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Episode #195: Coming Soon: A Smartphone That Sees Nutrients in Your Food · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: If with a flash of light we can see what something 10,000 light years away is made up of, our thought was with a flash of light we could should be able to see what something a millimeter away is made up of.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's effectively what we did.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: We built a handheld meter.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We set up a bunch of labs, we tested almost 10,000 samples of crop across multiple continents, across multiple years from hundreds of farms.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: We overlaid the soil that those crops grew in against the nutrient levels in the crop, against the um management practices and environmental conditions.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: We showed that nutrient variation is really dramatic, like 4x, 8x on the mineral side of the thing, and 20x, 40x on the compound side.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um so this carrot has eight times as much phosphorus as that carrot, or 40 times as many antioxidants as that carrot.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And nutrient variation is dramatic and it does connect to soil health.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we're on this quest to define nutrient density.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everyone, I'm Joel Salatin, the farmer, along with our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Cena McCullough, with another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: We have a treat, treat, treat today for you.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: Dan Kittridge, founder and visionary of the Bionutrient Food Association.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: I knew Dan when he was about uh seven or eight years old.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh his parents were instrumental in uh in founding and developing and moving with the uh the New England Organic Uh Farming Association, NOFA, has numerous state affiliates in New England, and they were literally the voice, the articulation, and the eloquence of that.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: And he so he grew up in this wonderful familial um uh mix of luminaries who would come and and um his parents would do interviews and he'd get to you know be with these folks, and and of course, their own farm was a model of um you know of progressive uh you know ecological farming.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's only natural that this um talented young man grew up to uh to imagine imagine what I would call a next cutting-edge level of um of not only production but verification in the uh in the ecological food space.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so several years ago we started the Bionutrient Food Association, and those of you who are faithful followers of this uh Beyond Labels podcast know that um several several podcasts back, uh Cena and I, mainly Cena, I just I'm just uh I'm just a train hooked to her engine here, um, really delved into light and the whole idea of of actual cellular light that we actually know now that within the body and within our cellular structure, light is emitted.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's a it's a kind of a mind-blowing idea.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: And when we got done with that, I told Cena, I said, you know, we got to have Dan on here because this is so um congruent with his basic idea that you can measure elemental elemental substances by light emissions.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: And Dan, if I'm butchering this, you just correct me.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and so, and so today we have the privilege of of pursuing this with Dan Um, who is gonna illuminate us uh on on how he's using light uh to you know to measure, to measure substances.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's as elemental as I can make it.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: So welcome, Dan.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: We're just so honored and privileged to have you.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: You've been a you've been a uh a hero of mine for a long time.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm thank you very much, Joel.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really honored to be on your podcast.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and yes, you were one of the luminaries that uh passed through when I was young and and and powerfully affected me and and offered offered me perspective.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so thank you for your role and not only my life, but so many others.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've been a very powerful um visionary in your own right and leader.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh thank you.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the thank you.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we're it looks it looks like we're all friends here.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So mutual respect association.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely right.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's absolutely right.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: We're all we're all doing good good work, great work.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so Cena, you want to you want to just move forward with um with your kind of questions and and just again, I would I would tell our our listeners if if if we're going too fast for you on this light thing, go back to that previous episode, listen, uh, listen to what we talked about with light emissions, and because we just we just don't have time to go to cover all that, plow that ground again.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's move forward with assuming assuming that cellular structure um does create light, or Cena, you can say it better, and then we're gonna then we're gonna move forward with Dan and what he's developing.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that sounds great.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: I want to bring people along um to have Dan talk about his work a little bit.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: So as Joel mentioned, um Dan is the founder and executive director of the Bionutrient Food Association, which is a nonprofit group whose mission is to increase the quality in the food supply.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And Dan, you're known as one of the leading proponents of nutrient density, and you work to show people the connection between soil health, plant health, and human health.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start off by can you share with us how you and the Bio-Nutrient Food Association is working to increase the quality in our food supply, and as Joel mentioned, to empower the consumer so that we can measure and know for ourselves what the nutrient composition is in our food.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, yeah, the organization was founded in 2010, and uh our our primary work uh has been education for growers, um helping them understand effectively how nature evolved things to work.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I did grow up in the organic, in the organic uh world.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: I called it, you know, it was almost a bit of a religion, I think.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um we definitely had our our uh our dogmas and our and our and our and our structures and things like that.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot of a lot of wonderful, wonderful impulse in that.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's when I got married and started trying to um make a living farming that I realized um that like a lot of farmers, I was having a hard time making a living and started to look beyond that religion that I grew up in to um other other insights um that I really um I don't know, I was exposed to a more full a more full story.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that um Joel is well well versed in Acres USA, and that was really sort of the the place where I got exposed to the the wisdom of you know integrating biodynamics and permaculture and agroecology and biochemistry and microbiology and quantum and intention, all those things, as far as I'm concerned, are lenses through which we can perceive this thing, um, life, which really is what's going on here.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um it looks like the more well you can establish high levels of life in your system, the more well things function, the more vigor and vitality the plant has, the better pest and disease resistance, the lower cost of production, the better soil health, the better flavor, the better um shelf life, the better nutrient levels, all those things seem to correlate.