Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / Die Kruezen: Milwaukee's Hidden Punk Pioneers [Episode 314]

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Die Kruezen: Milwaukee's Hidden Punk Pioneers [Episode 314] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On this episode of Booked on Rock, the story of
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  Speaker 1: one of the most influential bands in punk, metal and
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  Speaker 1: alternative rock, The Story of De Creutzen, with author Sahan
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  Speaker 1: Jayas Soria.
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  Speaker 2: We're totally bum rock and roll.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading Little hens says,
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  Speaker 3: it's time to.
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  Speaker 1: Rock and roll. Roll up, we are totally booked. Welcome
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  Speaker 1: back to book dot Rock, the podcast for those about
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  Speaker 1: to read and rock on Eric Sanitch. This episode's guest
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  Speaker 1: is Sahan Jai Soria, the author of Don't Say Please,
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  Speaker 1: The Oral History of De Creuzen. Sahan, thanks for being here.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me right.
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  Speaker 1: This is a book that was ten years in the making.
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  Speaker 1: Tell us how it came together. And you just spoke
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  Speaker 1: to so many people, including all the members of the band.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I started probably officially. I started the
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  Speaker 3: book ten years ago, and I didn't have any publisher involved,
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  Speaker 3: and it was just kind of this thing that I
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  Speaker 3: was doing because I felt like this is a really
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  Speaker 3: important band for my city. It was clearly very influential,
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  Speaker 3: and I just wanted to tell their story and just
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  Speaker 3: kind of share it with anyone, not only the people
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  Speaker 3: who are fans of them. But hopefully, you know, expose
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  Speaker 3: their music to you know.
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  Speaker 2: A whole new aud some of the listeners.
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  Speaker 3: And kind of the more research I did, the more
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  Speaker 3: I realized that they had pretty sizable following amongst you know,
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  Speaker 3: pretty prominent musicians. So over time I just kind of
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  Speaker 3: kept reaching out to people and and just setting on
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  Speaker 3: my own interviews, and you know, next thing I knew it,
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  Speaker 3: it was like seven years in, and you know, I'm
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  Speaker 3: still like, am I done?
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  Speaker 2: Am I not done?
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  Speaker 3: And when Farrel House got involved, that's when they were like, Okay,
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  Speaker 3: I think you're a pretty good place now you should
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  Speaker 3: you know, finish instead of just keep going. So they're
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  Speaker 3: kind of the ones who really got me to focus
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  Speaker 3: and and and kind of pare it down and edit
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  Speaker 3: it into the form that you see at the end
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  Speaker 3: of the day.
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  Speaker 1: One of the many people you spoke with was which Vig,
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  Speaker 1: legendary producer who produced the band's albums, and he said,
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  Speaker 1: quote de Kreutz and or one of those bands that
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  Speaker 1: influenced a thousand other bands that went on to have
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  Speaker 1: huge success. Why they didn't have the same level of
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  Speaker 1: success as something we'll get into a little bit more,
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  Speaker 1: but interesting, I'm interested in finding out how you discovered
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  Speaker 1: this band, it was that you were working at a
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  Speaker 1: record store, I believe right right.
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  Speaker 2: I was working at a legendary record shop.
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  Speaker 3: In Milwaukee that's no longer around, called Atomic Records, and
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  Speaker 3: my boss at the time, they gave me a copy
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  Speaker 3: of their first sevenence just to like check out, and
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  Speaker 3: he knew I was into hardcore, and I didn't really
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  Speaker 3: know him as someone as being into hardcore, so I
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  Speaker 3: didn't really expect much of it, honestly, and when I
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  Speaker 3: took it home, it just blew me away.
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  Speaker 2: I was just like, I was not prepared for it.
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  Speaker 2: And I think one of.
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  Speaker 3: The reasons that really blew me away is it didn't
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  Speaker 3: really sound like anything else I had heard at that time,
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  Speaker 3: and I'd heard a lot of hardcore, but there was
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  Speaker 3: a lot of elements about it that just didn't make
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  Speaker 3: sense to me in terms of like the time that
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  Speaker 3: it was being made, so like the vocals were way
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  Speaker 3: more aggressive, the music was a lot tighter it.
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  Speaker 2: It was just a different thing.
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  Speaker 3: And then you know, the more that I kind of listen,
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  Speaker 3: the more questions I had, And I think me discovering
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  Speaker 3: their music more is also what kind of led me
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  Speaker 3: to eventually wanting to write a book because I had
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  Speaker 3: so many questions that I just wanted to have answered myself.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: But you know, as they evolved, you know, they made
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  Speaker 3: this amazing debut album that's just like straight ahead, super fast,
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  Speaker 3: super tight hardcore, and it's pretty much like among that crowd,
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  Speaker 3: it's like universally lauded. Like it's just it's one of
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  Speaker 3: those hardcore records that most people can just agree on.
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  Speaker 3: Everyone loves it. And the problem with doing something like
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  Speaker 3: that is, like, where do you go from there? When
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  Speaker 3: you make this thing that people love so much? Like
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  Speaker 3: if there's no way that you could follow it up
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  Speaker 3: with a you know, a better version of that, right,
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  Speaker 3: so you have to do something different. And so they
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  Speaker 3: started to explore other styles of music, and it's just
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  Speaker 3: it wasn't a conscious decision on their part.
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  Speaker 2: They just evolved.
