that used to be a blues band and kind of turned to a rock band. And what? What was it that she had such an electric personality that people were suddenly attracted to this, this band that really had been around for a while? Zoe 16:19 Absolutely, it's such an interesting situation, isn't it? And so unusual. I think Stevie was this kind of, you know, in the forward of the new edition, we have the wonderful Vivian Goldman wrote a fabulous forward and, and she, she put it really well. She said she was a multi level threat, and which is so true. And I think, you know, this didn't just happen by accident. All of these things, as I say, they've been growing from such a young age, obviously, that, you know, singing with her grandfather, and that kind of learning about song craft, but also the way she moved is really important as well, and that is part of this. It looks so effortless, but, you know, she'd, you know, done ballet training. She loved ballet. She's kept that going through the years. Always does sort of ballet exercises before a gig, and that gave her a kind of easy grace, you know. So the way she moves on stage is very effortless and very kind of hypnotic. But it's all come from hard work. You know. All of these things come from hard work, and the development comes through that. But of course, he is a naturally charismatic person, and the way she performs those songs, I suppose particularly we think of Rhiannon, those kind of incendiary performances of Rhiannon, there does seem to be kind of an element of of channeling. There is channeling, this kind of spirit of Rhiannon that that takes over and and it's almost like she's kind of outside of herself at that moment. Zoe 18:00 And that is hugely compelling, I think, for an audience because, you know, we are witnessing something so real in front of us. This isn't a put on. This is just, you know, the self consciousness of has completely gone. And to witness that as an audience member is incredibly powerful. Dave Anthony 18:17 And there were so few front women in rock at the time Janis Joplin would have been years before young, young, beautiful woman fronting the this band. I mean, must have given female fans a new sort of icon to sort of Revere, definitely. Zoe 18:35 I mean, I think, you know, Janis Joplin hugely important to Stevie. I mean, she really did adore Janis Joplin. Watched her in the wings, as I said, you know, in those sort of San Francisco festivals when Fritz were supporting and really kind of taking notes on how she did things. Zoe 19:00 But also Grace Slick as well. That was Grace. Slick was a huge influence. Zoe 19:15 Again, her sort of slinkiness on stage as well. All of these things were ingredients that went into this kind of creative cauldron into which that sort of Stevie could put her own elements as well, and out came this kind of amazing persona, but it was very much from the heart as well. But I think you're right, you know that it will have been, and continues to be, hugely inspiring to people, because she's just not like anybody else. Yes, she had all these influences. But what you're really seeing there is, is someone who isn't like anybody else. And that's very inspiring on a number of levels, because it it shows the you that you don't have to be like anyone else. You know, you don't have to copy anyone else. Who are you? You know, let's, let's bring what's authentic to you forward. And she's continued to be an inspiration on that kind of very creative level as well, where. Which is something I always find very inspiring about Stevie Nicks. She's continued to be creative, and she's grown all these years, and now, you know, she's, she's got, she's used, you know, we've seen her as a kind of activist as well, writing protest songs. And, you know, so she just continues being fresh and that, I think, that just inspires generation after generation of not just women, actually, just of anyone who kind of connects with that. I think Dave Anthony 20:25 you you just talked about, you know, Stevie's charisma, her voice and energy mesmerizes audiences. And you write in the book, and it's an interesting passage. I'm going to read it to you, and then I would like your reaction. You write, yes, Fleetwood Mac's new front woman was a natural, and this would be yet another reason for the growing agitation between herself and Lindsay Buckingham. He was not happy that his girlfriend, whose simple but beautiful songs he had transformed into hits, had been singled out as the star. Wow. I know their relationship starts to deteriorate as they're heading towards rumors and touring and all their ass. That is just such a powerful indictment of kind of Lindsay's. Well, I'll let you explain. Zoe 21:16 Well, yeah, I mean, there's a huge respect for Lindsay Buckingham. He was, he's, he's a genius, you know, he's incredible and works incredibly hard. And I think, you know, he the way he seems to have seen it, just, just from sort of the research that I'd done and what I've read and what he said in interviews. You know, she would bring a simple song to him, simple, but beautiful, and obviously very, you know, crafted. But he would then kind of produce it and bring it and, you know, arrange it and bring it up to a level where, you know, it could become a hit. I suppose that's the way he was looking at it. So a lot of work was going into that, a lot of energy. And when they weren't always getting on, that was hard, but he did it. And so I suppose, to sort of, he probably found it galling that she it was so seemingly easy and effortless for her to just go on stage and capture everybody's hearts, but she's a completely different kind of person to Lindsay Buckingham, and, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I suppose, just in terms of how audiences connected and engaged with her, you know, you can't