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was as I dialed that in on my farm and began to integrate those insights that I was able to get to a point of making a living working part-time farming and started sharing that um as I was learning it through workshops and then uh courses and then and then found an educational organization.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um the core work of the organization is really um that education about how nature evolved things to work.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, and there's a whole conversation there, which I don't think we've got time for today, or necessarily is the objective of this interview, but I'll just say that all of our work is freely available on YouTube, etc.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we um you can pay you can pay to attend our courses, but also our thought is this is information that should be free for the planet for all growers of all scales and all continents.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have a um an ethical position, which is that all that understanding should be should be freely available.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that is where we started.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the work that I think you're interested in here is the work around nutrient density and what is it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, part of what I um came to at Acres, this is almost 20 years ago now, as I was beginning to put these pieces together, was that um boy, it sure did look like there was this dramatic nutrient variation in food.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um not all organic was great, and not all not organic was horrible, that there's a continuum of quality in food.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um back then we were talking about the refractometer and bricks as a way to measure that, a really, really simple way of measuring that.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it's you know been around for almost 200 years now, and and um I was like, my god, their nutrient variation exists, plant health, you know, varies dramatically.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: We can assess plant health in real time, we can use that understanding to shift our management practices.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Nutrient variation is dramatic, we can assess that at point of purchase.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is amazing.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Does anybody else see the implications of this?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this could be uh like this gets right through the religions of thou shalt be local, or thou shalt be organic, or thou shalt not till, or you know, um, it's like there's a continuum here, it's not a binary, it's not black and white.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's and and so I said, What's the word for this thing?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: What's the word for this variation in nutrient levels and food?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: To the elders at Acres, where I was learning all this, and they said, Well, there is not there is no word for it.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: There is no word for this variation in um nutrition in food.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, can we make one then?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's where you know this term nutrient density sort of started was in that in that environment and an attempt to bring forth this deeper conversation around the nutritional variation in food.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh yeah, so fast forward till 10 years ago, um, and we'd been doing our courses and they were spreading around the world, and people were getting positive results on their farms, regardless of scale or soil type or crop type, um, climate zone.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we're like, wow, it does look like working in harmony with nature causes all these concomitant benefits to occur.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, soil has improved, ecosystem function has improved, farm viability has improved, um, you know, nutritional value, et cetera, human health has improved.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't it be great if we could bring to scale these insights?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't it be great if we could create a dynamic where um this could be supported on scale?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the question was, how would you do that?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: What would be the incentive necessary to shift the way that farming is done um to a degree where you know all of a sudden it's being done more well in harmony with nature?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and our thought was money is power um in today's day and age, that money has a very powerful effect on things, and if we could align that economic incentive with um the ecological incentive, maybe we'd have a um a viable strategy.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um that came down to this concept of basically if the people who buy food um could know of the three choices you've got in front of you, if one's 20 out of 100, one's 40 out of 100, one's 80 out of 100.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, our thought is if you knew that, if you could have access to that information, whether it was beef or milk or apples or potatoes or rice, um, that you might choose the 80s and leave the 20s.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and if and you might even post that on social or or tell your family and neighbors.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you did, if you did choose the better stuff and you told your friends about it, and they chose it as well, then all of a sudden the better stuff would leave the shelf and the worst stuff would stay in the shelf, and we'd have an economic incentive in the supply chain to you know focus the farmers' minds on nutrition as opposed to volume, which is currently how the system is effectively driven.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um the thesis was then you'd have to to be able to do that, you'd have to use a flash of light.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a spectrometer is a technical term.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, we are able to read what stars are made up of 10,000 light years away, or at the atmosphere of planets actually 10,000 light years away, we can read what they're made up of with a flash of light.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: We can read what you know, stars are made up of millions and billions of light years away.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And a light year is a really long distance, right?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if with a flash of light we can see what something 10,000 light years away is made up of, our thought was with a flash of light, we could should be able to see what something a millimeter away is made up of.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's effectively what we did.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we built a handheld meter at a consumer price point.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: We set up a bunch of labs, we tested almost 10,000 samples of crop across multiple continents across multiple years from hundreds of farms.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: We overlaid the soil that those crops grew in against the nutrient levels in the crop, against the um management practices and environmental conditions.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: We showed that nutrient variation is really dramatic, like 4x, 8x on the mineral side of the thing, and 20x, 40x on the compound side.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so this carrot has eight times as much phosphorus as that carrot, or 40 times as many antioxidants as that as that carrot.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's the kind of variation we found in individual nutrients in food.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: We looked across more than 20 different crops in that process.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um, yeah, we proved that it's true that nutrient variation is dramatic.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: We showed that it connected to life in the soil and not to certification level labels or genetics or point of purchase.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we proved that our handheld meter um could test these nutrients with a flash of light.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: We got that published in nature.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um so that was basically a the you know affirmation of our thesis, like it it is possible to build handheld meters that consumers could could hold and use at um to assess nutrient variation, and nutrient variation is dramatic and it does connect to soil health.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we're on this quest to define nutrient density because that's a really complex question.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: What is nutrient density?