Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #240: The Incentive Gap: Why Washington is Like a Dysfunctional Farm

Transcript

Episode #240: The Incentive Gap: Why Washington is Like a Dysfunctional Farm · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: So here's the brainstorm.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't it be cool if somebody would just have a national shutdown?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican, the system's rigged.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'll never forget it.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: In his monologue, he said the reason we need to keep farmers farming is because farm kids make the best soldiers.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Beyond Labels Podcast with Joel Salatin.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: That would be me, the farmer, and our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Cena McCullough.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna go in a little bit of a philosophical direction today and hope that you'll uh hope you'll enjoy this bit of a change.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh jumping off of a current event, which is the government shutdown.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we've had a bunch of these in the last four or five years, and this one's been serious, especially with the um all the airport, you know, personnel and and the heavy partisanship around it.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it has led Cena and I to want to explore a little bit this whole idea that we are moving into a time where there seems to be an absence of personal consequences um to make decisions.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little different issue than the inability to make decisions.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I've kind of coined the phrase decision deficit disorder for people who who seem to be unable to make decisions, but um but we also have this absence of personal consequences to decisions, and we see that in lots of areas of lives where the people who are actually making the decisions for the culture don't have to um don't have to go through the consequences of their decisions.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so you get this you get this um disconnect between the authority and the people under that authority.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um that's not a good place for a culture to go.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so, Cena, I'll flip it over to you to kind of frame this a little more, and we'll we're gonna we're gonna banter a little bit back and forth.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't think this will take the whole podcast, but we do want to dig into this a little bit, this whole personal consequence and authority kind of question.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Zina?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you can probably hear in my voice a little bit of road weariness, right?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because so I was scheduled to fly to Ohio for a speaking gig uh last week, but we're on day 40 or somewhere around there of the partial shutdown of the Department of Homeland Security.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So between um TSA callouts, you know, and canceled and delayed flights, massive security lines at the Atlanta airport, the air travel system just became too unpredictable under this government shutdown.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the immediate consequence for me was instead of this two-hour flight, I just returned home from a 14-hour drive across several states.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um in all total, 28 hours of driving, right?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so when the system breaks down, it's customers that pay the price.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for me, time, gas, um, it's real people working at the TSA that don't get paid.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: But management in DC seems to be just cruising along, like just fine.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they still get paid, even though they're the ones that cast the vote that takes away the pay of other workers.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And just um, I believe it was this just this past Sunday for us um recording this podcast today, Senator John Kennedy, who was from Louisiana, Republican, he tried to introduce uh somewhat of his own remedy for this situation.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So he brought a resolution to the floor that would essentially put the senator's paycheck into a vault, escrowing their paychecks for as long as the government remains shut down.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And he said that it was um it was all about shared sacrifice.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: He said, quote, it's about in some small way sharing the pain of our TSA and other workers at DHS who are not being paid because Democrats shut down the department.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So he proposed that the paychecks would be held in a vault until the shutdown ended.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the goal was to create a personal financial incentive for the lawmakers to reach um a budget agreement quickly.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So what happened was uh Brian Um Schatz, a Democrat, objected and he left the floor without explanation.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so we don't know why he left it.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know if this is just a political stunt on both sides of the aisle, you know.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um Joel, I don't know if I ever shared that story with you, but anytime I, you know, so we are beyond labels here, right?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't look at the Republican or the Democrat as like, oh, that's my side, or that's the other side.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how I think whatsoever.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just a truth seeker and a constitutionalist.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I learned pretty early on when I started to get involved with politics about how the system really works.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I was um, you know, I went to a lot of political meetings, uh, round tables of people high up, and they were actually trying to groom me to run for political office.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to shadow one of our congress congressmen.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the most disheartening thing that I had ever experienced one of the most disheartening things I'd ever experienced because he went into the into that position in Congress, you know, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: He was, you know, uh more of a libertarian constitutionalist.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: He thought that he was gonna get in there and really be able to make change.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you I saw him decline year after year, and the system just beat him down.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he gained weight, he looked sick, he was inflamed, he didn't have spunk at the town halls anymore.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And literally, I mean, he said to me, it doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or a Republican, the system's rigged.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they would come out and put on a show.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the Democrats and the Republicans would be fighting against each other in when the cameras were on, and behind closed doors, they'd be having beers together.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they it was just a big um show.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when things like this happen, I'm I'm wondering, is this part of the show that's going on?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: But either way, it's keeping people kind of entertained by the circus of what's happening right in front of them instead of really thinking about how this is, you know, what's the deeper implication here, you know, and and really looking at how our country's run.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um you know, yeah, go ahead.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, go ahead.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so that's that's uh I don't think you've ever shared that story with me.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's so um that made you not want to run for office, is that right?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well Teresa and I were always saying how how does an honest person do this?