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BPS 413: The Problem with Abusive Film Sets with Greg Hemmings · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number four thirteen.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: In the film business, it's basically honor among thieves, Able.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Ferraro broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: When we really should be working on that next draft.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: screenplay bulletproof.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage.
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  Speaker 3: Now.
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  Speaker 2: Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
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• 1:27
  Speaker 2: by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, guys,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: today on the show, we have filmmaker Greg Hemings. Now,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Greg is here to talk about something that is not
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: talked about a lot in our business, which is abuse
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: on the set. Abuse of interns, of people who are
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: below you in a way that like not physical abuse,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: though obviously there is that, and there's gonna be two
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: movement and all that stuff, but we're here to talk
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  Speaker 2: about the verbal abuse, the work abuse that's on a
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  Speaker 2: set that happens, the ribbing, the kind of just this
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: nastiness that happens, like you've got to have to like
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: kind of go through a hazing process almost when you're
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: on set. And Greg has really come out against this
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  Speaker 2: and wanted to talk about what can be done. What filmmakers,
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  Speaker 2: especially young filmmakers coming into the business, need to understand
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  Speaker 2: about abuse on the set. Look I was yelled at.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I was abused. I was verbally abused by my first
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: boss when I was working at a commercial a commercial
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: production company down in Miami. I've been abused multiple times
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  Speaker 2: on sets, meaning a verbally abused and taken advantage of.
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  Speaker 2: I was working on a TV show as an intern,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and the executive producer of that show sent me to
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: his house to help him move. You know, these are
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: kind of things that you do, and what are you
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: going to do when you're in that space, when you're
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: that young and you know, like this is such a
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  Speaker 2: powerful person, at least you perceive that they are. They
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: can either make or break you. Are you going to
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: say no? Are you going to just eat it? Well,
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  Speaker 2: that's what this whole town is built on. It's built
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: on people eating crap a lot of times from other
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: people who have made it to a certain level in
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: the business who abuse them. And it needs to stop.
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  Speaker 2: And Greg and I really have a very candid conversation
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: about that and what can be done, how you should
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: react to those situations and so on. So, without any
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Greg Hemmings.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: I'd like to.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. Greg Hemmings man. How you doing,
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  Speaker 2: Greg so good? Thanks so much for having me on.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: This is fantastic man.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on the show man.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Thanks for reaching out. A mutual friend of ours, Jimmy
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: connected us and you know you wanted to come on
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: to talk about a bunch of things. And I think
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: the main focus we're going to be doing today is
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: abuse in the business, which is shocking because I've never
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: heard of any abuse in the business. Have been a
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: very Pollyannic kind of world of film industry. There is
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: no abuse, there's no yelling, there's no you.
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  Speaker 3: Know, it's just a kind place. And you know, it's
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: a it's certainly not a shame based learning environment. It's
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: a it's a place to thrive in blossom.
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  Speaker 4: I I feel, I feel so the same way.
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  Speaker 2: That's why I'm bringing all my my children will all
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: be starting from scrat It'll be great. It'll be great. No,
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: We're We're gonna talk about something that really is is
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: a little bit more in the news now. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: Scott Rudin is now famously being basically thrown out of
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  Speaker 2: Hollywood because of the decades of abuse that he has
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: given people.
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  Speaker 4: I didn't know he was the best.
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  Speaker 2: He was the source for the very famous film Swimming
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: with the Sharks.
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  Speaker 4: Uh, he was.
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  Speaker 2: So there was a movie called Swimming with the Sharks
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  Speaker 2: with Kevin with Kevin Spacey as I mean, you can't write,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: you can't write this stuff, man, I'm sorry. So Kevin
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Spacey was playing the agent, and I forgot who the
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I think it was John Cryer or or not even
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: it was John Cryer or another actor of that of
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: that generation.
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  Speaker 4: I forgot who.
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  Speaker 2: Starred as the assistant. And the assistant was just getting
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  Speaker 2: i mean, just destroyed by this producer. And everybody in
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: town knew who it was, but out in the world
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  Speaker 2: nobody knew. And it was Scott ruden he was he
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  Speaker 2: was the producer. So it was a very quiet, hush
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  Speaker 2: hush thing. But now it just started to come out.
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, it Scott Rudin, who was based the
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  Speaker 2: basis of that that horrible human being, and uh and
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: the whole concept of the bullying and all that stuff.
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  Speaker 4: We'll get we'll get into him.
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  Speaker 2: But at first, I want to know, how did you
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  Speaker 2: get started in this fantastically pollyannic world that is Hollywood.
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  Speaker 3: Well, okay, so I've got a very long version of
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: the story which I will not go into, but I'll
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  Speaker 3: I appreciate it. I'll try my best to connence it.
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  Speaker 3: So high school, okay, we're going way back into the
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  Speaker 3: mid nineties playing a rock band, and like every kid
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: playing drums in a rock band, you assume that's what
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: you can do for a living, and that obviously you know,
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: and going to the career of touring and playing music.
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  Speaker 3: For me, it didn't quite ten out that way. That's okay.
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  Speaker 3: But in grade eleven, I was in media studies class
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  Speaker 3: and I was like, I got to make a music
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  Speaker 3: video for for my band. And back then, of course,
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  Speaker 3: all we had was multiple VHS decks, and we had
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  Speaker 3: the video toaster, classic classic software, the best wipes, the
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  Speaker 3: best stripper wipes you could ever imagine.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, they had like the oil.
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  Speaker 2: It was all we were talking about this before we started.
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  Speaker 2: Was like they had this this woman dancing as a transition,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: which was obviously a stripper. There was a pole transition
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: with like I mean they actually just shot the footage
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: of these these so there was sheep falling, there was
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: oil transitions, but it was literally physical things that they shot.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: And I guess they keyed and then read and transition
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  Speaker 2: for it. So it was it was revolutionary at the time.
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  Speaker 3: Like man, just as a quick as side Alex, we
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: should do a short film trying to find the guys
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  Speaker 3: who designed and go girls who designed those wipes like
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: their epic and they don't exist anymore, like you said,
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: but wipes of falling sheep anymore.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: You know what I gotta tell you. I found I
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: found them. I actually did research and I found them.
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  Speaker 2: They are available because I wanted I wanted to put
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: them out. I like, I'm like, I want to just
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: create the video toaster, like who owns these things?
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  Speaker 4: And I found them.
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  Speaker 2: I think you can insert them somehow in uh in somewhere.
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  Speaker 4: But anyway, this is a side note.
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  Speaker 2: Let's not get into a video toaster episode.
