Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Un-Collapsing

Transcript

Un-Collapsing · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I am so overwhelmed by everything in the last few weeks. It's like a blur and I can't even catch up. And I certainly cannot think or process enough to even make sense of things yet. I know I sound terrible, I'm not actually crying. I have COVID again.
• 1:33
  And this time has actually been far worse than any other time I've had COVID. And my doctor said that they don't know why that is the case, but that it is common right now. And probably because of variants or something and they don't know. But oh my goodness, this was unpleasant. Zero out of 10, do not recommend.
• 2:02
  I'm so frustrated because we have mostly been so very careful and I just still got so, so sick. So here's what happened. I don't even know where to begin, but I have to get it all out so that I can even focus much less think about anything. And I can't even think because of the brain fog. And if you haven't had COVID brain fog, let me tell you, it's a bizarre experience.
• 2:41
  It's like dissociating except you're present for it. Like you're aware that you're not there. It's weird. I don't even know how to tell you. And I can't think or like, it takes me a really long time to process what other people are telling me, especially if it's only hourly, like where I have to listen.
• 3:07
  And it is, I don't know, even trying to prepare a meal for the children or something, like I have to think through all these steps so consciously And it's I can't even tell you. So I am gonna tell you. I'm not even coherent. I'm so sorry. So I was deployed, I was doing virtual trainings, I have a tour of duty, I am on my way right, we know all these things, especially if you're in the community.
• 3:49
  I shared some pictures. But I was brought home early because the husband tested positive for COVID. Now how that even happened, I don't know because our family is so so careful and school had already been out for a week. So I don't even know what happened. And school had already been out for the summer for a whole week.
• 4:17
  So I don't even know how that happened. They had not been anywhere, unless it just incubated for that long, like I don't know, I don't know. And I'm not here for any conspiracies or COVID drama. I'm just telling you, we don't feel good. And so, oh my goodness, I can't even think.
• 4:42
  And so, okay, so I was sent home because they need a primary caregiver, and he was down for the count. Not only this, but now his elderly parents also had COVID and were positive. And so that's not good. And they were a mess. It was a crisis situation.
• 5:04
  I can't even tell you, I can't even tell you. It was so so scary. And it was so so bad, like they were bad, bad sick. And besides just being sick, the fatigue and exhaustion and trying to care for his mother, he and his dad were just wiped, okay? You don't need any more details of that because of privacy, but I'm just telling you, it was not a pretty situation.
• 5:34
  And it was so just heartbreaking that they were all suffering. So I made it home and I have five of the kids at this house, because one of the children was already visiting the grandparents for their turn to visit when everyone tested positive over there. So he got stuck. He was not positive, but he got stuck in quarantine from isolating from their isolation because of his exposure to them, he couldn't come home. And that was heartbreaking.
• 6:12
  And what, I mean he was fine, he was like, oh yay vacation with the grandparents. But what a bizarre experience to not be able to go rescue my child. And let me tell you about big feelings that came up with that in me. Like in real life, he was fine. And he was having a blast and he was doing his thing.
• 6:35
  And like we took over his bike and his trumpet and all this so that he could be there with his windows open and his own air circulating and have time outside where he was not around other people, but where he can move and play and wear his mask when he had to go through the house to get out. And so like, we were doing all the things and he was fine and I was dropping off food for them, so it was okay. But my heart, oh my heart to be able to not get to him, to not be able to get to him, to not be able to get to the husband or his parents, or be able to be any more help than I was, it was awful. But let me tell you, not as awful as what happened next. What happened next was that all the kids, the other five kids that I had, all of a sudden like a day later, the day after I got back started dropping like flies.
• 7:50
  And thought, and at first I almost didn't notice other than that mom intuition, which I don't always have access to. But they were getting, there was fussing and bickering and I'm like, who are you people? Like this is not the kind of home we have. What is going on with all this negativity and like the smallest thing would happen and somebody would just fall apart. Or at one point someone was just laying on the ground and I was like, you need to come eat breakfast and they're like, I don't think I can stand up.