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um our thought is if you have a thesis that nature has patterns, that she has, you know, ways of doing things that that we can use the scientific method to assess, then let's engage a really broad and deep um assessment to look for those patterns, and and hopefully that will be our our our standard for nutrient density.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's what we're doing now.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Beef is the project we started with.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um Joel was uh part of our our launch uh almost four years ago now.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're we're we're finally finally coming close to I think having that answer and then being ready to actually plug and play for 20 more crops.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think we figured out how to do this.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, the vision is that actually one of the phones, uh one of the cameras in your phone um you know already has the hardware necessary to be able to do this.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's called hyperspectral imaging.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we think that actually once the science is done, you won't actually need to build separate instruments.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have you won't have to have a separate little meter in your pocket.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: You've already got one.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um the phone you have, or the phone a lot of people have, um, has a cameras in it that are good enough to do this assessment.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: We just need to know what the definition of 20 and 40 to 80 out of 100 are so we can calibrate that camera on your phone.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is so fast.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'll ask, I'll I'll I'll send it over to you, Joel, next because I know you're chomping on the bit too.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, I'm so excited.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my actual next question was to you what is the definition of nutrient intensity?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you brought that up.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are you thinking, or where is it, where are you going toward right now in terms of what is this actual definition?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you start coming up with continuums, that's one of the first things the scientist is going to ask is what are the parameters upon which you base that continuum?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I'd love to know your thoughts so far from all this work you've done, which is very amazing, of what you think nutrient density is at this point.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, from a from an empirical scientific perspective, um, I can answer that question.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Is all always other other angles too?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would say uh God gave us these really, really sophisticated nutrient modern devices called noses and tongues.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um actually, if we come up with a definition that does not align with what our noses and tongues tell us, we probably have the wrong definition.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of my basic rules of thumb when I'm teaching my courses is if nature's telling us something and humans, humans are telling us something different, um, the humans got it wrong.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just start with that basic assumption that that there's these um underlying ways of discernment that are actually much more um complete and and we should always have humility about what we come up with in our numbers um and look for the patterns of nature.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if they seem like what our numbers are telling us and what nature is telling us are different, we maybe should use that as an excuse to stop and and and reassess.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: But from that, from that empirical framework, the process we're doing is we're looking.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So effectively, we had with beef, had um ranchers, farmers, uh grazers from around the planet send in a steak from three different animals.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Each steak was assessed for over a hundred different nutrients, um, elements, enzymes, vitamins, amino acids, fatty acids, uh, polyphenols, turpenoids, so hundreds, over a hundred different nutrients.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: The uh each each each farmer was sent in a fecal sample as well, with which we did a uh microbiome assessment for over 200 species um from multiple kingdoms at you know, quantities, not just the presence, but also the quantities of of these different uh microbes.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: We were able to do a RNA analysis of that sample and look at the what the types of plants were in the fodder that they were eating.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the farmers also sent in a um a uh a fodder sample, whether it was the fresh grass they were grazing on or the hay or the TMR, they sent that in.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: They also sent in the soil that that fodder grew in.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um they answered uh a bunch of management questions about the genetics and age and management practices about the animals, and also there was a um human health trials done on a subset where we had um people fed this, you know, 100% grass-finished beef, and we looked at their um inflammation markers from after consuming it, and then they were fed uh corn-fed beef, and then they were fed impostel burger.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we can overlay the microbiome against the biochemistry, against the fodder, against the soil, against the management practices, against the human health dynamics.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And basically the idea is look for patterns.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Can we find patterns between the microbiome and the biochemistry and the agronomy and the soil health and the human health response?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can, it would be those biomarkers that show up, which would be our definitions of quality.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, we're effectively trying to do a a really a deep um you know multi-factor assessment of the dynamic, look for patterns, be as humble as we can.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's only a million dollars we've been able to raise and put into this project so far.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And ideally, this would be a much, much more expensive and complex process.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So our thought is this is a preliminary standard, this is an opening salvo in a process that this is, I think, what governmental agencies should be looking looking at.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you had a you know a couple, a couple billion dollars um on the planet, let's say there were you know lots of countries that all had USDAs, um, you know, and NIHs and things.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: If we could spend a little bit of money studying the connections between soil and management and nutrient levels and human health, we probably could solve a whole bunch of problems systemically, uh, really rapidly.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we have to start with this idea that we're here in partnership with and service to nature as opposed to control of nature.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, that's the basic model, and we're starting on wheat next.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um, our target is to raise$25 million in the next three years and spend it on defining nutrient density in 20 crops, um, so that you know, by 2028, we have a um a broad assessment of this thing definition for the world.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And by 2030, we've got meters out there that are being used, and we've dramatically shifted the way that agriculture is done.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have the capacity to um reverse desertification, to um rebalance the extremes in the climate dynamic, to uh reverse chronic disease.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Select the life force out of agribusiness and pharmaceutical industry.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think the implications and opportunities are completely massive.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can hide behind science, if we can um, you know, use the Western rational scientific method as our as our as our um you know the standard the standard under under which we're we're walking together, it could be a high ground around which a broad suite of different social movements could find common ground.