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's kind of our you know, um if you're truly an authentic, honest person, the the system, the system does not it's not inviting to an authentic, honest person.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean I saw firsthand, like I said, how it it beat him down.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um he looked so sick and dejected, you know, by the end.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he just wanted out.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted out.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like the party wanted him to run again, and he begrudgingly ran again and lost because everyone can tell he didn't he wasn't in it, his heart wasn't in it, he could care less.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I have found that you know, you might have a handful of honest people out there, but even the ones that I was supporting and was trusting, they they tend to all have to compromise on something.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean even Rand Paul has compromised on on something, you know.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I decided I saw a lot of that, you know, you gotta get they they kind of pull the curtain open and you get to see behind that curtain.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know, I'm not gonna be able to make the change that I would like to see, and my family is gonna be dragged through the mud.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, I'm gonna end up sick again, like like he is.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So um, that's really when I decided too that really the only solution is the market.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's the people, you know, because it's so corrupt.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: The system, once you start getting these behind-the-scene glimpses, and Lisa Stokey was on the program as well, showing us a little bit, like pulling back that curtain a little bit for us to see.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we've we've talked about a lot of the out the door.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and and and bless her heart, think about the things that she didn't share with us.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, every time we got anywhere close to a real a real capsule of of information, oh, I I can't talk about that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: I can't talk about that, you know.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and oh, well, you don't know.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: After that show that we recorded, I actually called her and I said, Hey, can I record you again?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel comfortable giving a few details?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I actually recorded another hour with her and she shared more stories um that we put on that show.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, but even then, like, you know, there's the whole you can't say the specific name, you know, because they will come after you.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even people who we think are on our side who are out there saying that they're trying to help, you know, give give us clean food, clean water, clean soil, you know, um, there's there's a motive.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and so that's why this episode is really about what is the incentive, what is the motive?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and even like in the system, in in the government system, in industry, even in the food activist groups, the activists themselves, the social media influencers, you really have to think about what is their incentive.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and for me, if back then, when they wanted me to run, and I was getting a glimpse of all of this, I realized the incentive wasn't pure on anybody.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Even the people who wanted me to run, the incentive wasn't pure, and I could tell that they were gonna try to control me, just like it looks like Kennedy's being controlled in some ways now.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, it it it's it's a lot like uh like courtrooms today.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I mean, John Grisham, I you know, uh, I mean, he writes these books, but he's exactly dead on if you've been in a courtroom.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he said, you know, it's not about it's not about truth, it's not about fairness and justice, it's all about winning.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: It has nothing to do with fairness and justice.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, and and when you when you do get a glimpse, I mean, I've had a couple of glimpses.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: One one was uh I got invited back when um um Terry McAuliffe, Governor Terry McAuliffe was running for governor of Virginia, he convened a group of AG folks, about 15 of us, uh, down to Richmond to have a little summit and uh invited me, and I was obvious, I was, you know, appreciative, grateful to be invited in such a, as John Wayne would say, such an ostentious group.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so I went down there and um was with these people, and of course, you know, see and I'm an old I'm an old journalist, you know, so I I take notes.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: I took my laptop and sat there through the meeting, you know, uh taking notes.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um nobody else was taking notes.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody said that there was a prohibition on notes.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody said there was nobody said it was a secret meeting.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: They just said, Would you come?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, about halfway through, he um McAuliffe um said, I've got a big surprise for you.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean he was bringing this like he was gonna bring the you know the Queen of Sheba.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And um the door opened and in walked Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vil Vilsack.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's you know, that's a pretty big name.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah to to bring a secret secretary of ag to a little group of farmers in you know Richmond.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and so um Tom Vilsack came in and he proceeded to give us about a 10-minute little you know monologue.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it I'll never forget it.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: In his monologue, he said, the reason we need to keep the reason we need to keep farmers farming is because farm kids make the best soldiers.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And when I left the meeting, I I reported on it.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I uh blogged about it.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: And uh McAuliffe's people called me and I mean did everything but threaten me with death.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, if you ever have any problem, you'll never get any help from us.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: That was a secret meeting, and you I mean, just went crazy over it.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um But you know, when you when you look at, I mean, your question of what is the ultimate incentive here, think about that.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: The Secretary of Agriculture walks in a room of farmers and says the reason, the main reason we need to keep American farmers viable is because their families have kids that make good soldiers for the military.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: What does that do?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I it's demoralizing.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it is.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's un it's unbelievable, unbelievable.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: The other story that I'll share is um is I was um asked by one of our um general General Assembly delegates years ago, who was a small farmer, and um he he had raised a couple uh steers on his property, and he was gonna eat one and sell one.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And he found out how difficult it was to get um to get into a slaughterhouse, how far a slaughterhouse was away, how many regulations there were, and just this whole rigmarole of trying to get trying to get a friend of you know, a steer, you know, uh a beef in in boxes.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And um so this sent him down, obviously sent him down a a rabbit hole looking for what why can't why can't why is it so difficult for a guy to be able to sell food to a neighbor?