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Redemptive Birth and Restorative Reproductive Medicine · Mom Wars

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: From the front lines of the mom Wars. Here's Bethany
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Mandel and Kara Kennedy.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Hi, and welcome to an episode of the mom mos podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I'm car Kennedy, contributing writer at The Free Press, and
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: I'm joined by my co host.
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: Bethany Mandel, homeschooling mom of six, and I write things
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: for various places like The Washington Examiner and the New
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: York Post and whoever will have me Fox News Sometimes
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: I don't know I get around.
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: Are We are joined by Madeline Freischultz. I'm a contributors
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: editor at the Washington Examiner. I've had both of you
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: ladies write for me. And a good friend of the podcast.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and a new mom yes times, Well, I guess
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: I was at times.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: The second time mom, Yeah, I guess so yeah, new
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: mom of two.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: How does it feel the second time around?
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: It's great. I don't know, it's weird. It's two times
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: the work. It's a lot more work, and it's it's
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: very cute to see the way they interact. So my
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: older one is three and a half and then the
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: younger ones now three months. They're so cute together. But
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: it's just like it's just nonstopp there's always one kid
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: needs you, which I'm sure Bethany you understand because you
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: have many kids needing you.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Yes, my best advice on that is to help the
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: older kid first, because that child will hold a grudge
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: and the baby will not hold a grudge.
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: That is very good advice.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Bethany, have you seen Maddie's baby yet?
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: No? I mean I've seen pictures, but I haven't.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: Like.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Fine, Mattie's second baby looks nothing like her first, to
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: the point where like you wouldn't even put them in
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: a lineup together.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: Really, yeah, and you hardly ever see that.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: So but both so cute. It's very cute.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I have one child like that. I have like
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: five kids who all look alike and then one kid
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: And if he wasn't born on the side of the road,
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: we would like not really And I'm and he looks
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: just like Seth, so we obviously know he belongs Seth.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: But genetics are funny.
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: We joked that he was switched to the hospital like somehow.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: We just they were like, all right, this is your
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: baby because he's pale blonde. All of us are kind
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: of olive skin, dark hair, really beautiful blue eyes. Very cute,
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: but yeah, very very random. I don't know how we
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: got him. I think he's got a little bit of
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: redheadness to him.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Too interesting.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe he'll grow into his capit. You see that with
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: they've borne like really pale, and then around like two
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: years old they dark in.
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, amazing.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: So how did the birth go? And tell me about
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: your first birth, and then tell me how is your
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: second birth?
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: So my second birth was incredible. I remember when Kara
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: gave birth when and she was like, it was it
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: went really well, Like I feel like I could just
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: do it again. And I was like, that's so insane.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: You have to be lying, like this is not a
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: real thing.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: It was annoying.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: I love when people. I love when women say this
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: because there's so much fearmongering out there, and I love
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: when people are like, yeah, it was great, all.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: Right, Like birth can be really great. So I didn't know.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't have a horrible experience with my
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: first but when THEO, my three year old, was born,
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: it was twenty twenty two. They were still doing COVID
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: regulations and there had been this sort of miscommunication with
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: my obgyn where they were like, you can have a
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: quote unquote midwife with you in addition to your support person,
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: so basically you can have your husband and your mom.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: So my mom had been able to fly up from
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: Georgia in time to be there. We all got to
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: the hospital and then the intake nurse was like, you can't.
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: You can only have one person where you're trying to
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: sneak your mom in here. She was being very aggressive,
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: very mean. We were trying to look up the website's
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: rules and say like, Noah, you can have another person.
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: She goes, no, that's only if the baby dies. Like
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: she is just being so horrible and I'm like crying
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: through contractions, and then they wouldn't admit me at first
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: because I wasn't dilated enough, even though I knew I
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: was going to give birth. By the time I was admitted,
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: I gave birth in like four hours, so I was like,
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: oh my god, I'm not just a first time mom
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: who doesn't know what's going on. And then I got
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: the epidural, but it sort of wore off and I
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: ended up having second degree tearing, and it was just
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: a lot, It was a whole you know, it just
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: recovery felt difficult. It just very much weight to have
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: only on me, I think emotionally and physically, and you know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: it could have been worse, but it could have been better,
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: which I realized when I gave birth to Quincy, our
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: second a few months ago, was in July, which actually,
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: if anyone listened to the previous podcast about my three
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: miscarriages I had between the two boys, Quincy was actually
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: born on July fourth, which was the date of my
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: first miscarriage. So just very incredible and redemptive. And then
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: the birth itself was so nice, like my mom and
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: my husband were both there. I got the epidural, I
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: got so much epiderl. I was just chilling the whole time.