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  Speaker 3: It's a good digression for anybody in the in the
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  Speaker 3: nineties who was in the in the in the industry
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  Speaker 3: at all. Anyhow, I made this music video and I
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  Speaker 3: was like, this is really cool. And so the only
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  Speaker 3: thing I did in high school with video was making
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: and I was like, hey, putting images to music, it's
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: really awesome. And I remember I was in my IV
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: history class and we were doing this thing on Pompeii,
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: and I took Pink Floyd's Live at Pompeii music track,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: but then I started editing a whole bunch of other
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: I was essentially rebuilding the film the Pink Floyd did
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: it anyway, but I did it my own way, and
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: that was my project, and I was like, hmm, this
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  Speaker 3: is really cool. So for me, it was all music
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: and film, music and video and images coming together, and
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: I never really thought about it again. But except for
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  Speaker 3: the fact that I'm a creative guy, I'm a musician
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: and that was a lot of fun playing with video.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: Fast forward to graduation. I go to arts at the
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: university in my town, and I just felt like it
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: was an extension of high school. Nothing no disrespect to
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: the university itself, just all my same friends, the same location.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: And I was just going to arts because I didn't
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: know what else to do. And then a buddy of
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: mine at a Christmas party I was at. He was
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: in Ontario and I hadn't seen him in years, and
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: I asked him what he's doing. He goes, I'm going
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: to film school. I said, that sounds way cooler than
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: what I'm doing. So it was literally out of boredom
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: that I was like, that sounds way more cool. So
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: I ended up flying to go to the same film school.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: I got accepted at Nagara College and in Niagara Falls, Ontario,
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: and went there for three years to study broadcast television
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: and film. And that's when we're shooting with Super sixteen
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: and editing everything on the stainback. And you know, like
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: I loved becoming an editor with film, you know, like
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: it really was a it was a gift to learn
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: on film. You know, Avid was starting to come onto
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: the scene, but you know, early days, Avid, it was
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty grand if you wanted to jump
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: into that e then So it was really it was
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: really cool to learn the art of storytelling, even as
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: a cinematographer, knowing full well how much that little real
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: role of film costs. You know, you're not taking five
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: six seven takes. You're doing five six seven rehearsals and
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: then a take, and then when you make a cut,
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: you better be sure it's the right cut, because you're not.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: You don't have the money to get a reprint.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: So I really think that learning in the film film
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: school environment was really cool for me to to become
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: an efficient, you know, a cinematographer, director and editor in
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: the earlier years. Quick fast forward into graduating out of college,
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: I immediately joined the union and started in the IATs
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: and I started in the camera department. And it is
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: there that I really get to understand the the movie magic,
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: you know, behind the scenes of how movies are made,
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: and working on big crews, you know, one hundred and
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: two hundred people cruise and doing science fiction series and
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: you know, movies of the week. And I remember doing
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: a Disney movie in my first or second year and
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: just at a lot of really interesting projects. And I
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: thought at that point my track was to become, you know,
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: a director of photography. So you know, the camera department
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: was my was my angle. And you know, I don't
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: know if this is where we want to go into
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: the into the crisis point. But I don't know about you, Alex,
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: but if you're a creative person working in what's supposed
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: to be a creative industry, but it is like walking
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: on eggs shells and you are you're in an environment
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: where the stress is so high there's so much money
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: on the table, and you know, Pooper rolls downhill as
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: they say, my kids just walked in. It's a dollar
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: every time I say the sah word. So and I
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: just remember feeling after, you know, working you know, working
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: through the ranks and the camera department, never being happy
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: going to work. You know. I'm like, this is supposed
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: to be movie magic, Like is this supposed to be
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: like the dream? You know? And I was like, people
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: don't respect people here, Like you're respected if you're up,
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: but you're not respected if you're down. And you know,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: I understood that concept of shame based learning, you know,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: like if you screwed up, brought the wrong lens, or
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: if you didn't guess what the next lens was that
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: your first was calling out for. You know, that sort
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: of thing got reprimanded publicly. And for me, I had
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: the great blessing Alex of never being bullied in my
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: life as a kid. I was one of those kids
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: that was friends with everybody, you know, and somehow I
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: got saved from being picked on. Maybe I was picked on,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: but I probably had thick enough skin that I didn't
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: recognize it. I don't know, So being having the sense
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: of being bullied as an adult after spending three years
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: doing the film school, telling all your friends and family
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: that you're gonna be working in the film industry, and
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: then a couple of years into it, realizing that you
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: don't want to do it anymore, and feeling that awful
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: feeling of am I going to quit this thing? My
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: whole identity right now is tied up in this thing,
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: right But I had that soul issue of I'm a
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: creative person and I wake up and go to set
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: and I feel I feel like the creativity is being
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: beaten out of me. And you know, some people listening
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: to this might might think, oh, well, Greg, you know
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: tough enough, that's the way it is, and you're right,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: it is the way it is. But that's not the
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: way I am, nor is the way I wanted to
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: invest my precious life. You know that, you know, going
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: to any job where your soul gets sucked at you,
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: what's the point? You know? So that's how I got
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: into the film industry. And I'll pause there for a
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: second because you might have another direction you want to
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: go into. But the how right after I quit, like
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: literally the day I said I'm done it was the
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: last day on a something like a seven month series.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: I lived in a little oter home behind the set.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: It was pretty cool. That part was neat, but I
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: ended up going on this adventure that was completely life changing.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: Which I'll pause right now is every great storyteller will
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: just to leave you, leave you hanging. But yeah, anyway,
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: I just want to ask you a question first, But
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: how I got into the industry. I fell in love
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: with film at film school, which is kind of a
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: neat props to film school because I wasn't a film
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: guy for that.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: So so I mean, look, you and I are of
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: similar vintage. So you and I as vintage as we'd
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: like to say, a nice way of saying we're both old.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: So but you know, we came up around the same time,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: maybe in different parts of the country, maybe in different industries.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Around the time that you were in Canada doing what
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: you were doing. I was down in Florida going through
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: that process as well. And my first, my first meeting
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: with that kind of environment was my first internship at
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: a very predominant commercial production house and there were a
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: couple of owners. One of them was the sweetest man
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: in the world, and the other one was bipolar.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: He was bipolar.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: In the days that he did not take his medicine,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: he was a monster. And the day he took his medicine,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: he was the nicest human being on the planet.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: So it was you know, and that was the first time.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: That I would get publicly yelled at for whatever I did,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: some thing wrong I was And this is all office stuff.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: So in the office, I would be yelled and everybody
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: in the office kind of felt that energy, like, oh, oh,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: he's here kind of energy. And I was twenty whatever,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: I was like twenty one, twenty two.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: I was a young kid, and him yelling at me.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: But then like the next day show up and it
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: would just freak you out because you would just like, hey,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: that's how you do it.
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, what the hell? Man, Like it's fine
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: for what are mine trips? And he says, hey, man,
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: you know I want to watch this movie. I'm going
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: to show you this movie. So like one day he would.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Be like a mentor and the next day he would
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: literally just come in like.
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: A rampaging bull.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: So that was the first experience of that, and then
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: that kind of that kind of experience happened again and
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: again on sets. I did a lot of internships on
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: a Universal's back lot in Orlando when I was in
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: film school. I worked on a lot of TV shows
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: there and got hired as a PA and all that stuff.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: And I would see the same thing. I was on
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: a Fox show and the producer would show up and
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: everyone be really quiet, and you know, like, how is
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: he feeling today? Is he Is he going to destroy somebody?
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And you would and I would see him. He never
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: took it out on me because I was just so
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: low on the total pole that I didn't even matter,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: but he he would destroy, like you know, writers right
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: there or other producers or other staff. Uh, and you
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: want to talk about abuse. One day he's like, hey, uh,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: the the producer Boris. His name was Boris, which of
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: course his name was Boris. Uh, the bors Boris wants
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: you to do a special run for him. I'm like, oh, great,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: this is awesome. I'm gonna do a special run. So
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: that gives me and I'm at his house. I'm like great.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: So I I drive out to the house with a
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: couple other pas and you know, we're in the van
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: and we basically moved his house for him for free.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: So we basically we were his movers for the day.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we like he was moving far more scandalous. I
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: don't know, I didn't know where you were going there, but.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah it could have I could have you know,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: I could have gone real like, yeah, I could have
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: been uh you know the the I could have been weinsteined,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: but I wasn't.