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it led him literally to the food freedom movement.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: This guy was a Democrat.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And uh next thing he, you know, next thing he's calling me, and um we became we became fast friends.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: He was a wonderful, wonderful uh fella, and he introduced a bill.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, it was a it was a Virginia cottage food bill that essentially said if two people are engaged in a transaction, it's none of the government's business.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, you know, if two consenting adults want to engage in a in a amicable voluntary food transaction, they shouldn't have to ask permission from a bureaucrat to engage in a food transaction.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I'm all over that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's man, that's my language, you know.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so he introduced the bill, started getting a little bit of traction, and he called me, he said, Would you come down and lobby with me for the day?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Go around the General Assembly building and press the flesh.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I had never been asked by an elected official.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I'd I'd done some, you know, lobbying and stuff for different issues over the past, done hearings and things like that, but I'd never had an elected politician view me as an asset.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm normally viewed as a liability.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so to have a true somebody who'd actually won an election look at me and say, I think you're an asset, uh, that in itself was quite a compliment, you know.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I'm like you, Cena.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't, he he could have been a Republican, Democrat, liberal.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't matter, you know, what his party was.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: We were we were talking about constitutionalism.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, I went down, spent the day with him in Richmond.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: It was, it was such so delightful.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was so different than going down with with with a with a non with a group that's lobbying for something, you know, where you don't have you don't have a delegate or a senator uh you know going with you.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and so here we were, the two of us, just the two of us.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: We spent the day uh with you know 10 to 15 minutes per, you know, per other uh delegate um pushing his bill.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we got done at the end of the day, and uh, of course he got a lot more um smiles from the fellow Democrats than from the Republicans, but but every everyone was was inordinately courteous to us because he was one of them, you know, as opposed to if I had been going by myself or or even with a with a non-affiliate, you know, with a with a group by ourselves.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: We got to the end of the day, we were both tired, and we went up to his office.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I said, his name was Albert, said Albert, you know.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: My only frustration of the day was I think if we'd have had 30 minutes instead of 20 instead of 10 minutes with every one of these people, I think we'd have beat, we'd have won every one of them, we'd have had every one of them come to our side.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: He looked at me just as matter-of-factly as possible.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: He says, Joel, that's not the way this building works.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: I said, How's this building work?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: So this building isn't about trying to solve problems.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: This building is about trying to figure out which side you're on as fast as possible so you can move on to the other issue.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there are so many bills coming through here that you you have you don't have time to even think about uh about actual solutions.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: You look at a bill and you and you look at the affiliations and whatever, people that helped, you know, helped you get elected.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: And am I for this and against it?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, no, and it goes on a pile.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, no, goes on a pile.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, no, goes on a pile.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Said this building, talking about the General Assembly building, this building has nothing to do with actually trying to solve problems.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: So there's my there's my there's my two stories that are identical to yours.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and it's it's it's extremely uh depressing, which is which is why we can't look to the government for solutions.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think one big reason why it got to this point that you and I are both describing uh is because there's an incentive gap, right?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: In DC, they tend to have uh all the protection and no skin in the game that like you would deal with every day on your farm, for example.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So to them, they're still getting paid while this government shutdown's happening, while these other workers are getting no money and people like me aren't gonna aren't able to get on the plane because the flights are getting canceled and delayed.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So because they don't have incentive, um, they're not motivated to resolve it quickly.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And seeing of the and seeing the same thing is true with all of the regulators underneath them.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm I'm thinking of when uh the times that we've had our battles with the food, I call it the food police.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it could be the health department, it could be the you know, safety inspection service, it could be, you know, Virginia Department of Agriculture Consumer Services.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's numerous agencies that we've had our battles with over the years, and these bureaucrats come in, they're knocking down a nice big paycheck.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: They've got health insurance, they've got, you know, three weeks of paid vacation, and they waltz into your place and and and and they have no they have no personal liability um with whether they with whatever they tell you, whether they say, I don't give you a permit, I give you a permit, I'll give you a permit if you spend another$200,000, uh, I'll withdraw your permit because you you let a fly get in your building.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's uh uh there's nothing.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's why um the the one time that we really, really, I think got to the heart of two bureaucrats, we had the had the Philadelphia Federal Um Food Safety Inspection Service Um guy here and the the head of uh food safety inspection for Virginia when they told us that um that we couldn't sell that we couldn't sell our beef um by by weight.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: If it was custom slaughtered by carcass weight.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And um I don't want to get into all the weeds of that, but but the long story short was that they were sitting in our living room, and I finally just looked at them and said, What would you do if you were in my shoes?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and and and I just shut up.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: And we had this long, you know, my attorney was here, our elected, our our delegates, uh legislative aide was here.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we had a couple other people in the room along with our kids, uh, who I'd introduced as the as the government agents came into the to the to the house.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, told the the our two kids and uh we had an apprentice at the time, uh, these gentlemen are here to show us how the government is helpful.