Latest / The Smart Cookies podcast / Reimagining the Black Death with Plague Historian dr. John Aberth

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Reimagining the Black Death with Plague Historian dr. John Aberth · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 188 00:04:30,609 --> 00:04:33,694 [zaza]: dr John Aberth is a medieval historian author and professor 189 00:04:33,864 --> 00:04:33,946 [john_aberth]: ah 190 00:04:34,094 --> 00:04:35,597 [zaza]: currently residing in vermont 191 00:04:37,059 --> 00:04:37,080 [john_aberth]: m 192 00:04:37,139 --> 00:04:41,146 [zaza]: yeah i hope i pronounced your name correctly this time with my hero 193 00:04:41,049 --> 00:04:41,190 [john_aberth]: yep 194 00:04:41,226 --> 00:04:41,927 [zaza]: trashy ing 195 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:43,607 [john_aberth]: uh 196 00:04:42,849 --> 00:04:45,133 [zaza]: he received his ma in 197 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:45,660 [john_aberth]: huh 198 00:04:45,213 --> 00:04:50,221 [zaza]: medieval studies from the university of lids and his ph d and medieval history 199 00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:50,616 [john_aberth]: yeah 200 00:04:50,321 --> 00:04:53,206 [zaza]: from the university of cambridge if i'm not mistaken 201 00:04:53,788 --> 00:04:53,929 [john_aberth]: yep 202 00:04:54,929 --> 00:04:55,690 [zaza]: dr aberth 203 00:04:55,860 --> 00:04:56,244 [john_aberth]: oh 204 00:04:56,010 --> 00:04:58,234 [zaza]: is the author of more than ten books 205 00:04:58,053 --> 00:04:58,215 [john_aberth]: yeah 206 00:04:58,474 --> 00:05:00,316 [zaza]: is it on medieval history focusing 207 00:05:00,031 --> 00:05:02,423 [john_aberth]: ten books all together yeah 208 00:05:01,358 --> 00:05:04,183 [zaza]: ten books exactly ten books focusing mostly 209 00:05:04,290 --> 00:05:04,551 [john_aberth]: yeah 210 00:05:04,343 --> 00:05:06,426 [zaza]: on the black death of the late middle 211 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:06,687 [john_aberth]: oh 212 00:05:06,587 --> 00:05:09,512 [zaza]: ages which is also what we're going to be talking about 213 00:05:09,510 --> 00:05:09,530 [john_aberth]: m 214 00:05:09,912 --> 00:05:10,193 [zaza]: today 215 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:10,820 [john_aberth]: m 216 00:05:10,834 --> 00:05:13,098 [zaza]: i am super super stoked to have you 217 00:05:13,063 --> 00:05:13,245 [john_aberth]: yeah 218 00:05:13,198 --> 00:05:14,521 [zaza]: here m 219 00:05:14,559 --> 00:05:14,580 [john_aberth]: m 220 00:05:15,002 --> 00:05:15,423 [zaza]: r a berth 221 00:05:15,404 --> 00:05:15,424 [john_aberth]: a 222 00:05:15,603 --> 00:05:16,225 [zaza]: welcome to Eurotrash 223 00:05:16,363 --> 00:05:16,505 [john_aberth]: eh 224 00:05:16,405 --> 00:05:16,666 [zaza]: trash 225 00:05:17,581 --> 00:05:18,385 [john_aberth]: thank you for having me 226 00:05:19,868 --> 00:05:23,875 [zaza]: um now before we have a lot of ground to cover so but before 227 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:23,861 [john_aberth]: oh 228 00:05:24,136 --> 00:05:25,858 [zaza]: we go into the origins of the 229 00:05:25,770 --> 00:05:25,790 [john_aberth]: m 230 00:05:25,898 --> 00:05:28,623 [zaza]: black death could we set the stage a little 231 00:05:28,530 --> 00:05:28,833 [john_aberth]: oh 232 00:05:28,663 --> 00:05:34,032 [zaza]: bit what does europe look like in ten forty seven i believe it was just 233 00:05:34,093 --> 00:05:38,160 [zaza]: before the plague strikes which are the major political 234 00:05:38,340 --> 00:05:39,180 [john_aberth]: yeah 235 00:05:38,381 --> 00:05:41,166 [zaza]: forces that kind of control the continent 236 00:05:41,289 --> 00:05:51,907 [john_aberth]: m um well the you know europe in thirteen forty seven was um you know 237 00:05:51,987 --> 00:05:57,194 [john_aberth]: there was the hundred years war was going on had been going on for about 238 00:05:57,254 --> 00:06:07,345 [john_aberth]: ten years between england and france and um now in central europe in germany for 239 00:06:07,425 --> 00:06:13,756 [john_aberth]: example the german empire or the german kingdom i should say this was you know 240 00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:21,569 [john_aberth]: politically fragmented it was you had a holy roman emperor but it was basically cities 241 00:06:22,049 --> 00:06:27,398 [john_aberth]: had a lot of autonomy and also the archbishops of german you had a lot 242 00:06:27,438 --> 00:06:33,308 [john_aberth]: of our no my in terms of their political control and that was a factor 243 00:06:33,869 --> 00:06:40,741 [john_aberth]: you know what happened during the black death um and you know eastern europe poland 244 00:06:40,821 --> 00:06:45,869 [john_aberth]: for example the baltic states these were kind of the frontiers of europe at 245 00:06:45,888 --> 00:06:46,131 [zaza]: oh 246 00:06:45,909 --> 00:06:54,544 [john_aberth]: the time they had seen for example the two teutonic crusade um uh you know 247 00:06:54,604 --> 00:07:00,033 [john_aberth]: the crusade of the teutonic nights that tried to pacify this region in the thirteenth 248 00:07:00,113 --> 00:07:06,103 [john_aberth]: century you know europe was coming off a big period of expand and prior to 249 00:07:06,143 --> 00:07:14,717 [john_aberth]: this population had been growing steadily you know throughout the twelve and thirteen centuries you 250 00:07:14,777 --> 00:07:19,445 [john_aberth]: know the weather was very good at this time this is known as the warm 251 00:07:19,308 --> 00:07:19,596 [zaza]: oh 252 00:07:20,307 --> 00:07:24,654 [john_aberth]: warm anomaly or the the warm climate of the time so grown 253 00:07:24,588 --> 00:07:24,854 [zaza]: oh 254 00:07:24,834 --> 00:07:31,605 [john_aberth]: seasons were longer so you know things were pretty good europe is pretty prosperous up 255 00:07:31,686 --> 00:07:38,577 [john_aberth]: until this time but about thirteen hundred you know most scholars would agree that things 256 00:07:38,677 --> 00:07:44,487 [john_aberth]: start to turn or two change um europe enters what is called a little ice 257 00:07:44,647 --> 00:07:51,238 [john_aberth]: age where the weather gets colder and much wetter and so you know grown seasons 258 00:07:51,298 --> 00:07:58,731 [john_aberth]: begin to contract the population at least steadies off it doesn't grow any more you 259 00:07:58,791 --> 00:08:05,362 [john_aberth]: know scholars call you know talk about a deadlock or stale mate between the population 260 00:08:05,442 --> 00:08:10,390 [john_aberth]: and the capacity to feed that population so europe had pretty much reached its limit 261 00:08:10,450 --> 00:08:15,158 [john_aberth]: or capacity in terms of how much people it could support by medieval 262 00:08:14,978 --> 00:08:15,339 [zaza]: so that's 263 00:08:15,238 --> 00:08:15,799 [john_aberth]: agriculture 264 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:17,585 [zaza]: the beginning of the fourteenth century right 265 00:08:18,270 --> 00:08:18,490 [john_aberth]: right 266 00:08:19,088 --> 00:08:19,231 [zaza]: yeah 267 00:08:19,612 --> 00:08:26,383 [john_aberth]: so you know population was out of stale made you know europe was beginning to 268 00:08:27,345 --> 00:08:31,432 [john_aberth]: you know and to the limit of what it could say port and how how 269 00:08:31,552 --> 00:08:38,263 [john_aberth]: much it could grow and the plague of course took care of that ending that 270 00:08:38,383 --> 00:08:42,030 [john_aberth]: they all made in favor of you know less lower popular 271 00:08:43,859 --> 00:08:46,343 [zaza]: if we stay here a little bit before the play comes 272 00:08:46,681 --> 00:08:46,742 [john_aberth]: m 273 00:08:46,724 --> 00:08:48,727 [zaza]: at this moment in thirteen forty seven 274 00:08:48,579 --> 00:08:48,980 [john_aberth]: m m 275 00:08:49,709 --> 00:08:49,929 [zaza]: and if 276 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:50,000 [john_aberth]: m 277 00:08:49,989 --> 00:08:51,051 [zaza]: we descend a little 278 00:08:50,910 --> 00:08:51,131 [john_aberth]: oh 279 00:08:51,091 --> 00:08:55,278 [zaza]: bit what does life look like for the common folk at that time and 280 00:08:55,363 --> 00:08:56,280 [john_aberth]: yeah 281 00:08:55,418 --> 00:08:59,946 [zaza]: and also what is the average life expect expectancy if you survive infancy 282 00:09:01,940 --> 00:09:07,229 [john_aberth]: um well before the black death um you know this this has actually been measured 283 00:09:08,391 --> 00:09:14,922 [john_aberth]: through obituary list in for three english monasteries during the fifteenth jury and they found 284 00:09:14,982 --> 00:09:19,890 [john_aberth]: that at the beginning of the fifteenth century for example life expectancy was about thirty 285 00:09:19,930 --> 00:09:23,917 [john_aberth]: years of age if you were twenty five years old in other words you could 286 00:09:23,957 --> 00:09:27,323 [john_aberth]: expect to at least live five more years and 287 00:09:27,228 --> 00:09:27,448 [zaza]: yeah 288 00:09:27,463 --> 00:09:32,899 [john_aberth]: you know your life expectancy was about thirty years old at that time but then 289 00:09:33,482 --> 00:09:33,763 [john_aberth]: by the 290 00:09:33,808 --> 00:09:33,868 [zaza]: so 291 00:09:33,904 --> 00:09:34,024 [john_aberth]: end 292 00:09:33,948 --> 00:09:34,128 [zaza]: that's 293 00:09:34,104 --> 00:09:34,285 [john_aberth]: of the 294 00:09:34,308 --> 00:09:34,508 [zaza]: that's 295 00:09:34,345 --> 00:09:34,747 [john_aberth]: fifteenth 296 00:09:35,469 --> 00:09:37,992 [zaza]: after i mean if you survived like 297 00:09:38,041 --> 00:09:38,223 [john_aberth]: yeah 298 00:09:38,092 --> 00:09:39,554 [zaza]: infancy that was 299 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:39,580 [john_aberth]: yeah 300 00:09:40,194 --> 00:09:40,835 [zaza]: you could expect 301 00:09:40,705 --> 00:09:40,886 [john_aberth]: yeah 302 00:09:40,895 --> 00:09:41,956 [zaza]: to live about thirty 303 00:09:41,731 --> 00:09:41,893 [john_aberth]: yeah 304 00:09:42,016 --> 00:09:42,777 [zaza]: years and that was it 305 00:09:43,611 --> 00:09:47,237 [john_aberth]: right well you have to remember there was a very high in for mortality rate 306 00:09:47,678 --> 00:09:48,519 [john_aberth]: so that skees 307 00:09:48,230 --> 00:09:48,918 [zaza]: hm 308 00:09:48,579 --> 00:09:54,148 [john_aberth]: a lot of the lot of the figures but if you survive childhood 309 00:09:53,658 --> 00:09:53,678 [zaza]: m 310 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,603 [john_aberth]: know the average was about thirty years old but you 311 00:09:57,589 --> 00:09:57,811 [zaza]: okay 312 00:09:57,623 --> 00:10:00,427 [john_aberth]: know there was a lot of variability within that of course 313 00:10:00,538 --> 00:10:04,244 [zaza]: but what was what was the most likely going to kill you in the fourteenth 314 00:10:04,344 --> 00:10:10,134 [zaza]: century like europe was a tooth absess child birth if you're a woman may be 315 00:10:10,194 --> 00:10:11,676 [zaza]: a violent both of diarrhea 316 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:12,482 [john_aberth]: uh 317 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:12,861 [zaza]: or is 318 00:10:12,865 --> 00:10:13,530 [john_aberth]: huh 319 00:10:12,962 --> 00:10:14,753 [zaza]: it like a violence and war 320 00:10:16,071 --> 00:10:21,500 [john_aberth]: um well i mean it's hard to it's hard to say but certainly there was 321 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:24,765 [john_aberth]: always a background of disease in medieval 322 00:10:24,438 --> 00:10:25,368 [zaza]: yeah 323 00:10:24,845 --> 00:10:31,757 [john_aberth]: society you had you know any number ills that could strike you down and you 324 00:10:31,817 --> 00:10:36,364 [john_aberth]: could have chronic ills that you mentioned such as a toothache for example or a 325 00:10:36,444 --> 00:10:42,974 [john_aberth]: wound that simply never healed properly um h but you know there was also certainly 326 00:10:44,516 --> 00:10:50,895 [john_aberth]: you know diseases before the plague arrived uh that could that could kill you and 327 00:10:52,558 --> 00:10:55,863 [john_aberth]: you know wars yeah there was always 328 00:10:56,208 --> 00:10:56,409 [zaza]: yeah 329 00:10:56,464 --> 00:11:00,331 [john_aberth]: local wars or national wars that took their tole 330 00:11:00,590 --> 00:11:00,672 [zaza]: ah 331 00:11:00,932 --> 00:11:07,843 [john_aberth]: but you know those wars didn't really affect the general population so much unless they 332 00:11:07,903 --> 00:11:08,064 [john_aberth]: were 333 00:11:08,221 --> 00:11:08,748 [zaza]: hm 334 00:11:08,905 --> 00:11:14,675 [john_aberth]: taking place where the war was was kated um you know for example in france 335 00:11:14,795 --> 00:11:18,501 [john_aberth]: this the scene of the hundred years war yeah there could be a lot of 336 00:11:18,561 --> 00:11:23,710 [john_aberth]: devastation where the war occurred you know they were there was something called severs is 337 00:11:23,770 --> 00:11:28,398 [john_aberth]: there armed raids that the english conducted in the french countryside and that could cause 338 00:11:28,999 --> 00:11:34,989 [john_aberth]: starvation and you know hunger and famine and so forth so that could have an 339 00:11:35,049 --> 00:11:36,130 [john_aberth]: impact i was local 340 00:11:37,112 --> 00:11:37,152 [zaza]: hm 341 00:11:37,292 --> 00:11:42,481 [john_aberth]: and in terms of general society you know you had you did have an array 342 00:11:42,601 --> 00:11:50,292 [john_aberth]: of diseases but nothing that affected wide swaths the population like the black death did 343 00:11:50,373 --> 00:11:55,839 [john_aberth]: the black death was really you know the first pandemic in medieval society i would 344 00:11:55,919 --> 00:11:56,059 [john_aberth]: say 345 00:11:56,301 --> 00:11:56,684 [zaza]: interesting 346 00:11:57,111 --> 00:11:57,552 [john_aberth]: um you know 347 00:11:57,529 --> 00:11:58,013 [zaza]: but you you 348 00:11:58,133 --> 00:12:00,780 [john_aberth]: the first first pandemic of plague occurred in the early 349 00:12:00,618 --> 00:12:01,398 [zaza]: oh 350 00:12:00,860 --> 00:12:03,988 [john_aberth]: middle ages beginning in five forty one so 351 00:12:04,238 --> 00:12:08,404 [zaza]: you said that there were some other diseases that could kill you before the black 352 00:12:08,464 --> 00:12:08,725 [zaza]: plague 353 00:12:08,483 --> 00:12:09,120 [john_aberth]: okay 354 00:12:09,225 --> 00:12:09,346 [zaza]: what 355 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:09,502 [john_aberth]: sure 356 00:12:09,386 --> 00:12:09,966 [zaza]: were some of those 357 00:12:10,830 --> 00:12:13,313 [john_aberth]: you know discentary you know that 358 00:12:13,348 --> 00:12:13,770 [zaza]: diarea 359 00:12:13,393 --> 00:12:14,094 [john_aberth]: killed henry the 360 00:12:14,032 --> 00:12:14,213 [zaza]: right 361 00:12:14,154 --> 00:12:16,578 [john_aberth]: fifth what is that diario 362 00:12:16,499 --> 00:12:16,739 [zaza]: is that 363 00:12:16,658 --> 00:12:17,178 [john_aberth]: yeah i mean 364 00:12:17,401 --> 00:12:17,661 [zaza]: a yeah 365 00:12:18,170 --> 00:12:20,494 [john_aberth]: yeah just flux of the bowels as they called 366 00:12:20,328 --> 00:12:20,589 [zaza]: don't want 367 00:12:20,554 --> 00:12:20,614 [john_aberth]: it 368 00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:21,692 [zaza]: to be too graphic but yeah 369 00:12:22,377 --> 00:12:30,394 [john_aberth]: but you know you know you could have you know any you know tumor or 370 00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:38,340 [john_aberth]: uh you know you could have you know i guess the there might be something 371 00:12:38,401 --> 00:12:40,103 [john_aberth]: akin to influenza or 372 00:12:40,329 --> 00:12:40,430 [zaza]: oh 373 00:12:40,885 --> 00:12:44,350 [john_aberth]: uh you know there might be respiratory these is 374 00:12:45,183 --> 00:12:45,858 [zaza]: hm 375 00:12:45,192 --> 00:12:50,841 [john_aberth]: um you know there was you know the doctors in their case studies you can 376 00:12:51,262 --> 00:12:56,812 [john_aberth]: can read about various kinds of ills that would affect individual patients but again there 377 00:12:56,778 --> 00:12:56,901 [zaza]: ye 378 00:12:56,832 --> 00:13:00,258 [john_aberth]: was nothing that was so general to the population like the 379 00:13:00,214 --> 00:13:00,828 [zaza]: hm 380 00:13:00,319 --> 00:13:06,300 [john_aberth]: black death i mean something that affected all ages and conditions of people like the 381 00:13:06,340 --> 00:13:06,841 [john_aberth]: black death 382 00:13:06,768 --> 00:13:07,548 [zaza]: yeah 383 00:13:07,102 --> 00:13:12,531 [john_aberth]: did but you know you had individual diseases you had something called gout which you 384 00:13:12,551 --> 00:13:18,321 [john_aberth]: know was the swelling of the foot basically um you know so you had visual 385 00:13:17,958 --> 00:13:18,139 [zaza]: yeah 386 00:13:18,661 --> 00:13:25,176 [john_aberth]: diseases um that could afflict people but nothing that was so general to the population 387 00:13:25,577 --> 00:13:25,838 [john_aberth]: i would 388 00:13:25,818 --> 00:13:25,858 [zaza]: h 389 00:13:25,898 --> 00:13:26,058 [john_aberth]: say 390 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,763 [zaza]: m i saw a somewhat related 391 00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:28,731 [john_aberth]: oh 392 00:13:28,884 --> 00:13:31,629 [zaza]: mem recently i want to get your opinion on it 393 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:32,281 [john_aberth]: oh 394 00:13:32,771 --> 00:13:35,956 [zaza]: et me quickly look it up on my phone i thought it was quite amusing 395 00:13:38,293 --> 00:13:44,231 [zaza]: i think i saved it yeah here it is it's a drawing of a couple 396 00:13:44,291 --> 00:13:47,998 [zaza]: of medieval peasants working in the fields and the text 397 00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:49,080 [john_aberth]: oh 398 00:13:48,178 --> 00:13:53,787 [zaza]: says medieval peasants worked only about a hundred and fifty days in a year the 399 00:13:54,208 --> 00:13:55,711 [zaza]: believed it was more important 400 00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:56,460 [john_aberth]: oh 401 00:13:55,852 --> 00:13:58,918 [zaza]: to keep them happy with frequent mandatory holidays 402 00:13:58,551 --> 00:13:58,754 [john_aberth]: yeah 403 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,043 [zaza]: you have less holidays 404 00:14:01,149 --> 00:14:01,170 [john_aberth]: m 405 00:14:01,343 --> 00:14:03,672 [zaza]: than a medieval peasant um 406 00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:04,311 [john_aberth]: uh 407 00:14:04,467 --> 00:14:05,348 [zaza]: m could we say 408 00:14:05,359 --> 00:14:05,400 [john_aberth]: uh 409 00:14:05,408 --> 00:14:05,528 [zaza]: that 410 00:14:05,460 --> 00:14:05,480 [john_aberth]: m 411 00:14:05,628 --> 00:14:08,711 [zaza]: life was if that's true could we say that life was at least in some 412 00:14:08,772 --> 00:14:09,032 [zaza]: ways 413 00:14:08,850 --> 00:14:08,870 [john_aberth]: m 414 00:14:09,272 --> 00:14:12,535 [zaza]: kind of more chill back then if we forget the disease in 415 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:12,561 [john_aberth]: m 416 00:14:12,635 --> 00:14:15,367 [zaza]: war or is that not accurate 417 00:14:15,151 --> 00:14:21,101 [john_aberth]: well it's difficult to measure how how much or how often people worked during the 418 00:14:21,141 --> 00:14:21,902 [john_aberth]: middle ages they 419 00:14:22,130 --> 00:14:22,171 [zaza]: m 420 00:14:22,883 --> 00:14:23,885 [john_aberth]: you know a lot 421 00:14:23,847 --> 00:14:24,169 [zaza]: m oh 422 00:14:23,965 --> 00:14:29,014 [john_aberth]: of it was seasonal work you know for exampl during harvest time which was during 423 00:14:28,818 --> 00:14:28,838 [zaza]: m 424 00:14:29,074 --> 00:14:33,942 [john_aberth]: the summer late summer and early autumn you know people worked very hard to bring 425 00:14:34,002 --> 00:14:38,449 [john_aberth]: in the crops and then the rest of the year they would not have that 426 00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:44,315 [john_aberth]: urgency so a lot of the work was especially agricultural work which the peasants performed 427 00:14:45,035 --> 00:14:49,199 [john_aberth]: was seasonal work so you have to remember that to follow the seasons of the 428 00:14:49,259 --> 00:14:52,784 [john_aberth]: year um you know which is you know 429 00:14:52,878 --> 00:14:53,020 [zaza]: yeah 430 00:14:52,904 --> 00:14:56,490 [john_aberth]: quite different from a lot of the work that we perform in the modern age 431 00:14:57,852 --> 00:15:01,939 [john_aberth]: so it was very much tied to the land tied to the rhythms of the 432 00:15:01,979 --> 00:15:07,789 [john_aberth]: c and um so you know i mean it's sort of hard to compare it 433 00:15:08,089 --> 00:15:13,599 [john_aberth]: because you know people could work quite intensely quite hard at certain seasons of the 434 00:15:13,659 --> 00:15:16,560 [john_aberth]: year not work not so hard and 435 00:15:16,548 --> 00:15:16,749 [zaza]: okay 436 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,343 [john_aberth]: certainly they had a lot of religious holidays of course but i think 437 00:15:20,358 --> 00:15:21,348 [zaza]: yeah 438 00:15:20,423 --> 00:15:24,507 [john_aberth]: it is estimated that you know one of the interesting things that came out of 439 00:15:24,547 --> 00:15:30,124 [john_aberth]: the black death is that they were so few were people available for work this 440 00:15:30,204 --> 00:15:36,034 [john_aberth]: is called the supply side shock that wasn't that supply of labor so the their 441 00:15:36,114 --> 00:15:41,563 [john_aberth]: labor became much more valuable so they were able work less than before because 442 00:15:41,651 --> 00:15:42,378 [zaza]: hm 443 00:15:42,144 --> 00:15:47,934 [john_aberth]: they could earn the same amount in less time because the wages that were that 444 00:15:47,994 --> 00:15:48,475 [john_aberth]: much higher 445 00:15:49,138 --> 00:15:49,339 [zaza]: okay 446 00:15:49,296 --> 00:15:54,430 [john_aberth]: as a result of the black death so they you know they actually could you 447 00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:56,577 [john_aberth]: know perhaps work half the year 448 00:15:57,358 --> 00:15:59,428 [zaza]: kind of leverage a little bit their position then 449 00:15:59,513 --> 00:16:00,695 [john_aberth]: yeah that's right they could work 450 00:16:00,553 --> 00:16:00,754 [zaza]: okay 451 00:16:00,775 --> 00:16:01,356 [john_aberth]: half the year 452 00:16:01,818 --> 00:16:01,980 [zaza]: yeah 453 00:16:01,877 --> 00:16:03,399 [john_aberth]: which is what the cartoon is saying 454 00:16:04,048 --> 00:16:04,289 [zaza]: okay 455 00:16:04,221 --> 00:16:06,985 [john_aberth]: they could work you know that's three hundred and sixty days 456 00:16:07,019 --> 00:16:07,260 [zaza]: yeah 457 00:16:07,045 --> 00:16:10,092 [john_aberth]: of the year they could work half the year and earn 458 00:16:09,918 --> 00:16:11,023 [zaza]: yeah okay 459 00:16:10,995 --> 00:16:12,662 [john_aberth]: as much as if they worked like two 460 00:16:12,688 --> 00:16:12,928 [zaza]: okay 461 00:16:12,742 --> 00:16:13,525 [john_aberth]: under and sixty days 462 00:16:13,449 --> 00:16:13,529 [zaza]: so 463 00:16:13,605 --> 00:16:13,926 [john_aberth]: of the year 464 00:16:13,870 --> 00:16:17,155 [zaza]: so this mem kind of is you know connected 465 00:16:17,130 --> 00:16:17,150 [john_aberth]: m 466 00:16:17,275 --> 00:16:19,739 [zaza]: to the after the black plague already 467 00:16:19,531 --> 00:16:20,012 [john_aberth]: that's really 468 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:20,120 [zaza]: occurred 469 00:16:20,133 --> 00:16:20,373 [john_aberth]: post 470 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:20,461 [zaza]: kind of 471 00:16:20,494 --> 00:16:20,915 [john_aberth]: plague 472 00:16:21,342 --> 00:16:21,522 [zaza]: okay 473 00:16:21,456 --> 00:16:21,657 [john_aberth]: yeah 474 00:16:21,623 --> 00:16:21,823 [zaza]: post 475 00:16:21,757 --> 00:16:21,978 [john_aberth]: that's 476 00:16:21,943 --> 00:16:22,805 [zaza]: play exactly 477 00:16:23,453 --> 00:16:23,975 [john_aberth]: yeah so 478 00:16:23,926 --> 00:16:24,087 [zaza]: oka 479 00:16:24,055 --> 00:16:24,276 [john_aberth]: that's 480 00:16:24,147 --> 00:16:27,072 [zaza]: but if we go if we go a little bit back to the origins 481 00:16:27,048 --> 00:16:27,069 [john_aberth]: a 482 00:16:27,813 --> 00:16:32,861 [zaza]: do we know anything about how the plague entered first entered europe i remember reading 483 00:16:32,941 --> 00:16:36,087 [zaza]: a while back that there was a siege somewhere in the middle east 484 00:16:35,919 --> 00:16:35,940 [john_aberth]: m 485 00:16:36,207 --> 00:16:38,831 [zaza]: during which the golden horde was throwing 486 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:38,742 [john_aberth]: yeah 487 00:16:38,992 --> 00:16:43,960 [zaza]: infected corpses over the city walls where a couple of genuine merchants were trading at 488 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,427 [zaza]: the time and that when they escaped they brought the disease to italy is that 489 00:16:48,729 --> 00:16:52,085 [zaza]: likely scenario because it sounds like a movie a little bit 490 00:16:52,621 --> 00:16:57,329 [john_aberth]: yeah yeah that's a that's a famous story from the chronicle of gabriel de muss 491 00:16:58,170 --> 00:17:04,701 [john_aberth]: chronicler from piacenza in italy and he he tells a story of how the mongols 492 00:17:04,781 --> 00:17:10,531 [john_aberth]: were besieging the town of kava there was a war between the geno and the 493 00:17:10,912 --> 00:17:18,726 [john_aberth]: city of genoa which was a maritime power controlled the city of caffa which is 494 00:17:18,806 --> 00:17:26,901 [john_aberth]: now theodosia on the north coast of the black sea and the the mongols 495 00:17:26,547 --> 00:17:26,568 [zaza]: m 496 00:17:26,961 --> 00:17:32,089 [john_aberth]: were besieging the genuines and then they got the plague so they decided to catapult 497 00:17:32,169 --> 00:17:38,139 [john_aberth]: their play corpses into the town to give the disease to the besieged to the 498 00:17:38,180 --> 00:17:44,710 [john_aberth]: defenders and they apparently got the plague when you know they began jumping these bodies 499 00:17:44,771 --> 00:17:48,817 [john_aberth]: into the water and it poisoned the water and that gave them the disease but 500 00:17:48,897 --> 00:17:56,594 [john_aberth]: anyway that's it apocryphal story probably that may have happened but you know i've actually 501 00:17:57,014 --> 00:17:57,695 [john_aberth]: talked about that 502 00:17:57,558 --> 00:17:57,739 [zaza]: oh 503 00:17:58,216 --> 00:17:58,757 [john_aberth]: in my book 504 00:17:59,718 --> 00:18:00,001 [zaza]: oh 505 00:17:59,959 --> 00:18:01,382 [john_aberth]: you know the belief 506 00:18:01,638 --> 00:18:02,448 [zaza]: yeah 507 00:18:01,662 --> 00:18:02,463 [john_aberth]: in the middle ages 508 00:18:02,508 --> 00:18:02,528 [zaza]: m 509 00:18:03,064 --> 00:18:04,467 [john_aberth]: was that plague was spread 510 00:18:04,189 --> 00:18:04,290 [zaza]: kay 511 00:18:04,547 --> 00:18:09,120 [john_aberth]: by stenches or foul odors so they would wait until 512 00:18:09,049 --> 00:18:09,089 [zaza]: we 513 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:14,525 [john_aberth]: the body had decomposed quite a bit not too much that it would simply fall 514 00:18:14,605 --> 00:18:15,407 [john_aberth]: apart when it was 515 00:18:16,529 --> 00:18:16,609 [zaza]: oh 516 00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:20,498 [john_aberth]: you know launched from the catapult but enough so that it really stank 517 00:18:21,168 --> 00:18:22,188 [zaza]: yeah 518 00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:28,223 [john_aberth]: so there's corpses probably were you know a couple of weeks old and therefore you 519 00:18:28,264 --> 00:18:29,526 [john_aberth]: know the idea 520 00:18:29,388 --> 00:18:30,708 [zaza]: yeah 521 00:18:29,626 --> 00:18:35,295 [john_aberth]: was that it was not you know it was not just you know launching these 522 00:18:35,375 --> 00:18:40,424 [john_aberth]: corpses when they had died they had to all bad and that's when they could 523 00:18:40,464 --> 00:18:41,566 [john_aberth]: communicate the disease 524 00:18:42,358 --> 00:18:42,499 [zaza]: but 525 00:18:42,407 --> 00:18:43,930 [john_aberth]: but in terms 526 00:18:43,743 --> 00:18:43,863 [zaza]: yeah 527 00:18:43,970 --> 00:18:50,360 [john_aberth]: of the reality you know the interesting thing is that this the this i mean 528 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:56,210 [john_aberth]: we region was a big grain producing region the main export was grain that geneaas 529 00:18:56,290 --> 00:19:02,300 [john_aberth]: bringing back to europe and grain is a favorite food for rats and you know 530 00:19:03,101 --> 00:19:07,084 [john_aberth]: the grain shipments would have been infested with rats and rats are one of the 531 00:19:07,124 --> 00:19:13,844 [john_aberth]: main carriers of the bubonic plague so in bringing back these grain cargoes europe they 532 00:19:13,865 --> 00:19:18,784 [john_aberth]: would have brought back the plague were the infested rats and that's that's probably how 533 00:19:18,844 --> 00:19:26,317 [john_aberth]: the plague was communicated to the genuines first because the port of caffa was a 534 00:19:26,417 --> 00:19:32,085 [john_aberth]: main port a trading port at the end of the silk road that went through 535 00:19:32,245 --> 00:19:36,160 [john_aberth]: the northern part of central asia and 536 00:19:36,451 --> 00:19:36,531 [zaza]: so 537 00:19:36,701 --> 00:19:40,708 [john_aberth]: the disease spread along this trade route and then came to the port of caffa 538 00:19:40,808 --> 00:19:46,377 [john_aberth]: and then the genuines brought the disease back to europe in their grain shipments and 539 00:19:46,437 --> 00:19:49,943 [john_aberth]: by the way you know this is still big grain producer in region ukraine for 540 00:19:50,003 --> 00:19:54,410 [john_aberth]: example is a big supplier of grain as we all know from the war that's 541 00:19:54,470 --> 00:20:01,483 [john_aberth]: going on there and that's being disrupted by the war with russia and that was 542 00:20:01,564 --> 00:20:06,115 [john_aberth]: also true in the middle ages as well in thirteen forty six when the siege 543 00:20:06,195 --> 00:20:09,494 [john_aberth]: took place there was no no shipments going back 544 00:20:10,638 --> 00:20:11,868 [zaza]: yeah 545 00:20:10,711 --> 00:20:15,181 [john_aberth]: and that ended in thirteen forty seven when peace was concluded between the mongols and 546 00:20:15,221 --> 00:20:19,116 [john_aberth]: the gen genoans and that's when they brought the plague back yeah 547 00:20:18,908 --> 00:20:20,110 [zaza]: but how how 548 00:20:20,098 --> 00:20:20,490 [john_aberth]: hm 549 00:20:20,210 --> 00:20:23,957 [zaza]: came the mongothedemongos didn't get infected 550 00:20:23,736 --> 00:20:24,210 [john_aberth]: hm 551 00:20:24,017 --> 00:20:24,919 [zaza]: then were they 552 00:20:24,870 --> 00:20:25,950 [john_aberth]: yeah 553 00:20:24,999 --> 00:20:26,341 [zaza]: already immune or 554 00:20:26,841 --> 00:20:27,303 [john_aberth]: no they were 555 00:20:27,363 --> 00:20:27,423 [zaza]: if 556 00:20:27,383 --> 00:20:27,826 [john_aberth]: infected 557 00:20:27,463 --> 00:20:29,066 [zaza]: there's some grain of truth to this story 558 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:34,409 [john_aberth]: yeah yeah the story is that the mongrels were dying from the plague and they 559 00:20:34,489 --> 00:20:38,055 [john_aberth]: kind of bolted their dead comrades into the town to try to 560 00:20:38,130 --> 00:20:38,150 [zaza]: h 561 00:20:38,135 --> 00:20:39,157 [john_aberth]: give it to the genlines 562 00:20:39,057 --> 00:20:39,078 [zaza]: m 563 00:20:39,958 --> 00:20:45,349 [john_aberth]: so yeah the mon s got the plague as bad if not worse than the 564 00:20:45,389 --> 00:20:46,291 [john_aberth]: christians according 565 00:20:46,308 --> 00:20:46,916 [zaza]: ye 566 00:20:46,371 --> 00:20:47,133 [john_aberth]: to this account 567 00:20:47,718 --> 00:20:48,060 [zaza]: is there 568 00:20:48,256 --> 00:20:48,396 [john_aberth]: met 569 00:20:48,421 --> 00:20:50,813 [zaza]: a currently sorry go ahead 570 00:20:51,970 --> 00:20:56,097 [john_aberth]: yeah and there are there are also islamic accounts from the middle east 571 00:20:56,778 --> 00:20:57,858 [zaza]: yeah 572 00:20:56,778 --> 00:21:01,726 [john_aberth]: to indicate that the middle east was hit just as hard as europe although we 573 00:21:01,766 --> 00:21:02,608 [john_aberth]: don't have as much 574 00:21:02,931 --> 00:21:03,013 [zaza]: oh 575 00:21:03,068 --> 00:21:04,091 [john_aberth]: our civonwith real 576 00:21:06,318 --> 00:21:06,578 [zaza]: is there 577 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:06,703 [john_aberth]: to 578 00:21:06,618 --> 00:21:08,301 [zaza]: a currently accepted theory of 579 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,360 [john_aberth]: yeah 580 00:21:08,601 --> 00:21:12,887 [zaza]: where the plague actually came from and and how did it jump to patient zero 581 00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:13,500 [john_aberth]: yeah 582 00:21:13,798 --> 00:21:14,121 [zaza]: do we have 583 00:21:14,161 --> 00:21:14,361 [john_aberth]: yeah 584 00:21:14,181 --> 00:21:14,625 [zaza]: any idea 585 00:21:14,602 --> 00:21:14,722 [john_aberth]: it's 586 00:21:14,746 --> 00:21:15,473 [zaza]: of how that happened 587 00:21:16,265 --> 00:21:20,852 [john_aberth]: well i should say there are three pandemics of plague the plague in the late 588 00:21:20,872 --> 00:21:26,642 [john_aberth]: middle ages was a so called second pandemic the first pandemic r beginning in five 589 00:21:26,702 --> 00:21:33,593 [john_aberth]: forty one in constantinople and this was in the early middle ages and it eventually 590 00:21:33,653 --> 00:21:40,124 [john_aberth]: died out by seven fifty and then played basically appeared for whatever reason for centuries 591 00:21:40,184 --> 00:21:45,052 [john_aberth]: for six centuries until it reappeared in thirteen forty seven thirteen forty eight in europe 592 00:21:46,395 --> 00:21:53,186 [john_aberth]: but in terms of you know the actual origins it is thought playing originated in 593 00:21:53,326 --> 00:21:58,074 [john_aberth]: central asia specifically in the quinn high tibet 594 00:21:57,738 --> 00:21:57,758 [zaza]: m 595 00:21:58,194 --> 00:22:04,246 [john_aberth]: plateau which is the modern day tibet in western china we know this because they 596 00:22:04,306 --> 00:22:13,091 [john_aberth]: have done some genetic mapping of modern isolates of uciniapestus which is the bacteria that 597 00:22:13,171 --> 00:22:18,300 [john_aberth]: causes the disease they've been able to map the d n a of cinna past 598 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:24,216 [john_aberth]: this and they found that this area this region has the has the most genetic 599 00:22:24,277 --> 00:22:32,060 [john_aberth]: diversity of all modern isolates of uciniapestas d n a so for that reason it 600 00:22:32,141 --> 00:22:37,470 [john_aberth]: is thought to have been the oldest region where ustinia pest emerged and then sped 601 00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:38,030 [john_aberth]: from there 602 00:22:39,168 --> 00:22:39,515 [zaza]: oh 603 00:22:39,653 --> 00:22:42,478 [john_aberth]: so it is thought that in the you know prior to 604 00:22:42,438 --> 00:22:42,683 [zaza]: oh 605 00:22:42,518 --> 00:22:48,909 [john_aberth]: thirteen forty seven there had been a so called genetic big bain that occurred in 606 00:22:48,989 --> 00:22:56,241 [john_aberth]: twelve six the eight where you know usin pass this mutated into different strains and 607 00:22:56,321 --> 00:23:01,189 [john_aberth]: then spread from there and by the way this is around the same time as 608 00:23:01,269 --> 00:23:07,900 [john_aberth]: mark paulo was making his journey to the great khan in twelve seventy one so 609 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:13,289 [john_aberth]: this was the time when the mongrels were establishing reestablishing the suck road that i 610 00:23:13,610 --> 00:23:18,598 [john_aberth]: that in roman times so this is how the plague was able to spread from 611 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:25,429 [john_aberth]: the central asia to europe along the route of the silk road that the mongol 612 00:23:25,610 --> 00:23:32,197 [john_aberth]: s had re established you know from the second half of the thirteenth century and 613 00:23:32,277 --> 00:23:38,216 [john_aberth]: then it finally reached europe um and as thought that it was you know spreading 614 00:23:38,877 --> 00:23:42,743 [john_aberth]: um you know from that time through the first half of the fourteenth 615 00:23:42,738 --> 00:23:42,758 [zaza]: m 616 00:23:42,803 --> 00:23:50,656 [john_aberth]: century um and you know was thought at one arabic chronicler one middle eastern chronicler 617 00:23:51,438 --> 00:23:56,406 [john_aberth]: ibn warde talks about how the play was known to be present in this region 618 00:23:56,506 --> 00:24:02,095 [john_aberth]: in china and central asia for fifteen years prior to thirteen forty seven forty eight 619 00:24:02,736 --> 00:24:06,042 [john_aberth]: so during the thirteen thirties at least it was plague had broken 620 00:24:06,108 --> 00:24:06,373 [zaza]: oh 621 00:24:06,182 --> 00:24:11,292 [john_aberth]: out in the east and it was now spreading west so that's basically how it 622 00:24:11,372 --> 00:24:12,676 [john_aberth]: spread from east to west 623 00:24:13,668 --> 00:24:18,334 [zaza]: i mean china being such an advanced civilization at the time do we have any 624 00:24:18,414 --> 00:24:19,556 [zaza]: records from 625 00:24:19,462 --> 00:24:19,543 [john_aberth]: ah 626 00:24:19,616 --> 00:24:20,397 [zaza]: chinese sources 627 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:28,352 [john_aberth]: yes we have annals or you know brief registers of yale events and they talk 628 00:24:28,452 --> 00:24:35,584 [john_aberth]: about pestilences or diseases that occur in the ten thirties and forties in some chinese 629 00:24:35,664 --> 00:24:41,013 [john_aberth]: provinces but they're not very specific about what the what these diseases were so it's 630 00:24:41,053 --> 00:24:46,642 [john_aberth]: hard to to know exactly what was going on there um but it does seem 631 00:24:46,763 --> 00:24:53,253 [john_aberth]: like the disease was present in china during the thirteen thirties and forties um but 632 00:24:53,293 --> 00:24:59,123 [john_aberth]: you know probably spread probably a plague originated in central asia in that to bet 633 00:24:59,223 --> 00:25:04,953 [john_aberth]: in western china region and spread to china from there and also spread to the 634 00:25:05,494 --> 00:25:08,879 [john_aberth]: to the west at the same time along 635 00:25:08,889 --> 00:25:09,953 [zaza]: so it went into like 636 00:25:09,981 --> 00:25:10,161 [john_aberth]: roots 637 00:25:10,014 --> 00:25:10,657 [zaza]: two directions 638 00:25:10,221 --> 00:25:10,842 [john_aberth]: of the silk robe 639 00:25:10,837 --> 00:25:11,541 [zaza]: east and west 640 00:25:11,502 --> 00:25:11,683 [john_aberth]: yeah 641 00:25:11,701 --> 00:25:11,862 [zaza]: at the 642 00:25:11,823 --> 00:25:11,903 [john_aberth]: it 643 00:25:11,902 --> 00:25:12,063 [zaza]: same 644 00:25:11,943 --> 00:25:12,403 [john_aberth]: basically 645 00:25:12,123 --> 00:25:12,304 [zaza]: time 646 00:25:12,504 --> 00:25:18,552 [john_aberth]: radiated out from that from that quin high to bet plateau from that you know 647 00:25:19,354 --> 00:25:23,084 [john_aberth]: original you know origin of plague 648 00:25:24,379 --> 00:25:25,581 [zaza]: so once the plague 649 00:25:25,452 --> 00:25:25,472 [john_aberth]: m 650 00:25:25,681 --> 00:25:27,645 [zaza]: starts spreading through continental 651 00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:27,110 [john_aberth]: m 652 00:25:28,005 --> 00:25:29,267 [zaza]: europe and people begin 653 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:29,462 [john_aberth]: oh 654 00:25:29,367 --> 00:25:34,957 [zaza]: dying on an unprecedented scale even for medieval times right how are most of them 655 00:25:35,518 --> 00:25:40,185 [zaza]: reacting to all of this do they actually believe that this is some kind of 656 00:25:40,226 --> 00:25:40,967 [zaza]: an apocalypse 657 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:40,580 [john_aberth]: m 658 00:25:41,488 --> 00:25:46,115 [zaza]: or was most of the populace like okay this is pretty horrible but it's 659 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:46,100 [john_aberth]: m 660 00:25:46,175 --> 00:25:51,565 [zaza]: not completely out of cope of the usual repertoire of horrible things that you know 661 00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:51,680 [john_aberth]: m 662 00:25:51,725 --> 00:25:52,366 [zaza]: we already know 663 00:25:54,061 --> 00:25:58,268 [john_aberth]: yeah it's interesting i mean most of the chronicles that we have talk about as 664 00:25:58,328 --> 00:26:06,181 [john_aberth]: an unprecedented event i mean the famous italian author petrarch fantastico petrarch it's about how 665 00:26:07,463 --> 00:26:13,633 [john_aberth]: you know no other generation of humans had to endure what he was enduring or 666 00:26:13,713 --> 00:26:18,061 [john_aberth]: what his generation was enduring you know when was when we remain to feel the 667 00:26:18,121 --> 00:26:24,612 [john_aberth]: lash as we are feeling the lash of god from this disease so i think 668 00:26:24,673 --> 00:26:29,672 [john_aberth]: there was little memory of that first pandemic that i mentioned from the early middle 669 00:26:29,752 --> 00:26:37,324 [john_aberth]: ages there maybe was some awareness some on certain authors but you know there was 670 00:26:38,065 --> 00:26:44,405 [john_aberth]: it was seen as unprecedented you know that never been never seen before this much 671 00:26:44,505 --> 00:26:50,996 [john_aberth]: mortality you have to remember that our best estimates from you know our civil documents 672 00:26:51,317 --> 00:26:55,564 [john_aberth]: you know usually tax records for us ample our best estimates is that fifty to 673 00:26:56,145 --> 00:27:01,534 [john_aberth]: sixty per cent of the population of europe died so you know every other person 674 00:27:01,614 --> 00:27:04,959 [john_aberth]: was dying of this of this disease on average i mean 675 00:27:04,899 --> 00:27:04,999 [zaza]: did 676 00:27:04,979 --> 00:27:05,100 [john_aberth]: that 677 00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:05,280 [zaza]: you say 678 00:27:05,243 --> 00:27:05,365 [john_aberth]: so 679 00:27:05,542 --> 00:27:07,572 [zaza]: did you say sixty to seventy per cent 680 00:27:07,711 --> 00:27:08,921 [john_aberth]: fifty to sixty per cent 681 00:27:08,978 --> 00:27:09,239 [zaza]: fifty 682 00:27:09,063 --> 00:27:09,244 [john_aberth]: yeah 683 00:27:09,299 --> 00:27:10,906 [zaza]: to sixty percent okay so 684 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:11,300 [john_aberth]: right 685 00:27:11,368 --> 00:27:11,810 [zaza]: more than 686 00:27:11,761 --> 00:27:11,921 [john_aberth]: you're 687 00:27:11,870 --> 00:27:12,212 [zaza]: a half 688 00:27:11,981 --> 00:27:15,307 [john_aberth]: talking you're talking about fifty million people as estimated 689 00:27:16,188 --> 00:27:16,409 [zaza]: yeah 690 00:27:16,389 --> 00:27:18,492 [john_aberth]: being wiped out in that those first 691 00:27:18,546 --> 00:27:18,687 [zaza]: yeah 692 00:27:18,592 --> 00:27:23,641 [john_aberth]: two years from thirteen forty seven thirteen to thirteen fifty being white out in a 693 00:27:23,701 --> 00:27:30,212 [john_aberth]: few years so yeah i made a huge impact upon people you know a typical 694 00:27:30,312 --> 00:27:35,601 [john_aberth]: explanation was that this play came from god as a retribution for human wick distance 695 00:27:35,741 --> 00:27:43,273 [john_aberth]: in and that therefore you know human aid something brought this upon themselves um you 696 00:27:43,313 --> 00:27:47,941 [john_aberth]: know was just the end of the world you know perhaps some i believe so 697 00:27:48,182 --> 00:27:54,252 [john_aberth]: but you know the the notions of the apocalypse were perhaps different than what we 698 00:27:54,312 --> 00:28:00,682 [john_aberth]: have today the apocalypse would indicate a new era that would begin and maybe you 699 00:28:00,722 --> 00:28:05,110 [john_aberth]: know some people surely thought thought that was the case but yeah it certainly seemed 700 00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:12,493 [john_aberth]: to be unheard of unheard of before in any other chronicle or in the bible 701 00:28:14,010 --> 00:28:22,324 [john_aberth]: and therefore you know this was something new and something unprecedented that you know this 702 00:28:22,404 --> 00:28:28,355 [john_aberth]: generation was was experiencing so yeah certainly a sense that it was that it was 703 00:28:29,016 --> 00:28:36,075 [john_aberth]: you know and awesome you know once in a lifetime or you know certainly once 704 00:28:36,175 --> 00:28:39,359 [john_aberth]: in generations event that was taken players 705 00:28:40,759 --> 00:28:41,219 [zaza]: i remember 706 00:28:41,062 --> 00:28:41,144 [john_aberth]: ah 707 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:41,940 [zaza]: when we covered 708 00:28:42,510 --> 00:28:42,733 [john_aberth]: oh 709 00:28:42,541 --> 00:28:47,249 [zaza]: the black death in high school it was all quite dry something along the lines 710 00:28:47,329 --> 00:28:47,410 [zaza]: of 711 00:28:47,340 --> 00:28:48,270 [john_aberth]: oh 712 00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:50,915 [zaza]: you know all righty kids the black death came killed 713 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:51,104 [john_aberth]: oh 714 00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:53,600 [zaza]: millions of people after a couple of years people 715 00:28:53,626 --> 00:28:53,767 [john_aberth]: yeah 716 00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:56,966 [zaza]: had a really really bad time for a while but after it burned out 717 00:28:56,961 --> 00:28:57,123 [john_aberth]: yeah 718 00:28:57,226 --> 00:28:59,470 [zaza]: everything kind of went back to normal so 719 00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:00,603 [john_aberth]: yeah that's wrong 720 00:29:00,391 --> 00:29:04,999 [zaza]: this kind of history yeah that can be re imagined through some great storical person 721 00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:06,161 [zaza]: like a duke winning 722 00:29:06,540 --> 00:29:06,862 [john_aberth]: oh 723 00:29:06,822 --> 00:29:08,304 [zaza]: famous battle or 724 00:29:08,593 --> 00:29:08,754 [john_aberth]: yeah 725 00:29:08,765 --> 00:29:09,967 [zaza]: a queen out smarting her 726 00:29:10,042 --> 00:29:10,163 [john_aberth]: ah 727 00:29:10,127 --> 00:29:11,169 [zaza]: enemies on the 728 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:12,406 [john_aberth]: oh 729 00:29:11,209 --> 00:29:17,940 [zaza]: diplomatic stage is usually not given its proper due when conveyed we have any diaries 730 00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:23,346 [zaza]: or chronicles written by let's say a black smith or midwife or some sort of 731 00:29:23,406 --> 00:29:25,760 [zaza]: a commoner painting the picture 732 00:29:25,813 --> 00:29:25,874 [john_aberth]: to 733 00:29:25,820 --> 00:29:27,706 [zaza]: of everyday life during the plague 734 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,126 [john_aberth]: no not not at this time no but i should also 735 00:29:31,950 --> 00:29:32,012 [zaza]: he 736 00:29:32,246 --> 00:29:39,318 [john_aberth]: mentioned that modern scholars concur that this they call this the black death the greatest 737 00:29:39,438 --> 00:29:47,451 [john_aberth]: natural disaster in the history of human kind so they also from the perspective you 738 00:29:47,491 --> 00:29:53,734 [john_aberth]: know from the perspective of modern times they also concur that this was precedented event 739 00:29:54,860 --> 00:29:59,565 [john_aberth]: um based on their research but as far as what you were asking was there 740 00:30:00,706 --> 00:30:06,632 [john_aberth]: you know a personal record of the plague ah we don't really 741 00:30:06,468 --> 00:30:06,689 [zaza]: oh 742 00:30:06,712 --> 00:30:11,100 [john_aberth]: have that what we what we do have as records of whole families being wiped 743 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:20,295 [john_aberth]: out that no one survives you know that pretty much the father the mother the 744 00:30:20,375 --> 00:30:26,385 [john_aberth]: sons the daughters they all die in some cases in some towns so we have 745 00:30:26,505 --> 00:30:26,826 [john_aberth]: records 746 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:26,721 [zaza]: at 747 00:30:26,886 --> 00:30:32,295 [john_aberth]: of that of its impact upon families how it could simply wipe out and devastate 748 00:30:32,355 --> 00:30:37,484 [john_aberth]: a whole family or even a whole village there are some cases of a hundred 749 00:30:37,544 --> 00:30:40,108 [john_aberth]: per cent mortality being recorded so 750 00:30:40,251 --> 00:30:41,640 [zaza]: but yeah 751 00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:46,897 [john_aberth]: you can imagine that there was you know an impact 752 00:30:46,908 --> 00:30:47,718 [zaza]: yeah 753 00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:52,331 [john_aberth]: i think the i think the most important you know personal 754 00:30:53,074 --> 00:30:53,688 [zaza]: hm 755 00:30:53,273 --> 00:30:59,223 [john_aberth]: uh you know personal reckoning with the plague was about what to do with sick 756 00:30:59,343 --> 00:31:04,950 [john_aberth]: family members if you can imagine someone gets sick in your family so and you 757 00:31:05,030 --> 00:31:09,738 [john_aberth]: believe this is a contagious disease although you know we know it's spread by rats 758 00:31:09,798 --> 00:31:14,726 [john_aberth]: and fleas not mainly human to human but you know if you believe this is 759 00:31:14,806 --> 00:31:19,374 [john_aberth]: a contagious disease what do you do with it family members do you flee and 760 00:31:19,434 --> 00:31:23,621 [john_aberth]: abandon them or do you stay and take care of them and possibly possibly get 761 00:31:23,661 --> 00:31:29,030 [john_aberth]: the plague yourself and that was the main you know social family dilemma i think 762 00:31:29,090 --> 00:31:33,058 [john_aberth]: that was faced by most people at the time of the black death what to 763 00:31:33,138 --> 00:31:38,950 [john_aberth]: do when a member of the family gets sick and how do you respond and 764 00:31:39,030 --> 00:31:45,741 [john_aberth]: it's a question that you know was also asked by you know during the ovid 765 00:31:45,821 --> 00:31:51,212 [john_aberth]: pandemic today because you know people face the same dilemma what if someone get covid 766 00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:53,145 [john_aberth]: and how do you respond 767 00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:56,621 [zaza]: but what kind of records then do we 768 00:31:56,701 --> 00:31:56,923 [john_aberth]: yeah 769 00:31:56,701 --> 00:31:59,886 [zaza]: have you already mentioned like tax tax 770 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:00,200 [john_aberth]: yeah 771 00:32:00,026 --> 00:32:00,627 [zaza]: records right 772 00:32:01,366 --> 00:32:01,506 [john_aberth]: yeah 773 00:32:02,637 --> 00:32:05,400 [zaza]: what else is there that 774 00:32:05,260 --> 00:32:05,461 [john_aberth]: well 775 00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:05,682 [zaza]: time 776 00:32:05,861 --> 00:32:10,749 [john_aberth]: we have varus records that can give us an idea of how many people were 777 00:32:11,070 --> 00:32:16,779 [john_aberth]: actually dying from a black death so those include you know manorial records for example 778 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:23,370 [john_aberth]: england england has the most records that survive and these include you know over a 779 00:32:23,451 --> 00:32:30,382 [john_aberth]: hundred manorial accounts these are basically records of the manor court and they're mainly recording 780 00:32:31,424 --> 00:32:37,734 [john_aberth]: who s paying their taxes or you know who who is actually sometimes actually record 781 00:32:38,255 --> 00:32:43,444 [john_aberth]: who has actually died of the disease we all i have epistcball records these are 782 00:32:44,185 --> 00:32:49,374 [john_aberth]: the records of the bishops of england and these record how many priests were dying 783 00:32:50,135 --> 00:32:56,546 [john_aberth]: during the play because they record the vacancy that occurred in every church um and 784 00:32:56,606 --> 00:33:02,055 [john_aberth]: we have sometimes letters that were written for example i mentioned petrarch 785 00:33:01,848 --> 00:33:02,508 [zaza]: yeah 786 00:33:02,716 --> 00:33:08,513 [john_aberth]: he wrote a letter to us friend louis sanctus talking about the disease so that's 787 00:33:09,134 --> 00:33:10,396 [john_aberth]: a more personal record 788 00:33:11,333 --> 00:33:11,988 [zaza]: hm 789 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:19,651 [john_aberth]: about the disease and there's also a letter from caluciosalutati who was cansellor of florence 790 00:33:20,753 --> 00:33:26,342 [john_aberth]: which is also where petrarch came from of course and he talks about you know 791 00:33:26,623 --> 00:33:31,673 [john_aberth]: how people are fleeing the plague how people are fleeing the city of lawrence and 792 00:33:31,773 --> 00:33:35,845 [john_aberth]: what to do about that situation because he wants people to stay and be a 793 00:33:35,905 --> 00:33:41,106 [john_aberth]: part of civic life so we do have some personal letters that talk about the 794 00:33:41,146 --> 00:33:46,555 [john_aberth]: disease um and we also have you know a lot of chronicle 795 00:33:46,368 --> 00:33:46,570 [zaza]: yeah 796 00:33:46,635 --> 00:33:53,164 [john_aberth]: accounts a lot of chronicles that talk the disease and its impact so we have 797 00:33:53,224 --> 00:34:00,132 [john_aberth]: varius chronicles written usually by clerical authors you know people members of the church who 798 00:34:00,493 --> 00:34:04,979 [john_aberth]: the most literate members of society and those give us accounts of the disease as 799 00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:05,239 [john_aberth]: well 800 00:34:06,729 --> 00:34:10,816 [zaza]: it's a little bit ironic that you mentioned that the tax records were 801 00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:12,360 [john_aberth]: yeah 802 00:34:11,517 --> 00:34:12,479 [zaza]: kind of pristine that 803 00:34:12,390 --> 00:34:12,612 [john_aberth]: yes 804 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:13,741 [zaza]: even in the times of this 805 00:34:13,839 --> 00:34:13,860 [john_aberth]: m 806 00:34:14,402 --> 00:34:18,029 [zaza]: cataclysmic event the tax office is still standing yeah 807 00:34:18,441 --> 00:34:23,469 [john_aberth]: yeah it is amazing to even during the time of the the you know when 808 00:34:23,509 --> 00:34:24,971 [john_aberth]: the disease was wiping out so many 809 00:34:24,837 --> 00:34:24,858 [zaza]: m 810 00:34:25,072 --> 00:34:27,756 [john_aberth]: people you still get regular entries although 811 00:34:28,638 --> 00:34:28,903 [zaza]: oh 812 00:34:29,118 --> 00:34:35,990 [john_aberth]: you know they handwriting becomes you know a little a little more regular or you 813 00:34:36,050 --> 00:34:41,038 [john_aberth]: know but they're still making their entries there still holding the manor court they're still 814 00:34:41,118 --> 00:34:49,132 [john_aberth]: trying to run the business the daily business of life so yeah it's impressive how 815 00:34:49,833 --> 00:34:56,133 [john_aberth]: the administration continues to carry on even when you have half the people dying oh 816 00:34:56,188 --> 00:35:00,355 [zaza]: um yeah i want to ask something related to that so we have a situation 817 00:35:00,455 --> 00:35:02,479 [zaza]: suddenly where in some places you mentioned 818 00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:02,434 [john_aberth]: oh 819 00:35:03,801 --> 00:35:04,402 [zaza]: more than half 820 00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:04,400 [john_aberth]: m 821 00:35:04,462 --> 00:35:08,068 [zaza]: of the population dies where whole communities are getting white tout 822 00:35:09,341 --> 00:35:09,502 [john_aberth]: yeah 823 00:35:09,951 --> 00:35:14,559 [zaza]: do people still generally respect the social order when it seems that the world around 824 00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:19,968 [zaza]: them has crumbled or do we have scenes of complete maham you know on the 825 00:35:20,028 --> 00:35:24,717 [zaza]: streets and and you know decadent stuff going on in every tavern 826 00:35:26,351 --> 00:35:33,242 [john_aberth]: i think we we have the general sense that life carries on you know in 827 00:35:33,282 --> 00:35:39,553 [john_aberth]: the in the bishop of winchester's estate you recent study has found that the average 828 00:35:39,613 --> 00:35:46,464 [john_aberth]: mortality was seventy six per cent so these you know any new any new 829 00:35:46,668 --> 00:35:47,478 [zaza]: yeah 830 00:35:46,965 --> 00:35:53,276 [john_aberth]: any new analysis we have only pushes the death rate higher but even so the 831 00:35:53,336 --> 00:35:58,484 [john_aberth]: bishop of winchester still carries on his administration and life continues to go on and 832 00:35:58,544 --> 00:36:06,498 [john_aberth]: he's still collecting rents from this peasants so you know things don't collapse right away 833 00:36:08,401 --> 00:36:13,529 [john_aberth]: you know the there was a huge impact as i said made by that first 834 00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:13,741 [zaza]: a 835 00:36:13,790 --> 00:36:20,220 [john_aberth]: break of the black death in thirteen forty seven to thirteen fifty but then now 836 00:36:20,340 --> 00:36:26,450 [john_aberth]: europe seems to recover somewhat from that the problem is which goes back to the 837 00:36:26,490 --> 00:36:33,141 [john_aberth]: point you made it was not simply one outbreak play kept coming back about once 838 00:36:33,242 --> 00:36:38,671 [john_aberth]: a decade throughout the second half of the fourteenth and throughout the fifteenth centuries so 839 00:36:39,572 --> 00:36:46,283 [john_aberth]: you know the plague doesn't end in the mid fourteenth century it occurs throughout the 840 00:36:46,323 --> 00:36:50,591 [john_aberth]: rest of the middle ages and on into the early modern period play really only 841 00:36:50,671 --> 00:36:56,682 [john_aberth]: dies out in the second half of the seventeenth and you know last gap last 842 00:36:56,782 --> 00:36:57,123 [john_aberth]: gasp 843 00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:56,890 [zaza]: hm 844 00:36:57,424 --> 00:36:59,391 [john_aberth]: in the eighteenth century so 845 00:37:00,309 --> 00:37:00,369 [zaza]: so 846 00:37:00,375 --> 00:37:00,455 [john_aberth]: you 847 00:37:00,469 --> 00:37:00,690 [zaza]: people 848 00:37:00,495 --> 00:37:00,937 [john_aberth]: know plague 849 00:37:00,750 --> 00:37:00,930 [zaza]: learn 850 00:37:01,017 --> 00:37:01,177 [john_aberth]: never 851 00:37:01,211 --> 00:37:02,535 [zaza]: how to live with it eventually 852 00:37:03,001 --> 00:37:07,428 [john_aberth]: right i mean plague never goes away and it is it was traditionally thought that 853 00:37:07,528 --> 00:37:14,280 [john_aberth]: plague was of lower virulence in these later outbreaks and the latest research for example 854 00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:19,986 [john_aberth]: in the netherlands has found that actually later plays could be just as deadly as 855 00:37:20,026 --> 00:37:26,114 [john_aberth]: the first outbreak for example in holland it was found that the plague of fourteen 856 00:37:26,028 --> 00:37:26,312 [zaza]: oh 857 00:37:26,194 --> 00:37:32,124 [john_aberth]: hundred fourteen o one was called the great mortality because it's mortality was greater than 858 00:37:32,204 --> 00:37:37,855 [john_aberth]: in the mid fourteenth century so but still it could come back with you know 859 00:37:38,216 --> 00:37:42,888 [john_aberth]: just as high violence or even greater violence throughout the rest of the middle ages 860 00:37:43,698 --> 00:37:43,818 [zaza]: but 861 00:37:44,023 --> 00:37:44,268 [john_aberth]: yeah 862 00:37:44,139 --> 00:37:44,620 [zaza]: do we know 863 00:37:44,850 --> 00:37:44,870 [john_aberth]: m 864 00:37:45,741 --> 00:37:48,125 [zaza]: you mentioned chronicles that you know from that 865 00:37:48,015 --> 00:37:48,116 [john_aberth]: so 866 00:37:48,226 --> 00:37:49,227 [zaza]: time from from 867 00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:49,411 [john_aberth]: yeah 868 00:37:49,488 --> 00:37:50,209 [zaza]: thirteen for 869 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:50,540 [john_aberth]: m 870 00:37:50,730 --> 00:37:52,012 [zaza]: forty seven to 871 00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:52,040 [john_aberth]: m 872 00:37:52,272 --> 00:37:52,853 [zaza]: i think you said 873 00:37:53,196 --> 00:37:53,216 [john_aberth]: a 874 00:37:53,394 --> 00:37:54,356 [zaza]: thirteen fifty right 875 00:37:55,061 --> 00:37:58,587 [john_aberth]: yeah one of them is as what you mentioned gabriel de massise's account 876 00:37:59,270 --> 00:38:00,018 [zaza]: hm 877 00:37:59,428 --> 00:38:02,774 [john_aberth]: of the mongols kind of pulling their play corpses into the town 878 00:38:02,819 --> 00:38:02,899 [zaza]: do 879 00:38:02,855 --> 00:38:03,235 [john_aberth]: of kava 880 00:38:02,959 --> 00:38:07,625 [zaza]: they describe how people are behaving at all in you know during this first brutal 881 00:38:07,745 --> 00:38:10,350 [zaza]: wave of the plague what kind of scenes 882 00:38:10,181 --> 00:38:10,361 [john_aberth]: yes 883 00:38:10,410 --> 00:38:10,471 [zaza]: are 884 00:38:10,441 --> 00:38:10,541 [john_aberth]: they 885 00:38:10,511 --> 00:38:10,651 [zaza]: there 886 00:38:10,621 --> 00:38:10,782 [john_aberth]: talk 887 00:38:10,692 --> 00:38:10,852 [zaza]: on the 888 00:38:10,882 --> 00:38:11,082 [john_aberth]: about 889 00:38:10,893 --> 00:38:11,113 [zaza]: street 890 00:38:11,163 --> 00:38:17,817 [john_aberth]: that you know perhaps the most famous of course is giovan bocacio's introduction to the 891 00:38:17,977 --> 00:38:18,318 [john_aberth]: camera 892 00:38:19,254 --> 00:38:19,908 [zaza]: hm 893 00:38:19,310 --> 00:38:24,519 [john_aberth]: his collection of a hundred stories and his introduction he talks about what was happening 894 00:38:24,579 --> 00:38:30,369 [john_aberth]: in the city of florence and his his most famous you know account is how 895 00:38:31,110 --> 00:38:38,141 [john_aberth]: you know brothers abandoned brothers sisters abandoned sisters parents even abandoned their children you know 896 00:38:38,201 --> 00:38:44,632 [john_aberth]: that people will only concern for themselves and basically the community begins to fall apart 897 00:38:44,732 --> 00:38:50,762 [john_aberth]: which i think goes back to what you were saying in some sense people he 898 00:38:50,842 --> 00:38:57,914 [john_aberth]: complains that people were fleeing the plague leaving florence and therefore in his mind they 899 00:38:57,954 --> 00:39:03,443 [john_aberth]: were leaving florence in the hands of the worst element society of the lowest of 900 00:39:03,503 --> 00:39:09,493 [john_aberth]: the lowest order you know because the the people who could flee were of course 901 00:39:09,573 --> 00:39:15,924 [john_aberth]: the wealthiest members of society people who estates in the country to flee to 902 00:39:16,580 --> 00:39:17,203 [zaza]: no surprises 903 00:39:16,885 --> 00:39:17,126 [john_aberth]: you know 904 00:39:17,264 --> 00:39:17,425 [zaza]: there 905 00:39:18,308 --> 00:39:20,572 [john_aberth]: right ordinary people had no where to go 906 00:39:20,628 --> 00:39:20,850 [zaza]: yeah 907 00:39:20,772 --> 00:39:26,641 [john_aberth]: i mean you know they didn't have nice country estates nice country homes thank you 908 00:39:26,681 --> 00:39:33,913 [john_aberth]: know so you know these the wealthiest people the leaders of civic society were clean 909 00:39:34,614 --> 00:39:40,524 [john_aberth]: and leaving behind the detritus of society and that was his basic complaint was that 910 00:39:41,986 --> 00:39:50,962 [john_aberth]: you know this was you know a collapse of moral obligations and caluciosalutati makes the 911 00:39:51,022 --> 00:39:56,074 [john_aberth]: same point later in thirteen eighty two in response to another plague epidemic that hits 912 00:39:56,194 --> 00:40:03,164 [john_aberth]: florence in thirteen eighty one so this is a recurrent theme that people would abandon 913 00:40:03,244 --> 00:40:10,854 [john_aberth]: their commitments to their family to society to their city and you know trying to 914 00:40:10,894 --> 00:40:18,006 [john_aberth]: save themselves and leaving you know leaving everyone else behind what is interesting is to 915 00:40:18,086 --> 00:40:23,635 [john_aberth]: compare the response and islam in the least which had a different set of cultural 916 00:40:23,695 --> 00:40:28,904 [john_aberth]: assumptions in islam there was supposed to be a 917 00:40:28,938 --> 00:40:29,598 [zaza]: yeah 918 00:40:29,044 --> 00:40:37,178 [john_aberth]: moral obligation to stay do not leave a plague infested region or to enter a 919 00:40:37,278 --> 00:40:42,346 [john_aberth]: plague infested region and there was also belief the plague was a mercy and martyrdom 920 00:40:42,446 --> 00:40:46,918 [john_aberth]: for believers that if you died of plague you would automatically go to heaven as 921 00:40:47,018 --> 00:40:55,677 [john_aberth]: if you died in ad so ah the idea here was that people have more 922 00:40:55,717 --> 00:41:00,605 [john_aberth]: of a cultural obligation to tend to members of the community to the om or 923 00:41:00,645 --> 00:41:05,612 [john_aberth]: the community of a sam where that it was actually true in reality i mean 924 00:41:06,193 --> 00:41:10,379 [john_aberth]: s hard to tell but you know there was different cultural assumptions going on here 925 00:41:11,358 --> 00:41:16,706 [zaza]: m um if we move on to medical responses at the time 926 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:17,142 [john_aberth]: yah 927 00:41:17,628 --> 00:41:23,538 [zaza]: when it comes to medieval doctors are usual i mean usually our first associate and 928 00:41:24,319 --> 00:41:25,281 [zaza]: is of leeches 929 00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:24,920 [john_aberth]: m 930 00:41:25,521 --> 00:41:26,342 [zaza]: and and relics 931 00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:26,684 [john_aberth]: oh 932 00:41:26,743 --> 00:41:31,992 [zaza]: and such what was the most commonly prescribed treatment for the plague and how did 933 00:41:32,032 --> 00:41:37,822 [zaza]: the doctors explain the mechanism of the infection time i think you mentioned something about 934 00:41:37,922 --> 00:41:39,966 [zaza]: corrupt air or something along those 935 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:40,240 [john_aberth]: right 936 00:41:40,006 --> 00:41:40,267 [zaza]: lines 937 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,128 [john_aberth]: i mean actually this is the focus of much of my research on the plague 938 00:41:45,208 --> 00:41:50,477 [john_aberth]: treatises which were medical treatises written by plague doctors in response to the black death 939 00:41:51,238 --> 00:41:56,327 [john_aberth]: but what i and was that doctors actually did come up with something new as 940 00:41:56,427 --> 00:41:58,190 [john_aberth]: an explanation al plague and this is what 941 00:41:58,158 --> 00:41:58,361 [zaza]: oh 942 00:41:58,250 --> 00:42:00,915 [john_aberth]: i call the poison thesis the idea 943 00:42:00,777 --> 00:42:00,798 [zaza]: m 944 00:42:00,975 --> 00:42:03,579 [john_aberth]: that plague was a poison entering the body 945 00:42:03,378 --> 00:42:03,398 [zaza]: m 946 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,364 [john_aberth]: and this poison was um 947 00:42:06,581 --> 00:42:06,622 [zaza]: m 948 00:42:06,704 --> 00:42:07,005 [john_aberth]: you know 949 00:42:07,677 --> 00:42:07,698 [zaza]: m 950 00:42:07,806 --> 00:42:08,988 [john_aberth]: of a whole substance 951 00:42:09,138 --> 00:42:09,359 [zaza]: oh 952 00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:11,352 [john_aberth]: that meant that it was it didn't 953 00:42:11,388 --> 00:42:12,858 [zaza]: yeah 954 00:42:11,392 --> 00:42:14,257 [john_aberth]: matter what your humoral makeup or complexion 955 00:42:13,728 --> 00:42:14,093 [zaza]: oh 956 00:42:14,337 --> 00:42:21,369 [john_aberth]: was it would effect everyone regardless of individual complexion of makeup and this seemed to 957 00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:27,759 [john_aberth]: you know mirror how the play was you know indiscriminate in its impact upon soc 958 00:42:28,180 --> 00:42:34,170 [john_aberth]: how is affecting everyone young or old high or low degree and you know also 959 00:42:34,310 --> 00:42:41,943 [john_aberth]: how the play was was simply ferocious and you know sickened people so quickly and 960 00:42:42,023 --> 00:42:46,711 [john_aberth]: was so deadly um so this poison could enter 961 00:42:46,570 --> 00:42:46,694 [zaza]: yes 962 00:42:46,771 --> 00:42:51,759 [john_aberth]: her body and then once inside the body it multiplied it could multiply inside the 963 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,087 [john_aberth]: ody and went straight to the heart and killed it and that's why plague was 964 00:42:56,127 --> 00:43:02,617 [john_aberth]: so deadly in that explanation and that's why i also plague affected everyone regardless of 965 00:43:02,678 --> 00:43:08,006 [john_aberth]: their individual makeup um and it also by the way sort of foreshadows the germ 966 00:43:08,127 --> 00:43:13,015 [john_aberth]: theory of disease because you know germs are a foreign substance that enter the body 967 00:43:13,676 --> 00:43:18,885 [john_aberth]: and they actually call toxins and that apply once inside the body and and kill 968 00:43:18,925 --> 00:43:25,736 [john_aberth]: it quickly and the best way to combat poison was through drugs and therefore common 969 00:43:25,836 --> 00:43:31,686 [john_aberth]: prescription of medieval doctor was theriac which is a compound going all the way back 970 00:43:31,746 --> 00:43:40,664 [john_aberth]: to keen mythrodatis of pontus in egypt rather in in greece who allegedly jested poison 971 00:43:41,549 --> 00:43:47,324 [john_aberth]: and became immune to poison so this was a compound consisting of about sixty elements 972 00:43:47,465 --> 00:43:50,488 [john_aberth]: that could neutralize poison once it entered the 973 00:43:50,448 --> 00:43:50,748 [zaza]: yeah 974 00:43:50,528 --> 00:43:51,731 [john_aberth]: body so 975 00:43:51,792 --> 00:43:55,503 [zaza]: and and what did that actually do to somebody's you know 976 00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:55,720 [john_aberth]: didn't 977 00:43:55,723 --> 00:43:56,044 [zaza]: system 978 00:43:55,740 --> 00:43:56,542 [john_aberth]: really do anything 979 00:43:56,225 --> 00:43:56,506 [zaza]: once day 980 00:43:56,622 --> 00:44:02,111 [john_aberth]: in terms of you know modern modern sense of killing the bacteria but it was 981 00:44:02,211 --> 00:44:09,483 [john_aberth]: believed it could counteract poison but you know perhaps the most common treatment that that 982 00:44:09,563 --> 00:44:16,595 [john_aberth]: you mentioned is bleeding the body that you know you open a vein in the 983 00:44:16,735 --> 00:44:22,785 [john_aberth]: arm for example or usually very often on the hand and you bleed the patient 984 00:44:23,587 --> 00:44:30,358 [john_aberth]: and one medival doctor this is bin hatim of maria in spain who was a 985 00:44:30,618 --> 00:44:38,192 [john_aberth]: physician in the more city of almon in spain controlled by the moslems he said 986 00:44:38,293 --> 00:44:46,947 [john_aberth]: that people gave about he said that people would give an enormous amount of blood 987 00:44:48,711 --> 00:44:53,658 [john_aberth]: during the plague you know equivalent to the entire amount of blood in the human 988 00:44:53,738 --> 00:45:01,180 [john_aberth]: body um but this was probably during the whole reign of plague from june thirteen 989 00:45:00,897 --> 00:45:00,918 [zaza]: m 990 00:45:01,281 --> 00:45:06,630 [john_aberth]: forty eight to february thirteen forty nine so over the course of many months but 991 00:45:06,770 --> 00:45:13,601 [john_aberth]: now people you know gave you know according to him as much blood as there 992 00:45:13,661 --> 00:45:19,431 [john_aberth]: was an hundred and fifty pound person so you know that's it was an incredible 993 00:45:19,491 --> 00:45:21,636 [john_aberth]: amount of blood that people would give you know 994 00:45:21,528 --> 00:45:21,750 [zaza]: yeah 995 00:45:21,836 --> 00:45:26,085 [john_aberth]: a pint a pint and a half at a time until they fainted 996 00:45:27,498 --> 00:45:28,319 [zaza]: so that probably 997 00:45:28,324 --> 00:45:28,527 [john_aberth]: yeah 998 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,744 [zaza]: just weakened you for when you actually got the disease 999 00:45:31,830 --> 00:45:32,550 [john_aberth]: oh 1000 00:45:31,844 --> 00:45:33,346 [zaza]: and then you died even sooner right 1001 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:33,741 [john_aberth]: possibly 1002 00:45:33,547 --> 00:45:33,647 [zaza]: or 1003 00:45:33,841 --> 00:45:34,883 [john_aberth]: it could make you anemic 1004 00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:36,322 [zaza]: okay 1005 00:45:36,245 --> 00:45:42,095 [john_aberth]: if you let too much blood but you know other doctors advised against bleeding to 1006 00:45:42,135 --> 00:45:48,123 [john_aberth]: that extent to the point that a weekend patients but you know the belief was 1007 00:45:48,183 --> 00:45:52,707 [john_aberth]: that this was letting out the plague poison or was letting out the bad humors 1008 00:45:52,747 --> 00:46:02,944 [john_aberth]: of the body but obviously you know that wasn't an effective treatment so m and 1009 00:46:03,365 --> 00:46:07,672 [john_aberth]: if you think about the instruments that they were using how they didn't have particularly 1010 00:46:07,752 --> 00:46:08,353 [john_aberth]: good hygiene 1011 00:46:08,778 --> 00:46:09,019 [zaza]: oh 1012 00:46:08,954 --> 00:46:11,258 [john_aberth]: it actually may have infected people if you're using the 1013 00:46:11,177 --> 00:46:11,298 [zaza]: yeah 1014 00:46:11,298 --> 00:46:13,143 [john_aberth]: same instruments to several people 1015 00:46:13,742 --> 00:46:17,013 [zaza]: okay wow so infection and sebsis was probably 1016 00:46:17,002 --> 00:46:17,143 [john_aberth]: yeah 1017 00:46:17,073 --> 00:46:17,334 [zaza]: common 1018 00:46:17,365 --> 00:46:17,566 [john_aberth]: right 1019 00:46:17,395 --> 00:46:17,656 [zaza]: as well 1020 00:46:18,330 --> 00:46:18,531 [john_aberth]: right 1021 00:46:18,679 --> 00:46:20,103 [zaza]: um did they figure 1022 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:20,242 [john_aberth]: another 1023 00:46:20,163 --> 00:46:20,364 [zaza]: out the 1024 00:46:20,343 --> 00:46:20,644 [john_aberth]: common 1025 00:46:20,424 --> 00:46:20,866 [zaza]: benefits 1026 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:22,060 [john_aberth]: i 1027 00:46:22,110 --> 00:46:22,171 [zaza]: go 1028 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:22,200 [john_aberth]: am 1029 00:46:22,232 --> 00:46:22,394 [zaza]: ahead 1030 00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:22,521 [john_aberth]: just going 1031 00:46:22,435 --> 00:46:22,638 [zaza]: sorry 1032 00:46:22,561 --> 00:46:22,761 [john_aberth]: to say 1033 00:46:23,438 --> 00:46:24,318 [zaza]: yeah 1034 00:46:23,483 --> 00:46:27,329 [john_aberth]: another common treatment was that if you get boobos which is the most common symptom 1035 00:46:28,271 --> 00:46:33,860 [john_aberth]: symptom of bubonic plague you get swellings in the groin which is most frequent or 1036 00:46:34,020 --> 00:46:38,447 [john_aberth]: in the arm pits or in the neck region the neck was the least frequent 1037 00:46:39,048 --> 00:46:43,957 [john_aberth]: place to get boobs but if you got a swelling doctors would also cut open 1038 00:46:44,037 --> 00:46:49,286 [john_aberth]: that the boole at swelling to try to release the poison that was believed to 1039 00:46:49,346 --> 00:46:55,656 [john_aberth]: be contained there in and one doctor this was blassis of barcelona who was physician 1040 00:46:56,097 --> 00:47:01,105 [john_aberth]: to ken martin of arigonins and he he got plague himself he got a swelling 1041 00:47:01,586 --> 00:47:05,192 [john_aberth]: on the right side of his going and the next day another swelling on the 1042 00:47:05,232 --> 00:47:10,481 [john_aberth]: left side of his groin and he decided to evacuate that swelling on the right 1043 00:47:10,561 --> 00:47:15,008 [john_aberth]: side and it was he had his teacher cut it open and he says 1044 00:47:15,078 --> 00:47:15,320 [zaza]: oh 1045 00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:23,022 [john_aberth]: that his fever was immediately relieved upon cutting open the boil and so he according 1046 00:47:23,062 --> 00:47:28,391 [john_aberth]: to him it worked because the plague poison which was nowhere in the body except 1047 00:47:28,451 --> 00:47:35,783 [john_aberth]: in the swelling he said was immediately relieved but you know in in terms during 1048 00:47:35,863 --> 00:47:40,791 [john_aberth]: the so called third pandemical plague at the turn of the twentieth century in india 1049 00:47:41,733 --> 00:47:48,302 [john_aberth]: british doctors found that cutting open the it was counter productive you know it very 1050 00:47:48,382 --> 00:47:55,028 [john_aberth]: often resulted in infection and sebsus as you mentioned you know it was it actually 1051 00:47:55,749 --> 00:48:01,598 [john_aberth]: did did more harm than good in terms of trying to alleviate the symptoms of 1052 00:48:01,658 --> 00:48:07,828 [john_aberth]: plague it was best left to its own devices to sometimes these spoils would separate 1053 00:48:07,888 --> 00:48:11,686 [john_aberth]: or burst ope on their own usually in the second week of symptoms 1054 00:48:12,828 --> 00:48:12,908 [zaza]: um 1055 00:48:12,893 --> 00:48:12,995 [john_aberth]: so 1056 00:48:13,490 --> 00:48:13,770 [zaza]: once you 1057 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:14,623 [john_aberth]: oh 1058 00:48:14,833 --> 00:48:16,476 [zaza]: got to play what were your chances 1059 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:24,992 [john_aberth]: um people could recover naturally from bubonic plague that was the most common form of 1060 00:48:25,092 --> 00:48:28,337 [john_aberth]: plague but it is estimated that you know 1061 00:48:28,683 --> 00:48:28,826 [zaza]: yeah 1062 00:48:29,339 --> 00:48:29,640 [john_aberth]: between 1063 00:48:29,568 --> 00:48:29,588 [zaza]: m 1064 00:48:30,201 --> 00:48:36,700 [john_aberth]: ten to forty percent of people could survive boni plague on their own um 1065 00:48:36,528 --> 00:48:37,428 [zaza]: yeah 1066 00:48:37,321 --> 00:48:41,789 [john_aberth]: you know especially if you had a separation of the boil for example that was 1067 00:48:41,849 --> 00:48:47,098 [john_aberth]: a sign that the plague was leaving your body so you know if the bacteria 1068 00:48:47,178 --> 00:48:52,707 [john_aberth]: was contained within the limp glands which is your part of your body's immune system 1069 00:48:53,689 --> 00:49:00,560 [john_aberth]: defense system you know you could survive but you know if the plague might waded 1070 00:49:00,620 --> 00:49:05,328 [john_aberth]: into the blood stream then you could get you get septasemia and then you were 1071 00:49:05,869 --> 00:49:11,639 [john_aberth]: sure to die there were two other forms of plague demonic plague was a hundred 1072 00:49:11,679 --> 00:49:18,072 [john_aberth]: percent and so was septasemic plague which was a direct invasion of bacturi into the 1073 00:49:18,112 --> 00:49:21,980 [john_aberth]: blood stream and that was also a hundred percent fatal so 1074 00:49:22,258 --> 00:49:23,643 [zaza]: so so what 1075 00:49:23,544 --> 00:49:24,948 [john_aberth]: you didn't have any chance there 1076 00:49:26,659 --> 00:49:29,444 [zaza]: not to be too gruesome but what 1077 00:49:29,460 --> 00:49:29,806 [john_aberth]: oh 1078 00:49:29,544 --> 00:49:30,646 [zaza]: happened i mean once 1079 00:49:30,630 --> 00:49:30,650 [john_aberth]: m 1080 00:49:30,686 --> 00:49:31,447 [zaza]: you got the plague 1081 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,420 [john_aberth]: yeah 1082 00:49:32,469 --> 00:49:36,836 [zaza]: how did probably not the best way to go right what happened how 1083 00:49:36,849 --> 00:49:36,870 [john_aberth]: m 1084 00:49:36,896 --> 00:49:39,824 [zaza]: did people actually dion and how long did it last 1085 00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:42,471 [john_aberth]: well in the most common form 1086 00:49:42,768 --> 00:49:42,871 [zaza]: ye 1087 00:49:43,292 --> 00:49:50,039 [john_aberth]: bubonic plague it took about a week for the bacteria to multiply inside the body 1088 00:49:51,488 --> 00:49:51,849 [zaza]: so what were 1089 00:49:51,863 --> 00:49:52,164 [john_aberth]: before 1090 00:49:51,909 --> 00:49:52,190 [zaza]: the first 1091 00:49:52,225 --> 00:49:52,325 [john_aberth]: the 1092 00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:53,194 [zaza]: symptoms for example 1093 00:49:54,310 --> 00:49:58,501 [john_aberth]: so the first immediate symptoms were high fever 1094 00:49:58,197 --> 00:49:58,218 [zaza]: m 1095 00:49:58,721 --> 00:50:00,505 [john_aberth]: usually headaches 1096 00:50:00,702 --> 00:50:00,723 [zaza]: a 1097 00:50:00,746 --> 00:50:10,653 [john_aberth]: chills um basically symptoms very similar to u to flow for example you know you 1098 00:50:10,834 --> 00:50:15,602 [john_aberth]: had a response to this invasion of a micro an ism in your body so 1099 00:50:15,722 --> 00:50:25,479 [john_aberth]: high fever sweats chills headache those were the common symptoms reported by doctors of people 1100 00:50:26,550 --> 00:50:31,318 [john_aberth]: when they first got the disease and septasemic plague you you could die very quickly 1101 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:39,111 [john_aberth]: you know modern up break of septasemic plague occurred in colombo in modern day srelanca 1102 00:50:39,912 --> 00:50:43,859 [john_aberth]: in turn of the twentieth century and it was said that you got fever in 1103 00:50:43,899 --> 00:50:45,321 [john_aberth]: the morning and death in the evening 1104 00:50:46,179 --> 00:50:46,501 [zaza]: oh wow 1105 00:50:46,783 --> 00:50:48,266 [john_aberth]: typically people typically died 1106 00:50:48,291 --> 00:50:48,392 [zaza]: who 1107 00:50:48,326 --> 00:50:55,036 [john_aberth]: in fifteen hours so that was very quick m u a numonic plague you you 1108 00:50:55,076 --> 00:51:01,687 [john_aberth]: would die within two days of being infected and you know that was spread by 1109 00:51:01,887 --> 00:51:06,255 [john_aberth]: air born droplet so as it could be spread person in person although i should 1110 00:51:06,335 --> 00:51:13,266 [john_aberth]: mention that you know plague bacteria are a thousand times larger than viruses so it's 1111 00:51:13,407 --> 00:51:21,252 [john_aberth]: much less infectious the covid then the corona virus for example but you died in 1112 00:51:21,312 --> 00:51:25,158 [john_aberth]: two days and you usually spit up blood you coughed up blood a lot of 1113 00:51:25,218 --> 00:51:26,781 [john_aberth]: blood because there's 1114 00:51:26,718 --> 00:51:26,980 [zaza]: yeah 1115 00:51:26,961 --> 00:51:33,294 [john_aberth]: there's bleeding going on in the lungs and so you die gasp for air in 1116 00:51:33,354 --> 00:51:36,785 [john_aberth]: two days and that's a horrible way to die but 1117 00:51:36,652 --> 00:51:36,913 [zaza]: and that 1118 00:51:36,966 --> 00:51:37,347 [john_aberth]: in the most 1119 00:51:37,274 --> 00:51:37,414 [zaza]: which 1120 00:51:37,407 --> 00:51:37,588 [john_aberth]: cot 1121 00:51:37,494 --> 00:51:40,422 [zaza]: one was the yeah which one is the most common exactly which one was the 1122 00:51:40,462 --> 00:51:41,344 [zaza]: most common variant 1123 00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:41,401 [john_aberth]: the most 1124 00:51:41,444 --> 00:51:41,504 [zaza]: of 1125 00:51:41,461 --> 00:51:41,761 [john_aberth]: common 1126 00:51:41,544 --> 00:51:41,845 [zaza]: the three 1127 00:51:41,821 --> 00:51:47,731 [john_aberth]: was bubonic form bubonic plague and you typically died in three to five days of 1128 00:51:47,791 --> 00:51:53,741 [john_aberth]: that of getting symptoms you you got the swellings or the boils typically in the 1129 00:51:53,781 --> 00:51:59,070 [john_aberth]: growing you know three quarters of the time two thirds two thirds and three quarters 1130 00:51:59,150 --> 00:52:00,733 [john_aberth]: of the time you get boils on the growing 1131 00:52:01,347 --> 00:52:01,368 [zaza]: m 1132 00:52:01,955 --> 00:52:04,820 [john_aberth]: about quarter of the time you get swelling in the the 1133 00:52:05,118 --> 00:52:05,138 [zaza]: m 1134 00:52:06,261 --> 00:52:10,965 [john_aberth]: h in the arm pit rather and then about ten percent of the time you 1135 00:52:11,005 --> 00:52:17,780 [john_aberth]: get a swelling in the neck ten percent of cases but in that case you 1136 00:52:17,901 --> 00:52:23,490 [john_aberth]: also the swelling was very painful the boil was very painful you can imagine cutting 1137 00:52:23,590 --> 00:52:29,079 [john_aberth]: open and cutting into one would be very painful so that was you know that 1138 00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:35,225 [john_aberth]: was horrible way to die too and and perhaps a large part of the horror 1139 00:52:35,966 --> 00:52:40,751 [john_aberth]: of this of dying from this disease was that if you were abandoned during the 1140 00:52:40,791 --> 00:52:45,961 [john_aberth]: disease if your family left you alone to die you know you have no 1141 00:52:46,042 --> 00:52:46,249 [zaza]: people 1142 00:52:46,101 --> 00:52:50,348 [john_aberth]: food or water so you also you know you could die of hunger or thirst 1143 00:52:51,310 --> 00:52:56,278 [john_aberth]: um you know perhaps before you died of of the symptoms of the disease but 1144 00:52:56,599 --> 00:53:01,707 [john_aberth]: you know you would basically die in three to five days and you know these 1145 00:53:01,767 --> 00:53:06,825 [john_aberth]: swellings were very painful and you know that was that was a horrible way to 1146 00:53:06,885 --> 00:53:07,407 [john_aberth]: go as well 1147 00:53:08,688 --> 00:53:13,793 [zaza]: so what in this bubonic variant what killed you in the end then was it 1148 00:53:14,174 --> 00:53:16,597 [zaza]: the fever the infection itself or 1149 00:53:17,601 --> 00:53:24,112 [john_aberth]: yeah i mean you know typically in thirty five to forty per cent of cases 1150 00:53:24,252 --> 00:53:28,860 [john_aberth]: the bacteria would break out of the limp notes and enter the blood dream of 1151 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,788 [john_aberth]: the body and then you basically it would invade every organ so you have massive 1152 00:53:33,868 --> 00:53:35,471 [john_aberth]: organ failure taking 1153 00:53:35,361 --> 00:53:35,382 [zaza]: h 1154 00:53:35,551 --> 00:53:41,020 [john_aberth]: place in every part of the body your heart of course with vail liver lungs 1155 00:53:41,521 --> 00:53:43,024 [john_aberth]: you know so you have 1156 00:53:43,071 --> 00:53:43,273 [zaza]: okay 1157 00:53:43,104 --> 00:53:46,309 [john_aberth]: massive organ failure and you just succumbed to that 1158 00:53:46,851 --> 00:53:46,872 [zaza]: m 1159 00:53:48,533 --> 00:53:49,254 [john_aberth]: or you know you 1160 00:53:49,308 --> 00:53:49,509 [zaza]: yeah 1161 00:53:49,314 --> 00:53:57,744 [john_aberth]: might you might die of gang or sepsus if the swelling the bobo burst open 1162 00:53:57,864 --> 00:54:02,088 [john_aberth]: and it got infected and so forth so yeah it was not a nice way 1163 00:54:02,148 --> 00:54:02,749 [john_aberth]: to die at all 1164 00:54:04,528 --> 00:54:07,252 [zaza]: none of the variants sound particularly 1165 00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:08,180 [john_aberth]: no 1166 00:54:09,615 --> 00:54:09,975 [zaza]: pleasant 1167 00:54:09,722 --> 00:54:10,323 [john_aberth]: no play 1168 00:54:10,256 --> 00:54:10,856 [zaza]: i have to say 1169 00:54:11,625 --> 00:54:12,405 [john_aberth]: playin bacteria 1170 00:54:12,119 --> 00:54:12,541 [zaza]: horrible 1171 00:54:12,466 --> 00:54:16,791 [john_aberth]: has been called one of the deadliest bacteria known to man so 1172 00:54:16,702 --> 00:54:17,388 [zaza]: hm 1173 00:54:17,032 --> 00:54:23,527 [john_aberth]: yeah it's you know it causes you know very very severe symptoms that kill pretty 1174 00:54:23,588 --> 00:54:23,848 [john_aberth]: quickly 1175 00:54:25,048 --> 00:54:28,332 [zaza]: if we stay with medieval doctors just for a second longer 1176 00:54:28,690 --> 00:54:28,854 [john_aberth]: yeah 1177 00:54:29,093 --> 00:54:33,141 [zaza]: did they figure out the benefits of quarantine back then 1178 00:54:33,941 --> 00:54:38,909 [john_aberth]: yes i mean they did try that from the very beginning in fact of the 1179 00:54:39,290 --> 00:54:44,679 [john_aberth]: black death from you know beginning in thirteen forty eight cities like pistoia 1180 00:54:44,088 --> 00:54:44,108 [zaza]: m 1181 00:54:44,879 --> 00:54:53,093 [john_aberth]: in ly and in florence and italy they did try to you know quarantine as 1182 00:54:53,634 --> 00:54:59,463 [john_aberth]: you know the term quarantine comes from the fifteenth century from current forty days of 1183 00:54:59,543 --> 00:55:06,295 [john_aberth]: quarantine which was first implemented by ragusa in the in the city of modern day 1184 00:55:06,415 --> 00:55:08,258 [john_aberth]: city of nebradebrab nick in 1185 00:55:09,110 --> 00:55:09,455 [zaza]: crache 1186 00:55:09,380 --> 00:55:11,003 [john_aberth]: ah in the slava lands 1187 00:55:11,738 --> 00:55:11,859 [zaza]: yeah 1188 00:55:11,744 --> 00:55:17,013 [john_aberth]: and and then also venice in italy also was among the first to do that 1189 00:55:17,093 --> 00:55:21,861 [john_aberth]: as well but that that was in the fifteenth century but you know even before 1190 00:55:21,921 --> 00:55:27,730 [john_aberth]: them from the very first outbreak cities would try to isolate themselves basically we have 1191 00:55:27,871 --> 00:55:33,500 [john_aberth]: actual ordinances surviving from pistoia which specify that no one was to come in out 1192 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:37,747 [john_aberth]: of the city um you know no one was to bring any goods from any 1193 00:55:38,428 --> 00:55:42,876 [john_aberth]: anywhere else into the city no one was to leave the city so that was 1194 00:55:42,956 --> 00:55:50,463 [john_aberth]: an attempt to effectively quarantine um but you know it basically didn't really work part 1195 00:55:50,503 --> 00:55:54,828 [john_aberth]: of the reason why it didn't work was because almost everyone needed grain they needed 1196 00:55:54,928 --> 00:56:01,047 [john_aberth]: food to eat and to live so you know you weren't you know you couldn't 1197 00:56:01,107 --> 00:56:07,275 [john_aberth]: have an embargo on grain you know that you know that had to still come 1198 00:56:07,335 --> 00:56:08,877 [john_aberth]: into the city to feed people 1199 00:56:09,528 --> 00:56:09,948 [zaza]: and of course 1200 00:56:09,798 --> 00:56:09,898 [john_aberth]: so 1201 00:56:09,988 --> 00:56:11,910 [zaza]: they did know that you know with 1202 00:56:11,813 --> 00:56:11,993 [john_aberth]: yeah 1203 00:56:12,450 --> 00:56:14,212 [zaza]: each shipment from central asia 1204 00:56:15,302 --> 00:56:15,404 [john_aberth]: ah 1205 00:56:15,573 --> 00:56:18,596 [zaza]: they're potentially bringing in more more infected i mean 1206 00:56:18,650 --> 00:56:18,810 [john_aberth]: well 1207 00:56:18,656 --> 00:56:19,116 [zaza]: more rats 1208 00:56:18,870 --> 00:56:19,311 [john_aberth]: exactly 1209 00:56:19,276 --> 00:56:19,417 [zaza]: that 1210 00:56:19,351 --> 00:56:19,591 [john_aberth]: you know 1211 00:56:19,557 --> 00:56:19,797 [zaza]: carry 1212 00:56:19,651 --> 00:56:22,877 [john_aberth]: the shipment of grain contained the rats too that were 1213 00:56:22,888 --> 00:56:23,029 [zaza]: yeah 1214 00:56:22,937 --> 00:56:28,887 [john_aberth]: infected and the fleas the fleas living on the rats were also infected in fact 1215 00:56:28,927 --> 00:56:35,901 [john_aberth]: the fleas could live independently rats on grain so you're importing that and you important 1216 00:56:35,981 --> 00:56:41,591 [john_aberth]: plague really i think the difference comes when plague begins to die out is when 1217 00:56:42,372 --> 00:56:47,240 [john_aberth]: you know this kind of quaranteam becomes more effective and the reason why i comes 1218 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:55,113 [john_aberth]: more effective because of what are called communication networks networks of communication that emerged among 1219 00:56:55,534 --> 00:57:01,604 [john_aberth]: the cities of europe they began to to communicate with each other about where the 1220 00:57:01,704 --> 00:57:06,572 [john_aberth]: plague was coming from you know where did the plague originate where was it spread 1221 00:57:06,632 --> 00:57:12,644 [john_aberth]: into and how you know you know therefore they could avoid any shipments from that 1222 00:57:13,666 --> 00:57:19,551 [john_aberth]: specific place and still get needed shipments from other places that were not infected so 1223 00:57:19,652 --> 00:57:27,595 [john_aberth]: that made a difference because then you could target your quarantine to where infection was 1224 00:57:27,676 --> 00:57:34,483 [john_aberth]: actually coming from and still survive and in that way they were able to shut 1225 00:57:34,584 --> 00:57:41,655 [john_aberth]: down you know the pandemics before they were spreading before they could spread from city 1226 00:57:41,756 --> 00:57:47,445 [john_aberth]: to city you see so that that became much more effective form of quarantine when 1227 00:57:47,786 --> 00:57:53,555 [john_aberth]: cities began talking to each other and and countries began communicating with each other in 1228 00:57:53,675 --> 00:57:57,942 [john_aberth]: terms of where the you know where the it was coming from where it was 1229 00:57:57,962 --> 00:58:01,867 [john_aberth]: spreading to and so forth and that's exactly what we do today with the world 1230 00:58:01,927 --> 00:58:04,321 [john_aberth]: health organization you know 1231 00:58:04,393 --> 00:58:05,088 [zaza]: hm 1232 00:58:04,541 --> 00:58:09,609 [john_aberth]: we tried to determine where disease starts you know the corona virus is a perfect 1233 00:58:09,689 --> 00:58:15,960 [john_aberth]: example i mean part of the problem was that china didn't communicate you know from 1234 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:22,125 [john_aberth]: the very beginning that there was this you know the disease emerging we found out 1235 00:58:22,205 --> 00:58:28,682 [john_aberth]: later but you know then we we tried to gain more information from china that's 1236 00:58:28,742 --> 00:58:33,410 [john_aberth]: the keys to get information information is power of course and it can help you 1237 00:58:33,510 --> 00:58:39,279 [john_aberth]: in terms of determining where the plague where the disease is and where it's coming 1238 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:44,868 [john_aberth]: from and how to the best target your quarante measures to avoid it 1239 00:58:45,799 --> 00:58:47,284 [zaza]: and these sort of networks 1240 00:58:47,580 --> 00:58:47,921 [john_aberth]: oh 1241 00:58:48,439 --> 00:58:51,309 [zaza]: we're established immediately during this first wave already 1242 00:58:51,470 --> 00:58:51,571 [john_aberth]: no 1243 00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:53,255 [zaza]: and no okay later on 1244 00:58:53,290 --> 00:58:56,175 [john_aberth]: no that's the point i mean these networks only emerge later 1245 00:58:56,778 --> 00:58:56,899 [zaza]: yeah 1246 00:58:56,796 --> 00:59:01,484 [john_aberth]: through play controls that were being implemented gradually over the centuries 1247 00:59:02,313 --> 00:59:02,514 [zaza]: okay 1248 00:59:02,466 --> 00:59:06,192 [john_aberth]: you know a lot of these play controls really only coming to being in the 1249 00:59:06,252 --> 00:59:11,861 [john_aberth]: fifteenth century in place of like florence florence was an innovator in terms of play 1250 00:59:12,001 --> 00:59:19,153 [john_aberth]: controls where you know you you automatically established a certain um you know measures in 1251 00:59:19,213 --> 00:59:27,567 [john_aberth]: response to disease this could include isolation of victims disinfection of houses where plague occurred 1252 00:59:28,309 --> 00:59:34,476 [john_aberth]: and so for um but you know this this is something that happens gradually um 1253 00:59:34,917 --> 00:59:40,506 [john_aberth]: and development of communications is something that goes hand in hand with the emergence of 1254 00:59:41,247 --> 00:59:43,912 [john_aberth]: of centralized monarchies that is occurring throughout europe 1255 00:59:44,704 --> 00:59:45,318 [zaza]: hm 1256 00:59:44,713 --> 00:59:46,897 [john_aberth]: as we head into the early modern era so 1257 00:59:47,031 --> 00:59:47,658 [zaza]: hm 1258 00:59:48,299 --> 00:59:52,967 [john_aberth]: you know this is something that really only emerges in the early modern period where 1259 00:59:53,067 --> 00:59:55,865 [john_aberth]: these play controls become fully effective i believe 1260 00:59:56,541 --> 00:59:56,561 [zaza]: m 1261 00:59:57,552 --> 01:00:01,618 [john_aberth]: according to the research of paul slack you know that this is where you know 1262 01:00:01,698 --> 01:00:06,967 [john_aberth]: play controls become effective and you connectories correlate them with the decline of epidemics 1263 01:00:08,028 --> 01:00:12,522 [zaza]: yeah one of the most striking phenomena during the 1264 01:00:12,540 --> 01:00:12,760 [john_aberth]: oh 1265 01:00:12,562 --> 01:00:18,119 [zaza]: plague and there are many that to us now seem like you know some sort 1266 01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:20,209 [zaza]: of something out of a horror 1267 01:00:20,231 --> 01:00:20,393 [john_aberth]: yeah 1268 01:00:20,269 --> 01:00:22,653 [zaza]: movie are the so called 1269 01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:23,060 [john_aberth]: m 1270 01:00:23,394 --> 01:00:26,199 [zaza]: flagulants i hope i said that correctly really 1271 01:00:26,091 --> 01:00:26,272 [john_aberth]: yeah 1272 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,326 [zaza]: rely religious zealots forming processions whipping themselves 1273 01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:31,650 [john_aberth]: yeah 1274 01:00:31,087 --> 01:00:32,610 [zaza]: in streets how did 1275 01:00:32,589 --> 01:00:32,610 [john_aberth]: m 1276 01:00:32,650 --> 01:00:36,877 [zaza]: this movement for lack of a better word come about and what was their aim 1277 01:00:38,550 --> 01:00:42,257 [john_aberth]: well the flagulents are really misunderstood i believe and 1278 01:00:42,290 --> 01:00:42,330 [zaza]: m 1279 01:00:42,557 --> 01:00:47,405 [john_aberth]: there has been some new research or new evidence that has emerged in the past 1280 01:00:47,485 --> 01:00:50,370 [john_aberth]: few decades about the flagulence that's really quite teresting 1281 01:00:50,988 --> 01:00:51,209 [zaza]: oh 1282 01:00:51,312 --> 01:00:57,282 [john_aberth]: you know the typical popular image of the flagelans is as you mentioned a radical 1283 01:00:58,003 --> 01:01:03,352 [john_aberth]: you know craze group that talked about the end of the world and that whipped 1284 01:01:03,392 --> 01:01:03,893 [john_aberth]: themselves 1285 01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:03,461 [zaza]: a 1286 01:01:03,973 --> 01:01:12,807 [john_aberth]: into a frenzy and inspired frenzied response from onlookers um you know very emotional and 1287 01:01:13,368 --> 01:01:15,272 [john_aberth]: out of control the reality 1288 01:01:15,168 --> 01:01:15,978 [zaza]: yeah 1289 01:01:16,113 --> 01:01:23,846 [john_aberth]: is that flagellants were very coriographed they were very very organized and they were very 1290 01:01:24,988 --> 01:01:31,038 [john_aberth]: they were trying to at a specific response i mean these were not these were 1291 01:01:31,118 --> 01:01:37,969 [john_aberth]: not just rag tag bunch of people going around whipping themselves this is very regimented 1292 01:01:38,530 --> 01:01:44,600 [john_aberth]: very controlled um you know very orderly in fact and one of the reasons why 1293 01:01:44,721 --> 01:01:49,108 [john_aberth]: i say that is that we have a new piece of evidence that has emerged 1294 01:01:49,749 --> 01:01:54,896 [john_aberth]: first birds in two thousand and three which is called a flatulent scroll this this 1295 01:01:55,017 --> 01:02:00,953 [john_aberth]: comes from the low countries uh and this was a scroll that's only three and 1296 01:02:01,033 --> 01:02:06,675 [john_aberth]: a half inches wide three and a half inches wide and eight feet long and 1297 01:02:06,775 --> 01:02:07,396 [john_aberth]: it consists 1298 01:02:07,218 --> 01:02:08,478 [zaza]: oh 1299 01:02:07,517 --> 01:02:12,645 [john_aberth]: of four strips of parchment sewn together and was tightly rolled up into a ball 1300 01:02:13,126 --> 01:02:14,468 [john_aberth]: meant to be carried in a pouch 1301 01:02:15,718 --> 01:02:16,158 [zaza]: i'm sorry 1302 01:02:16,104 --> 01:02:16,631 [john_aberth]: and this could 1303 01:02:16,719 --> 01:02:19,402 [zaza]: i think in centimeters and meters and stuff like 1304 01:02:19,932 --> 01:02:20,132 [john_aberth]: okay 1305 01:02:20,624 --> 01:02:22,866 [zaza]: my american you know system is a bit hazy 1306 01:02:23,798 --> 01:02:25,000 [john_aberth]: so you know three 1307 01:02:24,982 --> 01:02:25,147 [zaza]: okay 1308 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:25,461 [john_aberth]: and a half 1309 01:02:25,518 --> 01:02:26,238 [zaza]: oh 1310 01:02:25,561 --> 01:02:26,823 [john_aberth]: inches i don't 1311 01:02:26,788 --> 01:02:26,931 [zaza]: yeah 1312 01:02:26,864 --> 01:02:29,828 [john_aberth]: know how that how that translates into centimeters 1313 01:02:30,539 --> 01:02:30,739 [zaza]: okay 1314 01:02:30,591 --> 01:02:31,398 [john_aberth]: you know it's it's 1315 01:02:31,339 --> 01:02:31,420 [zaza]: you 1316 01:02:31,479 --> 01:02:31,680 [john_aberth]: like 1317 01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:31,840 [zaza]: said three 1318 01:02:31,741 --> 01:02:31,822 [john_aberth]: you 1319 01:02:31,860 --> 01:02:31,920 [zaza]: and 1320 01:02:31,862 --> 01:02:32,023 [john_aberth]: know 1321 01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:33,582 [zaza]: a half inches three 1322 01:02:33,590 --> 01:02:33,770 [john_aberth]: yeah 1323 01:02:34,302 --> 01:02:34,422 [zaza]: and 1324 01:02:34,371 --> 01:02:34,471 [john_aberth]: so 1325 01:02:34,563 --> 01:02:35,283 [zaza]: the half 1326 01:02:36,072 --> 01:02:37,054 [john_aberth]: you're talking about 1327 01:02:36,805 --> 01:02:37,265 [zaza]: in just 1328 01:02:37,174 --> 01:02:40,438 [john_aberth]: a very narrow strip of parchment here 1329 01:02:40,698 --> 01:02:44,755 [zaza]: all right so that's eight point eight nine centimeters all right 1330 01:02:44,850 --> 01:02:45,090 [john_aberth]: okay 1331 01:02:45,638 --> 01:02:46,428 [zaza]: yeah 1332 01:02:45,651 --> 01:02:45,931 [john_aberth]: okay 1333 01:02:46,568 --> 01:02:46,850 [zaza]: we got 1334 01:02:46,753 --> 01:02:46,873 [john_aberth]: so 1335 01:02:46,910 --> 01:02:46,971 [zaza]: it 1336 01:02:47,214 --> 01:02:47,494 [john_aberth]: you know 1337 01:02:48,648 --> 01:02:48,936 [zaza]: oh 1338 01:02:48,796 --> 01:02:55,668 [john_aberth]: this was designed to be portable to be carried from town to town so flaten 1339 01:02:55,608 --> 01:02:55,889 [zaza]: yes 1340 01:02:55,788 --> 01:02:57,310 [john_aberth]: company would go from town to town 1341 01:02:57,288 --> 01:02:57,389 [zaza]: ye 1342 01:02:57,751 --> 01:02:58,693 [john_aberth]: and they would take out the 1343 01:02:58,638 --> 01:02:58,819 [zaza]: yah 1344 01:02:58,773 --> 01:03:00,516 [john_aberth]: scroll and read from it and 1345 01:03:00,577 --> 01:03:00,618 [zaza]: ah 1346 01:03:00,856 --> 01:03:06,906 [john_aberth]: they had the whole litergy or ritual on that scroll so this scroll was you 1347 01:03:06,946 --> 01:03:13,237 [john_aberth]: know this litergy this ritual was very corgraphed was very regimented okay so when they 1348 01:03:13,317 --> 01:03:18,225 [john_aberth]: came to town they would procession to town two by two and then they would 1349 01:03:18,305 --> 01:03:24,736 [john_aberth]: form a circle in the market square the city that they came to and then 1350 01:03:25,117 --> 01:03:31,748 [john_aberth]: at a certain at a certain point and they would sing a song you know 1351 01:03:32,449 --> 01:03:38,599 [john_aberth]: a song about the passion or the crucifixion of christ and the flats saw themselves 1352 01:03:38,659 --> 01:03:44,188 [john_aberth]: as imitating that passion they were shedding their blood just as christ has shed his 1353 01:03:44,269 --> 01:03:49,878 [john_aberth]: blood for human kind and the idea is that by wiping themselves by shedding their 1354 01:03:49,938 --> 01:03:57,131 [john_aberth]: blood they would appease god's wrath and save everyone from the black death that's why 1355 01:03:57,793 --> 01:04:02,243 [john_aberth]: flagons were very popular and welcomed in town after town and they usually 1356 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:02,381 [zaza]: they 1357 01:04:02,283 --> 01:04:02,704 [john_aberth]: arrived 1358 01:04:02,481 --> 01:04:05,231 [zaza]: actually they had a little performance that they made 1359 01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:05,681 [john_aberth]: exactly 1360 01:04:05,352 --> 01:04:06,114 [zaza]: and performed an 1361 01:04:06,422 --> 01:04:11,591 [john_aberth]: this is a performance a ritual performance that was performed two to three times a 1362 01:04:11,651 --> 01:04:16,679 [john_aberth]: day for thirty three and a half days that's how long the flagulence plays to 1363 01:04:16,739 --> 01:04:20,686 [john_aberth]: be of a company for thirty three and a half days by legend that was 1364 01:04:20,766 --> 01:04:25,174 [john_aberth]: how long christ lived for thirty three and a half years so that's why thirty 1365 01:04:25,234 --> 01:04:26,175 [john_aberth]: three and a half days 1366 01:04:26,658 --> 01:04:27,120 [zaza]: but they were 1367 01:04:27,017 --> 01:04:27,117 [john_aberth]: so 1368 01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:27,581 [zaza]: actually 1369 01:04:27,297 --> 01:04:27,458 [john_aberth]: the 1370 01:04:27,681 --> 01:04:28,865 [zaza]: whipping themselves right 1371 01:04:29,911 --> 01:04:34,158 [john_aberth]: at certain points they were they weren't whipping themselves all the time but only at 1372 01:04:34,278 --> 01:04:39,807 [john_aberth]: certain points in the song when the is said for example now playly now lal 1373 01:04:39,887 --> 01:04:44,816 [john_aberth]: yourself for christ honor they would whip themselves okay but it was only it was 1374 01:04:44,876 --> 01:04:49,664 [john_aberth]: for not very long and it was only at certain points in the ritual and 1375 01:04:49,724 --> 01:04:54,011 [john_aberth]: then they would fall flat on the ground in the shape of a cross uh 1376 01:04:54,111 --> 01:04:58,398 [john_aberth]: you know now you know you know now that there would be a point at 1377 01:04:58,458 --> 01:05:04,208 [john_aberth]: the san where we all cross wise fall they would say they all fell down 1378 01:05:04,288 --> 01:05:09,096 [john_aberth]: in the state porfcra prostrate themselves on the ground and then rise up and with 1379 01:05:09,156 --> 01:05:15,266 [john_aberth]: themselves again and they did that three times so that was it as very organized 1380 01:05:15,467 --> 01:05:19,058 [john_aberth]: very ritualized so it's not spontaneous at all 1381 01:05:20,078 --> 01:05:20,158 [zaza]: so 1382 01:05:20,223 --> 01:05:20,384 [john_aberth]: and 1383 01:05:20,278 --> 01:05:21,040 [zaza]: more like a dance 1384 01:05:20,786 --> 01:05:20,906 [john_aberth]: the 1385 01:05:21,341 --> 01:05:23,908 [zaza]: like a highly coreographed dance routine 1386 01:05:23,491 --> 01:05:23,574 [john_aberth]: it 1387 01:05:24,469 --> 01:05:24,630 [zaza]: than 1388 01:05:24,551 --> 01:05:25,038 [john_aberth]: exactly 1389 01:05:24,931 --> 01:05:26,816 [zaza]: a spontaneous mob whipping 1390 01:05:27,641 --> 01:05:28,142 [john_aberth]: exactly 1391 01:05:27,668 --> 01:05:28,392 [zaza]: whipping themselves 1392 01:05:28,303 --> 01:05:28,523 [john_aberth]: yeah 1393 01:05:28,633 --> 01:05:28,854 [zaza]: okay 1394 01:05:29,044 --> 01:05:34,275 [john_aberth]: i mean that's the evidence of this flagulent scroll they actually had notation when they 1395 01:05:34,355 --> 01:05:39,162 [john_aberth]: had to fall to the ground in the shape of crosses marked on the scroll 1396 01:05:39,802 --> 01:05:46,208 [john_aberth]: so you know the evidence indicates that this was very very corgraphed very organized and 1397 01:05:46,268 --> 01:05:53,639 [john_aberth]: the whole idea behind it was to you know by this performance to make the 1398 01:05:53,719 --> 01:05:59,749 [john_aberth]: plague go away or prevent it from coming i mean usually the evidences that flags 1399 01:05:59,869 --> 01:06:04,801 [john_aberth]: came two towns before the plague arrived so the hope was that you know if 1400 01:06:04,861 --> 01:06:10,502 [john_aberth]: the flat stones performed the ceremony here plague won't come so that's why they were 1401 01:06:10,542 --> 01:06:16,773 [john_aberth]: very popular why they were welcomed with open arms by people and it was instead 1402 01:06:16,813 --> 01:06:24,205 [john_aberth]: of being you know preaching the end the world they were preaching salvation you know 1403 01:06:24,385 --> 01:06:29,975 [john_aberth]: we're going to save you from from the death from the black death so that 1404 01:06:30,035 --> 01:06:35,323 [john_aberth]: was the hope so you know it was that a very hopeful message rather than 1405 01:06:35,404 --> 01:06:40,051 [john_aberth]: a message of doom at the end of the world so you know that's why 1406 01:06:40,111 --> 01:06:44,919 [john_aberth]: the flagulance was so popular and you know that's very contrary to the popular image 1407 01:06:45,380 --> 01:06:50,629 [john_aberth]: they also what's interesting about the flagons too is that they had a rule for 1408 01:06:50,950 --> 01:06:56,479 [john_aberth]: for each company each company had a rule to live by for example you know 1409 01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:02,188 [john_aberth]: people had to get permission of a priest in order to join the flagulants and 1410 01:07:02,248 --> 01:07:07,197 [john_aberth]: they had to pledge to be part of the company for thirty three and f 1411 01:07:07,257 --> 01:07:12,626 [john_aberth]: days as i mentioned there they couldn't whip themselves to the point of death and 1412 01:07:12,726 --> 01:07:16,712 [john_aberth]: so on and so on so they had all these rules and it seems clear 1413 01:07:16,773 --> 01:07:22,702 [john_aberth]: that the idea was that this would become a kind of on fraternity or kind 1414 01:07:22,782 --> 01:07:29,582 [john_aberth]: of monastic order that perhaps would live on beyond the black death but of course 1415 01:07:30,244 --> 01:07:34,955 [john_aberth]: it was all shut down by the pope on october twentieth thirteen forty nine when 1416 01:07:34,995 --> 01:07:36,198 [john_aberth]: he suppressed the flanclnts 1417 01:07:39,711 --> 01:07:40,112 [john_aberth]: and that was 1418 01:07:40,137 --> 01:07:40,339 [zaza]: speak 1419 01:07:40,172 --> 01:07:41,577 [john_aberth]: basically the end of the movement 1420 01:07:42,409 --> 01:07:42,609 [zaza]: okay 1421 01:07:42,810 --> 01:07:42,971 [john_aberth]: yeah 1422 01:07:44,171 --> 01:07:47,096 [zaza]: speaking of kind of interesting phenomena i don't 1423 01:07:47,070 --> 01:07:47,290 [john_aberth]: yeah 1424 01:07:47,497 --> 01:07:52,545 [zaza]: really know if this is true but i remember reading somewhere that poland was kind 1425 01:07:52,585 --> 01:07:53,707 [zaza]: of the only country 1426 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:53,780 [john_aberth]: m 1427 01:07:53,888 --> 01:07:58,956 [zaza]: europe that was almost completely bi passed by the black death and that's because 1428 01:07:58,950 --> 01:07:59,230 [john_aberth]: oh 1429 01:07:59,056 --> 01:08:01,741 [zaza]: for some reason there were a lot of stray 1430 01:08:01,837 --> 01:08:01,857 [john_aberth]: h 1431 01:08:01,921 --> 01:08:02,582 [zaza]: cats there 1432 01:08:02,979 --> 01:08:03,000 [john_aberth]: h 1433 01:08:03,083 --> 01:08:04,345 [zaza]: and that kept the 1434 01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:05,280 [john_aberth]: yeah 1435 01:08:04,385 --> 01:08:09,239 [zaza]: population of rats minimum is that some sort of an urban legend or does it 1436 01:08:09,431 --> 01:08:09,593 [john_aberth]: yeah 1437 01:08:09,620 --> 01:08:10,684 [zaza]: contain a grain 1438 01:08:10,650 --> 01:08:10,957 [john_aberth]: yeah 1439 01:08:10,744 --> 01:08:11,246 [zaza]: of okay 1440 01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:15,686 [john_aberth]: yeah i don't think there's any truth to that but you know i've seen that 1441 01:08:15,766 --> 01:08:22,377 [john_aberth]: argument before that you know poland was by passed by the plague and and it 1442 01:08:22,417 --> 01:08:28,276 [john_aberth]: was said that the low country were lightly touched by the plague as well but 1443 01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:35,610 [john_aberth]: you know that's part of the problem of of the evidence just because there's a 1444 01:08:35,670 --> 01:08:41,600 [john_aberth]: lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't occur it's the saying the absence of and 1445 01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:44,360 [john_aberth]: this is not evidence of absence you 1446 01:08:44,383 --> 01:08:45,018 [zaza]: hm 1447 01:08:44,420 --> 01:08:50,556 [john_aberth]: know just because you have no evidence of people dying does not mean that plague 1448 01:08:50,596 --> 01:08:59,211 [john_aberth]: didn't come there and i have seen a recent argument that the environmental factors weren't 1449 01:08:59,972 --> 01:09:07,665 [john_aberth]: conducive to plague in poland but you know again you know that's i think that's 1450 01:09:07,705 --> 01:09:13,495 [john_aberth]: hard to prove that you know just because there's no evidence of something happening doesn't 1451 01:09:13,815 --> 01:09:19,008 [john_aberth]: mean that it didn't take place so that's a pretty shaky argument to say well 1452 01:09:19,710 --> 01:09:26,844 [john_aberth]: there's no evidence that play came to poland therefore plague didn't come there but in 1453 01:09:26,924 --> 01:09:27,787 [john_aberth]: terms of trade 1454 01:09:27,858 --> 01:09:28,548 [zaza]: yeah 1455 01:09:29,010 --> 01:09:32,896 [john_aberth]: well i mean if you look at england uh you know as i said the 1456 01:09:33,117 --> 01:09:39,147 [john_aberth]: most records come from england about mortalities during the black death and it's pretty clear 1457 01:09:39,227 --> 01:09:44,075 [john_aberth]: that everywhere in england was a fact even very isolated places in the north of 1458 01:09:44,175 --> 01:09:51,567 [john_aberth]: england for example where were impacted by the plague and had high mortalities so you 1459 01:09:51,607 --> 01:09:57,677 [john_aberth]: know you compare that too poland you know perhaps you know was more isolated than 1460 01:09:57,718 --> 01:10:01,985 [john_aberth]: other regions but that doesn't mean it wasn't it was spared the black death i 1461 01:10:02,065 --> 01:10:07,935 [john_aberth]: mean if it was i think what what is what's pretty clear is that leading 1462 01:10:08,015 --> 01:10:13,985 [john_aberth]: up to the black death pretty much all of europe was being into connected by 1463 01:10:14,145 --> 01:10:21,217 [john_aberth]: trade networks especially trading grain st everywhere needed imports of grain or wars exporting grain 1464 01:10:21,938 --> 01:10:28,890 [john_aberth]: so you know agriculture is becoming more specialized at this time and cities had to 1465 01:10:29,110 --> 01:10:34,679 [john_aberth]: supplied from the country side so there was a lot of of trade going on 1466 01:10:35,260 --> 01:10:41,130 [john_aberth]: and a lot of inter connecting ness in terms of that trade so i think 1467 01:10:41,170 --> 01:10:45,517 [john_aberth]: it's very hard to say that well you know one place like poland had trade 1468 01:10:45,597 --> 01:10:49,824 [john_aberth]: caps or you know was limited in its trade it's really hard to tell 1469 01:10:50,448 --> 01:10:50,811 [zaza]: uh 1470 01:10:50,686 --> 01:10:52,669 [john_aberth]: and i think it would be dangerous to assume that 1471 01:10:53,288 --> 01:10:54,189 [zaza]: okay so it's 1472 01:10:54,900 --> 01:10:55,123 [john_aberth]: yah 1473 01:10:54,910 --> 01:10:57,394 [zaza]: i mean it's not likely that this happened 1474 01:10:57,170 --> 01:10:57,350 [john_aberth]: yeah 1475 01:10:57,595 --> 01:10:58,436 [zaza]: at all okay 1476 01:10:58,311 --> 01:11:02,654 [john_aberth]: yeah i mean as i said if you look at one country england which has 1477 01:11:02,714 --> 01:11:04,996 [john_aberth]: the most records even isolated places 1478 01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:05,580 [zaza]: m 1479 01:11:05,817 --> 01:11:10,676 [john_aberth]: that you know had limited trade access we're still impacted by the 1480 01:11:10,668 --> 01:11:10,853 [zaza]: oh 1481 01:11:10,717 --> 01:11:13,547 [john_aberth]: black death and were you know very high mortalities 1482 01:11:14,378 --> 01:11:17,403 [zaza]: when do these kind of odd looking 1483 01:11:17,460 --> 01:11:17,701 [john_aberth]: oh 1484 01:11:18,044 --> 01:11:20,488 [zaza]: witch doctors appear you know with the mask and the 1485 01:11:20,451 --> 01:11:20,692 [john_aberth]: yeah 1486 01:11:20,568 --> 01:11:25,076 [zaza]: big something that looks like stanley cubic invented it like you know 1487 01:11:25,163 --> 01:11:25,405 [john_aberth]: right 1488 01:11:25,176 --> 01:11:27,301 [zaza]: that is char party or something like 1489 01:11:27,461 --> 01:11:27,923 [john_aberth]: yeah that's 1490 01:11:28,044 --> 01:11:28,224 [zaza]: where 1491 01:11:28,204 --> 01:11:28,365 [john_aberth]: that's 1492 01:11:28,264 --> 01:11:28,625 [zaza]: do these 1493 01:11:28,425 --> 01:11:28,747 [john_aberth]: from this 1494 01:11:29,538 --> 01:11:29,740 [zaza]: okay 1495 01:11:30,391 --> 01:11:33,516 [john_aberth]: yeah where does that come from that comes from the seventeenth century 1496 01:11:34,608 --> 01:11:34,870 [zaza]: okay 1497 01:11:34,678 --> 01:11:35,139 [john_aberth]: that first 1498 01:11:35,071 --> 01:11:35,152 [zaza]: so 1499 01:11:35,239 --> 01:11:35,640 [john_aberth]: emerges 1500 01:11:35,292 --> 01:11:35,836 [zaza]: wait later 1501 01:11:35,700 --> 01:11:38,144 [john_aberth]: that that that played costume right yeah 1502 01:11:38,698 --> 01:11:39,100 [zaza]: yeah yeah 1503 01:11:39,066 --> 01:11:45,416 [john_aberth]: the beak mask the purpose that mask by the way was not to act as 1504 01:11:45,556 --> 01:11:52,568 [john_aberth]: a as a mask today as a ventilator the purpose of the mask was that 1505 01:11:53,209 --> 01:11:58,576 [john_aberth]: used stuff sweet smelling herbs into the beak of the mask and those sweet smelling 1506 01:11:58,616 --> 01:12:05,135 [john_aberth]: herbs could ward off the stench of the plague uh award off the bad air 1507 01:12:05,615 --> 01:12:10,443 [john_aberth]: or corrupt air that was spreading the plague so that was the purpose behind the 1508 01:12:10,504 --> 01:12:17,277 [john_aberth]: mask was to provide a receptacle for sweet smelling herbs and in the middle ages 1509 01:12:18,340 --> 01:12:24,533 [john_aberth]: the equivalent was a smelling apple basically you know a cloth that was stuffed full 1510 01:12:24,574 --> 01:12:29,361 [john_aberth]: of herbs and then tied up into an apple shape and they would smell that 1511 01:12:29,542 --> 01:12:31,745 [john_aberth]: in front of their nose to try to ward 1512 01:12:31,708 --> 01:12:31,768 [zaza]: so 1513 01:12:31,826 --> 01:12:31,986 [john_aberth]: off 1514 01:12:31,828 --> 01:12:32,610 [zaza]: they were just walking 1515 01:12:32,427 --> 01:12:32,667 [john_aberth]: the bet 1516 01:12:32,670 --> 01:12:34,233 [zaza]: around with that at all times 1517 01:12:33,869 --> 01:12:34,049 [john_aberth]: yeah 1518 01:12:34,354 --> 01:12:35,416 [zaza]: or i mean okay 1519 01:12:35,380 --> 01:12:41,272 [john_aberth]: yeah it was like a holding up a handkerchief or now even it could be 1520 01:12:41,353 --> 01:12:46,884 [john_aberth]: simple as a rag dipping vinegar something that was fragrant that would ward off the 1521 01:12:46,924 --> 01:12:50,174 [john_aberth]: bad air in front of your nose so 1522 01:12:50,268 --> 01:12:50,529 [zaza]: so they 1523 01:12:50,457 --> 01:12:50,680 [john_aberth]: you know 1524 01:12:50,569 --> 01:12:50,910 [zaza]: believed 1525 01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:50,862 [john_aberth]: that 1526 01:12:51,311 --> 01:12:51,592 [zaza]: was that 1527 01:12:51,982 --> 01:12:52,142 [john_aberth]: yeah 1528 01:12:52,114 --> 01:12:54,040 [zaza]: just for the smell or did they actually believe 1529 01:12:53,940 --> 01:12:53,960 [john_aberth]: m 1530 01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:55,484 [zaza]: that that was also purifying 1531 01:12:55,230 --> 01:12:55,250 [john_aberth]: m 1532 01:12:55,525 --> 01:12:55,846 [zaza]: the air 1533 01:12:58,818 --> 01:12:58,999 [john_aberth]: it was 1534 01:12:59,238 --> 01:12:59,258 [zaza]: m 1535 01:12:59,942 --> 01:13:01,527 [john_aberth]: it was done to ward off the smell 1536 01:13:02,500 --> 01:13:03,168 [zaza]: hm 1537 01:13:03,150 --> 01:13:09,120 [john_aberth]: pretty much i don't think they had the expectation or the concept that it could 1538 01:13:09,180 --> 01:13:11,544 [john_aberth]: purify the air in any way um 1539 01:13:11,788 --> 01:13:12,378 [zaza]: hm 1540 01:13:12,425 --> 01:13:13,287 [john_aberth]: you know the idea 1541 01:13:13,248 --> 01:13:13,470 [zaza]: yeah 1542 01:13:13,407 --> 01:13:21,924 [john_aberth]: was that the sweet smells of the herbs would counteract the fowl or corrupt air 1543 01:13:22,525 --> 01:13:23,847 [john_aberth]: that was spreading the black death 1544 01:13:24,888 --> 01:13:25,189 [zaza]: oh 1545 01:13:25,564 --> 01:13:25,726 [john_aberth]: but 1546 01:13:28,059 --> 01:13:28,800 [zaza]: we know that during 1547 01:13:28,740 --> 01:13:28,760 [john_aberth]: m 1548 01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:30,002 [zaza]: times of upheaval 1549 01:13:29,810 --> 01:13:29,992 [john_aberth]: yeah 1550 01:13:30,283 --> 01:13:33,588 [zaza]: like the crusades for example anti semitism got even 1551 01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:33,620 [john_aberth]: m 1552 01:13:33,688 --> 01:13:36,293 [zaza]: worse in medieval europe right so while 1553 01:13:36,189 --> 01:13:36,210 [john_aberth]: m 1554 01:13:36,333 --> 01:13:37,394 [zaza]: preparing for this episode 1555 01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:37,370 [john_aberth]: m 1556 01:13:37,454 --> 01:13:39,258 [zaza]: i read that because of there 1557 01:13:39,660 --> 01:13:39,962 [john_aberth]: oh 1558 01:13:40,019 --> 01:13:45,608 [zaza]: hygeniic practices like regularly washing their hands jews had a lower 1559 01:13:45,459 --> 01:13:45,480 [john_aberth]: m 1560 01:13:45,668 --> 01:13:48,032 [zaza]: rate of infection which made the majority 1561 01:13:47,970 --> 01:13:47,990 [john_aberth]: m 1562 01:13:48,112 --> 01:13:49,234 [zaza]: population even 1563 01:13:49,116 --> 01:13:49,680 [john_aberth]: hm 1564 01:13:49,294 --> 01:13:50,055 [zaza]: more suspicious 1565 01:13:50,301 --> 01:13:50,401 [john_aberth]: oh 1566 01:13:50,376 --> 01:13:52,439 [zaza]: and then they accused of poisoning the wells 1567 01:13:52,289 --> 01:13:52,389 [john_aberth]: yeah 1568 01:13:52,559 --> 01:13:53,159 [zaza]: for example 1569 01:13:53,311 --> 01:13:53,352 [john_aberth]: hm 1570 01:13:53,780 --> 01:13:54,761 [zaza]: the jewish communities 1571 01:13:54,295 --> 01:13:54,496 [john_aberth]: yeah 1572 01:13:54,841 --> 01:13:56,082 [zaza]: have any sort of defense 1573 01:13:55,860 --> 01:13:56,080 [john_aberth]: yeah 1574 01:13:56,182 --> 01:13:57,563 [zaza]: or protection or were they 1575 01:13:57,627 --> 01:13:57,787 [john_aberth]: yeah 1576 01:13:57,644 --> 01:13:58,945 [zaza]: left completely at the mercy 1577 01:13:58,800 --> 01:13:58,820 [john_aberth]: m 1578 01:13:59,005 --> 01:14:00,947 [zaza]: of such violent paranoia and attacks 1579 01:14:00,630 --> 01:14:03,103 [john_aberth]: oh yeah that's an urban myth 1580 01:14:03,968 --> 01:14:04,170 [zaza]: okay 1581 01:14:04,551 --> 01:14:06,035 [john_aberth]: that's a legend that 1582 01:14:06,193 --> 01:14:06,888 [zaza]: hm 1583 01:14:06,235 --> 01:14:15,878 [john_aberth]: jews were somehow less susceptible in fact some some doctors some plague doctors commented that 1584 01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:21,360 [john_aberth]: you know and the jews themselves commented that they were in fact more susceptible to 1585 01:14:21,420 --> 01:14:26,930 [john_aberth]: the black death then christians because you know they were under the influence of saturn 1586 01:14:26,990 --> 01:14:32,779 [john_aberth]: which was an evil planet which was caused the corruption in the air through it 1587 01:14:33,281 --> 01:14:37,115 [john_aberth]: evil aspect but you know the 1588 01:14:37,458 --> 01:14:37,540 [zaza]: ye 1589 01:14:38,890 --> 01:14:42,316 [john_aberth]: and they also you know a lot of other commentators 1590 01:14:42,348 --> 01:14:43,248 [zaza]: yeah 1591 01:14:42,416 --> 01:14:46,704 [john_aberth]: including the pope pointed out that jews were dying in equal numbers the christians 1592 01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:55,990 [john_aberth]: so the idea of washing the hands they didn't really have a concept of hygiene 1593 01:14:56,050 --> 01:15:02,968 [john_aberth]: in that way you know many plague doctors advise watching the hands vinegar but the 1594 01:15:03,069 --> 01:15:09,397 [john_aberth]: idea behind that it was the whole the hands up to nose and mouth and 1595 01:15:09,677 --> 01:15:15,787 [john_aberth]: again that that order that smell would ward off the plague you know they didn't 1596 01:15:15,847 --> 01:15:21,784 [john_aberth]: have a concept of um you know screening out germs or anything like that or 1597 01:15:22,526 --> 01:15:27,197 [john_aberth]: or you know as you said filtering out germs they didn't have a concept of 1598 01:15:27,237 --> 01:15:34,139 [john_aberth]: that and they didn't really have a concept of of course washing the hands of 1599 01:15:34,219 --> 01:15:42,073 [john_aberth]: germs so but getting back to you know the jewish grams during the black death 1600 01:15:42,614 --> 01:15:48,428 [john_aberth]: i mean is estimated that about four hundred towns in the german kingdom were effected 1601 01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:51,864 [john_aberth]: had to attack upon the jews 1602 01:15:51,948 --> 01:15:52,150 [zaza]: yeah 1603 01:15:52,505 --> 01:15:58,876 [john_aberth]: by christians who were accused as you said of poisoning wells and therefore trying to 1604 01:15:58,936 --> 01:16:03,162 [john_aberth]: give the plague to christians and this goes back to my point about the poison 1605 01:16:03,242 --> 01:16:09,700 [john_aberth]: thesis that medieval doctors came up came up with to explain the plague you know 1606 01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:18,082 [john_aberth]: this was a scientific or rational explanation you know people were believed it was believed 1607 01:16:19,043 --> 01:16:25,128 [john_aberth]: even by the science in so called scientific community of the time that people could 1608 01:16:25,188 --> 01:16:34,042 [john_aberth]: be poisoned by the black death this would occur naturally in medieval doctors minds by 1609 01:16:34,983 --> 01:16:41,298 [john_aberth]: corrupt poisoned air that was spreading the disease community to community but in the case 1610 01:16:41,378 --> 01:16:47,204 [john_aberth]: of the jews it was believed this was artificial that this was man made or 1611 01:16:47,304 --> 01:16:48,046 [john_aberth]: human caused 1612 01:16:49,158 --> 01:16:49,279 [zaza]: ye 1613 01:16:50,110 --> 01:16:51,933 [john_aberth]: that you know humans were deliberately 1614 01:16:52,038 --> 01:16:52,159 [zaza]: ye 1615 01:16:52,454 --> 01:16:58,884 [john_aberth]: poison in the water and in fact one one dr alfonso de cordoba gave a 1616 01:16:58,944 --> 01:17:03,873 [john_aberth]: whole elaborate explanation of how one could even he's in the air by brewing a 1617 01:17:03,993 --> 01:17:08,500 [john_aberth]: special formula and the glass and four and then breaking that and four against some 1618 01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:13,989 [john_aberth]: stones and then the vapors would spread the plague to the city you want to 1619 01:17:14,090 --> 01:17:20,701 [john_aberth]: in fact so um you know it is a very small step from natural poisoning 1620 01:17:21,121 --> 01:17:26,956 [john_aberth]: to artificial or mad made poisoning if you believe plague is this bread by poisons 1621 01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:33,626 [john_aberth]: so you know this sort of provides some of the context about why people 1622 01:17:33,498 --> 01:17:34,158 [zaza]: yeah 1623 01:17:33,866 --> 01:17:42,049 [john_aberth]: blame the jews because this seemed to be a perfectly rational or reasonable explanation that 1624 01:17:42,310 --> 01:17:47,058 [john_aberth]: you know people could be poisoned and get the plague that way 1625 01:17:48,108 --> 01:17:48,355 [zaza]: oh 1626 01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:54,990 [john_aberth]: and of course the jews were naturally suspected by christians because they were believed to 1627 01:17:55,070 --> 01:18:00,660 [john_aberth]: be the ones who betrayed christ to pontius pilate which resulted in this crew a 1628 01:18:00,740 --> 01:18:07,992 [john_aberth]: fiction that they were the enemies of christianity so they were the natural suspects but 1629 01:18:08,052 --> 01:18:12,780 [john_aberth]: i should point out that you know other people besides jews were accused of and 1630 01:18:12,860 --> 01:18:18,431 [john_aberth]: poisoners um you know the actual the first incident of 1631 01:18:19,428 --> 01:18:19,730 [zaza]: oh 1632 01:18:19,573 --> 01:18:27,457 [john_aberth]: of a plague poison actual accusation emerged in southern france and carcasson and no bone 1633 01:18:27,517 --> 01:18:34,288 [john_aberth]: in france and it was said that poor poor men and beggars were supposed ly 1634 01:18:34,389 --> 01:18:39,217 [john_aberth]: spreading the age and the waters and the food stuffs and the churches and market 1635 01:18:39,257 --> 01:18:45,638 [john_aberth]: places of the town and and spreading the plague that way and in fact even 1636 01:18:46,719 --> 01:18:52,349 [john_aberth]: you know churchmen such as friars or dominicans who would travel from place to place 1637 01:18:52,409 --> 01:18:57,954 [john_aberth]: they were used of being poisonous to anyone who was a stranger to town could 1638 01:18:58,014 --> 01:19:03,779 [john_aberth]: be suspect but of course the jews were the main suspects in this poison conspiracy 1639 01:19:05,349 --> 01:19:05,554 [zaza]: yeah 1640 01:19:05,480 --> 01:19:12,031 [john_aberth]: uh and ten that you know wiped out jewish communities throughout the german empire and 1641 01:19:12,252 --> 01:19:19,714 [john_aberth]: also in the savoy in switzerland for example ends southern france and also in catalonian 1642 01:19:19,814 --> 01:19:20,156 [john_aberth]: spain 1643 01:19:21,018 --> 01:19:21,962 [zaza]: so these programs were 1644 01:19:21,900 --> 01:19:22,222 [john_aberth]: oh 1645 01:19:22,042 --> 01:19:22,344 [zaza]: deadly 1646 01:19:23,610 --> 01:19:23,991 [john_aberth]: yeah i 1647 01:19:23,958 --> 01:19:25,128 [zaza]: yeah 1648 01:19:24,051 --> 01:19:24,191 [john_aberth]: mean 1649 01:19:25,691 --> 01:19:25,833 [zaza]: sure 1650 01:19:26,014 --> 01:19:32,185 [john_aberth]: they typically wiped out the entire jewish community of the town and a remarkable piece 1651 01:19:32,265 --> 01:19:37,734 [john_aberth]: of evidence has recently emerged usually we have chronical accounts that tell us about these 1652 01:19:37,834 --> 01:19:39,898 [john_aberth]: programs but we we 1653 01:19:39,909 --> 01:19:39,970 [zaza]: she 1654 01:19:40,018 --> 01:19:46,869 [john_aberth]: now have also archeological evidence of these programs in the town of torega in catalonia 1655 01:19:47,190 --> 01:19:57,458 [john_aberth]: theastin spain they unearthed a plague pit which was consisted entirely of victims of victims 1656 01:19:57,559 --> 01:20:03,068 [john_aberth]: of a jewish program that occurred in the town of terega on july sixth thirteen 1657 01:20:03,168 --> 01:20:09,234 [john_aberth]: forty eight when over three hundred jews were killed a mob that broke into the 1658 01:20:09,294 --> 01:20:12,139 [john_aberth]: jewish quarter of the city knocked 1659 01:20:11,967 --> 01:20:11,988 [zaza]: m 1660 01:20:12,179 --> 01:20:16,447 [john_aberth]: down the gates and then went in house by house and killed 1661 01:20:16,481 --> 01:20:16,582 [zaza]: oh 1662 01:20:16,527 --> 01:20:25,501 [john_aberth]: everyone inside and we actually have this plague pit where these bodies were buried side 1663 01:20:25,541 --> 01:20:26,162 [john_aberth]: by side 1664 01:20:26,331 --> 01:20:26,538 [zaza]: oh 1665 01:20:26,763 --> 01:20:33,354 [john_aberth]: in this mass burial pit and the amazing thing is that we you know we 1666 01:20:33,454 --> 01:20:38,683 [john_aberth]: actually have the marks of the attack still remaining on the skeletons of the victims 1667 01:20:39,284 --> 01:20:44,075 [john_aberth]: for example there is one victim who has no less than two legions to his 1668 01:20:44,136 --> 01:20:44,617 [john_aberth]: skeleton 1669 01:20:44,808 --> 01:20:44,828 [zaza]: m 1670 01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:50,387 [john_aberth]: twelve to his skull and ten on the rest of his body he was struck 1671 01:20:50,587 --> 01:20:58,680 [john_aberth]: twenty two times in other words and you know what is also very remarkable is 1672 01:20:58,780 --> 01:21:04,650 [john_aberth]: how people of all ages were killed this included men and women but also chill 1673 01:21:04,770 --> 01:21:10,619 [john_aberth]: and and even infants you have you know skulls where the the you know the 1674 01:21:10,700 --> 01:21:15,127 [john_aberth]: bones have not fused yet which means they were two years old or less and 1675 01:21:15,187 --> 01:21:20,015 [john_aberth]: they also have cuts to the skull so they were killed so even infants and 1676 01:21:20,095 --> 01:21:26,446 [john_aberth]: children were being killed and struck down during these programs and what that indicates at 1677 01:21:26,506 --> 01:21:33,238 [john_aberth]: least to the scholars who examine these bones excuse me is that you know there 1678 01:21:33,298 --> 01:21:40,605 [john_aberth]: was a remarkable hatred animating these programs that they 1679 01:21:40,698 --> 01:21:41,063 [zaza]: yes 1680 01:21:40,726 --> 01:21:46,636 [john_aberth]: simply wanted to wipe out the entire population of the town of the entire jewish 1681 01:21:46,696 --> 01:21:50,923 [john_aberth]: population of the town scuse me 1682 01:21:51,628 --> 01:21:51,970 [zaza]: no worries 1683 01:21:54,472 --> 01:21:54,572 [john_aberth]: so 1684 01:21:55,278 --> 01:21:55,519 [zaza]: oh 1685 01:21:55,776 --> 01:22:03,091 [john_aberth]: you know it's even though there may not be a record of you know the 1686 01:22:05,455 --> 01:22:12,708 [john_aberth]: the fact that you know jews were accused of being poisoners it seems pretty clear 1687 01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:21,833 [john_aberth]: that you know people believed that jews were spreading the plague and poisoning people and 1688 01:22:21,913 --> 01:22:27,004 [john_aberth]: trying to wipe out the entire christian community and therefore they them elves had to 1689 01:22:27,064 --> 01:22:29,011 [john_aberth]: be wiped out in turn 1690 01:22:31,308 --> 01:22:31,529 [zaza]: yeah 1691 01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:40,663 [john_aberth]: so you know this was an attempt to and annihilate the entire community excuse 1692 01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:40,940 [zaza]: absolutely 1693 01:22:40,704 --> 01:22:40,886 [john_aberth]: me of 1694 01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,606 [zaza]: horrifying did that happen then every 1695 01:22:44,610 --> 01:22:44,912 [john_aberth]: oh 1696 01:22:44,667 --> 01:22:46,329 [zaza]: time another wave 1697 01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:46,100 [john_aberth]: h 1698 01:22:46,990 --> 01:22:47,371 [zaza]: you know of 1699 01:22:47,409 --> 01:22:47,430 [john_aberth]: h 1700 01:22:47,451 --> 01:22:50,937 [zaza]: the plague kind of hit europe again 1701 01:22:52,671 --> 01:22:58,794 [john_aberth]: no it didn't what is interesting is that you know the plague 1702 01:22:59,112 --> 01:22:59,214 [zaza]: ah 1703 01:23:00,598 --> 01:23:08,244 [john_aberth]: basically these poggrums for the most part occurred before the plague arrived just like the 1704 01:23:08,304 --> 01:23:18,070 [john_aberth]: flagulants for example well the largest programs occurred in strasbourg in you know in the 1705 01:23:18,130 --> 01:23:25,845 [john_aberth]: border between france and germany um and this program occurred on valentine's day on february 1706 01:23:25,966 --> 01:23:32,222 [john_aberth]: fourteenth thirteen forty nine when about two thousand jews were killed and the plague didn't 1707 01:23:32,262 --> 01:23:39,846 [john_aberth]: arrive until july of that year so occurred several months before that so you can 1708 01:23:39,926 --> 01:23:44,093 [john_aberth]: imagine they wiped out all the jews of the town and then the plague arrives 1709 01:23:44,714 --> 01:23:51,471 [john_aberth]: so you know uh so we kill all the poisoners and yet there's still plague 1710 01:23:51,972 --> 01:23:57,593 [john_aberth]: so obviously we made a mistake you know the jews weren't the cause of the 1711 01:23:57,653 --> 01:24:05,248 [john_aberth]: plague after all and that was actually remarked upon by contemporary conrad of megnburgh who 1712 01:24:05,309 --> 01:24:08,935 [john_aberth]: was a german priest at the papal court of avenel 1713 01:24:10,008 --> 01:24:10,354 [zaza]: oh 1714 01:24:10,317 --> 01:24:16,382 [john_aberth]: and he remarked about o even after they wiped out all the jews of the 1715 01:24:16,443 --> 01:24:21,427 [john_aberth]: town the plague still came and so that was a reason to doubt that the 1716 01:24:21,487 --> 01:24:28,111 [john_aberth]: jews were trying to poison people and give them the black death because you know 1717 01:24:28,552 --> 01:24:33,588 [john_aberth]: even after you wipe out all the people all the jews plague still came so 1718 01:24:34,571 --> 01:24:42,328 [john_aberth]: therefore in later outbreaks you know jews weren't targeted you could be also cynical and 1719 01:24:42,388 --> 01:24:47,957 [john_aberth]: say well there weren't any jews left but you know in many cases jews did 1720 01:24:48,077 --> 01:24:55,704 [john_aberth]: come back to these communities after the first outbreak but they weren't targeted in later 1721 01:24:55,804 --> 01:24:56,646 [john_aberth]: outbreaks because 1722 01:24:56,981 --> 01:24:57,708 [zaza]: hm 1723 01:24:58,830 --> 01:25:05,677 [john_aberth]: know of this fact that you know killing the jewish communities didn't didn't avoid didn't 1724 01:25:05,717 --> 01:25:09,930 [john_aberth]: avoid the play coming to the town yeah 1725 01:25:10,711 --> 01:25:15,359 [zaza]: so after a few years the black death during this first wave 1726 01:25:15,189 --> 01:25:15,921 [john_aberth]: m oh 1727 01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:18,925 [zaza]: the black death pretty much burns out right what does 1728 01:25:18,871 --> 01:25:18,891 [john_aberth]: m 1729 01:25:18,985 --> 01:25:20,487 [zaza]: the world into which this 1730 01:25:20,441 --> 01:25:20,461 [john_aberth]: m 1731 01:25:20,909 --> 01:25:21,573 [zaza]: survivors 1732 01:25:21,789 --> 01:25:21,810 [john_aberth]: m 1733 01:25:22,055 --> 01:25:26,690 [zaza]: re emerge into look like we touched 1734 01:25:26,585 --> 01:25:26,807 [john_aberth]: well 1735 01:25:26,751 --> 01:25:28,000 [zaza]: upon it briefly at the beginning 1736 01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:30,582 [john_aberth]: yeah i'm in the 1737 01:25:33,650 --> 01:25:34,952 [john_aberth]: um after the first 1738 01:25:34,938 --> 01:25:35,061 [zaza]: yeah 1739 01:25:35,092 --> 01:25:44,708 [john_aberth]: outbreak you know there is there is some recovery but basically europe is not allowed 1740 01:25:44,848 --> 01:25:51,059 [john_aberth]: to fully recover from the black death because play keeps coming back about once a 1741 01:25:51,139 --> 01:25:57,289 [john_aberth]: decade it comes back in thirteen sixty one in thirteen sixty nine during the third 1742 01:25:57,349 --> 01:26:00,359 [john_aberth]: team seventies and so on um and then 1743 01:26:00,378 --> 01:26:01,188 [zaza]: oh 1744 01:26:00,500 --> 01:26:07,772 [john_aberth]: you know basically it comes back once a decade throughout the second half of the 1745 01:26:07,832 --> 01:26:20,803 [john_aberth]: fourteenth and fifteenth centuries so plague never really goes away m so basically population remains 1746 01:26:20,923 --> 01:26:25,987 [john_aberth]: stagnant or even slightly declines right right through to the 1747 01:26:26,290 --> 01:26:26,392 [zaza]: oh 1748 01:26:26,808 --> 01:26:27,929 [john_aberth]: mid fifteenth century 1749 01:26:29,509 --> 01:26:30,673 [zaza]: but i believe at the beginning 1750 01:26:31,419 --> 01:26:31,440 [john_aberth]: m 1751 01:26:32,338 --> 01:26:33,239 [zaza]: you said that 1752 01:26:33,755 --> 01:26:33,896 [john_aberth]: yeah 1753 01:26:33,981 --> 01:26:35,623 [zaza]: suddenly there's labor 1754 01:26:35,550 --> 01:26:35,570 [john_aberth]: m 1755 01:26:35,744 --> 01:26:37,086 [zaza]: shortages everywhere 1756 01:26:36,870 --> 01:26:36,890 [john_aberth]: m 1757 01:26:37,366 --> 01:26:40,151 [zaza]: because the population has been decimated so 1758 01:26:40,403 --> 01:26:40,606 [john_aberth]: right 1759 01:26:41,513 --> 01:26:43,356 [zaza]: now you know the workers 1760 01:26:43,260 --> 01:26:43,483 [john_aberth]: my 1761 01:26:43,396 --> 01:26:44,959 [zaza]: the peasants um 1762 01:26:45,552 --> 01:26:45,694 [john_aberth]: yeah 1763 01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:48,685 [zaza]: they have something to leverage and they demand better pay and 1764 01:26:48,609 --> 01:26:48,630 [john_aberth]: m 1765 01:26:48,765 --> 01:26:52,231 [zaza]: so forth when does that start happening people 1766 01:26:52,230 --> 01:26:52,250 [john_aberth]: m 1767 01:26:52,331 --> 01:26:56,459 [zaza]: probably realize that you know the plague is pretty much at least this wave of 1768 01:26:56,519 --> 01:26:57,624 [zaza]: the plague is over right 1769 01:26:58,449 --> 01:26:59,604 [john_aberth]: m yeah 1770 01:27:00,579 --> 01:27:01,368 [zaza]: yeah 1771 01:27:01,291 --> 01:27:01,813 [john_aberth]: you know this 1772 01:27:02,019 --> 01:27:02,120 [zaza]: it 1773 01:27:04,061 --> 01:27:10,354 [john_aberth]: you know the first outbreak um m you know i had had fifty to sixty 1774 01:27:10,414 --> 01:27:14,122 [john_aberth]: per cent mortality so he had a huge drop on the population 1775 01:27:15,348 --> 01:27:16,338 [zaza]: oh 1776 01:27:16,667 --> 01:27:24,557 [john_aberth]: and um but you know the thing is europe can never really recover from that 1777 01:27:26,150 --> 01:27:35,766 [john_aberth]: because the plague keeps coming back so um you know even you had that basically 1778 01:27:35,906 --> 01:27:43,042 [john_aberth]: supply side shock that occurs from the first outbreak but then that you know continues 1779 01:27:43,864 --> 01:27:51,444 [john_aberth]: for basically a century after thirteen forty eight right down to fourteen fifty the circe 1780 01:27:51,564 --> 01:28:02,033 [john_aberth]: fourteen fifty for example in england it is thought that by fourteen fifty english population 1781 01:28:02,113 --> 01:28:08,985 [john_aberth]: was about one point nine million and before the plague it stood about four point 1782 01:28:09,166 --> 01:28:18,153 [john_aberth]: eight million so basically now less than half of the population you know was was 1783 01:28:19,976 --> 01:28:26,106 [john_aberth]: less than half the population survived the century of a plague that kept coming back 1784 01:28:26,186 --> 01:28:33,278 [john_aberth]: and back and if you compare it just as a comparison doomsday survey in ten 1785 01:28:33,358 --> 01:28:38,988 [john_aberth]: eighty six found that the english population was one point seven million so basically reverted 1786 01:28:39,068 --> 01:28:45,932 [john_aberth]: to population a couple of centuries earlier in the in the late eleventh century so 1787 01:28:46,212 --> 01:28:51,977 [john_aberth]: you know that just illustrates how you know deep a supply side shock this was 1788 01:28:52,878 --> 01:29:01,822 [john_aberth]: that you know population was called and never was allowed to recover until about fourteen 1789 01:29:01,882 --> 01:29:10,897 [john_aberth]: fifty after fourteen fifty population slowly recovers until you know you you get by fifteen 1790 01:29:11,017 --> 01:29:18,801 [john_aberth]: forty one apparently population has recovered to about two point eight million so you know 1791 01:29:19,001 --> 01:29:27,315 [john_aberth]: then the trajectory begins to change after fourteen fifty and population across europe there's evidence 1792 01:29:27,375 --> 01:29:29,299 [john_aberth]: that in italy the netherlands 1793 01:29:29,148 --> 01:29:29,432 [zaza]: oh 1794 01:29:31,321 --> 01:29:37,997 [john_aberth]: and so in germany as well population begins to recover after fourteen fifty why that's 1795 01:29:38,077 --> 01:29:41,042 [john_aberth]: the case as i said i believe as 1796 01:29:41,088 --> 01:29:41,310 [zaza]: oh 1797 01:29:41,463 --> 01:29:46,571 [john_aberth]: something to do with more effective play controls rather than the learns of the plague 1798 01:29:46,651 --> 01:29:49,875 [john_aberth]: itself i mean plague velensoi'm not convinced 1799 01:29:49,638 --> 01:29:50,275 [zaza]: ye 1800 01:29:51,117 --> 01:29:59,359 [john_aberth]: decreases over time i believe it was simply fewer epidemics striking the population more effective 1801 01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:08,234 [john_aberth]: controls limiting the impact that plague had upon societies so after fourteen fifty population does 1802 01:30:08,354 --> 01:30:13,182 [john_aberth]: begin to recover but until then people have to live with these supply side shocks 1803 01:30:13,883 --> 01:30:20,006 [john_aberth]: so what that means is as you know going back to what you said mary 1804 01:30:19,788 --> 01:30:20,748 [zaza]: yeah 1805 01:30:20,910 --> 01:30:30,645 [john_aberth]: s could be you know there were a lot fewer people available um to work 1806 01:30:31,247 --> 01:30:39,725 [john_aberth]: and therefore their labor was much more valuable so um you know english wages for 1807 01:30:39,825 --> 01:30:47,097 [john_aberth]: example double from you know before the black death to about fourteen fifty so you 1808 01:30:47,217 --> 01:30:54,220 [john_aberth]: had a big increase in wages you had better standards of living you know prices 1809 01:30:54,921 --> 01:31:00,727 [john_aberth]: um you know stay stable or decline because there is fewer people buying commodities so 1810 01:31:00,847 --> 01:31:01,708 [john_aberth]: basically people 1811 01:31:02,981 --> 01:31:03,083 [zaza]: at 1812 01:31:03,850 --> 01:31:05,215 [john_aberth]: excuse me people are able to 1813 01:31:05,118 --> 01:31:05,280 [zaza]: ye 1814 01:31:05,356 --> 01:31:12,710 [john_aberth]: afford more to buy more with their and have more money to spend as a 1815 01:31:12,750 --> 01:31:13,031 [john_aberth]: result 1816 01:31:12,888 --> 01:31:12,908 [zaza]: m 1817 01:31:13,091 --> 01:31:18,119 [john_aberth]: of their higher wages so they have higher standards of living and that also means 1818 01:31:18,239 --> 01:31:25,110 [john_aberth]: more money is being pumped into the economy as people are you know you know 1819 01:31:26,012 --> 01:31:31,990 [john_aberth]: you know enjoying their higher standards of living they're buying more commodities for example and 1820 01:31:32,030 --> 01:31:41,782 [john_aberth]: that's encouraging manufacturing and industry so for example england's g d p england's gross domestic 1821 01:31:41,922 --> 01:31:48,994 [john_aberth]: product seems to increase by about fifty per cent from you know thirteen forty eight 1822 01:31:49,535 --> 01:31:51,899 [john_aberth]: to fifteen forty in the netherlands 1823 01:31:55,406 --> 01:31:57,952 [john_aberth]: in the netherlands it's even higher g d p 1824 01:31:58,269 --> 01:31:58,290 [zaza]: a 1825 01:31:58,673 --> 01:32:05,476 [john_aberth]: increases by as much as sixty nine percent from the black duff to about fifteen 1826 01:32:05,577 --> 01:32:14,485 [john_aberth]: forty whereas in italy and spain they actually seem to go into decline or stagnate 1827 01:32:15,086 --> 01:32:22,518 [john_aberth]: so this is why north western europe especially the netherlands and england emerge as the 1828 01:32:22,598 --> 01:32:31,570 [john_aberth]: new powers the new commercial powers of europe by the early modern period because you 1829 01:32:31,590 --> 01:32:39,200 [john_aberth]: know the population is actually able to reap the benefits of the plague excuse me 1830 01:32:39,281 --> 01:32:39,882 [john_aberth]: of the supply 1831 01:32:39,580 --> 01:32:39,803 [zaza]: yeah 1832 01:32:40,022 --> 01:32:49,257 [john_aberth]: side shock because they re able to retain these these these wage increases and are 1833 01:32:49,357 --> 01:32:54,367 [john_aberth]: able to spend more and the economy's benefit as a result of that 1834 01:32:55,938 --> 01:32:56,182 [zaza]: yeah 1835 01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:02,530 [john_aberth]: so that's that's what's called the little divergence where you know england and the netherlands 1836 01:33:02,610 --> 01:33:07,197 [john_aberth]: emerge as the new powers of europe as compared to italy which had been a 1837 01:33:07,258 --> 01:33:10,266 [john_aberth]: commercial power house much of the middle ages 1838 01:33:12,898 --> 01:33:12,958 [zaza]: is 1839 01:33:12,990 --> 01:33:13,650 [john_aberth]: yeah 1840 01:33:12,998 --> 01:33:14,941 [zaza]: there any sort of proto 1841 01:33:14,790 --> 01:33:15,010 [john_aberth]: yeah 1842 01:33:15,202 --> 01:33:16,063 [zaza]: labor movements 1843 01:33:16,035 --> 01:33:16,236 [john_aberth]: yeah 1844 01:33:16,304 --> 01:33:20,751 [zaza]: that come out of this like people saying you know you have to pay me 1845 01:33:20,851 --> 01:33:22,233 [zaza]: more now or i'm just not 1846 01:33:22,295 --> 01:33:22,375 [john_aberth]: ah 1847 01:33:22,314 --> 01:33:24,457 [zaza]: working and sort of organizing 1848 01:33:24,401 --> 01:33:24,442 [john_aberth]: m 1849 01:33:24,497 --> 01:33:24,617 [zaza]: them 1850 01:33:25,089 --> 01:33:25,110 [john_aberth]: m 1851 01:33:26,448 --> 01:33:27,053 [zaza]: in this fashion 1852 01:33:26,730 --> 01:33:35,099 [john_aberth]: yeah um m yeah i mean there's you know there's the of course the great 1853 01:33:35,219 --> 01:33:44,155 [john_aberth]: peasants revolt of thirteen eighty one in england where you know the peasants demanded uh 1854 01:33:44,295 --> 01:33:51,988 [john_aberth]: you know their leader demanded watt tyler demanded four pence everyone paid fourpence per acre 1855 01:33:52,088 --> 01:33:58,098 [john_aberth]: of land that basically that would add a stroke wipe out serfdom throughout england and 1856 01:33:58,218 --> 01:34:05,378 [john_aberth]: everyone would be rent as but you know that that revolt was crushed but you 1857 01:34:05,418 --> 01:34:13,812 [john_aberth]: know serfdom does die out in england by by the late fifteenth early sixteenth century 1858 01:34:14,513 --> 01:34:22,706 [john_aberth]: um and it dies out naturally because you know landlords can't really can't really afford 1859 01:34:23,407 --> 01:34:29,263 [john_aberth]: to pay these higher wages now they're having to pay higher wages they have higher 1860 01:34:29,303 --> 01:34:35,208 [john_aberth]: expenses and they're getting less income from the agricultural produce because there's far less people 1861 01:34:35,268 --> 01:34:42,280 [john_aberth]: to buy that produce so that's not that's not economically sustainable you know if they 1862 01:34:43,122 --> 01:34:45,806 [john_aberth]: they're getting less income and they have higher expenses 1863 01:34:46,049 --> 01:34:46,070 [zaza]: i 1864 01:34:48,020 --> 01:34:54,407 [john_aberth]: so they have to pay more in wages and get less income from the sale 1865 01:34:54,467 --> 01:35:00,997 [john_aberth]: of their goods so a lot of these landlords just end up you know basically 1866 01:35:01,871 --> 01:35:09,667 [john_aberth]: um you know allowing their serfs to simply pay rents instead of demanding you know 1867 01:35:09,927 --> 01:35:17,391 [john_aberth]: their labor now as part of their status of being a serf a lot of 1868 01:35:17,431 --> 01:35:25,384 [john_aberth]: them let the you know let there's you know those labor requirements go by or 1869 01:35:25,565 --> 01:35:32,801 [john_aberth]: simply rent out their entire estates wealthy peasant farmers peasant farmers who could end up 1870 01:35:33,542 --> 01:35:38,727 [john_aberth]: you know farming over a hundred acres and become the proto yeoman of the early 1871 01:35:38,807 --> 01:35:47,463 [john_aberth]: modern period so at least in england it seems that um you know the you 1872 01:35:47,524 --> 01:35:53,093 [john_aberth]: know the economic conditions created by the black that the supply side shock that i 1873 01:35:53,193 --> 01:35:59,945 [john_aberth]: talked about where you know the population was was called to the extent that you 1874 01:35:59,985 --> 01:36:06,105 [john_aberth]: know labor was just too expensive farm the land directly and therefore that you know 1875 01:36:06,606 --> 01:36:12,977 [john_aberth]: you know leads to the end of serfdom because it's just not economically feasible to 1876 01:36:13,097 --> 01:36:18,004 [john_aberth]: demand labor services from their peasants anymore yea 1877 01:36:17,915 --> 01:36:17,996 [zaza]: ah 1878 01:36:18,145 --> 01:36:22,501 [john_aberth]: and they rather have a fixed income i rather have each 1879 01:36:22,548 --> 01:36:23,538 [zaza]: oh 1880 01:36:22,601 --> 01:36:27,206 [john_aberth]: peasant pay rent for the land and therefore they get you know a fixed stable 1881 01:36:27,326 --> 01:36:33,372 [john_aberth]: income instead of having to rely on the market you know because labor keeps going 1882 01:36:33,472 --> 01:36:34,534 [john_aberth]: up the price of labor 1883 01:36:34,370 --> 01:36:35,118 [zaza]: hm 1884 01:36:34,634 --> 01:36:39,392 [john_aberth]: keeps going up you know the price they can get for their goods it goes 1885 01:36:39,492 --> 01:36:44,577 [john_aberth]: down so you know is this not economically viable anymore 1886 01:36:45,798 --> 01:36:46,079 [zaza]: yeah 1887 01:36:47,024 --> 01:36:48,973 [john_aberth]: but you know in other countries that might be different 1888 01:36:52,743 --> 01:36:53,286 [zaza]: okay if we 1889 01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:55,700 [john_aberth]: m 1890 01:36:56,138 --> 01:37:01,467 [zaza]: of leave medieval europe for a second are there any obvious parallels between 1891 01:37:01,500 --> 01:37:02,220 [john_aberth]: yeah 1892 01:37:01,527 --> 01:37:05,934 [zaza]: the black death and the covid nineteen epidemic of our times 1893 01:37:05,919 --> 01:37:05,940 [john_aberth]: m 1894 01:37:06,074 --> 01:37:08,646 [zaza]: that immediately come to mind for most 1895 01:37:08,589 --> 01:37:08,610 [john_aberth]: m 1896 01:37:08,687 --> 01:37:14,906 [zaza]: of the epidemic we seemed pretty powerless and our only measures of defense were 1897 01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:15,380 [john_aberth]: m 1898 01:37:15,387 --> 01:37:17,490 [zaza]: the quarantine and end to wash our hands 1899 01:37:17,940 --> 01:37:17,960 [john_aberth]: m 1900 01:37:18,051 --> 01:37:22,662 [zaza]: so the situation doesn't seem too dissimilar at least you know until we have 1901 01:37:22,590 --> 01:37:22,610 [john_aberth]: m 1902 01:37:22,722 --> 01:37:25,215 [zaza]: vaccines what are your thoughts on that 1903 01:37:26,690 --> 01:37:30,356 [john_aberth]: well it is interesting that in the earlier days of covid 1904 01:37:33,471 --> 01:37:40,511 [john_aberth]: the best that you know people could do was to nurse people two you know 1905 01:37:40,551 --> 01:37:45,583 [john_aberth]: we didn't have we didn't have a cure for covid of course we didn't even 1906 01:37:45,704 --> 01:37:51,382 [john_aberth]: have the vaccines for covid so the best thing that people could do was to 1907 01:37:52,764 --> 01:37:59,282 [john_aberth]: you know i simply nurse them through the fever and you know that was very 1908 01:37:59,382 --> 01:38:03,048 [john_aberth]: similar to the black death as well i mean the best that people could do 1909 01:38:04,440 --> 01:38:09,110 [john_aberth]: medically was to give them food and water to sustain them in the hopes that 1910 01:38:09,150 --> 01:38:09,892 [john_aberth]: they could survive 1911 01:38:09,867 --> 01:38:09,888 [zaza]: m 1912 01:38:09,972 --> 01:38:20,060 [john_aberth]: by bubonic plague which they had a chance to do but you know the now 1913 01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:27,871 [john_aberth]: that i think the you know there's a similarity there in terms of medically we 1914 01:38:27,931 --> 01:38:32,458 [john_aberth]: were pretty helpless in the face of covidskipy 1915 01:38:37,152 --> 01:38:39,877 [john_aberth]: but of course the big difference is that 1916 01:38:39,708 --> 01:38:39,969 [zaza]: oh 1917 01:38:41,099 --> 01:38:46,829 [john_aberth]: you know we developed vaccines in a record period of time that were able to 1918 01:38:48,881 --> 01:38:56,950 [john_aberth]: but it be pretty effective in terms of combating the disease so you know what 1919 01:38:56,990 --> 01:38:58,132 [john_aberth]: is remarkable to me 1920 01:38:59,007 --> 01:38:59,028 [zaza]: m 1921 01:38:59,053 --> 01:39:07,668 [john_aberth]: is that the vaccine deniers or the vaccine skeptics refused to benefit from modern medicine 1922 01:39:07,968 --> 01:39:11,097 [john_aberth]: i mean it's a zif deciding to live in the middle ages 1923 01:39:11,718 --> 01:39:13,030 [zaza]: yeah yeah 1924 01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:15,825 [john_aberth]: i mean why would you do that it was 1925 01:39:16,260 --> 01:39:16,440 [zaza]: that's 1926 01:39:16,326 --> 01:39:16,526 [john_aberth]: it was 1927 01:39:16,501 --> 01:39:16,701 [zaza]: a good 1928 01:39:16,647 --> 01:39:16,847 [john_aberth]: pretty 1929 01:39:16,741 --> 01:39:17,042 [zaza]: question 1930 01:39:16,907 --> 01:39:17,308 [john_aberth]: horrible 1931 01:39:17,864 --> 01:39:18,025 [zaza]: yeah 1932 01:39:18,650 --> 01:39:20,954 [john_aberth]: you know nowadays we have 1933 01:39:20,943 --> 01:39:20,964 [zaza]: a 1934 01:39:21,074 --> 01:39:22,957 [john_aberth]: of course antibiaducts 1935 01:39:22,668 --> 01:39:22,889 [zaza]: oh 1936 01:39:22,977 --> 01:39:27,340 [john_aberth]: that can cure the plague so it's as if you're refusing to take that so 1937 01:39:27,783 --> 01:39:30,416 [john_aberth]: i mean do you really want to live in the middle ages 1938 01:39:31,919 --> 01:39:32,019 [zaza]: and 1939 01:39:32,244 --> 01:39:32,610 [john_aberth]: i'm in 1940 01:39:33,060 --> 01:39:33,841 [zaza]: take your chances 1941 01:39:33,480 --> 01:39:35,496 [john_aberth]: uh 1942 01:39:33,922 --> 01:39:35,964 [zaza]: with what did you say the mortality rate 1943 01:39:35,979 --> 01:39:36,000 [john_aberth]: h 1944 01:39:36,005 --> 01:39:37,146 [zaza]: was like 1945 01:39:37,076 --> 01:39:37,238 [john_aberth]: yeah 1946 01:39:37,186 --> 01:39:38,930 [zaza]: the some 1947 01:39:38,861 --> 01:39:39,022 [john_aberth]: as 1948 01:39:39,071 --> 01:39:39,796 [zaza]: some variants 1949 01:39:39,423 --> 01:39:39,906 [john_aberth]: as fifty 1950 01:39:39,836 --> 01:39:41,043 [zaza]: were a hundred per cent right 1951 01:39:42,070 --> 01:39:48,501 [john_aberth]: yeah somewhere a hundred per cent you know in nemonicrocepta chemic plague um if you 1952 01:39:48,561 --> 01:39:52,969 [john_aberth]: get neumonic plague you have to take the antabdics in the first twenty four hours 1953 01:39:53,069 --> 01:39:53,870 [john_aberth]: if you're gonna alive 1954 01:39:54,799 --> 01:39:56,148 [zaza]: m m 1955 01:39:56,194 --> 01:40:01,663 [john_aberth]: now it usually takes about two days to die from neumonic plague but in bubonic 1956 01:40:01,763 --> 01:40:06,470 [john_aberth]: plague and there's still about a dozen cases of plague that emerge in the in 1957 01:40:06,510 --> 01:40:12,576 [john_aberth]: the western united states even today because plague is endemic to that region it's always 1958 01:40:12,696 --> 01:40:20,995 [john_aberth]: present for example in prado populations and another wild animal populations so um you know 1959 01:40:21,096 --> 01:40:24,446 [john_aberth]: it's as if you're saying i don't want to i don't want to take modern 1960 01:40:24,466 --> 01:40:27,725 [john_aberth]: medicine i'd rather live in the middle ages and 1961 01:40:28,188 --> 01:40:28,429 [zaza]: yeah 1962 01:40:28,346 --> 01:40:31,716 [john_aberth]: you know i'm a i'm an historian of the middle ages and even i wouldn't 1963 01:40:31,736 --> 01:40:33,215 [john_aberth]: want to do that yeah 1964 01:40:33,590 --> 01:40:33,650 [zaza]: so 1965 01:40:33,690 --> 01:40:34,252 [john_aberth]: uh 1966 01:40:33,851 --> 01:40:36,336 [zaza]: after all we've heard today during this episode 1967 01:40:36,219 --> 01:40:36,240 [john_aberth]: h 1968 01:40:36,457 --> 01:40:38,501 [zaza]: that's a very brave choice 1969 01:40:38,520 --> 01:40:38,680 [john_aberth]: oh 1970 01:40:38,582 --> 01:40:40,726 [zaza]: indeed if we can use that euphemism right 1971 01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:42,041 [john_aberth]: yeah i mean 1972 01:40:44,679 --> 01:40:45,348 [zaza]: yeah 1973 01:40:45,365 --> 01:40:46,326 [john_aberth]: you know there there are many 1974 01:40:46,710 --> 01:40:46,791 [zaza]: ah 1975 01:40:47,648 --> 01:40:53,868 [john_aberth]: excuse me there are many comparisons you can make between covid and the black death 1976 01:40:55,210 --> 01:41:00,399 [john_aberth]: you know there was one interesting comparison i would make is that there were so 1977 01:41:00,539 --> 01:41:08,112 [john_aberth]: called ovid refugees people who fled covid from the cities um and were going to 1978 01:41:08,632 --> 01:41:14,186 [john_aberth]: trying to buy country homes or you know houses in the country many people came 1979 01:41:14,267 --> 01:41:16,177 [john_aberth]: to vermont for example where i lived 1980 01:41:16,098 --> 01:41:16,320 [zaza]: yeah 1981 01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:18,182 [john_aberth]: which is you know relative 1982 01:41:18,196 --> 01:41:18,318 [zaza]: yeah 1983 01:41:18,222 --> 01:41:23,871 [john_aberth]: you know sparsely populated compared to the cities in new york city for example and 1984 01:41:23,891 --> 01:41:31,025 [john_aberth]: there was some resentment in some communities to these new arrivals um who were thought 1985 01:41:31,085 --> 01:41:35,838 [john_aberth]: to be perhaps bringing the disease but you know covid is spread person to person 1986 01:41:37,000 --> 01:41:43,527 [john_aberth]: which is different from the black death although people at the time believed it was 1987 01:41:43,587 --> 01:41:50,077 [john_aberth]: spread person to person too um but there's also in the early stages of covid 1988 01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:53,042 [john_aberth]: he had the spectacle 1989 01:41:53,089 --> 01:41:53,171 [zaza]: ah 1990 01:41:53,142 --> 01:41:59,052 [john_aberth]: of mask burials for example people being buried so many people dying they were buried 1991 01:41:59,092 --> 01:42:06,704 [john_aberth]: in mass graves for example there were you know people makeshift mors being set up 1992 01:42:07,285 --> 01:42:10,491 [john_aberth]: where people were put into refrigerated trucks because 1993 01:42:10,483 --> 01:42:11,118 [zaza]: hm 1994 01:42:10,571 --> 01:42:12,955 [john_aberth]: people were dying at such a high rate 1995 01:42:13,248 --> 01:42:13,490 [zaza]: yeah 1996 01:42:13,796 --> 01:42:19,826 [john_aberth]: and you know you could compare that to the black death and to the nineteen 1997 01:42:19,906 --> 01:42:24,934 [john_aberth]: eighteen flue pandemic when bodies were stacked like cordwood like fire wood it was said 1998 01:42:25,548 --> 01:42:25,998 [zaza]: oh 1999 01:42:26,557 --> 01:42:27,178 [john_aberth]: so you know 2000 01:42:27,149 --> 01:42:27,290 [zaza]: yeah 2001 01:42:27,238 --> 01:42:27,398 [john_aberth]: there 2002 01:42:27,350 --> 01:42:27,431 [zaza]: we 2003 01:42:27,438 --> 01:42:27,559 [john_aberth]: was 2004 01:42:27,491 --> 01:42:33,451 [zaza]: didn't touch upon that if we may quickly jump back 2005 01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:33,260 [john_aberth]: m 2006 01:42:33,871 --> 01:42:36,154 [zaza]: into medieval medieval europe for a second how 2007 01:42:36,210 --> 01:42:36,230 [john_aberth]: m 2008 01:42:36,614 --> 01:42:40,870 [zaza]: i mean how how did people get buried doing this first wave 2009 01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:41,400 [john_aberth]: yeah 2010 01:42:41,818 --> 01:42:42,383 [zaza]: of the plague 2011 01:42:42,081 --> 01:42:42,322 [john_aberth]: well 2012 01:42:43,388 --> 01:42:43,469 [zaza]: who 2013 01:42:43,403 --> 01:42:43,924 [john_aberth]: typically 2014 01:42:43,550 --> 01:42:43,896 [zaza]: did that 2015 01:42:45,527 --> 01:42:50,996 [john_aberth]: typically people were buried in a shroud which is basically a cloth 2016 01:42:50,747 --> 01:42:51,438 [zaza]: yeah 2017 01:42:51,136 --> 01:42:51,397 [john_aberth]: sack 2018 01:42:52,158 --> 01:42:52,178 [zaza]: m 2019 01:42:52,639 --> 01:42:57,807 [john_aberth]: and there put into a you know a grave dug in the ground and then 2020 01:42:58,408 --> 01:43:02,772 [john_aberth]: after a while bones were dug up and it was the bones were placed in 2021 01:43:02,812 --> 01:43:10,038 [john_aberth]: the osserary or basically a charnel house placed the stack bones and and the grave 2022 01:43:10,118 --> 01:43:16,384 [john_aberth]: was re used so people didn't really have individual graves back then m during the 2023 01:43:16,444 --> 01:43:20,233 [john_aberth]: time of the black death when so many people were die and of course there 2024 01:43:20,294 --> 01:43:27,426 [john_aberth]: were mass graves that were dug and giovanni bakacio has a famous account of how 2025 01:43:28,248 --> 01:43:36,281 [john_aberth]: the bodies were stacked you know layer upon layer like ship's cargo martin de cop 2026 01:43:36,441 --> 01:43:40,789 [john_aberth]: stefani another florentine chronicler compared it to male in the lozaniaut 2027 01:43:40,137 --> 01:43:40,158 [zaza]: m 2028 01:43:40,869 --> 01:43:41,590 [john_aberth]: of layers of 2029 01:43:41,988 --> 01:43:42,169 [zaza]: yeah 2030 01:43:42,131 --> 01:43:43,453 [john_aberth]: paste and and cheese 2031 01:43:43,758 --> 01:43:44,160 [zaza]: oh 2032 01:43:44,034 --> 01:43:47,199 [john_aberth]: you have a layer of bodies then a layer of dirt a layer of bodies 2033 01:43:47,480 --> 01:43:49,771 [john_aberth]: or of dirt and the people were just 2034 01:43:49,698 --> 01:43:49,878 [zaza]: that 2035 01:43:49,811 --> 01:43:50,153 [john_aberth]: stacked 2036 01:43:49,979 --> 01:43:50,159 [zaza]: that 2037 01:43:50,293 --> 01:43:50,354 [john_aberth]: up 2038 01:43:50,319 --> 01:43:54,023 [zaza]: used to be my favorite dish but after this conversation i doubt 2039 01:43:54,023 --> 01:43:54,203 [john_aberth]: yeah 2040 01:43:54,083 --> 01:43:54,223 [zaza]: that 2041 01:43:54,283 --> 01:43:54,724 [john_aberth]: i'm sorry 2042 01:43:54,583 --> 01:43:55,024 [zaza]: that's gonna 2043 01:43:55,505 --> 01:43:55,586 [john_aberth]: i'm 2044 01:43:55,544 --> 01:43:55,624 [zaza]: nd 2045 01:43:55,666 --> 01:43:55,906 [john_aberth]: sorry 2046 01:43:55,684 --> 01:43:56,085 [zaza]: it's okay 2047 01:43:55,986 --> 01:43:56,908 [john_aberth]: i ruined it for you 2048 01:43:56,925 --> 01:43:57,326 [zaza]: thank you 2049 01:43:57,348 --> 01:44:00,734 [john_aberth]: but they didn't have tomato they didn't have tomato sauce back then so 2050 01:44:01,350 --> 01:44:01,714 [zaza]: all right 2051 01:44:01,535 --> 01:44:03,939 [john_aberth]: um you know tomatoes were 2052 01:44:04,038 --> 01:44:04,324 [zaza]: oh 2053 01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:06,504 [john_aberth]: an import from the new world only in the earlier 2054 01:44:06,498 --> 01:44:06,578 [zaza]: oh 2055 01:44:06,544 --> 01:44:06,824 [john_aberth]: modern 2056 01:44:06,659 --> 01:44:06,819 [zaza]: yeah 2057 01:44:06,864 --> 01:44:07,125 [john_aberth]: period 2058 01:44:07,060 --> 01:44:07,904 [zaza]: yeah that's right 2059 01:44:07,826 --> 01:44:09,949 [john_aberth]: so that can be different but 2060 01:44:10,128 --> 01:44:10,416 [zaza]: oh 2061 01:44:10,370 --> 01:44:16,443 [john_aberth]: in any case you know you had these mass burials these mass graves and so 2062 01:44:16,645 --> 01:44:22,586 [john_aberth]: certainly it did change the way people were buried and the way people viewed death 2063 01:44:22,726 --> 01:44:28,216 [john_aberth]: i mean the scariest thing about the black death for medieval people i believe was 2064 01:44:28,696 --> 01:44:34,223 [john_aberth]: it was so sudden it could come without warning and therefore you have little time 2065 01:44:34,283 --> 01:44:34,924 [john_aberth]: to prepare for 2066 01:44:34,932 --> 01:44:35,508 [zaza]: yeah 2067 01:44:35,004 --> 01:44:37,105 [john_aberth]: death one of the comforts medival 2068 01:44:36,948 --> 01:44:37,968 [zaza]: oh 2069 01:44:37,166 --> 01:44:42,421 [john_aberth]: people had was a ritual of death where priests would come in would show you 2070 01:44:42,461 --> 01:44:47,850 [john_aberth]: the crucifix and do the last rites for you you would make confession of your 2071 01:44:47,970 --> 01:44:52,638 [john_aberth]: sin you would receive the sacrament or the ucharist and then you would 2072 01:44:52,878 --> 01:44:53,898 [zaza]: yeah 2073 01:44:52,998 --> 01:44:55,986 [john_aberth]: receive the anointing or you know the 2074 01:44:55,998 --> 01:44:56,299 [zaza]: yeah 2075 01:44:56,227 --> 01:44:59,516 [john_aberth]: anointing of oil on your forehead so 2076 01:44:59,418 --> 01:44:59,684 [zaza]: yeah 2077 01:45:01,380 --> 01:45:04,445 [john_aberth]: which is you know extreme unction it is called so 2078 01:45:04,737 --> 01:45:04,758 [zaza]: m 2079 01:45:04,746 --> 01:45:08,392 [john_aberth]: anyway you had this whole ritual but that's all upended by the black death because 2080 01:45:09,133 --> 01:45:12,398 [john_aberth]: you know for one thing there might not be a priest available 2081 01:45:12,438 --> 01:45:12,719 [zaza]: yeah 2082 01:45:12,459 --> 01:45:21,275 [john_aberth]: some many priests dan the plague themselves and also play could come so suddenly that 2083 01:45:21,455 --> 01:45:26,464 [john_aberth]: people didn't have time to prepare for death like that so there's you know a 2084 01:45:26,564 --> 01:45:33,716 [john_aberth]: fear of being unstriven or you know un you know not receiving the last last 2085 01:45:33,836 --> 01:45:35,318 [john_aberth]: rites as well 2086 01:45:35,178 --> 01:45:35,340 [zaza]: yeah 2087 01:45:35,358 --> 01:45:40,307 [john_aberth]: as a fear of being abandoned and the fear of being forgotten this is part 2088 01:45:40,347 --> 01:45:45,535 [john_aberth]: of the reason why people begin to have the portraits made because they want to 2089 01:45:45,596 --> 01:45:50,544 [john_aberth]: be remembered they don't want to be forgotten that you know they don't want to 2090 01:45:50,604 --> 01:45:55,352 [john_aberth]: simply die all alone with no one to remember them so it's one of the 2091 01:45:55,372 --> 01:45:59,759 [john_aberth]: interesting things is how part of the reason why the renaissance emerges at this time 2092 01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:05,469 [john_aberth]: is because people want their individual portraits painted so that they won't be forgotten in 2093 01:46:05,529 --> 01:46:14,049 [john_aberth]: the time mask death so culturally speaking i believe covid will affect our society it's 2094 01:46:14,110 --> 01:46:19,719 [john_aberth]: still playing out of course and we'll see how it does but you know it 2095 01:46:19,779 --> 01:46:24,656 [john_aberth]: has acted the way society behaves for example i don't go to the movie theater 2096 01:46:24,736 --> 01:46:30,698 [john_aberth]: anymore and we used to do contra dancing which is dancing in a line of 2097 01:46:30,798 --> 01:46:35,846 [john_aberth]: people but we don't do that any more so there's a lot of a lot 2098 01:46:35,906 --> 01:46:42,774 [john_aberth]: of you know cultural changes that are made because of the disease and you know 2099 01:46:42,834 --> 01:46:47,919 [john_aberth]: the black death was no different you know it had a tremendous impact on society 2100 01:46:48,870 --> 01:46:57,642 [john_aberth]: um and you know in a sense i think it i had some positive impacts 2101 01:46:58,424 --> 01:47:02,751 [john_aberth]: because of the higher wages that we mentioned you know the people had a higher 2102 01:47:02,852 --> 01:47:09,873 [john_aberth]: standard of living but in another sense it also made death more one present though 2103 01:47:09,913 --> 01:47:19,129 [john_aberth]: more prevalent and you know people wanted to adjust for that and preparations for death 2104 01:47:19,189 --> 01:47:24,907 [john_aberth]: became moe important this is why so many people want masses said for their souls 2105 01:47:26,040 --> 01:47:30,347 [john_aberth]: you know prayers for the dead you know this is what leads to the reformation 2106 01:47:30,447 --> 01:47:31,990 [john_aberth]: of course you 2107 01:47:31,924 --> 01:47:32,538 [zaza]: hm 2108 01:47:32,030 --> 01:47:37,940 [john_aberth]: know that martin luther was complaining about this that you know people are simp they 2109 01:47:38,541 --> 01:47:45,693 [john_aberth]: having prayers said indulgences for their for their souls they're buying indulgences but they're not 2110 01:47:45,813 --> 01:47:52,565 [john_aberth]: really you know thinking about what you know what is the meaning behind it so 2111 01:47:52,845 --> 01:47:58,316 [john_aberth]: you know this this sort of leads to a lot of changes i believe eventually 2112 01:47:58,496 --> 01:48:04,790 [john_aberth]: changes in society and renaissance and the reformation are the two biggest ones come to 2113 01:48:04,850 --> 01:48:10,113 [john_aberth]: my mind but i certainly think the black death contributed to those oh 2114 01:48:10,158 --> 01:48:10,518 [zaza]: yeah 2115 01:48:11,263 --> 01:48:11,469 [john_aberth]: okay 2116 01:48:11,620 --> 01:48:12,501 [zaza]: on a personal level 2117 01:48:13,590 --> 01:48:14,640 [john_aberth]: yeah 2118 01:48:13,824 --> 01:48:16,769 [zaza]: how do you deal with the dark irony of the fact 2119 01:48:16,530 --> 01:48:16,550 [john_aberth]: m 2120 01:48:16,869 --> 01:48:19,213 [zaza]: that you dedicated 2121 01:48:19,410 --> 01:48:20,610 [john_aberth]: yeah 2122 01:48:19,493 --> 01:48:23,540 [zaza]: you know a big portion of your your life and schol only work to this 2123 01:48:23,641 --> 01:48:30,227 [zaza]: famous epidemic and then you live through one now that that i mean is it 2124 01:48:30,327 --> 01:48:32,716 [zaza]: ever kind of on your mind or not really 2125 01:48:33,771 --> 01:48:36,676 [john_aberth]: why am i such a morbid person is that what you are asking i guess 2126 01:48:37,170 --> 01:48:37,571 [zaza]: no not 2127 01:48:37,437 --> 01:48:37,637 [john_aberth]: but 2128 01:48:37,651 --> 01:48:40,926 [zaza]: necessarily no um 2129 01:48:41,243 --> 01:48:41,403 [john_aberth]: but 2130 01:48:41,817 --> 01:48:41,838 [zaza]: m 2131 01:48:42,145 --> 01:48:42,525 [john_aberth]: i take 2132 01:48:42,438 --> 01:48:42,499 [zaza]: ye 2133 01:48:42,585 --> 01:48:48,661 [john_aberth]: your your question but yeah i mean why am i so fascinated by death um 2134 01:48:49,041 --> 01:48:53,509 [john_aberth]: well part of it is personal to me you know 2135 01:48:53,898 --> 01:48:55,068 [zaza]: yeah 2136 01:48:53,930 --> 01:48:59,218 [john_aberth]: i have a lung condition which you know i was born with and i had 2137 01:48:59,278 --> 01:49:04,908 [john_aberth]: an operation when i was five years old where i had what's called a a 2138 01:49:05,148 --> 01:49:05,494 [zaza]: oh 2139 01:49:05,268 --> 01:49:08,294 [john_aberth]: buy later little back to me it means they cut out a part of my 2140 01:49:08,374 --> 01:49:13,923 [john_aberth]: lungs that was infected and that was when i was five so i was you 2141 01:49:13,963 --> 01:49:18,491 [john_aberth]: know faced with the real prospect of death from an early age and that stayed 2142 01:49:18,551 --> 01:49:23,719 [john_aberth]: with me throughout childhood so i've always been fascinated in a sense by death be 2143 01:49:24,160 --> 01:49:25,082 [john_aberth]: because i came so 2144 01:49:25,137 --> 01:49:25,158 [zaza]: m 2145 01:49:25,202 --> 01:49:31,132 [john_aberth]: close to it and you know the fact that a whole you know generation of 2146 01:49:31,232 --> 01:49:40,147 [john_aberth]: people were faced with you know death fifty percent mortality death everywhere you know is 2147 01:49:40,247 --> 01:49:44,614 [john_aberth]: bound to attract me is bound to fascinate me and how they dealt with it 2148 01:49:44,714 --> 01:49:48,080 [john_aberth]: and one of the you know one of the things that i take away my 2149 01:49:48,220 --> 01:49:53,469 [john_aberth]: studies of the black death is the so called silver lining or the you know 2150 01:49:53,629 --> 01:49:58,577 [john_aberth]: the hopeful message that comes out of a study of the black death i mean 2151 01:49:58,637 --> 01:50:06,353 [john_aberth]: it may seem morbid but society survived you know that's the fact you know society 2152 01:50:06,453 --> 01:50:13,785 [john_aberth]: survived and in fact re invented itself in the renaissance in the reformation it actually 2153 01:50:13,865 --> 01:50:19,455 [john_aberth]: came out stronger you could say and from the experience that yeah there was this 2154 01:50:19,555 --> 01:50:27,148 [john_aberth]: massive die off and this massive you know threat to civilization you can easily believe 2155 01:50:27,248 --> 01:50:31,415 [john_aberth]: if you live through it that the end of the world was coming that everyone 2156 01:50:31,475 --> 01:50:38,206 [john_aberth]: was going to die but in fact you know society comes out with a cultural 2157 01:50:38,306 --> 01:50:39,769 [john_aberth]: renewal and 2158 01:50:39,618 --> 01:50:39,638 [zaza]: m 2159 01:50:40,330 --> 01:50:45,474 [john_aberth]: lot of people are a lot better off economically at least but you know of 2160 01:50:45,554 --> 01:50:52,891 [john_aberth]: course psychologically and socially you know that may not be the case but um society 2161 01:50:52,992 --> 01:50:57,157 [john_aberth]: survived and i think that's a hopeful message for us i mean covid has a 2162 01:50:57,197 --> 01:51:02,902 [john_aberth]: death rate of one per cent or less so it is not nearly as impactful 2163 01:51:02,982 --> 01:51:07,946 [john_aberth]: in that sense as the black death so we should be thankful for that um 2164 01:51:09,387 --> 01:51:13,971 [john_aberth]: i think covid did have a big impact in terms of how we relate to 2165 01:51:14,052 --> 01:51:17,876 [john_aberth]: each other simply because we had to go into lock down we had to take 2166 01:51:17,936 --> 01:51:26,136 [john_aberth]: all these precautions such as wearing mask and um you know practicing social distancing and 2167 01:51:26,196 --> 01:51:32,061 [john_aberth]: so forth but you know you know one of the things that i take away 2168 01:51:32,162 --> 01:51:33,625 [john_aberth]: from it is that modern 2169 01:51:33,378 --> 01:51:33,601 [zaza]: yeah 2170 01:51:33,666 --> 01:51:38,123 [john_aberth]: medicine is a gift i mean you look at the time of the black death 2171 01:51:38,163 --> 01:51:41,528 [john_aberth]: they didn't really you know the the doctors 2172 01:51:41,203 --> 01:51:41,224 [zaza]: a 2173 01:51:41,608 --> 01:51:47,816 [john_aberth]: were now i'm sure convinced of their remedies and that they were working but they 2174 01:51:47,876 --> 01:51:52,335 [john_aberth]: didn't work and some of them were actually kind of productive like bleeding for example 2175 01:51:53,217 --> 01:51:59,507 [john_aberth]: um so you know they didn't really have a medical response to the black death 2176 01:52:00,308 --> 01:52:05,399 [john_aberth]: they came up with a new theory the poison thesis and that you know emphasized 2177 01:52:05,740 --> 01:52:13,014 [john_aberth]: different remedies like you know theriacor drug remedies but now it didn't really impact the 2178 01:52:13,054 --> 01:52:17,862 [john_aberth]: way you know how people survive that people could survive the plague so we should 2179 01:52:17,942 --> 01:52:25,374 [john_aberth]: be grateful that we have backs vaccines and you know effective responses to disease nowadays 2180 01:52:26,857 --> 01:52:35,271 [john_aberth]: you know contact tracing testing all the rest of it you know in ation sharing 2181 01:52:36,433 --> 01:52:42,162 [john_aberth]: this is all you know things that we we need to cherish and nurture and 2182 01:52:42,263 --> 01:52:48,976 [john_aberth]: not deny or be skeptical about i mean that it's crazy and in my view 2183 01:52:49,577 --> 01:52:51,742 [john_aberth]: that's suicide impulse by 2184 01:52:52,303 --> 01:52:52,938 [zaza]: hm 2185 01:52:52,484 --> 01:53:01,323 [john_aberth]: society and by certain people individuals who who deny vaccines or deny or skeptical of 2186 01:53:01,383 --> 01:53:06,251 [john_aberth]: vaccines they simply have a suicide impulse they want to kill themselves or kill society 2187 01:53:07,694 --> 01:53:14,543 [john_aberth]: and that's just you know that's just not sustainable so you know you have to 2188 01:53:14,603 --> 01:53:17,606 [john_aberth]: decide whether you want to survive or not and that's 2189 01:53:17,572 --> 01:53:17,754 [zaza]: well 2190 01:53:17,667 --> 01:53:18,948 [john_aberth]: the most fundamental question 2191 01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:18,901 [zaza]: yeah 2192 01:53:19,008 --> 01:53:19,809 [john_aberth]: you can ask yourself 2193 01:53:20,728 --> 01:53:22,771 [zaza]: i actually got covid and i was 2194 01:53:23,030 --> 01:53:23,132 [john_aberth]: oh 2195 01:53:23,272 --> 01:53:24,454 [zaza]: really really grateful 2196 01:53:24,340 --> 01:53:24,461 [john_aberth]: ah 2197 01:53:24,514 --> 01:53:24,675 [zaza]: that 2198 01:53:25,486 --> 01:53:25,587 [john_aberth]: ah 2199 01:53:25,756 --> 01:53:27,439 [zaza]: i was vaccinated because it was pretty 2200 01:53:27,453 --> 01:53:27,614 [john_aberth]: yeah 2201 01:53:27,499 --> 01:53:32,990 [zaza]: horrible and without it you know i really don't know what i come out of 2202 01:53:33,050 --> 01:53:33,994 [zaza]: it so 2203 01:53:33,986 --> 01:53:37,737 [john_aberth]: so you know the fact that you re vaccinated made it less severe 2204 01:53:38,648 --> 01:53:40,372 [zaza]: yeah yeah absolutely 2205 01:53:40,251 --> 01:53:47,827 [john_aberth]: yeah yeah i mean that's that's a general conclusion you know of of many people 2206 01:53:47,908 --> 01:53:53,707 [john_aberth]: who who got cogid who were vaccinated is much less severe case 2207 01:53:54,358 --> 01:53:54,481 [zaza]: yeah 2208 01:53:55,030 --> 01:53:59,757 [john_aberth]: so you know even if it didn't prevent you from getting the disease at it 2209 01:53:59,817 --> 01:54:04,486 [john_aberth]: helped you survive the s so you know the fundamental question we have to ask 2210 01:54:04,666 --> 01:54:08,155 [john_aberth]: ourselves is do you want to survive do you want to live in a you 2211 01:54:08,175 --> 01:54:11,290 [john_aberth]: know to be or not to be and 2212 01:54:12,372 --> 01:54:14,037 [zaza]: let a b for 2213 01:54:13,932 --> 01:54:14,133 [john_aberth]: yeah 2214 01:54:14,117 --> 01:54:17,767 [zaza]: now at least yeah 2215 01:54:15,554 --> 01:54:20,118 [john_aberth]: that's that's the lesson of the black death i mean society did survive but it 2216 01:54:20,238 --> 01:54:21,159 [john_aberth]: took quite a tol 2217 01:54:21,834 --> 01:54:22,488 [zaza]: hm 2218 01:54:22,381 --> 01:54:26,888 [john_aberth]: and you know do you want to survive or not i mean we have the 2219 01:54:27,109 --> 01:54:30,158 [john_aberth]: blessings of modern medicine let's let's use it 2220 01:54:31,258 --> 01:54:32,843 [zaza]: yeah i completely agree 2221 01:54:33,480 --> 01:54:33,500 [john_aberth]: m 2222 01:54:34,669 --> 01:54:36,295 [zaza]: i'm glad we're kind of concluding 2223 01:54:37,290 --> 01:54:37,452 [john_aberth]: yeah 2224 01:54:37,689 --> 01:54:40,794 [zaza]: this this episode on a hopeful message but before i let you go 2225 01:54:41,473 --> 01:54:41,635 [john_aberth]: yeah 2226 01:54:41,535 --> 01:54:45,301 [zaza]: in order to stray to stay true to the name of this podcast i have 2227 01:54:45,341 --> 01:54:47,886 [zaza]: to ask you something a bit more trashy at the end 2228 01:54:48,680 --> 01:54:48,841 [john_aberth]: sure 2229 01:54:49,689 --> 01:54:53,338 [zaza]: let's say you're walking around vermont and you suddenly fall into 2230 01:54:53,280 --> 01:54:53,300 [john_aberth]: m 2231 01:54:53,398 --> 01:54:57,511 [zaza]: a portal that drops you in the middle of london at the height the black 2232 01:54:57,592 --> 01:55:00,021 [zaza]: death you don't have any modern medicine or 2233 01:55:00,030 --> 01:55:00,232 [john_aberth]: oh 2234 01:55:00,101 --> 01:55:05,535 [zaza]: gadgets with you what do you professor a bit do to maximize your chances of 2235 01:55:05,615 --> 01:55:06,036 [zaza]: survival 2236 01:55:08,100 --> 01:55:10,665 [john_aberth]: that's a good question i assume 2237 01:55:10,578 --> 01:55:10,842 [zaza]: yes 2238 01:55:10,725 --> 01:55:12,568 [john_aberth]: that i have my modern awareness 2239 01:55:13,628 --> 01:55:14,149 [zaza]: you do yeah 2240 01:55:14,530 --> 01:55:14,630 [john_aberth]: as 2241 01:55:14,690 --> 01:55:14,790 [zaza]: but 2242 01:55:14,690 --> 01:55:14,810 [john_aberth]: i'm 2243 01:55:14,810 --> 01:55:14,991 [zaza]: that's 2244 01:55:14,850 --> 01:55:15,070 [john_aberth]: being 2245 01:55:15,031 --> 01:55:15,111 [zaza]: the 2246 01:55:15,110 --> 01:55:15,431 [john_aberth]: dropped 2247 01:55:15,171 --> 01:55:15,492 [zaza]: only thing 2248 01:55:15,491 --> 01:55:15,691 [john_aberth]: into 2249 01:55:15,532 --> 01:55:15,752 [zaza]: you do 2250 01:55:15,751 --> 01:55:15,831 [john_aberth]: the 2251 01:55:15,853 --> 01:55:16,033 [zaza]: have 2252 01:55:17,072 --> 01:55:17,273 [john_aberth]: into 2253 01:55:17,256 --> 01:55:17,396 [zaza]: yeah 2254 01:55:17,333 --> 01:55:18,033 [john_aberth]: the middle ages 2255 01:55:18,348 --> 01:55:18,368 [zaza]: m 2256 01:55:18,394 --> 01:55:23,139 [john_aberth]: yeah well i would i would know for example 2257 01:55:22,878 --> 01:55:23,142 [zaza]: oh 2258 01:55:23,259 --> 01:55:31,510 [john_aberth]: that plague is primarily spread by rats and fleas so i would focus on you 2259 01:55:31,570 --> 01:55:35,777 [john_aberth]: know my my personal hygine although 2260 01:55:36,048 --> 01:55:36,248 [zaza]: yeah 2261 01:55:36,177 --> 01:55:41,767 [john_aberth]: i have to emphasize that you know the the environment of the middle ages is 2262 01:55:41,807 --> 01:55:44,152 [john_aberth]: a lot different than it is today so that's 2263 01:55:43,968 --> 01:55:44,168 [zaza]: yeah 2264 01:55:44,313 --> 01:55:51,698 [john_aberth]: one thing you're fighting against um because you know they actually did studies in the 2265 01:55:51,738 --> 01:55:56,827 [john_aberth]: third pandemic of the turn of the century of mud huts or houses in egypt 2266 01:55:56,927 --> 01:56:02,917 [john_aberth]: and bombay and bombay india i rather and these are of course very similar to 2267 01:56:03,037 --> 01:56:08,907 [john_aberth]: the houses of the middle ages that would have existed and they actually found that 2268 01:56:09,127 --> 01:56:15,802 [john_aberth]: for example in one plague in a typical plague in fact infested mud hut they 2269 01:56:15,862 --> 01:56:19,790 [john_aberth]: were on average a hundred and twenty fleas a hundred 2270 01:56:19,848 --> 01:56:20,131 [zaza]: oh 2271 01:56:19,850 --> 01:56:25,541 [john_aberth]: and twenty infected fleas in each hut and in some cases there were there was 2272 01:56:26,022 --> 01:56:29,068 [john_aberth]: in one case there was as many as two thousand eight hundred and forty three 2273 01:56:29,128 --> 01:56:29,428 [john_aberth]: fleas 2274 01:56:30,338 --> 01:56:30,859 [zaza]: so even if 2275 01:56:30,872 --> 01:56:30,932 [john_aberth]: so 2276 01:56:30,899 --> 01:56:32,862 [zaza]: you were clean your environment 2277 01:56:32,740 --> 01:56:32,900 [john_aberth]: ah 2278 01:56:32,922 --> 01:56:33,884 [zaza]: was not clean at all 2279 01:56:33,862 --> 01:56:33,943 [john_aberth]: so 2280 01:56:34,164 --> 01:56:34,204 [zaza]: in 2281 01:56:34,223 --> 01:56:34,303 [john_aberth]: you 2282 01:56:34,245 --> 01:56:34,325 [zaza]: the 2283 01:56:34,344 --> 01:56:34,464 [john_aberth]: know 2284 01:56:34,345 --> 01:56:34,645 [zaza]: modern 2285 01:56:34,504 --> 01:56:34,765 [john_aberth]: you can 2286 01:56:34,705 --> 01:56:34,926 [zaza]: sense 2287 01:56:34,845 --> 01:56:41,852 [john_aberth]: imagine there are hundreds or even thousands of fleas and in 2288 01:56:41,928 --> 01:56:42,129 [zaza]: yeah 2289 01:56:41,953 --> 01:56:47,602 [john_aberth]: a house that you're living in or entering into and they also found from these 2290 01:56:47,662 --> 01:56:57,482 [john_aberth]: experiments that imminized assistants who were iminized from the plague and we're simply walking in 2291 01:56:57,682 --> 01:57:02,808 [john_aberth]: to pick up a monkey cage they were in there for thirty seconds in this 2292 01:57:02,868 --> 01:57:09,081 [john_aberth]: house and when they came out they had nineteen fleas on their legs nineteen please 2293 01:57:09,182 --> 01:57:11,386 [john_aberth]: had jumped on their legs in that thirty 2294 01:57:11,210 --> 01:57:11,292 [zaza]: so 2295 01:57:11,486 --> 01:57:12,288 [john_aberth]: seconds of time 2296 01:57:13,128 --> 01:57:13,369 [zaza]: oh 2297 01:57:13,503 --> 01:57:14,914 [john_aberth]: so you can imagine 2298 01:57:15,217 --> 01:57:15,417 [zaza]: yeah 2299 01:57:16,500 --> 01:57:21,008 [john_aberth]: you know you know even in a very short space of time you're going to 2300 01:57:21,068 --> 01:57:26,577 [john_aberth]: have you know swarms of please jumping on you and the reason for that is 2301 01:57:27,378 --> 01:57:31,986 [john_aberth]: once the rats all died there's no other host for the fleas to feed on 2302 01:57:32,687 --> 01:57:38,136 [john_aberth]: except human so that's why you know you have a concentration of fleas in that 2303 01:57:38,216 --> 01:57:39,979 [john_aberth]: moment so 2304 01:57:40,998 --> 01:57:42,378 [zaza]: yeah 2305 01:57:41,362 --> 01:57:42,383 [john_aberth]: you're dealing with a very 2306 01:57:42,408 --> 01:57:43,068 [zaza]: yeah 2307 01:57:42,483 --> 01:57:43,385 [john_aberth]: different environment 2308 01:57:43,188 --> 01:57:43,449 [zaza]: yeah 2309 01:57:43,425 --> 01:57:49,725 [john_aberth]: than that can really limit excuse me that can really limit your response the ability 2310 01:57:49,805 --> 01:57:54,012 [john_aberth]: of your your you to respond i think 2311 01:57:54,170 --> 01:57:54,191 [zaza]: a 2312 01:57:54,393 --> 01:58:00,966 [john_aberth]: in the modern day in the modern age plague wouldn't happen because you know we 2313 01:58:01,046 --> 01:58:02,931 [john_aberth]: have a lot we have a different environment 2314 01:58:02,928 --> 01:58:03,130 [zaza]: oh 2315 01:58:02,991 --> 01:58:12,202 [john_aberth]: we have you know far far better construction materials you know better housing better hyogene 2316 01:58:12,343 --> 01:58:13,164 [john_aberth]: and so on so 2317 01:58:13,398 --> 01:58:15,763 [zaza]: but i'm not going to let you off the hook that easily 2318 01:58:15,840 --> 01:58:16,300 [john_aberth]: uh 2319 01:58:15,903 --> 01:58:18,388 [zaza]: what would you do would you just run to 2320 01:58:18,303 --> 01:58:18,944 [john_aberth]: yeah 2321 01:58:18,468 --> 01:58:21,574 [zaza]: the country side as fast as your legs carry you 2322 01:58:21,567 --> 01:58:22,308 [john_aberth]: yeah 2323 01:58:21,935 --> 01:58:22,075 [zaza]: or 2324 01:58:23,811 --> 01:58:27,178 [john_aberth]: i know i know i wouldn't enter into a home if i 2325 01:58:27,208 --> 01:58:27,471 [zaza]: okay 2326 01:58:27,258 --> 01:58:34,412 [john_aberth]: could help it i won't enter into a house because you know the rats are 2327 01:58:34,492 --> 01:58:39,420 [john_aberth]: commensal that means they live in proximity to humans so they typically burrow 2328 01:58:39,316 --> 01:58:39,438 [zaza]: yeah 2329 01:58:40,121 --> 01:58:45,671 [john_aberth]: into the walls or the roofs of these houses so i probably am i don't 2330 01:58:45,711 --> 01:58:46,492 [john_aberth]: know i might become 2331 01:58:46,331 --> 01:58:46,413 [zaza]: ah 2332 01:58:46,552 --> 01:58:48,014 [john_aberth]: a flatulent because then i could 2333 01:58:48,048 --> 01:58:48,329 [zaza]: oh 2334 01:58:48,055 --> 01:58:49,958 [john_aberth]: live out in the open air you know 2335 01:58:49,997 --> 01:58:50,058 [zaza]: ah 2336 01:58:50,018 --> 01:58:50,619 [john_aberth]: the flagulents 2337 01:58:50,658 --> 01:58:51,588 [zaza]: yeah 2338 01:58:50,659 --> 01:58:55,247 [john_aberth]: would travel from town to town and they would stay out in the open can't 2339 01:58:55,167 --> 01:58:55,188 [zaza]: m 2340 01:58:55,327 --> 01:58:57,472 [john_aberth]: basically camp out during 2341 01:58:57,389 --> 01:58:57,630 [zaza]: that's 2342 01:58:57,533 --> 01:58:57,653 [john_aberth]: that 2343 01:58:57,710 --> 01:58:57,730 [zaza]: a 2344 01:58:57,714 --> 01:58:57,996 [john_aberth]: time 2345 01:58:57,810 --> 01:58:59,296 [zaza]: very unexpected answer 2346 01:59:00,280 --> 01:59:05,614 [john_aberth]: yeah but they might you know when they came to a town they typically would 2347 01:59:05,674 --> 01:59:10,762 [john_aberth]: be offered accommodation people who came up to them and went out to host flatulent 2348 01:59:11,543 --> 01:59:13,385 [john_aberth]: i would refuse that hospitality 2349 01:59:13,398 --> 01:59:15,528 [zaza]: yeah 2350 01:59:14,105 --> 01:59:16,627 [john_aberth]: but otherwise you know they had the right 2351 01:59:16,593 --> 01:59:16,759 [zaza]: sure 2352 01:59:16,728 --> 01:59:23,486 [john_aberth]: idea camping out in the open you know staying away from you know medieval housing 2353 01:59:23,526 --> 01:59:24,949 [john_aberth]: which is basically a death trap 2354 01:59:25,930 --> 01:59:26,598 [zaza]: hm 2355 01:59:26,410 --> 01:59:31,358 [john_aberth]: i mean it's filled with hundreds of infected please if it's infected by plague so 2356 01:59:31,478 --> 01:59:32,119 [john_aberth]: forget about it 2357 01:59:33,078 --> 01:59:33,281 [zaza]: yeah 2358 01:59:33,140 --> 01:59:37,007 [john_aberth]: um you know i would try to you know camp out in the open as 2359 01:59:37,067 --> 01:59:37,908 [john_aberth]: much as possible 2360 01:59:38,358 --> 01:59:38,559 [zaza]: yeah 2361 01:59:38,810 --> 01:59:39,791 [john_aberth]: and you know 2362 01:59:39,708 --> 01:59:40,818 [zaza]: yeah 2363 01:59:39,912 --> 01:59:47,745 [john_aberth]: basically you know it's not so much avoiding company of people because plague wasn't primarily 2364 01:59:47,825 --> 01:59:52,312 [john_aberth]: spread that way so that wouldn't be a problem it's it's staying away from the 2365 01:59:52,352 --> 01:59:56,679 [john_aberth]: rats and their fleas and that's you know that's what you had to be concern 2366 01:59:56,840 --> 01:59:59,708 [john_aberth]: with so that's why i would avoid dwellings as much as possible 2367 02:00:01,029 --> 02:00:01,049 [zaza]: i 2368 02:00:01,070 --> 02:00:01,150 [john_aberth]: oh 2369 02:00:01,109 --> 02:00:01,670 [zaza]: know we're talking 2370 02:00:01,592 --> 02:00:01,793 [john_aberth]: yeah 2371 02:00:01,710 --> 02:00:05,056 [zaza]: about a really horrible period in history but your answer 2372 02:00:05,932 --> 02:00:06,900 [john_aberth]: hm 2373 02:00:06,298 --> 02:00:08,126 [zaza]: sounds kind of oddly romantic 2374 02:00:07,770 --> 02:00:07,790 [john_aberth]: m 2375 02:00:08,246 --> 02:00:08,568 [zaza]: in a way 2376 02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:09,341 [john_aberth]: yeah 2377 02:00:09,713 --> 02:00:10,235 [zaza]: bohemian 2378 02:00:09,801 --> 02:00:17,494 [john_aberth]: well yeah i mean it's it's sort of going back to an elemental style living 2379 02:00:17,654 --> 02:00:18,336 [john_aberth]: back to nature 2380 02:00:18,178 --> 02:00:18,379 [zaza]: yeah 2381 02:00:18,416 --> 02:00:18,596 [john_aberth]: if you 2382 02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:19,042 [zaza]: exactly 2383 02:00:18,656 --> 02:00:25,968 [john_aberth]: will but now that's in a sense that was you're trying to avoid the environment 2384 02:00:26,689 --> 02:00:30,937 [john_aberth]: that is spreading to the disease and that's what was spreading the disease was your 2385 02:00:31,077 --> 02:00:36,180 [john_aberth]: proximity to did rats and their fleas oh 2386 02:00:36,569 --> 02:00:39,574 [zaza]: professor a berth thank you so much for your time this was an 2387 02:00:39,660 --> 02:00:39,801 [john_aberth]: yeah 2388 02:00:39,774 --> 02:00:40,195 [zaza]: absolute 2389 02:00:39,922 --> 02:00:40,265 [john_aberth]: thank you 2390 02:00:40,275 --> 02:00:44,622 [zaza]: pleasure from start to finish i really hope we'll do a repeat some time in 2391 02:00:44,662 --> 02:00:45,604 [zaza]: the future if you'll have 2392 02:00:45,512 --> 02:00:45,532 [john_aberth]: i 2393 02:00:45,644 --> 02:00:46,265 [zaza]: time of course 2394 02:00:46,750 --> 02:00:47,274 [john_aberth]: yeah sure 2395 02:00:47,266 --> 02:00:47,527 [zaza]: also 2396 02:00:47,596 --> 02:00:48,925 [john_aberth]: yeah i enjoyed it 2397 02:00:48,878 --> 02:00:50,059 [zaza]: if our audience would 2398 02:00:49,980 --> 02:00:50,263 [john_aberth]: oh 2399 02:00:50,139 --> 02:00:52,661 [zaza]: like to check out one of your many books 2400 02:00:53,220 --> 02:00:53,240 [john_aberth]: m 2401 02:00:53,602 --> 02:00:57,125 [zaza]: i think you said at the beginning you wrote ten which one would you recommend 2402 02:00:57,165 --> 02:00:58,947 [zaza]: the most and where where can they get it 2403 02:01:00,280 --> 02:01:06,167 [john_aberth]: i recommend the the latest book i came out with called the black death it's 2404 02:01:06,227 --> 02:01:11,800 [john_aberth]: simply called the black death a new history of the great mortality in europe it's 2405 02:01:11,880 --> 02:01:19,773 [john_aberth]: published by oxford university press you can find it on amazon dot com but it's 2406 02:01:19,973 --> 02:01:26,685 [john_aberth]: it's only twenty four dollars product of seven it's a research but it's very readable 2407 02:01:26,865 --> 02:01:32,935 [john_aberth]: very accessible i cover all aspects of the disease so it's the best introduction to 2408 02:01:33,055 --> 02:01:38,088 [john_aberth]: the black death and it's certainly up date a lot of the scholarship on the 2409 02:01:38,168 --> 02:01:44,847 [john_aberth]: plague you know the last real general book was philip ziglers the black death and 2410 02:01:44,887 --> 02:01:49,217 [john_aberth]: that came out in nineteen sixty nine so it really updates a lot of the 2411 02:01:49,277 --> 02:01:56,551 [john_aberth]: research and our new knowledge about the disease so that's the best introduction that i 2412 02:01:56,631 --> 02:01:57,155 [john_aberth]: can recommend 2413 02:01:58,129 --> 02:02:00,583 [zaza]: awesome professor aber thanks again 2414 02:02:01,401 --> 02:02:04,708 [john_aberth]: thank you yeah hopefully we'll 2415 02:02:04,578 --> 02:02:04,598 [zaza]: m 2416 02:02:04,748 --> 02:02:05,249 [john_aberth]: do this again