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: I am so pro drug. I understand why people don't
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: do it, but for me, it's been great. I love it.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: I was in so much pain when I got to
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: the hospital. I got the epidural, and then we were
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: just chatting in the delivery room. I was listening to
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: peaceful music. I'd picked out a playlist and we were
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: just hanging out. And then by the time it came
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: to push, I was just like, okay, sure, and then I,
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: you know, pushed him out, and I think it was
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: in three contractions and he came out super easily. I
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: didn't tear, which was huge. I was like, this is
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: an absolute game changer. Now I'm like always talking to
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: new moms like, Okay, this is what you can do
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: to not tear. I know it's not totally in your control.
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: Maybe it's because I tore the first time, and you know, things.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: Were I.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: So I did This is a little little uh tmi
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: for anyone, but I did peraneal massages beforehand, so you
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: just kind of like massage the area and make sure
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: that it's stretchy to give birth. Yeah, and then had
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: dates beforehand that actually really does help, and then kind
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: of do a warm compress during labor to kind of
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: just keep everything, you know, just you know next Yeah.
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so those are all the things that I'm
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: not I don't know if it worked that's why.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: But like I had the fourth dates that I remember
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: fourth in dates that I've never heard of. This, well,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: you've never had date dates.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: I never even heard of thing.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: You're supposed to have six dates a day starting at
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: like thirty eight weeks or something. I was so sick
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: of dates, especially with me. I was like, I'm never
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: going to touch a date for the rest of my life.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: I'm done.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: I've never heard of this in my life.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: That's insane.
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: I'm shocked.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: No, I never tore.
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: Wow, that's also amazing.
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: Good for you. I mean, I had giant babies too,
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: But I have very stretchy skin, as evidenced by my stomach.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: It's not a great scene. It doesn't look great.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: Not tearing, though, that's incredible.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: But I didn't tear. I had a ninety ninth percentile
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: head and a ten end to ten pound baby.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: No, that's terrifying.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but my stomach looks like it will never be
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: the same. That's fine.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: You can have postpoted disco hold.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: I feel about at the girls like I feel about coffee.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: I've never drank coffee, and I feel like, at this point,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: after six children, if I had coffee and I loved it, it
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: made me like really functional, I would just regret so
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: much my life choices of not having them through six children,
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: like not having coffee. But I feel that way about
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: an epidural too, like what if, Yeah, what if it
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: was amazing? And then I'm like, oh, I could have
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: had that the whole time instead of you know, saying
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: good bye to my husband, thinking I was about to die.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: I don't want to know.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: I remember after I gave birth and I was kind
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Maddy about how much I loved it. She was like, oh,
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I had an apple jirrol too, but like you don't.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Didn't you feel so much pain towards the end. And
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I was like no, I just kept pressing the button
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: to give me more drugs and she was like, oh,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't know about that.
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: They didn't tell me there was a button.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: I didn't know.
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: It was just like you get the epidural and that's
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: like there's a sad amount of drugs that they're like,
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: this is all you can take. I had no idea
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: you can get.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I'd pushing it so much that my nurse was slick
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: screaming at me. She was like, you have to stop.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: Well, it doesn't it doesn't work after a certain you know,
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: you can push the button so many times but no,
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: but did.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: They like you to have like an also gap before
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: you start pushing? And she told me that I was
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: gonna stop pushing in like twenty minutes. I was like
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: ding ding and she was like no, no, I need
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: you to feel the contractions.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Okay, I follow women. Her Her name is Horton Lane
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: on Instagram. Do you guys follow her?
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: I love her. She's I do too. I do too.
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: You should get her on the podcast.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: That would be fun. Actually I've messaged with her a
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: few times. That'd be good promo too. Nice nice job.
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: She posted like a video of her like birth story
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: or whatever, and she had n epidurla also, and I
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: watched it and I was like, what is this? What
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: is going on here? You just like you're talking.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: And had your nap. I had like five minute nap baby, right?
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: What is that life? And I had to stop watching
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: it because I was like, oh, this is because I
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: was already done having babies. I was like, I can't
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: introduce this thought process into my head. But it's it's fine. Okay.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: So now this is me bargaining with myself. It's fine
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: because I have babies so fast I couldn't even have
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: it an upper dooorly anyway.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: This is knocking myself down from it.
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: That is true. I don't think my mom for her
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: first two including me, couldn't get that girl because the
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: babies came out too quickly.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: So what was it like having your mom there?
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: It was nice.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: It was kind of weird. I don't know, like it
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: felt so cool though, that she got to have that
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: experience of like seeing a baby come into the world.
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: Because I'm the first one to have kids of my
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: siblings and then she didn't get to be there for theos.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: This was like kind of the first chance that she
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: had and the only girl. And I'm the only girl. Yeah,
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: so probably she's not going to be in any other
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: deliver room, so I'm only I'm the only chance she gets.
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: But yeah, and I hadn't really thought about that before.