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, who is opposed to food being more nutritious?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is this instead of fighting problems, can we can we come together around solutions?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how about how about we say we're all in this together and it's bottom up as the only way that real things have ever happened and people power, you know, not against but for is a is a is a way to think about you know engaging going forward.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love that because we all eat food.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I've said that for a long time that like it food crosses party lines, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like we it affects all of them.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: People care about the health of their kids, they really do want their kids to be well.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and you know, as you're talking, Dan, Joel, I just thought I could just see like you emanating with love for Dan because what he's also talking about is this is gonna supersede labels, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: From a podcast and a book that were beyond labels, and we talk about all the flaws and the fallacies of labels and the cost, the cost of labels and how it's passed down to the consumer.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And now they're bureaucracy, they're they're they're false structures.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And this is part of what got me into this whole thing in the first place was watching my parents, you know, who wrote some of the first organic standards in the US in the 80s, um, you know, watching them go through the process of having the USDA come in and take it over and bastardize it and water it down.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and um I mean my they might my parents were actively involved in the process of organic, you know, becoming this big bureaucratic BMS that it is now.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And part of my design consideration was looking at that, watching that, having that be a foundational part of my life.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we get beyond that?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: How do we get beyond labels?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's a perfect name for a podcast.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like this is completely what I'm doing is getting to a situation where it's direct perception, it's it's a it's a continuum.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's uh you can see in real time, you don't need to trust anyone else.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh yeah, I think it's a really yeah.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Could it just also kind of one question and I promise I'll give it back to you, Joel?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right, along this line, Dan, couldn't that actually also decrease the cost of our food?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's costs involved in maintaining establishing these labels and maintaining the label.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: But if companies realize that now we have all these, you know, this meter on our phone, and this is what the market is saying, the market's speaking, that we're gonna buy what based on the results that this meter shows us, it's gonna supersede the label.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: They might do away with the labels at some point, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: If they're not getting the investment, uh the return on that.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I don't know about the bureaucratic cost of labeling, but from a farmer's perspective, my experience has been that when your plants are healthier, your cost of production goes down.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it actually, you know, you can you should be able to outcompete on price if it if there wasn't a free market, if it wasn't open market, if there weren't all the fingers in the scale with all the you know subsidies and things like that.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like working with nature is more efficient.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: It you know, it has a decreased cost of production than the chemistry set model, you know, which is basically there to optimize profits for the people selling farmers' things, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so it should be less expensive foundationally.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I remember I had this conversation with a guy who worked for for Walmart for Whole Foods, um, um at the I think he was a North Atlantic regional buyer.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he was responsible for all the all the um fruits and vegetables that were in every whole Whole Foods from Washington, DC, all the way up the rest of the East Coast.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Look, you guys have a reputation for being, you know, having high quality produce, wouldn't you want to be involved in supporting this project?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, not a chance.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we know exactly how good our quality is.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And because we know how good our quality is, we use brick bricks re factometers, we know where our our crops sit on a bricks reading.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: The last thing we want people to know is how good our quality is.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're two years out from having this, when you're two years out from having consumers able to see, at that point in time, we will tell our supply chain that they need to meet metric or we'll stop buying from them.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think the way this thing shifts is it's a question of how many clothes the emperor is wearing.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I'm I'm really overtly open to working with players of all scales in the supply chain and saying, hey guys, we're in this together, it's a business, you know.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's in your business, it's in your best interest to have better quality on your shelf.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can align your supply chain when your competitors are not, then you're gonna have a market opportunity here.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I think if we can just be overt and and and clear to those players, and a lot of them are are reaching out now, and they're really big ones, then and they're names that you wouldn't necessarily think are saying, Hey, we we hear what you're doing, and we think that's a good idea, and we'd like to align our supply chain accordingly.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's really quite exciting.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, one of the most in course, I've been following you for a long time.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: One of the most interesting things I think that you have learned uh is that when you were, for example, studying carrots or broccoli or uh what you found was that organic was not necessarily the organic government certified organic, let's put you at that, government certified organic was not necessarily the best.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: You found you found some extremely good good stuff in kind of run-of-the-mill uh places.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um would you would you just I I think that blows the lid off of this label thing, uh and and the and the as you say, religion, I love that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, mineralized or whatever.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Regenerative, local, yeah, regenerative.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, local.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um could could you could you just you know uh go down that rabbit hole for a minute?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think you're gonna count.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: What's that?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Just some of those things that you found that were that would be surprising to the average person.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: What we saw what yeah, we when I said we had this variation that was eight to one or twenty to one or forty to one, top to bottom, like the carrot with the highest level of sulfur or highest level of phosphorus had four times or eight times as much as the carrot with the lowest level, there was a continuum, it's a bell curve of distribution between those top and bottom.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you if if the top was you know 100 and the the bottom was zero, most of the samples were in like the 20 or 30 or 40 range, or 15 or 20 or 30.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if there were 300 carat samples, um I don't know, 200 of them were between the 15th and and 35th percentile.