• 8:29
  And I'm like, oh man. So what do we do? We get everybody tested and sure enough, all five of them tested positive. And I cannot believe it. So I mean, I can't leave them, they're my children, right?
• 8:48
  So I have to stay with them. And so yes, by the next day, I am also positive. And this I'm telling you, I am telling you by my own lived experience, this whatever this was, is, was completely different than anything else I have experienced thus far. And it was awful. It is the closest to death I have ever felt from illness besides like chemo.
• 9:25
  It was so bad, it is so bad, I still feel terrible. I had the fevers and the chills and the coughing until I couldn't breathe. It was just, I can't, it was bad. It was really bad. The children mostly had the fatigue and like fevers, and they did not have chills as much unless I just didn't know about it.
• 10:00
  They did not have chills as much, but they had fevers and they were fatigued and a little bit of coughing. They also had the headache and the sore throat, which I also had. So they were learning how to use chloreceptic tablets to numb their throats and how to suck on it for the medicine, not chew it like candy. You guys never laugh so hard. Except we couldn't laugh because we couldn't breathe.
• 10:31
  So we were just piled up and it was a mess. It was a mess and we did not feel good. On top of this, because of where we live, the only thing that the doctors would offer us was ivermectin. I am not trying to be political at all, but I don't need the horse medicine and the science says that that doesn't help and it's not what we wanted. And so we declined that and had to go online to a doctor app, upload our labs, upload pictures of our throat, upload pictures of our positive test, upload the confirmation of the test from the hospital.
• 11:16
  They do all these extra steps and then talk to a telehealth doctor who then was able to prescribe me Paxlovid, which did actually help enough that I can function. Although I know the rebound is coming because the illness is a fourteen day illness and the medicine is only five days. So I know that this is a brief reprieve and I had to, but it's better than dead. And I'm not making light at all. It was super scary, especially for his mother.
• 11:58
  Like, there was a couple days where I like, oh my goodness, like, I know eventually the husband's parents are gonna pass just because it is mortality, I get that. But we so want her to be comfortable and safe we've worked so hard to care for her and she was miserable and this was awful. And I know so many people who have passed from COVID or whose family members have passed from COVID. We know so many patients either from being deployed during the pandemic, like we can't even tell you. Like I know this has been a worldwide thing, so I'm not making light of it at all.
• 12:47
  But I was so so worried for them. And then that wasn't even the only safety issue. We have the school shooting in Texas, which is only like three hours from where we live. We had the school shooting in Texas, which is only three hours from where we live and that is just heartbreaking. Like there are not words for that.
• 13:17
  And we were, it happened while we were sick. And so we didn't know about it till later and so there were people were like, why didn't we have a Zoom room to open and process some of this? And I know we have tried so hard to be open to that and that we've done it through several different situations and we did a podcast on different things to talk about as a family, like the leak from the Supreme Court. These kinds of things are important to have conversations about as a community and to hold space for together. But you guys, I was just sick.
• 13:52
  I'm so sorry, it was not any kind of neglect. We were just that sick. And I'm appreciative of those who cared for each other and who did hold space for each other in other groups, why they needed to talk about it. And for those who don't need to talk about it, or find it overwhelming or only want to talk about it with their therapist, good for you for taking care of you. I'm really, really glad that different people are able to meet their own needs in different ways.
• 14:25
  That's really important that you do you boo. But now it's not only, but now it hasn't even been a week. And we had this shooting at the hospital where my daughter goes, where my son goes, where all my children have had surgeries, where we spend hours in those offices in the hallways where the shooting happened. And then in this example of now time doesn't feel safe when there's actual danger happening. And that's really scary.
