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We’re Living In A Touch-Deprived Culture with Shirley Dvir, PhD. · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So five, four, three, two, one. Our folks, welcome back
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to the podcast. Very excited to have as my guest today, Dr.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Shirley DeVere. Shirley, welcome. Thank you, Guy.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. Dr. DeVere is a founder and lead teacher
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of relational somatic healing and a licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: She earned her PhD in somatic psychology from California Institute
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: of Integral Studies, where her dissertation explored relational touch in
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: psychotherapy for healing relational developmental trauma. She's practiced psychotherapy since 1997,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: working with families, children, couples, and individuals, and has spent
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: more than 10 years teaching as a certified Hakomi teacher.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Her training includes attachment practice, EMDR, sensory motor psychotherapy training.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, sensory motor trauma therapy. Hakomi, family therapy, cranial psychotherapy,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: and body-mind centering. All right, Shirley, just a little bit
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: about you. Before we get going, share with the listeners
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: where you're from originally and where you are currently. Yes,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: thank you.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was born in Israel. I was born in
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Israel to Arabic Jewish family. My parents are from Arabic descent.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: and I moved to California about 20-something years ago, 25
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: years ago. So I see myself as an Arabic-Jewish-Israeli-American woman.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: So it's very close. How does all this start for you, Shirley?
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Yes. Thank you. So I started my work, my career
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: as a social worker back then in Israel. I worked
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: with Holocaust survivors, families. And I was really interested to
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: helping families heal and people heal. And through the time
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: and through the years and through experience, I landed in
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: California and studying transpersonal psychology and somatic psychology. and became
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Hakomi teacher and really loved the work. But something was
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: still feeling like there was a gap for me there.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And I was working with clients and felt that something
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: is not quite working and is still not feeling better.
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  Speaker 2: Many of my clients are still super depressed, cannot get
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: out of bed, anxious, their life is not doing well.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: And I'm I felt short to help them. I felt
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: that something is missing here. And then one day I
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  Speaker 2: was introduced to my beloved teacher for craniosacral work. And
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I was on her table to do craniosacral work, which
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  Speaker 2: is a very gentle form of touch and healing. And
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  Speaker 2: I was blown away of how I felt on her table.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I was like, wait a minute. I feel so good.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I feel so regulated and so Wonderful. And what did
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: you do? And she said, oh, you know, it was
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: just being with you. And I just kind of put
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: in my hands and we were just kind of swimming
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: in the river together.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I've never felt that before. All the years of doing
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: psychotherapy on myself, you know, as psychotherapists, we have to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: do it on work. I've never felt that before. I
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: never felt what a regulated nervous system feels like in
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: my body with another person. So I said, oh, my God,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: if I combine this, If I take this to my
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: clients with all the skills I have, which is Hikomi,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: sensory motory, whatever it is, that could be like really amazing.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: And that's how it started. It was, you know, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Let me ask you first a question. Give us
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  Speaker 1: the thumbnail of craniosacral. When I hear craniosacral, I think
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: of the head.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Like cranium.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Cranial and sacrum. Sacrum is our … Craniosacral. Sacrum, yeah. Okay.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: So we hold in craniosacral. I'm not a certified craniosacral therapist,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: but I studied craniosacral. So craniosacral therapist holding from the
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: sacrum to the head and holding the space for the
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: liquid in the spinal liquid will move through. And there's
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  Speaker 2: something about that work that is so gentle. and so profound.
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  Speaker 2: You feel like you rested so well. You feel like
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: you're so regulated after receiving such a gentle form of work.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: And is that strictly touch? Is there any talk therapy.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Involved in that? The pure version of craniosacral is strictly touch.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: My practitioner was very talented, so it was more than that.
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  Speaker 2: She had many other skills, so she was very skilled.
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  Speaker 2: There was one session, Guy, that I was on her
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  Speaker 2: table and we knew each other for many years by then.
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  Speaker 2: I would go see her like once a month. And
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  Speaker 2: one session that all of a sudden, she's holding me,
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  Speaker 2: very gentle touch. And all of a sudden my arm
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  Speaker 2: is jumping on her and kind of looking for her.
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  Speaker 2: And I didn't even notice that that happened. Like my
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: brain didn't understand that. And I was like, I didn't
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  Speaker 2: know this. And she said very skillfully, she said, I'm
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: right here, sweetie. And that was the moment that I
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  Speaker 2: felt that everything shifted in me around secure attachment, around
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  Speaker 2: feeling there is somebody right there with me. There is
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: something about that session that, of course, there was a
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: lot of preparation before, but in all my years of
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: doing psychotherapy, I've never achieved this kind of state of
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: really feeling somebody there with me. And it was my
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: body that felt it. Later on, I was like, what
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: just happened? And of course, I was crying and I
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: was in a very emotional state. But it was my
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: body first and then the brain catched up.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: That, yeah, that's so interesting and fascinating and inspiring. I
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: want to jump back quickly. Yes. You started, you said
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  Speaker 1: you were so interested in helping people.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Helping people. Yes. Why? What was the genesis of that?
