Latest / CrossPolitic Show / CrossPolitic One on One w/ Joel Berry
Transcript
- Hey, I was gonna cross-politik what I want with the water boys could be with you guys. Make sure you guys share the show and you know all the bells and whistles and the shares. Please do that. Take care for cross-politik as we take care of you. Today with what I want to get, I got Joel Barry in the studio with me and thank you for coming all the way from old. Hi, yo. Yeah, well Tennessee. Yeah, just moved down to Tennessee. Yep. Yeah, living with Jeremy Boring. Not with him. Same town. Make that the same exact area. That's the, let's be clear. So real, I mean, you know, I've known we first met when you were meeting you at your Babylon B. Yeah. We were doing some cigar stuff. We were always. Yeah. We always eventually get there with cigar stuff. Yeah. And then, but I mean, I'm actually curious. I didn't know you before Babylon B. You know, you grew up in the Midwest. You know, did you grow up Christian? I loved actually just start with, oh gosh. Yeah, Joel is. You know, we're just, oh man, well, I was born. No. I, yeah, I was raised, you know, I'm a homeschool kid. I'm one of six. So I'm very like, you know, and what are you middle school? I'm oldest of six. Oh, the sixth, okay. Yep. So I was homeschooled up until, a lot about you already. Yeah. Up until high school, I was homeschooled. You know, my parents were both saved in college and, you know, raised me in a very, I mean, it was a very fundamentalist for Christian. I mean, it was like, it was like a Moscow, you know, like, so like back in the 90s, I don't know, there's like a mosque. Did you drink? Did you smoke cigarettes? No, that's true. I feel like, I feel like a lot of the Moscow guys went migrated here because they were, they were raised in my upbringing where like suddenly, oh, we can drink and smoke and as a Christian, I'm going to Moscow. Yeah, I'm going to Moscow. But you know, back before, I feel like Christian fundamentalism kind of, well, it kind of moves around. Right now, it's like very much in the reformed space. When I was growing up, it was independent fundamental Baptist, you know, IFB. So that's, that's where I'm very familiar with IFB in those, that world. I don't have a problem with the word fundamentalism. No, I'm going to go, I wouldn't apply it, I guess, to Moscow just because I know of what it meant. Well, before, but maybe I think maybe a better way to think of it is like Christians who are very serious about being Christians, which is great. Like living it out as fair and very, and trying to very intentionally raise their children to let the Lord and to follow God. Now, my, my parents kind of got, they fell into this bill gothard thing. So if you're not familiar with it, my dad went to bill gothard seminar, but he didn't fall into it. So what bill gothard was, it was good stuff. It was kind of like prosperity, prosperity gospel for concerned parents. Like you followed bill gothard seven steps or whatever. Yes, we bless your kids will grow up in the love of the Lord and turns out that's not. My parents were three for three. So they are three for six, three of us stayed in and three left right. Yeah, okay. So yeah, I midwest, like oh, yeah, I grew up in Ohio. Most of my life in Ohio. And I, you know, I wanted to be a missionary growing up. I, you know, I wanted to spread the gospel. One of my heroes was Hudson Taylor. Yeah. I have a son named Hudson now. And, you know, my, my prayer was always for God to just use me in some way, shape, perform, you know. So I, I, when I went to college, I went into the military first. Well, my first stint in college was a Christian college called Pensacola Christian College. Yeah, BCC. I almost got, I came with them like a, their marit of getting kicked out first year, which is that they're very liberal with the merits there. That's the only way they're liberal. And I had a friend who went there and she would wear jeans to bed because she, she thought she was a gay person. You just wanted to wear jeans. What's that? Well, we, we, like, they didn't allow internet on campus there. And so we had like this black market where we would, we would save websites to CDs and we would trade like, you know, okay, I'll trade your home star runner for my, you know, my, yeah. Yeah. And so, anyway, I lasted a year there. Okay. I was kind of lazy, kind of a slacker, didn't know what to do, ended up going to the military when that, it became marine, was deployed overseas. Okay. Where were you? I was in Fallujah in 2006. And came back, tried school again, did much better that time. Where did you go back to school? I went to school at Bowling Green State to be a pilot because I wanted to be a missionary pilot, like fly in the buddhish. We had friends and family growing up that did that. And so, you know, my senior year, Congress changed the law to where you had needed additional, like 1500 hours to get your air transport pilot license because there had been a commercial airline crash. And I was getting married out of college and I was like, I don't want to work minimum wage for three years building up my hours to be an eyelet. So I just kind of found, found whatever job I could. And it ended up being in like corporate sales. So like, I ended up working in sales for, you know, seven, eight years. So young married, having kids, just miserable. Like, you know, I wasn't very good at it. And I kept having this dream, like that, that I was walking down this hallway and there was something around the corner. There was a light around the corner. Like there was something good coming and I didn't, but I could never get around the corner to see what it was. It was just a reoccurring dream I had. And I had a breaking point with my career. I lost my job. Kind of was trying to figure out what to do. And my wife kind of knew me better than I knew myself and she said it, you're a writer, you're a thinker. Like you should start writing. And I was like, well, how do I feed a family? You know, like, what do I do there? And so she said, I don't know, you should figure it out. Take a year to figure it out before you get another job in sales or, you know, another corporation. Like take a year to figure it out. We'll make ends meet. You know, she was a nurse. She's like, I'll take some extra shifts and we'll make this work. So for a year, I started a little podcast. So before that, it was this. This was like 2017. Okay. What was the little podcast he started called? It was called the Petty Profit. Okay. And it was actually induced by Jeremy Boring. So this is all come full circle. Interesting. One of Jeremy Boring's early daily wire backstage episodes, he was relaying a story from Hollywood about how people would come up to him all the time and say, hey, how do I make it in Hollywood? How do I get a movie made? How do I get my script looked at? And his message to all these people trying to make it was always, you're asking the wrong question. You shouldn't even be out. You should just be out doing it and let the success it like in the phrase that he used was kind of like a little switch went off in my brain and suddenly understood what I had to do. He said, those who do do and those who don't do, don't do. And I was like, I instantly get what he's saying. I just need to start doing stuff. Start a podcast. I started my own website. I started a satire website. So this is about the same time as the Babylon B. Really? And what was your satire web? What was called the Petty Profit? And I did like serious stuff. I did satire. I wrote articles for newspapers and columns wherever I could get published. You know, just started writing and thinking and my thoughts out there. And because of all that, the Babylon B took notice of me. Yeah, so I started pitching on occasion. They started publishing more and more and more. And it got to the point where I was publishing and writing for them so much. And I went to the Ohio man, the managing editor at the time call me and said, hey, we should probably start paying you for this. Like you're doing a lot. So that became a part-time job, which I didn't have a full-time job. And I spent the next seven years writing. For the Babylon B? So that was like a 2018. Yeah, like 2000, 2018 going then into 2019. Okay. And then you became managing editor, I was a managing editor. managing editor, you know, Babylon B, like seven to eight jokes a day, seven to eight photoshop, seven to eight articles. Those were all the goals. Yeah. That was the goal. Yeah. And it was a blast. You know, it's fun. My sarcasm is kind of my love language, you know, and I just got to be sarcastic for lily. And so, you know, and then the big moment came whenever that was 2021, 2022 when we got kicked off at Twitter. Yep. For I wrote a joke. So this is I had like this little accountability setup with Kyle Mann and the owner, Seth Dylan. Uh-huh. Because I was always like a, you know, and if you follow me on Twitter, you know, this I like to make people mad, you know, I was always coming up with headlines that made people mad. Yeah. And so they were, they kind of set this thing up where like, Joel, if you're about to publish something that is going to make people mad, please just run it by this. Prears. Yeah. And so, uh, that one morning, they were both out, uh, and unavailable. And so I just published this thing, misgendering Admiral Rachel Avine. Yeah. And, uh, and, you know, you know, the rest, you know, yep. So, uh, and so that tweet, um, with viral and then it got shut down. And yeah. And then your account got the Babylon B's account got suspended. Yes. And, and then Seth, um, they asked, basically Twitter asked Seth to apologize. Yeah. Or be on video. They sent you a like this letter and they said, um, it's not what I mean. We will give you your account back, but you have to check this box of affirming that you've participated in harmful hate speech. You know, like, so not only do you have to stop doing it, but you have to bend the knee and affirm our worldview. And Seth was like, no, we're not doing that. God bless him. I don't know if I would have had the courage to do that in his position. You know, what he had employees looking to money. It's money. It's money. It's money. It's not. This is all livelihood. And he risked it all. Yeah. And, um, you know, so we were off it. Yeah. It buys the beat. Well, it's X off that. So it, it, one, this was on my birthday. Um, my wife and I went out for a nice dinner and it's like 10 o'clock or almost 10 o'clock we're driving home. And Kyle calls me up and says, Hey, can you go on, you know, Fox news for me? I have a Fox news hit. Can you go on for me? Because Elon Musk is about to call me on my cell. Yeah. And, uh, and, and I was like, Fox or Elon? Yeah. It's like, so I got the Fox. You got the second. It's not be seconds. I actually, I said something about transgendarism that got me a hit piece written in media matters the next day. So that was fun. But, but he got to talk to Elon Musk and, and it was like a two and a half hour conversation. Elon Musk talked about a frustrated. He was with, with wokeness and everything. Well, you know, and that was kind of the whole beginning of, you know, Elon, buying, you don't say buying Twitter, Twitter, Hostel take out over now X. Yeah. And, you know, saving free speech in the West for another, at least another few years. Yeah. You know, right. And so I mean, fast forward now, how did you become friends Jeremy and then leave the Babylon B, which is, you know, similar. I like Kyle. I know Kyle for, I knew Kyle before I knew you. Yeah. Um, and Kyle's actually the guy that have always had, uh, at least some, um, some sort of, I'm not right. You know, I'm just, you know, these were old, are, it's like your friends, but you know, I was like, you taxi, you know, yeah, yeah. I've met Kyle, maybe once I think. Yeah. You know, um, but I've known him since I would say, I'm a forecoded. Oh, yeah. But anyways, um, and then, so I mean, it always seemed like, I mean, that'd be fun place to work. It seems like Kyle's great. Yeah. So I seemed like good dude. I've, interacted with Seth never, never met him in person. Um, but uh, you decide to go with Jeremy. Yeah. To help him go into this new venture. How does you kind of meet Jeremy? How'd you kind of get into that? And why'd you take the lead? Um, I had never met Jeremy before. We had corresponded just over the internet a couple times. Um, but, you know, I had always admired him and, you know, for what he'd built at the daily wire. And like I told you, kind of his story and daily wire back stage, his was the little spark that kind of got me going. Yep. So I owe that to him. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, after seven years at the B, um, I loved it. Um, but I was joked out, man. Like I was, yeah, I was like, I don't have to give it my best. I love slapped out. As a big eight jokes a day for seven years. And then it's like, I, you know, how many more, uh, like, man identifies as someone else, you know, you know, when you come up with, um, yeah. And I was just ready for something else. Like I just, and, and Seth could, you know, Seth could sense it. I'd been kind of looking for, for the year prior. Okay. Um, and, and if you follow me on Twitter, you kind of, you, you, you see a different side of me. You know, I, I stopped getting, you stopped being, uh, you started getting more serious. Yeah. You started getting more critical. Yeah. Um, I would say culturally critical, not critical. I'm like, uh, yeah. You start criticizing and, and analyzing. Yeah. Yeah. And people were always shocked because, you know, they've volume expecting me to be the jovial babble and big guy. And it's like, what, this guy's deadly serious, you know, why is he so, well, I got paid, you know, to be funny for eight hours a day. And I would, to kick back, I would be really serious. Yeah. Um, have you to let loose? Yeah. So, you know, the problem with, with satire and, and comedy is you have to stay in character. Um, you know, the B has to be its own voice. Yep. And they're, they're, they're came a point where like my face was out there. I had a reputation for being this thing, but it was also kind of like associated with the B. And anytime, I would say something people would take that as this is the opinion of the babble on B. And, uh, that just kind of kills the comedy because the B is the voice of the B or the character of the B is kind of like this idiot in the room that is, you know, just, uh, seriously reporting the news and clown world, you know, without a shred of, of irony or wink at the camera. Um, and so, I think in, in, you know, Seth feels the same way to, you know, if we could go back, uh, you know, to 2019, 2017 and do it over again, we would have probably required everyone who works with the B, including Seth to be anonymous. Like, yeah, let the B be its own. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. And so it got to the point where it's like Joel Barry is this personality, you know, and people are wanting to know his opinion and it just kind of became this, this weird dissonance in it. Yeah. And I knew that that was hurting the comedy. And I was like, you could, you could be yourself yeah, because it was taken away from babble on B. Yeah. To have a, yeah, yeah. And it's like, I kind of had to like, okay, I had to pick a lane, you know, and I was, I was like, okay, I, I was in the slain for a while. Let's, let's try something new. And at one point Jeremy called me up and say, hey, I'm starting this podcast. I need a writer, you know, can't offer anything for sure right now, just maybe part time writing. Yeah. Would you be interested? I said, yeah, it might be interested. And he's like, cool, fly out tomorrow morning. You know, what like Thursday, you want me to fly like Friday morning tomorrow? Yeah, come out. Okay. You know, so I flew down to Tennessee. We spent a few weeks together and wrote and it went really well. Who's fun? You know, I think Jeremy and I shared similar sensibilities about things we think in a very similar way. And so when you're spending March 2025, or is that like that? No, that's this year. March of this of 2020. It's like, so we sit this. Yeah, okay, because that's this one year in D.A. up thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, and he started it. He never wanted to be a podcaster really. He could have done it anytime while he was at the Bay, Lwire. Right. And he didn't want to. He's a, he's a visionary, as a businessman. He's very good at what he does. But while he was kind of tied up, you know, legally, this is what he could do. So it was like, I can't do nothing. I'm going to do something. What's going to come of the pie, like as the business grows, what's going to become of the podcast? I don't know. But right now, it's really fun. Yeah. And I'm really enjoying it. Okay. So now you're the executive producer. I mean, what label would you put yourself with what you're doing? Jeremy producer writer. Okay. Everything else that needs to be done. We're kind of a small team. Yeah, sure. He's a, and you moved to Tennessee because of this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a Tennessee area. Franklin or Martin Franklin, the national area. Yeah. That was a, that was a big deal. It would whole-literally families, they're children and all that. Yeah. My wife born and raised in Ohio. I mean, born and raised in Ohio, our whole family is there. So it was tough to move. Yeah. And you know, but sometimes you kind of, you have to take your risk. You have to pick up and go where the opportunity is and and and and hoping God's protection for your family and and leave rest in there. So, you know, I remember when I started Cross Blotwick with Toby and Knox in 2016, I remember first wave podcasting kind of really started in 2008 or nine kind of because iPhone came around and then, you know, the podcasting shortly after that. And so there was this first wave podcasting. I think 2015, 2016, when we came in, that was kind of like a second wave, meaning that there was significant growth basically. Just happening and you kind of just jump on the wave a little bit. And, and of course, Davey Wires started in 2015. As we're just talking with Jamie about and then, you know, that second wave that we kind of jumped on, our show launched September 2016, two months before Trump got elected. Oh yeah. Super. Very close to the battle. That one be started. I want to say March of 2016. Yeah. Yeah. Because Adam was doing his website before that. Yeah. Interned into Babylon B. Yeah. And because I've found Adam and follow that him in his first his webtoons. They have the way. And what was interesting about like particularly what we were doing. Generally, this is one of the reasons why I started Cross Palatek was because I grew up in the church. I grew up in Texas was in New Mexico for a little bit. California, Oregon, Colorado. And now I know. And I grew up in a church setting. God was kind. Like the church was good to me. You know, but at the same time, like the church left me so incapable of bringing the Bible into cultural conflict. Not even cultural conflict for helping me apply the Bible to culture, apply the Bible to politics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of, you know, basically they all fate, they separate your faith and politics. The Terry. Yeah. Much part of our generation to go open the church. Yeah. And so I came here. I started getting both the College of Anzalism or the College of Campus. And like dude, college was DEI woke back. Oh yeah. People don't realize how long it's been going on on the campuses. I mean decades and decades. And then it just metastasized so quick. Well, and then COVID in Zoom. That's a lot, right? Yeah. Classroom. So we had this. So I had this. And I remember being on a college campus at first start off in California playing ball down there. And like like politics and culture and like, you know, everyone had an opinion except for Christians weren't allowed to have a opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone was allowed to talk about politics. Everyone was allowed to, you know, except for Christians can bring their faith into politics. And I remember that happening as um, um, uh, in California now here. And I get on a college campus here where I really got involved in called van Zalism. And we had Vody Bachum out to do an event on why gay is not the new black. And we were called racist. Vody was called racist for coming to this white north side of high college to tell him it's like, what does race even need at this point? It's like, you think it that way. Pastor Wilson did this event on a titled, uh, planned parenthood in the racism, Margaret Singer. That's great. And it was a great, I mean, it's 2003. I think it was or for something. It's cutting edge back then. Yeah. And now liberals believe that Margaret Singer's a racist and they're happy to. Yeah. Even tip their hats to the racism, Margaret Singer, you know, um, but not then we were called racist and we were called haters and limitators for yeah, for doing that event. But I, but I just remember like my faith lighting with culture right in front of me, University campus and the church telling me either explicitly or inexplicitly for 20 years that your faith can't mix with politics. Yeah. And so that that was kind of the background of like, you know, coming here and Pastor Wilson's been a great encouragement and them, you know, you know, there's two things that have two baseline things when I first got here that he was preaching from the pulpit. Like, first of all, don't have any problem Bible verses. Like, do believe it? Yeah. Now try to learn it. You don't, you have to understand it all. Yeah. No. Just don't have any problem. Don't have any problem in the Bible. Um, you know, it doesn't mean you don't study it and try to understand the art, parades and all that stuff. Um, and then the second thing was basically kind of our mantra out of Moscow, all of Christ for all life. Like, yeah. Bible plays every year of life and there's no place where, you know, Abraham Kuiper said there's no square inch that doesn't apply and that Jesus is not Lord only man. Yeah. And so in 2016, um, what was funny was, um, when 2015 happened, I was starting to research like, uh, I was working on economic firm. Uh-huh. And I was thinking about, like, okay, I looked at my church and I was like, what is no one doing that I could maybe do? And, you know, Pastor Wilson writes books. We got sermons and we got blogs and we got, you know, can't impress them. All these things and no one was podcasting in our community, but at, at that time, it's like, well, I can start podcasting my mom's basement. Yeah. You know, and that, the, just the beauty of like the platform and what it could do without any gay keepers. Yep. And everything. So that's, and so I remember, uh, tuning in to Ben Shapiro and I was like, oh, this guy's doing easy, good example. Yeah. Of what, of an interesting podcast that I'll listen to. Apology, I don't know, apology. Apology. Yeah. Yeah. After I met after I met those guys, great. Yeah. Yeah. Still friends to this day. Um, so there's a couple of examples. I was like, I was like, this can be done well. And it actually is something I want to listen to. Yeah. Uh, and so, I remember when we launched cross-politik, like, it took off because, uh, I think, I think one of the reasons was because so many Christians were looking for, um, they were thirsty for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Politics of faith. Yeah. Well, and it's not even, I don't even like saying it in that terms because it's, it, all it is is being salt and light. Yeah. That's all it is. Like why have Christians been denied permission to be salt and light in their own country? Mix of their own. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Like, uh, not only that, but over the last 20 years, we've seen politics encroach in more and more and more areas of our life. And as a result, these above the fray pastors now have fewer and fewer things that they can talk about, then pertain to the lives of their congregation. And, and what are these political questions anyway? I mean, like, the, you know, transgenderism and homosexuality and all this stuff are not political questions at all. They're like at a base level, like asking what is man and what are we for? And where do we come from? I mean, these are all theological questions. No. So the idea that, you know, we're not, we're not, uh, we didn't separate the church from politics. We separated the church from the people who needed to hear the gospel. You know, and, and, uh, Charlie Kirk kind of proved that right now where we're at in our culture, the politics has become the most powerful on ramp to the gospel to evangelism to evangelism. No, sorry. I mean, he, he, he became like the next Billy Graham. Yeah. And he did it by way of politics. Yeah. That's right. That's anything like, but, you know, I think part of what I see God might be, one of the things I think God is doing actually is, um, trying to, uh, double down, teach us, remind us what it means to be humane. Yeah. So all the issues where, you know, we were just joking about AI over there real quick. I think everything that's going on is what it means to be human. And fundamentally, that means you're creating the image of God. Yeah. And so the whole argument over transgenerism, feminism, you know, all these hot topics is really an argument over what it means to be created in the image of God and it's, yes, yes. Can you go give me some water over there? There's a glass where I was sitting. Water, you want water? I'm good. I'm good. I'm, I'm, I'm out. Yeah. I think, I think that's part of, it's like a God's like pulling out the rug from under secular culture because there's no foundation there anyways. Yeah. And, and now it's like, and it's like the church was not prepared to catch all the people who was crawling. That's it. You know, and so, and so many churches still aren't. And it's, it's, it's in raging. And in my first, um, kind of my first like, you know, realization moment, um, was what kind of when I got involved in, um, the pro-life movement. Oh, yeah. Um, yeah. I was doing sidewalk. Yeah. Advocacy and, um, counseling, you know, just counseling. There's a, there was a, there was a, an abortion clinic there where I lived. That was just, it was the scumiest, just most disgusting place. You've all, you wouldn't buy a sandwich at this place, but like they would march women in, day in and day out. And, uh, you might be saying, like, what city, what are you? Toledo, Ohio. The place was called Capitol Care Network. Yeah. Um, and, uh, you know, you have your, you have your, uh, clinic escorts. And of course, you know, all dressed in rainbows and, you know, screaming at you playing just filthy music, you know, you know, um, the most, the most, uh, the clearest, uh, bit of spirit, like the clearest I've ever seen, spiritual warfare in real world. I mean, you see, like it's like you're, you're literally white. Fasten behind those doors life over here. Death in demons versus life in new and hope. Um, and, uh, to get the church to be involved in any of it was like pulling teeth. It's credible. Yeah. Pulling teeth. The pastors don't want to talk about it. No. The pastors don't want to get involved in it. Um, and, and, and the, the, the excuse was always, well, it's politics. It's, you know, well, I know it's not. People are being, babies are being killed. It's not politics. And so, I mean, I know I'm preaching to the choir. You know all this, but, um, so that was kind of my, that was my, well, I was on my way. It's political. Yes. Jesus is political. Yeah. It's just, it's, it's like, try to put distinctions in these categories where we've been duped. Yeah. You know, the church is believed that secularism can be neutral. Yeah. Um, the churches believe that there can be a distinction between faith and politics, you know, right? We've been discipled in that way. And it's been, been devastating. Yeah. I, you know, I, um, I, I think there's, I think that's changing. And that, and that's been encouraging to see, you know, I think in the wake of Charlie, uh, we've seen a lot of, a lot of good signs of the church waking up. Um, but you know, there's a lot more to do. So like, how do you view the fight for America? Just talk big 50,000 foot view right now. How do you view the fight for America? Um, you know, what, what should conservators, Christians be doing? What, what battles are you think most important right now? Um, yeah, I kind of talk big picture. Well, um, I think the thing that everyone needs to be doing is just what they can do. Um, and I, I, I can't claim to know, um, where the battle is or where, or, or how it's going to turn out. Um, but I, I think that, you know, it's almost like, I think, I almost take the Jordan Peterson approach to it. The, you know, he always talks about make your bed. Yeah. Well, no, you know, what's your, what's your own little circle of influence start with you? Start with you. Yeah. Move on to your kids and your wife and then your community and, and beyond that. Um, 95% of Christians aren't even doing that. Yeah. So like start there and fix that. Um, you know, there are, there is, there are people clamoring on all sides, the left and all 55 factions of the right right now, um, for a top down government magic bullet, no, solutions and two R problems that will just make everything, about make all the bad go away. Um, because we want the quick fix and we don't want the long, you know, multi decade slow steady grind of just simple faithful obedience to God and evangelism. You know, we want a Christian nation. We need Christians. No. Um, we need more Christians. We need to have more Christians and we need to, um, to proselytize more Christians. And so, um, I think that's the, that's the place to start and it's, it's the hardest place to start. So like the Moscow project, um, I'd agree if you, you know, start with yourself, repentance, yeah, I'm going to say, but there's, you know, there's, there's another side to it. You know, we always talk about the law being a teacher, you know, we saw what happened when Obergothel was decided how public opinion on game marriage completely flipped. Because, because our laws and our leaders, um, reformed our moral imagination through through a, a, a, a, a, a, a, one job. Yeah, yeah, judges. Yeah. It was judge. It was judge was in laws. Um, and so, you know, I, I think that it's, it's absolutely important to, to, to retake, um, culture, but also retake public office to write good laws, to have, uh, godly Christians in the places of leadership. Um, you know, it's, but, how, how central is the church in this reclaiming of, of Christian America? Um, well, that's, that's the only way it's going to happen. I, I mean, I am, I, I guess I'm, you could say I'm kind of blackpilled on, uh, you know, uh, a political solution to all this. Um, what do you mean by that? Sometimes you will throw black clothes. Yeah, black. Um, you know, I, I, I have little hope in, um, in, in revival coming from the top down or the, or from a changing government. Um, you know, and I have little hope in our ability to manufacture some sort of a revival. Um, I, I hope, and I pray for, uh, for a supernatural, uh, you know, like we need another great awakening. We've had one we've had to, we need a third or fourth one, you know, um, and, um, you know, we need an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. You know, one thing, you know, I, I'm, I'm kind of, uh, ambivalent about eschatology. I grew up in, uh, the dispensationalist, uh, you know, um, pre-millennial, see, I can't even get the terms right. Seven-year tribulation, you know, left behind ism, you know, um, you know, Nate wrote a book called Right Behind. Big and fun to left behind. That's, that's fantastic. He's, I love it. Yeah. Um, but, you know, the perfectly encapsulated by good old Uncle John MacArthur, who we love when he said we lose down here. Yeah, we lose, we lose down here. Also, he ended his life on, or trying to win down. Yes. He like, he, it was so great to see how he ended versus some of those comments that he said. And that's the weird thing about, about, you know, a lot of this stuff is, you know, he, yes, he had this theology that you, you would think would lead to some kind of anemic ineffective Christianity. And he was the opposite. You know, and you could, you could also say that about Calvinist, you know, like, you believe that God does all the work. Why do you bother evangelism? You know, evangelizing yet, you see all these Calvinists evangelizing, you know, um, but, um, I, uh, you know, I, after college and I kind of had this, I got it really into Mark Driscoll. You know, I kind of had this like reformed, uh, cage stage Calvinist, you know, phase that I went through. Um, and one thing that I really appreciated about kind of the post-millennial mindset, um, was the, was how optimistic it was. Yeah. You know, and then it actually bore fruit. You know, that Jesus said by their fruits, you shall know them and, um, people who had that eschatology in, from what I noticed, um, were optimistic and they were actually living as if all this matters. You know, and that as if Christ really is on the throne and that we can retake culture, we can retake a nation. Um, don't know if that's true or not, but I like the fruit, you know, um, and, you know, so I think the positivity, yeah, yeah. And you know, when I get in these discussions with my friends who are, you know, adamantly pre-male or all-mill, you know, all-mill, and then there's post-mill, and then some people weird, and they're just going to pay it out kind of. Yeah, that's, that's more me. I know it's a cop out, but I, um, that's kind of wherever I've arrived here. But the thing I, I just want us to agree on is Jesus' king here and now on earth. Yeah. I just as he is in heaven. Yeah. And if we can agree on that, I mean, honestly, if we agree on that, I think you're basically post-pulled at that point, because he believed Jesus' king down here, and if he's king down here, we know he's a victorious king. He's not a loser king. Yeah. He saves the world. He saves Christians from sin. He ends up saving the whole world, you know, kind of thing. Yes. Um, on earth, as it is in heaven, we pray for that. Yes. Every Sunday and towards prayer. And, but like, there's just this, how can you pray that? How can you pray on earth as it is in heaven? And then, and then, and then, and then say, Christians should be involved in politics. Yeah. Exactly. That's literally like on earth as it is in heaven is literally a call for us to be in politics. I don't see how any other way to do it. For Jesus to be a political Jesus, savior of politics. I don't believe, you know, Doug, Doug says that, uh, you know, we don't believe politics are savior, but we believe Jesus is going to say politics. Yeah. And, and it just, and I think because I do think the pre-mill, um, eschatology has had a negative impact on church culture. Yeah. Because generally speaking, um, it basically says that, you know, um, Jesus is, you're gonna, you're gonna lead this earth. You know, there's gonna be a big fight. You know, we're gonna lose down here. You know what, though, you know, I, I will say about that group. I mean, I grew up in a, uh, you know, pre-mill church Baptist, you know, independent fundamental KJV only church. Mm-hmm. Man, we went soul winning twice a week. Yeah. Yeah. Door to door. Like, uh, evangelism. You know, I don't know any churches that do, they still do that anymore. Yeah. But there was, you know, even, even then there was that, um, uh, there was that sense that, okay, yeah, we lose down here and it's all gonna burn and blow up. So like we have to save as many as a soul as we can before the end, you know, so like, and if we dance, which like there's some, there's still some drinks there, but the one thing that they do what happened was the big problem. I gave it a culture. Not, not just they gave it a culture, but they went and build institutions. Yeah. Because that's a long term project. Yeah. And we need to win as many souls we can before the earth ends. Yeah. And I, you know, I mean, how many times is how Lindsey predicted that the world in, you know, I think. Yeah. And so I think the short term thinking that came from the pre-mill theology, not the vandalism, but the short term thinking, I think it's had such a, it's prohibited the church and taking the church out of the center of the conversation. Yeah. Of where it should have been politics and all that stuff. Yeah. That's why it goes back to like, is Jesus King? Oh, it's just start there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm, I'm very, you know, I'm very wishy-washy when it comes to like I said, eschatology denominations, you know, I think that God has different uses for different denominations in their time. You know, I think we're in a time now where there's is, is such a need for, you know, more post-millennial thinking, maybe more intentionality and more optimism. And so God is raising that, that part of the body of the church up, you know what I mean? And times can change and maybe there will be another, you know, another, era that we enter where another part of the body of Christ is, is more needed in that time. But yeah, no, you know, talking about like institutions, I think, you know, you guys will catch the show earlier. There'd be another show coming out with Jeremy Boying and Nate where we're talking about institutions and stuff. We're gonna get too far down the line as I wanted to, but, you know, I do think we need to be building institutions. We need to be building churches, Christian schools, businesses. That's basic play. Hospitals. Then, well hospitals, include hospital, used to be Christian institutions. Yeah, the Syrians, the Methodists, they have been completely hollowed out and they have been taken over by, by Godless, Darwinus, Euthanasia, you know, like it is, it's a horror show. And one of my big soap boxes right now is churches in addition to building Christian schools need to start thinking about building their own healthcare systems for their members. And that's happening. You got like Samaritan ministries. You got a deep DPS, what's it called? Basically, the family doctor offices that are off the insurance. That's the case. You have to be out of the insurance world. Yeah, the insurance world. So DPS, what's it like? Dr. Dr. Dr. Primary Care. Yeah, yeah. DPC. Dr. Primary Care institutions. That's happening. That's growing like crazy. You have surgery centers. So the guy in Oklahoma, you know, the guy in Oklahoma, I forget his name, he's the one that really started it. And he fought Oklahoma, state of Oklahoma and the hospital there. But basically, he's the first surgery center to start putting pricing on his own website. Cousin, Chris, Christian, dude, that's cool. And he got in the fight with hospitals. Did they start to lose money then? Yeah. Because he's like, oh, he come to my place, it's 5,000 dollars for a knee surgery, whatever, I'm making it up a little bit. But that's what he did. And so he started winning. And then hospitals tried to sue them to shut them down. He won. And they stayed at Oklahoma. And so we got a drug. Because he got any more of that, we got a surgical center here. Do you really? We just, my friend started it two years ago now. That's fantastic. So see you guys showing everyone how it's done. Yeah. That's awesome. So the surgical centers, I think are very strategic and going around a while. Yes. We have Canadians that come down to go to our surgical centers. And also, again, what a, what a avenue for the gospel to, you know, you're meeting people's needs in a very, very intimate way, you know, and wait a minute. It's cost-effective way. Yeah. It's surgical center to me, you know, for the ibuprofen, for the painkiller, for the knee surgery, whatever, it's exmenus dollars. They haven't there, you know, it was pretty, pretty funny. So I think building institutions is good. But I also think how we think about building those institutions. What I mean by that is a lot of people, when we build institutions, they start. We use the terms in our community, I'm a cruise ship. So I think of chants of cruise ships, you know, it's like you build the new Saint New Jersey College of cruise ship and you just want to make sure I was taking care of it. Don't. Versus building like a pirate ship. Like they're there to fight, and they might go down in the fight. But that's how we should be thinking about it in a way that like, hey, were institutions should be there for the battle? Yes. And not there for the memory or legacy of Pastor Wilson or whatever. And not to create a little closed-off bubble, hunter wear. Everyone can just be sheltered and closed off from the rest of the world. Yeah. So that's where I take over. So that's why I think a lot of people wondered about some of the calculations that we made here in Moscow because like, I mean, you know, our fight life, East Gummarts, that's a that's a that's a pirate ship. Like we make decisions about that conference and people wondering why. Yeah. You know, why you do this or or can't impress or whatever is because like we look at it like is a as a pirate ship for God's glory. Yeah. And you know, someday, you know, like my businesses that I have going on, I've got a number of businesses I've been working. And if my kids grow up to faithfully handle them and then and then in their faithfulness, take a risk where it might take down the pirate ship, but they're being faithful in the risk. Oh, yes. And God bless it. Absolutely. You know, yeah. So I don't I don't want whatever I'm building to become a cruise ship for my kids that they're just cheating in the paint on and you know, trying to keep the memory of legacy of whatever dad did build and everything. I want them to have the freedom to like be faithful and can take better and bigger risk than me. Absolutely. So that, I mean, you know, they get six kids. I mean, having kids change everything about it does. How you think about yeah, even our culture and everything. I mean, I want my kids to grow up to be better Christians than me. I want my kids to grow up to be a better businessman than me. It's begun like my sole reason for saving money. You know, like, you know, like leaving a legacy behind and you're buying an RV. You're saving for kids. Yeah. Yeah. So how like this goes back to my question earlier, because I think so much is lacking here. And I think that I love the church, but I also in by by small sea church nationwide church, kind of I love the church. I love the Baptist. I love the Presbyterian. But the church in the last 40 years of my life did not disciple me in how to apply the Bible everywhere. The church did not, um, uh, wasn't involved in the center of culture like it should have been. It's supposed to be a lot on the hill salt. Yes, salt, savory salt, all that stuff. But I also think like, like, there's a lot of, I'd say, new Christian right, the, the, um, you know, even like, like, uh, conceptual James and a lot, you know, there's a lot of movements out there. Yeah. Where it's like, they think they need to do all this stuff in the church, the last part of the solution. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, I church worship is central, church is central to how God changes cultures in society. Yes. And I don't think that gets enough oxygen in our, in our, in our, and I think part of it is because like, like we just want material solutions versus kind of going through God's way in our way. Yeah. It's, well, it's, it's, it's fleshly thinking. No, it's living as if, uh, God doesn't exist. You know, the, everything about, kingdom work and, uh, is counterintuitive. That, you know, like, um, it, it, it, it shouldn't work if you look at it in, from just the materialistic man's perspective way. You know, um, but we, we, we, but God is real. We, we serve a God who does miracles. And, um, he has told us how, how he works in the world and that's through his church. So just follow, follow the instructions. Yeah. Yeah. Just, just follow his orders, follow his orders, trust him. You know, that's, that's, that's why he, uh, he tells us that those who enter the kingdom have to become like little children. You have to trust in a childlike way, you know, that just do what your dad says and, cause we're right away. And it's really fun. Let me, let me, let me end the interview here with this, um, so as you left the Babylon bee, you've been more vocal on Twitter. With your views and it's not about jokes or so forth. Yeah. Um, and I, like, uh, I follow you on Twitter. X, I, I don't think I would be able to call you straight up X. I know. I, it's such a weird datterty. I have to do rhetorically. Um, but you tweeted about a burrito. Yeah. And I've, I like, I've lightly followed the burrito controversy. But bring me it like seriously, like, what happened? Yeah. Some sort of cost of burrito happened. If people got mad and then you tweeted about it and people got mad or whatever. Yeah. Like bring me into the beginning of this whole burrito thing before you even tweeted about the brewers. Okay. So Andrew Colvette, who's with turning point USA, okay. I was relaying a, he was at a college event. You know, they always get questions from the audience at these campuses. And, um, the big thing that young people are facing right now is affordability. Is everything is so expensive. Uh, you know, gas to rent. Yes. Yeah. Food groceries. You know, uh, it's, uh, it's become untenable, um, for a lot of, especially young people. Um, and one of the comments that the students made was that a burrito shouldn't be $20. No. Um, and I, I, I sympathize with a lot of the younger generation. One, because you think about during COVID, we locked them there and they're out homes for two years and all they could eat was door dash. So I think a lot of these young people, that's just, they think that's just how you eat is you can door dash something. And, um, uh, so, you know, I'm, I'm a bit of a, I like to poke the bear and I have this cantankerous personality online sometimes. But, you know, this kid, this poor kid, you know, uh, Andrew Colvett's relaying this, this store, British and be $20. Well, my wife had just made burritos the night before. This is just like completely coincidental. I'd come home late. She kind of thrown this dinner together. Yeah. You know, very simple. You know, you got ground beef and seasoning and refried beans, cheese, sour cream, tortillas and, you know, some salsa, you know, delicious. If you have six kids, you know, homemade bread, you get, sorry, it's fantastic. Thank you, Jesus. You know, um, she shops at all. The, all these really cheap, it costs a little less than $20. So I, I made the comment that, you know, my wife made burritos for her whole family for less than $20. I think this is more of an, I don't, I don't know how to cook problem. You know, um, I've never, I've never been on the receiving end of more outrage for anything. I've said some pretty crazy things. I mean, this, made people really, really mad. Wow. You know, out of touch and sensitive cruel, um, you know, one, one, another, you know, a guy with the blaze said that I want young people dead. Um, uh, was that a magnet? A magnet. I said, I want young men dead. Come on. I need to make it right with that guy. We're, we're just, we're oil and water. Aron and I, um, uh, so anyway, that, that kicked off a whole discussion, you know, um, about affordability and what the, the crack political response to it is because as a poll, you know, I'm not a political voice. I'm treated as one. Oftentimes the, it's not, you don't want to see amount of touches of politician. Yeah. You want to be in tune with what people are going through. My whole message, um, and this is a message that Jeremy boring shares too is, is I'm always trying to focus people's attention on their own agency. Yeah. You know, that, um, what can you do to me? What's, what can we do? Whatever, you know, life sucks. Life is suffering. Uh, the entire world is set against you. You know, um, I, I said the same thing in 2020 when we were going through, you know, BLM and COVID and, um, we elected a corpse as a president. Um, you know, but did we know? Yeah. Right? Or, or, or maybe not. You know, um, yeah, maybe the elections are rigged and we'll never, and we completely lost our country. My message was always still like, listen, like in this world, you will have trouble. Jesus says, take heart. I have overcome the world. So place your hope in him. You know, be anxious for nothing. But, uh, but with supplication and things giving, let your request be made to God and the peace of God with search passes all understanding, well, guard your hearts and minds. And then, you know, there are things that you can control, you know, like you can budget. You, you can be responsible. You can save and, and, uh, you know, and I've lived that. I've never been a rich person. You know, we've, we've struggled. We've all struggled. And so I'm always trying to encourage people in that sense. But, you know, online, it's, it's, it can be a brutal, uh, brutal, is there a careful about the Brito? Tweeting my Brito. If anyone wants my burrito recipe, I will give you my $20, eight people burrito recipe at all. It's, it's delicious. No, no, it's all, it's all the spices you guys, you gotta know the right spice combination. It's perfect. Yeah, that's great, man. Thank you for going across Baltimore. One minute. Appreciate you guys. Make sure you guys share the show and, um, uh, we'll see you guys next week. Thank you.