• 15:08
  And those are vulnerable spaces, not just because it's the hospital or where the local children's hospital is at that same hospital, but it's also where our labs are, where the breast exam is, like so much happens in those office buildings where we already feel vulnerable. And so for that to not feel like a safe space is exactly what we have been talking about in therapy, is exactly what we have been talking about in therapy, about when now time is not feeling safe anymore, or not just feeling safe, it is not safe sometimes. What do you do with that? And so many people know where we are and know where we live. And so we were getting so many messages asking if we were okay.
• 16:02
  They knew we've been sick and that we've been to that hospital, not to get ivermectin, but to get labs done and all of this. And so we're checking on us and making sure that we were okay. So we finally just posted in the community. Yes, this has happened here. Yes, that's where I've been.
• 16:22
  But no, I was not there today, I am safe. And we can talk about it more later, but here's a thread, you can use this thread to talk about it if you've got big feelings. And then I got Paige as a first responder to go be deployed there as a chaplain and help with mental health and chaplain stuff at the hospital at the scene, but I couldn't go because I was COVID positive. So this scene I did not see, was not involved in at all. I will be doing some help virtually, but I wasn't able to go on scene at all because of being sick.
• 17:04
  Guys, I can hardly talk. This is so hard. And I can't get emotionally upset because I can't breathe well enough to cry. Great practice for regulating and containing, right? Oh my goodness, like when your life depends on it, I'll edit out all my hacking that's happening in between sentences.
• 17:27
  So what else I can do is I posted an article for my local friends about how our brains respond to trauma, what we're experiencing when we witness trauma locally in our own community, like not just on the news, but here where we live, what that happens, what happens in your brain, and how we respond and what that's gonna look like and how to care for ourselves, how to care for children. So I posted an article because how else can I help, right? And I wanna respond in ways that are healthy and helpful. But I'm so sick, that's literally all I can do. So it begs the question, the very same thing that we've been talking about in therapy, How to make things, how do we know what is safe enough, even when now time is not safe?
• 18:29
  So I am sick and I am miserable, but I'm also getting better and I have medicine to help with my cough. And we have the support that we need from friends and community to help with the children and to help with the parents and we're doing our best altogether, even though we're a mess as a family right now. There's a tragedy locally and only hours away, big tragedies that are just not okay and caused such trauma for so many and that, and how awful all of that feels. And yet also, I'm in my bedroom with my lights on and the sun is coming up and a new day is starting as if none of that ever happened. As if I'm not too sick to sit up, As if other people are so grief stricken that they can't even sit up because they've lost loved ones to this violence.
• 19:39
  It's so heartbreaking and it's so hard and it puts things in perspective of, and in some ways, in some ways we as survivors can resonate with some of these things because we're so familiar with pain and grief and violation in our own way. But also at the same time, because we are so good at dissociating, It's also really easy to just not look at those issues or not pay attention to those issues or not speak to those issues. So for us, the healthy thing is actually holding space for both of those continuum. It's actually holding space for both of those sort of ends to the continuum where I resonate with this because da da da da da, and I feel this is coming up for me and here are my feelings and what that means to me. But also, that's really overwhelming to think about or to process or to talk about because da da da da da.
• 20:52
  And so that feels like da da da da da, and being able to talk through all of that in therapy and work through it together. It's kind of a big deal. What does matter is that I don't avoid it all together or get drowned in someone else's stuff that I focus on what's applicable to me and my part of the world and where I'm at and what I need to work through in therapy. And what applies here for us is that we have been walking through the podcast, Is that the right word walking? Can you walk through the podcast if you're listening to the podcast?
• 21:37
  Going through the podcast, we've been going through the podcast together in therapy. And we have made it all the way to Iris, which is obviously sort of the darkest of the dark, like the hardest point for us in the pandemic of sort of when we crashed and burned is what it feels like. So when we were talking with our therapist about what we learned about AttachCry, what she was sharing was when we were sort of abandoned by our previous therapist and things fell apart there and we finally had to leave because it was getting worse and not better. And we thought the only way to make it better was to remove ourselves from this situation. And then we were left in attached cry for like that whole year.