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  Speaker 2: That's a good question, Guy. You know, I always, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's just who I am. It's just really, it's, I
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  Speaker 2: always felt the calling to help growing up in Israel
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  Speaker 2: and watching so much traumas on so many levels from ancestors,
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  Speaker 2: from Holocaust, from being immigrants, from Palestinian suffering, Israeli stuff,
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  Speaker 2: like the whole thing in my life, every second, every,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: every breath. I was I was really determined there is
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: another way, and we must attend to healing. There is
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: another way. I always felt, no, something is not right here.
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  Speaker 2: There's another way to communicate with other people. There's another
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  Speaker 2: way to be with other people. There's another way.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: So you talked about having this incredible experience with this practitioner,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: and your thoughts were, well, what if I brought this– Now,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: that speaks to a particular topic of one, the plethora,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: the variety of modalities out there that practitioners are oftentimes
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: overwhelmed with. What the hell do I do? How can
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I EMDR? All these different things. But it also speaks
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  Speaker 1: to what calls to you as a practitioner. And it
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: sounded like this really spoke to you. Right. And my
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: belief is when you, uh, acknowledge that calling and you
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: start studying that, that becomes very powerful.
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  Speaker 2: Right. And it was really also my clients that suffered
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: so much and with no remedy and, um, like, like,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the very first client that I started
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: to touch work and nothing worked. And they were like
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: on the edge of going to be hospitalized or kicked
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: out or laid off or their partner didn't want them anymore.
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  Speaker 2: Like those clients that I said, okay, let's try something different.
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  Speaker 2: I tried everything and I was very skilled and I
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: tried everything. And I was like, you know what? I
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: just started some craniosacral work. with my teacher, let's open
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: the table and see what, what will happen there. I had,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: I was still like in a curious kind of incubating
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: kind of place. And together we saw the miracles happening.
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  Speaker 2: And together we saw them coming back to life and
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: starting to, to be in their body and starting to
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: feel alive and tapering off medication and, Suicidality is no
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: longer an issue and coming back to being a parent,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: coming back to being a partner. So something happened there
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  Speaker 2: that I was so blown away. And then people started
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  Speaker 2: to come to me and students started to come to
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  Speaker 2: me and ask, can you please teach me this work?
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: So just, you talked about holding, What are you doing?
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: That's a good question. So I am a psychotherapist. I'm
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: not a craniosacral therapist or massage therapist. I'm a psychotherapist.
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  Speaker 2: It's very important to me that I will stay a psychotherapist.
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  Speaker 2: This is my specialty. It's very important to me. So
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  Speaker 2: what we do is.
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  Speaker 2: We are slowly bringing our clients to the table after
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: talking to them about touch, after asking consent, after really
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: exploring the possibility, clearing all the transference and all that
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: that happened in the room, explaining why we're doing that.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: And then we are bringing my clients to the table,
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  Speaker 2: a massage table with blankets on. And so they lay
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: on the table. with a blanket on, on their back,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm sitting next to them. And we're just being together.
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  Speaker 2: And then I'm asking permission, how would it be if
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: I came closer? And then I'm asking permission, how would
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: it be if I put one hand under your shoulder?
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  Speaker 2: So the work is an ongoing consent on every second
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: of the work. So they have the power to feel
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  Speaker 2: To sense, to say no, to say yes, to say
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  Speaker 2: not quite. Can you actually move it to the heart?
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  Speaker 2: So the work is, yes, I'm holding people in different
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: places in their body in a very non-agenda kind of holding.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Very simple presence. Back to the origin. Back to just
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: being present fully with my client.
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  Speaker 1: Everything you just said now, Could be so profound.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: Just sitting next to... First of all, just being on
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  Speaker 1: a massage table with blankets over you. You could just
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: feel how that could be activating and triggering for a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people. And then having someone sit... Everything you said,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: all those steps in and of themselves could be very energized.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Think about where in the wild do animals feel comfortable to...
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  Speaker 2: Just sit next to somebody or be next to somebody,
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  Speaker 2: sleep next to somebody else. It's only when they feel
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: completely safe.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: So this work is really about relearning what safety feels
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  Speaker 2: like in my body with another person. We can't learn
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  Speaker 2: safety from a yoga class or a retreat or meditation
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  Speaker 2: or a.