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh put them a little bit on edge.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: And uh anyway, we went up and we sat and and so I said, Well, what would you do if you were in my shoes?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And they didn't have an answer.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I decided to just wait them out.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I waited a minute, two minutes, three minutes.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: It gets pretty awkward when you're sitting in, you know, looking at each other for you know three minutes in silence.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And finally, you know, one of them said, Well, I guess you could, I guess you could sell it live and then add shipping and handling uh based on the the the finished weight.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: I said, done.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: We're good.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's fine.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so we went to selling selling beef for a dollar a head, 50 cents a half, 25 cents a quarter, really cheap, but boy, that shipping and handling, I mean, it just ate you up.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and and so so that was one time when when I just decided I'm gonna I'm gonna put the shoe on your foot and let you feel the pain.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and and they and they stepped into it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: They stepped up to it.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I think I think I think that that kind of um I'm I'm trying to think right now quickly off the top of my head, I'll let you talk a little bit and I'll think of something um uh that that would that would be a similar way, you know, for the nation.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, i i would there be a way for the for the nation?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: So here's the brainstorm.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't it be cool if somebody would just have a national shutdown?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody goes to work today.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, nobody.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Janitors, electricians, utilities, nothing.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody goes to work today.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna shut the nation down, you know, uh, to let you guys sense how this is.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Just shut the whole thing down.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't that be fun?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's gonna stay in bed.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're all we're all gonna just stay in bed for the day.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, do we still get paid?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's okay.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: But can you imagine what that would do to the nation?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, nobody goes to work.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Think about it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody goes to work, there's no electric electricity goes off, nobody's there to run the gas station, nobody's there to drive the trucks, the interstates are empty.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm I'm laughing just thinking about it.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't that be everybody, everybody gets a day off?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're all gonna just get a day off, and we're not gonna do anything.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: No meat gets cut, no crops get planted, no, no, nobody goes to the hospital.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever dies, dies in the hospital.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, everybody just okay, you senators, you you know, you like this, you like this kind of country?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty cool.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see what you mean.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, kind of turning it, turning it back on them.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I was like, because what you were describing, I thought, well, we kind of already saw something similar during COVID when only the essential workers went to work.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the, you know what I mean?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: But you're talking about just everything.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying, I'm saying a blank, because that's what they're doing.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: They're trying to create, you know, a shutdown situation.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um we just we'll just we'll just play their game, you know.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I mean, I I'm obviously being theoretical because practically you can't nobody's gonna be going to actually do do that in the country.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: But but that's basically what I did to these inspectors sitting there.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I said, all right, put the ball in your court.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: What, you know, what would you do?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and and suddenly they had to step up to, well, you know, what what would you do?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that's a beautiful story be for multiple reasons, but one is because it shows you that if you point blank ask somebody for a solution, it may take them a little bit of time, but they came up with one.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: But the second part about that is it also shows you a little insight into how the system really operates because clearly those inspectors are not trained or prepared to provide solutions.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's more like a paperwork thing, like check this box, is this right, check this, you know what I mean?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that whole um, and they don't have the incentive to provide a solution.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're gonna do the job, they're gonna take the paycheck and go home, just like most people, you know.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it really comes back to that whole incentive.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And not only um this is a there's an interesting study I found that ties into what you're talking about.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it goes both ways.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the you're talking about the government workers and what's incentivizing them, and they don't have an incentive to help come up with solutions, but they could when you asked, you know, after thinking about it for a while.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a study that came out actually from the USDA, from their economic research research service um department.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was um a report that came out a while ago.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what they did was those researchers analyzed how we were able to reduce salmonella in our meat supply.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what they found was something that I think is fascinating: that two-thirds, about 66% of the reduction in salmonella levels in the meat supply did not come from uh government mandates and regulations.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: About two-thirds of the reduction in salmonella level was driven by the market incentives.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: It came from management-determined actions.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the owner was choosing to do things to make sure the seminella level was lower because they wanted to protect their own brand.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they were incentivized to protect their own brand, their own business.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: About um, the remaining about 33% of the lowering of seminella levels is attributed to this top-down government mandates and regulations, you know.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the conclusion is that the personal um initiative, the incentive of the individual was twice as effective as a government rule.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you apply that to like the rules of Congress, you know, where they would only get paid if they took personal initiative to solve the problem, then the tone in Washington would definitely change.