• 22:34
  And that was the same timing as the pandemic, which is like the worst thing that could have happened. I mean, not minimizing people who actually suffered and struggled with actual crisis. But I mean, the isolation that came with that was the opposite of what you need when you're an attached cry. And so for us mentally and emotionally, aside from the pandemic issue itself, that level of isolation we were in was like the worst thing that could have happened for being in an attached cry kind of place internally. And so we have spent the last six months of therapy, maybe eight months, I don't know how many months it's been now talking about that and processing through that and the grief of that and what that was like losing that therapist and losing our friends and enduring that alone and what attached cry was and what that was like and how awful it was and what it brought up from the past and how it was so re traumatizing because it was a reenactment of those layers.
• 23:53
  And not only this, but my therapist talked about and we've listened to the Maureen McEvoy episode now. But she also talked about how reenactment is really an unfortunate word. Because even though it's explaining the concept, it really is a very shaming thing. It's very shaming terminology, because it sounds like you're doing something on purpose to make it happen again. And she emphasized over and over and over, our therapist emphasized, this was not your fault.
• 24:33
  This is transference, this is relationships, this is where the wound is. You don't know that you're trying to bring it to the surface and you're not recreating harm on purpose. And so we talked about that a lot, but also reframed it as this inner wisdom of us knowing that wound needs to be cleaned. And so in a way that reenactment becomes a kind of medicine to ourselves, even though it causes such drama externally. It's a way of trying to clean the wound and trying to heal the wound.
• 25:11
  But as long as other people respond to that because of their issues in ways that don't actually heal the wound, then it is re traumatizing and it is awful and it is painful, which is different than what we're doing in therapy now, which is actually tending to it and bringing healing to it. And as it heals, it doesn't have to keep acting out because it doesn't have to come to the surface because it is healing, it is healed, it is resolved, has been tended to and so like any other thing, the symptoms don't have to be so loud when you've already listened to it. And so that's the difference. But what she says is that by the time we got to Iris, we were not in attach cry anymore, we were already in collapse. And collapse she says is like, when attach cry fails, and there's literally no other way to survive, your body goes into collapse, because your brain is literally preparing to die and doing the work to make that comfortable and possible, not because it wants to, but bracing for death, that must be inevitable because no help has come.
• 26:48
  So this is where I'm at in the pandemic in December 2020. And so that's why it felt like betrayal when people are preaching about connection being safety, and I'm wrestling with it and I'm trying to understand it. But for me, the connections I had made had betrayed me and left me in danger. So connection was not what I needed. What I needed was to get away from the betrayal, right?
• 27:28
  And you can go back to mammal brain and reptile brain and turning toward and getting away and all of that whether research is proven or disproven, but the concepts of those ideas of those responses, the point is that the part of me that was trying to get away was not sabotaging what was good. The part of me that was trying to get away was trying to protect me from what was danger. And the part of me, and that part of me, that protective part of me was not bad. They were right. And my feelings were right.
• 28:23
  It was very toxic and I did need to get out of that. And I was not going to be healthy until I did. So staying in it was hell. Being alone away from it was worse and it wasn't until I got out of it that I started to get better. And I had to stop fawning, even though I didn't have the word or concept of fawning yet.
• 28:53
  I had to stop trying so hard and giving so many pieces of myself away before I would have enough resources of myself inside myself to gather myself enough I could rally and literally stay alive. I could not pull out of collapse, as long as there was nothing else in me, because I was giving it all away. I could not pull myself out of collapse, as long as I was giving all my pieces to everybody but myself. I could not have the strength to rally out of collapse, to stay alive. As long as I was denying the part of me that knew where the danger was.
