Latest / WIPTHENRIP / Episode 10 - Vincent Valdez

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Episode 10 - Vincent Valdez · WIPTHENRIP

• Vincent Version 2: We cannot go numb in these at moments like these. We have to be completely interactive and engage not only with each other, but within but with our own selves and remind ourselves why every day is worth getting up and and continuing to to push forward. Hi everyone, I'm Sydney. And I'm Ryan. And this is Whip then Rip. And if you're watching this on November third, twenty twenty six, that means today is election day in the US and you need to go vote. Yes. And if you're living in Texas, we need to go turn Texas blue. For our 10th guest, we have recent MacArthur Genius Grant recipient, Vincent Valdez. And if you'd like to support the podcast, like, share, subscribe to our channels, leave a rating and review, send an episode to a friend, leave a comment. We want your help. We need all of the above. You can't just change the country, you need to change. The future of the podcast as well. Yes. So stay tuned and see how our conversation goes. Check it out. Check it out. It's been crazy with the tech stuff, but yes, I'm so excited to talk to you. but yes, so our first category is grip. So what's frustrating, broken, or irritating in art and culture right now for you? Technology. For a hundred and one different reasons. Yeah, you know, I think a gripe would be for me Which seems on a daily occurrence is just how rapidly things seem to be moving by at lightning speed, everything from technology to political drama and chaos and and then just the I think the the speed of the clock, you know, I think it's every artist's ultimate challenge is to ra it's a race against that clock. There's never enough time in a single day to get a painting complete. So this is something that I'm having to or trying to cope with patiently, one day at a time. I mean The timing with the painting, that was something I was thinking this morning actually to ask you and I'm sure you've probably answered it a million times, but just the pace at which you make work. Like how long does one of your works typically take? Well, ask any gallerist of mine and they will all answer the same too long. You know, I as I've gotten older in life, I have become a lot slower, not because of well, probably partially because of, you know, physical regression and just mere age, but I think the love and the attention to craft for me has grown even stronger. But I think that the w the entire world around us, everything in our daily lives is is is so immediate. There's a a real immediacy to our existence. And I feel s you know, a great sense of pride in in yet finding another way of countering the mainstream. And so while the entire world is speeding ahead, I'm sitting in my dark little studio just slowly crafting away one stroke at a time with these works and there's nothing else like it I wouldn't trade it for anything in the end. I think about that a lot with just time. I feel like there's rebellion and all kinds of different ways in your work and it's something Sydney knows I've been working on a painting for more than a year now. And that's for a lot of different reasons. But the way that I don't know, there's something I tell myself related to what you just said, which is just like That's one of the biggest rebellions right now is to reclaim time and decide, it's not social media that's gonna tell me when this painting needs to be done or gallery show or whatever it is. I'm gonna just take the time that the painting needs. Well, it's reclaiming our time and it's reclaiming our attention spans that are, you know, almost non-existent, I think, at this point. And for me, the ultimate miniature revolutionary act on a daily basis is keeping in tune with what you love to do, with what ignites you, with what motivates you, what concerns you, what interests you, because there are so many, outside forces that want to take that away from you, from us as well. We cannot go numb in these at moments like these, we have to be completely interactive and engage not only with each other, but within but with our own selves and remind ourselves why every day is worth getting up and and continuing to to push forward. If I'm remembering correctly, the city you made in 2016, right? Correct. Okay, so that was during Trump's first presidency. And now we're in his second. Has that inspired stuff for you in the studio right now? My vision in the studio, my practice inside the studio is no different today than it was in 2016 and in 1999. A specific moment for me and a specific work like the city I began in 2015. Before Trump was even the name Trump was even And the Max. Right. And the city as a concept was my way of creating a 38-foot reflecting mirror and holding it up for the rest of the United States, saying, Let's look at ourselves, take a deep long look at ourselves in the mirror. Because I what I was finding in 2015 was that we were a society that was so eagerly, anxiously ready to pat ourselves on the back on the heels of an Obama presidency. And say, Congratulations, team. Been there, done that problem solved, ready to move forward. And was my way of saying, look in that mirror. I mean, because the the idea, the threat of the history of white supremacy in this country is still everywhere in every facet of American life that I find on a daily basis. In the studio today, not much has changed. If my subject is contemporary United States, it really is the gift it keeps on giving. There's no shortage of ideas. When I look at subjects that I tackled, because I was concerned, interested in them, curious about them, but I was concerned about these topics, even in you know, as far back as, you know, nineteen eighty-nine when I was ten, eleven years old, that curiosity, that awareness was already very present for me. And so that's you know, I I don't I doubt that that will that this will ever change, you know, all throughout the l course of my life and career. Do you think about Trump as being just a mask off version of what's always been present? I would respond to this question in the same way that I respond to speaking about a subject like my boxers, you know, my most revisited subject over the course of a lifetime, really. I was never interested in the idea of the boxer as athlete, you know, as entertainer. I was interested in the spectacle around the boxer, the metaphor for for what. the icon, the symbol of of a fighter represents. And so I'm not interested in a figure like Trump as a presidential icon or mascot. Trump is no different for me than Clinton or Obama or what I'm interested in is the larger, broader scope of the American power system, institutions of power, this legacy of power, imperialism as empire, because I think these are The powerful symbols and truth that are right in front of our very eyes, crystal clear for all of us to see. Yet we we are so easily distracted. We're it's so easy to pin us against each other. And we don't see oldest trick in the book, it's the oldest tale in the book. We should know better by now. History, if we knew, if we understood and recognized our history and the histories that Have existed long before an empire like the United States, we would know better. And so I think that the art throughout my past two decades of making works in the studio recognizes this broader, wider spectrum to connect these dots in regards to how the American system exists and functions and and relates to each one of us, whether we realize it or not. I was thinking too about social realism, you know. somebody like Diego Rivera or even like Soviet realism and that sort of propaganda. And I will sometimes talk about my own work, not even as what I have accomplished, but how part of my goal is to create a sort of counter propaganda. And it's making me want to ask you like how you feel about that idea. So to reveal, on the one hand, the th those Perhaps unspoken histories or maybe just histories that are spoken and then forgotten very quickly. But also I've heard you talk about not feeling like an activist, right? But as an artist, I'm curious, do you see the potential for the work to fight back? Speaking of boxers, can it get one on the chin of the American Empire? Yeah, that's a loaded question. I think that all in terms of social realism, I agree with, you know, I think for me, I choose to carefully examine observe, relate to, reflect on society. It's always been my main interest, in regards to why I incorporate the human figure and and focus on portraying the human figure. It's always been my intention to make work about people for people. I knew early on, I felt early on that I was very compelled by people, by the stories of people. I wanted to be a storyteller for people. was only taking and reflecting on the stories that I was experiencing from others around me, whether it was in the communities growing up, whether it was, you know, as a part of society. You mentioned honor propaganda. You know, I really love that. I I I really relate to, you know, I've always viewed my work as these I'm a maker of counter narratives, counter images, right? They they go against the grain in some way. You know, look, I don't I don't Fool myself into thinking that a single painting is gonna topple an empire or change the world economy. But, that is my hope. What my hope lies in the idea that art can still serve a purpose in mainstream society, in the everyday lives of ordinary people. And I think that whether it be through my history of an experience of being a young muralist as a child into my teen years. and then simply as an image maker, as a maker of images, I hope to be able to create works that can be shared with others, that other people can relate to. They see themselves reflected in. I think in this way, it's my intention as an artist, you know, to be of service to others in some tiny way. And I I do feel that I feel very strongly that art and artists can still play this role. Yeah, I think I wanna say it Mark Fisher had a line that I'm sure I'm not gonna remember quite right, but said something to the effect of can't stop empire, but at least we can give it a heartburn. reminds me of this the great historian Howard Zinn, once that you cannot stand neutral on a moving train. You must you must take a stance. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have kind of a woo-woo question a little bit because I was talking to Ryan about this earlier. Maybe it's a woo-woo question. Maybe it's religious. I don't know if you're really religious, but so you literally, I was telling Ryan, it's like you kind of came out of the womb and then you were just like this master of painting. And so did you really feel like a call to do this? Like, do you like you really do you really feel like this is your life purpose? I mean, obviously you're doing this for your, you know, career and everything, but I guess I'm curious if it was like an intuitive poll or what it was that just like really got you going. You know, I I I don't know that I ever made the choice because I don't know that I ever had a choice, you know, it it just was as natural and as organic for me as walking or talking whenever was. And I never questioned it, you know, my according to my parents, by time, I was drawing before I was speaking. For me it was it was my way of communicating with others. I was I also think that there was a part of the middle child syndrome that played a role, and it I I felt out of place. I I w as that middle kid, I I had to find it was almost a means of survival. I had to find a way perhaps to get the attention of others, because I couldn't compete with either sibling and I didn't really recognize that there was I thought that everybody could draw or l enjoyed it as much as I did. And I would say probably as early as kindergarten or the first grade, then I started to realize, wait, there's there's something different because I'd look to my left and there was some scribbles on a page from a kid and I looked to my right and my peer was drawing stick figures and I'd look at my drawing Superman and he had shoulders and ribs and you know chin. But you know, I think It was a combination of factors. It was that natural inclination, that natural interest and curiosity about making marks and forms and objects, kept documenting what I saw, translating it through images, paired with my very earliest of experiences of going to my grandparents' home in the south side of San Antonio. It was my first revelation in regards to what a museum would experience might be like for some people, because in their tiny crooked house. It served as the gallery for my great grandfather's paintings, all that filled every wall and every room of that house. I never met him, but I knew him through his words on the walls. And I was absolutely obsessed. What are these things? How do you do these? I want to do that. How do I learn how to do that? How do I do it as well and then eventually better than that? And so, for example, is a early one of his paintings. wow. Only from the 1920s or 30s. I've now inherited all of his canvases and have slowly begun to restore them. But that was the epiphany moment for me because I already knew that I enjoyed doing it. my great grandfather, you know, or the ghost of him at least, reassured me it is possible to do this, to do it on a grander scale. And so those two components together like fused together, you know, they ignited this kind of electricity in me that. I just was like, well, this is it. This is this is just what I'm doing. I remember being a child and telling my parents, like, this is what I'm doing. So you're too young to know. No, no, no. I'm telling you, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. And and I stuck with it since then, you know, but it's been a lifetime of complete commitment and discipline. You know, it was something that I took very s responsibly because I realized early on that with this talent or skill level or interest was going to come great responsibility. You have to nurture it, you have to feed it, you have to protect it. And you know, it was I had to work very, very hard at it. You know, it's it's a long journey and and it's still as exciting to me as it was, you know, at age three and four. I've got two questions related to that. One, I'm very curious if you've ever thought about incorporating some of his visuals into yours. And then the second question is I'm just curious when the photorealism came into that story, or was it as early as Superman? Well, the first to answer your first question, I as I began inheriting all of his paintings from my grandparents over the years, I it's been a remarkable experience for me to recognize in his paintings very, very similar. interest and parallels visually that match my own image images, independently. And so I'm convinced it's absolutely in the in the in the genes, in the DNA, not only the the aesthetics, the principles of painting and drawing and the skills, but the the conceptual interests in the way that he saw the world and was thinking socially and politically and culturally. So in that way, you know, I think we're already collaborating. Exactly. And but what I have begun doing is over the years, my great grandfather wanted to be a full-time working artist in the studio, but was never able to fulfill that dream. And so I've begun incorporating his actual paintings with a few of my exhibitions. And so that's my way of honoring him and but of also helping him to realize, you know, that life dream. The the realism was also it was never a a choice. It just was it's just the way that I naturally see and the way that I naturally create. I never really sat in a studio or at any moment in time and said, Well, do I want to paint abstractly? Do I wanna be a comic book artist? It just I I learned very quickly to just follow my instincts and trust in them. And the realism just always came so naturally. It just I didn't really have to work very hard at the the skills or the technique. I I had to practice constantly, like we all should be doing, regardless of what it is that you are trying to be good at. But it was the ideas, it was the concept, it was the critical thinking that I was really that was most challenging for me because that to me was the ultimate, achievements in regards to my pursuit as as an artist. Yeah. I got to see where did I put it? This show. And LA and Well, that's great because I remember having that conversation with curator Anna Katz and she said I'd love to incorporate you in the show. And I said, I'm all in, but just know that the terminology, the term photorealism means nothing to me. And the look on her face was like, What are you talking about? How can you say it? And we had this great amazing discussion about very similar to what I'm describing to you in regards to how I've chosen to pursue my own technique and and acknowledge genres within art the context of art history, but it never really followed them as a pursuit, as a movement, as a style. And so it just happened to be where you ended up, in other words, like it's just what you needed to do. It wasn't like you made a choice where you're like, I'm gonna be a photorealist. Yeah, you know, I think if I had to pinpoint it to the closest thing that I could call an early influence, it'd be the television screen. Yeah. So when you watched TV was my teacher back in those days. I didn't have access to art classes and art books. So I would get a sheet of tracing paper and I'd tape it onto the screen of my mom's TV. And I'd I would wake for my whatever interesting the most, like Christopher Reeve's Superman. And I would have my mom, you know, pop in the VHS tape, record it so that I could freeze the frame. And then that's how I learned anatomy was by tracing Christopher Reeve's body flying with. And it taught me composition, framing, emotion, drama, sequential narratives. It was everything I needed to help me understand how images not only work, how they function, but how they relate to the viewer. That was it. I mean, it was I just ran with it. That's amazing. Have you rewatched those movies recently? All the time. Yeah. I watched, I watched the first one with my kids and the it the HD. It was cracking me up how the young Superman they did this prosthetic nose and it just looks like clay. That's so funny. It's like this one was better on Yeah, but when it when it was when it was slightly blurry and grainy. That's funny. Yeah. The the the things that hold up to me, especially you know, as as I get older, is the act of storytelling back then, like especially in the nineteen eight in the era of the eighties, the storytelling it was so Complex, even these movies that I always remembered as being more simplistic in their narratives, really spinning, weaving these amazingly detailed emotional stories into, they're always like good trips down memory lanes for me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm realizing in the interest of time, I should probably throw to the next category. So switching gears, we like to start with the complaining, but then the second is good stuff. So it's what feels exciting. alive or worth paying attention to right now. And that can be art. It can also just be, anything. Hmm. Well, to be honest, I what what excites me most, what motivates me and encourages me the most is other people. What I see in people that are in the darkest of hours, in their own unique ways of finding remaining resilient. Convincing others that there's still plenty worth fighting for and helping each other for. And and and I think that this is you know, I don't know that I'll ever lose hope in people. You know, I believe in people, I believe in the spirit of human beings. We just have to continue to find ways to remind ourselves that the situations that we are facing, the struggles that we are finding ourselves in today are nothing new. Especially in the United States of America. These struggles have been a long time coming. Yeah. The difference is now the majority of the American population are now being affected for the very first time. Yep. And and finding themselves in those same crosshairs under the same kinds of threats that communic communities of color have faced for over 200 years. And so if we understand and remind ourselves and find that those flames of found in those history books and in that information and those stories. If we keep those stories alive, it will help. It's gonna be the help that it's gonna be the th the very thing that helps us to survive, not only as a community or as a society, but as a species. and so I refuse to throw in the towel, you know, like that, stubborn. You know, I I am working on a series titled The New Americans that is doing is portraying exactly these kinds of individuals that I'm describing. And I described the new Americans. In my opinion, the new Americans are stubborn pulses in a dying heartbeat. They just refuse to give in. Do you feel like people are waking up in a different way? People who were less affected before. Sure, without a doubt. A little bit late in the game, you know, and I think we're awfully close. So it's gonna be very difficult to reverse a lot of these gears of these machines that are set in motion. But I always was taught. I remember those days in the public school classrooms constantly being preached to that it's the American spirit, the undying American spirit. You never get wrong, right? It's it's what these icons, these true American icons like Superman are supposed to represent to symbolize, but how fast, how easy it is for us to forget. And it's gonna really take a real a massive effort on the part of many communities. as one to pull through how this is gonna play out, you know, we've all yet to determine. But I think that yeah, I I I do believe that there's still there's still a lot worth working towards. You know, I refuse to see it any other way. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like there's this paradox, you know, where we all, you know, everyone raised in the states got that messaging. And then it's almost like those in power are now trying to backtrack and be like, no, no, no, we didn't mean like that. American pride and American exceptionalism, but not if it means that you're actually pushing back against the government, right? And it's this, you know, yeah, it feels like a fight for enough people to wake up in time for it to actually cause thinking even about what just if if you don't mind re me referencing it, what just happened with you with the tornado, like Climate change to me is, you know, the prime example. there's so many, right? But that's almost this umbrella issue where there is a ticking clock, right? And it's like, how do we gather quickly enough? How do we, you know, raise the consciousness quickly enough and mobilize people quick enough to actually be able to overcome things and not just all up end up, you know, in a ditch. And yeah. You know what the crystal clear evidence of what is really possible, you know, what it is for me is if you turn on the television set or computer screen any given day in the contemporary United States and you see 75,000 people mobilized in any American stadium and arena for a sporting event, we can pull together and unite in this way. Nobody can convince me that this is not possible for entirely different motives and reasons and priorities. I think it's the priorities that have been completely skewed. it's it's the it's the we are the modern day Rome. it's the Colosseums. It's the gladiators, yep. And the the spectacle of society. And so when I see these kinds of mass efforts. It's mobilization, really. my team versus your team. You can't tell me that that spirit is in there. It's just been entirely misdirected, commodified, commercialized. So yeah, I just, if we can find a way to convince people, imagine every single Saturday, even if it was just a Saturday, mobilizing for healthcare, mobilizing for safety in the streets, mobilizing against police brutality, mobilizing against poverty and homelessness and this for education, you know, mass shootings in this country. I mean, the list is long and endless in this country. But you can't tell me that people aren't willing to step up and fight for something when they feel passionate about it. Because if you can do it for the Dallas Cowboys, you can do it for any other, you know, reason in this country. Right. And of course we know though too the history of what happens when That's actually effective. Thinking about Fred Hampton or MLK or you don't take your pick. this is the the the merger with technology, whether it's AI or drone warfare or these robo dogs merging with the militarization of all police forces in this country. And this way, I think that the American people have waited far too long and it might be too late in regards to the unleashing of these rogue police states. We are a full-blown police state at this. Point. The surveillance is out of control. I mean, I don't know how you you put these worms back into a can and and see what you see with can. Historically speaking, that does not, it doesn't happen that way. There's no reset button where you just say, okay, just kidding. Let's start over. Yeah. But it can get much worse. You know, it is getting much worse on a daily basis, whether people like to admit it, recognize it or not. There's a new level of violence being unleashed. never before, that has always, forever been taught or regarded as well, those other people and those other faraway countries and places that we are against, that we protect and, deliver democracy to. Well, here it is. it was inevitable. It was inevitable. I think it was Lyndon Johnson who said in nineteen in the nineteen sixties, you know, his observation preaching about communism abroad. But recognized the contradictions of what these police states or these tyrant governments that the American empire was trying to solve globally. And Johnson was cited as saying, but eventually becoming that protector, the protector eventually becomes the monster itself. And that monster will always return home and unleash that violence in his own backyard. And here we are. I mean, it was these visions of like, you know, again, history has shown over and over again, absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. Yep. I think all the time about how even just the three of us being able to sit here and have, relative peace and quiet, right? It's on the backs of people globally who are, right now as we speak, having violence acted out against them. And as you say, in this country right now, right, there is untold horror that allows for our quiet. And I think that it becomes such an interesting question with our Part of the reason I think about that counter propaganda idea is because I heard you mention something about images that last. You were talking about seeing Platoon and how that stuck with you because it was like I want to be able to create an image that, you know, stays with you is was my understanding of it. And said to Sydney, I'm always surprised by artwork. That can feel innocuous and and sometimes decoration, and there's nothing wrong with decoration, but artwork that aims to do things. In any ways, I think I'm just expressing like my own troubled mind around how we push that further and really begin to think. And obviously, you are already doing this. I'm kind of extending this thought to the broad community of artists, I guess, but how we begin to think about embedding that. Struggle and that fight into the work itself, this idea of the avant-garde. I think all the time about how that means the front guard. That's a wartime term, right? And it feels as though one of the things that's been dissolved by the powers that be is the avant-garde in the arts, and unfortunately, very much so in the activist space, too. And I guess what I'm leading up to asking you is like. Do you feel driven to push that even further in your own work? And also like, I don't know, how do you think about maybe it's not a fair question, but I'm curious how you think about that other artwork that's just answering a formal question while take a pick, Palestinians are being, you know, exploded, for example, or we could list off so many, you know, everything that's happening with ICE. I've always struggled with the art world, as a concept and as a system in itself, and it's something that's always been very challenging for me because it is contradicting in me in numerous ways. But at the same time, from my own sanity really, I've found I've worked very hard to not only keep myself distanced from the art world that as a whole, you know, even though I'm you know, I I participate in it, but it was never enough for me. I I never felt like it was really satisfying in the way that it was challenging me or nurturing me in the way that I was seeking. And so I have always tried to find other means of making the work accessible far beyond the art world, you know, to communities that don't participate in the art world, to other facets of daily life the art world would never explore or consider. And I came to the conclusion sometime back that this was going to be a necessary way for me to exist as an artist. Otherwise, I just wasn't sure how to continue making this work in the studio, feeding it to the gallery system, feeding it to the museums, and just calling it a day and then pressing the repeat button over and over. Now, this method of working, my choice in the studio as an artist means that I have to work 10 times harder to constantly reevaluate what I'm doing and who I'm serving. and I know there's plenty of artists, especially painters out there that Would argue with me when I say that I on a daily basis think very deeply about my audience. Who is my audience? What kind of conversation am I having with individuals through images? What how am I affecting individuals? In many ways, when I'm developing my concepts, I'm thinking about the viewer. I'm thinking about populations throughout generations. You know, if I have that privilege of like, Pretending that maybe someday long after I'm gone, somebody somewhere is looking at this work. It's so in tuned to the way that I create any image at this point that I don't know any other way. I'm loving hearing that because in the teaching space, but I beyond that, I just feel like I'll often hear people say, Well, this is for me. I don't think about an audience. I don't care about its reception. And I think I love that description because number one, I think. It's usually not true. I think that everyone is conscious of their audience, but also I think that there is maybe a narcissism or an egoism in that idea that this is just between me and the canvas or whatever, the medium, and that idea of both considering a contemporary audience and whose eyeballs you know are getting on it, but also this idea of legacy. I think it's a really beautiful and like you say, a unique way of thinking and talking about art making and it shows and work. course. I I definitely know this response. You know, I've heard this response from other artists, and that's perfectly fine if that's what works for a certain artist. You know, for me, I always felt, you know, early on that that type of response would be like hiding behind a security blanket, you know, a safety net wasn't enough for me personally. I remember sitting when I was in art school at RISD and sitting in a cubicle by myself and really thinking about my ideas. Okay, so you come equipped with this, these skills already, you come equip equipped with this knowledge of how to use your tools. Okay, but that's not enough. I would I would drill myself daily. So what else do you have, Vincent? What do you have to say though? That's the real question. And once you have once you know what it is that you want to say, you gotta go a step beyond that. Who are you saying it to? And then a step beyond that, now why are you saying it? What are you saying together, merged you artist with viewer as human beings? And I think that That was my ac that was the answer that I was searching for. Was shouldn't this be the storyteller's job? Is to r hasn't it always been the job of the storyteller throughout the history of human beings to remind us all what it is to be human, regardless of century that you lived in, regardless of race, regardless of community, regardless of region, all of the above, right? It's what connects me to some scribbles in a cave in Lascales, France a thousand years ago is The fact that the the idea, the spirit memory that's embedded in each one of us, hey, we were once here. Yeah. This is the way that I think about these images in the studios that one day, if any of us survive and are still around on this rock, then perhaps, just maybe, one single person might stumble across an image of mine somewhere and not only see it for what it is as a visual, but To pierce that skin even further, maybe it would make them wonder a spark of curiosity. Well, who was who made this picture? And this is what it must have felt like, not look like. This is what it must have felt like to be alive in that very single moment when he made this picture. That's what I'm after. So that's the ultimate quest is, you know, the visual is one thing, but how do you paint or draw the anxieties, the tensions, the curiosities, the joys, the love? The spirit as documentation as a report of this very single moment of what the world felt like to be alive and breathing right now. I'm not sure that that can ever be achieved, but it's worth pursuing. That was so beautifully said. And we just interviewed Deborah Roberts, and actually, your response is pretty parallel to what she said, which I think is so interesting. But I did have just a random side tangent. You said that you were seeking things from the art worlds that it wasn't giving you. And I'm curious like what you were seeking specifically. at one moment in time early on, I did I did think that I wanted to pursue the the celebrity ship of being an artist, right? I wanted to be in the large galleries and I wanted to be in the magazines and the museums and and that this was the pursuit. This was the eternal quest. And I learned very quickly, luckily, fortunately, I wised up very fast by the time that I was maybe in my late twenties, early thirties. Hey, this isn't quite what I thought it would be. But that's that feeling of not even satisfaction, that feeling of I don't know, that instinct wasn't there. Something was telling me like, hey, this isn't why you're doing this. It just you're not receiving the kind of connection with humans that I was looking for. I wasn't having the conversations that I thought I would be having. I wasn't meeting the type of individuals that I was connect that I felt connected to, that I assumed would happen naturally just all in the place as you start to become an artist, And then, the the faster and the higher that I stepped up that art food chain, I recognized much more clearly, yeah, th I I need to figure something else out here. I under I rec I respected that look. I don't know how to, change the entire art system. I don't I'm not capable. I don't it's not even really my my quest, W I had to make a decision. Well look, you have to survive. You want to survive and be able to continue making your work and in a studio and pay for food and oil paints and brushes. But you have to find this can't be it. You have to do you have to invent something that is entirely your own. And so this is where printmaking has really stepped in and played such an important key role for me over the past two decades. You know, I I've never allowed a gallery to handle my prints. I've always sold my prints. I will always sell my prints directly one on one with people, you know, and just keep them affordable, accessible. You know, I do plenty of other projects that keep me compelled and and interested, like everything from book covers to album covers to graphic novels and collaborations with different types of People in diff various fields and working with students and it just keeps the whole thing moving for me. I don't know what I would do if it was just gallery system only. I just it's a necessity, but there has to be more. Right. I'm realizing we may need to speed round our last three categories. I wanna I wanna just sorry, I'm probably rambling. No, no, it's it's no, it's all great. Yes. The one thing I wanted to say is Just more of a comment, which is I often think about attention as a material. And I think it relates to what you're saying about the viewer that I think it's something, you know, in art schools where we're not necessarily talking about that idea of like, okay, you might have paints and canvas or, you know, materials for sculpture, whatever it is, but attention itself is one of the materials that's being played with. Kind of related to that, the thing I wanted to squeeze in as a question, which is is there anybody who you exclude in your thinking. So in other words, the people broadly, real people, right? But is there anybody who when you create something you think this is not for you? I definitely don't think that way. You know, I So Donald Trump. I think sort of joking, but yeah. I I I say bring it on. Like come give me three minutes of your time. Okay. You know, look closely at this image. You know when I premiered the city painting at David Shelton gallery in Houston in twenty sixteen. there was a small handful of white supremacists that walked in in their skull and crossbones and shaped heads and red polo shirts and Confederate flag patches. And they stood there while the rest of the crowd that night parted almost like the r the Red Sea and left them alone and and they just carefully examined. How they knew about the piece, the opening, what they thought of it, who knows? But what was important was they showed up and they paid attention for six minutes. If I excluded individuals in any way, then I in my opinion, how's that any different from these parties or forces that keep us divided? And so I think that this is a true, genuine act of resistance and rebellion that art still maintains a power of art. in its essence is it is that one last bastion, the binder, the glue that brings that can bring us together, it holds us together. And once that's deteriorated, then I I say good good night and good luck. Right. You know, and and and and if art wasn't if the arts and the humanities were not a threat, tell me that they aren't a threat today, which is why we see the University of Texas taking the actions that they're taking in university systems and museums. all the way up the chain of commands. the the arts promote critical thinking and engagement with other humans to humans. And this is why it's constantly in the threats, you know, seen as a threat and in the crosshairs of dictative forces, you know, throughout time. Right. Absolutely. Okay. So our next category is ghosts. So your influences, histories, and lingering presences shaping your current work. Hm. I always say I was born too late, I think, in the wrong era. I because I've always, for a lifetime now, I keep very few artists closest to me. I can count them on one hand. Time and time again, when I need them, I need their voices, their spirits. They've helped me constantly, consistently get through any kind of hole I'm in or over any brick wall. And that very simply stated is artist like Philip Gustin. Otto Dix, George Gros, Leon Gallub, Kathy Colewitz, Christian Shad, Banshon. Probably the only living artists that I carry very close to me would be a good old legendary Pierre Saul. Yeah. And that's it. Those are the few that I just keep with me and I hear their voices. You know, I these make believe voices in my head. And I I feel so connected to them, not only because of, maybe their mastery of as technicians, as visionaries, but because I'm more interested and feel connected to them through and by their life stories. Right. After learning about who they were and what they did in their lifetimes and the challenges that they face, the consequences in many cases that they face because as a result of the works they were making, they're the they're the ghosts on my shoulders. Yeah. people with guts, which could be a good segue to the guts category. So we have it written down as process, risk, and what it actually takes to make the work. So the reason I phrase that funny is because we had kind of envisioned it initially as like we're gonna talk about how people make what they make, right? Like kind of the nuts and bolts. But over time, because we use the word guts, it often becomes a question about courage and sort of What gives you the I was gonna say balls, I'll just say balls. What gives you the balls to do what you do? So you could take that either any way you want to. Another ghost, a fantastic, amazing poet and writer, Cuban writer, Ronaldo Arinas, 1970s, 1980s. In an interview in New York, he was asked, you know, after he was exiled from Cute blow, he was asked why he writes in this such revolutionary material. Why do you write, Ronaldo? And he stared the camera dead in the eye and said, Revenge. I thought, well, that's really amazing. I understood it. It spoke to me. Yeah, I think that, you know, my answer very simply would be, as far as the you know, the the guts and the courage to do something, it's because I know there's others out there who think I shouldn't. I couldn't. I mean I won't. And so therefore I do. It's probably again attributed back to the middle child syndrome, just me trying to repel. But no, it's it's been the thing that's carried me through. I remember s in the first few days of creating the city painting, or even, going all the way back to a painting like Killed the Pachuco Bastard about the Zoo Tut riots when I was in my final semester at RISD and those voices, those outside voices saying, You can't do that. Don't you dare why would you do that? Because I killed. That's it. Yeah. Easier said than done, right? I feel like it's Part of what is impressive about your work. Yeah, go ahead. Well, the challenge isn't starting something. That's the easy part. The real challenge, the scary part is finishing it. Can you see it through? Not only