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The Putting Stroke Stopped Evolving 50 Years Ago, Ep. 3 · Putting Is Fun

• speaker-1: For an R Classic John Rooter, you can find your center, be a straight shooter, train yourself to respect the three-footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rollin' puts will surely be fair. Putt, putt, putt, it's just like it seems. You can drift away and chill in a dream. Putt with your rose, go soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun. speaker-0: Yes it is. Brian Manzella and John Ortega on your favorite putting podcasts. Putting is fun, episode number three. We've had a lot of fun doing one and two, and it's ninety five degrees here in New Orleans. What about you out there in Costa Mesa, mister Johnny? speaker-1: It is sixty five and today it's gonna be a boiling eighty degrees. Boil speaker-0: About them apples. That's awesome. You know, I I really had the intention of wearing some like really neat t-shirts, you know, to do this this thing and keeping with the beachy vibe. But when I was getting dressed this morning and realizing my last lesson was gonna put me right up against going to Friday dinner with my pretty wife Lisa, I said, Well, I could wear Travis Matthew quarterzip and the matching. Holo and you know a little Costa Mesa history on the company. speaker-1: Yes. It's ⁓ actually Long Beach, but ⁓ close enough. There's a guy named Travis Travis Johnson. He played golf at UCLA, good guy. He started the company with a number of other people, don't know all their names. I think a guy named Kruger was the money guy behind it. And then they brought in a guy named Travis Brasher. He became the president CEO. And over time, Travis Johnson got, you know, pushed aside and Travis ⁓ Brasher, he you know, helped the company grow to where it was, is rather, and sold to Callaway. And he ended up going back to the Huntington Club where he was once ⁓ the head pro and he headed up a group that bought the lease on the course. So he went from being the head pro getting yelled at by the members, but to being the head honcho guy going, Hey, this is what we're doing, buddy. So so he he completely flipped it for himself. I think he I think he felt pretty good about it. speaker-0: The only thing that I have that's remotely close to that is ⁓ also someone who I don't know about either of those Travises being good putters, but one of the best putters that I ever knew that I played a lot of golf with is my dear friend Brent White. Okay, so what what is his Travis Matthew type story? So Brent White worked for Stan Stopper, who I mentioned in a in a previous episode, was the best player in New Orleans for Twenty years, one ⁓ USGA Public Lynx, one ⁓ you know, NCAA Division Two is it all or regular all American, made you know, all American that that senior year. And he played more tour schools than McElgrady by a few. And he never did get in. He missed by one twice in the finals, which'll which will will stunt your growth. So anyway, Brent worked as a high schooler. As Stan's assistant at Audubon Golf Club, which is a public golf course as much as it's called a club. At the old Audubon. So they re-redid the whole course, built a new clubhouse, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, Brent was very, very mature for his age, and also holds the record for the lowest nine-hole score in the history of New Orleans high school golf with a 29 on the City Park North course, which is pretty easy. It's not that easy. And it's also if If you're gonna shoot six under, you you you you probably have to give me nine five footers because the greens are not that good. So he's just a good putter and he went to school in Fort Worth. I don't know, SMU, TCU, I should know by now. I've known him since I started teaching him when he was 14 years old. But he goes there and he he he had always heard of Shady Oaks. So he goes to Shady Oaks and he applies for a job. He you know. Talks to Mike Wright, who is the head pro, and he says, I'll do anything. You know, I'll clean the carts, I'll park car, whatever. He said, Man, we're we're we're full up. You know, I'm sorry. And he says, Okay, well just you know, please keep me in mind. I don't care what it is, you know, I'll work on the maintenance crew, but you I I'm I wanna, you know, move up to the pro shop. He says, I'll start start wherever. I don't remember exactly the story at this point, but I don't think Mike Right, let him get that far. I don't know if he stopped him before he got to the parking lot or he called him the next day, but it was like, this guy is too put together for a college freshman and he's got the right background. I I need to hire him whether I really need him or not. So he started in the bag room. And if you're any good in the golf business, you will move and and you're at the right place. And believe me, Shady was the right place. And by the way, Ben Hogan, fame most famous member, is Alive and well while all this is going on. And so Brent moved up from the bag room to whatever the outside staff head and then, you know, third assistant, second assistant, first assistant, head pro when Mike Wright became the PGA general manager. And then while he was head pro, for whatever unknown reason, except the man upstairs moving the pieces around, Brett never got a really good offer to be a you know head pro director of golf someplace else. And one of the members was in the banking business and was starting a concierge bank bank and thought Brent would be perfect for the job, didn't have any bank and back background, hired him, taught him the business. He became president of the bank. And as we speak right now, is also became a member. They bought him a membership at Shady Oaks, Fort Worth, Texas. And as we speak right now, he is the president of the club. So he literally went. Literally went from the bagroom to the boardroom. How about those apples? And a very good butter to very good to great. So that's that he was always sort of an answer guy, you know, it's an answer style. And maybe he had a Scotty, maybe he had, you know, some other, you know, probably had a John Byron at some point. speaker-1: What did he use? speaker-0: I know, I know there was a a bunch of them floating around, real good friends with Tom Bartlett. We got to play in a in a gamble scramble a few years ago. I think right before COVID. I think we finished second or third. Was it it was a lot of fun. Just a good dude all together. And he does one of the very best Don Villa Vaso imitations. So he will definitely be on the show at some point when we start adding ⁓ guests. So what we were doing. In ⁓ a little bit of the first show and definitely in the second show for sure, is I come up with these five elements of what what there is to putting. And since we're you know in the early episodes of the show, this is something we hope that people could, you know, go back and look at. And ⁓ so here they are. The putty, that's you, the golfer, you know, your body, your thought process, how you stroke, right? Maybe how you see things. The putter, what what are you putting with? Right. The ball. So I I got some tour balls from from ⁓ Callaway because they messed up an order for me and they were sending logo overruns, but they sent me like Nicholson or Patrick Reed or Sam Burns' Chrome Soft Tour X pluses. And you can't even find those online on eBay. They're very sticky. So I did a shoot for the Brian Manzella YouTube show. By the time y'all see this, there'll be a couple episodes of that out there. And the cameraman who plays golf, he's just a your regular, you know, 10, 15 handicapped golfer. He's feeling the ball and it's stickier, John. The ball is stickier than a regular ball. Like it had like, and I think it would spin more, and it would also wear out faster. So the ball is a is a factor. The putting green, the putting green at Costa Mesa. And the putting green at City Park when I grew up, the practice putting green of those two golf courses, nothing alike. And the hole, what are you putting to? Right? How it's cut, you know, does it have a liner? Does it have the white tour paint? Does it have nothing? Is it two weeks old and it's growing in and you couldn't fit a four-inch steel, you know, hole-sized little template in there? So we were talking about the golfer, and today we're gonna talk about the act. Actual stroke. So what do you think, John? Give us sort of the evolution as much as you know it from the Harry Varden, Bobby Jones days putting stroke on obviously greens that were slow and the putters were different. To to, you know, up to when the when when all of a sudden putters were heavier. We talked about that in the last show. Putters got heavier for reasons, but What about the stroke historically? H how did it evolve ⁓ over the years? speaker-1: Well, if you look at ⁓ the films of the old putters, the guys putting in in days past, they look like they're crouched over a little bit more and they've got their, you know, like palm or knees together and they kind of flip their wrists around a little bit. And I think a lot of that was helpful for them to be able to get the ball up in the air 'cause the grass had a little bit more s length to it. And it also helped them get enough energy on the ball to get it to the hole. That's what speaker-0: If I went and got a is it calamity? If I went and got a a remake, there's some good ones out there. You have to pay, you know, a bunch of money. If I went and you put it on the machine and measured it, how much loft did those putters have? speaker-1: Calamity Jane. Yeah. Just going by memory because I've had a few, and I have like I think it's a called a bet Becky Ralston or Belk something Ralston. They're probably somewhere around seven degrees, about seven. So they're little little tiny chippers. They're cool. They're really, really cool. They're light and ⁓ I'll I'll bring one in. I've I've got one at home or two, maybe two. I actually have in my car I have a Frank Sinatra invitational bag that has a couple. speaker-0: That's he wrong. speaker-1: wood shafted putters. One of them is a Callaway, the one that was designed by Tony Manzoni. Yep. And and then also an Odie Chrisman. It's one with like a little square shaft. It's super, super cool. I love wood putters by the way. They're not they're not great for using, but just to look at, they're I just I love think yeah, they're good. speaker-0: So you got this you got these greens, they're kinda slow, hairy greens. You got you got a seven degree putter, you gotta give it a little pop, right? So they're using a little more wrist. Maybe the putter was shorter too, no, about the same length. speaker-1: I think there were thirty-four, sometimes thirty-five. I I seem to remember they were maybe a little bit shorter, thirty-four inches, thirty-four and a half. I don't think they're full thirty-five, or especially like like an old ping thirty five, which was thirty five and a half. So they they were they were definitely a little bit shorter on average. They might have had them customized too. I I have some Kenneth Smiths that are, you know, different lengths. Kenneth Smith. ⁓ we're gonna I have Kenneth Smith. speaker-0: We're gonna have some fun on the when we talk about speaker-1: ⁓ my god, where do you see this Kenneth Smith putter that I have? It has to be a one-off. It has like a ⁓ the lines on top like a zebra. It is unbelievable. So cool. And it has a wood grip. I love wood, by the way. So it has a wood grip that has knurling on it. It's it's it's beyond. It's sick. It's great. But go on. So where where are we? speaker-0: So if you look at the if you look at the the Bobby Jones, a lot of footage of Bobby Jones putting 'cause he was a great putter. And then you you you realize that he he quit playing basically in thirty, but he played at a lot of masters. He also played in that Hail America Open in a senior division, the one that Hogan won in forty two, that they don't let him count as a US Open. He shot sixty two at Ridgemore in Chicago. I think I got all that right. Anyway. So he kept playing. But if you go back and look at Grand Slam, Bobby Jones putting, making putts, and then you look at Arnold Palmer and Billy Casper putt, let's say, in the 60 Masters, which I think is that that is available on Masters.com, the stroke didn't change that much, but I feel like the golf courses probably changed a decent amount, no? speaker-1: I I would bet. I mean, I wasn't there for that, but just looking at the film footage and the way the ball rolled across the green, it looked like it was hugging the ground a little bit better. You know, when you look at ⁓ film footage of Bobby Locke putting, and things bouncing all over the place. So as as time's gone on, as everybody could imagine, the agronomy's gotten better and everything just kind of stays on the ground a little bit more. And it it doesn't stay on the ground as much as you think sometimes, especially you get on Poana or you get some some surfaces that get beat up because of the weather, it might be. wet and the footprints ⁓ make indentations, blah blah blah. And they get that worm cam and you see the ball bouncing. You know, it's it's ⁓ it's not as pure of a surface always as you might think. But I'm I'm sure back in the day those things were bouncing like all all over the place. speaker-0: Golf course that I grew up on, you know, like started playing on, the City Park Junior course. And then the course that I played once I graduated from the junior course, and they closed it when I was 15, to the East Course, that's where all the money games were and all that. Those two courses comprised all of the City Park number one course that they played 15 New Orleans Opens between 1938 and 62. And all the famous players played it. Ho, you know, Hogan and Nelson, and I think they finished one, two. I think one year Hogan, Nelson, and Sneed finished one, two, three. So that's what it was a good golf course, really good. WPA that the best designers and the best probably construction guys, and it was it was great. Common Bermuda, you have never lived. Until you've putted for money on common Bermuda. You would have putts going uphill if the grain was going that way. So they were still putting on common Bermuda on tour in the you know around 1960. Now I think you know that whatever the heck they were putting on in Augusta was different. Maybe that's why it didn't change that much, because the grass really didn't change that much. But At some point, by the time, you know, 1975, I've been playing, I guess, three or four years, wristless putting was a thing. So what is your recollection of how it changed to much less wrists and more of an arm and shoulder stroke, and whether it was Almost everybody was putting with the wrist as if you moved your arms, you were making a mistake. I I've read that in books where any arm movement side to side was considered boo boo. Taboo and boo-boo. You could have two two dogs. John's a dog guy. He's got a bunch of dogs, and it and him and his wife walk dogs, you know, for people. So you could have two new dogs and call them boo-boo and voodoo. speaker-1: I'll I'll I'll keep that in mind. Keep that in mind. I would think you I think when you started looking at guys like Crenshaw, Crenshaw had his arms really, really extended. He had a little bit of play in his wrist, but it kinda looked more rigid. It didn't ha it and he moved his arms. You could see clearly he moved his arms. He moves his arms and he moved his shoulders. ⁓ yeah, as long as I as as far as I can remember, yes. George Archer kinda demonstrated that. And it's just it just became a thing where speaker-0: So what maybe change? Bob Charles. speaker-1: The best putters were doing it. And just like in any other sport, you know, you look at what the best are doing and people are in influenced by that. Like, well, that sounds like a or seems like a good idea. I think I'll do it. And so then then guys like Lauren Roberts came along and and you would figure he had no movement in his wrist. He was super, super rigid or just immovable in in that sense. The boss. ⁓ Yeah, he was he was amazing. He was really, really good. So you just get more and more guys that are doing it, and so it just prevailed. So e even now, you know, there there are a couple of guys that remain that have some risk. Like if you look at Snedeker, he looks like he's the throwback from wherever, you know, the the fifties or the forties, just like who snaps it. But you know, I've got putting strokes, you know, ⁓ from Jason Day to Chris Goddard up, you bunch bunch of the guys that are current right now, and there's very little risk movement. If so we put a hack motion on them, they're probably gonna mi move at like two degrees, maybe. speaker-0: Wow. So so but then you had sort of in the in the you know kind of and in between there was the George Lowe, not just the putter, George Lowe putter, but the George Lowe stroke. This is one of my I I I think I can boil down my Nicholas questions to five. I have a real good chance because I was just up on Long Island with my buddy Michael Jacobs, and he was teaching someone who can, I'm not gonna give away who the person was, but he can get us an audience. With Mr. Jack. So this would be the only putting question. How much of the stroke that you made, Jack? Well, how much of the stroke that everybody knows of the Jack Nicholas stroke was what you did, maybe that Jack Grout taught you when you were 10 years old, or you came up with on your own. And how much was influenced by other people who gave you some putting help, including the infamous America's guest, George Lowe? You know much about George Lowe and his putting stroke and his ability to putt, Mr. Ortega? speaker-1: I know some. I I re read his book. I think it was called George Lou, the Master of Putting or something, and to that end I got speaker-0: I gotta run one of those down on eBay. I need that. speaker-1: Need it. Yeah. Yeah, I loaned it to somebody and they never returned it. So I'll get one of those again. I think he I think you can get those pretty easily. I don't think they're super rare. But he you know, he had some some thoughts about the putting stroke. Like he wasn't really big on low putting strokes and he wasn't really big on ⁓ just a lot of different things. He I think he was more about ⁓ just seeing the putt and getting good rhythm. And he had a couple couple pretty cool ⁓ tips. He said for slower greens, just grip the club firmer. So he he had some, you know, George Lowe isms that they seem to hold hold water. Every once in a while I pull one out. But ⁓ the one thing that I do do that he used to do is he used to bet people that he could kick a ball and beat ⁓ with their putter. And so I've gotten pretty good at kicking balls and I don't really speaker-0: Reasonable. I'm reasonable. I'm ⁓ I'm in the in the in the kicking world I'm about a five. I'm about a five. Depends on the shoes. Very important. The shoes are speaker-1: Well yeah. So when I was younger I used to dress like a golf pro. I'd wear this, you know, the press slacks and the collared shirt and tuck in my belt or tuck in my pants and or my my shirt and have the belt and the whole thing, right? White foot white. No, I I usually went went black or brown. I w I wasn't too much of a white guy. If I was wearing wearing white, it'd be tennis shoes. If I didn't wear white tennis shoes and use an eighty eight ⁓ two and you wanted to putt you might as well just give me your money right away. Back then. It's just like g just give me your money, right? speaker-0: F Whitefoot Joyce. speaker-1: But anyhow, so I would just kick the ball because I'd heard about George Lowe getting pretty good at that. And I'd wear these, you know, foot joy shoes that had a little bit of a square toe. And I was pretty darn good. And every every once in a while I'd give a putting lesson. The guy was getting too in his head about his stroke. And I'd just say, hey, a good putter can putt with their foot. And it was like, what do you mean by that? And I'd kick a ball. I remember this one distinctly. There's a guy named Dennis Norrin. And he played at USC with ⁓ I don't know, Stadler or some some of those guys. And so so I kicked the 30-footer and had maybe Made me three foot a break and went right in the center goes, Okay, just tell me what I need to do. So but any other speaker-0: used I have used a similar especially with with kids I I've used a similar tact with my ⁓ kicked kick putting but but anyway let's let's go back to Nicholas I I th I've never seen George Lowe I've never seen a George Lowe stroke I don't know if he got him to bend to the right as much as Nicholas did and kind of look at the almost looking at the ball and the putter and the hole at the same time but the whole idea that Nicholas's stroke was such a right arm pushing stroke to me that idea is a little exaggerated. Do you s did you see Jack as just a right arm pusher? speaker-1: Well, I think everybody has a little bit of a right arm push if it's going back across their body, but I mean a little bit. It's there's gonna be I think, I don't know, you tell me. Give me give me speaker-0: There's people that think that it's the only thing. And and and by the way, I never thought anything but this. I think if you took, you know, a hundred people who'd never played golf, they've probably been to some putt putt place, you know, even though the real putt putt places are there's I think there's less than 20 in the whole country. And then probably at some point there was a thousand. Talking about putt-putt go, you know, putt-putt golf. And then now it it became putt-putt golf and games. And as soon as you start going to the games. Putting is less important. And now, you know, you you go to some place like Orlando and International Drive, and they have these things that that that Jake Knapp and Tiger Woods could have a putting contest and they might play 18 holes without a one. You got me? If if Jake Knapp and Tiger Woods go with a time machine to Veterans Highway right here in Metary, the main drag, and go to the putt-putt golf, they had a tour. You know, the professional putt had the guy, the ace machine. I don't know what his real name was. But I guarantee you they would between them, they would make 15 aces on the hardest of the five courses because they were all designed that you could make a pot. You know, you there was a place, there was several probably, but there was a there was a bank shot. There was a way to make it. And you go to some of these courses where they put the bricks on the side and the artificial turf and whatever. So, so anyway, George Low putting. So Dave Adell. Right. So Dave Adell is is definitely if you write the history of putting, you you you get to Dave Adell at some point. And we'll we could talk, we get Dave on here one day. But but Dave who did he work for that he developed? Was it Kirk Curry that he developed the the the fitting system for? Is that speaker-1: If he didn't work for him, they were similar. So I w you know I I don't know that for a fact, but you saying that I'd I'm I'm gonna agree because it was similar 'cause they they'd have designs that would help you align the face to the the the speaker-0: Yeah, so his his basic theory back in the day before he started making putters and then when he made putters was that you the putter would influence the aim. And we're not gonna go into that at all because that's that's another show. But he he at some point the company went a couple different ways. He made irons, he did everything. I think the coors, you know, beer people bought the company from him. He's completely out like Roger Cleveland was for a while with Cleveland Gulf. You know, it's your name, but you're not Part of the deal anymore. And he did a presentation, John, two or three years ago in Scottsdale for a top 100 summit. And he's now fully on teaching everybody to Nicholas Putt, basically. And speaker-1: And then did did he did he ⁓ claim that it's a lot of right arm piston? speaker-0: Well, yeah, but I mean he didn't he doesn't call it Nicholas Putting, he just calls it right arm putting and he he measures you and gets your how your arms hang and how much internal and external rotation you can do, and then he devises this right arm stroke for you. And I'm not saying, you know, because I I really feel like if you lined a bunch of people up, like I was saying a second ago, and I always go up the wrong road and never come back. But if you got a hundred people and you had to, you know, like have a contest, yeah, you you got a hundred Johnny, I got a hundred, and Dave. Well, d David Dell, ⁓ he's he's gonna do what I would do. So, but you know, you got David Orr and you know, whoever, and you just got a putting contest. Everybody's gonna teach him one method. I think the Nicholas method would help a lot of people. You know, I think people can, you know, you don't have to get your arms as far across your body, you don't have to move your back muscles as much. And but it so it it's not dying. The golfing machine had one of the putting variations was you know like a piston putting variation, the putt stroke or the paw stroke. I don't I don't remember. I remember asking Bobby Clampett, is it a putt or a paw? Stroke at English term way before I taught there and he was playing in the tournament he wanted to hit me with the putter. Talk about Bobby. speaker-1: ⁓ By the way, when you when you're talking about David Adele and making irons, you know it you know whose irons he made? speaker-0: Well i he copied fall though for a while. speaker-1: No, no, no, no, no. The one length irons that Bryson was using when he almost won the Masters as as an amateur, those were David Adele irons. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, no, no, no. My dear friend Marek Teminsky and I t you know my best young player, Nick, you know, and you've helped with his putting stroke before, John. Merrick, I think still his gamers are Adele one single length. So anyway, okay, so now you got the Nicholas putting, and then Crenshaw and George Archer and Bob Charles, they're kind of shoulder and arm putters. And now nobody's putting like Bobby Locke or Billy Casper, except Billy Casper's still playing, so he's putting like Billy Casper. speaker-1: Yeah, yes. speaker-0: But there really wasn't a whole lot of evolution that I saw in the putting stroke. Like that's pretty much when I was playing college golf to now, which is we we're looking at 50 years now. So in 50 years, the stroke really hasn't evolved that much, even though you have ⁓ more ways to measure it, right? More ways to teach it, ⁓ more decent training aids. And it doesn't seem to wanna ⁓ evolve into any other direction, why do you figure that is? Because we got closest to optimal or what what's the the 50 before that, let's say. That they go back 50 and and you look at those guys on tour 50 years ago to now, especially 40, would put us in what 86? Okay, let's go to 96. Let's go to the Tiger Woods 97 Masters. And then the next Masters next year. Right? That's that's 30 years, right? Those thirty look a lot like now. You go back thirty from there, you're in sixty-seven. It don't eighty-seven and or or ninety-seven and sixty-seven don't look anything alike, and thirty-seven and sixty-seven look more alike than so they had the big C change at some point. Why do you figure it hasn't done that much change in the last thirty? speaker-1: Well, I th I think that once once Crenshaw and the guys that you know developed that more wrestl stroke were doing that and and putting well and everybody else you know adopted that. I don't know that there's anything that you could do other than put the club up your left arm like Bernhard Langer did or now Bryson does to change that too much. But what I think has changed a little bit and hopefully if there are some guys that teach golf to come on here just to kind of geek out on golf, absolutely we'll ⁓ start advocating to their students. There used to be this ⁓ I don't know what you want to call it in the wives tale or kind of a bad idea to take a short backswing and then accelerate through. So short backswing, accelerate through. Yes. And when they started looking at the best putters, they didn't really do that. There might be some guys that go a little bit farther through than they go back, but it isn't like anything like super slow back and then fast through, right? It's more like a swing set on a playground, you go so whatever you get on the back swing, you know fall through, right? So I think that would be the only thing in putting instruction that's been ⁓ that's come to light that might have you know been changed since like in the sixties. Cause I when I when I first started golf, it was like nineteen seventy ish. That was around. And I I actually tried it and I put horribly that way that way. And so I I just stopped thinking about it. No, no, no. No, just you know, short backswing and push it through. speaker-0: Risk putting. Short, long, yeah, yeah, except around I've known some good putters. George Airline was an African American guy. I hope he's still around. ⁓ haven't seen George in a number of years, but Geor George played in the national public links, so he qualified, was basically a golf hustler. And he would he would go down to Miami and he would go all the way up to New York, you know, as the weather got, you know, better. And then when he pi picked all the pigeons Took all the pigeons' money, you would come home and try to take mine, which was easy to do. Because that guy, I can't, I mean it's if if you talk about somebody putting with a short backswing, a long foul through, I can remember vividly one of the last times we played, we're playing the old East course. So, I mean, that's at least 10 years ago. And he's got about a 40 footer, and he's he's making practice strokes where he's taking it back three inches. For a 40-foot putt on greens that are seven and just going, whoo! And he didn't quite putt that much acceleration, but it was a decent amount. And what comes to mind when you're, you know, smartening everybody up, including me, is two particularly world-class putters. I would say at some point in time, I want to put a year on this now, 88. Okay, so where was Tiger in eighty eight? He was still just a little junior golfer bothering you in the store? speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ that sounds about right. What what's Tiger now? Fifty ish? Has he turned fifty yet? Yeah. So fifty if you do the math backwards, what would that be? Fifty to to two thousand, that's twenty six years ago. And then you go ten before that, thirty six, and so you'd have been fourteen, thirty you somebody's ten or when he was when he speaker-0: Close. He was winning probably his first US junior and I've seen video of that. Him and a guy who played at LSU with, among other people, David Toms, Frederick Lindgren, Michael Finney, Charles Rawlerson, Perry Moss, they were all there at the same time, was a guy named Greg Lesher who got more than a cup of coffee. I think he played two or three years on the PGA tour. And he was the best putter I had ever seen in person. And the Tiger stroke that really didn't change that much from that first US junior to that last US amateur, that's a six year period of time, was much more really arms frozen, wrists frozen, and a long follow-through with the wrists still like that. And that's how Lessher put it. They almost had some of that grip walk that I don't like very much. You know, they kind of walked it back in both directions. Tiger, by the time Tiger won that last Masters a few years back, he was much more confined stroke. Did you see that same evolution in in Tiger Stroke? And and and do you think maybe that some of the evolution is like ⁓ just a tiger is a microcosm of that? It's a little change from the you know 1988. speaker-1: Well, I have an ⁓ opportunity to talk to Tiger about how he ⁓ looked at his putting stroke, what he thought, but I don't quite remember as well as you do the the tiger stroke from US Junior through, you know, the US amateur wins. But I did see his putting stroke, you know, on tour when he was, you know, in the in his heyday, like in the nineties, early ⁓ excuse me, late nineties and two thousand-ish. Sure. You know, it look it looked like it was fairly fast. It didn't look like it was like any kind of slow. And it was very efficient or confined. It didn't look like it had a whole lot of length to it. speaker-0: So he had already probably sh shrunk it a hair. speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ yeah. And then and then the the ⁓ the butt of the club didn't do ⁓ what'd you what'd you call that? speaker-0: Walk if the top if the the you know the the the top of the grip cap walking back and forward so he'd already gotten rid of that. So when do you figure on a you know like everybody who's a golf pro that goes to seminars and I probably need the nation in that and as I I like to say there's no tour for for going to the most seminars. There's no contest and there's no prize. You get a kick in the rear end, that's what you get. The Sam Putlab guy, what's his name? speaker-1: Christian Marcourt. speaker-0: At some point he measured Tiger, you know, with all the face rotations, but at some point he had to measure Tiger first. When do you figure on the stopwatch, not the stopwatch, but the calendar? Have a calendar on this Apple Ultra 2. When do you figure that was the first time that Tiger was on the Putlab sample? speaker-1: Well, probably at about the time that he was working with Hank Caney, if I were to guess. That's that's what I've heard, you know. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, I'd say about then. That would be speaker-0: Five ish, you know, something like that. Do you think do you think there was any evolution that happened from I guess Christian did the probably did the ⁓ capture or somebody else did? speaker-1: Don't know. Probably I I would guess it'd have been Hank. I think he had one or I think that what was his name? Marius Fulmut or he came out with a copy. There's some ⁓ infamous story about him and the Sam Putt lab and you know, these disagreements and whatever with with that. But you know, he he I think he was part of that team at one point. So it might have been him. I don't know. I'm I'm just this is pure guess, so don't don't hold me to it. But the the report that's out there it shows a lot of face rotation. speaker-0: Seven degrees open, seven degrees closed. So seven here, back to somewhat square, and then seven more going through, something like that. speaker-1: Some of I think it was pretty symmetrical, but the face aim at at address was really open, at least if if this one is correct. I don't have any reason to believe that it wasn't. I could talk to David Orr about it. One of the things that was, you know, were really interesting was the ⁓ rate of rotation. Like they measured it in like feet per second or whatever it is, meters per second. It was super, super high. And but if you looked at him when he when he hit putts, it did look like the face didn't turn very much at all. But I think that that was, you know, the measurement is. It's based on how fast the f the the ⁓ face is rotating in a minute, like an RPM thing, right? So let's say if you took a whole minute to make that stroke, the revolutions per minute's gonna be slower than if you only took like a blink, right? So he he did rotate the face, but I don't think it was as violent as that machine would indicate based on the way they report. So so sometimes I think you need to be careful about. you know, looking at those raw and raw numbers, you need to consider things like just like what I said there. If he takes ⁓ less than six tenths of a second to take a backstroke, like five eight or something like that. I I have his numbers, five nine or something. Like five fifty-nine one hundredths of a second to go back and then twenty-nine one hundredths of a second to to the top from the top of the back. So it's it's pretty pretty staccato. It's like bang bang, right? You know so so you gotta be careful about how you interpret those things. But if you look at The interesting thing was the the line that was drawn for his path was pretty darn straight and very, very consistent. So everything like the the the way that ⁓ the Sam Putt lab measures and then gives you a score for certain elements like face rotation, for ⁓ timing, which is like how long it takes to go back and through, blah, blah, blah. Th they give you a like a percentage grade. And and in Tiger's case, the rotation grade was really low. But the consistency was like everything was like super consistent. So when you look at people that putt well, they they generally do things, you know, fairly consistent. I think that's true of like full swing too. You know, but you can't be perfectly consistent, but you can be within range. And you know, what what I found with measuring guys like Darren Clark, Jake Knapp, any of the guys that are, you know, high level Michael Block, Michael Block, Blocky. So and and and his son, they're they're all very consistent. And then at some point maybe they're they get a little bit off track and you just just tweak them a little bit and they're like, ⁓ god, I'm making everything now. It's like, Well, you you were only that far away from making everything and you just moved that much and you made everything, right? So I think there's a lot of that that that you know, people need to consider, especially if they're trying to ⁓ advise somebody. speaker-0: Who's the who's the best putter? I mean, I'll still say Lessher, the best person I ever saw. That I'm sure I played a round or two with Greg. I gave him a bunch of lessons. He he was low amateur in the U.S. Open, I think, while I was teaching him. I'll take no credit for that. He was just a bulldog. If I would know what I know now about the swing and go back, of all the people that I taught, that I know I would teach better, and it would have helped. their career, he's the guy. Because he's the guy that I think there was, I don't know if it was a college tournament. I'm gonna butcher this story, but I'm not gonna butcher the the moral of the story. But he was someplace, I don't think it was like just the LSU team. So it might have been a college. And somebody's doing a talk and they said if you can have anybody in the world hit you a five iron on the last hole, six iron, to knock it on the green So that you know you could go up there and putt in and win the US Open or whatever, ride or cup or who would you pick? And everybody's raising a hand. Nicholas, Tiger, whatever. And he said, me. Greg Lesher right there. In a nutshell. So, okay, here's here's my little short list. I played a reasonable amount, which means 20 or 30 rounds, with Freddie Haas. So Freddie Haas, not only speaker-1: No, that's great. speaker-0: was the first golfer to play on the Walker Cup team and the Ryder Cup team. Hey, babes. And he played, I think, in the second masters and maybe about 15 masters and won five times on tour. His, I think, first win was the 12th tournament that Byron Nelson would have won if Freddie didn't win. When Byron Nelson won 11 in a row, Freddie won the 12th. So we're talking about, but the the interesting thing about Freddie, and I have to get this out there, even though this show is nothing like No More Lies, and I don't want it to be, he was a guy that the local pros would always tell me was not a nice guy. But he was exceptionally nice to me the entire time I knew him up until when he passed away. He was just the greatest guy. ⁓ Brian Wool. And and he designed putters. I don't know if you have a Freddie Haas putter with the little ball and the dot. There were there were mallets. ⁓ I'll get you one for your collection. speaker-1: Yeah, you you wanna hear Freddie Hurst's story? Well with a putter? Okay, okay. ⁓ speaker-0: But I right after I played with Freddie on you know, in in like they would pair us in section events together because they nobody liked me and nobody liked him. And they figured we wouldn't like each other, but we did we liked each other a lot. And I I should have never told anybody that I liked playing with ⁓ because then they never paired us again because they just wanted to penalize me as much as possible. But he was just and speaker-1: Probably the feather. speaker-0: Obviously was a good putter and had a great short game and there's a lot of and you're gonna you do have a Freddie High story, but this is the thing that I think folks, since we're talking about the stroke, this is the thing I want people to understand about the stroke and good putters. And I got I I got a couple more after your Freddie story. I never remembered watching Freddie putt and going, wow, I wish I could do that. I mean, when Stan Stopper hit a seven on, I would go, man, I'd like to be able to do that. Right. But when Freddie Haas hit a putt, first of all, he was one of probably the last like tour guys, I guess. I don't know. That purposely hit, especially short putts, all over the face on purpose to the right and to the left of center to keep the face open on a right to left putt, or keep the face from opening on a on a left to right putt. But it He he just he knew his stroke and he putted conventional the entire time I think that we played together and he was famous for being probably the first really good tour player that putted cross-handed and had a grip that he invented. He was an inventor. He did a lot of inventing. He had a grip be invented for cross-handed putting that that was readily available. Don't know if it's legal anymore. So I will I I will rest my case on the late, great Freddie Haas. Johnny, tell me your Freddie High story. speaker-1: Yeah, it's not about him particularly. It's about his putter. Yeah. So back in the day when I'd go out on the senior tour and you know, give away putters, Gabe Brewer just loved taking putters for free. So he he got one of our MO ones, it's like the the one that Trevino used. Plus he had like a long putter, the broom handle, numerous others. I can't remember ⁓ all. But he was telling me about the Freddie Hawes putter that he won the masters with. ⁓ about that? Yeah, yeah. It's like a potato masher little mallet thing. speaker-0: Massive head. speaker-1: The bigger putters back then are like they're just tiny like by now, right? If you compare them to like a a lab putter or a spider or anything like that, they're they were tiny. speaker-0: The the model that if you folks that listen or or watching this, go to eBay. There's a few of ⁓ and then then none of them are expensive. And and they're like a little bit of offset, like an eighty-eight ⁓ two has a little offset, right? And and it's a little mallet, not really that much different in size, maybe more hef, like more height than like an Odie Crispin or or any of those putters, or that or that TPA putter that that Faldo. speaker-1: T P eig eighteen? Yeah. speaker-0: You if you if you covered the top of it, right? So it wasn't that big and it wasn't that small, but they all had this is very, very interesting. I wouldn't have interrupted you, John. The he had a white ball, a round sticker, you know, on top of the putter. And I think it was maybe painted in and and they had like a a place for the paint to go. And the front of the circle, so imagine a black-headed putter with a circle, not a dot. Not not a dot, not a T P. Mills dot, not a Scottie Cameron special order dot. No, a it was like a price tag sticker size, right? One one dollar at the at the at the at the thrift store. And it had a pinhole, so like a little black dot on the front of that dot, which is very similar to that new ping putter, right? Don't You have one back there? It's got the line. And the dot. The line and the Freddy Haas. I don't care if they say they didn't take it from them. It just sometimes great minds think alike. Have the dot in front of the face. So Gabe Gabe Brewer, what do he what did he tell you about the putt, other than it was a Freddy? speaker-1: I am He said it was just the best putter he ever used. He was just like yeah, so he's like, ⁓ man, but he said, But you know what I did? Dumb me. He said I got angry one time and walking off a green, I slammed it on a curb on it like near a cart path and things crystallized. Just like speaker-0: Yeah, it was made out of something. Cause I remember at the at Protec Golf, the Stan Stopper store where I met well, didn't meet Freddie. He hit balls at the City Park driving range my whole life. But but and he said, Well, Brian, you'll never be any good unless you're playing practice every day. You know, he said, Not just play, not just practice, but both. But he would come in to work on clubs, offset woods he invented and all this kind of stuff when wood was still wood. And I remember we had an old one. And I tried to bend it and then it cracked. It was like it you know, it was like s you know, whatever that stuff is that the real cheap clubs were made of, but I I don't think it was cheap stuff. It just speaker-1: Yeah, might might have been in might have been zinc and aluminum. Yeah. Like like like what the s the slot lines used to be made out of. Remember the slot lines? Yeah, slot lines. Yeah. Yeah, you look at those things the wrong way, boop, break. speaker-0: So speaker-1: Anyhow, so so Gabe Brewer, he was a good guy, you know, had his phone number. I called him up and you know, he when he was the masters, I called and Hey, what's going on? You got a putter for me? So he's like, You got a putter for me? Like, no, I just want to see what's up, you know, just just just chat. But he he'd pick up my calls. It was pretty cool. But he like one of the things he told me one time, he goes, Every shaft has a hit. I'm like, What does that a hit? speaker-0: of what? Every shaft has I'm dying to hear this. speaker-1: Has a hit. Okay. So I had two broom handle putters, and somebody wanted one of them and I was reserving it for him. And he's hitting putts. He goes, I want this one. I said, ⁓ so and so already said he wants that. He goes, He won't know the difference. I do. I'm like, okay. He goes, Try these. Try try them side by side. And so I mean the shafts. The shafts. There were two long putters, right? Right. And so I hit one of them, the one that He didn't want, and then I hit the one that he wanted, and there was a huge difference between the two, and the one he wanted felt a lot better. So he he speaker-0: So you're talking about the broomstick shaft? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, the the the those ⁓ ski poles, right? The ski poles. Yeah, he said er he's just like like a billiard stick. They all have a hit. So I was like, Okay. So I don't know if you know, I I I haven't really paid attention to too much with ⁓ any of the putters that I have now, but but he said that every shaft has a just like H I T. H I T like you hit a ba hit a button. Yeah, but what did you think in build like it like a reverberation through the shaft that feels either better or worse. speaker-0: Bullchev, yes. What what did he make? That it had like Gotcha. speaker-1: Like it's just like you know, when you hug a woman if she smells good, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah. You remember that, right? When you used to hug a lot of different women. Now you just hug one and that's the she she smelled the best and felt the best to you. That's why she's yours, right? Mine too. Mine too, right? speaker-0: So so you may not remember this, but I thought at some point it would be a good idea 'cause lots of people were doing it, to learn to put, what do you call it? Broomstick or sweep? speaker-1: Yeah, long butter. Yeah. Yeah. Long butter. speaker-0: Top hand. So I got I was putting I was playing particularly well and I was putting particularly poorly. So it's a good time to try something. And Mike Sport, who was sort of my main member at at at English Turner, did a lot for me, found me, Mr. Nolan to loan me the money for this house that the studio this guy's in. And and and we all became friends and went on some golf trips together. He says, Bro, I can't. Can't stand your watch and shoot 73, you should have shot 66. So here's a bunch of putters. He gave me like eight putters. Eight. One was a Kirk Curry long putter, right in the back of this wall right here. Still got him. But one of them was a two-ball long putter. And I thought, this is the one I'm going to putt So I got a new grip put on it and I went to the city park, current city park putting green. This wasn't that many years ago. And went I went over there and I I told myself, okay, and I just put around the clock, right? So I put around the clock, okay, for not ever having done it before, nobody showed me what to do. And then I said, I gotta try it on a golf course. And I went out, I did all right. I yipped it less, I made a couple, but I was horrific long lag putter. I was thinking about using two putters because I'm a good lag putter, no matter what. So I went, nah, practice. So I would go every day to go take the trackman combine. This was like my routine at the time before the studio. I would go to City Park, buy a bucket of balls, or they would give them to me. It was 50-50. I would take the trackman combine, put up the score, made me practice hard. I would go to the practice putting green and I'd drop a few balls down and putt like 60-70 footers with this Mike Sport two-ball putter. I'd say five or six times. I am. Not getting better. And I'm not any good. Now I don't give a damn what it is. Skiing, I've never been on a snow ski or water ski. You let me practice something that at least I could watch somebody do. And I could not lag putt this thing at all. So I called the best putting expert I know, Johnny Ortega. And I said, Hey Johnny. He says, Does it have a ski pole shaft in? You mean like an actual shaft like you would ski with? No, no, no, no. It's a shaft that True Temper makes, I guess, right? True Temper? Yeah. That that's just so damn stiff, they call it the ski pole. And I went, would it like come stock with a ski pole? ⁓ no, probably not. I went, Well, this is stock is all get out. And he says, Okay, well, you know, I don't know. Did you send me a ski pole? Or I I ordered one. I think I ordered. speaker-1: Yeah, it's I think you got it from Callaway. Yeah, I called Odyssey. speaker-0: Called them today, I called them and this is when I was on the staff and had some ability to get something done for me and I said, Listen, I'll pay whatever. I want this putter and I want a ski pole chef. And I remember somebody who I don't know who I talked to, but it was like speaker-1: How about Nick Arthur? speaker-0: No, no, Nick Nick yeah, I I I love Nick Arthur. He got me my Callaway deal and he's still we're still good friends. He's a great guy. But but no, no, no. I don't think Nick, I don't think I called Nick, but it might have. I don't want to take that away from Nick. But whoever it was, let's say it was Nick. There was like one or two left in the whole Callaway factory. Right? Because now what are they doing? They're putting those, you know, $500 graphite shafts and all those things, right? The tour players. I guess. So they He sent this thing out. It was so much better. It was embarrassing. I went from not being able to lag. Well, what I would do is I'd take like five balls or six balls and putt like an 80-footer and I'd try to two putt them all. And I mean, I would never do it. And I was okay at making 10 footers with this stupid thing. The ski pole was the huge upgrade. The only problem with that, you know, I I should have probably had you look at me do it. I could never aim. Two ball with a line. I couldn't aim it. And I had a round playing with Jacobs where we played National Golf Link, Shinnok, Bald Detroll, and Pond Valley in four days. ⁓ That's showing off right there. And I hit it good at Bald Detroll. I should have shot two or three over max. And I think I shot eight. I think I shot 80 or 79. I know I missed an eagle in the last hole from about three feet. And I hit, I hit a Two hybrid from two yards in front of the famous Jack Nicholas one iron as a plaque three or four feet from the hole and didn't hit the hole. And the caddies were arguing with each other. And I never f found out during the round what they were arguing about. But when I was on around I I you know paid ⁓ good and tipped ⁓ And I said, What were y'all arguing about back then? I said, You said I could tell you were aiming to put it to the right and you were missing everything you looked at and then the other guy's saying, No, no, whatever you do, don't tell You should have told me. I don't know when I'm ever gonna be back again, you know, but I couldn't aim the sucker. So do you think now that we're on that subject, what what is your feeling on on an and this is kind of off the particular, but you think there's a whole lot of difference in the shafts? We're gonna talk about that in putting. I hit that my you know, my Paretti putter that that's my gamer. They they they when they fit me for that, they let me putt with A similar paretti with one of those five hundred dollar shafts in it and I hated the way it speaker-1: The job lot shafts they call ⁓ They're like the cheaper ones. They have a little bit of give in ⁓ And as long as they're, you know, thick enough, I think they're great. They're fine. And you can get like a KBS, you know, fancy shaft. Tyler, Tyler Smith, the guy you came out and work with. Yep. He he has like a fifty dollar shaft. It's I don't know, thirty-five dollars more than a job lot cheap shaft and feels a little bit heavier, feels a little bit more rigid. And if you're into that thing, cool. But you know, when we putt, I usually I usually beat him, you know? Yeah. So I'm twenty I'm $20 up on him. Last time we played, I call it one, two, two, four, and three, six. And I I ⁓ my God. So I I beat him for 20 bucks. We said 20 bucks, we're gonna call it because you can go for on forever. So we we have that running tab. But I can tell you, can I tell you a quick story about a couple of the girls that I coached? This is just ⁓ these are the cutest girls. They're little Vietnamese girls. One of them's named Lam. How how old are they? Lamb is 14. Gotcha. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Or 15, 14, or 15, and twin, it's not spelled like twin, but that's she goes, she just simplifies it so people can pronounce it. Twin, she's probably 12 years old. So they come for an hour and a half and we chip for, you know, 45 minutes and we go putt. Well, two times ago, we get on the putting green and I Hey, you want to putt for some money? And twin says, Nah, you know, I've watched movies where the grandpa gets into gambling and he it's it's becomes a problem, and then he's a burden to the family. And I don't want to put, I want to get into that habit. I'm like, all right, fine. How about if we play for pretend money? She goes, okay. And so she just starts Yeah, so she just starts like hooping them, right? And so she's eight dollars up. I said, okay, twin, you ready to turn that money into real money? Yeah. So we start putting for real money. And so she beats me for, I don't know, five dollars and her sister for 10. And her sister said, You told me if we ever gambled, you'd you'd back me. I'm like, okay, guess. So I ended up giving her fifteen dollars, right? This was like three weeks ago. Well, a week ago, she they show up and we do our chipping and then we go over to the butt to start putting and she's like, So what were we putting for? speaker-0: Ready to go to edit. You've turned her into because everybody who gambles and wins is is now a gambler. speaker-1: Yeah. So so we start putting and and unfortunately. I usually I usually when I what's my s we alternate. So when it's my turn, I usually hit somewhere between a six and an eight footer. The ones that kind of matter, right? ⁓ you know, three footer is just too easy for them. You know, everybody's gonna miss the three footer. That's why I say respect the three footer. But I I'd be the first one to putt, and I'm hitting lips and lipping out. And they have the line, right? And so now they just start hooping them. And they are just laughing their butts off. They're like, ⁓ my God, this is so much fun. And at the end, Twin beats me for twenty-two dollars and Lamb beats me for eighteen. So I I have to fork out forty dollars. And I just told them, I go, girls, bring your money next time. We're gonna play for real money and I'm gonna I'm gonna give it to you. speaker-0: So to tie th to tie this into and and tie the ⁓ episode up, what kind of putting strokes do they have? What what what is it what do they their their strokes look like? speaker-1: Well, twins is a little bit shorter. Excuse me. Lamb's is a little bit shorter to longer, but not like super, you know, dissimilar lengths. And twin stops at the ball. She's just like stop. Yeah. Yeah. And she she makes everything. She's so good. And so I just told I told her, I go, you know, before we putt, I'm not going to give you any tips. We we just got to go straight up. I don't want to I don't want to tune you up because you're you're a little too dangerous for my liking. speaker-0: And well, we're gonna have a lot of fun. There's a lot this was a lot of fun. We're gonna have a lot of fun on the next episode when we talk about putt urge. Boy, let me tell you we got the guy for that. speaker-1: And this this is the end ⁓ end the story. She looks at me, she goes, This is so much fun. So much fun. And that's that's what I when I when I the kids come to see me, I just want them to like know that they're gonna have fun. And they do. We make it fun. Be straight shooting like this. speaker-0: Funneled off, let me tell you. We got two podcasts right now working on three. We have that speaker-1: Bring out just gotta roll and puts will surely be fair. But but speaker-0: Thank you folks for listening. Thank you, Johnny, as always. speaker-1: Okay, ha you have a good day. I'm gonna have one for sure. I'm gonna go putt. I'm gonna go putt. I'm just spitting facts, putting it in the s speaker-0: Fun.