• 30:06
  That part of me wasn't trying to harm me. That part of me wasn't trying to cause me suffering. That part of me was pointing to where the suffering already was, so that we could be safe from it, so that we could get away from it so that we could heal it. And so, and what I learned from that, what I learned from that is that when I think about what is non negotiable in my life moving forward, it's not about other people. It's about how I myself am willing to be treated.
• 30:53
  Because what happened to me was not okay. But that's on them. What's on me is whether I stay around to be treated that way or not. And so this reenactment layer comes in, just then, but with the previous therapist before that, or the previous one before that. Or where that comes in before, and how that plays out like a reenactment looks like all these layers in the past, whether it's other therapists violations, or whether it's a therapist that took me home, or whether we're looking at relationships that I was with an alcoholic or domestic violence or experiences in the past where I was not being treated in good and safe ways, or all the way back to when I was 17 and had to leave home literally to stay alive.
• 31:57
  So it starts to make sense when we have all of the pieces. And this is part of what makes me safe enough in now time, even when now time is dangerous or difficult, because there are parts of me that are good at recognizing danger. And in the past, I have been afraid of or avoided those parts because I did not understand them. In the past I have been afraid of or avoided those parts because I could not have them honestly, honestly, honestly, because I could not have them pointing at something I thought I needed and telling me that was danger because they couldn't reconcile that in my brain. But now that I understand that it's not someone outside me, that is going to rescue me or save me that my therapist is not God.
• 33:17
  Now that I understand that I can better listen to myself, myself, my parts, because I know it is us, we as a system, it is me who keeps myself safe enough in the world, no matter what is happening in the world around me. Because that is the difference between being a child and being an adult is that I care for myself, that I can keep myself safe, that I have adult resources, even when circumstances are terrible, it is not the same as being a helpless child without any resources. So what was toxic for me before in that season was that I kept being told to stop being afraid, stop doubting, stop listening to yourself, stop using your senses. I don't think that that's what those people meant, which is why they were so baffled when I had such strong reactions against these messages. I think they meant good.
• 34:38
  I think they meant to care in the ways that they know. But it was not the right medicine for me. It was not what I needed and it was not being heard. I was not listening. They were not listening to me.
• 34:54
  And if I was going to listen to them, it meant me also not listening to me. That was the problem. It has nothing to do with them. It has to do with me. I have to listen to me and I have to use my senses, and I have to listen to my feelings and let them be what they are.
• 35:16
  Anything else is dissociation. And the definition of being present and aware is listening to your senses, is feeling your feelings and paying attention. And where I was in the middle of the pandemic, completely isolated in attached cry, overwhelmed with single parenting six children, all of my issues all splayed out with no therapist in December 2020. Now time could not be safe when I was not safe. Now time cannot be safe when you are in active and ongoing trauma.
• 36:05
  I had to first get safe enough, get safe enough and find the resources I needed to create safety so that I could come back to my senses. And the whole point about my senses and feeling my feelings and not denying them is because that is my very capacity to interpret the world around me. That's what my therapist told me. She said that coming back, when I talk about how now I feel like I'm finally coming back to my senses, she says that's like literally what it means. It's my capacity to accurately interpret the world around me.
• 36:55
  And you can't do that when someone has toxic positivity. I do not mean regular positivity where you think about the good things or you notice the good things. That's very authentic and valid. I am talking about toxic positivity, where you only look at good things or impose good things over or instead of or denying also what is hard and also what is difficult. You've got to be able to hold space for both to see the gray because without holding all the information from all the parts, there is no truth.
• 37:38
  There is no capacity for your senses. There's no way to interpret the world around you. You cannot be safe and that's what makes us unwell. What makes us well, the very thing that makes us well, is that capacity to interpret the world around us, which is noticing our senses, which is paying attention to our feelings, which is learning what is safe enough and how we are safe enough and who helps us be safe enough, how we help ourselves be safe enough. And all of this is why relational trauma is so hard, because the problem is in the attachment itself.
