Latest / Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler / Psychedelics and Drug Use with Ethan Nadelmann

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Psychedelics and Drug Use with Ethan Nadelmann · Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler

0:00
Speaker 1: Hi everybody. While I'm taking the month of September off
0:03
Speaker 1: of doing stand up, I return on October one to
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Speaker 1: complete my Vaccinated and Horny Tour. October, November, and December,
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Speaker 1: I have new dates up. I kick it off in Saratoga, California,
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Speaker 1: and I'm coming to all parts of California, Long Beach,
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Speaker 1: Baker's Field. I'm going to Niagara Falls, Tucson, Arizona, Colorado, Minneapolis,
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Speaker 1: San Diego, Reading Pennsylvania, and Baltimore, Maryland, just to name
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Speaker 1: a few. There's also some Floridian dates in there, since
0:31
Speaker 1: this will be my last year that I'm able to
0:33
Speaker 1: go inside the state of Florida. So check out Chelsea
0:36
Speaker 1: Handler dot com for more stand up dates for my
0:38
Speaker 1: Vaccinated in Horny Tour. These are my last dates. Hi, Catherine,
0:43
Speaker 1: how are you? I'm so good. I'm here in l
0:46
Speaker 1: A and it's going to be a hundred and four
0:47
Speaker 1: this weekend. I left l A because I don't like
0:50
Speaker 1: that kind of temperature, and but I'm gonna see you
0:53
Speaker 1: in my orcas soon. Catherine and I are going on
0:55
Speaker 1: vacation together with Brad. We're going to become a throople.
0:58
Speaker 1: We're gonna open up their related ship. That wouldn't be weird.
1:03
Speaker 1: You're welcome in. We're really good at snuggling and after care.
1:07
Speaker 1: I was just at a lunch. I'm in New York
1:08
Speaker 1: City this week because I'm here to watch the US
1:10
Speaker 1: Open because I wanted to watch Serena play for the
1:12
Speaker 1: last time. So I went to the first night where
1:14
Speaker 1: she fucking won and it was so special. I just
1:18
Speaker 1: love that energy. I love watching people win. Yes, she
1:21
Speaker 1: came out in like a glittery wrote like cape, like
1:24
Speaker 1: a queen. Yeah, she had six layers to signify all
1:28
Speaker 1: of the I guess six US Opens. She had one,
1:31
Speaker 1: and she played this girl whose name, God, that's terrible,
1:35
Speaker 1: I can't remember. But the girl was so good. It's
1:38
Speaker 1: so funny to watch Serena play because, like her opponents
1:41
Speaker 1: are always just running back and forth with such athleticism,
1:44
Speaker 1: and Serena just stands there. She's just like here, I'll
1:46
Speaker 1: return the ball from over here, like I'm not running anywhere.
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Speaker 1: It's pretty amazing to watch her play. She's such a
1:52
Speaker 1: she's a beast. It's always amazing to see somebody who's
1:55
Speaker 1: just at the top of their game, whether it's sports,
1:57
Speaker 1: whether it's comedy, whether it's whatever it is. It's so
2:00
Speaker 1: fascinating to watch somebody who's at the top of her Yeah, yeah,
2:03
Speaker 1: I love it. I love the whole vibe of like tennis,
2:05
Speaker 1: Grand Slams, Like I've been to Wimbledon. I think I've been.
2:08
Speaker 1: I think that's probably it. Wimbledon and the U s
2:10
Speaker 1: Open I've been to. But it's just such a vibe,
2:13
Speaker 1: you know, like you can drink, you watch sports like
2:16
Speaker 1: it's up close. You can see everything, no matter where
2:18
Speaker 1: you're sitting in the stadium, you're just watching the court.
2:21
Speaker 1: You know. It's not like a concert. We have to
2:22
Speaker 1: watch on one of these big screens. And the US
2:25
Speaker 1: Open is the biggest one out of the Grand Slams.
2:27
Speaker 1: It's it holds the most seats and so it's massive,
2:30
Speaker 1: and it's just it's. Yeah, my best friend Bitchy, she's
2:35
Speaker 1: my sports friends. She knows, she's always got in roads
2:37
Speaker 1: to any sporting event, so we always get hooked up.
2:40
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm having a great time and I'm and
2:43
Speaker 1: then I'm going to see you in my Orca. Yeah.
2:45
Speaker 1: And you've been saying all kinds of friends this week,
2:47
Speaker 1: I know, because we're making plans last week. Oh my God,
2:50
Speaker 1: I know, I'm not looking at my calendar. I'm like, fuck,
2:52
Speaker 1: what the the funk is this? We have a podcast
2:54
Speaker 1: recording it to this interrupts my lunch and mushroom at day.
2:58
Speaker 1: I was so sorry to interrupt. Last night, though, I
3:01
Speaker 1: had the most romantic night by myself. I went to first,
3:04
Speaker 1: I got up and I worked out for two hours
3:07
Speaker 1: because I shot this campaign and I had to really
3:10
Speaker 1: get it together for well one week. That's how I
3:13
Speaker 1: get it together, and then I just went off. Since then,
3:16
Speaker 1: I've gained six pounds and I am just cruising through
3:18
Speaker 1: Manhattan and I'm walking everywhere. Yesterday I met my sister.
3:21
Speaker 1: I walked forty five minutes. I met her for launch,
3:23
Speaker 1: Then my friend Pitchy came. Then I walked all the
3:26
Speaker 1: way back, and then I walked back downtown. I got
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Speaker 1: in seven twenty seven thousand steps yesterday. And my goal
3:34
Speaker 1: is just too. I love New York City for that reason.
3:37
Speaker 1: There's nowhere I mean, I just wish I lived in
3:39
Speaker 1: a city that was walkable, not in Los Angeles. Los
3:42
Speaker 1: Angeles definitely is not. It's barely drivable. Yeah, but where
3:47
Speaker 1: else have you been? You've been all over the place. Oh,
3:49
Speaker 1: my gosh, I just got back from Greece and Vancouver Island.
3:54
Speaker 1: I went from Greece to Vancouver Island. Warmed very cold.
3:57
Speaker 1: It sounds like, yeah, well it wasn't very cold on
4:00
Speaker 1: Vancouver Island. Greece was beautiful. I went to an island
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Speaker 1: called Leftcata, which I've never been to, with a bunch
4:05
Speaker 1: of friends. We just got on a boat every day
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Speaker 1: and went to a different beautiful restaurant and drank white
4:10
Speaker 1: wine and ate Greek salads and fish, and I could
4:14
Speaker 1: not have been happier. I actually was able to protect
4:17
Speaker 1: my face from the sun with this new hat I got,
4:20
Speaker 1: so it looked like a dick, but I like, at
4:22
Speaker 1: least my skin is not burned. And yeah, I was
4:25
Speaker 1: on vacation with lots of different new people and some children,
4:29
Speaker 1: so you know how that goes. Yes, I saw your
4:31
Speaker 1: incest story is with one particular who I think was
4:34
Speaker 1: your favorite. Oh yeah, she's my favorite. The ones who
4:36
Speaker 1: can't really form sentences are my favorites, you know, Like
4:39
Speaker 1: I like when they're beginning to talk but they haven't
4:41
Speaker 1: really gotten the hamstered it. Yeah, that's when they get
4:44
Speaker 1: a full personality. Is when I start to lose issuest. Yeah,
4:50
Speaker 1: the like gibber jabber stage where they'll just like tell
4:53
Speaker 1: you all about their day in total like jabbery English
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Speaker 1: is my favorite. Yeah. I had this four ar old girl, Mia,
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Speaker 1: who was just she was so she was like a
5:03
Speaker 1: seven year old. So it was so funny. I'd be like, Okay,
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Speaker 1: let's play a game where we count all the boats
5:07
Speaker 1: that are moving in the ocean. She's like, that sounds silly.
5:11
Speaker 1: I've got another game. I'm like, oh my god, she said,
5:14
Speaker 1: I don't think so. She was just so funny, just
5:18
Speaker 1: like and this old British like she sounded like an
5:20
Speaker 1: old British man. She sounded like this is doubtfire. I
5:24
Speaker 1: love that traveling with children is another thing. You got
5:27
Speaker 1: us to have your own timeline involved. I just don't
5:33
Speaker 1: understand how people do it. How they have so many
5:35
Speaker 1: children and then they have to pack up their car
5:38
Speaker 1: and they have to put in the baby Bjorn and
5:39
Speaker 1: their cookies and their whatever bottle, all of it. And
5:42
Speaker 1: at every airport all you ever see is parents taking
5:46
Speaker 1: their sippy cups and downing the liquid in the sippy
5:48
Speaker 1: cups because the kids haven't finished it. Like I was
5:51
Speaker 1: at Heathrow on a layover. Oh I was in London too.
5:54
Speaker 1: I was at Heathrow and he throws like the strictest
5:57
Speaker 1: airport in terms of like liquids and fluids. So basically
6:00
Speaker 1: everyone who came through just had to sit there in
6:02
Speaker 1: front of the t s A agent drinking their thermis
6:05
Speaker 1: because no one had, you know, emptied out their thermis.
6:08
Speaker 1: And I'm like, how do people not fucking know about
6:11
Speaker 1: emptying out their thermis at this point? How did they
6:14
Speaker 1: not even doing this for a minute now it's been
6:17
Speaker 1: since yes, Oh my gosh. Yeah, I just don't think
6:23
Speaker 1: I could have a kid and be the sort of
6:25
Speaker 1: mom who like licks their kids pacifier to clean it
6:28
Speaker 1: before giving it to them, or like like parents. Man,
6:31
Speaker 1: I have a lot of respect, but I can't do
6:33
Speaker 1: all that gross stuff. No, no, it's all yeah, it's
6:36
Speaker 1: too much. It's just never ending. And some people make
6:38
Speaker 1: it look easy, and I respect that because it's not easy.
6:42
Speaker 1: Some people with many Nanni's. We have a very special
6:45
Speaker 1: guest today. His name is Ethan Niedelman and he is
6:50
Speaker 1: the former Princeton professor who built a political movement to
6:53
Speaker 1: legalize marijuana, roll back the drug war, and treat drugs
6:57
Speaker 1: as a health issue, not a criminal one. He is
7:00
Speaker 1: now the host of the podcast Psychoactive about all Things Drugs,
7:04
Speaker 1: now in a second season, And obviously I would like
7:07
Speaker 1: to announce to all my customers this disclaimer that I
7:11
Speaker 1: am not a doctor, I play one on a podcast,
7:13
Speaker 1: that I would never ever encourage anybody to do drugs.