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like the vast majority of that variation was relatively low, and it didn't really matter whether something was organic or local or no-till or what the variety was or what the point of purchase was or um what the soil type was.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Almost everybody everywhere is doing a relatively poor job.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um no, it's like it's almost impossible to find the samples that are at the edge of the curve, but there are samples at the edge of the curve, and they don't correlate with coming from the farmer's market, coming from your backyard garden, being certified organic, being no-till, you know, being regenerative.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: None of these things correlate.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: We found some of the most exceptional quality samples we found on the grocery store shelf, not organic.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, what that means is there are some farmers that are not organic that are operating on scale doing a really good job.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And there's some farmers that are organic operating on small scale doing a very bad job.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the question is, what is good and bad?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: From our perspective, that good and bad is how nutritious is the thing, how many, you know, how many nutrients are in there.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the only thing that we found that correlated with that increased or decreased level of nutrition was levels of life in the soil.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um, it's not whether you're organic or not, or local or not, it's whether you're stewarding your land in such a fashion as there to be high levels of life in the soil.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um you can, with organic certification, have low levels of life in the soil.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can be a local person, uh, you can you can have a backyard garden and have low levels of life in the soil.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: So even though you may be well-meaning, um, that does not mean you're working well with nature.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing I think we all need to understand is it's when nature is flourishing that good things are happening, and it's up to us to be discerning and sensitive and and in this beautiful, delicate dance with nature if we want those best things to happen.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times we're given dogmas, we're given thou shalt, you know, everyone else is doing it, add compost, you know, whatever, whatever the thing is, um, thou shalt not till.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, if there's no air in the soil, the microbes are gonna die from asphyxiation.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to have air in the soil for microbes to live.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like it may be that the thing that's cool these days, as everyone is saying, don't till, but just because people are saying it, it doesn't mean it's what is a you know, it's it's a it's a dogma.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's again, so um yeah, it rapidly becomes very nuanced, and people say, wait a minute, what am I supposed to do?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And how am I what are the practices I'm supposed to follow?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I say it's a toolbox, right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a farmer, you got a toolbox, you want to have your Phillips heads, screwdrivers, you want to have your flatheads, you want to have your your metric, you know, socket set, and you want to have your imperial socket set, you got your different shape pliers, and and um only when you've got a full toolbox can you fix anything.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so all these techniques of mineral balancing and tillage and inoculation and um cover cropping, etc., etc., those are all tools in the toolbox, and just going and prescriptively applying a certain set of protocols is not actually working with this living system to help to optimize its function, um, if that's a metaphor that works.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, that that that's fair.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, as a as a livestock producer, uh you know, you you uh graced us with your presentation at the Stoppman Grass Farmer Gathering here um a year ago, and uh the most amazing thing to me was that in all of your beef, your beef analysis, the single most, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember, the single most um consistent metric for high-quality, nutrient-dense beef was not, it was not genetics, it was not climate, it was not uh, you know, region of the country, you know, all the things that you know, warm fuzzies that everybody sells, it was how many different kinds of plants the animal ingest?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: How many different kinds of plants did the animal ingest?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, how much variety was in the salad bar?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Diversity.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_03: Once that plant that just amazed me.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: That was that was an amazing thing.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't matter, it didn't matter where you were geographically with soil type, climate zone, didn't matter if you're doing annuals or perennials, but it seemed to be the thing that correlates most is the is the is the diversity of of species.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um which makes a lot of sense if you understand the microbiome and and the patterns of nature, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: But nature doesn't do monocultures, nature does polycultures, and every species of animal has its own gut flora, every species of plant has its own gut flora.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's the broader the diversity of microbes in the ecosystem, the broader the system function, the the you know, the system's ability to access and and solubilize and and you know pre-digest, etc.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's really beautiful, it's really simple, you know.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, nature figured this whole thing out, and if we can build our tools of culture, you know, around the structures of nature, we could have alignment, right?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We could be able to realize our our higher uh our higher potential, I think, as human beings.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's really what it's about for me, is you know, we are beautiful beings.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're just in the structures of culture that are making it very difficult for us to to be that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we can begin to shift those structures of culture, um, we have a viable potential to do wonderful things.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think we have to do it ourselves.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to take responsibility for that.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: We can't look to master, you know, we can't look to the government for for for um solving things for us.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: We can't look to big companies to solve things for us, right?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: So Cena, I I know um we would be remiss if we didn't leverage your your capacity to understand this light wavelength burst of light in the cellular structure and drill down it with that with Dan.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and I'm already over my pay grade, but I do not want our hour to get away without without just sitting back on the sidelines and watching you and Dan uh take this to a you know to a to a level that'll take our listeners to a kind of blow your mind level.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: Can you do that for us?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So Dan, why don't you, if you would, explain to us how this device works in in relation to light?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: How is that actually working?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: How is it actually measuring of what we'll term the nutrient density?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so spectroscopy is the is the term of the sort of the field of science that is operational here.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's um spectrum, the scope, the spectrum, spectroscop spectroscopy.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so effectively every element in chemistry, people may remember from tenth grade, you know, that uh copper had X number of protons, Y number of neutrons, and you know, Z number of electrons.