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  Speaker 1: Book.
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  Speaker 2: We have to learn safety through another human being. It's
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: a relational work. We have to learn safety through another
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  Speaker 2: human being.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: So, okay. So this brings up relational somatic healing. Right. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: What is it? Yes.
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  Speaker 2: So relational somatic healing is a modality to help clients
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  Speaker 2: heal their relational developmental trauma. through presence of the therapist,
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  Speaker 2: through a hands-on. It doesn't have to be with touch,
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  Speaker 2: but a lot of time with touch as well. I
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: want to say something about relational developmental trauma. Is this
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: a good place?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: So when I started to see clients and I had
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: many trauma tools and many other tools, I was already
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: established therapist. I felt, as I said before, I felt
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: like I was short in helping them. And then when
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: I started to understand what is it, what is it
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: that I'm seeing that I can't really help them? And
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: I started to understand that, oh, this is developmental trauma territory.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: This is not just trauma. And this is not just
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: a kind of regular kind of events that we need
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: to talk on. This is developmental trauma. This is all
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: related to trauma that happened in childhood. And I researched
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: and I studied developmental trauma. I did my whole PhD
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: on that. And I realized that for me, I kind
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: of coupled together a few terms like complex trauma, chronic trauma,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: attachment trauma, developmental trauma. And I put them under relational
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: developmental trauma, which is trauma that happened between the child
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: and the caregiver, within the child and the caregiver, that happened...
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: in relationship to the child and the caregiver in the
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: early years of life. That's how I see relational developmental trauma.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: So there is the relationship was compromised, there is trauma there,
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  Speaker 2: and it's in the body.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, in the body? Are we talking about physical abuse,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: sexual abuse? Are we talking about neglect?
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: All of it.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: All of it.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: It's trauma that happened in the early years in life
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: that is related to the parent-child relationship. Now, what's special
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: about it? Why is its own kind of territory or niche?
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: It's because a few things. One is because the child
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: cannot go back to the parent and say, hey, I'm
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: stressed or I just got hurt. There is no repair
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: to come back to. to the parent and regulate because
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: the parent is the cause of the trauma. The other
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: thing that physiologically the child or the baby is not developed.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: So there is no fight or flight capacity. So the
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: child cannot run away or cannot run away, cannot fight.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: There is no, think about a baby. A baby cannot
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: fight or flee. There is attempts to do that, but
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: it's not successful. And the other thing that babies and
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: children can, We're like a sponge. Our boundaries are so permeable.
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  Speaker 2: There is no way to not take in everything that
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: happens at the house. So because of all of those,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: there is no other choice for the child or the
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: baby but to leave their body and dissociate. That's the
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: escape of no escape. That's the only thing that they
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: can do is to leave their body and dissociate. And
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: so when I met those clients and I still meet them,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: their dissociation piece and leaving their body is what I
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: felt in the room that I felt I need to
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: help them how to come back to present moment more.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And I don't know how, I didn't know how back then.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: And it's not about let's meditate or let's this and
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: feel your feet on the floor. Actually, in the research
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: that I did in A lot of the participants, I
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: studied participants who received this work, and a lot of
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: them were really angry at other somatic therapies. Because one
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: of them said, if one more therapist told me to
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: put my legs on the floor and feel the ground,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: I was just about to explode.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Feel your seat, feel the bottom.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, feel the bottom. What I found that through touch,
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: It was the only way that I know how to
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: help clients to slowly come back to their body without
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: telling them come back to their body. But just that presence,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: that relational presence, somatic presence with another person, that I'm
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: fully in my body, I'm present in my body, and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I'm holding somebody. Slowly, that invites them to slowly come
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: back to presence as well. And then is where their
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: life starts to change.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: So relational touch.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: One, well, I could imagine. I mean, for many people
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: who've been traumatized, who've experienced developmental trauma, that in and
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: of itself could be triggering. Right. I don't want you
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: to touch me. Be in my body? No.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: So you talked about kind of prep work and consent
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: along the way. How do you start that? Yes.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: So it's not a one session thing. I always say
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: to my students, it's a relationship and we're building upon
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: the relationship. We're building upon building safety in the room.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: And that can take many, many sessions, sometimes years for
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: clients to feel safe with me in the room. But
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: we're attending to it in a relational way. attending to
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: the relationship right now in the room, how is it
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: for you to be here with me right now? How
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: do you know if you're safe right now with me?