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: So no, but it was. It was.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: But still that's a form of abuse because what do
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: you say.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: Do you say no to that?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Because if you say no to that, then you risk
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: your position in the pro in the production, and if
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: you get fired from that production your chances of moving
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: up the scales is hard. So they understand that they
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: have power that they can kind of twist and use
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: an abuse, especially of the young, especially of the of.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: People who are just starting out.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: You just eat it because you have no choice because
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: the opportunities of our business are so minuscules. Sometimes, especially
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: at that era, there was no like, hey, grab your
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: own iPhone and make your own movie like that. That
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: didn't that was a tough sell to do that. It
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: still cost obscene amounts of money, you know, tens of thousands,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: even on the lower end, you know, Clerk still cost
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: twenty three grand, you know, you know, you know, slackers
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: still call lost money. You know, these these movies still
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: still do cost money. And I was in no position
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: to do anything like that.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: So those are the kind of.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: First stories that first times I felt that kind of thing.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: And you're absolutely right with I love that term shame
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: based learning, because that's what it is on set. And
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I've been a director for years, and I've been on
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: set for years, and I see it. It's never been
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: when I'm on a set and I'm a director, I
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: never allow abuse. Uh, but that ribbing which sometimes can
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: especially in the camera in the grip department. Oh Jesus,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: the camera in the grip department.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: They're brutal. They're just brutal.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: But a lot of times they won't do it publicly.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: They'll do it within their own own own hazingius.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: It's a hazing process. And some of that is kind
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: of ribbing, and it's kind of fun and you're like,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: you know, you got oh you got a tough enough.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: It's the business and that's fine and some of that stuff,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's a fun environment as long as
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: if the person doesn't feel like they're being abused. But
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: even then you've got you got to balance that kind
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: of that line, you know, but.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Think about that in any other industry. So really good
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: point is this is why it's so hard for me
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: to quit, because I was like, it wasn't easy to
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: get into the union, wasn't easy to go through film school.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: And once you get in, you get to wait for
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: your next turn to get called back. And so you're right,
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: there is a there's a scarcity approach to the to
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: the film industry that makes us all want to do
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: the right thing and say the right things and you know,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: make the right people happy. But unfortunately, if you've got
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: the wrong people in positions of power, the abuses is
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: so easy, right and convenient. And that's but like any
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: other industry. Hey, it happens in every other industry of course,
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: but specifically in the film industry because it's so scarce
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: and it's so special, Like the film industry is so
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: so magical from the outside.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Right, it's just a market. It's just a marketing and
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: branding tool. Like I always say, Hollywood's great at the sizzle,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: but it sucks at the stake. We'll be right back
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: after a word from our sponsor. And now back to
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the show. You know they I mean, and I always
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: use the analogy of the Oscars.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: You know, when you see Oscar Night.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you've been down to Hollywood Boulevard,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, if you go Oscar Night, man Oscar
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Night in a normal Oscar Night situation, red carpets, that
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Hollywood Boulevard looks like a magical place. You leave the
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: next week, I mean you should.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: You can't walk if you walk a block or two
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: away from the Adobe Theater.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: You know, the darker it gets, the more chances you're
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: gonna get stabbed or hit with a needle.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: Like it's a horrible, horrible place.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: Funny, I was in Hollywood just before the pandemic hit,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: so I think it was November of nineteen, was that right, Yeah? Yeah,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: And we're putting a film festival on at Wanderlust Yeah
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: really cool yoga yoga spot as an impact film festival.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: So I brought it in. You know, films from Patagonia
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: and from you know, a bunch of different like B
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: corp companies that are doing like corporate but like documentaries
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: that are really you know, making making the world change.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: And sol pancake plays like that. It was a really
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: cool gun. But I remember one of the nights I
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: was there, it was like nine o'clock at night and
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: everything was shut on Boulevard. There's no like there's one
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: pizza place we found, and I was like, I thought
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: this place is I thought it was like the strip
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: in Vegas. No, no, no, it's horrible.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: It's Look.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you my first experience going to Hollywood Bolvard.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: This is what happens when anyone comes to La who's
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: visiting people who live in La. So I was visiting
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: someone who lived in La and I the first thing
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: my wife and I said, like, we gotta go to
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Hollywood Bullvard and you see the face just go like, Okay,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: it's not what you think it is. I'm like, no, no, golly, Hollywood.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: I want to put I want to see.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Where the hands are in the prints in the Chinese Theater.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So we drive there and this is before Madame Tussau's.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: That whole complex was just a parking lot right when
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I got there. So we park right next to the
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Chinese Theater. We get out, and the moment we get out,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: some woman, random woman walking by, she goes, hey, and
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: she just flashes us and she's like, whoa Hollywood. And
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: then and then my buddy turns to me and goes,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: welcome Hollywood. I was like, holy cow, and like and
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: then I just walked around. I'm like, this is horrible,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Like this is nasty, this is I don't want to
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: be here. Anytime I've ever had to go down to
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Hollywood Boulevard, it always I'm like, ugh, I have to
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: go to the Chinese theater for a film festival or something,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh God, I don't want to go down there.
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: Oh it's horrible. But that is the sizzle and the stake.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: That's what Hollywood is so brilliant at. They are the
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: best propa. They're the best propaganda machine in history because
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Hollywood and movie stars and our culture here in America
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: in general has been exported to the entire world.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: In the entire world buys it.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: But the at the end of the day, it's not
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: real life is not like friends, you know, it's just not.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: It's it's not.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: It wasn't when they were making it. They couldn't afford
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: that damn apartment in New York in a real life
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Like how the hell? So we're going on a tangent,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: but that is this is in the stake.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, Yeah, so they that's uh. I think
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: it's like a little bit of a dream crusher too
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: in a way when when young people get into the
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: industry and uh, and they're present and you know what,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: this doesn't happen everybody, you know, it just happened to me.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: You know, other people thrive in that and they learn
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: really great in that and all that. I do remember
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: feeling great responsibility. It's a camera trainee and there's a
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: second camera assistant holding that megafilm that we that we
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: shot probably for the last hour and a half with
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: who knows what the payroll was for the actors that
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: are on that one thing of film. And here's me,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: the lowest paid guy on set going into the dark
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: room or into the dark bag? Why would shoot changing it?