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: We thought we were taught that copper is a set of protons and neutrons and electrons, and and zinc is a different number, right?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's a different atomic weight, it's got a certain different number of protons and neutrons.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're taught these things are things in chemistry.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um in physics, copper vibrates at a certain frequency, um, and zinc vibrates at a different frequency.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: So so we're taught that it's a thing in chemistry, but we're taught that it's a it's a vibration in physics.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so vibration basically is light.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there's a spectrum of spectrum of light, and there's a small amount of it which is visible, but there's infrared and ultraviolet and and all kinds of other you know ranges of of light vibration.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so what a spectrometer is doing is taking a picture of the vibration of a thing.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so copper vibrates at a certain frequency, zinc vibrates at a certain frequency.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: All things in chemistry are vibrations in physics.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Protein is a vibration, um, amino acids are vibration, um, polyphenols are vibration, all these things vibrate, they have different sort of spectral peaks, it's called, where they where they where they resonate.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, so what a spectrometer does is it flashes a light at uh um, in this case, the carrot or the cucumber, and takes a picture of the light that bounces back.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, through complex algorithms and all kinds of metadata analysis and lab work and blah blah blah blah blah, you can calibrate a meter that says when it takes a picture of the light that bounces back and says it when the light that bounces back looks like this, that means so much copper, so much protein, so much amino acid.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when the picture comes back looking like that, that means a different level.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um it is how we have been measuring what the stars are made up of for a very long time.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and um yeah, I think that's best basically covers it.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if that's intelligible to people or not.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: I hope it is.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, I love that.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think that piggybacks so well, don't you think, Joel, on what we've talked about in the podcast, where I basically, Dan brought them through going from looking at things as we are machines, like our bodies are machines made up of these chemicals, to then we talked about no, we're actually light beings and we emit light and the body uses its own light that it creates to heal itself, even 100%.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so we expanded that.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you're talking about this, I think that piggybacks just so perfectly because you did you connected the chemistry with the physics and how even just the perception of the way that we view those elements, those elemental atoms, actually it it can change your whole perception of that food and of the body.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: We talked a lot on this show too about um people existing or resonating at certain vibrational frequencies and how we attract things and how certain frequencies um bring health and certain frequencies bring on disease states, yeah.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm assuming you're agreeing because I I I would have loved to have been part of that uh conversation, or I I need to go back and listen to it, I guess.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent think that there's a vibe, and it can all that's a really good way of explaining things, and and that's part of my basic um rationale or explanation here is like um, I mean, for me, I call this whole thing a spiritual covert up.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we're trying to do here is ground consciousness to create a dynamic where people are more able to tune into their divine selves, which from a physics perspective I understand to be basically just higher octaves of vibration.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the physicists tell us that that 95% of the universe can't be found.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you guys heard about this one?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: They call it dark matter and dark energy, right?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: They call it dark because they can't find it, it's not on the physical plane.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: They can't find it.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like all the machines that we've got, all the all the telescopes and microscopes and all the things that the physicists have ever developed, can find five percent of reality.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: 95% of reality they can't find.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's why they call it dark matter and dark energy, and that's how much of the universe is unfindable to them.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: My explanation or understanding is that it's really just at levels, there are octaves of subtlety, and that you know, from the divine consciousness, pure love, all the way down to the physical plane, there's these different octaves, and and that we are not just a physical form, we are uh we are a spiritual being, and um, there's many levels of being in us.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's the emotional being, there's the mental being, there's the energy level, there's all these different all these different dynamics.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about um think about DNA, right, as a compound, like everybody taught DNA is a compound.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, understand everything in chemistry, everything in chemistry is a vibration in physics.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: So DNA actually vibrates.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've got a genetic marker or 30 genetic markers, that those breaks in the DNA that correlate with chronic disease, etc., think of them as vibrations that are out of tune.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you've heard a beautiful symphony orchestra play, there's all the trumpets and all the flutes and all the violas and all the you know tubas, each of those notes has to be in tune for the chord, for the orchestra to sound amazing.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: So each of those genetic markers can be a tuba or a trumpet or a flute.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: If one of them's out of tune, it destroys the chord.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: The harmonics, the vibration, the resonant harmonic of that chord becomes out of tune.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: So these genetic markers that we have built up over decades and generations of eating the product of chemical ag, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: As we have our grandmothers and our mothers have been eating food that was grown poorly, and effectively we have these genetic markers now that come from these you know deficiencies.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're vibrating out of tune.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: We it becomes very, very difficult for us to ground our deeper spiritual coherence, those higher octaves of of of transcendence that I think is what is our natural birthright, becomes difficult for us to be centered in if our bodies have been for generations now being built incoherently.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um So yeah, um, I'm not sure if that's where you wanted to go on this question of vibration and light, but but for me, it's all completely interrelated and it can be understood scientifically, um, but it really does return us to those deeper deeper truths that our cultural heritage, you know, regardless of which cultural heritage you come from, has in common, I think.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, and I agree with everything you said, and I I think that the master like orchestrator, the conductor is your consciousness, like of all this these vibrational frequencies.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so my question for you is well, one of my questions, we can literally talk for hours on this.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: One of my questions is do you so we we know that humans have consciousness, and like like I said, I think that is the master conductor of this beautiful orchestra that's inside of us.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: In your opinion, do plants have consciousness?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Where is consciousness not?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I as I understand it, the foundation of reality is consciousness.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's so what came first.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's God.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: If God is all that is, God is love, God is consciousness, that is that is the divine spirit is the foundational thing, and then out of that, you know, the more and more gross vibrations we get down to the physical plane.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: But at the essence of it all is consciousness, as I understand it.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so then is the meter measuring consciousness?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um we are built with these amazing, we we carry around with us these amazing meters of perception.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Have you heard of it?