• 29:40
  unknown: You know?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, well, imagine just look, look, imagine, imagine if um when you start thinking about performance incentives, like a compensation package that honors performance and not just showing up because you're you're breathing today.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um imagine if if um the USDA budget was tied to um farm net profit.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: When net profit went up, um USDA employees got paid.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: When farm profit went down, they didn't get paid.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, in other words, I mean you can you can cut that however you want to.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh imagine if when um inflation goes up, um congressmen don't get paid.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: When inflation goes down, congressmen do get paid.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, you know, you could you could tie that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and actually, uh Cena, I I've I've had this idea forever.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um that wouldn't it be neat if when you pay your taxes, you could designate it to the agency of your choice?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there's so there's whatever, there's a dozen cabinet positions, right?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's the Department of Energy, Department of Health, Department of Uh Ur Housing, Urban Development, Department of Education, the USDA, um, the obviously the uh Department of War.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like that.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: I like Department of Defense better.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, um uh you got all these all these things.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't it be cool if everyone could designate their taxes to a particular um cabinet level agency so that if that agency is deemed worthy by the people, it gets a budget.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if that agency is deemed unworthy by the people, it doesn't get a budget.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's almost like a it's sounding more like a free market solution.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, absolutely.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a direct, it I mean i it's a direct um it's a direct I mean that's the kind of thing if I ever ran for office, that's the kind of thing that I would advance to actually to actually um to pull the the power of the of the purse, which is ultimately the power of market, to pull the market um insulation, to pull the market insulation away from the halls of power.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know how else you break the perversity that's in government authority unless you make a more direct connection to people's to people's desires.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean we we vote in these people, but they um they like you said, you know, they they have very little people still open the elevator for them, they've still got their parking spot, you know.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they still have their donors.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they've got special special treatment.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And they're they're insulated, they're insulated from the con and the fastest way to destroy decision-making integrity in anybody is to divorce the person from the consequences of their decision.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you see this in the medical field as well, right there.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh boy.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the doctors, what is their real incentive to help you heal from a disease?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, it's incentivized the opposite.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: The system is in is incentivizes them to keep you sick, you know, from the doctor's perspective, the insurance company's perspective, the drug companies' perspective, and even the government, because they you know hold patents and stuff.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, um, and they get money um, you know, from other uh uh they get money other ways as well, like user fees and things like that.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the it just incentivizes the opposite, incentivizes uh, you know, sick care, like you've called it in the past.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well look look at the look at uh going you you can go anywhere.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Look at the incentives in the public schools to to mess up kids.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: So now you got more remedial education.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: You've got this program, that program, and the other, you know, to be able to um uh to remediate.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, compare that, compare the the bureaucratic expansion in yeah, in in healthcare, in public schools, whatever, compare that to when Elon Musk bought um Twitter and he went in and he got rid of like what you know what, 90% of the people?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um and it didn't go out of business amazingly.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: It started making money.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: And um, in fact, you know, recently I've seen several pretty big articles in Wall Street Journal about the the top heaviness, the top heaviness of virtually every business in the country.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the COVID trillion the trillion dollar uh COVID program flushed the economy with all this money, so people went on a hiring spree because people were spending all this money, and now suddenly that has all stopped.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're seeing, you know, um uh whatever, uh FedEx is laying off 30,000.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, just it seems like every day there's another great big company that's that's getting rid of not 500, but you know, 20 and 30,000 people, uh because great big companies move into this same area too, where you know top management doesn't feel the effects of their you know of their decisions or or the or the decisions the decisions are so spread out there just not a direct correlation.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's the beauty of you know we move our cows every day, every day, every day the cows tell us whether they're happy or not.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Every single day, if we make a mistake, the feedback loop is in 24 hours every single time.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: That creates incredible um whatever, you know, connection to the to the consequences of the decision.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so, so you you tend to make really, really you start making really, really good decisions because you don't want unhappy cows.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I and that's exactly why in DC we don't see this like management drive, because they like their paycheck is not at risk, you know.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't actually have to feel the consequences of their actions.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even kids, if you think about it, how do you get them to really care about something?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: They have to understand that there's a consequence of their action.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you incentivize them?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: They have to have incentives too.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, like my kids won't just study any subject, for example.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: If if they don't see the value of it or they don't have some kind of incentive to do it, they're not gonna do it.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like most of us, most of us don't go to work in an office because we love to go sit in an office and work for somebody else.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're incentivized by the paycheck.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, in the food supply, um, we see this bear out as well with market premiums.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: So uh if if if a company gets, let's say, like a non-GMO or an organic certification, while it's more paperwork, you know, and cost up front, the market tends to reward them with a higher price point for their product and actually increased sales.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a a carrot, uh, you know, a carrot model.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it incentivizes.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So having, you know, particularly like the non-GMO, the third-party labels and stuff, having those available in the marketplace actually incentivizes companies to strive for them.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a study, there are many studies that have been done on this, but there was one more recently where it was tracking sales of non-GMO products, and they tracked them over like 104 weeks, I believe.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Across the board, if that product had the non-GMO project's butterfly uh seal on it, it gave the largest boost to sales growth.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, it looked at frozen and fresh, uh frozen, frozen and refrigerated meat, poultry, and seafood products.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: If those products carried the butterfly seal from the non-GMO project, they saw a 52% sales growth.