really compare, but it doesn't, it's just, it's just a different thing. But I think there was, there, was, there evidently was some resentment, and certainly the amount of attention she's talked about this in interviews herself. He was uncomfortable with the level of, you know, attention that she attracted on stage, and he started to kind of ridicule her, and sort of, you know, ridicule the way she dressed or the way she moved. Obviously jealous. And that's what people do when they're jealous. But, you know, hurt her very deeply, because that was just how she expressed herself on stage. And people loved it. And I think it just stuck in his craw. And I suppose also the fact that he, you know, even after they had split up, because they had this very fiery relationship, as we all know, there was still a great kind of love bond there. And and they never really got a chance to have closure. So normally, when we split up with somebody, we don't have to then see them every night and sing with them every night. It's very difficult to kind of heal from a breakup, so to then sort of have to see them, sing with them, see them getting all this love, obviously be, you know, it wasn't something that Stevie aimed to be. Was a sex symbol, but that is how she was seen by many. And you know, there's lots of reasons why you can completely understand why that would make a partner or ex partner feel uncomfortable. Dave Anthony 23:32 Yeah, they're so they're starting to split up here as we're moving towards rumors, which, you know, ultimately, I think we all know the tunes on rumors if you're a Stevie Nicks fan, but in particular, her song dreams goes to number one, Dave Anthony 23:59 which furthers Probably Lindsay thinking, well, I wrote a couple tunes too, and actually I produced dreams, so you can see how he would feel. But that that album still in the top 10, I think, of all time best selling albums. It's an incredible album. He they are on the rocks. So is mcphees. The mcvees John and Christine Mick is going through a divorce, and out of this turbulence comes this album. And you hint at sort of the craziness and chaos of the making of that when you look back on it now, re looking at the book. How did such an album come out of such chaos? Do you think what was, what was the secret there? Zoe 24:42 Well, I think, you know, what an incredibly special bunch of individuals. Because I think most people, if they were going through that and they were taking copious amounts of drugs, probably, you know, any songs that you might try and write through that might not be so great. I didn't. These guys were extraordinary, very skilled, and so, you know what they were able to do? Do with their pain was to channel it into song, into creativity, and work together on that, which is an extraordinary thing in itself as well. So, yeah, yeah, they took that pain and kind of transcended it. In fact, there's a bit in the book, I think that Mick Fleetwood does talk about these transcendence that is mainly because they're just exhausted as well, you know, they're very strung out. They're kind of, you know, not really looking after themselves terribly well. And, you know, get to a certain point in the middle of the night, and he'd be like, we have to transcend, you know, have to keep push through and and he'd say this kind of line, I always think of it the Robert Frost poem, The woods are lovely, dark and deep, but we have promises to keep and miles to go before we sleep, which is so perfect. And I say that to myself as well when I'm writing, I'm like, I'm too tired. I was like, No, the woods are dark, you know, woods are lovely, dark and deep, but, you know, but it's such a and it kind of, everyone would just push through and keep going. So I think, yeah, they were so committed to what they were doing. And I think that is why, you know, we, we would see situations like this in other bands. You think, Well, of course, you know, God, if you've split up, somebody has to leave. But in Fleetwood Mac, nobody was leaving. Everybody was sticking with Fleetwood Mac. That was the ultimate marriage, yeah. And it was like, we have to respect that. So they were so committed to what they were doing that they had to transcend, you know, any interpersonal issues. But, my God, it must have been incredibly painful, but it did lead to these unforgettable songs and amazing musical moments on that album that, as you say, you know, it's immortal. You know, people will never stop listening to rumors. It's got such power. Dave Anthony 26:40 And to your point, Zoe, one of the songs that Stevie is kind of, I think, was in her journals and she brought forward for the band. It's the only song that's ever been credited to all of them, was the chain, which speaks exactly to that, yes, the chain will never break, even though the chaos you outlined, the cocaine, the marriage breakdowns, the partnership breakdowns, the chain was a pretty special song that sort of reinforced that Zoe 27:06 absolutely, what a special song. And it was a kind of composite song as well. You know, there were different sort of pieces of other songs that kind of hadn't been quite developed, that sort of came together as this kind of collage, if you like, that then created this, this amazing, amazing song that's just not like anything else. And I think it's still when you listen to it now, it still gives you shivers, doesn't it? The Zoe 27:41 chain you can feel this sort of visceral sense of what we can only imagine they're all going through and feeling at that time. And I think it was really interesting. I think they opened the show with that when they did that incredible concert in 1997 that was just called the dance. It was like an MTV special, and they opened it with the chain. And it just felt so appropriate, you know, because, you know, here we still are, sort of 20 years later, I managed to work that out, but, yeah, but it's just, yeah, it's, it just encapsulates. It is Fleetwood. It's just in a nutshell. Dave Anthony 28:13 So here's where the tension starts to build. And I'm going to sort of pause it. What that tension could be. Maybe you can comment the there's a song on there that never got included. Stevie was not happy Silver Springs. It's an incredible song, and for some reason, was left off. Dave Anthony 28:49 Back. The next album is Tusk Lindsay Buckingham being the talented ear to the ground trend. Listener says we got to get more modern. We've got new wave. We've got all these other sounds coming in in the late 70s into the 80s, and Lindsay says we got to just get more modern with our sound. And Tusk comes out, which causes a ton of tension, from the naming of the album through to Lindsay taking full control. And the only real hit that emerges from that that the audience really loves is really Sarah, which is another Stevie song. Dave Anthony 29:39 Well, I guess what I'm pointing to here is we're on our way now to Stevie saying, if you're not going to include all my songs, and I have so many, she is so prolific, I'm going to start thinking about a solo career. And it's suggested to her, and she takes the step to do it, which is that does that. Categorize some of the tension that she probably was feeling that she had to get to the, you know, get her, get her voice out there. I Zoe 30:07 think so, yes. And I think, you know, it's very unusual to have a band where you have three really strong songwriters, and so all of them must have felt very kind of limited and sort of restricted as to what they could include, because that you could only have so many tracks on an album. And I suppose Tusk was unusual, because it, you know, they were like, it's a double album. And I think there was, there was friction over that as well, that decision, because it, you know, Stevie was saying, well, double albums are expensive, you know, are people going to be able to afford to buy a double album? And so there was all these, yeah, as you say, on loads of levels, loads of tension about the decisions made around the making of tusk. But it did mean that, obviously they could include more songs. But she was unusually prolific. Had so many songs, sort of banking up that. And all of her songs, she sort of describes them like her children. You know, she adores them all, and you know, it's, you know, to have them rejected, as she felt that obviously Silver Springs was, was very painful, because all of those songs also come from really deep places as well. They're not just sort of throwaway pop songs. Yes, many of them became hits, but they come from very real places of deep feeling, meaning. Well, Zoe 31:41 will so you can understand why that would be very painful, and it made sense, I suppose, to pursue a solo career alongside the Mac. There were certainly outside forces as well that were, as you say, suggesting that as well. And I suppose you know, there were many times when I think she felt unappreciated in the studio by Fleetwood Mac, and she often felt like the kind of the little sister who kind of got in the way. And, you know, I think that was very hurtful as well, especially given everything she brought to the table, to say the least. So, yeah, I think you know, in her position, that that, you know, you would, you would, you'd be like, Do you know what? I'm going to do my own thing here, and I will respect the Mac but I've got all this material and all these things I want to do my way. And so that is what she went on to do. Dave Anthony 32:28 Yeah, you you cleverly outline in the book how, because she was not a musician, she had to sit around the studio for hours waiting for them to work out songs. She felt like she wasn't part of the group at some levels. And they would sort of Pat her on the head and say, you know, wait your turn sort of thing. Zoe 32:42 Yeah, I think so. I think so. I do want to just add a point about something you said earlier about her not being a musician, because she was, of course, a musician. She did. She did place play guitar, she did. She could play some piano. The issue was, I suppose, that she was not as developed as Lindsay on guitar or Christine on keyboard. And something that really gets to me about that, and I think, you know, I say in the early part of the book, is that when you kind of pick up these moments of irritation, you know, from Lindsay about, you know, she only knows about three chords, and you know, obviously what she does with them is amazing. But, you know, we cast our minds back to when they were starving artists, you know, in San Francisco, and you know, she went out and made sure they had a roof over their heads, by waitressing, by cleaning houses, by doing whatever it was that it took to do those things so that Lindsay could stay at home and practice guitar, and so that I always think of that whenever I hear sort of anyone say anything like that, because I'm like, Well, yeah, because she made that choice, and she did it with grace, but it sort of seems kind of rather unfair when, you know, you hear Lindsay Buckingham saying things like, well, you know, she she wasn't really a musician, and I had to do this, And that's like, well, had the roles been reversed, her musicianship would have been much more developed, but she made that choice. So I think it's really important to kind of note that, and I think it's a story that comes up a lot in rock and roll. I think women are often, I hate to generalize, but often sort of more inclined to sort of sacrifice, to just sort of keep the wheels going around. And I certainly remember Patti Smith talking about that in her book, just kids about her life with Robert Mapplethorpe. You know, he would be at home painting, and she