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's called a body, right?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's this thing like people make the mistake of of um thinking that they are the body.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure that you are the spirit, and the body is the thing you're carrying around with you, and that body can perceive on many, many levels.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that gut, that heart, those, those, that the logic, those different centers of knowing that we have within us resonate.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: When you have a feeling, a deep knowing, a deep experience, that is your consciousness meter, that is your sentience meter, that is your that intuition.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're hardwired with it.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is actually an instrument of vibrational discernment, of perception that we're carrying around with us.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's multidimensional, it's not just in the physical plane, right?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: We are operating all day long on multiple dimensions, and that we're not taught about that in our Western national culture.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're taught about everything is a thing.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think, and you know, in actual fact, if you know, scratch the surface, most people will say that they've got a there's actually a whole bunch going on inside.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole bunch of of things deeper within that we all experience, we don't really talk about because there's not a language for it, or it's not safe.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: But um I think I think the conscious the the coherence consciousness meter is the thing we're carrying around with us every day.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this little little ray gun gizmo thing as a you know a bait and switch, shiny object there to capture people's attention and and direct a conversation back to this deeper remembering that we already have and are all that we ever need.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just we need to stop looking outside of us for answers and start looking within.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's how I'd say I told you you'd love this guy, Cena.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like you're my instant soulmate here.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he sounds like me.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: We've all got our issues.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you um Cena, you you you know, you you broached this.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: We dug very deep on that podcast about the actual light emanation from at the molecular level, yeah.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh in in in metabolism, in in cellular division, in all these things.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh when we uh uh when we look at all of these relationships as uh Dan, I love your your uh your musical your musical analogies here.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: We look at all of these relationships, I mean think about you know my my mitochondria in my cell, all right.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: That though that that resonant relationship is like you know a clarinet and an oboe harmonizing in an orchestra.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and if dis-ease, which you like to say, Cena, dis-e, in other words, you're out of ease, out of you're out of uh uh harmony um dissonance.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: Dissonance, yeah, yeah.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: To to realize to view our internal relationships that way regarding disease, uh dissonance.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: That that if I can bring this orchestra back into harmony, you know, then I'm I mean think of how how we're how we're just the language that we're using around this compared to well, I've got cancer, or I've got you know, I've got lupus, I've got this, I've got that.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um the consciousness, which is really, really powerful, you know, projecting on itself that something is wrong.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you say I've got cancer, I mean your consciousness is really powerful.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh you're projecting that on yourself, right?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, so I mean this is oh god, it's so powerful.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_03: These the framing and the understanding and the way we look at all this stuff, but which which which brings up you know the the whole idea of fear and anxiety.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, look at COVID and and and everyday Falcon.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: You you flip on the radio in the car, and it's giving you how many people in your state died of COVID yesterday, how many, I mean, it was like a daily uh like a ticker, you know.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the number of cases.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, we just we the we were completely bathed and immersed in this in this um uh fear and paranoia, and and uh man, it it's it's it's almost which we then which we then you know resonated, yeah.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: We we took it in with our with our minds, with our consciousnesses, and we felt it, and then we vibrated it, and we propagated it out into the world, right?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the how it works is we are of these vibrating liquid crystals, whatever the you know, the consciousness, the idea, the the feelings are that we're holding, we're literally vibrating out, we're propagating out into the field around us.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, this is the power of propaganda, um, and the and the you know the propaganda ministry is that if you can if you can propagate these incoherent thoughts into people, they will then propagate them out into the world around.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's uh it's a really a deep conversation about how the system works and and and how brilliantly we can be manipulated and controlled.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it is through these vibrations, right?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not through logic, it's this field.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone is propagating this field of fear and you're in their presence, you know, if you're not careful, you'll resonate with that, and then you'll replicate that and you'll pass it on.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, if you can propagate dissonance, you can also propagate coherence.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: If that's the point is about this, the power of consciousness is we need to take responsibility for the stories we're telling, for the feelings we're having.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think the more we can ground our form in you know, substance that that gives us the inherent coherence, the more readily we can tune into those higher octaves rather than the lower incoherences.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, that's why I call it a spiritual covert up.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is really about about raising consciousness and and grounding our our divine natures in our day-to-day lives and um and and our human culture.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: So And would you agree that like I've said and Joel and I've talked about this on the podcast before, that um our consciousness, like our field, also affects our food.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: So not only growing your food, but even cooking in the kitchen.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we even have that saying that you know, oh, the missing ingredient is love, like that's like it's the biggest X factor in the field, as far as I'm concerned, is the love the farmer has for their land, for their plants, for their animals.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can treat your animals as though they're cogs in an industrial wheel, or you can treat them with love, and that makes all the difference in the world.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Same as with a two-year-old or a baby or a dog, same as with the cucumber plant or your lettuce plant.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: They all are sentient and they all respond powerfully to you know your state of being and your intention.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um have you measured that?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like with your meter, can you measure that?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: And do you also measure light, the light emanating from uh we're talking about biophotonics and other higher octaves, I think, of coherence, which is what I really want is a coherence meter, not a nutrient meter.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm hiding behind the Western rational scientific method and saying it's all vitamins and minerals and uh bioactive compounds.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, I love you.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: Speak the language of of the physical plane um and meet the world there because that's where you know that the lingua franca right now seems to be the scientific method and the physical plane.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, okay, great.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, truth resonates on that frequency as well.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: So let's engage there to make find common cause, and then those who want to have a deeper conversation, we can go there.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe one day the biophoton aspect might be added.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually wired to do this ourselves.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: The thing is, we don't need external meters, we need to remember that we actually have the capacity to perceive these things directly.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and really that's the whole point is to remember that you are all that you'd ever need.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and to, you know, these externalized answers are not really answers.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're maybe they're they're they're they're crutches.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and really it's about finding that answer within, um, which I think is our capacity to perceive, right?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: You can we have clairvoyance and clear audience and clairsentience and and the ability to perceive energy and to see with our third eye.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're all we're all wired with these deep capacities, and that's really the objective.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um is to, yeah.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're if your whole life is nothing but uh but TikTok, uh NFL football and beer in the fridge, uh you're pretty far removed from those kinds of um, you know, those kinds of your your radar your radar is uh foggy.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly, there's all kinds of things that we engage in and are surrounded by that have negative impacts.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, I I would say that an unhealthy, you know, emotional relationship with someone can be extraordinarily um difficult for your overall system.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've all got we've all got you know imbalances of one sort or another.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we can, I mean, you can find I'm I think I think you can probably find inspiration on TikTok.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think you probably can find guidance that resonates with your deeper insight.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: These are modes of engagement that the humans have, and judging isn't probably not gonna help.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um trying to meet people where they're at and and and find common cause, I think is the is the best way forward.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um I like to say until you're walking on water, you know, don't throw stones.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm pretty sure there's a wise people who've said that in the past.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, fair, fair enough, which is yeah, which is why which is why we want to be careful about uh about saying that even somebody like Bill Gates is evil intended.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_03: Just give him benefit of the doubt and say, no, he actually believes he believes he's doing well.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if we start there, we can have a conversation.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: And people say, Well, you're naive.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, um uh maybe so, but let's uh if if I want somebody to give me the benefit of the doubt, I gotta give somebody else the benefit of the doubt.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and and throwing stones does not help, right?
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: Judging others does not help.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I say, I say focus on what you can do.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is out of your hands.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to speak poorly of others and and and rail against the state of the world, well, hopefully that gives you some emotional pleasure, but really it's completely counterproductive.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like acknowledge the nature of things and then find what you can do about it, and put your attention, your effort, your creative divine capacity into manifesting, you know, bet benefit in the world.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: Take responsibility for causing the world to be a better place yourself rather than bitching and moaning, because that's not gonna help anybody.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you certainly are living by that philosophy.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: You certainly are contributing and finding solutions and so were you guys.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: So were you guys?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: We all are.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us are, and you know, in our in our days, doing doing everything we can.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you look at it, most people really do try as hard as they can to do as well as they can.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're well-intentioned.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're good, we're good by nature, we're beautiful beings.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: So if people want to learn more, Dan, where can they find more about you and more about your work and how can we support you?
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, bionutrient.org is the main website.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, bionutrientinstitute.org is where all the science stuff is.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've got various socials um that you can find and follow.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, on the bionutrient.org site, you can join, you can make a donation.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's bottom-up work.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's everything's open source, everything's running on donations and charitable, um, charitable support.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, we're not a company, we're a we're an educational organization.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the the the more the the more donations we have, the faster this work will get done.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um it really is that it's that it's what it comes down to.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Jill, do you want to close us out?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you, Dan, so much for being with us.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: We just are so honored and privileged, and you're a you're a you're a true light in a in a crazy world.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: So uh thank you so much for being with us, and uh, we're glad to have you and look forward to the next the next um whatever stages of the development of this um uber uberization of uh food democracy.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: Good, beautiful.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you everyone for being with us on another uh Beyond Labels podcast, and we look forward to visiting with you again next week.