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: And if one ounce of light gets into that like
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: it was incredible. So I understand the pressure. I understand
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: why it's so critical to be militant and precise, but
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: there's ways of doing that that help people be inspired
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: and excited. And you know, fast forward to where we
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: are now, that's the film culture. I've been trying to
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: build surrounding my company, but you know, going going back
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: just to finish off my journey. I ended up. A
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: couple of days after I quit the industry, I went
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: to see one of my favorite bands play in a
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: neighboring town and this this lady came up to me
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: and named Charlene. I never met her before, but she
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: had a flask of yeagermeister. She's like, you want some
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: ygger and I was like, yes, I do. So I
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: had a couple of swigs and she told me that
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: her her ole man, her boyfriend was this Dutch captain
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: who lived in a sailboat in the Caribbean and he
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: runs cargo like all over the place. And I was like,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: I used to say when I was a kid, I'd
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: love to do that. And literally this week before nine
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: to eleven, so it was very easy to get a passport.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: I didn't have a passport yet. Just a number of
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: days later, I had my passport and I was on
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: an airplane. Had no idea what was getting myself into.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: And like I said earlier, like this, you know what's
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: the scandalous thing? Were what to jump into? I was like,
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: am I going to be running drugs on the sailboat.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Is it going to be guns? Is it? What are
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: we doing here? Because nobody told me, just like here's
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: your plane ticket, he needs crew, So I land and
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: I ended up living on a sailboat, on a massive
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: one hundred and ten foot saleboat. And there's just captain
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: me and this other guy named Tyris from Saint Lucia,
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: and we delivered cargo with a little crane. It could
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: we pickup trucks, so it could we rive refrigerators, fish, whatever,
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: And we'd sail into little markets, I say, markets like
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: island markets where the big cargo ships wouldn't be able
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: to get to efficiently, so we would get we'd fill
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: up the supplies for shops, grocery stores, whatever, very quickly
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: and efficiently, all by the power of the wind. So
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: like we'd sail like fifteen pickup trucks to islands and stuff.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: And the film industry and the sale it comes from
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: the sailing world, right, if you're a sailor, there's a
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: good chance you're gonna be a good rigger and a
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: good grill.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Good grip.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, absolutely, all.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: That sort of thing. So it felt very natural, and
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: I was smart enough to use a few dollars before
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: I went on that trip to buy my first camera,
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: which is the Canon gl One, and I just documented
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: that whole experience down there, and my time in the
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Caribbean continued. I after the sailing adventure that went on
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: for a very long time, I jumped on a cruise
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: ship as a theater guy, and quickly they found out
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: that I was a film guy. And I opened up
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: some of their broadcast departments on some of the ships
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: and they had Avid so like one hundred and fifty
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars version of that where I'm like, oh, this
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: is nice. So I would come home in the summer
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: and I would make music documentaries do you know different
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: music festivals and whatnot. And I come back in the
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: winter and do my job, but also edit all my
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: films on the avids on the cruise ships.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: And I did that free time off. Yeah, free time off.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Isn't it funny though? Isn't it funny? What you're saying
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: is because I've said this so many times. When you
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: get bit by the bug, you can't it's it's a
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: it's it's an infection.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: You can't get rid of it.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: It's it's done. It's in your bloodstream.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: I thought I was done, but I wasn't.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: It comes back up wherever you are in life.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: You're like, I'm gonna cruise ship. I should maybe bring
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: a camera. Like that's that's a sickness. It's not like
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: I'm just gonna leave.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: It is an illness because like you know, when you
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: leave McDonald's from a job, like I quit McDonald's, I
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: will never work in the fast food industry again. You
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: don't go to another job and go, you know what,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: we need burgers. Like it's not you bring with you
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: but a thing. It's once you're in, it's in you
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and you can't get rid of it. And it can
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: go dormant for years, by the way, a decade or
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: two could go by.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: It'll always live underneath.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: And I got I got sixty year old seven year
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: olds seriously come to me like, you know what, I
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: just retired. I want to be a filmmaker now again.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: And I got the money. I'm gonna go make my
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: first movie.
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: And that's it's just it's an illness.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: That's the name of your next book, Alex.
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: The illness, the old, the illness, the illness. No, it's
• 28:04
  Speaker 5: the beautiful illness, but it's not really It depends on
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: the illness. It could beautiful, it could be horrible. It
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: all depends.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: But that's fascinating that that's the kind of route you
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: went to. Like my route was more post. I found
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: my life in post because one, I didn't have to
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: deal with anybody, generally the one person maybe a producer.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: The abuse wasn't as much inside of a room one
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: on one, because there's a bravery that needs to be
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: there from the person in power to yell at the
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: person who has control of your entire nobody else around,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: right right, So there wasn't as much abuse. I don't
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: think I was ever really yelled at in post. I
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: can't remember if I did. I've forgotten it over the years,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't as prevalent. It is on set because
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: the egos are on set and you've got to show off,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: and sometimes it's and there's politics involved in all that
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: kind of stuff. I did have a fistfight start in
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: my in my post suite, not me. I was between
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: a client and UH and the agency who got fired.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: The agency got the agency got fired mid edit.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: There's a fist fight.
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: It's Miami. It's Miami.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: It's Miami's magic right there.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: It's my It's it's Miami, bro, It's it's Miami. It happens.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: But you, you know you when you when you reached
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: out to me the first time you sent me this
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: amazing article about your America American ninja or American American, Yes,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: American Ninja, the American the American Ninja. Michael Dudkov on
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: sets behavior. Can you please please please throw it out
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: into the world.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: I'd love to tell this story because it's it really
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: wasn't a hurtful experience, but it embodies everything we're talking
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: about here. Okay, so it was my first film. So
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: my buddy Andrew Tibby and I he was my buddy
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: by the way, that got me into film school. But
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: that both of us we got on our very first
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: feature film together.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: And now back to the show.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: And Sydney Fury was the director. And Sidney Fury did
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: Iron Eagle and Superman four and a bunch of other
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: interesting Superman four okay, so look him up though. Sidney
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: Fury is one of those guys that that directed a
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: whole bunch of awesome films that were that were typically
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: with numbers besides them, you know, yeah, but a really
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: well respected director. He was a lovely man. I don't
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I'm assuming he's still around, but he was. He was
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: older at the time, so this would have been late nineties.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: And I went with Tidby, my buddy, and we we said,
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: can we We're in film school right now, our second year,
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: can we can we? It was the summertime, can we
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: get a gig? And I said, well, we don't have
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: any budget, but we're welcome to come and be a
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: trainee volunteer trainee, and we're like, let's do it, you know.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: And it was it was a very quick shoe too
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: is in like three weeks or something, and it was insane. Man.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: They had like four camera shooting at the same time
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: because it was such a quick turnaround. So it was
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: it was nutty. And so we started to learn a
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: little bit of the ropes and it's totally different film
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: school teaching one thing. The real world thing is completely different.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: And hence where I learned immediately about the shame based
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: learning thing. And we got bullied really bad, I I
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: you know, and that's it was just a weird experience
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: to go through. But Michael Dodicaf the American Ninja. I
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: remember the scene Marlee Matlin. You know Marley Mattin of.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Course, the Oscar winning actress from Children of a Lesser God.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Which was shot in my city, Saint johniey Brunswick.