would be out just doing what it took to bring the money in, because somebody had to, had to eat. And so I always think I know, what about her art? What about her, you know, the time that she could be spending on that. You know, sometimes women just don't have that choice. Yeah, and they give it up with grace. But, you know, we are conditioned to sort of make sure everyone else is okay before, sort of like thinking, Well, I'm going to take my art seriously and give it all the time it needs. And I think it's taken a long time for women to kind of to look at that. A bit more in the main that's, Dave Anthony 35:02 I think that's a brilliant point you bring up. It's challenging. You know, she, she did go and do all those menial jobs cleaning houses. Keith Olson hired her as a cleaning lady to help them out. You know, Lindsay's at home, smoking pot, playing guitar. She comes home founds, finds the house a complete party mess. Has to clean that up, make sure that food's on the table like you can just get a sense of what this woman sacrificed so that he could be develop his own skills. And then to think that it wasn't returned, and it was returned as jealousy. Yes, he helped her own songs must have just amped up the tension in that relationship over time to think of those sacrifices? Zoe 35:41 Yeah, definitely. And I really don't want to be a downer on Lindsay Bookham. I think he is amazing. And I think also we need to remember these people were so young when these things were happening. And, you know, if we look back to when we were in our sort of late teens, early 20s, and all the rest of it, the things we did and said, we probably would never say this or do those things now, but I think when you are a young, you know, young guy, and sort of, of course, you know, there's, there's loads of egos in rock and roll. We all know that. So I sort of always am kind of keen to sort of say, this is, this is a story from a time and place and a certain age, I guess, you know. And people grow up, and they probably look back and think, oh, gosh, you know, Dave Anthony 36:20 so Belladonna becomes her album that came out in 1981, Yeah, 81 and and it had edge of 17. You. On. Dave Anthony 36:53 It had stopped dragging my heart around with Tom Petty, the brilliant song that he contributed for her noggin. Dave Anthony 37:21 Her and we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about Jimmy Iovine. He was the producer on that, and she ultimately has a relationship with him that's more than just business, but that he is instrumental in kind of getting petty to contribute that song. Basically, that album goes to number one. I find it an interesting dichotomy that here she is writing with Tom Petty, who respects her and gives her a song Don Henley, leather and lace. Edge of 17, she gets done. And you know, with Lindsay, she's kind of in this relationship where she has to walk her songs to him. But then when she's unleashed on her own, these things are flowing, and life is seems to be a little easier for her, and yet that album went to number one. Well, I'll let you comment on that. I'll let you comment on sort of her partnering with others and sort of being outside the group. Zoe 38:14 Yeah, yeah. Because I think also that was must have been a huge confidence boost for her, because, as you say, you know, being in this different situation and getting respect from people that you really admire, which was a huge heartbreakers fan, she Zoe 38:40 had such respect for them. Always has done, and for them to be like, this is, this is something, yeah, I want to work on this. I think, I think, gave her a boost and another perspective. And it's really interesting. There was a great interview I read Benmont Tench from the Heartbreakers, who was musical director. And at first he he needed some convincing. He was like, well, there's this big star, you know, this is big kind of AOR band. And he was not, you know, he took some convincing. And it was when he kind of met her and listened to her songs and stuff. And it was like, Yeah, of course, this isn't, this is incredible. He was completely taken. And so I think that speaks for itself, and must have given Stevie a huge boost in confidence. And you know, when she really needed it to sort of develop that side of her again, not just feel like the the baby sister in the band, the Dave Anthony 39:34 she has to race back to meet Lee would Mac again for another album, Mirage. I mean, she's going back and forth the pace that this woman is going through Stevie in the early 80s trying to keep Fleetwood Mac saying, Look, I'm always devoted to you. She's got this solo career that, of course, is demanding her as well. Like the pace at which this woman works sort of flows into some other issues that I wanted. To talk about, and that is, you document some significant drug use by Stevie in this, in this book, cocaine, it seems that she was using it, not just to, you know, and give her a bump to go on stage, but it was almost becoming a daily habit to literally get out of bed or to, you know, it's part of a daily routine. How bad did it get? Like, it sounds like it was really bad. Zoe 40:25 It did get bad. It got incredibly bad. And I think, you know, fair play to Stevie. She's always been very open about her drug use, and, you know, very honest about that. It was absolutely kind of, you know, no excuses at all. And she's, you know, it did get really Dave Anthony 40:40 bad, and in the meantime, these albums are keep coming out. I don't know how she kept it on the rails, but the wild heart had stand back. I Zoe 41:08 stand back. It's such a fabulous song, because it's, that's the one that Prince collaborated on, isn't it? Stand Dave Anthony 41:16 back, right? Because it was Little Red Corvette. She had loved that song, and I think that she wanted to sort of emulate