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: If the product just said non-GMO, but it didn't, it wasn't certified, it still saw 40% growth compared to the same products in those categories that had no labels of non-GMO at all, those only grew 22%.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, in essence, what you had is compared to the regular products in that market, if your product had that non-GMO butterfly label on it, you had a 30% increase in sale in that same time period.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the market is incentivized, for example, to go through the work to get that seal because they know that consumers respond to it.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, it also showed that if you paired that non-GMO project seal with the USDA organic certification seal, then you had a 20% growth over two years.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and those are two of the, those are two of the labels that I pair, you know, when I'm looking in the grocery store.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: So literally the companies are incentivized to level up their products, right?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: To give them, get them approved by these um third-party organizations like the Nangy Mail Project, or to slap that organic label on it.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the people are also being incentivized to buy those products.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a really cool thing.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it shows that like some of this research is showing that when you have these independent labels like the butterfly or the detox projects, glyphosate residue-free label, it mobilizes more consumers than a mandatory GMO labeling from the government.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think is the secret sauce, the secret sauce that's not hasn't been mentioned yet is trust.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Trust is what makes that work.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: And uh in fact, uh just this week, uh Cena, we had our our big spring team, team uh rally, you know, uh everybody comes and we have you know heavy hors d'oeuvres and all the new people get to meet all the old people, the old people get to meet the new people.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody gets to say, you know, here's my responsibility within the you know polyface organization.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh, you know, we're not we're not a huge company, but you know, we're we're we're 30 people that are you know pretty um gung-ho, and uh not every and and we don't we don't see each other every day.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people work from home or you know, work in a warehouse or someplace else.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, anyway, my my you know um uh rah-rah rah, let's go get them 2026 message to everybody was the one thing that we can offer people that they can't get anywhere uh very that they very seldom find anywhere else is we can give people trust.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: People trust us.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, part of that's our transparency, it's our I mean, it's our whole ball of wax.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: But my point is how many people trust Congress right now?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: How many people trust you know the the Senate?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: How many people trust the government?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: Not very many.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, in fact, so you got pulling out something.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um that in fact the latest survey I saw said that um even the even American, even uh doctors, your personal doctor is only trusted by 22% of Americans.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: So even doctors are at the 22% level.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that that's almost a a societal um catastrophe.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is that an all-time low?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would imagine that must be all-time low.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, be pre-COVID, it was about 66.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that's a dramatic.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it dropped, it dropped over 40 points just from COVID.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, the 22% number is interesting because I had just read that about 17% of Americans now say they trust the government in Washington to do what's right.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: So only 17% is a surprisingly similar number.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: So um if you break that down further, 15% of them said they trust the government in Washington to do what's right most of the time.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And only 2% said they trust the government in Washington to do what's right just about always.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: So only 2% trust them about always, and 15% trust them most of the time for a total of only 17% of Americans now trusting the government.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been in that camp, so I'm on the other side of that.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, see, you know, Cena, I I wanna, I wanna find, I wanna find somebody in that 2%.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I would love to find somebody in that 2% and have a conversation with them.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Not a debate, but wouldn't it be fun to find one of those people that says the government gets it right just about always?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't it be fun to just have a um have a conversation with them of, you know, uh what who do they admire?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh who's their uh, you know, what do they watch on YouTube?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: What do they what do they do for entertainment?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: What do they read?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um what what's their what's their life like?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've I've often thought that because you know, in in my in my second life, I want to have a a newspaper, and uh I've often wanted to to go to these um the these families that have such you know dysfunctional kids uh in school and go to the home of like you know the kids that's always getting kicked out of school, probation, uh the bully, the I mean, you know, okay, uh a dysfunctional kid.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not talking about uh physically dysfunctional, I mean psychologically, like this kid is gonna end up in jail by the time they're 18, you know, that kind of thing.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: And go to the home and do uh a kind of an interview and a seeking of who does the family look up to?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: What do they spend their free time doing?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: What do they eat?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: Where do they go for recreation?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and just get like a like this composite.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll bet if you did that half a dozen times, you would start seeing really similar uh things, similar heroes, similar programs to watch, similar games to play.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: I just think you start seeing some real similarities.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: So as a culture, you could say, hey, you know, this is really destructive.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: This whatever this is, you know, these these things.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and and you start tying the behavior to the you know to the the time and um and monetary investments of the parents, the guardians of these uh troublemaking kids.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: I got down a rabbit hole there pretty quick, but but you you see where I'm um you're you're you're exactly right.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: It it it it comes to these to these consequences of of what your of your activity.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what I think would be fascinating to see in that 2%, are they even paying attention to what's happening in Washington in the news, right?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe they don't, because the because the 2%, if they think the government pretty much always is doing what's right, is that regardless of who's in office?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a Republican or a Democrat?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: They always disagree.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I doubt it.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I would guess that probably they're not really up to date on what's happening.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, you know, each to his own, that's fine too.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: But for you to honestly be always okay with what the government has come down on, no matter what side uh is in office, you probably are not paying attention.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, um with coming back to the government shutdown, it was a big deal for me only because I knew I had to get on the plane.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was watching uh, because I usually don't follow in great detail what's happening when a government shuts down, you know, we've been through it many times, but I was actively watching the airport because I had to get there.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was the keynote, so I had to get there to speak.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I actually uh, and this is kind of a this was the silver lining of my government shutdown story.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and you don't know this yet, Joel.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't tell you this yet.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I call my uh the my host, you know, this is that Amish country.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I call my host and I'm like, I don't know if you know what's going on right now with uh with the government shutdown and I have to leave in the Atlanta airport and flights are getting canceled and everything.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what's a contingency plan?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if we need to, can you like Skype me in there?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can we do the, you know?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, no.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, like you know, we didn't pay for that package for you know the company to come in and do that.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: So he says to me, uh, so so um a heavy hitter was coming uh to speak as well.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the heavy hitter is one of your friends, Joel.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was Justin Rhodes.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, uh-huh.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so he says, Well, Justin hasn't called me to tell me that he might be having problems flying in.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he's and I and I was like, Well, maybe he's not aware, or maybe he's driving.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so he goes, Well, can you just call him and ask if you can drive with him?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I don't even know him.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, how I don't have a number for him.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I'm thinking, well, I guess I can maybe call Joel and ask if, you know.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyhow, he connected us together over text message.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, some guy I've never met, like I have not talked to him.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the funniest thing because uh he messages me, you know, Justin messages me and pretty much is like, well, um, you know, our host said that you might need a ride.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm driving, which come to find out, he and his wife had no idea that the government was shut down.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they didn't have any idea of what was happening with the airport.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: So he's like, Yeah, um, I found out you may need a ride, you know, and he was so kind.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: He said, You're welcome to come ride with us.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: You could come stay at our cabin, you know, come out tonight, stay in our cabin, drive with us.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, oh my gosh, these people who have never met me.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm gonna stay in their cabin and then we're gonna drive together for like nine hours, and that's with no stops.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm thinking, what if they don't like me?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: What if we don't get along?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: What are we gonna talk about for nine plus hours?
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it was the funniest thing because um it was my silver lining because I ended up like I dropped everything, drove to their house.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you actually did, you actually did get it.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: I did it.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because I was tracking what's happening at the airports, and more and more TSA agents were not showing up for work.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so the lines were getting worse, and people were missing flights, and then having to go back and get different tickets.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it was bad.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up driving to Justin Rhodes, never have met him.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: I spent the night um next and I still hadn't met them because I got there so late because it's all last minute.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: They were already tucking their kids into bed.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: Get up the next morning, I go over there to say hi.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, now let's go sit in this car together for nine hours.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it was like, it was such a cool experience.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, they're they're they're just wonderful.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're just wonderful, wonderful people.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: They are the best.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: It made me actually really bummed out that I had not met them before I moved to Georgia because I would have been their neighbor.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: We were like three peas in a pot.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, Justin was in the back seat, Rebecca was driving, and I was in the front seat, and he was even joking that he couldn't even get an edge in word-wise, uh, because we were like about like everything, all this health stuff, and she's a health nut too, like all the way down there.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: He was teaching me about AI when he could get an edge in, you know, and like how we could automate and whatever.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the funniest part about it was that, well, for me, is that when when the connection was made between me and Justin, I literally ran over to Donnie and I was like, oh my goodness, I get to stay in Justin Rhodes' cabin and talk with him for like nine hours each way, which is also why my throat hurts so badly and I'm kind of hoarse because we talk so much.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I was so excited.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I get in the car with them, and maybe like 10 minutes into it, Rebecca tells me their side of the story that Justin gets this text message from our host saying, um, Sina McCullough may need a ride with you.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: So he goes over to Rebecca, his wife, and says, You're not gonna believe this.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sina McCullough may be driving in the car with us.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Oh, shut up! Yeah, it was the best.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was awesome.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's great.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're like BFFs and they're coming out to my house and they're gonna stay here, and they want me to bring my kids to their community.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're you're not you're not that far.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: You're what, uh, two hours from them?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about three hours and twenty minutes.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Three hours from us.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's not bad.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: Which which is which is that's a little hike, but it's not terrible.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's not a that's not a terrible, terrible drive.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now my perception has shifted.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: After driving 14 hours in a day, three hours is nothing.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: And coming back to our topic for today, I have incentive now for that drive.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're they're adorable people.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they are.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: They they are they are just the best, the best in the world.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you can you can see why Justin and I have hit it off really well.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: We we're we we get along really well.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um so here we are.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um with we see it, I mean, we see it routinely with our with our um apprentices and stewards here, you know.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um they don't know we're bombing Iran.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they don't they're we're we're just in this, you know, this little bubble and and all this stuff is going on.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I mean, I think that's a challenge for us, is we we need I mean, people that know me know that I'm a pretty regular reader of the Wall Street Journal.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't agree with everything there, but um I you know, without without a TV, I just feel like I don't I don't have time to do a lot of video watching news, but I do try to, you know, keep up with I'm a bit of a a news junkie that way.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um and you know, part of why the government gets by with stuff is because we're ignorant of what they do.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: We we don't we don't know what they're doing, and so we need to we need to let let's let's be challenged um with the with the necessity of us being aware of what's going on.