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've always heard she's a very sweet.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Interestingly, Marley Matlin was back. We were shooting that feature
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: here in Saint John and the East Coast of Canada,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: and that would have been her second film here because
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: she did Children of a Lesser God back in the eighties.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: Here was the scene and Michael Dudicoff's character was to
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: come into the room. She was laying in bed and
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: he was coming in with a bunch of papers. It
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: was just setting up the scene talking to his wife.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: And so Michael comes in, we do he doesn't come in.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: We do the slates because we had multiple cameras in
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: this scene. There's two cameras going on, so my buddy
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: Andrew had one slate. I had the other so camera
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: a slate camera B slate and then we would tuck
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: around the door and then Doudkuff would come running through
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and the scene would start. So he came running through,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: all right, and he tripped over Andrew's leg. All the
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: papers go everywhere, and of course the scene gets okay,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: cut cut, and Michael Dudicuff gets up in a rage
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: and I'm just it's so bizarre in front and he
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: pulls his leg back and wallops Tibby right in the stomach,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: kicks him. And the comedy of all of this is
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: the American Ninja himself uses a ninja leg to kick
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: Tiddy in the gut. And you know, I talked to
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: him to my buddy Timmy just the ed day of
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: the story, and we laughed so much because it's like,
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: who else can say that they got kicked by the
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: American ninja? You know? But the what I recognized on
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: that shoot that was so awful in so many different
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: ways that nobody said anything, nobody a thing, and it
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: was the most inappropriate behavior it was. It was a
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: little a little rage that the guy had and he
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: didn't hurt Tidby or anything, you know, but it's just
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: like symbolically, I was like, oh, this is we're in
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: the union. Isn't there some union or something? So here's
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: an interesting thing. Just to tie that story up, Sidney
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: Fury at the rap party came up to me and said, boys,
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: you know, great work. Sorry, I saw a lot of
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: a lot of people picking on you guys. Sorry sorry
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: about that, but I really appreciate all the effort you
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: put in to help me with my vision of my film.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: And then he found out that we were volunteers. And
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: then as soon as you found out we didn't get paid,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: he stopped the party. There's a band plan and everything stopped.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: The party got up on the microphone and was so
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: pissed off, and he was like, he did this big
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: speech to the whole thing and said, I just found
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: out that those two guys that you guys have been
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: so disrespectful to throughout this whole film, we're not getting paid.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: They were volunteering on my film to help me, to
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: help make this a better film. And then he pulled
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: out one hundred dollars bell and put it in his
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: hat and he goes, everybody's putting money in here. So
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: the hat went around the room. Everybody put money in it.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: I bought it. I bought my first motorbike with that money.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: And here's the interesting thing that he said. Remember this
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: feature was being shot here in my part of the country,
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: so people that I would come to get to know.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: This is our first, my first film, so there's all
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: new people. He said, you all of you have to
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: watch out. Eventually all of you will be working for
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: these two guys, so be careful with who you pushing
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: around and bully. Now, interestingly, the bullies on that set
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: were the Toronto crew, not the local crew. The local
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: crew were great. But that that prophecy came true because
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: we did become producers, both of us in our own companies,
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: and hired a lot of these guys. And but I
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: really liked what Sidney Fury said. There is be careful
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: who you disrespect, just on the on the basis of
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: it's probably going to bite you in the butt down
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: the road, right, And uh, I thought it was a
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: really cool of him to do that. Also, I rolled
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: my eyes a bit, and I was like, funny that
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: if we were getting paid, it was okay to get
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: kicked by the American Ninja.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: But to be fair, I mean many people would have
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: been would have paid to get kicked by the American Ninja.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: So that I mean, in a way, I suppose we did.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: No like we're laughing, we're joking about it, but that
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: that is is so on, that is so unacceptable. I've
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: never seen physical violence from an actor to an intern
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: or volunteer.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: Ever in my life, let alone to anybody else on set.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Physical I've never heard much many physical fights, other than
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: maybe amongst the higher ups. Like when the gods are fighting,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: that's one thing, but the gods generally don't fight with
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: the with the mortals if you if you will in
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: that whole And even as I'm saying that it's ridiculous,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: they're they're human beings. Just because they're at a higher
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: level in the business doesn't give them more or less
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: rights to hurt you or to abuse you.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: It's not right.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Like we started off the conversation Scott Ruden, who is
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: legendary for being a complete ass and and and literally
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: torturing people, throwing things at people, physically attacking people, I mean, Harvey,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: mister Weinstein, and that he doesn't deserve the mister Weinstein,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Harvey the ass. He was the one of the biggest
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: bullies in Hollywood in a town full of bullies, and
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: and we're just talking about this kind of abuse. I mean,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: obviously the hole Me Too movement is I mean, that's
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: a whole other level of abuse.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: That you and I were guy in the you know,
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: like like the fact that we felt it like if
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: you're a minority, or if you're of a different you know,
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: sexual orientation or a female, like everything stacked against you
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: on that old school way of doing films. And think
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: about where. You know, Hollywood is the birthplace of this culture.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: In those early days, we weren't focusing on businesses that
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: are focused on jet you know, justice, equity, diversity, diversity
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: and inclusion. We weren't trying to create equitable workplaces and
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: safe places. It was run by men that want to
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: make a lot of money. And that's that culture continue.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: It's very hard to break those patterns, you know.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: And no question, no, no question at all.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: And I was I was lucky in the sense because
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: I came up in Miami where I'm a man of color,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I'm a Latino man, so it was there was like
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: that's the crew. So there was Latino people there in
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Miami when big like bad boys would show up or
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Miami Vice like, there was.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: You know, there was Latinos everywhere.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: But anytime I rarely ever saw a female on set
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: unless they were in a certain department, whether it be
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: costume or makeup or something like that. Occasionally, once in
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: a blue moon, I would see a female grip and
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: that always blew my mind. I've had female grips work
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: on my set and it blew my mind because at
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: the time, I'm like, man, she's got to be putting
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: up with some some stuff, because I mean, if you're
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: in the grip department, that's the arguably, and I've been
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: in the grip department, that's arguably.
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: The roughest place to be part of.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: It is the carneys. It is the carneys.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: They eat raw meat.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: I mean it is. I mean it is, and I
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: love them, by the way. I love my grips, love
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: my grips, and I'll be the first to call them
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: out in front to their faces, like guys, you know,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: you guys are crazy. The only the only group that's
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: crazier than the grips is the stunt team. Like the
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: stunt guys, the stunt guys and gals. The stunt guys
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: and gals, by the way, argue really interesting. Female stunt
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: women are more respected and more They're much more respected
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: than any other area on the set for females because
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I remember having working with a stunt team and the
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: female man. They the females were as respected, if not
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: more so, for doing the stunts and because I guess
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I don'tn't know why, but it was.
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: But the stunt people.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: I've never met a stunt person who wasn't twisted and
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: weird it whacked out in their heads somewhere in the best,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: most beautiful way possible, because.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: This is you get it. It's just like being an entrepreneur.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: You have to be you have to bet something wired.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: You gotta be wired differently because this is this is
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: this is a conversation as a director to a stunt
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: person and or stunt coordinator. I'll go, hey, okay, I'll
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: need you to jump off that ten foot beam. They're like, great,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: can I do the forty foot beam instead? We'll be
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: right back after a word from our sponsor, and now
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: back to the show. Every time, every time I need
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: you to do one flip, can I do two flips
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: and crash into the like they always are amping it
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: up to a place and I'm like, the.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: More to the screen.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: They want to But that's that the beauty of the
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: stuff of the stunt community. They always want to just
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: and then sometimes us as directors and producer are like, nah, dude,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: you're not jumping off the fifty story building. I know
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: you want to, we don't have the budget, Like no, no, no,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I was kidding it and this is and then they'll
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: always just like, no, no, I got a boy who's
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: got the rig and the thing, and we could do that,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: and we could do that. I just want it for
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: my reel and I'm like, okay, dude, just it's wonderful.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: It's it's absolutely wonderful. I love I love I love
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: my grips, I love.
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: My stunt teams.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: But there's like I have to ask you though, Okay,
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So look, a lot of a lot of people listening now,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: A lot of people are young filmmakers coming up. Some
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: of them are in film school, some of them are
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: teenagers thinking about coming into the business. I put myself
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: back into that mindset of where I was in that
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: production company when I was coming up.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: What do you do?