that sound, yes, yeah, that synth sound. Zoe 41:37 So she not only brought that in, but actually brought Prince in to do it as well. So just it's such a kind of moment that song, I think. Dave Anthony 41:44 And then 85 she follows with the album rock a little which has talked to me as one of sort of the memorable tracks Joe. Dave Anthony 42:08 The thing I wanted to get to following up on the drug issue is, in 86 she checks into the Betty Ford to sort of clean up and say, Look, this has gone far enough to the point where it sounds like she had a hole in her nasal cavity. That's how much cocaine she was doing. And it became quite a problem. She checks into the Betty Ford. And I thought it was very poignant that you pointed out that in the Betty Ford, while she was trying to clean up, she was given an exercise to write. And here's the question she was given as the exercise that you wrote about, what is the difference between a rock star and a human? And she had difficulty in answering that, Zoe 42:50 yeah, it is very, very poignant, isn't it? And I suppose it's not surprising. You know, the lines between that kind of rock star life, which obviously is in large part, theater and real life gets, gets very blurred at the best of times, I think, especially if you just like living that kind of lifestyle. But certainly when you bring drugs into it, yeah, I think she's just, she's just been so honest about that, that part of her journey, that's also where the song Welcome to the room, Sarah comes from as well that we hear on tango in the night have come, you know, shortly after that period. And I just want to kind of also mention that that kind of talismanic quality to the name Sarah for Stevie Nicks obviously had that kind of incredible song that was on tusk. But, you know, it keeps coming back, and she actually the reason it's called, welcome to the room Sarah is it's a direct reference to her time at the Betty Ford Clinic. Zoe 43:56 Can she use the name Sarah, I suppose, as a kind of, you know, a kind of a mask, a sort of, you know, bit of anonymity. And so that's them saying, Welcome to the room, sort of, you can imagine the kind of circle and the discussions and the therapy circles. And that is quite a kind of, you know, when you know that those references, it's, it's a very moving song, you know, it contains a lot of, kind of those thoughts. And the way she writes songs, as well as really interesting. She writes down kind of vignettes and thoughts, and they kind of, you know, all, all make, make it onto their, sort of her pads. She has these big pads where she kind of writes these things, these thoughts and and then kind of collages them together. And so you have these kind of snippets. And sometimes it can feel quite cryptic and like a poem and, and that sounds, I think, is really special Dave Anthony 44:41 one, yeah, it sounds like a journal that she keeps that has little poems, vignettes. Zoe 44:47 So, yeah, it got it got very bad. I think it was bad for everyone involved, and it was just part of the culture. I think this is something else that really kind of is close to my heart. I suppose, mental health and drug use. In the music industry, I think we're still, we've still got a long way to go. But I think in any other industry, if you saw somebody with that kind of problem, with that kind of issue, you would make sure they got some help, or you would take them aside and be like, I think you need some support. Here. Something's going on in the music industry, certainly then, you know, and rock and roll, it's like guys all part of the kind of, the kind of crazy deal. You know, that's just the way it is. And it's almost like a, kind of like a joke. And certainly, a lot of the books that I've written that have involved substance abuse, alcohol abuse as part of the story, that has been a pattern. And certainly with, you know, with people I've known and have been close to, and it's excruciating to witness how enabled it is. It's not, it's practically encouraged, because it's just all part of the kind of the myth and the legend, and it's what everybody wants to see. But you know, when that person goes home, they go home, it's not an act. You know, this is part of their life. It's so damaging, yeah, so I think, you know, it's heartbreaking, really, the that story, that part of you know Stevie's story, but it's also really kind of edifying and inspiring, how she comes through it and how she puts that behind him. Dave Anthony 46:13 Yeah, and I do want to get to that. After walking out of the Betty Ford Clinic in 1986 Stevie Nicks was finally free from cocaine, but sobriety, as it turned out, came with its own shadows. In her biography of Stevie, Zoe recounts that Stevie was advised to see a psychiatrist to help her stay on the straight path. The doctor explained that many recovering addicts struggle with anxiety, depression and sleeplessness. His solution a prescription for Klonopin, a powerful anti anxiety medication meant to keep her calm, balanced and safe, but that safety was an illusion. According to Stevie, the man in the white coat was no healer. He was a fan, a groupie in disguise, more interested in hearing tales of rock and roll excess than helping her heal. Over time, he kept increasing her dose and Stevie trusting the system, trusting Him, followed his lead, the result was devastating. She said in interviews that Klonopin stole something far more precious than her youth. It took her fire for eight long years, Stevie became a shell of herself, listless, uninspired, lost in a chemical fog. She says she wasn't writing, she wasn't performing the way she once could, and that chapter, she claims was worse than her cocaine addiction, much worse. By 1993 she knew she had to reclaim her life once more, and this time, it would take 47 brutal days in a detox center to break free from Klonopin. Script, of Zoe 47:41 course, she gets some prescribed Klonopin by a doctor, and that's even worse for her, in every way, makes her very ill. It completely deadens her creativity. And so she's been through a dreadful journey with drugs. And you know, as I say, is really open about that, in a way, that's, you know, I think she sees herself as rightly as as a figure that people look to, and if she's open and honest about these things, that maybe they won't fall into those sort of pitfalls, which, which, I think is kind of an amazing, amazing thing to do. Dave Anthony 48:15 You talked about the men who come into her life and sort of collaborate with her. Are just attracted to this woman. And, you know, from sort of, I guess, Don Henley of the Eagles, when she has a relationship, sort of, during the rumors time period, she's got a relationship with Mick Fleetwood, a romantic relationship with Mick Fleetwood and Lindsay Buckingham. She Jimmy iving, a producer. She has a romantic relationship. Rupert Hine, another producer. He's mesmerized by her. Dave Stewart, the arrhythmics becomes a producer of hers. They have a romantic relationship. Men cannot resist this woman. Zoe 48:55 No, no. And I think you know, as I say, she she creates a kind of, she has this romantic aura. But I think, as Rupert Hines said in the book, you know, she has this this very genuine openness. Obviously, she's beautiful and very gorgeous, but she has this beautiful, open personality, which is hard to resist. And I suppose when you are thrown into those sorts of situations where you're working very closely, you know, on somebody's very personal songs, and it means so much. I don't think it's difficult to sort of see how that could unfold. And I think also, you know, there were lots of, you know, certainly in the past, lots of drugs involved, which can sometimes just blur those, you know, it just blurs the boundaries, I think, and it makes those sorts of scenarios a little bit easier to come about, I think, than if everybody's, you know, clean and sober and getting on with it. But I still think, you know, beyond that, drugs or no drugs, Stevie is the ultimate rock and roll, romantic and and that is hard to resist. Dave Anthony 49:50 She's, she's the queen. And Stevie was pregnant at one time, I believe, and she was it Don Henley was the father. Is that what you wrote? What is that Zoe 50:01 I that's the story I've I've heard. You know, I'm not, I'm just the sort of as I say, that the messenger, but that's what I gathered, I think, from what she's shared in interviews previously, Dave Anthony 50:15 long before the world knew her name, the teenage Stevie Nicks befriended fellow teenager, Robin Snyder, both girls were just 15, two teenagers dreaming big in California, bonded by music and friendship, Robin didn't just encourage Stevie. She helped shape her. It was Robin who taught Stevie how to truly use her voice, how to tap into something deeper, what she's saying. They were inseparable. So when Robin was diagnosed with leukemia in 1981 Stevie's world began to unravel. For a moment. There was hope. Robin went into remission, and joy returned with the news that she and her husband were expecting a child, but that light was short lived. The leukemia came back, aggressive, unstoppable, and Robin was forced to deliver her baby, a little boy named Matthew, at just six months. Robin held on for 10 more days and then passed away, leaving a newborn son and husband. Stevie was shattered. Losing Robin felt like losing part of herself, and in the middle of that grief, something unexpected happened, Stevie made a decision her and Robin's husband should get married and raise Matthew together. It wasn't romantic. It was an act of love, of loyalty, of desperation, to hold on to what was left of Robin. And Stevie's friends and family begged her not to go through with it. They saw the pain clouding her judgment, and Stevie's judgment was likely further clouded by her cocaine addiction. She was determined to honor Robin's memory and protect the baby. They both loved, and they both went ahead with the wedding. Three months later, reality caught up with them. They realized the marriage was unsustainable. They quietly divorced, realizing their union was a mistake. One bored of heartbreak, not love, and it was one of the most painful, confusing chapters of Stevie's life, and came at a time when her Bella Dawn album was going up the charts. She says when she remembers that period, she can only think of how sad she was about Robin's death, rather than the success of the record. Zoe 52:13 Robin's husband, obviously, was was was in a terrible state, and it just came to the point where it just couldn't continue. But, yeah, I mean, I think it just just the fact that she, she was obviously in that state herself, you know, not, not, not at her best, I guess, mentally, certainly in terms of substance abuse, but really wanting to do the right thing. By Robin, what do you Dave Anthony 52:37 think the secret to her longevity with her fans, like, what is it about her? And you outline in your book? So interestingly, you said, as Zoe puts in her book, Stevie Nicks is high priestess, rock goddess, dreamer, sorcerer, Queen and always a foot in both worlds and a very wise woman. And I'll just say to you, given what you've said about her personality traits there, what else would you add to that, that sort of fans kind of go, I just need more of this woman, yeah, who doesn't need Zoe 53:13 more of Stevie Nicks? I mean, it's been interesting because I sort of thinking about this when I was kind of updating the book, which is a wonderful opportunity. You know, I was really glad to be able to get my hands to get my hands on the book again and update it, because she just keeps going. You know, she keeps she's doing such interesting things all the time. And that's part of, I think, why people you know still find her so inspiring. But I think also it's more than that. And I think also it makes me chuckle, but there is a reason why there are Stevie Nicks, st Stevie prayer candles on the market and joking aside, it is, you know, it is easy why to see, why people see her as an icon and look to her for lots of reasons. Because, for me, in a nutshell, Stevie Nicks has had this lifelong commitment to creativity, to self empowerment, to always moving forward and, you know, forging a more magical life. And I think that is really important. I think that's why we need her more than ever. You know, that was everything that's going on in the world, to have someone who symbolizes that and lives that so authentically, the living of a more beautiful, softer, kinder, more magical life that kind of gives us permission to at least try and do the same, and think about the kind of possibilities afforded to us by our imaginations, and how powerful that can be if we allow it. And I think you know, for me, Stevie is is radical. I know she I think she's described herself as a radical, but she is totally radical. Because I think you know, when life is showing us the opposite of magic and beauty and kindness, to still look for that and look to create it in a world you know which is as it is, as we know, you know, whatever our circumstances, that, to me, is a radical act of resistance and rebellion and so to that is the most. Wonderful way to react to that as well. And so Stevie continues to do that, you know, and she's writing her protest songs and she's responding, you know, it's not about escapism as well. I think that's an important thing to to note when talking about that, because that might mean, oh, just I'm going to live in a bubble and I'm not going to engage with the world. Stevie Nicks definitely engages with the world. She knows what's going on, and it's just hitting that balance between not letting it take you over, but thinking, What can I do to kind of make my corner of the world more beautiful, and then seeing if that has ripples that go out. And absolutely, with Stevie, they totally do, and we all feel it. Dave Anthony 55:36 Yeah, it's really interesting. The way you put that, the elegance of the woman and her ability to stay current on a number of issues, the lighthouse being that song that she wrote in response To Roe versus Wade decision in the United States. You Dave Anthony 56:00 let them take your power. And I also, I guess, would hint that many young artists are looking up to her and feeling that she is the inspiration and so important. Taylor Swift, Harry Styles, Miley Cyrus, what is it that young artists see in her in particular? Do you think, Zoe 56:18 Well, I think, you know, she's for all of those reasons, really, that is that is that continues to be inspiring to young artists. But I think also I'm glad you brought that up, because she it's very refreshing, I think, to see someone who engages with young artists the way she does. And it also makes me think of Elton John. He does that too. He's very supportive of artists that you know, younger artists, and taking an interest in what they do, and saying, What can we do together? And I think that that is the key to staying young as well, young and creative, you know? And that's what we see in styles like that. They don't just kind of pay no attention to what's going on, instead of wearing their kind of self obsessed little bubble. And that is a wonderful, wonderful thing. So yeah, Harry Styles, she's hugely fond of Harry Styles, very, very protective of him as well, I gather. But they've done some, some, some wonderful things together, and I just think it's great Dave Anthony 57:07 when she was nominated, or sort of elected, into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Harry Styles did stop dragging my heart around with her, that's right. Yeah, absolutely, in place of Tom Petty, who unfortunately had died by that point, that's That's right, yeah, Dave Anthony 57:37 yeah, she's really supported the young artist. And you mentioned Elton John. We have an Elton John episode where we talk about that exact thing. He has that same sort of philosophy. And it's really nice to see, Zoe 57:48 yeah, really generous. And just if we put you on the Dave Anthony 57:51 spot, Zoe, and we said, You've got to pick three songs, our audiences need to give a re listen to Zoe 57:57 three is just not enough, but, and it changes from day to day. So I'll just, I'll tell you today's three. Dave Anthony 58:06 This is Zoe house, three songs of the day, of the day. Zoe 58:10 Yeah. So gypsy is a huge favorite of mine for so many reasons. I love everything about it. I also love the way it evokes those memories of, you know, obviously it's particular to her, but it's very relatable, I think for all of us, those memories of when you're kind of, you know, you've just left home and you've not got much money, and you've created your little kind of sacred space, and you're kind of, you've got your little room the way you want it, and you've not got much but it's this magical time where things are just beginning. And gypsy really is that to me? Yeah, I've Zoe 58:59 got a bit of a Gypsy Soul too. So gypsy number one. I also love candle bright, and you don't always hear it being played as much as I mean, obviously there's so many Stevie hits, but candle bright, I think it's a very affecting song. But Unknown Speaker 59:21 you are not my Zoe 59:29 friend and sorcerer. I'm a big fan of sorcerer as well, and there was a wonderful, sort of relatively new version that she recorded with Cheryl, Cheryl Crow, who she's really good friends with, and they've done lots together, and it just sounds fantastic. Zoe 1:00:00 Game. So those would be my three of the day. But check in with me tomorrow, because it will be totally different. Dave Anthony 1:00:15 We should do that on our blog. We should have the updated weekly list of Zoe on Stevie. That'd be awesome. Today we've been talking to Zoe how she's the author of visions, dreams and rumors, a portrait of Stevie Nicks. The book has been so popular that it's been reissued and updated a little bit with and you've heard today some incredible sides of Stevie and the determination of her in her career and some of the challenges that she's overcome. And we wanted to thank you, Zoe for for really illuminating us on the portrait of Stevie. Thank you Zoe 1:00:51 very much for having me. It's been a real pleasure. It's always a pleasure to talk about Queen Stevie. Dave Anthony 1:00:55 Excellent. And the book will be released shortly in October of 2025 so thank you again for appearing today. Thank you so much. Some closing notes on Stevie. Nicks, Stevie is one of only three women who've been inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame twice the other two, Tina Turner and Carol King. Stevie is in as part of Fleetwood Mac and for her solo career. And interestingly, while Stevie looms large in the history of rock and roll, she's actually tiny in stature. She stands about five foot one. Stevie was born in Phoenix, Arizona in 1948 because her father worked with Greyhound bus company and was transferred with his job, Stevie and her family lived in seven different cities by the time she was in high school, but the last move proved to change her destiny, because it is where she met Lindsay Buckingham in high school. Stevie's full name is Stephanie Lynn Nicks. Stevie is a nickname that dates back to her early childhood when she had trouble pronouncing her name, she called herself TD. Her mom continued to call her TD as a nickname. It was eventually evolved to Stevie, and when it came time to release her first album with Buckingham Knicks, her first name was actually misspelled on the album cover as s, t, e, v, I, no, e appeared. We discussed Stevie's challenges with addictions, including a doctor who both misprescribed the anxiety disorder drug and continued upper dosage over time until she asked a friend to match her dose to study the effect, the friend couldn't physically function while on the dose Stevie took, and when her doctor snapped, are you trying to kill him? She fired back, then you've been trying to kill me, and that's when it hit her. She'd been overprescribed for years. Imagine Stevie Nicks as your teacher in school. She attended San Jose College, where she majored in speech communication and minored in psychology. Stevie would have pursued a career in teaching if she didn't succeed in the music business. Stevie wrote the song Rhiannon after reading a 1973 sci fi novel triad by Mary leader, she later learned the name belonged to a Welsh goddess in Celtic mythology, Stevie only later discovered the striking and powerful similarities between the song and Rhiannon of the Welsh stories. Stevie's written more songs about Rhiannon, and still dreams of turning them into a musical someday. Stevie named the song Silver Springs after seeing it on a road sign in a northern suburb of Washington, DC. It just sounded like a beautiful place, but the song's content was actually about her breakup with Lindsay Buckingham in their reunion for a 1997 performance, Stevie stared Lindsay down with a scorching performance singing quote, you'll never get away from the sound of the woman that loves you. I'll follow you down till the sound of my voice will haunt Dave Anthony 1:03:58 we've included that video at our website. Did you know that Stevie Nicks was going to be the original singer of blondie's 1979 number one hit? Call me Italian producer Giorgio Moroder, of the movie American Gigolo, approached Stevie to sing on a track, but she turned it down. Moroder then presented the song to Blondie singer Debbie Harry, who agreed to collaborate with him on the lyrics. We talked a little bit about Stevie's musical influences like Janis Joplin and Grace Slick stevia said that her songwriting was shaped by legends like Jackson, Browne, Joni Mitchell and Crosby Stills and Nash. They taught her how to turn poetry into song on stage. She drew inspiration from Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix, two performers that her own band opened up for in her early days with Lindsay Buckingham in the band called Fritz in 2001 Stevie told VH one. She borrowed her vocal style from Joni Mitchell, her power for maritha Franklin and her graceful presence for. Grace Slick aiming to be the, quote, beautiful woman in black in December 2020 Stevie received a very large check when she sold 80% of her publishing rights in a deal valued around $100 million thanks for making garage the stadiums one of the top 5% of podcasts in the world. We'd love for you to follow our shows on your favorite podcast platform so you can be alerted when our next episode drops. Follow us for some great music history content posted on our social channels, Instagram, X, Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube. Our YouTube channel has additional bonus coverage from our interviews. Visit us at garage to stadiums for more bonus content on all the bands featured and links to great downloadable playlists on Apple and Spotify special. Thanks to our guest today, Zoe how who has updated and re released her book visions, dreams and rumors, a portrait of Stevie Nicks. Thanks to our producers, Amina faubear and Connor Sampson, our program director Scott Campbell, Creative Director Chad Raymond and video director Nigel Campbell, you've been listening to garage to stadiums. I'm Dave Anthony. See you next time for another garage to stadiums. Story, Unknown Speaker 1:06:21 another blast furnace labs, production.