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: So we start in there, way before we take them
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: to the table. A lot of people with trauma, developmental trauma,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: had harmful touch in their childhood, right? Physical abuse, sexual abuse,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: It's harmful touch. So we need to really honor it
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: and understand it and go really slowly. And most of
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: the participants, so 16 of the participants, a third of them,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: when that therapist told them about the option of touching psychotherapy,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: they were terrified hearing that. And they said, Oh my God,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I'm terrified, but I know this is what I need.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: So it took them really, really slowly to explore that.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: That was the missing link for them. And just slow
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: and really good, clean boundaries, talking about everything and having
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: consent again and again and again. Ongoing consent. Consent is
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: not something that you sign on a paper, but it's
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: an ongoing, every moment of consent. So they feel empowered.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: They tell me where they want the hands. They tell
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: me where to be, how to be. It's all about
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: them feeling empowered and I'm being there with them.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Is there any like energy work going on in this?
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: No, we don't do it. Yeah, no, we don't do
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: all of that. I, I studied a lot of, so
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: I've over the years, everyone who could teach me touch work,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: I went to study with them. And, We're not doing that.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: We're not doing anything. Really the focus here is just
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: about being with. So, and that needs, that needs a
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: lot of retraining because a lot of my students are
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: psychotherapists that wants to do.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: You know, if I may, sure. This is, first of all,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: this is fascinating. Um, it, and it reminds me of
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: when I first started this podcast, one of the first
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: people I interviewed was, uh, a very seasoned elderly veteran
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: of the United States service. His name was Gerald Vest.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And he worked with, he put together a program to
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: work with veterans who'd come back with PTSD. And he
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: said something very similar to what you said. He said,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: these guys, most of them were men. He said, these individuals,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: talk therapy isn't working. You know what they need? is
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: they need touch.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: And this was like an old, craggly veteran who was
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: working with touch with these guys. And he said, initially,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: just like you were saying, a lot of them were like,
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: who are you frigging kidding? But touch was so amazing
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: for them because you could feel, he said, you could
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: feel them kind of melting and it's what they needed.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: And I can feel what you're saying melting how we
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: don't experience that.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: No, we don't.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: When do we experience that safety? And when we do,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's just incredible. Let me,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: before you answer anything, how was this for you when
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: you first started doing this? Like, how were you dealing
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: with trauma in general and then touch specifically?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, in my own healing process, Yeah.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: How was it for you? Oh, my God. All these
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: people have experienced trauma. This is heavy or not. I know.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think, you know, again, have been a therapist
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: for so many years. I would see clients and I
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: would come home tired and depleted. And sometimes I would help,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: sometimes feel like I don't know how to help. And
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: sometimes there is, I felt like, oh my God, this
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: client is completely falling apart and I can't support them.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: So I, you know, I always loved my work, but
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: I felt depleted and I felt coming home. I felt
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: really tired. And back then I wanted to have kids
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: and I'm a mom today. I have two kids, older kids,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: but I felt like, how would I do that with
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: coming home to my own kids? And once I learned
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: the touch work from Alison Post, my teacher.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: It.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Shifted everything for me. I did my own work with her.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: And also another teacher of mine is Bonnie Bainbridge-Cohen, the
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: founder of Body Mind Center. And she is a really
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: good friend and a mother to me and a teacher.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: And something about both of them really shifting and shaping
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: how I see clients today. And it's about how I
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: am in the room with people. So I'm not taking
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: on the trauma, but I'm being with them. And the
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: trauma is being digested in another way that I don't
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: carry it with me when I'm home and I'm coming
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: home with energy to my kids and myself. So it's
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: really shifted my life and my practice in such a
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: profound way.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: So let's kind of shift gears a little bit as
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: we kind of close out. Who are you working with now?
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: How are you working with individuals? Who comes to you?
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Right now, I'm mainly teaching this work, relational somatic healing.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I'm also seeing clients twice a week in my office.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: A lot of my clients are psychotherapists themselves who wants
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: to study this work, but I have also clients from
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: different that are not psychotherapists. People come to me because
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: they want something different. As you said before, We are
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: not being touched. And especially today, especially COVID time, at
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: COVID time, we are really touch deprived culture or world,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I will say. And, you know, at COVID, I had
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: a client calling me, begging me that I will see
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: him on the table with touch. And I said, you know,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: it's COVID time. And he said, Shirley, I'd rather die
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: from COVID than aloneness.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: And I said, okay, let's do it. I went with
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: a mask on and windows open, you know, COVID. And
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: then clients started to hear that I'm in the office
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: working and everybody wanted to come. I worked the whole
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: time with a mask on and windows open and filters
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: all around. But it just speaks to how touch deprived
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: world we are and how lonely we all feel. And
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: in this work, we're here to attend to that. How
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: do we heal loneliness? How do we heal aloneness and loneliness?