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Because if you call it out or if you report
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: it or something, and this is the reality of what
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: we do. If you are called out as someone who
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: just calls it out or reports it or creates problems,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: chances are that other production companies, other people in that
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: area might hear about them like, oh, we don't want
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: that person because they're a problem. And that's happened. I've
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: seen that happen. It's not right, but I've seen it happen.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: So what are the options in your opinion for you know,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: what do you do because you are in such a
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: powerless situation because you want something that they want, so
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: unless you go off and do it yourself like you did.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: I just feel like we're living in a time right now, Yeah,
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: right now, and Black Lives Matter, George Floyd, Me Too movement,
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: all the stuff, even going back to Occupy Wall Street,
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: like we're living in an era Arab's Spring, Like all
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: of this is happening right in the last decade. And
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: I feel that COVID has been this amazing line in
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: history of a lot of people saying it's now or
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: never to make the changes we need to make. And
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: I got to tell you, like I'm involved with a
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: lot of those changes. Like really looking at how this
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: white CEO of a very white company in a very
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: white town is working at anti block racism, Like okay, well,
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: how does that relate to your market? Well, we got
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: to figure it out. You know, like ten years ago
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: we wouldn't be talking like that, but we are now,
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: I say, the business community, which is really exciting. I
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: feel like in markets like in our market, Atlantic Canada,
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: where the union isn't that strong. It's strong in Nova Scotia,
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: but not here. The union wants to grow, right I
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: actually wants to grow. And so there's a little bit
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: of influence in the non centralized markets to say, hey,
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: happy to join the union, but what what what's the
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: true repercussions of call and shout out? You know, like
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: I think there's an opportunity right now to be bold
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: and if the union is doing what the union is
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: supposed to do, you're waiting for your you're up next.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: So theoretically you shouldn't be losing your opportunity because you are,
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: you know, following protocol because as we know, there's always
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: a union rep on site. The problem is what if
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: that union rep is the bully? Very possible, right, So anyway,
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: my my sign of hope is as you join. If
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: you're joining the union, I think it's really your opportunity
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: to become a leader yourself within it and and letting
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: other crew members, understand your perspective of wanting to be
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: treated fairly and with that's it, and you'll work your
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: ass off to do it. So that's one thing. Another
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: thing which is my approach, and this only works for
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: people who've got the uh, you know, the ability to
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: start their own businesses and I make their own thing.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: But I feel like what I did was I created
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: a new company called Hemming's House and we do TV shows,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: documentaries and a lot of commercial, brand brand film work too.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: And I've created a set culture, a filmmaking culture that's
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: that you can thrive and be safe. And we've had
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: a few mishaps and we dealt with it appropriately, and
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: we've we've changed the culture of of this this this
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: world here. So if you're starting out okay, and you
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: think the only way to get in is by joining
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: the union, getting on the big future sets, why not
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: consider finding another company that's small like ours, right, really
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: learning your trade really well in a good culture, small company.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: And sure it's not you're not working with the big
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: actors and the big producers and all this sort of thing,
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: but you're cutting your teeth in the process, and you're
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: understanding how people should be treated now it takes time
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: to do that, of course, but consider going into smaller
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: areas to really get your first your first uh, because
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: if you think that that bullshit culture is the way
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: it should be, because your first experience in is like, oh,
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: this must be the way it is, okay, And if
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: you accept that, you will also probably adopt it unless
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: you're a rebel, uh, you know, and even if you're
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: a really good person, respectful yourself, you're gonna adopt it
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: and you're not gonna call it out when your colleagues
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: do it to other people because it's but it's the
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: status quote. But why we're creative people. We shouldn't be
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't be living with the status quote. We need
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: to be pushing it. And you know what sad to
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: say for some people, that old way of doing it
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: is become archaic and unrelevant. So give the industry ten
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: more years those old you know, I'm going to generalize here,
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: the old guys that are whipping c stands and and
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: abusing other people in the culture. If you are like that, now,
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: you just wait until the till the younger producers are
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: growing up that are have been you know, brought up
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: in a world where we are discussing ways to be
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: respectful on set and in business, you're not going to
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: get hired, you know, it's just And then once the
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: union bosses become the ones who are have a little
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: bit more conscience and understand how sets need to be.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: And you know, I think the union, I think about it.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: I actually because I was a union I was in,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: it has the opportunity to actually lead the change. I
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: don't know how long that would take. It's a big beast, right,
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: but the union could be the solution if enough people
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: had the nerve to chip away at it, you know.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: So anyway, those are a couple of my my ideas.
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: And by the way, not all film sets and and
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: experiences are are awful. Like there's no absolutely respectful sets.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: I just personally, it was on a lot of buh
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: B films, a lot.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Of lower budget No, the lower the budget a lot
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: of time, the lower the budget, the less professionalism there is,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: and the and the less and and the less experience
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: there is. And there's a lot more ego involved and
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: a lot more in security involved and all of that stuff.
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: Climbers got the climbers who will climb at any right,
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, so got to be aware of that,
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: and that's why I guess that's my advice. And the
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: other thing is to not take it personally, you know,
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: uh must but do something.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I agree with the person because you're you're your
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: key grip told you your piece of drunk. You know.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: That's yeah, I know.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: And I think that with with what's going on, what's
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: got root and what happened with Harvey Weinstein, if these
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: kind of you know, juggernauts in our industry can be
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: taken out, there's hope for the rest, for the rest
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: of the people. Go wait a minute, there is opportunity
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: here to get for change. There is opportunity that people
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: are gonna take me seriously if something happens, because I mean, look,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: you're talking about Oscar winning massive guys worth billions, like
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Who've generated billions of dollars for the industry, and all
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, just you're gone, like Scott Ruden is gone,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Brett Ratner gone, Brian Singer gone, Kevin Spacey gone, They're gone,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: And there was a you know, I remember, I remember
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: when I was running when I wrote my first book,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Shooting for the Mob, which is my experience of the
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: ultimate abuse, which is an ultimate of physical not sexual,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: but physical abuse and psychological abuse. I think in my
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: world at least of a mobster threatening me on a
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: daily basis while I'm chasing my dream and meeting all
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: these big high profile directors and that and producers and
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: actors and stuff like that. Going through that journey. I
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: heard about the stories when Me Too happened.
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: This was really funny.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: When Me Too happened, my buddies would call me up
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: in the industry, like, who do you think is gonna happen?
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: Who do you think is going to happen to next?
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: And I go, oh, it's gonna be Brett Ratner, It's
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: going to be Brian Singer, It's going to.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: Be Kevin Spacey.
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: And they're like, how do you know.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: I'm like, on two thousand and one, I'll tell you
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: the stories. So when I was running around in two
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: thousand and one, I remember we were going to meet
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: with Kevin Spacey's people and in Kevin Spacey and this
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: is like literally I was meeting all the big stars
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: in town at twenty six, working with this mobster and
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: making this movie about his life. So it's screat By
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: the way, anyone who hasn't read that story, please I will.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: It's a fascinating and listen to the audiobook. It's even
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: better because it's me doing voices and it's hilarious. So
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: I go the agent at the time, agent or manager
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: or representative of some sort. They go, listen, when you
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: meet Kevin, understand that he just likes to grab guys
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: balls when they first meet him.
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: It's a handhe.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show. What And I was like,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: I was twenty six, I'd already been in the business
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: a while, I've been directing a bit already, and I
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: was just like, I was like, is this real?
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: And it's not like Kevin was in the other room.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: This is like we were setting up the meeting and
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: my mobster guys, if that guy grabs my balls, I'm.
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: Going to kill him. And that was the end of
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: the meeting.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: And that was the end of the potential of working
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: with Kevin Spacey. But then we heard stories about Brian Singer.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: I've heard many stories about Brett Ratner. He's legendary in
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: that sense. So I saw all of this coming and
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: and then I'd call it like five days later and
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: like they got Kevin Spacey, like, how'd you know? I'm like, dude, dude,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: It's just And the funny thing is that everybody in
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: the business knows. Everyone knew that Harvey win Stein was
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: a bully. Many people in the business knew that he
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: was doing what he was doing. A lot of people
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: knew what Scott Ruden is and who he was and
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: how he did business. And there's a lot of other
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: producers and directors out there who are are are shaking
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: in their boots because like, oh man, I'm screwed.
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know who Joe Picka is, right, yep.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Everybody, even me, the puny pa in Miami, heard about
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Pika stories. Joe Pitka was one of the most successful
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if he's still doing it or not,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: but was one of the most successful commercial.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: Directors in history.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: He directed space Jam the movie because he did all
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Michael Jordan thinks he was the Nike stuff. He was
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: a huge director, but his stories were legendary of the
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: abuse that he would put his cast the agency. He
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: would break people's arms playing basketball because he was a
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: really big, like six foot four, you know, imposing figure, and.
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: I would hear, you would hear.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: And that's like the that was like the Boogeyman on
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: some of these commercial sets.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: Like Joe Pitka's Gonna Get You. It was like, you
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: work with JR.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Picka, and like the group was like, yeah, I work
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: with Joe Picka. He had me running, He had me
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: running in the desert.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: I almost died of thirst.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: I'm like Jesus Christ, how did this man do it?
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: But that was the business. That was the way things
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: were done.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: So consider a considerable world, in a world where water.
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: Is wet and ice is cold.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not speaking to try to sound like I'm any
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: more woke than anybody else, but consider a world where
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: movie sets are more so run by women and people
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: of color. Let's just consider that for a second. And
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: trust me, there's lots of bullies in those two communities
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: as well. There is, I'm I'm not pretending there isn't,
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: but breaking that paradigm, that that that power shift. In
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: typical cases, women run projects differently, you know, absolutely, And
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: like he's thinking about the oscars now, finally starting to
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: give the nods to the you know, at least they're
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: coming to the table right, And are we going to
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: see that every year more and more and more women
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: and people of color starting to rock the scene. And
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: what's going to happen to all these these these luddites
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: if you will like there, if they're all driven by ego,
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: it's going to crush them to know they're not going
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: to be relevant anymore. We think about that whole cancel
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: culture thing, but it probably sucks to be Kevin's spacey
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: to be canceled. You are no longer relevant in our
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: pop culture. Thank You're done about it, You're done. So
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: I just I'm excited to see more diversity in our space.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: You know, coming from a very very white guy right here,
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: but it excites me to know how the seismic shift
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: that we will be able to see in all forms
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: of this industry, as you know, as the old way
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: starts to be hospiced out.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the funny thing is, thinking back on my
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: commercial sets, I almost exclusively used women producers and it
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: was weird. I didn't even think about that, But I've
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: always been just drawn to women producers. I just like
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: the way that they not that there's I've had men
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: producers as well, obviously, but I did a majority of
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: my commercial work were I always worked with the same
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: women producers because they ran sets differently. It was a
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: different energy about them, and I just I just identified
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: with that kind of energy a lot more, uh sometimes,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: and I've kind I've had wonderful experiences with you know,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: white white men producers and African American producers and Latino producers.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: But you're bringing people to the table. That's the thing.
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: It's not about canceling white white male talent.
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: It's no, of course not.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: It's like, let's let's let's have it much more round it.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: My company, we've got uh, most of our producers are
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: are are women. I'm going through uh some diversity training
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: right now as we speak, uh with that really cool
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: company out of California called Hella uh Impact, and uh
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: they're going through this Jedi training, which sounds so cool.
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: Well as I SEEO behind you, Jedi for justice, equity,
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: diversity and inclusion in the in the context of leading business,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: you know, and we talk about this at the beginning,
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: and it's just really cool to uh, you know, to
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: be able to check our our you know, check my
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: white privilege if you will, on the back on the
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: back burner, for a second and realize that we've been
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: successful as a result of incredibly in just systems, including
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: racist systems. And uh, I'm learning all this stuff, you know,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: and which means I'm really really excited to now that
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: we do have over gender parody. Like at my company,
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: there's more women than men, but most of the crews guys.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: And I'm really excited to start getting more women into
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: the training system in the crew side and the camera departments, grips,
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: et cetera. And also people of color as we as
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: we as we diversify and and really hack the system
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: and see and prove that we can actually build a
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: great storytelling company. Uh that's in the mold of what
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: you and I have been complaining about for the last hour.
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I've you know, anytime I have a chance
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: to have a female director on to to talk about
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: their process and what they've gone through. I had a
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: wonderful author and female director named Naomi Jones McDougall Jones,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: who wrote a book all about women in Hollywood. Wrote
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: the book about how they are treated, the numbers, the stats,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: who's it was fascinating conversation. But you know, and again
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: everyone listening it's not about cancel culture. It's not about
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: you know, just throwing people away. It's about trying to
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: open open up the idea, the the inclusion of everybody's ideas.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: You know, the white male or the male story perspective
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: is not the only one, uh, and bringing all of
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: those kind of people to the table, it just makes
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: it's it's like only cooking with pepper and salt, and
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: that's all you cook with.
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: There's so many other.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Spices and there's any other spices that you could throw
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: in that make it a lot more flavorful and a
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: lot better in so many ways. But you know, we
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: started this conversation as what can we do to change
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: this abuse culture that is ingrained in our business has
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: been for decades. I think it started that way. Yeah,
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: I'm sure was that way from the days of Chaplain.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: You know, when anytime you have people in power, there's
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: always abuse, always any place, any place, any the industry,
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: any society. If you have somebody in power and someone
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: that's not in power, there is always abuse.
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: Unfortunately, that as part of the human condition, that is
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: part of it is.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: But now we're hopefully changing that at least within our
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: sets and Hopefully you guys listening now, especially if you're
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: young and coming up, understand that there are options and
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: you have opportunities. And I think you would agree they
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: have kids coming up today have opportunities that you and
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: I did not have, like being able to buy your
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: own gear, being able to start your ownroduction comp at
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: twenty one and just start shooting music videos or shooting docs,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: or just going out there and making content or building
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: up online presence, like none of that existed for us.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: We had to go through this system and navigate it.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: There are options now for people like yourself, like you're like,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: you know what, I'm gonna screw it. I'm going to
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: make my own company, and you can do it, and
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: you could do it anywhere in the world that you're
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: listening from.
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: So I appreciate you coming on the show.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Brother. I'm going to ask you a couple questions. I
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: ask all of my guests, what advice would you give
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: a filmmaker trying to break into the business today.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: I love that question because I get that question all
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: the time your parents. It's funny because in this generation
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: of kids, it's never the kids call it call it
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: it's sometimes it is and I okay, there's a piece
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: of advice right there. Don't get your parents to call
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: us to say, hey, what's up. Like in the film industry,
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: is it's something that my kid can thrive and they
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: want to make a movie. If you're twelve years old
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: or eighteen years old, find a way to get in
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: touch with a producer or anybody in the place that
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: you want to be and just get some time on
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: the phone. Most people will be thrilled to speak to you,
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: and you can do it yourself. Like you don't listen.