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  Speaker 3: Based on what they were into, both like the stuff
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  Speaker 3: that they grew up with because they were really into
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  Speaker 3: you know, prog stuff when they were younger, and also
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  Speaker 3: like the post punk stuff and things like you know,
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  Speaker 3: Brian Eno and Wire. But there's newer influences as that
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  Speaker 3: were coming into the fold for them because they were
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  Speaker 3: really into like the forty D Records bands and just
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  Speaker 3: the kind of UK post punk thing, just stuff like
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  Speaker 3: Sisters of Mercy and uh like the Fordy stuff, you
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  Speaker 3: know what I mean.
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  Speaker 2: And bands like The Birthday Party too, for sure.
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  Speaker 3: And that was kind of coloring their sound. But they're
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  Speaker 3: coming from hardcore. So when you you know, come those
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  Speaker 3: two things, you're gonna get something that stay different. But
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  Speaker 3: you know, over time, I think some people got those
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  Speaker 3: records and some people didn't. And so when you know,
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  Speaker 3: I just kept like kind of digging into their catalog
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  Speaker 3: and it was just sort of like I've called them
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: sort of like the proto everything banned for nineties alt rock,
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  Speaker 3: because their catalog really does show a very very broad
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  Speaker 3: range of what was happening in the under ground in
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  Speaker 3: both in I guess in the America and in UK
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  Speaker 3: at least in their influence. It just covers such a
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  Speaker 3: broad range of like eighties eighties underground guitar music, and
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  Speaker 3: you know that was those records were super influential for
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  Speaker 3: a lot of other artists who went on to achieve
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  Speaker 3: greater or much greater success in the following decade.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the band's origins. You write, quote it's
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  Speaker 1: debatable whether de Crouzon could have ever happened at any
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  Speaker 1: other time or in any other place besides the American
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  Speaker 1: Midwest during the nineteen eighties. So give us the wind.
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  Speaker 1: Where in the how the band comes together? If you
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  Speaker 1: could the four guys, they all grew up in the
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  Speaker 1: right place, right time.
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  Speaker 2: I'd say so. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Half of the band has origins in Rockford, Illinois. Most
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  Speaker 3: people might know that as being the hometown of Cheap Trick.
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  Speaker 3: And then the other half were from Brookfield, Wisconsin, which
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  Speaker 3: is a suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and vocalist Dan Kubinsky
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  Speaker 3: Brian Agnes where the two guys who were came from Rockford.
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  Speaker 3: They were in previously called the Stella's, and the Stella's
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  Speaker 3: moved up to Milwaukee, and you know, they quickly realized
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  Speaker 3: they didn't have a drummer when they moved there, so
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  Speaker 3: they asked their friend Keith Bramer if he knew anyone.
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  Speaker 3: He's like, well, I happened to know somebody's a really
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  Speaker 3: great drummer who was drummer Eric Tunison. So he came
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  Speaker 3: into the fold, and not long after he joined the band.
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  Speaker 3: They kind of realized that their basis at the time,
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  Speaker 3: they just weren't really they weren't really feeling it wasn't
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  Speaker 3: a good fit. And then they asked Keith to join
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  Speaker 3: the band. So then when they settle in that line up,
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  Speaker 3: not long after they changed their name from the Stella's
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  Speaker 3: to Decroitzen, and that was I believe at sometime in
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  Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one, this is when they changed the name
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  Speaker 3: to Decroitzen.
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  Speaker 1: They were into a broad range of music, which you
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  Speaker 1: did talk about. There are some they were fans of
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  Speaker 1: the classic rock bands like Kiss, cec Are, Zeppelin, ac Aerosmith.
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  Speaker 1: There's a letter that bassist Keith wrote to Circus Magazine
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  Speaker 1: that's in the book. He was a defender of Zeppelin,
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  Speaker 1: Kiss Angel, and Aerosmith. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that
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  Speaker 3: I learned, you know, like I came up listening to
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  Speaker 3: punk and hardcore. You know, I'm I'm almost forty, I'll
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  Speaker 3: be turning forty in October.
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  Speaker 2: So the classic rock.
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  Speaker 3: Thing was not really anything that I really paid much
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  Speaker 3: attention to as a young kid.
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  Speaker 2: I loved Queen. I was a huge Queen fan.
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  Speaker 3: But you know, some of the other bands maybe just
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  Speaker 3: they didn't really connect with me, And it wasn't really
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  Speaker 3: until later in life that like, especially like the glam
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  Speaker 3: stuff that.
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  Speaker 2: Really resonated with me.
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  Speaker 3: And I think they came from really liking a lot
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  Speaker 3: of seventies punk, but a lot of the classic rock
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  Speaker 3: stuff didn't resonate with me. And I think it's because
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  Speaker 3: I had other, you know, punk things to listen to.
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  Speaker 3: But the thing that I learned in researching this book
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  Speaker 3: and just reading about this period in general, is a
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  Speaker 3: lot of people who listened to punkin hardcore bands.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, they.
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  Speaker 3: Weren't listening to punk and hardcore because they were helping
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  Speaker 3: invent it. So they were listening to the heaviest music available,
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  Speaker 3: and the heaviest available was like hard rock and classic rock,
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  Speaker 3: you know. And so many people you know who are
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  Speaker 3: like kind of gen X age group, they you know,
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  Speaker 3: Kiss was a big deal for them.
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  Speaker 2: It was like.
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  Speaker 3: A early early influence because it was just like it
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  Speaker 3: was made for teenage kids. You know, they look like
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  Speaker 3: cartoon characters. You know, it's just guitar solos and flamethrowers.
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  Speaker 2: And pinball machines.
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  Speaker 3: It makes so much sense for a certain a person
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  Speaker 3: of a certain age at a certain time to be
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  Speaker 3: a kiss fan, right, So all those things were just like,
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  Speaker 3: you know, the edgiest, you know, like gnarliest thing available.
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  Speaker 3: And I think so many people who went on to
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  Speaker 3: play and punk and hardcore bands definitely did their time
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  Speaker 3: listening to you know, classic rock and them and that stuff.
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  Speaker 2: I mean around sweet and slight. But all that stuff
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  Speaker 2: is great, you know.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting. And reading a lot about grunge
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  Speaker 1: bands and how much they were influenced by early Aerosmith
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  Speaker 1: and Black Sabbath, I hear that often early Smith and
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  Speaker 1: Black Sabbath.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean the early Aerosmith records are pretty
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  Speaker 3: pretty cool. I mean, especially you know, the vocalist for
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  Speaker 3: Decoys and Day Kebinsky. He cites Stephen Tyler as a
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  Speaker 3: huge influence. When he first told me that in person,
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  Speaker 3: years before I was writing the book, I was just like,
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  Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting it, because again I didn't realize that
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  Speaker 3: some of these like people who listen who made punk
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  Speaker 3: and hardcore were listening to classic rock.
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  Speaker 2: But I was thinking about it. I was like, well,
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  Speaker 2: you think about the end of dream On, where.
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  Speaker 3: He's really pushing his voice into like screaming territory. I'm like, oh,
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  Speaker 3: that makes sense, you know, but yeah, I mean the
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: grunge bands. I mean, Kirk Kobaane is a huge fan
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  Speaker 3: of like a record like Rocks by Aerosmith.
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  Speaker 2: He loved that record.
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  Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's dirty, it's it's it's grungy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, you know, I mean the drum sound of
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  Speaker 3: that record rules. That's a great record. I'm not like
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: the world's biggest Aerosmith fan, but they have some records
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  Speaker 3: I definitely dig, for sure.
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  Speaker 1: But at some point in the mid seventies, punk rock
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  Speaker 1: enters the scene and that has a huge impact on
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  Speaker 1: the guys, especially Keith. He was the first guy in
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  Speaker 1: town to talk about punk. According to drummer Eric Tunison,
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  Speaker 1: so Keith was the guy that knew punk.
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  Speaker 3: Everyone has that friend I think who is just like
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  Speaker 3: so rabbit about music, and they're just like the one
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  Speaker 3: who's always like on the thing right as it's happening.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 3: At a certain age, I was definitely that guy with
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  Speaker 3: my friends. And you know, I still am theo that
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  Speaker 3: guy to some degree, but definitely in my teen years
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  Speaker 3: it's like I knew you know about you know, whatever
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  Speaker 3: new band or whoever's new record, like as you know
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  Speaker 3: it was just it was It was so important to me.
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  Speaker 3: It still is important to me. But there's that one
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  Speaker 3: person who's kind of like the town crier or something,
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: right like they they're the one who informs all their friends.
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  Speaker 3: They are the ones who's making the mixtapes and you
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  Speaker 3: know all that. And I think Keith is definitely that
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  Speaker 3: guy for for that friend group for sure. And he
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: you know, he was the one who got all the
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: early singles and buying you know, the Clash record on
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: Import and you know all that stuff.
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  Speaker 1: There was a point when the Stella sound evolved into
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  Speaker 1: something new, and this is around nineteen eighty one. They
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: would become known for their their speed early on. What
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: inspired that increased tempo and energy?
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  Speaker 2: I think the speed thing definitely had.
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  Speaker 3: There was a couple of records that was contributing to that,
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  Speaker 3: and I think like Group Sex by the Circle.
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  Speaker 2: Jerks was a big one for a lot of people.
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  Speaker 3: I think that that record came out pretty early on
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  Speaker 3: and it was pretty fast for the time. Also, like
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: the early Bad Brain stuff was pretty fast. Some of
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  Speaker 3: the early Dead Kennedy stuff was getting fast. So the
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  Speaker 3: temples were just being pushed and I think people were
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: just kinda.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to say like.
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  Speaker 3: Necessarily following the leader, but I just think it was
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: just like it was just the.
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  Speaker 2: Thing to do. It was like.
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  Speaker 3: That's how you that's how you made your music more intense,
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  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like the temp just made
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: it like just gnarlier and heavier. So I think that
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  Speaker 3: was like the whole It was just the thing that
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  Speaker 3: people were doing. And I'm almost like I hesitate to
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: use the word like in style, but it's just kind
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  Speaker 3: of it was just what was happening at the time,
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: you know. And it was if you if you could
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: play faster, that was like, oh, like they're fast, like
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  Speaker 3: that was that was definitely kind of a uh something
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  Speaker 3: something to admire, you know. And so you know, Ducrotzen
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  Speaker 3: were just kind of following like those bands and bands
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  Speaker 3: like da and it was just like a thing was
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: like okay, like let's just try and speed it up
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  Speaker 3: a little bit, you know, because it's it's one thing
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  Speaker 3: to be.
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  Speaker 2: Fast and slot.
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  Speaker 3: You know, that's fine, that's its own thing. I'm not
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: going to name any names. There's bands and I love that,
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: but like when you're fast and tight, that's it's different.
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  Speaker 2: That's a different thing and and and.
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  Speaker 3: That shows that like these guys practice, right, So I
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: think that was just things they were just like they
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: push the tempos a little bit, push the temples a
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: little bit. Because I have like an old live performances
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Stella has been released, you know, not a lot of
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: people have it, and there's some songs that ended up
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: on the first Decroits and record that are played at
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: like by comparison, they sound mid tempo, you know, and
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: you can kind of make out the rips a little
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: bit better because they're not played at like breakneck speed.
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  Speaker 3: But it's like it's really cool to hear and it's
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: just oh, like they were like there's you know, there's
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: early footage of the Bad Brands playing like Attitude and
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: they're like wearing suits and it's pretty mid tempo, you know.
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  Speaker 3: And then you listen to like, you know, the like
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: the Black Dots and it's a little bit faster, and
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: they listen to the Roar Cassette and it's a little
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: bit faster. And then by the time you get to
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: like Rock for Light, they've shaved on songs that's gotten
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: so bad. I don't necessarily think there were This is
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: like following other bands that we want to be like them,
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: you know, because like there's this thing that I've heard
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: other people talk about. There's an artist was a rapper,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: Fante Coleman. He's a groupole little brother. He talks about
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: like this sort of phases of being influenced. It says
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: like imitation, inspiration, and innovation, right, And imitation is like
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: I want to be like black Flag, right, And then
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: inspiration is like I am like inspired by Black Flag.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: I'm making music that's inspired by Black Flag. And then
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: innovation is like black Flag has pushed me to I mean,
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: I guess like the creativity and my love of Black
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Flag has pushed me to innovate something something else completely right,
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  Speaker 3: And a lot of people don't get to the third stage,
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  Speaker 3: you know, a lot of that.
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  Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with that.
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  Speaker 3: You can hear bands, and you can hear like, oh
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: you're kind of doing this, and you're kind of doing that,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: you know, you listen to the Strokes, and you can
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: hear television, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it doesn't really matter because they're good, right.
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  Speaker 2: But it takes a special group of people to really
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: get that.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: Third state of well, I want to kind of do
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: my own thing and de Crouzen got to that point
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: for sure.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: So han Jayasuria is the author of Don't Say Please,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: The Oral History of Decreutz, And let's talk about the
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: name change to De Kreutzen October of nineteen eighty one.
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  Speaker 1: That happened. How did they come up with that name
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  Speaker 1: and what does it mean?
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  Speaker 2: So it's from this kind of conflicting accounts.
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  Speaker 3: Some people say it's a German German language Bible, some
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: people say it was just a German book. I just
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: kind of bring them all up at the same song,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: because I've never really given a straight answer.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: But Diane who came.
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  Speaker 3: Up with that name, and then she's like, Yay, I'm
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: gonna start this band called de Crozon And then or
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: either she didn't or whatever, but they they just they
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: ended up with the name.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: It's a cool name, man, you gotta admit it's it's mysterious.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: It's it's great. It's definitely not always pronounced. If I
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: had a penny for every time someone said Mike Cruising,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: you know, d cruiser. Yeah, but it's uh, technically it's
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: the spelling doesn't translate perfectly to something, but it technically
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: is either like the sign of the Cross, or like crossing,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: like the crossing, I guess, or even to some people,
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: I guess it's like the crosses. But it fucking looks.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Great, Yes, looks great at record cover.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, if you get that, I mean,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: you don't need to think about it anymore.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Booked on Rock podcasts will be back after this. During
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: our brief intermasion, let's take a flying trip from lambda
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: fantasy to everyday life. Find the bookdown Rock website at
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: bookdn rock dot com. There you can find all the
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: back episodes of the show, the latest episode in video
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: and audio, links to all of the platforms where you
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: can listen to the podcast, plus all the social media
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and x.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Also check out the Booked on Rock blog. Find your
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: local independent bookstore, find out all the latest hot rock
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: book releases, and before you go, check out the Booked
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: on Rock online store. Pick up some Booked on Rock merch.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: It's all at booked on Rock dot com. Lyrically, let's
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: talk lyrics now. So Dan Kovinski he avoided addressing politics,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: which wasn't the norm for punk and hardcore bands. Talk
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: about his lyrics and how he preferred also listener to
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: assign whatever meaning they wished to his songs, and I
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: believe in the future albums he didn't want the lyrics printed.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, after the first record in nineteen eighty four, they
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: just consciously didn't print lyric sheets. And I think Dan
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: had said, you know, I'm paraphrasing him, but to the
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: fact of he just kind of preferred the listener just
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: you know, it hacked me songs, right, And as you know,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: the music changed. You know, the music also kind of
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: I think, just had a little bit more of like
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: an emotional heft to it. And so when you're making
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: music that's kind of that emotionally heavy, it's pretty easy
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: to you know, attach whatever meaning you want to it, right.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's something Ram did too. In the early days.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: They didn't print their lyrics sheets. And you know, people
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: always talk about how like the vocals were mixed really low,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: and Michael Stipe's voice was kind of like mumbling a
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: little bit. So you know, a lot of people didn't
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: know what the lyrics were. And in the case of
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: de Kreitzen, you didn't really know what he was saying,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: but you knew that it had some some you know,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: and had to do with how he was delivering it.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: And in some ways that's better than having a lyric sheet,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because if if you have
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: a lyrics sheet in front of you, it might not
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: resonate with you the same way that it does, you know,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: with you having to kind of come up with your
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: own meeting of this song. Sure, but early on, yeah,
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of bands.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: You know, there's great hardcore bands who.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: You know, like their their thing was just you know,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: addressing the political climate at the time, which you don't
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: need to address. And you know, like you know, all
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: the Flyers have like, you know, Reagan on it. And
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say, I'm not going to curse
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: on your podcast, but you know, like there's there's very
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: they would they would take images of Reagan and make
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: him do some pretty interesting things, hilariously interesting things. And
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: you know a lot of bands play with that imagery
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: and and and just had you know, a political agenda
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: to their It's great.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I think it was fully really.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Common at the time for punk and hardware bandsy to
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: be political, and you know, the band just kind of
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: chose to not be political lyrically, like on thely material,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: you know, the early demos and the first seven inch,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: in the first full length, I think the lyrics were
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: definitely just like kind of personal politics and just you know,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: kind of talking about things people experience at that time
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: in life, and you know, conflict amongst friends, and I
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: think there's a general just kind of feeling of like
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: disillusionment and alienation that I think a lot of people
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: felt at that time, and it was just writing from
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: that perspective.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: There was the EP in nineteen eighty two. It's titled
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Cows and Beer, and it was followed by the debut
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: self titled album in nineteen eighty four. The debut came
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: after the band return from California, and at this time
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: they're fragmented. The future of the band is uncertain or
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: burned out, bummed out, but they reform after a short time.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on this album and in particularly
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the vocals, because you say Dan style was the most
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: notable shift.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: That first record is. Yeah, it's one of the best
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: hardcore records ever made. And I think one of the
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: reasons why is it it does stand out, you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: the music at that point, they've been playing those songs
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: for so long, so they're so well rehearsed, so the
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: band is just super tight, super tight. And I think
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: in this time, you know, Dan had been singing a
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: lot and you know, figuring out how he wanted to
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: use his voice, and you know, by this point on
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: this first record, I mean, no one was really shredding
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: their vocal chords that way. People would scream for dramatic effects,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: you know, but a lot of the hardcore guys were
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: like shouting or barking. No one was like really screaming.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: It was like him and John Brannon from Negative Approach
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: was doing it. I mean, John was really doing it
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: later on with laughing hyenas, And there's kind of more
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: obscure bands like Siege who were doing it, and even
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: to lesser degree, John the singer of Void, he was
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: doing it a little bit too. But No One was
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: just like every song all the time, just screaming your
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: guys out. So it was a very different sound for
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: the time, and the production was enhanced.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: A little bit too.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: By There's a little bit of reverb an atmosphere on
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: that record that I kind of likened to the first
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: Joy Division album on Unknown Pleasures. It kind of has
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: that maybe not that drastic amount of reverb, but it's
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: definitely like a spacious sounding record. And at the time,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: a lot of punk records are pretty dry, and when
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: you add that amount of atmosphere to the vocals especially,
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: it gives us this really like haunting, tortured quality. It
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: just kind of amplifies that to you know, to me
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: that you know, later on you'd hear a lot of
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: like like Scandinavian black metal bands really do that, but
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: this is you know, quite a bit before that. So
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: it's just so ahead of its time and so good,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: you know, that first album is it's it's really an
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: incredible record.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it got the respect of other musicians. Some
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: great quotes in the book from Sound Gardens, Kim Thyle
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Thurst and more of Sonic Youth, so many people. Some
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: great quotes from the late great Steve Albani. Still I
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: still can't believe he's gone, the renowned, Yeah, the renowned
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: musician and audio engineer who produced Nirvana's in Uterol, which
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: we have to talk about where you are now in
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: relation to that album, But he admired the band's originality
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: on that first album. He said, quote, there's just nothing
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: about that de Croyton record that sounds like it's received wisdom.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: It sounds like they dreamed all that shit up on
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: their own, Like no one would have ever been taught
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: to play that way. You can only come up with
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: those things on your own. That's that says it all.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the respect that they were getting from
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: the fellow artists.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I mean a lot of this too.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: You know, as we kind of addressed earlier, like later on,
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: people kind of you know, didn't always it didn't necessarily
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: like understand those later records and they're like, oh, it's
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: so different. But you know, the thing that makes them
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: so great and makes this first record so great is
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: that they were different, right, Like they sounded pretty different
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: from other hardcore bands, and they made this really cool
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: hardcore record. And I think people, you know, fans specifically
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: some fans, I guess, the ones who maybe didn't like
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: understand the later records. They didn't stop and think like, well,
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: the reason why I like them is because they're different.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Steve Albini is a guy who I could see would
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: love that type of record because that's the way he was.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: That's the whole reason Jirvana wanted him to produce in
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: your euro because they didn't want to make something like
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: never Mind. They wanted something a little bit off the grid,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: something dangerous, something that's that's that the average producer wouldn't
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: wouldn't do. So talk about where you are, by the way,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: speaking of Steve Albini and in Utero, the reason you're
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you're you're checking in from your your vehicle right now
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: is because you just came from a very cool place
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I was.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: I was just for like a like a day and
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: some change. I was at packet In Recording Studio, which
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: is in Cannon Falls, Minnesota, which is just like four
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: thousand population, tiny town. It's about forty five minutes out
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: of the Twin Cities, and it's just uh, really small town.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: And there's this wonderful studio there. There's like and that's yeah,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: that's where Nirvana, madd Nuterro. It's where like the Wedding
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: Present recorded, and I think Live did Throwing Copper. There,
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: tons and tons and tons of great record PJ. Harvey
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: did Rid of Me there, Super Trunk recorded there. A
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: lot of indie rock bands like Unrest they recorded there.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's the list goes on and on there's
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: uh it's hums you prefer an astronaut is credited there.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: They did one song there. I think the rest of
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: that record was done elsewhere. But yeah, like tons of
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: great records in the nineties and beyond, you know, like
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: I think more recently, like ten years ago.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I think that band Normal Gene, I think they recorded there.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: So it's it's a destination, but like there's the entire
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: thing is meant for you to like live on the premises,
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: so there's like a separate living quarters that's just like
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: so not unlike it.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: It's just so distinct. It's just like spiral.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Staircases and crazy just seventies carpet and it's just like
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: there's really wonderful space that's like surrounded by like a
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: ravine all my and it's just like a really great
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: place to to just be if you're trying to like
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: focus and make music. And my friend Graham Hunt, he's
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: working on his next record right now, and he had
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: me come up there and hang out for for a
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: day and shoot photos and just you know, I mean
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: everyone there. There was like ten or eleven people who
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: were playing on that record, and they're all really good
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: friends of mine. Big parts of like the Milwaukee and
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Madison music community. So I was just hanging out with
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: them and you know, on my way home. But yeah,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: for me as a as a music fan, it's just
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: it was a no burner. I mean, I think I
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: told Graham when he said he's recording a packer er,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: It's like, can I just like go.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Up there and touch the door?
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, right, you know, because you know, I mean
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: I probably will never get the opportunity to record there
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: because you know, it's a nice studio, so I don't
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: necessarily have kind of funding to record, but you know,
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: just to be in a space like that, it's just
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: like so special, you know, to feel like it brings
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: you closer to the music you love in a way
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: that you may not always necessarily get to be. So
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: it's like, you know, some people maybe feel like going
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: to like I don't know, like Sun Studios or something
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: like that. They're into that that stuff, which like, yeah,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: that stuff's great for sure, but like I just feel
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: like when you can see the place where these records
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: were made, it's just it's just I don't know, it
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: just feels a certain way, like if you've ever toured Hitsville,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: the original Motown studio in Detroit. It's I mean, like
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: I walked in there and I got misty. I just
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: thinking about like music history was made here.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: You know. It's just it's fantastic. So you get it.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: You're oh yeah, man, you're one of us. I envy you.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: I envy you. It's a fantastic Booked on Rock podcast.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: We'll be back after this the Crekton. We'll go up
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: on back too after our short informationion. Getting back to
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Decroyz and now let's talk about the album October File
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: that came out a couple of years after the debut,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: and the band moves away from hardcore into slower, more
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: conceptual work. I don't know if I've ever heard a
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: band transition so quickly and just progress and evolve so quickly.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: It's interesting to read how the guys in the band
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: had already started to move towards that sound by the
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: time that first album was already out. Keith Bramer talks
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: about listening to Joy Division and Sushi in the Banchees
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: and Rims, Sisters of Mercy, all these referred to these
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: bands earlier. Talk about that transition and how the guys
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: saw that debut as an end to that part of
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: what the band was doing. I mean they were already
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: moving on.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they were just listening to so much music,
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: and yeah, even by the time they're making that first record,
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: they're already discovering other things. And you know, it's always
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: kind of like I don't really want to speak for
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: the band members, but you know, Keith said this other
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: so I can just repeat it.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: He's like, we just got bored, you know, like they
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: just got bored.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, like you know, anything, if
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: you do it for enough time, like yeah, you're gonna
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: get bored with it. And I think they just wanted
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: to you know, I think any musician just wants to
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: make the kind of music that they themselves will want
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: to listen to, right at least, Like that's how I
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: always approach music making, Like it's you know, I'm gonna
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: be playing it.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: It should should be fun, I should like it.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: And you know, they just wanted to play the kind
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: of music that they were into, and so they just
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: kind of but again, they weren't just like were I
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: want to be Sisters of Mercy. It's just like, well,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: what does Sisters of Mercy make me want to do?
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: What is joy Division or Echo and the Bunnymen or
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: the Birthday Party or whoever?
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: What is the cure? Like? What does that make me
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: want to do?
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: And then that's how you get these later records that
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: you know, like once you know the influence, it's like, oh,
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: I kind of kind of hear that, but like on
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: the surface, you're just like, I don'tn't really this sounds
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: like different.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: What was the response to the Star contrast to the
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: first record and this one by critics and fans.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Well, with the first record, it was just like everyone
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: loved that record.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: I mean to me, it's like, yeah, there's some changes
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: in production, but generally speaking it's it's still just.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Hardcore, right.
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: But the second record, you know, there were some people
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: who really wanted another hardcore record.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: They just didn't give them that.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: And I think some of those people kind of felt,
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: you know, I just they was upset about that. But
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: you know, for the people who maybe abandoned them because
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: they were you know, changing, slowing down, maybe become a
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: little bit more melodic, there's people who are now maybe
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: they wouldn't have liked the first record, but they liked
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: the second record. There is a little bit more melody driven, right,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: So they're starting to gain a different audience than you know,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: people who are maybe maybe not people who are into hardcore,
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: but maybe they're into something like Whoscurdu and Now and
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Who's Screw too. They were you know, evolving and moving
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: to you know, towards more melodic songwriting too, So you know,
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: I think people were just turned on to the you know,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: the newer stuff they were doing. Even though there was
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: maybe other people who you know, like the older stuff,
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: we didn't dig it as.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: Much, You're right. Quote Still, October File was only the
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: beginning of the band's journey away from hardcore, mark the
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: start of a pattern that we would see for the
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: remainder of the band's career. Next two albums produced by
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: butch Vig nineteen eighty eight Century Days and the band's
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: final album, which was nineteen ninety one Cement. He also
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: produced the nineteen eighty ninety EP Going Away. Where does
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: the band go? Sonically on those last albums.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Man, it's interesting because, yeah, things definitely got more melodic,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: but I would argue that the music also became more difficult,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: you know, like hardcore is a brace of music, and
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: it's fast, but in some ways it's kind of easy
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: to listen to, Like you can sing along the minor
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: threat songs, you know what I mean, Like they have hooks,
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: they have choruses, you know, and you know, you can
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: be fast and you can even if you're maybe not
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: into like how abrasive the vocals or whatever, you can like,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: you know, po go around and have a good time.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: It's fun, Like hardcore is fun music, you know. It's
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: like early eighties American hardcore is fun music. And I'm
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: not saying it's necessarily happy music, but it's fun. And
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: once you get darker and maybe dothier and a little
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: bit more dissonant, you can still be singing. But in
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: some ways the music can become a little bit more difficult.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: And I think what we talked about earlier, where it's
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: just like, you know, they influenced a bunch of people,
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: but they maybe never were able to get to that
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: next level. And I think one of the reasons why
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: they never made that full break into the mainstream, I
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: think a they couldn't find them major label that wanted
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: to give them the kind of creative control that they wanted.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: But b they didn't you know, labels didn't really know
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: what to do with them because they were like straddling
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: a lot of lines. They sort of were kind of metally,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: but they're kind of post punky and kind of goth,
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: and you know, especially at that time, like labels're like, well,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: who do we sell this to?
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Would it be fair to compare them to Jane's addiction
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: prior to james Addiction becoming big because metal.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I guess it's like, uh, similar ingredients
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: making two different meals.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I could see that.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: And they were a little they were a little ahead
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: of their time to where.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Ahead of their time, But at least James Addiction got
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean they had hits. I mean like
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: you know, eventually eventually the James says and didn't caught
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: steal and stuff like that.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: But you know, but at first, it was like what
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: are we going to do with this?
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: Because it's not one thing right, It's like people don't
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: know how to they don't know who to sell it
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: to or how to sell it, right, And I think
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: that was definitely part of it. But you know, the
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: you brought up earlier, like the gone Away, Yeah, like
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: that to me is a song writing achievement. Yes, that
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: to me is the best song that they wrote.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: That is a yep, say that's my favorite song.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, me too, Me too.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: It's a fantastic song, and I think it really covers
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: all the ground that that band covered, minus the super fast.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Speed of hardcore. But it's it's.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: Really kind of beautiful and melancholy, and it's in three
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: or four time, has this kind of rolling quality and
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: has wonderful There's all these different like guitar hooks and
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: then you know and Dan singing wonderfully. But even then
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: he has to take it to the screen. He has
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: to scream just for a little bit, right, So it's
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: like it's a super melodic song and then it's just
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: like it just you know, left turns of these kind
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: of really like his kind of signature tortured pain to
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: kind of scream. But it's such a wonderful song. It's
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: three minutes long, you know, in a in an alternate universe.
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: To me, that's that's a modern rock radio head.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. When I first heard it, and I was telling
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: you before we recorded that, I was I knew of
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: the band, knew the name, but really didn't listen to
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: a whole lot of the music, and as this has
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: happened so many times to this podcast. After reading a book,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: I listened to the music and I more often than
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: not fall in love with the band. And I've done
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: it with this band. And when I've heard Gone Away
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: for the first time, I'm like, how, how the fuck this?
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: How does the song just skip past so many people?
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Because it is Yeah, it's just the timing of it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: If it was a couple of years later.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I've said, like, well, you know, their
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: last album, Cement, you know, was recorded and released in
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: ninety one, and I think you know, they released Gone
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: Away as a EP because it had been a little
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: bit since they put out something new, and Touch and
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Go was like, maybe we should do et or something
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: But what's cool is, by the way, we mentioned Aerosmith
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: that Gone Away. The next track is Seasons of Whather.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: There are Seasons of Whether right, which is a great,
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: great right. It's a great cover. But I think if
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: they would have saved Gone Away for the Cement album
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: and had that been like the single off that record,
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: I think maybe it would have gotten a little bit
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: more more people would have heard it. You know, because
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: I mean the timing of Cement is so interesting because
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: right before they made Cement, Butch had finished you'd wrap
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: up work on the first Smashing Pumpkins record, Gish and
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: then either right before or maybe after or maybe like
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: he started working on Cements and then finished it later,
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: but he Butch had gone to La to Sound City
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: to go make Nevermind.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Is that crazy?
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: And so the timing of it is so it's so
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: wild right to think about.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: You know, There's there's this article that was in Hit
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: Parader in I think ninety two or early ninety two,
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: and it was one of those like, you know, forty
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: of the blah blah blahs to blah blah blah, right,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: and I think it was like forty alternative metal bands
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: to watch in the year ninety two or something like that,
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: and on the front page Smashing Pumpkins, Afghan Whigs to Kretzin,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: you know, and it's like, so, I.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Mean, they were right there, you know. Yeah, Like, you know, I.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: Think maybe one of the reasons why they didn't break
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: through is you know, maybe labels didn't know what to
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: do with them, but also like they were maybe a
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: little bit too difficult to break into the mainstream, you
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: know records.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: You said in the book wanted to sign them right
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: after they broke up.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: After they had split. Myke Getter, who went on to
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: sign so many great bands. Myke Getter is such a
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: rad dude and has done so much awesome stuff. I mean,
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: he signed he ended up signing Jawbox to Atlantic and
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: signing a lot of great bands from the underground and
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: you know, giving them the resources to make you know,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: these kind of bigger records. And I mean, I love
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: that record Jawbox made for Atlantic as a savory to
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: me again, should have been a top forty hit.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know why I wasn't.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: In my universe, that is a top forty hit, you know,
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: but yeah's just a little bit too late. And you
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: know there, I of course, like there is a little
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: bit of like the what if factor in that book,
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: like well what if?
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, we'll never know.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: But you know, I think if anything, they maybe would
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: sign a major label, make a record that they wanted
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: to make, and I mean maybe more people would have
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: heard it, but not enough to please the major label.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Booked on rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna need some flyers and uh set a thirty
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: W eight ball bearings.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Black Fred gets here before I'm back, you.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Can tell him to start without me.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: Hell you need ball bearings. Fo Oh, come on, guys,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Hey, it's all ball bearings nowadays. Hey, guys, thanks so
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast. If
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
• 36:41
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• 36:43
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• 36:46
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• 36:49
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• 36:52
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• 36:54
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• 37:02
  Speaker 1: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: to the show. Here's the quote from Vig in the
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: book about when he first saw the band. This says
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: it all. It was psychedelic rock, it was punk, it
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: was almost metal at points, and yet they had this
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: great pop sensibility to their songs as well. So he
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: saw something there. He saw what he saw in Nirvana.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: One hundred percent.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, Butcher Vig is a pop guy through and through,
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: and he calls himself with sub sub proclaimed pop geek
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: is what he says, and so I mean he and
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: he's the guy to bring hooks out at Peopball, you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: I mean the jump from Bleach to Nevermind is a
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: very big jump.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Obviously the production played a big role in it.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: And obviously there's not that many songs on Bleach that
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: are as hooky as the stuff on never Mind, but
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: you know, Butcher really brought out those melodic elements. And
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: then Andy Wallace, you know, who's known for mixing like Slayer,
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: made it just sound and super heavy. So then you
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: have these really heavy pop songs and it appeals to
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: the aggressive music crowd, but it also appeals to people
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: who maybe have never heard Sonic Youth or Dinosaur Junior
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: or whoever else. Right, And you know, had they been
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: able to make another record with Butch, who knows, but
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: you know, we'll never know.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they broke up in ninety two.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: They broke up in ninety two, Vic but Vig.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Says he told you that, yeah, there were internal battles
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: with some conflict going on there while they were recording Cement,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: but he didn't think they were going to break up.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: What led to the breakup, it's nothing really interesting.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: They just they got to the point where there's like,
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: you know, we're we're playing, you know, we're touring all
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: the time, and we're touring more than we're at home.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: You know, the audiences aren't necessarily getting any bigger. In
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: some cases, maybe they're getting a little bit smaller, you know,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: and they just I think they just felt.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, like we don't really know like where.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: We fit in a sense, like they would played a
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: nicer sized audience when you know, Bansic Sonic Youth could
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: take them out of the road, but then when they
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: would go out on their own again, it'd be like
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: we all over playing to you know, one hundred people
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: on hundred fifty people.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: My feeling is listening to the music and seeing where
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: music went and seeing how big Nirvana got. If you
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: put them out on the road, open for Nirvana for
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: a little while, there build up that following next thing.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: You know, I think they're headlining their own gigs mtvs
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: picking up on them radios. Modern rock radio is getting big.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: You know, wait a year or two.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: I think at that point, like being affiliated with Nirvana
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: was definitely helpful. You know, he helped the Melvins get signed,
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: and you know, like you know, people were now turned
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: onto bands like the Beans of the Wipers or whatever else.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: But you know, and then even like you know, they.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Took Jawbreaker on on tour for what ten days, and
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: that resulted in Jawbreaker becoming like a you know, the
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: quorded by major labels, you know, the sort of unsignable band.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: Eventually you know, they signed to a major label, right,
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: but who's to say? You know, I know, Kurt Cobain
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: was a fan. He he he wrote about He mentions
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: them in his journals and it wasn't it wasn't like
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: in one of those lists, but he was. It was
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: like a letter he wrote some buzz from the Melbyns
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: and it was or maybe a letter he didn't send
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: a buzz, I don't know, but there was definitely something
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: in there where he said, have you heard the new
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: dey Kreitzen album? So it was at least the band
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: he was aware of and I think. I mean, he
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: was a Kurt was a huge touching records guy, right.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: He loved Big Black and Scratch Acid and all that stuff.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: So I'm sure he at least knew those records. I'm
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: it's pretty safe to say he liked them. But I can't,
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: you know, make that assumption. I know Dave Girl is
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: a big fan for sure, but you know, I'd say,
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: if you were into touch and go bands at that time,
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: I think most people who were around for that era
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: of touch and go they like Decroitson.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Well, this book will get some exposure for the band
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: as well, don't say please the Oral History of De
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Creuzen and it's out now. You can find it wherever
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: books are sold and look forward at your nearest bookstore.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Go to bookdown rock dot com to find your nearest
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: independent bookstore. And where could people find you online? To
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: hunh uh? Yeah?
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: So you can follow me me on Instagram. I have
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: an Instagram page for the book. It's just at Decroitzen
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: book and that's kind of just where I post just
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: like just stuff about the band and then just like
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: updates in terms of like events and stuff that I'm
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: doing for the book and that's kind of the best
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: way to figure out, you know, everything that's you know,
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: going on with this book right now.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: So Han, thanks man, thanks for just sneaking in this
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: interview coming back from that very cool trip to a
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: part of rock and roll history.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: So I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: This is wonderful, So thank you so much for taking
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: the time to talk to me.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: And you're doing me a favor here.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Cool. That's it. It's in the books.