• 38:33
  You can never fix it. You can never make that kind of rupture go away and when it's not repaired, it's not going to get better. And when you are wounded within the context of relationship, that changes you. My therapist said this and I was blown away because I have wrestled with this so much. She says like, you're never going to be the same person that you were.
• 39:06
  It is not repairable. You can't just go back in time and have this soft, sweet innocence that you have before such and such happened. That wounded you, it caused a scar, it changes you, we can heal from it, we can work together to make it safe enough, and we can create newness from it with the healing that comes, but you are never going to be the same. And this blew me away. There is grief in that.
• 39:46
  It is a death of hope moment. But it's also the seed of resurrection of hope returning, like the sun rising again the next day, because I don't need to be the same person I was before. The person I was before was not aware of and denying parts of me that were warning me of danger. Now, I know how to listen to those parts of me that warn me of danger. And that helps keep me safe.
• 40:31
  So I am not the same person I was before and I can never be the same person I was before. But I am also stronger and I am also healthier and that's okay. My therapist said, your relationship with your previous therapist was so intense and you cared so much and you wanted so much to be cared for. But when your therapist is God, they become your container Or when your therapist is your only container and that's taken away, or it's dropped and shattered, that can't be repaired. But I can create a new container, but it be my container.
• 41:29
  I am the one who creates safety for myself. It's my work, Therapy is my work. It's not dependent on or attached to my therapist, even my therapist now. So having this strong relationship in therapy, but also where I'm the one containing myself. One of the weird effects of this is that I'm actually not in crisis between sessions, like at all.
• 42:05
  Like I keep doing my therapy work, she continues to be very responsive. So it's awful, awful when attachment is the problem. And it's tricksy because attachment is also the solution. Relational trauma has to heal in relationship. We can't just heal it by ourselves.
• 42:37
  And it's so ironic because it's almost the same thing inside out. When it's a toxic relationship, I'm having to contain everything by myself, because the other person is not safe or dependable or responsive or whatever, fill in the blank. And yet somehow they're holding the container or telling me what the container should look like or something like that. But when it's healthy, I decide what my container is. I decide what my container looks like.
• 43:14
  What is enough for me? What holds enough or how big it needs to be or how deep it goes or not? Like I regulate all of those things on myself. I decide those things for myself. I do those things for myself and yet also not in isolation.
• 43:33
  I do it in context with an other and that's where healing happens. When I can safely do that with someone else And yet even with them, it's still my work that I'm doing. And it changes things. So there's so much happening inside me. And I don't just mean a virus and there's so much happening in the world around me from shootings to war, like so much violence, not just triggers, but new and ongoing traumas that are not okay.
• 44:21
  That is not how people are designed. It's not what brings us health or hope or healing is the antithesis of these things. And yet, even when there are no easy answers, we have listeners in Ukraine, we have listeners in Russia, we have listeners in Texas, we have listeners in all these places where real struggles are happening, where these traumas have happened, people dealing with real stuff, not just old stuff, but right now stuff, you listening now overwhelmed with whatever is happening in your life. You are not alone. But also, we are adults with adult resources and that helps us to recognize danger.
• 45:21
  It helps us create safety enough for ourselves to function and to survive and to be resourceful in creating connection and finding what it is that we need for safety and for healing. And to make the choices that we need to rally ourselves enough to survive, even impossible situations and in that, there's something really miraculous. I don't know what's gonna happen in the world. I assume by science and faith tradition that it's going to get worse before it gets better. That breaks my heart.
• 46:18
  How that's gonna look, how it's going to unfold, I don't know. But I do know that we are in this together. And I do know that we have the capacity within us to interpret the world around us accurately, to know how to make choices, to find resources enough to help us to make the world safe enough that there can still be hope and healing, even in such awful circumstances. And that's why we don't collapse. That's why we don't give up.
• 47:06
  That's why we survive.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing.