Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Re-CHARGING Reform Judaism: Clarity, Courage, and Moral Leadership
Transcript
- 0:01I'm Rabbi Ammi Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York and
- 0:04you're listening to IN THESE TIMES.
- 0:11On May 27th and 28th, we welcomed more than 350 rabbis, cantors,
- 0:16educators, synagogue presidents and board members, and other activists
- 0:21from across the Reform movement and around the world
- 0:24to our synagogue — the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue.
- 0:29Over two days, we addressed the urgent challenges facing liberal
- 0:32American Jewry and continued some of the most important conversations
- 0:37happening in our movement today.
- 0:40So today I want to do something a little bit different.
- 0:42Instead of an expert guest, you'll be hearing more of me — my
- 0:46keynote from the third Re-CHARGING Reform Judaism conference.
- 0:59Welcome to the Third Re-CHARGING Reform Judaism Conference!
- 1:05Welcome to New York City! Welcome to the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue!
- 1:10It is our honor to host you.
- 1:12Thank you for taking the time to spend these two days together, especially
- 1:16those of you from out-of-town.
- 1:18You may have followed the news that much has changed in New York since
- 1:22we last convened two years ago, not all of it for the better.
- 1:28Nonetheless, there are still some interesting and fun things to
- 1:31do in the city, and it is a joy to see each other again,
- 1:34and spend time together.
- 1:36A special thanks to my friend and partner, Mark Anshan, who, for
- 1:40decades, has participated in, and led, many North American and international
- 1:47bodies of the Reform movement.
- 1:49He is a talented lay leader, committed to the success and
- 1:54wellbeing of our movement, and is an intensely hard worker, more than
- 2:01justifying the enormous salary we pay him!
- 2:07I also want to express our collective gratitude to our philanthropic
- 2:10partners, individuals and foundations, many of whom are with us today,
- 2:16who support us, push us, press us and encourage us to succeed.
- 2:21They are my kind of Jews!
- 2:24Whether they consider themselves Reform or not — they all recognize
- 2:30the immense challenges we face. They all understand that we are at an
- 2:35inflection point in Jewish history.
- 2:38They model for us what commitment to Jewish peoplehood means:
- 2:43the recognition that urgent times
- 2:47require setting aside whatever controversies we can for another day,
- 2:53and joining forces to confront the much greater challenges that threaten us all. We have
- 3:00come a long way in three years!
- 3:03From the initial effort to convene several dozen Reform activists who
- 3:07were increasingly worried about the direction of the Reform movement,
- 3:12we have since built a nation-wide network of many hundreds of Reform
- 3:19rabbis, cantors, educators, other Jewish professionals, and lay leaders.
- 3:25Our accomplishments in the past three years are, themselves, testament
- 3:31to what we have always emphasized:
- 3:34Open your eyes.
- 3:36There is a growing crisis within the Reform movement, and we must
- 3:40respond with vision and vigor.”
- 3:45Many more of us have now taken up that mantle.
- 3:49The most important and long-lasting achievement of any leadership generation
- 3:54in any vocation is to raise disciples; to inspire the next generation.
- 4:01At this Re-CHARGING Conference, you will meet many of our future
- 4:05professional and lay leaders. What an amazing group of people.
- 4:10We are in very good hands if we can figure out how to produce, and
- 4:15empower, more of them.
- 4:18The Reform Rabbinic Fellowship is currently in its third cohort.
- 4:23By now, 59 early-career Reform rabbis have spent an intensive year with us.
- 4:30Some of them are here today;
- 4:32make sure to speak with, and get to know, these terrific rabbis.
- 4:39We have had outstanding success in reinvigorating Birthright Israel in
- 4:45the Reform movement, leading hundreds of Reform Jews to Israel in the past
- 4:50few years, even during days of war.
- 4:55RAFI — the Reform Movement Alumnae for Israel — our effort to engage young
- 4:59adults — has expanded into eleven cities, reaching over 650 Reform alumnae.
- 5:08We are collaborating with the Tell Institute on developing a new curriculum
- 5:12for Jewish youth and adults, and will hear from Dr. Dara Horn and
- 5:17SWFS member, Jessica Levin, about new approaches to Jewish education
- 5:22in this era of pervasive hostility towards Jews and the Jewish state.
- 5:28Our ideas and opinions, expressed through podcasts and conventional and social
- 5:32media, have gained widespread traction.
- 5:36We meet all the time with visiting Israeli delegations of mayors and other
- 5:43politicians, journalists, influencers, IDF commanders and educators.
- 5:49As you saw a few minutes ago, Israeli leadership at the highest
- 5:52levels of government wants to help us.
- 5:56President Herzog telephoned me several weeks ago just to say that the State
- 6:01of Israel follows the work of Re-CHARGING Reform Judaism and Amplify Israel, and
- 6:06he asked how he, personally, can help.
- 6:11We have had numerous productive meetings with the Ministry of Diaspora
- 6:15Affairs, which is eager to support us.
- 6:19I want to take a moment to recognize the brilliant architect of all these
- 6:24efforts, Rabbi Tracy Kaplowitz.
- 6:27My
- 6:27life
- 6:31changed — and so
- 6:42did yours — when she joined our team.
- 6:50From the outset, we emphasized that we are of the Reform movement, by the Reform
- 6:58movement, and for the Reform movement.
- 7:02Most of us grew up in the movement, and we feel deep affection and loyalty
- 7:08to the institutions that educated and trained us, providing us the
- 7:13opportunity to devote ourselves fully to this marvelous vocation that has
- 7:18given immense meaning to our lives.
- 7:21It is love for Reform Judaism that generates our disappointment, pain and concern over
- 7:30what seems to many of us a loss of will to define
- 7:37and defend the values we uphold, at a time that urgently calls for moral
- 7:44clarity and institutional vigor.
- 7:48Among the most important initiatives of this Conference is the
- 7:52introduction of four resolutions.
- 7:55We will debate them today, and vote tomorrow.
- 7:59These resolutions put our convictions on the record, and state our expectations that
- 8:06the national institutions of our movement recognize, reflect, represent and
- 8:12implement the principles stated therein — all well-established ideological pillars
- 8:19anchoring Reform Judaism for decades.
- 8:24I want to thank the dozens of leaders who worked on the four resolutions addressing
- 8:28the centrality of Jewish peoplehood; the reinvigoration of spirituality, prayer
- 8:33and Jewish practice; innovative models of communal leadership; and the cultivation
- 8:40of Jewish learning and literacy. For
- 8:44the remainder of my time, I will devote myself principally to the
- 8:49resolution to strengthen Jewish peoplehood in the North American Reform movement.
- 8:56The 21st century will increasingly be defined by ideological commitment
- 9:01and communal loyalty to the centrality of Jewish peoplehood.
- 9:06In the words of the proposed resolution: “Judaism finds its fullest and most
- 9:11authentic expression through a vibrant and lived commitment to Jewish peoplehood.”
- 9:19While different approaches to halakha will continue to constitute
- 9:21a natural ideological divide between the Orthodox world and the rest
- 9:26of us who comprise the vast majority of the North American Jewish community - in reality, even
- 9:33these distinctions are diminishing and will continue to do so, due to the
- 9:38growing threats and challenges we face.
- 9:41For example, I can tell you that in the leadup to the New York City mayoral
- 9:48elections, those of us from Orthodox to Reform who defended Israel in the face
- 9:54of an onslaught of obnoxious opprobrium, found much more common ground — worked
- 10:03much more closely with each other — and felt much greater affinity one
- 10:09with the other — than with those in our own movements who promoted the
- 10:14anti-Zionist mayor of New York City.
- 10:18And what we often forget
- 10:21but ignore at our peril, is while our movement is a religious body, committed
- 10:28to God and Torah, much of the Jewish world expresses their Jewish identity in
- 10:33secular form through a fierce commitment to the Jewish people and the State of
- 10:38Israel, the most eloquent expression of Jewish peoplehood in our times.
- 10:45Many of these Jews are members of our synagogues.
- 10:48The religious teachings of Judaism do not exhaust the full
- 10:53content of Jewish civilization.
- 10:55It is the Jewish people that keeps Jewish civilization alive.
- 10:59If there are no Jews there is no Torah.
- 11:03The Jews do not derive their authority from rabbis.
- 11:07It is the opposite
- 11:10rabbis derive our authority from the Jews.
- 11:15We are under such immense ideological, political and communal pressure
- 11:19from both outside and within the Jewish community, that, in the words
- 11:25of the proposed resolution, there is an “urgency for clarity, courage
- 11:33and moral leadership regarding Reform Judaism’s enduring commitment
- 11:37to Zionism and Jewish peoplehood.”
- 11:41We cannot give in to those who would take us back to the days when our
- 11:46movement stripped all vestiges of Jewish peoplehood from Reform Judaism.
- 11:52We cannot succumb to those who preach a false philosophy of Jewish universalism
- 11:59that camouflages disdain for Jewish particularism under the guise of a
- 12:04sometimes sweeping, self-righteous, sanctimonious and suffocating
- 12:11misunderstanding of tikkun olam.
- 12:20Judaism is a blend of universalism and particularism
- 12:25eescha le’goy gadol — I will make of you a great nation — ve’nivrechu
- 12:30vecha kol mishpechot ha’a’dama — and all the families of the earth
- 12:35shall bless themselves through you.
- 12:37Judaism’s distinctive genius is in the balance — a kind of particular
- 12:44universalism, unique in religious thought.
- 12:48It is both the clarion call of Amos — “let justice roll down like water
- 12:54and righteousness like a mighty stream — and the clarion call of Amos
- 12:59I will restore My people, Israel.
- 13:01They shall rebuild ruined cities and inhabit them…
- 13:04and I shall plant them on their own soil, nevermore to be uprooted
- 13:08from the land I have given them.”
- 13:12Have you been following developments at the
- 13:16Brooklyn Park Slope Food Cooperative?
- 13:22This is a years-long effort on
- 13:24the part of liberal New Yorkers to help the needy and food insecure.
- 13:30It has been heavily supported and led by Jews — including our
- 13:34own Reform rabbinic colleagues.
- 13:37Yesterday — by a vote of 2:1 — the Cooperative voted to
- 13:42boycott Israeli food products.
- 13:45What should be our response?
- 13:49Looking back at the past years, can we say that we did everything we could in
- 13:58our interactions with Progressive partners to thwart the Boycott
- 14:03Divestment and Sanctions movement?
- 14:08And isn’t defending Israel and Judaism, itself — also tikkun olam?
- 14:25It is true that we are seeing worrying signs of a narrowing
- 14:31particularism in some quarters of the Jewish world and the Jewish state.
- 14:35Those elements of the Israeli government that represent a closed-minded
- 14:39chauvinistic particularism are an embarrassment to Israel and world Jewry.
- 14:49And the hooligans who violently assault Palestinians on the
- 14:53West Bank are a disgrace.
- 14:59It is Israel’s responsibility to thwart them, on pain of imprisonment, and
- 15:03it is our responsibility to say so.
- 15:09At the same time,
- 15:12while we may convince ourselves that the main problem in the Jewish
- 15:17world is a narrowing particularism
- 15:21the opposite may constitute an even greater challenge in the Diaspora:
- 15:26An expanding universalism threatening to eclipse Judaism’s
- 15:31fundamental command of ahavat Yisrael — love for the Jewish people.
- 15:36A universalism unmoored from particularism is not Jewish universalism.
- 15:43It is just universalism, of the non-Jewish kind.
- 15:50As Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver asserted in a classic address to the CCAR:
- 15:55In the case of Christianity, it was [Paul’s] insistence upon a religious
- 16:01creed entirely divorced from nation, [people], land or language…that finally
- 16:07placed the movement outside the sphere of Jewish life.”
- 16:14The anti-peoplehood philosophy of 20th century Reform Judaism threatened
- 16:19to do the same, Silver emphasized.
- 16:23We should heed this warning well.
- 16:25Given the growing hostility to Israel, especially in our circles, liberal and
- 16:32progressive spaces, it is not enough for us to proclaim our Zionist bona fides every
- 16:39now and again, often expressed defensively, and with so many qualifications,
- 16:44stipulations and modifications, that our enthusiasm for Zionism is buried
- 16:50under an avalanche of provisos.
- 16:54It is not enough to issue occasional press releases, or tweets, that
- 17:00we are a Zionist movement.
- 17:03We are the leaders.
- 17:05We must lead.
- 17:08We must be proactive.
- 17:11It is harder now.
- 17:13These are times that try our souls and test our convictions.
- 17:20Israel has been at war for two and half years.
- 17:24It is a war of self-defense, imposed upon Israel against its will,
- 17:29but no armed conflict, even the most justified, can be
- 17:32waged with complete precision.
- 17:35There has been widespread death, dislocation, and suffering
- 17:39throughout the Middle East.
- 17:41This, too, is a legitimate part of the story of the past two and a half years.
- 17:46Every loss of innocent life is a moral tragedy.
- 17:52Still, the reaction to October 7, and every day since, revealed the rot
- 18:02inside our most cherished Western institutions, moldering and spreading
- 18:08for years, infecting previously-healthy organs of our body politic.
- 18:15It is more than the disappointment we feel at the hypocrisy or moral failure
- 18:19of this or that university president — or head of school — or student union — or
- 18:24media personality — or religious or social justice leader, or squad of politicians.
- 18:30It is the entire philosophy of Western liberalism that is under assault.
- 18:39Increasingly we are living a surreal reality.
- 18:45More Jews are massacred in one day than any other day since the Holocaust — and
- 18:49immediately protests erupt against Jews!
- 18:54Israel is accused of genocide — an ancient blood libel dressed up
- 18:58for modern consumption - and the genocidal forces that launched
- 19:03this war are forgiven or forgotten.
- 19:08What these assassins did to our brothers and sisters, children, uncles and aunts,
- 19:14cousins, grandparents and friends in Israel, is what they would do to all
- 19:20of us if they only had the capability.
- 19:24The reason that 1200 innocent Israelis were slaughtered on that
- 19:27day, and not 12,000 or 120,000 — was not because of intent — but capacity.
- 19:38Their intent was to murder every Jew they could get their hands on.
- 19:44This was a bloodletting of savage and primordial rage — as bad and
- 19:53as wicked as the worst of the pogroms inflicted on our people.
- 20:01And had we found ourselves in those southern settlements on
- 20:06Simchat Torah morning, our liberalism would not have saved us.
- 20:12Lifelong peace activists were murdered and taken hostage.
- 20:17No one asked them what were their views.
- 20:21And therefore - we — especially we — liberals — must respond with clarity,
- 20:33courage and moral leadership.
- 20:37If not us, then who?
- 20:45It is harder now.
- 20:48These are times that try our souls and test our convictions.
- 20:54Israel has been ruled for most of the past 25 years by right-wing governments
- 20:58supported by ultra-Orthodox parties.
- 21:01For young American Jews, these governments are the only ones they know.
- 21:05And here in America, the Democratic party that two-thirds to three-quarters
- 21:10of American Jews have supported since the days of FDR, is turning against us.
- 21:16According to a recent NBC poll, two-thirds of Democratic voters sympathize more
- 21:22with Palestinians than with Israel.
- 21:25And according to a recent Harvard/Harris poll, nearly half of young
- 21:29Americans between the ages of 18-24 favor Hamas over Israel.
- 21:35Hamas!
- 21:38But precisely because it is harder now - we — especially we — liberals
- 21:47must respond with clarity, courage and moral leadership.
- 21:51If not us, then who?
- 21:55We cannot, ourselves, give credence to gaslighting efforts on the part
- 22:02of people who are not even Jewish — sometimes supported, wittingly
- 22:10or not, by fellow Jews — who seek to sever Zionism from Judaism.
- 22:17Precisely because it is harder now to contend with anti-Israel forces,
- 22:25and because much of the deterioration is expanding in our circles, liberal and
- 22:31progressive spaces, we have an obligation to summon all of our reservoirs of
- 22:38clarity, courage and moral leadership.
- 22:43In the words of the proposed resolution: “We call upon the Religious Action Center
- 22:49of Reform Judaism and all arms of Reform institutional life to ensure that their
- 22:58public advocacy, partnerships, and policy positions reflect and advance
- 23:06the movement’s enduring commitment to Zionism and Jewish peoplehood.”
- 23:21And “be it further resolved, that we affirm that our movement ensures
- 23:29that the pursuit of justice also includes the defense of our people — and that
- 23:38these commitments walk hand in hand.”
- 23:48It is not enough to say to each other, “look, see, we are a Zionist seminary,
- 23:55our students spend their first year in Israel, but our commitment to
- 24:00liberal education requires us to ordain anti-Zionists.” Under
- 24:05what theory of liberal education are we required to accept outcomes we
- 24:13did not intend, and do not want? It is not enough to
- 24:21say to each other, “we are a Zionist
- 24:33seminary,
- 24:38but liberal education requires us to accept bi-nationalism as a legitimate
- 24:44expression of Zionist thought.”
- 24:45Even the bi-nationalists would be offended by our
- 24:51including them on the spectrum of Zionism. It is not enough to say to each other, “we are a Zionist seminary but there
- 24:57is a distinction in our minds between self-determination and sovereignty”
- 25:03as if given the condition of the Jews there can be self-determination
- 25:08in the absence of sovereignty.
- 25:15Under what theory of liberal education is there a requirement on our part to even
- 25:24accept, let alone ordain, candidates for the rabbinate and cantorate who do
- 25:31not believe what our movement believes?
- 25:45Ours is a seminary, a sacred ordination,
- 25:50not a university graduate degree.
- 25:56It is not that they do not have the right to such beliefs, or that a community of
- 26:01Jews that seeks to hire such communal leaders does not have that right.
- 26:05This is America.
- 26:07Do what you want and God bless you.
- 26:11But why our movement?
- 26:12It is not what we believe.
- 26:15Over the course of the past three years, I have received queries regarding the
- 26:22authority of the Re-CHARGING Conference:
- 26:25On whose authority,” I am asked, “do we even convene, let alone, write
- 26:32papers, and now pass resolutions?”
- 26:38To clarify:
- 26:42this gathering has no constitutional authority over any institution of the Reform
- 26:47movement. But we are flesh of its flesh and bone of its bone.
- 26:56And therefore, I would reverse the question and ask: “On whose authority
- 27:03does our seminary, change decades of Reform theology, as expressed in numerous
- 27:08platforms and resolutions that do have constitutional authority, accepting,
- 27:13let alone, ordaining, anti-Zionists?”
- 27:32And therefore, I hope that tomorrow we approve the resolution:
- 27:40Be it resolved
- 27:43that we call upon HUC-JIR to cultivate and expect a deep, informed and
- 27:53lived engagement with, and commitment to, Jewish peoplehood, Zionism and
- 28:01the State of Israel among all those pursuing ordination and professional
- 28:07leadership within the Reform movement.”
- 28:18And be it further resolved
- 28:22that “we expect that all candidates for HUC-JIR’s educational programs
- 28:27rabbinical, cantorial, educational and nonprofit management — will be
- 28:32committed to a Zionism that echoes the commitments of Reform Zionism.”
- 28:44These are decades-long commitments on our part.
- 28:49Do we still agree with them or not?
- 28:54If we do, then in these perilous times we should express our beliefs with “clarity,
- 29:04courage and moral leadership regarding Reform Judaism’s enduring commitment
- 29:09to Zionism and Jewish peoplehood” — and enforce our beliefs across the board.
- 29:19If we do not agree,
- 29:23explain why you disagree, why you think we should now change our decades-long
- 29:32hard-won values and commitments - and let us debate and reexamine our principles.
- 29:41But remember:
- 29:44we have already engaged in a fierce fifty-year debate about Zionism and
- 29:50peoplehood in the 20th century, that almost ruptured the movement and
- 29:55led to the establishment of a competing liberal seminary next door — the
- 29:59Jewish Institute of Religion. History
- 30:08has already established
- 30:12that an anti-Zionist philosophy is not only catastrophic for the Jewish
- 30:18people — an abysmal misreading of history - but will be emphatically
- 30:26rejected by the vast majority of the world’s Jews.
- 30:38We must be careful not to overly-intellectualize our approach.
- 30:46We must feel the heart, the spirit, the pulse of our people.
- 30:53And besides, intellectuals are often wrong.
- 31:00In 2021, the American Jewish Archives published a fascinating article about the
- 31:06two great historians of the 20th century, Jacob Rader Marcus and Salo Baron.
- 31:12Marcus was described as “the dean of American Jewish historians.”
- 31:17He authored more than 300 books and articles.
- 31:21And Salo Baron was described as “the greatest Jewish
- 31:23historian of the 20th century.”
- 31:26Both knew everything.
- 31:30Alas, both were wrong about Germany.
- 31:36Both advised German Jews to stay and wait out the Nazis.
- 31:43They both thought as intellectuals.
- 31:48Baron wrote: “There is no reason to despair of the survival of German Jewry.”
- 31:56Marcus wrote that “the Jewish genius for survival” will
- 31:59manifest itself in Germany.”
- 32:01Liberalism is still alive even in the lands of fascist and national socialist control.
- 32:07A new age will dawn for Central Europe where the Jew will be
- 32:10accepted as an equal, as a simple human being among his fellowmen.”
- 32:16Asked in 1981 to comment on his earlier views, Marcus responded:
- 32:24all that was proved wrong was one paragraph
- 32:31three lines.
- 32:33All the rest was correct.”
- 32:37Okay, maybe…
- 32:40but even so
- 32:43those three lines were pretty important, wouldn’t you say?
- 32:48This I believe:
- 32:51The third Jewish state will be the last.
- 32:55Israel’s destruction would lead to our disappearance as well.
- 33:01The Jewish people cannot survive a Middle East Holocaust less than a
- 33:05century after the European Holocaust.
- 33:08Even now, more than eighty years later, we have still not
- 33:14recovered our pre-War numbers.
- 33:16There are fewer Jews living in the world today than on September 1, 1939.
- 33:24Anti-Zionism is a monstrous ideology of destruction that contravenes every
- 33:31principle of liberalism we hold dear.
- 33:36Of course, we have an obligation to discuss what we mean by Zionism.
- 33:41We have an interest to establish the biggest possible tent.
- 33:44I am a liberal pluralist, and I believe in big tents.
- 33:49But even liberal pluralists have boundaries.
- 33:54If you believe everything, you believe nothing.
- 33:58If the North American Reform movement, in word or in deed, by action or silence,
- 34:12becomes, in fact, or even in perception, an anti-Zionist, anti-particularistic movement
- 34:23that cares only, or mostly, about universal concerns, unanchored in, and unmoored from,
- 34:32the centrality of Jewish peoplehood - most American Jews will abandon us — as they
- 34:38would have in the 20th century had history not forced us to come to our senses.
- 34:46A diaspora community
- 34:49that disengages from Israel, where half of the remnants of
- 34:55our people lives, has no future.
- 34:59Such a community will eventually wither away and, at best, constitute a footnote
- 35:06in the annals of Jewish civilization.
- 35:10Any seminary that either in word or deed — in principle or impression
- 35:22acquires the reputation of being hostile to Zionism — a seminary
- 35:27that ordains anti-Zionist clergy — has no future in America.
- 35:41If we marginalize ourselves from the mainstream of our people, the
- 35:47Jewish people and the Jewish state will continue without us, and it
- 35:54is we who will be remembered only in books and learned articles, a
- 36:01testament to a good idea gone awry, a haunting psalm to what might have been.
- 36:11At the beginning of the Book of Exodus, before Moses was called to leadership,
- 36:18the Torah describes this prince of Egypt’s first encounter with Hebrew slaves:
- 36:24Va’yigdal Moshe — and Moses grew up
- 36:29va’yetze el echav — and he went out unto his brethren
- 36:33va’yar be’sivlotam — and he saw their suffering.
- 36:40The preeminent commentator, Rashi, effectively asked: “If he went out to
- 36:45his brethren do we need to be told that he saw their suffering? Since he had
- 36:52eyes — obviously, he saw their suffering.”
- 36:55Rashi responded: “He directed his heart and eyes towards them so
- 37:01that he would suffer along with them.”
- 37:06We, the leaders of the North American Reform movement, have an
- 37:11obligation to teach our congregants and our students — with clarity,
- 37:18courage and moral leadership:
- 37:23Direct your hearts and your eyes towards your people.
- 37:29Feel their spirit,
- 37:32their pulse, their soul.
- 37:37If they rejoice, rejoice with them.
- 37:43And if they are suffering — suffer with them. Mourn with them.
- 37:50Support them. Help them. Free them.
- 37:59Redeem them.
- 38:17What you heard was just the beginning of the discussion.
- 38:20If you're interested in hearing more, video from the conference is posted
- 38:24on our website at SWFS dot ORG slash watch.
- 38:30And in the coming months, we hope that the resolutions we passed will begin to
- 38:34impact on our movement and beyond…
- 38:37Until next time, this is IN THESE TIMES…