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: Nothing against having your parents lobby for you, but I
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: think it's a thing. It's almost it's very much an
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: eye roller. We want to see initiative, you know, we
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: want to see creativity, We want to see a personality, right,
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: we want to see respect. Because when you're jumping into
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: the into the film industry, certainly the way Alex and
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: I have, you're not necessarily being hired for your creative brilliance.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: You're being hired because you can be a really trustworthy,
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: reliable cog and wheel.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: And you can very nice.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: By the way, that's a very nice, very nice way
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: of saying that cog in the wheel that there's other
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: ways that could be mule, donkey, heavy lifters, you know, grunt,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: but the cog and the wheel.
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: There's other names that are I'm not going to writ
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: because we're done with that culture.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: If you are if you can work on a farm,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: you can work on a film set. You know. You
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: if you can work, if you can join cadets and
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: and go, you know, work in the military, you can
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: work on a film set. If you work in a
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: janitorial uh, at a you know, at a hospital, you
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: can work on a film set. Yeah. And so it's
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: not about the creative brilliants and producers, aren't They don't
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: really care if about your last short film. Uh, they do.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: They want to make sure that you're reliable and that
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: you're that you're going to be good for the culture.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: And perhaps that's the hack to get in, you know,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: the hack is, you know, we're living in a new
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: generation where there are we're now becoming the old guys now, Alex,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: I hate to say it, where I'm learning so much
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: about this new generation my employees and my staff or whatever,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: you know, from young people, and I appreciate learning from
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: them because my ego was kicked out of me years ago. Right,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: So I'm a lifelong learner and culture changes, you know,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: And I'm supposedly making documentaries and films that an audience
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: wants to see, and I don't understand them at all
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: because I decided not to care about their language and
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: the way they want to be respected and all this
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: sort of thing. So many people make fun of millennials
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: and you know, in the next generation, and but you know,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: that's the audience. What are you doing not trying to
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: understand their culture or the way they speak and the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: way they want to be spoken to. So you, as
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: a young person can actually come in and find those
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: right bosses if you will and say this, I want
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: to help you create a culture that is rich, creative, efficient,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: and lean and in a way that's more people like
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: me are going to want to come and work for
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: your company or work on your sets. And I'm speaking
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: in the context of out of the Union, because the
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: Union has its own system which is very efficient as well.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: You come into a trainee and then you work your
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: way up. Awesome. So if that's if that's what you're
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: gonna do, I would say the exact same advice. Find
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: someone else's in the union who's been in it for
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: a number of years and pick their brain. You know,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. And
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: if you're ready, it's be prepared to volunteer a little bit.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: It might not have to be the case, but if
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: you're working with smaller companies or even like part of
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: a film co op or you know, a short film competition,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: you don't get paid on those, but you get great experience.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: So the more experience you get in film culture as
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: far as the mechanism of how it set culture, yeah,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: and set etiquette. And when I was some of my
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: early films, I used to stand in front of the
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: light and I was the cameras training and I'd stand
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: up and I'd be like, hey, guys, you need a lens.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: And so they'd call me a flyboy or something because
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: I was like a fly tractor little light all the time.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: Those are things that you learned, said etiquette. Right, if
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: someone doesn't tell you, you learned the hard way right.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: Right, and hopefully it's not an abusive way.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: It's hopefully in a fun way, like calling you.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: Fly boy, right and exactly that like talking to people.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: I don't call myself a veteran in that world because
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: I only spent a few years in it, but speak
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: to veterans and say, hey, what are some of the
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: areas I will fail at in my first year? You know,
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: that's a good advice. That's good advice to ask, you know,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: and people will like you for that, like if you
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: asked a key grip, Hey, I want to get into
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: grip in the grip department, But where will I fail?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: And then let me know like some of the hacks
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: so I can get around that. And then they're going
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: to love the fact that you showed an initiative you
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: and ask the question in the first place. Right, long
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: answer for you, Alex.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: But fair enough, good answer, great answer, great answer. Now,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: whether in the film business or in life?
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh so many. One is just really important. Again,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: I'm coming talking right now from the entrepreneur perspective, is
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: surrounding yourself by people who are better than you. So
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: and this is a really good lesson for directors, for
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: aspiring directors and producers. But it's okay if you're a
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: director and for you to hire a first a a
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: d who is way more experienced than you, and it's
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: okay if you have to be the you know, the
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: key of a Caaron apartment and you and you're hiring
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: other people on your team who are actually way better
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: DPS than you. The more people you surround, the more
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: you surround yourself with people who are better than you,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: and the and the less ego you've got, less pride,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: the more you're gonna learn, and the and and the
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: quicker you're you're gonna thrive if you if you do
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: this on your own and try to hack your way
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: through being the best on earth, a good chances can fail.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: So I've surrounded myself by way better filmmakers in my company,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: way better dps, way better editors. And I remember when
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: it happened, like I was the filmmaker at the beginning
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: of the building this company for a good four or
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: five years, and then once I realized that my crew
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: were becoming because they were doing it all the time
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: I was trying to grow a business, and I was like, geez,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: you guys are there now, like you guys are now
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: the products you know, and I know it was trippy
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: for a minute, and I was like, okay, well and
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: a good advice one of my young employees told me.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: I thought was great. He goes, Greg, You're always going
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: to be a great creative director, a great filmmaker. But
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: what this, this is my my employee is saying this
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: to me. What we need from you is to go
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: out and do what you're doing, what you're best at,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: which is making friends and selling us more jobs. And
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: hearing that was really it was tough on my ego,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: but he was right because if we wanted to continue
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: grow in this company and doing cool projects, we need
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: an executive producer that was going to go go fishing.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: And that's and executive producers go fishing for money by
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: curing solid relationships, trusted relationships. So my job at my
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: business is to create trusted relationships. And that's that's what
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: I do every single day.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: And last question, three of your favorite.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: Films of all time?
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: Sweet Hereafter?
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that movie.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good a beautiful Canadian film and the
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: soundtrack was great. It was so good. I would say
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: I have to say fire walk with me. David Lynch Wow,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: a huge Twin Peaks fan. During during you know those
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: times and let me see here. It's always a tough
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: I absolutely loved Eternal Sunshine. I love Virgin Suicides. So
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: I'm failing on answering because there's so many great films
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: I love. But I gotta give you one more David
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: Lynch film, which is Elephant Man. Yeah it struck me,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: it really did, because Linch is just weird. Usually this
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: is not a weird film. This is a sad, heartfelt,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: emotional film. And if you haven't seen Elephant Man, you
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: got to see it. And yeah, so I going to
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: give you those four or five films as kind of
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: my inspirations, and each one of them have a reason
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: why I absolutely love them.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, very cool, Greg Man, thank you so much
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: for coming on the show and helping us shed a
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: little light on a problem that needs to be discussed.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: It's not generally discussed in public very often.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: James that and you're doing a great yourself.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: I'm trying, my friend, I'm trying, So thanks again, my friend.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: All right, Alex tears Man, thanks.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Greg for coming on the show
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: and really shining a light on this problem that is abuse,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: verbal abuse and people being taken advantage of on sets
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: in productions and in this business in general. So Greg,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: thank you, thank you so much for that. If you
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: want to get links to anything we spoke about in
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash four thirteen. Thank you so
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: much for listening to guys. As always, keep on writing
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: dot tv.