because of the scale and the amount of time that it takes, but because of what you are pursuing. Right? What are you chasing? What is the can of worms that you're trying to o what is that window that you're trying to force open? Very few people, especially people with success as artists. You know, I find that That's success. that can be a dangerous thing because it really makes the act of risk taking that much scarier. But for me, it's it's you just gotta I try to keep these maintain a laser sharp focus in the studio by reminding myself, asking myself, why are you doing this? Why have you always wanted to do this? Go back to the foundation, go back to the beginning, to the root that's holding me in place. That's it. Run with that. That's enough. Right. Do you think those voices that would tell you n don't do this, you can't do this, do you think it was like a jealousy thing? Couldn't be jealousy because I don't maintain a lot of engagement with other artists. I just don't. The majority of my interactions with whether it's friends or communities around me really have nothing to do with the art world. And that's not really by choice. It's just the way that I am. I relate to musicians more than I do painters. You know, I relate to writers way more than I do, you know, and draftsmen and women and I'm more interested in voices from the outside world. And so I think that their words of discouragement were probably based from concern, from fear. Concern for me, hey, you don't want to do this. there's gonna be backlash. You're you're not gonna sell this, you're not gonna be liked, you're not gonna be, respected, whatever it is. But I think that as an artist, the hardest job of all isn't the production and the editing process. Those are difficult. But the toughest job of all is remaining your own mentor, remaining your own coach in the corner of that ring, reminding you to get back up. Don't quit. You know, gotta keep going and you gotta see it through no matter what until the bell goes ding. You gotta see it through. You wanna squeeze in growth, Sydney? Yes. So our last category is what are the solutions you see? But also if you have a show coming up or anything, you can also promote that. Well, there's a number of things coming up that I'm very excited about that landed on my lap since we last spoke a few weeks ago and may or may not change the course of, my path perhaps. I received a a random phone call and from the MacArthur Foundation about three TZs ago and being who I am, I I didn't answer the phone for the first ten first ten phone calls and then and even when they did Yeah, I did finally answer. I asked them, Well, can you just call me later? I'm busy right now. That's so funny. And then I they finally get a hold of me and drop the news, and I was in complete shock and embarrassed by by the way I reacted and or responded. And but this is you know, this is a a real crowning achievement. I mean, never were in my wildest dreams that I imagined that something like this would happen. And if it did, maybe I'd be eighty-nine years old and so it couldn't be more beautiful timing for me because the very next day I will be in conversation at the Rothko Chapel in Houston with Lani Ali, who is Mohammed Ali's wife. And we'll we will be speaking about the work she's doing as a director of the Mohammed Ali Center in Gleaville, along with my year-long project with in partnership with the ACOU. And then I'll race back to San Antonio and in October I'll open My first show in San Antonio, my first solo exhibition in San Antonio in 14 years. Wow. I will be showing with Alamo Community Colleges. It's the largest network. I think now the nation of community colleges in one state. And they're really doing some tremendous work. And it's gonna be a real honor and privilege to bring my work back home and back into the community that raised me. There's a few scattered, you know, group shows in and out of Texas, but I would say those Probably those three. I'm really looking forward to and we're very proud of Yeah. That's so exciting. I know. That is so so awesome. Congratulations. That's yeah. It took a few days to sink in. And then they, you know, they hit hard with, you know, I sent the film crew down and PR teams, and it's a it's a big thing. And so just what a tremendous honor. You know, it's it's yet like just one more reminder, a whisper, keep on going. Because I I think it's easy for many people to assume. I hear it all the time. well, Vincent, we just assumed you were perfectly fine. You don't have any worries in the world. You get everything you want. You you're good. You're set to go. People have no idea that the erosion, the optics, are almost always entirely different from what they seem. And no, it's a real grind in here. And working seven days a week, you know, all hours of day and night and paintings that can never ever finish themselves. And it's a it's a really powerful testament to the act of remaining committed, you know, disciplined, believing in something, even in those especially in those moments when you're absolutely entirely convinced that no one gives a damn. Right. Well, it has been such an honor to talk to you. I feel like we jumped in that I yeah, didn't even say to you like, hey, thank you. No worries. No worries. But thank you so much. Yes, thank you so much. And thank you for dealing with the tech and and also, you know, being willing to talk to us during such a crazy busy time. Crazy time, yeah. Positive and more challenging. But yeah. Yeah, no worries. No, it was that that storm hit forty eight hours after the MacArthur phone call. And so it couldn't have been a more Humbling experience because I was convinced that the freaking art gods up there somewhere, the painting gods were like, yeah, just here's a reminder just to keep you in check. Yeah. that's crazy. I keep it keeping. Yeah. But I you know, it's I wouldn't trade for anything else. Vincent, thanks so much. Have a great rest of your day. You too. It's good to talk to you both. You too. Great to meet you.