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And there is no other way but human-to-human relationship, real relationship.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I'm not putting a therapist hat. I'm a real person,
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: human-to-human relationship with touch. Because touch reminds us of who
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: we are, reminds us of our resiliency. of who we are,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: remind us that we can be more regulated, remind us
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: that we're much bigger than our traumas.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I love what you just said. You know, I'm a human.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: I'm not putting that therapist cap on. Yes. Of course,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: you're not forgetting all your training, obviously. Right.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: But when did.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: You realize the importance of that?
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really Bonnie Bainbridge Cohen, my teacher, really.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: I really owe her that and so grateful for her
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: that I saw how she is and how she works
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: with people and with me. She was the same everywhere.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: She's not put in a hat or I'm this famous
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: teacher right now. She was just the same, and I
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: felt how she's respecting human beings that way.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Babies.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: She works with babies and disabled babies. I said, we
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: need to take that to psychotherapy too. Why are we
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: hiding behind those titles and hats and all that? Can
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: I be myself? Can I be human? And that means
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: also sharing. So clients, you know, sometimes sharing that, you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: I feel anger right now towards my client or I
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: feel far away from my client. It's not always lovey
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: and dovey, right? There is clients that there is a
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: lot of stuff between us. Being human, really naming the
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: humanness of being real with our clients, really prepare them
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: to take this work to outside of the room. It's
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: not like I'm the therapist and I can, Be so
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: nice to them. But outside of just me, surely everyone
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: else is nasty to them. I don't like it because
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: I feel like we are raising narcissistic lines here this way.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: But if we really teach them a real relationship, when
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: I have my own feelings, sensations, thoughts, reactions, I know
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: myself well. I did my work. I have my work.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: When I need to, I go do my work. But
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: being real, if something happens right now in the room,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not just going to pretend, oh, it's okay. I said,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: you know, that was ouchy. How is it to feel that?
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And then this is what prepares them to the real life,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: to do it with their partners and their kids and
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: so on.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, or Shirley, how do people learn more about you, uh,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: your trainings and your work? What's the best way?
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: And we are at a relational somatic healing.com. And we
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: have different trainings on relational training. We call it a
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: foundation training. When we teach relationship work without touch, um,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: We teach a whole class, almost a year-long class, before
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I take students to touch their clients.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yes.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: And I'm very proud of it. We teach ethical, safe touch.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: It takes time. It's not a one-day workshop. And after that,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: we teach touch classes. We teach developmental map classes because
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: we need to train their therapist to see where are
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: the clients in development right now and how they're doing
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: relationship development. with me according to the development. And those
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: are the main classes that we teach. And we have
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: other classes like grief, grief work, because relational work is
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: embedded in grief work as well. And social justice work.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: We have many different.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Classes.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But those are the main three.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. I'm looking at your website now and your trainings,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: developmental map, foundations of, R S H, which is what
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about. Um, the art of healthy, healthy,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: relating fish bowl day. I love this. Yeah. Amazing. Um, Shirley,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: come on. You are incredible. You have an, I have
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: to say you have an amazing smile from the, it's very, uh,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: it's bright and I love it. Um, so inspiring.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Can I say one more thing?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Please.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I wanted to say that this work is not just me,
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: it's a community and I have a lot of support
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: from students and teachers and the community is incredible. People
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: are really excited to be in community where they can
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: be real and authentic and just be and be present
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: with one another. I feel like this It's not just
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: me leading it. I am the head of it, a creator,
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: but there is so much support around that for me.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: And also to say that I am teaching this work
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: in Israel and Palestine and in Nazareth. And it's been
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: so rewarding to teach this work in those places and
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: And we have also Ukrainian therapists that we sponsor and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: they come study with us. For us, this is the
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: way we can contribute to the world about how we
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: can do things different, how we can be in relationship
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: that is different the way we know how to be.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: And many times when I teach, especially in Nazareth in Israel,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: I have those aha moments from students saying, oh my God,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: if everybody would get this kind of support or holding
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: or healing, I think we'll be in a very different
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: space here today. And I said, I know, I know.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: We really could.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: So this is our little hope for the world that
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: we heal through connection and we heal through relationship, one
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: relationship at a time, providing the very basic needs of relationship,
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: which is holding and touch and attunement in a safe,
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: boundary way like not boundary but a safe and ethical
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: way i will say i appreciate.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: You sharing that um this has been so inspiring i'm
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: so happy to uh have met you and speak with
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: you thank you for being.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Here thank you thank you guys all right
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: We'll be in touch thank you