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it's hard because people are so spread out now, like so well, they're so spread thin, right?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: On the treadmill, most people I know are overwhelmed, overworked, they don't have the capacity to, you know, follow everything that's happening.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I really think that's one way in which we can help people is you know, we stay on top of things and we can distill it down and then help them to come up with solutions to empower them.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um because you know, it is a it it is it's hard with we have information overload in our modern society.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Never before have humans ever taken in so much information.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a matter of, you know, knowing having that balance, right?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Take in some, um don't have these misplaced expectations that they're gonna solve the problems for you, right?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that way you don't set yourself up for the motion of roller coaster.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can also think rationally and find a solution, you know, because really, it really comes down to like let's say in DC, those senators are gonna get the same roughly$174,000 a year, whether they're a visionary leader or they're like a total obstructionist.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't really matter to them.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that we really need to have in in everything we do, we need to have some skin in the game.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: It holds you accountable.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's an actual consequence.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I mean, those systems just end up corrupt and they fail us.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: So um Yeah.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and and that that really um, as we as we wind down here, it it brings me to the idea.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you read any historian, any historian at all, it doesn't matter from what persuasion, they all agree that prior to the civil prior to Abraham Lincoln, um the federal government was literally a nothing in everybody's life.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, think about it.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there was no national, think about how many, how many uh cabinet level positions there were.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: There was no Department of Energy, no Department of Housing, no Department of Education, no uh USDA, no um uh where have I gone?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um OSHA.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean the the the federal government before Abraham Lincoln was was literally a a punctuation mark in the in the country.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: The big thing was states.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was a states rights outfit, and the numerous states uh did their did their various things.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: Once Abraham Lincoln was elected, and if people wonder if I don't like Abraham Lincoln, yes, I do not like Abraham Lincoln.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um I know that sounds you know radical to a lot of people, but I you know we don't have time to go into all that.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: But um I mean he he brought he would not let states he would not let a group of people decide what they wanted to do.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now, oh yeah, the slave slave.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I get the slave issue, and I don't like slavery either, but slavery was very much on its way out, which is why Adam Smith, when he wrote The Wealth of Nations, he pointed out he he Adam Smith had already proved that a non-slave was actually much more economically productive to an employer than a slave.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: That that and that was brand new information, worldwide information that was that was that was um uh being disseminated throughout the world, and and it was you know it was it was gonna be done.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't like slavery, I don't condone slavery, but um once Abraham Lincoln got in and grew the federal government, created the USDA, uh abandoned habeas corpus, did all the things that he did, from that point on in our country, the federal government became a much bigger player in our lives.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then, of course, of course, under Woodrow Wilson, that was another huge step.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because Woodrow Wilson gave us internal revenue service, you know, the the federal income tax, and then of course, under FDR, then it went off the rails.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it's it's just hard to imagine what it was like prior to the point where the federal government was simply not involved in stuff in our lives.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: It just wasn't.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: It just wasn't.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then the and and we we actually survived.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: We got along, we got along okay.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and so now at that at that federal uh, you know, without the state at the federal level, the farther you put the farther you put the decision maker from the consequences of their decision, it does two things.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: It makes the decision maker um inconsequential to the decisions that he made, and it makes the decision makey, is that uh the the person who who who who who got the consequences of the decision, it makes them completely disempowered because there's such a big gap.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's such a a big social, political, even geographical gap between the person who who suffers the consequences of the decision and the person that made the decision.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we we come back to this this federal.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you say you're a constitutionalist.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: I am too.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: And a constitution did not envision a federal, uh, a federal government intervening in as many things as it does.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: That was not the way this country was set up.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, I mean, you're exactly right.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, to your point, bringing it back around to that study that I first cited, where 66% of the reduction in Salmonella actually came from management-driven decisions and not uh government regulations and mandates.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's I mean, it's exactly what you're saying here is that most people think that we had all these problems, and then the federal government swooped in and solved all these things.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: But even the USDA's own study there shows you that the government mandates and regulations only accounted for about a third of the reduction in salmonella.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: The rest came from the people, you know, from the companies in their own management.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't need this federal government uh for even for food safety as much as people are kind of brainwashed into thinking that we do need them for that.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, question of the day.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: Question of the day.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: How would you make congressmen and senators I don't know, liable?
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a right word?
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: Liable for their decisions.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: How how would you make congressmen and senators is liable to the right word?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_02: Am I looking for something else?
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um liable for their decisions?
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: I would think accountable.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: Account okay, fair, accountable.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_02: How would you make because clearly the the the voting booth is not doing it.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: Is there something we're missing?
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is there something we're not thinking that would actually bring account uh you see you had the word, that's right.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um that would make them accountable for their decisions.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think that'd be fun to toss out and just see if if somebody um comes in.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, come up with a solution.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everybody, thanks for being with us on another Beyond Labels podcast.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: We hope this didn't um uh run too far afield.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know it was different, but um, we are different because we're beyond labels.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks for joining us, and we'll be looking forward to enter your world again next week.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.