7:17
Speaker 1: This isn't medical advice, this is my own personal therapy. Ethan. Hi,
7:22
Speaker 1: it's so nice to have you. Well, it's a pleasure
7:25
Speaker 1: to be on your show, Chelsea. I really appreciate it.
7:27
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you, thanks for being here. And you
7:29
Speaker 1: know you've spoken to Catherine before. Yeah, Hi, Okay, So
7:34
Speaker 1: I know you are a huge proponent of the legalization
7:37
Speaker 1: of marijuana and basically I mean all drug use, right
7:41
Speaker 1: or do you want to get specific about what drugs
7:43
Speaker 1: you are for and what drugs you're against? Well, I mean,
7:46
Speaker 1: let me be very specific. I mean most of my
7:48
Speaker 1: life was about working to legalize marijuana and to end
7:51
Speaker 1: the war on drugs, So that's where and I was
7:54
Speaker 1: never called myself pro marijuana, although my personal life, I'd
7:56
Speaker 1: say marijuana and I have had a great relationship for
7:59
Speaker 1: a very long time. Amen to that. But when it
8:01
Speaker 1: comes to the other drugs, you know, I'm sort of
8:03
Speaker 1: a Merril wine and psychedelic exceptionalist, and that those are
8:06
Speaker 1: the drugs that have been good in my life and
8:07
Speaker 1: the other ones are not so crazy about. But the
8:09
Speaker 1: principle that nobody should be punished for whatever drugs they
8:13
Speaker 1: put in their body if they don't hurt anybody else,
8:14
Speaker 1: I think that's the core principle we have to remember.
8:17
Speaker 1: So that even if you love we love psychology, don't
8:19
Speaker 1: like all the other sorts of things, it doesn't mean
8:21
Speaker 1: that other people should get punished simply for using those things, right, absolutely,
8:26
Speaker 1: And so what are your feeling about other sort of narcotics.
8:28
Speaker 1: I mean, you're into psychedelics, and so I assume that
8:32
Speaker 1: encompasses all of all psychedelics. Psilocybin, Well, you know, I
8:36
Speaker 1: haven't tried all of them yet, right, I mean, you know,
8:39
Speaker 1: mushrooms have been my kind of go to one for
8:41
Speaker 1: a very long time. Ayahuasca has been good. I've done
8:45
Speaker 1: mescaling once or twice. I've tried a few others. I
8:47
Speaker 1: did to ceb m Dama, not really a psychedelic, but
8:50
Speaker 1: that one was very nice in my life. Although it
8:52
Speaker 1: doesn't really work for me anymore. But when it comes
8:55
Speaker 1: to the opioids, I mean no, I just think they're
8:57
Speaker 1: useful for pain and that one needs to be very
8:59
Speaker 1: careful when you're using them. But I do know people
9:02
Speaker 1: who use psyche, you know, who use opioids and have
9:04
Speaker 1: led very successful lives even when using them regularly. So
9:07
Speaker 1: I'm just it's always just very important that we not
9:09
Speaker 1: demonize other people, even for using drugs that are more dangerous,
9:13
Speaker 1: and even like cocaine. Like I've never really liked cocaine
9:16
Speaker 1: that much. Mean for me, like having cocaine it's like
9:19
Speaker 1: drinking too much coffee and having post nasal drip, right,
9:21
Speaker 1: So it's never been a thing for me. I have
9:24
Speaker 1: friends who love cocaine. I've had friends who got in
9:27
Speaker 1: trouble with cocaine. I've had friends who just play with it.
9:29
Speaker 1: So I'm not a big fan. I don't think it
9:31
Speaker 1: brings out the best in people. You know, I wouldn't
9:34
Speaker 1: want people I really care about getting into cocaine too much.
9:37
Speaker 1: But it still means I don't like the law of
9:39
Speaker 1: punishing anybody for using that stuff. So when you said
9:42
Speaker 1: you used M D M A, but it stopped working
9:44
Speaker 1: for you. What do you mean by that, because I've
9:46
Speaker 1: heard that before from people. Well, I'll tell you. I mean,
9:50
Speaker 1: you know, Chelsea, when I first started using early thirties,
9:52
Speaker 1: it was in the context of my divorce. I think
9:55
Speaker 1: it helped us land up on a softer landing. And
9:58
Speaker 1: I've used it in romantic relationships since in my thirties
10:01
Speaker 1: and forties, and it was good with friends and I've
10:04
Speaker 1: been to raise But around I'm now sixty five, around
10:07
Speaker 1: the time I hit my early fifties, I found that
10:09
Speaker 1: the upside started waning and the downside started increasing, and
10:14
Speaker 1: I start having the feeling like my body was telling me,
10:16
Speaker 1: don't put this in you, And so I really miss it.
10:20
Speaker 1: I mean it was. It served a valuable purpose for
10:23
Speaker 1: me in terms, especially in romantic relationships, in terms of
10:25
Speaker 1: being able to deal with issues and have communications and
10:29
Speaker 1: otherwise difficult to do. Yeah, that's true. It is helpful
10:32
Speaker 1: in relationships if you can have conversations, important conversations. Right,
10:37
Speaker 1: Have you used it in that way? No, I haven't.
10:40
Speaker 1: I've only used it, and I mean that's a good
10:42
Speaker 1: idea though I've only used it to like have a
10:44
Speaker 1: good time, you know. M D. M a that is,
10:46
Speaker 1: but no, I haven't. I'd recommend it. I mean, it's
10:49
Speaker 1: just because it gives people the ability both to listen
10:53
Speaker 1: it more deeply than they normally worried. It dissolves the defenses,
10:56
Speaker 1: and also to speak in a way that's more and
10:59
Speaker 1: pathic in a way. And so I think, you know,
11:01
Speaker 1: when it was first kind of when it's uses were
11:03
Speaker 1: first kind of rediscovered the seventies, it was known as
11:06
Speaker 1: the couple's therapy drug, and it was most famous for
11:09
Speaker 1: that type of use. And now when we see it
11:11
Speaker 1: emerging for use with respect to PTSD and things like that,
11:14
Speaker 1: it really has a very valuable role to play. So
11:16
Speaker 1: I strongly encourage it as long as it work well
11:19
Speaker 1: for you. I should also say that I think when
11:21
Speaker 1: it comes to stopping, I know a lot more guys
11:24
Speaker 1: who says it doesn't work for me anymore. Whereas women
11:26
Speaker 1: seem to get this is no no research on this,
11:30
Speaker 1: just impressionistic. Women seem to get more value of it
11:33
Speaker 1: for a longer time. Interesting, And what about tell me
11:36
Speaker 1: a little bit about mescaline. I've never had any experience
11:38
Speaker 1: with mescaline either, I don't think so well, you know,
11:41
Speaker 1: you can get it in the refined version, which is
11:43
Speaker 1: the way I did it. That other two ways is
11:45
Speaker 1: it comes from the peyote cactus, which is the one
11:47
Speaker 1: that's used in Indigenous ceremonies, Native American church, and now
11:51
Speaker 1: people are mostly people are being discouraged from using payote
11:54
Speaker 1: because there's a limited supply and you don't want to
11:56
Speaker 1: deprive Native American church members and Indigenous peoples of having
12:00
Speaker 1: access to it. But there's a plant called San Pedro
12:02
Speaker 1: which is also a source of mescalin. So I would
12:05
Speaker 1: say that I did at the one time I did it,
12:07
Speaker 1: I found that a lot like a mushroom experience. It
12:10
Speaker 1: can be maybe a little bit longer. It was before
12:14
Speaker 1: the invention of LSD in the forties or just you know,
12:17
Speaker 1: a creation of LSD in the forties, it was the
12:19
Speaker 1: most popular of the psychedelics. I just interviewed somebody on
12:22
Speaker 1: my podcast I Go Active. Mike j wrote a wonderful
12:24
Speaker 1: history of this whole thing. Michael Pollen, who has written
12:27
Speaker 1: that wonderful book changed and had to change your mind
12:30
Speaker 1: about psychedelics. He has a new book where he talks
12:33
Speaker 1: about his mescaline news. So I would say it's worth trying.
12:36
Speaker 1: Some people may prefer it to LSD or two mushrooms.
12:41
Speaker 1: I don't think it's radically different though. Okay, so it's
12:44
Speaker 1: in that same family. And what about your experience, you said, Iowaska,
12:48
Speaker 1: have you done that multiple times? You know? I did
12:51
Speaker 1: it for the first time about twenty years ago. I
12:54
Speaker 1: had a great experience, and I did it a fe
12:55
Speaker 1: years later in the context of a religious ceremony something
12:59
Speaker 1: the Brazilian church called Santo Dime. Although I did it,
13:01
Speaker 1: you know, loft in New York, but in that modality,
13:04
Speaker 1: and then since that time, I haven't really done the
13:06
Speaker 1: full blowing ones. I've been at gatherings with a sort
13:10
Speaker 1: of guide where they have low dose ayahuasca mixed in
13:14
Speaker 1: with other things. I've never gone down all South America
13:17
Speaker 1: to do it in the jungle. I saw you did
13:19
Speaker 1: that for the TV show you did on Netflix. I
13:21
Speaker 1: know a lot of people have done it that way,
13:23
Speaker 1: so it's not been a drug I've gone back to
13:26
Speaker 1: many times. Although I would definitely do it again. I
13:28
Speaker 1: would definitely do it again. You know, I'm one of
13:31
Speaker 1: the few people, like most people throw up when they
13:33
Speaker 1: do it, you know, and you're supposed to throw up
13:34
Speaker 1: because it helps to purge, but I didn't throw up.
13:37
Speaker 1: I didn't throw up either. Oh no, I did throw up.
13:40
Speaker 1: Sorry I did. Yeah, I thought you were talking about
13:43
Speaker 1: the other outlet because they say you can sometimes, you know,
13:46
Speaker 1: go to the backroom to with that. With respect to
13:48
Speaker 1: that second time I did it, nothing happened during the ceremony,
13:50
Speaker 1: but in following days that other outlet was quite active.
13:53
Speaker 1: Oh well, that's good to know. Thank you for filling
13:55
Speaker 1: me in. Yeah. Sure, do you find age at all
13:59
Speaker 1: to be a prohibitor? Are in any of these drugs
14:01
Speaker 1: we're talking about? You don't, I'll tell you. I think,
14:04
Speaker 1: first of as I say, as I've got an older
14:05
Speaker 1: m DNA is not really doing it for me. Marijuana
14:08
Speaker 1: continues to be my friend after all these years. I
14:11
Speaker 1: think if you don't have issues, like, for example, I
14:14
Speaker 1: don't have any. You know, I'm very healthy for my age,
14:17
Speaker 1: so I don't worry about cardiovascular issues. If you feel
14:19
Speaker 1: vulnerable cardiovastro lee, you have to be careful with taking
14:22
Speaker 1: a drug that could really, you know, get your heart
14:25
Speaker 1: going in a serious way. I've never been on antidepressants,
14:28
Speaker 1: but if you are, you know you can't be an
14:30
Speaker 1: antidepressants and be doing ayahuasca because as I've got a
14:33
Speaker 1: toxic combination. Like one thing I've gotten into in recent
14:36
Speaker 1: years is doing LSD. Not at the macro dose with
14:39
Speaker 1: the heroic dose, the big dose, and and not so
14:42
Speaker 1: much at the micro dose, the five or ten micrograms,
14:44
Speaker 1: but doing what I would call a mini dose of
14:47
Speaker 1: like twenty or thirty micrograms, which is enough to make
14:49
Speaker 1: you feel you're under the influence of something, but you're
14:52
Speaker 1: not really having any visions, You're not way out there.
14:55
Speaker 1: And I will say that the following day, I just
14:58
Speaker 1: feel exhausted, and I think that maybe aging. But you know,
15:03
Speaker 1: there are people who just keep doing it into their
15:05
Speaker 1: eighties and older. I mean, my view on the psychedelics
15:08
Speaker 1: has always been there kind of wasted on the young,
15:10
Speaker 1: and I tend to think about them. I let's give it.
15:13
Speaker 1: Gave a speech and I said, you know, I think
15:14
Speaker 1: about doing psychedelics the way I think about ya keep poor.
15:17
Speaker 1: You know, I'm Jewish, I grew up religious. Right now
15:20
Speaker 1: I'm not that religious, but you know, once a year, yon'
15:23
Speaker 1: kee poor fast twenty five hours, no food, no water,
15:26
Speaker 1: because I think it's a good thing for getting more
15:28
Speaker 1: in touch with that spiritual side. And I think the
15:31
Speaker 1: same thing with psychedelics that a lot of times people
15:34
Speaker 1: you know in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventy say, oh,
15:36
Speaker 1: I did that when I was young. But my view
15:39
Speaker 1: is it's a good thing to keep coming back to
15:41
Speaker 1: at least once a year. It's a it's good for
15:44
Speaker 1: stirring up the emotional sediment, the psychological sediment that builds
15:48
Speaker 1: up as we get older. And I think the reason
15:50
Speaker 1: that people get scared of it when they get older
15:53
Speaker 1: is because it does mean stirring up that emotional sediment.
15:56
Speaker 1: It does mean coming to grips with things, compromises you
16:00
Speaker 1: made in life, things you've had to settle for. But
16:02
Speaker 1: I actually think it's a healthy thing spiritually, emotionally, and
16:07
Speaker 1: probably even physically to keep doing it as long as
16:09
Speaker 1: one feels physically able. Wow, well, that's great. I love
16:13
Speaker 1: to hear that because I always feel like you, in
16:15
Speaker 1: a certain point, you have to stop the drugs, and
16:17
Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is quite the opposite. As
16:19
Speaker 1: long as you're continually evolving and exploring, there's no reason
16:23
Speaker 1: to stop unless you know you have some health limitations.
16:26
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And I seem to try to overcome those
16:29
Speaker 1: fears that happen as we get over. So many of
16:31
Speaker 1: my friends who used to do it with me back
16:32
Speaker 1: in the day, now they're worried about it. They're scared
16:35
Speaker 1: about it. Although the truth being that with all the
16:37
Speaker 1: same arable media about psychedelics now, with Michael Collin's book
16:40
Speaker 1: and all the other sorts of things, more and more
16:42
Speaker 1: people are expressing interest in doing it who either haven't
16:45
Speaker 1: done it in many decades or never did it. And
16:47
Speaker 1: I think that's an encouraging sign, you know. I mean,
16:51
Speaker 1: even with marijuana, if you think about it. I remember
16:54
Speaker 1: when we started legalizing marijuana, first for medical and then
16:56
Speaker 1: more broadly in the various states with all the ballot initiatives,
17:00
Speaker 1: and people would say, you just you watch, adolescent use
17:02
Speaker 1: is gonna skyrocket. And my response to them would be,
17:06
Speaker 1: I don't think so, because teenagers already have easy availability
17:10
Speaker 1: in marijuana and we're not legalizing it for them, So
17:13
Speaker 1: why is it going to go up so much? And
17:15
Speaker 1: I said, the real increase in use is going to
17:17
Speaker 1: be among people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties.
17:20
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you, you know, five ten years since
17:23
Speaker 1: we started legalizing marijuana or in states around the country,
17:26
Speaker 1: there's been virtually no jump in adolescent marijuana use, which
17:29
Speaker 1: would be something you'd worry about. But meanwhile, among people,
17:33
Speaker 1: like you know, people in their sixties seventies, there's like
17:35
Speaker 1: a quadrupling of us because people are finding it valuable.
17:38
Speaker 1: They're finding it, you know, that they find they prefer
17:41
Speaker 1: to alcohol, They find it helps with sleep, or aches
17:43
Speaker 1: and pains, or or maybe it helps to spice up
17:46
Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with a person you've been married to
17:49
Speaker 1: for decades, right, I mean, it's got all these sorts
17:51
Speaker 1: of benefits. And so I think the benefits of psychoactive drugs,
17:55
Speaker 1: and especially one it's like cannabis and psychedelics, I think
17:58
Speaker 1: they're underestimated in terms of being positively connected with healthy aging.
18:02
Speaker 1: Do you think that the dosage is important as you aged?
18:05
Speaker 1: I mean, because the micro dosing is really what everybody's
18:08
Speaker 1: on about now and guided journeys with whatever drug of choice,
18:12
Speaker 1: whether it's a micro dose of LSD or psilocybin or ketamine.
18:16
Speaker 1: Do you think that that has an impact. Well, it's
18:19
Speaker 1: so hard to know. I mean with micro doc thing,
18:22
Speaker 1: some people have claimed it's little more than a placebo,
18:26
Speaker 1: and other people have claimed released significant benefit from MIKE
18:30
Speaker 1: and micro doocing usually means taken between a tenth to
18:32
Speaker 1: the twentie of the dose that would normally result in
18:35
Speaker 1: a psychedelic trip. And so I would say the microdocing
18:40
Speaker 1: thing is worth trying. It does not appear to be
18:42
Speaker 1: much risk associated with it, although there's not long term
18:46
Speaker 1: studies on it, and that can evolve doing it with LSD,
18:49
Speaker 1: with mushrooms, it can even be done with ayahuasco or
18:51
Speaker 1: even what I've even heard about microdocing Iba game, which
18:54
Speaker 1: is a very powerful psychedelic out of West Africa from
18:57
Speaker 1: the aboga plant that you know, people have found great
19:00
Speaker 1: resulting during addiction. But I'm a little scared to try
19:03
Speaker 1: with marijuana. Some people find that as they get older
19:06
Speaker 1: that the brain changes in a way and so that
19:09
Speaker 1: you need less to get high. So I think it's
19:12
Speaker 1: a matter of just being attentive to what works and
19:16
Speaker 1: and look hoo for people use it differently. I know people,
19:19
Speaker 1: I know people, billionaires, enormously successful people. Every night, you know,
19:24
Speaker 1: they'll take a couple of puffs off a joint, watch
19:27
Speaker 1: late night TV and go to sleep. And they've been
19:29
Speaker 1: doing that for decades. I know brilliant academics and intellectuals
19:33
Speaker 1: who've been using marijuana, including for creative purposes. In my case,
19:38
Speaker 1: I don't do marijuana daily, you know. I smoke it
19:41
Speaker 1: periodically with friends or my partner or something like that.
19:45
Speaker 1: And and then edible I'm getting into. Edible is more frequently.
19:48
Speaker 1: In fact, for me, part of my healthy aging process
19:52
Speaker 1: is once a week when I'm in New York, I
19:54
Speaker 1: take ten dollograms of edible THHC, usually in a nice
19:58
Speaker 1: chocolate bar, grab my headphones, and I go down and
20:01
Speaker 1: get a multi hour massage, and I'm just floating and
20:05
Speaker 1: Mari Wanta helps me get into my body. So I
20:08
Speaker 1: think it's actually, when you're using any psychoactive drugs, the
20:11
Speaker 1: key thing is to be using it consciously, not to
20:14
Speaker 1: be using it unconsciously, and not to just be using
20:17
Speaker 1: it habitually, and not to be using it just in
20:19
Speaker 1: his escapest way is to use it consciously, to say,
20:23
Speaker 1: this is a moment or a thing I'm doing where
20:25
Speaker 1: I think, actually using this substance when hands what I'm
20:29
Speaker 1: intending to do or wanting to do right now. The
20:32
Speaker 1: circling back real quick to your m d m A
20:34
Speaker 1: experience with your ex wife, you said that that helps
20:37
Speaker 1: with issues in your marriage to have conversations while taking that.
20:41
Speaker 1: I have heard that before, but not really the way
20:44
Speaker 1: that you said it, because the dosage would have an
20:47
Speaker 1: impact on your being able to actually have a conversation
20:50
Speaker 1: like that in a serious nature, right, rather than just
20:52
Speaker 1: not not really chose because you know, with m d
20:55
Speaker 1: m A is pretty standard that people will do between
20:58
Speaker 1: a hundred and a hundred fifty grants, and so when
21:01
Speaker 1: you're doing m d m A, you know, nobody's hallucinating.
21:04
Speaker 1: It's not a psychedelic experience. They call the drug used
21:07
Speaker 1: to be called it in pathoging because it helps to
21:09
Speaker 1: open up your heart. In fact, at some point the
21:11
Speaker 1: nickname was originally gonna be like something like empathy. But
21:14
Speaker 1: people realize, you know, who wants to market a druggle empathy.
21:17
Speaker 1: There's not a big market for empathy. Let's call it ecstasy,
21:20
Speaker 1: and so ecstasy became the nickname for m d m A.
21:22
Speaker 1: But I think the key thing is that when the
21:24
Speaker 1: drug comes on and it's two people and you're in
21:27
Speaker 1: a relationship, the ability to process stuff, to process things
21:32
Speaker 1: that have been bugging one or the other to talk
21:35
Speaker 1: about them in a respectful way, an empathic way. It
21:39
Speaker 1: basically causes defenses to melt in a way. And I
21:42
Speaker 1: think that's it's great with with with my ex wife.
21:45
Speaker 1: You know, we were in a very difficult spot, but
21:47
Speaker 1: we did it together and we're able to talk and
21:49
Speaker 1: we actually thought for a while, as did our marriage counselor,
21:52
Speaker 1: that oh my god, our marriage is gonna be saved here.
21:54
Speaker 1: And in the end, you know, it wasn't enough. But
21:56
Speaker 1: I do think we landed up with a safer landing
21:59
Speaker 1: and became and wonderful co parents and friends thereafter, and
22:03
Speaker 1: subsequent relationships, you know, it was. It's always been valuable
22:06
Speaker 1: in terms of dealing with the stuff that builds begins
22:09
Speaker 1: to build up in a relationship, that that needs to
22:12
Speaker 1: get processed, that needs to get talked about. So I
22:15
Speaker 1: think just being there quiet place, have that conversation, and
22:20
Speaker 1: while you're in the conversation, remembering that it's not the
22:24
Speaker 1: kind of drug you can keep using over and over
22:26
Speaker 1: and over and over over again. If the idea is
22:28
Speaker 1: to as you're doing it and as you're having this heartfelt,
22:32
Speaker 1: honest understanding and pathet conversation to be thinking about ways
22:36
Speaker 1: in which you can get back to that spot the
22:38
Speaker 1: next day and the next week and the next month
22:41
Speaker 1: without having to use the drug repeatedly. Right, it's good
22:46
Speaker 1: to come back and use it occasionally. I'm talking about
22:49
Speaker 1: using it three, four or five times a year, not
22:51
Speaker 1: using it weekly and never mind daily or something like that.
22:54
Speaker 1: And it kind of depletes you right of your serotonin.
22:58
Speaker 1: If you think about you know, prozac, they both act
23:01
Speaker 1: on the serotonin level. That essentially, prozac is a mattress
23:05
Speaker 1: and M D m A is a trampoline, And so
23:08
Speaker 1: oftentimes the next day people can feel a bit depleted,
23:11
Speaker 1: although I'll tell you the first time I did it,
23:12
Speaker 1: I felt great the next day. Yeah. I always feel
23:14
Speaker 1: it the next day in my system in a good way,
23:17
Speaker 1: not a bad way, in a good way. Yeah. So
23:19
Speaker 1: that's that's great. That's great. I think if I have
23:21
Speaker 1: found this is just once again anecdotal, when I would
23:24
Speaker 1: do with friends and the next day we all jump
23:26
Speaker 1: on the plane's to go back home, I noticed that
23:28
Speaker 1: a surprising number as we get a cold and we
23:31
Speaker 1: get thick in the following days. So I think it's
23:34
Speaker 1: it's good to understand that your system just to maybe
23:37
Speaker 1: somewhat compromised the following day and just take it easy.
23:41
Speaker 1: And like oft time telling that people don't do it
23:43
Speaker 1: on a Sunday, do it on a Saturday. Make sure
23:45
Speaker 1: you have a day to take off between the day
23:48
Speaker 1: you take it and the day you're back and work,
23:50
Speaker 1: because what I find is that it melts your defenses,
23:53
Speaker 1: and the defenses don't just jump right back up to
23:56
Speaker 1: so to throw yourself right back into work the next
23:58
Speaker 1: day when your defense is they're still kind of down,
24:01
Speaker 1: you know, and ships flying at you in the work environment,
24:04
Speaker 1: you're not quite ready to deal with it. You need
24:06
Speaker 1: that recovery time that at least a day of recovery
24:10
Speaker 1: time after you do it. Yeah, and also it's good
24:12
Speaker 1: to take BE twelve before doing it and after doing
24:15
Speaker 1: it to help with that kind of they call it
24:17
Speaker 1: like suicide Tuesday. It's not suicide, right, suicide I don't know.
24:22
Speaker 1: It's usually two days after you take it that some
24:24
Speaker 1: people can have like a depressive episode. Right. This doesn't
24:27
Speaker 1: happen to everybody, but people can. It can happen. So
24:30
Speaker 1: it's always good to take B twelve. Okay, Well, Ethan,
24:33
Speaker 1: we're excited you're here today. We have a show where
24:35
Speaker 1: we have people call in for advice. So you're going
24:38
Speaker 1: to be our guest and Katherine's going to give us
24:40
Speaker 1: the low down. But first we're going to take a break,
24:42
Speaker 1: right Catherine. Yeah, We're gonna take a quick break for
24:45
Speaker 1: an ad and we'll be right back with some colors. Okay,
24:53
Speaker 1: and we're back. Fantastic. Well, we have really just all
24:58
Speaker 1: drug questions today. What a nice what a nice episode
25:02
Speaker 1: this is going to be. It feels so warm and fuzzy. Yes,
25:06
Speaker 1: I mean, I do have to I do have to
25:08
Speaker 1: preface this with I am a baby drug user. I
25:12
Speaker 1: have not really tried a whole lot of things. Haven't
25:15
Speaker 1: tried mushrooms, that sort of thing. Have minimally tried marijuana.
25:17
Speaker 1: Just wait till you come to my orca, Katherine. Don't worry,
25:20
Speaker 1: just wait. You have so much to look forward. And
25:24
Speaker 1: with N d n A, I'm oftentimes most envious. I
25:27
Speaker 1: call them the N d n A virgins because if
25:29
Speaker 1: you've never done it before, the first time is often
25:31
Speaker 1: times the best ever. So I'm kind of excited. I
25:35
Speaker 1: do have to say I won the second place prize
25:38
Speaker 1: in the Dare Essay writing competition in fifth grade, but
25:42
Speaker 1: second place was better than first place because she got
25:44
Speaker 1: like a tour of the police department and I got
25:46
Speaker 1: a pizza party. So yeah, seriously, hello, prizes are in
25:51
Speaker 1: the wrong order for that contest, exactly exactly. So our
25:55
Speaker 1: first question comes from Jamie. She says, Chelsea, you were
25:59
Speaker 1: talking think about CBD today when I was listening to
26:02
Speaker 1: Glennon's episode. I've tried many CBD products and I don't
26:05
Speaker 1: ever feel any effect. Can you recommend a specific amount
26:09
Speaker 1: or brand so I can feel the effects. I try
26:11
Speaker 1: to pop Brownie ones and it threw me into a
26:13
Speaker 1: terrible panic attack. I don't want to feel bad again.
26:16
Speaker 1: I just want to feel calm and sleep. Thanks Jamie, Well, CBD,
26:21
Speaker 1: if you're not feeling anything, I would say not to
26:23
Speaker 1: be opposed to adding a little th HC ratio to it.
26:27
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're taking c I don't really feel
26:29
Speaker 1: CBD when I take that by itself either. I'd usually
26:32
Speaker 1: take that for when I'm skiing for pain management for
26:35
Speaker 1: my knee, but I would say to throw in a
26:37
Speaker 1: little th HC, like you don't you know? It could
26:39
Speaker 1: be like two point five milligrams of t HC against
26:43
Speaker 1: a higher percentage or higher ratio of cb D for
26:46
Speaker 1: a little bit more of a buzz to help you
26:49
Speaker 1: so you can actually feel it without overdoing it. Ethan,
26:52
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this matter? Yeah, I really
26:55
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I do do CBD. All the
26:57
Speaker 1: stuff about the rub bombs and this and that, and
26:59
Speaker 1: it drops. There's not a lot of evidence out there
27:02
Speaker 1: about how using it in that form is actually helpful,
27:05
Speaker 1: and it's usually not psychoactive. There are studies that show
27:08
Speaker 1: that CBD has been helpful in some very serious medical conditions,
27:12
Speaker 1: but a lot of it's been hype. It's hard to say. Now.
27:14
Speaker 1: There is a website out there called Project CBD, a
27:17
Speaker 1: guy named Martin Lee, who I think is one of
27:19
Speaker 1: the most honorable you know. I don't think he's taken
27:22
Speaker 1: money from anyone company to promote one or the other.
27:24
Speaker 1: So I keep your eye on that Project CBD website
27:27
Speaker 1: and they may provide some guidance about what are the
27:29
Speaker 1: more reliable or less reliable both brands and ways of
27:33
Speaker 1: taking it or not taking it. The idea that Chelsea
27:36
Speaker 1: said about combining it with THHD and small amounts, I mean,
27:39
Speaker 1: you know, the plant produces the marijuana plant produces both
27:42
Speaker 1: th HC and CBD, and so that's why you see
27:44
Speaker 1: a lot of the edibles. Sometimes we'll have a th
27:47
Speaker 1: HC CBD combination. I think it's generally a good idea
27:50
Speaker 1: to use th HC with some CBD. Sometimes people have
27:54
Speaker 1: issues of marijuana and anxiety may find that if you're
27:57
Speaker 1: using th HC with no CBD in it, and may
28:00
Speaker 1: exacerbate the anxiety because CBD is supposed to be an
28:03
Speaker 1: anti anxiety drug. So I'd say, no fantastic information out there,
28:08
Speaker 1: but you can dig around and try to use the
28:10
Speaker 1: drugs in combination. And what's the name of that website again,
28:14
Speaker 1: I think it's called Project CBD or just google Martin
28:16
Speaker 1: Lee CBD, which is what I just did. Yeah, you know,
28:19
Speaker 1: I like the idea of combining it. There was a
28:21
Speaker 1: time when I was using a lot of CBD. I
28:23
Speaker 1: also didn't really feel anything. But Brad, my husband, and
28:27
Speaker 1: I went to the beach and I had been using
28:30
Speaker 1: like a CBD vape pretty heavily that day, and we
28:33
Speaker 1: decided like, okay, we're gonna like take a couple of
28:35
Speaker 1: hits of this very strong joint that we got as
28:38
Speaker 1: a as a wedding favor at my brother Ethan's wedding
28:41
Speaker 1: and we both took one hit and we're just I mean,
28:44
Speaker 1: it was beyond It was way too much. It was
28:47
Speaker 1: super super strong. And usually when I have too much marijuana,
28:51
Speaker 1: I get very like unhappy, panicky. It activates all that
28:55
Speaker 1: stuff for me. But since i'd had so much CBD,
28:59
Speaker 1: I was very calm, even though I was like, I'm
29:01
Speaker 1: way more stone than I want to meet. But it
29:03
Speaker 1: really helps from that perspective of like, just gave me
29:05
Speaker 1: a chill time. Hm, that makes sense. You know a
29:08
Speaker 1: lot of times a lot of people have issues with
29:10
Speaker 1: anxiety and marijuana. I think a lot of them I
29:13
Speaker 1: find that the first time they did marijuana, they did
29:15
Speaker 1: it in a social environment, oftentimes with people they were
29:18
Speaker 1: not necessarily that comfortable with. And so I think the
29:21
Speaker 1: best way to deal with that is when you're using marijuana,
29:24
Speaker 1: either to overcome that fear of anxiety or using it
29:26
Speaker 1: for the first time, try to do in a place
29:28
Speaker 1: where you're either if either by yourself or with your
29:31
Speaker 1: lover or close friends, where you're really comfortable, where there's
29:35
Speaker 1: nobody you have to be on with nobody you have
29:38
Speaker 1: issues with and if possible, do it not in like
29:41
Speaker 1: the same place, like the TV room or whatever, but
29:43
Speaker 1: trying to find a nice place outside, you know, whether
29:46
Speaker 1: it's the woods or a lake or something that's not
29:48
Speaker 1: your normal you know, sitting environment. Just alter it a bit. Well.
29:53
Speaker 1: Our next question comes from Michelle. Michelle says, Dear Chelsea,
29:57
Speaker 1: I'm going on a camping trip this month with my
29:59
Speaker 1: husband and two other couples. We all plan on doing
30:02
Speaker 1: mushrooms together. The other couples do this yearly and are
30:05
Speaker 1: inviting us for the first time. I don't have much
30:08
Speaker 1: experience with drugs. I smoked weed a bit in my
30:10
Speaker 1: early twenties, and I've done coke once. I'm a little
30:13
Speaker 1: nervous of the possibility of a quote bad trip. I
30:17
Speaker 1: feel extremely safe with my friends, and I know they'll
30:19
Speaker 1: guide me through the experience. I'm mostly nervous about my husband.
30:23
Speaker 1: He's very experienced with drugs, although he has never done mushrooms.
30:27
Speaker 1: But my main worry is his reaction if I do
30:29
Speaker 1: have a bad trip. He would prefer me not to partake,
30:33
Speaker 1: and I'm scared that my fear of his reaction could
30:35
Speaker 1: make me have a negative experience. What's your advice to
30:38
Speaker 1: have an enjoyable experience for my first time Michelle. Hi, Michelle,
30:42
Speaker 1: I think first off, you have to stop telling yourself
30:44
Speaker 1: you're not going to have a good experience, because that's
30:47
Speaker 1: like a self fulfilling prophecy. You have to go into
30:49
Speaker 1: drugs always like you're using the drug. The drug is
30:52
Speaker 1: not using you. That's how I feel about any time
30:54
Speaker 1: I take drugs. Anytime I'm not in control of the
30:57
Speaker 1: situation is when I'm not in control of the situation.
31:00
Speaker 1: So I would just say to do you know, if
31:01
Speaker 1: you're worried about your experience, just do half of what
31:04
Speaker 1: everybody's doing, and you're gonna have a good time. Mushrooms
31:06
Speaker 1: make you laugh, they make you relax. They you will
31:10
Speaker 1: be probably laughing the hardest you've ever laughed in your life.
31:12
Speaker 1: That's usually what happens to people the first time they
31:14
Speaker 1: do mushrooms. Ethan, what has you've been your experience with
31:17
Speaker 1: people who have bad trips on mushrooms. I mean, so,
31:20
Speaker 1: I think your advice to Michelle is right on the
31:22
Speaker 1: Other thing I would tend to say is that Michelle
31:26
Speaker 1: and her husband should have a conversation beforehand and maybe
31:29
Speaker 1: with their friends there just think. Listen. I want you
31:33
Speaker 1: to know, dear husband, that if I need some help
31:36
Speaker 1: during this, I'm not expecting you to be there. Please
31:40
Speaker 1: don't worry about me, and have one of the friends
31:42
Speaker 1: saying we're in charge here. Say to the husband, you
31:45
Speaker 1: can relax if you're having your own good trip, bad trip.
31:48
Speaker 1: Don't feel an obligation. You want to be together, be together,
31:52
Speaker 1: but don't get into a mode of needing this for
31:54
Speaker 1: one of the other. And we the friends are here
31:57
Speaker 1: to help in that and thereby take the pressure. So,
32:00
Speaker 1: for example, it does You're right, it's highly unlikely to
32:02
Speaker 1: go in the wrong direction. But if it does, that
32:04
Speaker 1: the husband's not gonna feel guilty for not being president.
32:07
Speaker 1: Is having the friends there the host, they're saying, we
32:10
Speaker 1: got this. You relax. When she's a little better, you
32:14
Speaker 1: guys can be together. Something along those lines. Yeah. And
32:17
Speaker 1: just for the record, I know this is I mean,
32:19
Speaker 1: I don't speak for the entire universe, even though i'd
32:21
Speaker 1: like to. I would like to say that I've never
32:24
Speaker 1: been around anybody who had a bad trip on mushrooms.
32:26
Speaker 1: And I do them all the time. I've done them
32:29
Speaker 1: dozens of times. I did have two trips that I
32:32
Speaker 1: would regard as that we went into a very dark place,
32:37
Speaker 1: um where I just began to feel enormously depressed. And
32:41
Speaker 1: I used two different approaches to deal with it the
32:43
Speaker 1: first time, and it felt a little bit light cheating
32:46
Speaker 1: was that when into when it went into a very
32:48
Speaker 1: dark place, I had some M D M A around,
32:51
Speaker 1: you know, ecstasy, and I just took a little M
32:54
Speaker 1: D M A and that just lifted it up into
32:57
Speaker 1: a beautiful place. Again. It's one reason why sometimes people
32:59
Speaker 1: can buy and mushrooms in M D M A, because
33:01
Speaker 1: it both enhances the possibility will go into a beautiful
33:04
Speaker 1: spot and it minimizes the chance of going into a
33:07
Speaker 1: dark spot. Now the other way to do it and
33:09
Speaker 1: the real possibility that it goes into a dark place.
33:12
Speaker 1: And this I remember I was doing it with my partner.
33:14
Speaker 1: We'ant a beat and it went into a very dark place.
33:18
Speaker 1: Everything felt black and dark and crumbling and dying and
33:22
Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff. And you can't The thing is,
33:24
Speaker 1: you cannot run away from a bad trip. You can't
33:27
Speaker 1: run away from it. And so what I did was
33:30
Speaker 1: I almost envisioned that darkness of the bad trip is
33:33
Speaker 1: like a huge wave and you know, when you swing
33:35
Speaker 1: in the ocean and then you see also a big
33:37
Speaker 1: wave coming, you can't run from it, because then you'll
33:39
Speaker 1: get you know, crash on you, you'll tumbling, you might
33:41
Speaker 1: hurt yourself. The only choice when a big wave is
33:44
Speaker 1: coming is to dive into it, dive underneath it, dive
33:47
Speaker 1: through it. And so I practically, like musically, almost dived
33:50
Speaker 1: into the sand. But like you know, I mean, you know,
33:53
Speaker 1: literally in a way or you know, a metaphorically, the
33:56
Speaker 1: way was into the way of the darkness, and I
33:59
Speaker 1: kind of came out of it. I came out of it,
34:02
Speaker 1: and all of the things just lifted and it became
34:05
Speaker 1: this magnificent trip for the rest of it. So I
34:08
Speaker 1: would say, you're right to tell her, don't worry about
34:11
Speaker 1: the bad one. It's highly unlikely. You have friends around
34:13
Speaker 1: who can take care of you. Don't worry about your
34:16
Speaker 1: husband's reaction. If it does go in a dark place,
34:19
Speaker 1: there are ways to deal with it. And whatever case,
34:21
Speaker 1: even if it is dark, you're gonna get better in
34:24
Speaker 1: a few hours and you'll be fine the next day.
34:26
Speaker 1: And many times people say they find that even going
34:29
Speaker 1: into a dark place on mushrooms are ayahuasca they may
34:32
Speaker 1: go through a terrifying place, especially with ayahuasca, and then
34:35
Speaker 1: the next day they said, my god, that was the
34:37
Speaker 1: most magnificent experience in my life because of how much
34:39
Speaker 1: I've learned, how much I've benefited. Yeah, so I would
34:42
Speaker 1: just say to lower the dosage compared to what your
34:45
Speaker 1: friends are taking, you know, just for you in beginning,
34:48
Speaker 1: Just take half so that you're not going to be,
34:51
Speaker 1: you know, out of control, and then if you like it,
34:53
Speaker 1: you can take more. Yes. Great, Well, we have our
35:00
Speaker 1: first caller of the day today. This is Annie. Annie says,
35:05
Speaker 1: dear Chelsea. I was diagnosed with complex PTSD about fifteen
35:09
Speaker 1: years ago, but I've struggled with it for over twenty years.
35:13
Speaker 1: I've tried many different forms of therapies, medications, and THHC,
35:16
Speaker 1: which have helped some but never completely. My symptoms have
35:20
Speaker 1: become much worse during the last few years, with running
35:22
Speaker 1: from fires in California, COVID, and just the general ship
35:26
Speaker 1: show that is our world. I'm now struggling to leave
35:29
Speaker 1: the house, and I've been isolating myself to an extreme.
35:32
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I'm bordering on agoraphobia. Even my work
35:36
Speaker 1: zooms have become a source of anxiety. I'm planning to
35:39
Speaker 1: email my doctor to talk to him about some beta
35:41
Speaker 1: blockers to help with the short term issues. I heard
35:44
Speaker 1: you talk about this on your show the other day,
35:46
Speaker 1: and I have never tried them before. My question to
35:48
Speaker 1: you is, I'm considering some alternative treatments, including micro dosing, psilocybin,
35:53
Speaker 1: m D m A, or therapeutic ketamine. I've read that
35:56
Speaker 1: in some instances they are curing PTSD with these treatments,
36:00
Speaker 1: which I had been told would never be possible. I'd
36:03
Speaker 1: rather try psilocybin, but that seems less legal at the
36:06
Speaker 1: moment and harder to come by. I feel lost in
36:08
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who to talk to about this.
36:11
Speaker 1: My doctor is pretty judgmental, and I would never bring
36:13
Speaker 1: this up to him. Do you have any advice on
36:15
Speaker 1: resources to learn more about these types of treatments. I've
36:18
Speaker 1: obviously googled it, but I'm not sure who to trust.
36:21
Speaker 1: I can't be the only one whose symptoms have become
36:23
Speaker 1: much worse during this COVID apocalypse time. Thank you both
36:27
Speaker 1: for doing what you do. Your show has been a
36:29
Speaker 1: great source of comfort and much needed laughter. Annie. Hi, Annie, Hi,
36:33
Speaker 1: Annie h that's Ethan he's our guest today. I'm so
36:38
Speaker 1: sorry that you're dealing with this. Annie. Oh thank you,
36:42
Speaker 1: But just know that this is temporary. You're not going
36:44
Speaker 1: to feel like this forever, and you're not alone. So
36:46
Speaker 1: many people feel like this after COVID and have anxiety,
36:50
Speaker 1: and you know there are ways to fix it. But Ethan,
36:52
Speaker 1: do you want to start with some resources, because you're
36:55
Speaker 1: probably the man for that. Just a few things. I mean,
36:58
Speaker 1: first of all, I think when it comes to microdo
37:00
Speaker 1: is saying with mushrooms or something like that, if you
37:02
Speaker 1: can get a hold of them, even just you know,
37:04
Speaker 1: not even pure philocide mushrooms, there's relatively little risk with
37:08
Speaker 1: doing that at a very very low level. I mean,
37:10
Speaker 1: maybe it helps, maybe not, if there's not much evidence
37:13
Speaker 1: on it. I think the place I'd start is with ketamine,
37:16
Speaker 1: because ketamine is legal, and I think the first place
37:19
Speaker 1: I probably the godfather of ketamine assisted psychotherapy as a
37:23
Speaker 1: fellow named Phil Wilson up in Marin County in California,
37:26
Speaker 1: and he's got a whole bunch of websites, So just
37:29
Speaker 1: Google and Phil Wilson and kennamine. One of his top
37:31
Speaker 1: proteges is a doctor in the New York area. Gita
37:34
Speaker 1: bade I actually interviewed her on my podcast Psychoactive not
37:37
Speaker 1: long ago, and she speaks about the art of doing
37:40
Speaker 1: psychotherapy assisted by ketamine, and because that's legal, it's going
37:44
Speaker 1: to be easier to access the challenges to find the
37:47
Speaker 1: best therapists, and I think starting up with Phil Wilson
37:50
Speaker 1: is a way to go. Now, m d m A
37:52
Speaker 1: is probably going to get approved by the Food and
37:55
Speaker 1: Drug Administration the FDA sometime later this year next year
37:58
Speaker 1: for treatment of Pete s D. So there are already
38:02
Speaker 1: research programs they're emitting patients. So if you just google PTSD,
38:06
Speaker 1: m d m A Psychedelic Therapists something like that, you'll
38:09
Speaker 1: probably see people popping up. The organization maps, which is
38:13
Speaker 1: the Multi Disapline Associated Psychologic Studies, has been the one
38:16
Speaker 1: driving this process for with the FDA, and they're training
38:18
Speaker 1: people all around the country to be therapists. So that's
38:21
Speaker 1: probably the other place I would look. And once you
38:24
Speaker 1: start nosing around, then people will start to recommend to
38:28
Speaker 1: you therapists who are using m d m A assisted psychotherapy,
38:32
Speaker 1: not fully legally yet, but where it's becoming more and
38:36
Speaker 1: more common. Okay, thank you, do you know have you
38:40
Speaker 1: heard of maps, Annie, I have heard of MAPS. I've
38:42
Speaker 1: done some reading about it. I just yeah, it doesn't
38:46
Speaker 1: seem like it was widely available yet. So well, they
38:50
Speaker 1: basically have research programs now, so sometimes if you can
38:53
Speaker 1: still get into one of those. But once you start
38:55
Speaker 1: calling around, people will let you know about psychotherapists who
38:59
Speaker 1: are provide being this sort of help, either using psilocybin
39:02
Speaker 1: or m D M A, but starting off with ketamine
39:05
Speaker 1: simply because it's legal. Just finding the right therapist I
39:07
Speaker 1: think really is the way to go. Okay, perfect, thank you.
39:11
Speaker 1: And what state are you in, Annie, I'm in California.
39:14
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well that's easy to find in California guided
39:17
Speaker 1: kenemine trips. I have a few friends that are doing that.
39:20
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I didn't know that that was really a
39:23
Speaker 1: thing here. I've seen it like in southern California, but
39:27
Speaker 1: I'm in northern California. Phill Wilson is right up in
39:30
Speaker 1: Marin and he's the godfather of kenemine. So definitely check
39:32
Speaker 1: out his website and see what you can find out there. Okay, great,
39:36
Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, and you know, try and in the meantime,
39:39
Speaker 1: Beta blockers. If you get those prescription, that's a short
39:42
Speaker 1: term solution, but it also does kind of the neuropathways.
39:45
Speaker 1: It changes those. In my experience, I've taken beta blockers
39:48
Speaker 1: and you don't have to take them all the time.
39:50
Speaker 1: You take them and it kind of sets up a
39:51
Speaker 1: new pattern of thoughts so that you don't get that
39:53
Speaker 1: nervous energy. I do look at it as a short
39:55
Speaker 1: term solution. I think that the ketamine and everything else
39:58
Speaker 1: is a deeper, more spiritual solut san to you know,
40:00
Speaker 1: the anxiety and the discomfort you're feeling. Yeah, there's also
40:04
Speaker 1: a brilliant doctor writer think her name Julie Holland, who
40:07
Speaker 1: talks a lot about this stuff. So just google Julie
40:10
Speaker 1: Holland and I think you'll come across some interesting information
40:13
Speaker 1: as well. Thank you. Okay, Annie, take care. Let let
40:16
Speaker 1: us know how it go. Yeah, let us know how
40:18
Speaker 1: it goes. Okay, Well, thank you so much. Sure, all right, Well,
40:23
Speaker 1: our next question comes from Katie. Katie asks, dear Chelsea
40:28
Speaker 1: on the show, I heard you talking about micro dosing
40:31
Speaker 1: chocolate mushrooms. I'm an elementary school special ed teacher, and
40:34
Speaker 1: my weed and zan X intake increased substantially over the pandemic.
40:39
Speaker 1: I talked to her a little bit about it, and
40:40
Speaker 1: her zanex increase was really linked to a really high
40:43
Speaker 1: stress job that she had. I'm looking to take a
40:46
Speaker 1: break from the weed, but I know I'll be very unpleasant.
40:49
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the chocolate fung guy and where it
40:51
Speaker 1: can find them safely. Thanks Katie, and she's actually here
40:55
Speaker 1: with us on the phone as well. Hi Katie, Hi there. Yeah,
41:00
Speaker 1: I think mushrooms are a great pivot for you. Are
41:03
Speaker 1: mushrooms legal? What? What states legally sell mushrooms? Ethan? No,
41:07
Speaker 1: there's no place where its legal, although if you figure
41:10
Speaker 1: out a way to grow it, there's all these sort
41:12
Speaker 1: of guys to growing you at home, and so large
41:14
Speaker 1: numbers of people are doing that now. I'll also tell
41:16
Speaker 1: you I don't know where you are, but like here
41:18
Speaker 1: in New York City where they have all these marijuanna
41:20
Speaker 1: delivery services that are still illegal, but nobody's going after
41:23
Speaker 1: them anymore. More and more of them are selling chocolate mushrooms.
41:27
Speaker 1: I mean, I've now seen these menus which used to
41:29
Speaker 1: just be different types of marijuana edible and smokable, and
41:32
Speaker 1: now they're including you know, mushrooms in little powders and
41:35
Speaker 1: mushrooms and chocolate. So you know, if you if you know,
41:38
Speaker 1: where do you live. I live in New England and
41:42
Speaker 1: I use a delivery one of those you know, same
41:45
Speaker 1: type of things, so I'll have to check that out.
41:47
Speaker 1: I haven't even bothered to look at their edibles. M hmm. Yeah.
41:51
Speaker 1: Just ask your delivery service if they happen to vide
41:53
Speaker 1: mushrooms and if they don't, if they know somebody who does.
41:55
Speaker 1: Because I'm amazed and how much this it is taken
41:58
Speaker 1: off in the marijuana delivery world, that you're carrying these
42:00
Speaker 1: things as well. Yeah, that's been my biggest issue is
42:04
Speaker 1: being you know, old enough to know that online is
42:07
Speaker 1: not where it's at to be trusted necessarily, and then
42:11
Speaker 1: not being young enough to really know anybody that's still
42:15
Speaker 1: growing or got stuff like that around, And so I
42:18
Speaker 1: was kind of stuck. And my doctor was more concerned
42:22
Speaker 1: with the xan x used leading to Alzheimer's more than
42:27
Speaker 1: anything else, which kind of scared me. And then that
42:30
Speaker 1: was kind of like, Okay, I really like to back
42:32
Speaker 1: off of that and not need it so much. So
42:35
Speaker 1: if I had a different option other than the weed
42:38
Speaker 1: that would be great because at this point I just
42:40
Speaker 1: smoke all the time. What about with weed? I mean,
42:42
Speaker 1: because the Zannex is the one from a health perspective,
42:44
Speaker 1: it has a lot more risks, and weed has relatively
42:47
Speaker 1: fewer risks. And it might be a matter of changing
42:50
Speaker 1: the way you're consuming weed or the you know, maybe
42:53
Speaker 1: shifting to a drink couple of self with low THHC
42:56
Speaker 1: content in it, and those can be kind of nice.
42:58
Speaker 1: I don't already tried that. Yeah, my issue is that
43:02
Speaker 1: I my consumption is just off the charts, and like
43:06
Speaker 1: I'd make my own tincture that's a hundred twenty milligrams
43:10
Speaker 1: per melo leader and make my own gummies and sometimes
43:14
Speaker 1: feel them. Chelsea talked about chocolate mushrooms as as an alternative,
43:20
Speaker 1: and I was really curious about it. Yeah, I think
43:23
Speaker 1: what Ethan said is pretty accurate. Though, Like anyone who's
43:25
Speaker 1: delivering weed is also delivering mushrooms because they're everywhere. Everywhere
43:29
Speaker 1: I go, somebody hands me mushrooms. I wish I could
43:32
Speaker 1: hand them to you right now. I want to go
43:36
Speaker 1: to there. But yeah, but yeah, you you should investigate
43:40
Speaker 1: and if it's not that we delivery service, that you're using,
43:42
Speaker 1: look for some other ones, because I guarantee you'll find
43:44
Speaker 1: them there. You know. Just don't overdo it when you're
43:47
Speaker 1: trying mushrooms for the first time. Again, make sure you're
43:49
Speaker 1: just doing like a half a dose to see how
43:52
Speaker 1: what your reaction is. And then once you're comfortable with it,
43:54
Speaker 1: you know how to tightrate or increase or whatever you're after,
43:58
Speaker 1: which is relief. Yeah, I was gonna say, what is it?
44:02
Speaker 1: How would you describe that feeling well with mushrooms? I
44:05
Speaker 1: find that I just have a lot of clarity and
44:07
Speaker 1: I feel up. If I take chocolate mushrooms, Like with
44:09
Speaker 1: my girlfriends, I'll take more to laugh, you know, and
44:12
Speaker 1: just be silly, but mostly I take them, you know.
44:15
Speaker 1: I took one yesterday. My friend had some mushroom morning mushrooms,
44:18
Speaker 1: and it had like all these other ingredients in it
44:21
Speaker 1: that we're just like wake up natural ingredients and and
44:25
Speaker 1: herbs and stuff like that. So and that stuff is
44:28
Speaker 1: just so minimal. You just feel a little bit more
44:30
Speaker 1: clarity and just a little sharper, you know, on it,
44:32
Speaker 1: and upbeat and ready to go, kind of like a
44:35
Speaker 1: cup of coffee without it. I was just gonna say,
44:38
Speaker 1: my TikTok algorithm locked on into sending me mudwater. Is
44:42
Speaker 1: that something similar to what you're talking about? Yeah, the
44:45
Speaker 1: mudwater is. I love it. I think it's very tasty,
44:48
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit more of like a coffee
44:49
Speaker 1: substitute rather than Yeah, it's like adapt to gen mushrooms
44:54
Speaker 1: for health and and that sort of thing. But it's tasty,
44:57
Speaker 1: it tastes like ty t you know, but not gonna
45:00
Speaker 1: get you high. No. So here's one more question too.
45:05
Speaker 1: Would you both suggest that she sort of tapered down
45:09
Speaker 1: the marijuana use before trying the mushrooms or use them
45:12
Speaker 1: in conjunction with each other. Well, what's the negative effect
45:16
Speaker 1: of the marijuana use now? For you? I mean my
45:19
Speaker 1: bank account? Um, but I have a home garden with
45:24
Speaker 1: all a bunch of tomato plants and then one one
45:26
Speaker 1: lovely little sativa. So I'm, you know, trying that way.
45:29
Speaker 1: But other than the fact that I'm spending a lot
45:31
Speaker 1: of money and don't really get high anymore unless it's
45:35
Speaker 1: you know, what people would consider way overdoing it, Like
45:38
Speaker 1: I went through like a half an ounce in the
45:40
Speaker 1: last week. Yeah, so your tolerance is pretty high. Yeah,
45:44
Speaker 1: because some people use marijuana as heavily as you do,
45:48
Speaker 1: it's because you're getting some medical benefit from it. I
45:51
Speaker 1: mean it may be serving this anti anxiety purpose definitely
45:54
Speaker 1: is trying to pull back on the zanys and maybe
45:57
Speaker 1: figuring out a more cost effective way, the most cost
46:00
Speaker 1: effective way to be consuming the marijuana. And I think
46:03
Speaker 1: if you're gonna do the mushrooms, I don't know that
46:05
Speaker 1: you need to cut back on the marijuana. You know,
46:07
Speaker 1: it's there are different substances. They operate differently on your brain.
46:11
Speaker 1: And if you're doing is Chelsea you suggest doing with
46:13
Speaker 1: a little micro dose thing or smaller dose try it.
46:16
Speaker 1: I mean, look, for me, the advantage of not using
46:18
Speaker 1: cannabis every day is that when I get high, I
46:21
Speaker 1: really enjoy getting high. Yeah, I miss that. I think
46:23
Speaker 1: I'd more look at it through that lens to see
46:25
Speaker 1: if you, in fact you can taper off on cannabis
46:27
Speaker 1: or have some you know, a cannabis free day or
46:31
Speaker 1: like each week or something like that, and just see
46:33
Speaker 1: what that feels like. And then you can decide whether
46:35
Speaker 1: you want to try something like a low dose mushroom,
46:38
Speaker 1: either on your off marijuana day or even on the
46:40
Speaker 1: days you're doing marijuana. Okay, I'm definitely curious. I might
46:45
Speaker 1: now that I know it's it's in New York. I'm
46:47
Speaker 1: I'm ahead of there in a couple of days, so
46:51
Speaker 1: I should tell you New York they haven't actually opened
46:53
Speaker 1: up the doors for legal sale until the beginning of
46:57
Speaker 1: the year, so so it would still be a deliver
47:00
Speaker 1: Your service will be delivery. Some places are opening up
47:02
Speaker 1: anyway and sort of daring the cops to addrest them
47:05
Speaker 1: so you can find them. Yeah, I mean, they've got
47:08
Speaker 1: better things to do at this point, really exactly. Yeah,
47:11
Speaker 1: but you can easily find a delivery service. I mean,
47:13
Speaker 1: that's what everybody in New York City does, you know,
47:16
Speaker 1: if you get it delivered, So whoever you're staying with,
47:18
Speaker 1: you could figure that out easily. Awesome. That's so great
47:22
Speaker 1: to know. Well, I really appreciate your your advice, and
47:25
Speaker 1: you know, it was cool to get to chat and
47:28
Speaker 1: something that I wouldn't normally get to have a conversation
47:32
Speaker 1: with on like an educated level. So that's pretty cool.
47:34
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Awesome, Awesome, Good luck to you. Keep
47:37
Speaker 1: us posting alright, alright, by well, our next question really
47:44
Speaker 1: fits well into what we just talked about with Katie
47:47
Speaker 1: Carrie wrote in She Says, Dear Chelsea. I've been dating
47:50
Speaker 1: my boyfriend for four years now. We're in our late twenties.
47:53
Speaker 1: He's always very openly loved smoking weed. I don't personally
47:56
Speaker 1: partake very often because it makes my anxiety worse, but
48:00
Speaker 1: lots of my friends and family do, so I'm very
48:02
Speaker 1: familiar with being around it. In the early years of
48:04
Speaker 1: our relationship, I saw no problem with his smoking because
48:07
Speaker 1: we were young. It seemed less destructive than drinking, and
48:10
Speaker 1: I didn't feel it was my place to judge. However,
48:13
Speaker 1: he's almost thirty now and he smokes every single day.
48:15
Speaker 1: He'll smoke right when he gets home from work, and
48:17
Speaker 1: again multiple times throughout the night until we go to bed.
48:20
Speaker 1: On the weekends, he smokes almost immediately after waking up.
48:23
Speaker 1: Often he can't even eat without it because he's used
48:26
Speaker 1: to relying on it to induce hunger. To his credit,
48:29
Speaker 1: his personality isn't altered much when he smokes. He doesn't
48:32
Speaker 1: get quiet or sleepy as I know some people do.
48:35
Speaker 1: I still enjoy being around him, even though he sometimes
48:37
Speaker 1: does have a bad memory because of it. My question is,
48:41
Speaker 1: how do you know when smoking we becomes a problem.
48:44
Speaker 1: We're approaching the age where we make more serious commitments
48:46
Speaker 1: like marriage and kids, and this feels like the elephant
48:49
Speaker 1: in the room. I've spoken to him multiple times about this,
48:52
Speaker 1: but rather than having a conversation, he shuts down my
48:54
Speaker 1: concerns as me having an outdated and biased view of marijuana.
48:59
Speaker 1: In his opinion, there are no bad side effects, it's
49:01
Speaker 1: more widely becoming legal, and there's really no reason to
49:04
Speaker 1: stop or slow down. Since you openly enjoy weed more
49:08
Speaker 1: than I do, it might be interesting to have a
49:10
Speaker 1: perspective on when and if marijuana use can go too far.
49:13
Speaker 1: Carry ethan, why don't you hit that out of the park. Okay?
49:17
Speaker 1: What I would just say to her is basically, if
49:21
Speaker 1: he's not really seeing any problems with his youth, And
49:26
Speaker 1: then she said maybe his memory isn't as good because
49:29
Speaker 1: he's smoking weed. But I think the bottom line is basically,
49:33
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. Getting older is not an issue.
49:37
Speaker 1: He's getting defensive in the relationship with you is not
49:39
Speaker 1: going to be productive. He's already indicated he can hear
49:42
Speaker 1: criticism of that side of his life. Is quite possible
49:46
Speaker 1: that he's using this in a way that's more medical
49:48
Speaker 1: than anything else, since he's probably really not getting very
49:51
Speaker 1: high anymore. He's just using it on a very regular basis.
49:55
Speaker 1: So I can understand feeling a little irritated by the
49:58
Speaker 1: fact that that thing is always in life and it's
50:00
Speaker 1: not something you share much, and maybe even feeling a
50:03
Speaker 1: little jealous of it in some respect. But unless you
50:06
Speaker 1: can pinpoint problems with it, I would just leave it alone.
50:10
Speaker 1: And it's quite possible that the day will come and
50:12
Speaker 1: the moment will come when he comes to the conclusion
50:15
Speaker 1: that maybe he wants to stop doing it. But if
50:17
Speaker 1: he's got his backup, because you're getting more and more
50:20
Speaker 1: critical about it, I don't think that's going to go anywhere. Good. Yeah,
50:24
Speaker 1: I would say the exact same thing. There's no reason,
50:26
Speaker 1: you know, it is kind of an outdated stance on it.
50:29
Speaker 1: I mean, it is becoming legal everywhere he likes using it,
50:32
Speaker 1: And again what Ethan said is perfectly accurate. At this point,
50:36
Speaker 1: he's probably not getting that much benefit from it, unless
50:38
Speaker 1: it is a health benefit, because he's certainly probably not
50:41
Speaker 1: getting high at this point. I know when I over
50:43
Speaker 1: consume marijuana, it takes so much to make me high,
50:46
Speaker 1: So yeah, you gotta kind of just like get rid
50:49
Speaker 1: of that way of thinking and you know, just be happy.
50:52
Speaker 1: It's not something like drinking or another drug. That would
50:55
Speaker 1: be a situation if somebody came home and they relied
50:58
Speaker 1: on that. You know, marijuana pretty benign and it's helpful
51:02
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. So you don't know what
51:03
Speaker 1: kind of anxiety he might have or what other body
51:07
Speaker 1: aches he might have that this is helping him with that.
51:10
Speaker 1: He might not even be aware of himself. It might
51:12
Speaker 1: just be to for him to equalize. So I would
51:15
Speaker 1: just try and say, be a little bit more open
51:17
Speaker 1: hearted and open minded. Let him do his thing, and
51:19
Speaker 1: then you do your thing. Yeah, and there's that old
51:22
Speaker 1: thing of when do you know something is addictive or
51:25
Speaker 1: becoming a problem, and it's when you have negative consequences.
51:28
Speaker 1: It sounds like he's not really having negative consequences. You know.
51:31
Speaker 1: We've had people call into the show and and say,
51:34
Speaker 1: you know, I really want to taper down my marijuana
51:36
Speaker 1: use or or that sort of thing. So I feel
51:38
Speaker 1: like if someone thinks that they do, then like, go
51:41
Speaker 1: for it. Definitely, your body is telling you something, your
51:44
Speaker 1: mind is telling you something. But it sounds like he's
51:46
Speaker 1: not having any any negative consequences other than this relationship issue. Yeah,
51:50
Speaker 1: I liked what you said that. My definition of addiction
51:53
Speaker 1: is addiction equals dependence plus problems. So if you're dependent
51:58
Speaker 1: on a drug, whether it's off you to get up
52:00
Speaker 1: in the morning, whether it's a statin for your cholesterol
52:03
Speaker 1: or a heart drug, whether it's method on because you
52:06
Speaker 1: were once addicted to heroin, it's not an addiction so
52:10
Speaker 1: long as that dependence on the drug is not a problem.
52:13
Speaker 1: And it sounds quite likely that with this guy, it
52:16
Speaker 1: sounds like it's basically a dependence, a serious dependence, but
52:19
Speaker 1: not really causing any problems. In fact, it sounds like
52:22
Speaker 1: the biggest problem is it could become a problem in
52:24
Speaker 1: his marriage, even if it's not causing him any problems
52:26
Speaker 1: in his own personal life. Apart from that. Well, on
52:30
Speaker 1: that note, we will take our break and we'll be
52:33
Speaker 1: right back with Ethan Nadelman and Chelsea. We're back, fantastic. Well, Ethan,
52:44
Speaker 1: did you have any advice you'd like to get from Chelsea? Wow, Chelsea,
52:47
Speaker 1: you know I was thinking about that. The first piece
52:50
Speaker 1: of advice, and if you is not specifically about drugs.
52:53
Speaker 1: You have this very successful podcast, and I have my
52:56
Speaker 1: podcast like a active which I'm trying to turn into
52:58
Speaker 1: a much bigger thing. So if you've got any advice
53:01
Speaker 1: about how to get a building audience for a podcast
53:04
Speaker 1: that talks about the whole spectrum of drugs and drug
53:08
Speaker 1: wars and drug policies and drug use, I'm all ears
53:11
Speaker 1: for advice about doing something like that. Well, I mean,
53:15
Speaker 1: you should book a couple of celebrity guests. I'll volunteer
53:17
Speaker 1: to come on and talk to you about drugs. That
53:19
Speaker 1: will help the first thing, Yeah, to make it a
53:21
Speaker 1: little shiny. But I've what I've learned about podcasts. How
53:24
Speaker 1: long have you had your podcast? I'm in the second
53:26
Speaker 1: season now, so we started just over a year ago. Yeah.
53:29
Speaker 1: What I've learned is that it takes a couple of
53:31
Speaker 1: years for anybody, whether you're a famous person or less
53:34
Speaker 1: famous or whatever your platform is, that it takes a
53:37
Speaker 1: few years to really build and grow. But when you
53:39
Speaker 1: have a subject matter that's so many people are interested
53:42
Speaker 1: right now and it's such a part of our zeitgeist.
53:45
Speaker 1: I mean, I have no I mean, you've got a
53:47
Speaker 1: great title, and you're very knowledgeable obviously, so I would
53:51
Speaker 1: imagine that people are very interested in hearing more of
53:54
Speaker 1: what you have to say. So I know that certainly
53:57
Speaker 1: our listeners have plenty of them, will be interested in
53:59
Speaker 1: that too. So I would just say, yeah, just keep
54:01
Speaker 1: doing it. That's how you accrue more listeners, you know,
54:04
Speaker 1: you just it happens slowly over time. Okay, great, Well
54:08
Speaker 1: I have one other question for you, which is, you know,
54:10
Speaker 1: when I used to be a professor and I wrote books,
54:12
Speaker 1: academic books and a lot of writing. But in the
54:15
Speaker 1: last and twenty years, I've been writing less and less,
54:17
Speaker 1: and now I want to write a book about my
54:19
Speaker 1: life and about drugs, and I'm kind of blocked. And
54:22
Speaker 1: I see that you've had like five or six best
54:25
Speaker 1: sellers and a lot of them about your life. So
54:27
Speaker 1: how did you actually get those books done and out
54:31
Speaker 1: with a lot of cannabis? Quite frankly, that's really that
54:36
Speaker 1: that that is the best use of cannabis that I've
54:38
Speaker 1: ever had. When I have a task at hand, a
54:40
Speaker 1: creative task, and I do all the work, but when
54:44
Speaker 1: I have to go in and polish and deliver is
54:46
Speaker 1: when I use cannabis and or mushrooms. Mushrooms also micro
54:50
Speaker 1: docing mushrooms helps me focus. But yeah, because you get
54:53
Speaker 1: organized and then you get hyper focused. Cannabis helps me
54:57
Speaker 1: lose myself in something, but I have to have the
54:59
Speaker 1: subject there, you know what I mean. Like if I
55:01
Speaker 1: go work out, I can lose myself and working out.
55:04
Speaker 1: If I'm writing, I can lose myself and writing. If
55:06
Speaker 1: I'm sitting on my bed, I'm gonna lose myself on
55:08
Speaker 1: my phone. But you just I like to choose the
55:11
Speaker 1: activity that I'm going to lose myself in. But I
55:12
Speaker 1: would definitely say cannabis has been a huge contributor to
55:15
Speaker 1: my the success of my books. Wow. Wow, Well, I'll
55:19
Speaker 1: tell you I keep meaning to start kind of microdocing
55:21
Speaker 1: mushroom routine, but I keep forgetting to do it. So
55:24
Speaker 1: it maybe that that maybe the answer for me, because
55:27
Speaker 1: sometimes I found with cannabis like I find a hard
55:29
Speaker 1: time writing with it because I sort of forget, like
55:31
Speaker 1: I lose my train of thought, you know, I forget
55:33
Speaker 1: what it was I wrote just it was just thinking
55:36
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago. It's one reason I don't like
55:38
Speaker 1: giving a speech or doing interview under the influence of cannabis,
55:41
Speaker 1: because it's problematic in that way, whereas mushrooms can be
55:45
Speaker 1: more focusing so I maybe have to make more of
55:47
Speaker 1: a serious effort there. Yeah, just put it together as
55:50
Speaker 1: your responsibility to get your book done right. You're right,
55:53
Speaker 1: and you need to start your mushroom routine. Sounds good.
55:56
Speaker 1: Sounds good, Ethan, thank you so much for being on
55:59
Speaker 1: the podcast today. I loved everything you had to say. Well,
56:02
Speaker 1: I look, I love doing it. It was great to
56:04
Speaker 1: team up with you on answering those questions, Chelsea, and
56:07
Speaker 1: I really admire so all the ways that you've been
56:09
Speaker 1: out there on the drug issue and on so many
56:11
Speaker 1: others or politics aligned very much and I appreciate both
56:15
Speaker 1: your courage and sort of really speaking, I saw you
56:17
Speaker 1: were speaking out about this drug stuff before marijuana was legal,
56:20
Speaker 1: and you were speaking about psychedelics and doing episodes about
56:23
Speaker 1: it on Netflix and all those where when this was
56:25
Speaker 1: not quite so cool and hips, so you were one
56:27
Speaker 1: of the pioneers and getting this out and I really
56:29
Speaker 1: do appreciate that. Thank you, Thanks, Sad, Thanks Okay, bye
56:32
Speaker 1: bye bye. So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just
56:37
Speaker 1: send us an email at Dear Chelsea project at gmail
56:40
Speaker 1: dot com. Dear Chelsea is a production of I Heart
56:44
Speaker 1: Radio Executive produced by Nick Stuff produced by Catherine Law
56:48
Speaker 1: and edited and engineered by Brad Dickert.