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: I mean, I've never watched someone give birth and I
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: don't know if I will until if I have a daughter,
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: if she ever does. So it was cool, it was nice.
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like it depends on your mom's personality.
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: My mom is being really great. She wasn't being too
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: fussy or anything and was being very supportive.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: My mom would have passed out, she would have just
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: slid down the wall and been unconscious. I would never
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: have never would have happened. Car, What about you, Are
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: you planning on having your mom come for.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: The first one and then the baby came a week earlier,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and obviously you have like a seven hour transatlantic flight
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: to add in. So she was not at the first one.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: I'm hoping she's at the second one. But I also
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: might need her for babysitting.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Right, Oh that's true.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because what do you do?
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, I had home births, but you like, we
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: when we lived in Washington Heights and we had friends
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: who didn't have family around, we like got to play
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: parent for a day with their older kid. You should
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: just identify like a young single friend who will just
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: come and play mom for the day. Yeah.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's fine if it's like daytime. But I
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: wouldn't want to call anybody.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: No, it's so fun to get there. I'm on my
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: way and it's three am. I think it would be fun.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I'm the type of person that I'm like asking too
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: much of people.
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: I'm the same way. I did that with my midwife.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: I called my midwife when I was in labor at
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: like five am, and I was like, Hi, is sorry
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: interrupt I'm so sorry.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: I did this too, literally my job. I did this
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: with my Duela, and she was kind of annoyed with
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: me because she was like because my baby was what's
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: it called, like the wrong breach, not breach but transverse, okay,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: like sideways, and I ended up giving birth like that
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: and it was it made it super long and painful.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: And she was like, oh, if you would have called
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: me in like the very very early stages of labor,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: I think I could have flipped the baby. And I
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: think she could have because as soon as she come
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: when I called her, I was like three or four
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: centime to dilate it already, and she like flipped me
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: over and started doing these tricks on me and like
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: pressing soon and as soon as she came, like the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: pain stopped. Before that, it was it was so horrendous.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I well, I was just having an appadural as she
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: came in. So but but yeah, I think she probably
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: could have moved the baby.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: You know, do this can like do all their magicians.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: So I want to take a quick break and then
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: I want to jump into a piece that Madeline just
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: wrote because I want to hear all about it because
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: it's very controversial and I think that's how you get
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: clicks in the podcast world or not.
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: I don't know. Hi, this is a young culter welcome
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: to my Ricochet podcast.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: And Coulter every week on Ricochet, You're home to Center
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Right Conversation.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: Hey, that was pretty good. Okay, So tell us about
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: this piece that you wrote, because this was actually like
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: the premise theoretically of why we invited you on, but
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: we just wanted to have you on. Yeah.
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: So there's this debate that's kind of going on in
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: Capitol Hill and also more broadly, I think any woman
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: who's had any sort of fertility struggles is vaguely aware
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: of some of the options, but not everything. So last
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: month there were these dueling briefings in Washington, and one
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: was on IVF, which I think most people are aware of.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: In vitro fertilization, you have the woman give an egg,
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: the man give a sperm, They create an embryo, and
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: then they implant that embryo back into the woman. And
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: this is usually done when a woman is having trouble having,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: you know, getting pregnant or staying pregnant otherwise. And then
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: the other briefing was on this thing called restorative reproductive
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: medicine I'm trying to get the term right RRM, and
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: this is sort of an IVF alternative for people who
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: don't want to do IVY for whatever reason, if it's
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: a religious reason or it just hasn't really worked for them.
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: And our ARM is kind of it's very expansive. There
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: are a lot of different ways that it can look
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: and things that it can do. So it could be
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: screening for underlying conditions like endometriosis or pcos. They look
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: at the male partner's health, so this is kind of interesting.
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: Apparently one third of infertility cases are from the man,
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: one third or from the woman, and then one third
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: are both or unknown, so you can't rule out looking
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: at the you know, the man side of the reproductive issue,
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: and then they will create a treatment plan and that
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: could be hormone therapy or luteal phase normalization, so kind
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: of we're looking at your cycle. So it's just this
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: very involved process of kind of figuring out what's going
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: on with the woman's reproduction, is there anything going wrong,
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: how can we fix it? Do we do surgery, medication, whatever,
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: also looking at the man. So theoretically, if you are
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: going to do IVF, they will look at these things
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: before Theoretically, I think this is the thing that a
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: lot of IBF, a lot of IVF proponents are not
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: very into RM, and I think that they are afraid
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: that it will it's trying to kind of overtake IVF.
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: That like, if RM becomes more popular, no one's gonna
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: want to do IVF, or it's going to get more
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: criticism or whatever. But I think IVF is definitely here
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: to stay. But there are a lot of people who
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: have religious objections to it, I know Catholics. For them,
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: IVF is completely off the table. I'm awaken. So so
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: it's you have the creation of embryos, and often they
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: do not they're not used. So what happens is you
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: create all these embryos, a lot of them are not
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: going to be viable, and then you put them in
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: the woman's womb, and you probably are going to do
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: several because a lot of them are not going to
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: stick or are not going to implant in the uterus.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: And then even if they do, if you have several,
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: maybe you did three embryos in case you know, something
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: didn't work, and then they all work, you're probably going
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: to abort one or two of them so that you
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: don't end up with like a triplet pregnancy. There are
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: a million embryos right now on ice in the US.
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: This is just the IVF results in this massive creation
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: of embryos. So the Catholic Church is completely off the table,
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: like because of the discard, you know, people discarding embryos.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: I think it also has to do with this idea
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: of IVF being kind of utilitarian or treating people as commodities.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: My church. I go to an Anglican church where I'm Protestant,
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: and I think that their perspective is a little bit more.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: You can do IVF ethically. You would just have to
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: do it in a way where you were not creating
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: embryos that would be discarded. But that's pretty hard if
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: you want to do I was going to say it,
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: a lot of people are not going to want to
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: work with you because it's very expensive. Each round of
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: IVF can be like twelve to fifteen grand and if
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: you're going to go through all of that with maybe
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: just one or two embryos, it may not be worth it.
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: So not everyone's gonna understand that. I respect to that definite.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: What is the Jewish Yeah, I was going to ask, Yeah.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: So it's funny, is this so this is kind of
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: where I step off the pro life train a little bit,
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: because the pro life train is like very very Catholic
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: and they view life beginning at conception. That's not the
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Jewish view at all, so much so that there are
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Jewish charities that like will pay for people to have IVF.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: It's so so so encouraged. But I find it interesting this,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: like I feel like IVF in my observations of friends,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: you're just trying to bludge in your body into submission
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: into doing what you want it to do, versus looking
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: holistically at like what's what's going on here? Because a
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: lot of my friends who have had infertility issues had
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: PTOs and that was that was the problem, and the
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: solution wasn't IVF, and that was just the default, like, well,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: you're happy problems have, I go for IVF and it wasn't.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: There wasn't any investigative This.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Is my stacond question because I was trying to explain
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: it to my husband and I was like in my head,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, isn't it so obvious that yeah,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: RRM should be the the standard. Yes, And then you
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: go to IVF.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: It's so much less invasive, it's so much less expensive,
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: and you're not.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Like regardless of whether you end up with babies or not.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Surely you want to know what's up, you know, if
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: you've had multiple miscarriages.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and also not spend all of that money and
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: pomp yourself with hormones.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: I think it's a it's a financial thing. I mean,
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: IVF is a huge industry and people make a lot
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: of money from it, and so it's easy to just say, oh, yeah,
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: well we'll just why don't you just do IVF. When
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: I changed, I swisch it'll be g I n's after
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: my third miscarriage, right before actually when I got pregnant
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: with Quincy, and so when I went there, I already
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: had a healthy pregnancy. But I was kind of talking
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: to them about, like, you know, if this goes wrong,
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: what are my other options? What am I gonna do?
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: And my doctor mentioned IVF and it was the first
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: time it had been mentioned to me, and I was
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: kind of shocked because I'm in my late twenties. I'm
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: not that old. And she didn't say anything about tests,
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: which I had already done, but I thought, you know,
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: maybe they can recommend other things that I could look into,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: and she just said, oh, well, have you thought about IVF?
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: And I was like, not really, that feels so that
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: feels like going from zero to one hundred. That feels
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: so drastic to have this conversation when I'm not even
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: sure we have looked into everything to be looked into, Like,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know what else there is, and that's kind
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: of I feel like that should be your job to
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: be telling me, Okay, well if you tested X, Y,
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: and Z, maybe you could test this other thing. But
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: IVF is a twenty five billion dollar global industry. It's
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: very very lucratic.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Can I can I sound a little true? Three for
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: a moment? I wonder if there's a referral bonus, Like
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: when I post an Amazon link and I get, you know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: three percent cut back. I wonder if doctors get a
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: referral bonus. Feel it's totally possible, pretty simple.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Right, Matthie. When you had your third miscarriage, do you
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: feel like you were given the support and kind of
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: do you feel like your doctors took you seriously enough
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: and like tried to find the root cause or was
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: it just like, oh, this is just random and it
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: just happened to you three times, Because three times feels
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: like a lot.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: And this is the interesting thing in current practice. I
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: believe that it is two miscarriages that they will treat
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: as a pattern, but it used to be three. But
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: people don't super take you seriously as a as someone
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: who experiences recurrent miscarriage. If it's two three, they definitely do.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: But it is kind of terrible that you have to
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: like keep going through that experience before people are like, oh, okay,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: well we should look into that. Because I actually had
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: that happen at one point. It must have been after
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: my second miscarriage. I was referred to a specialist and
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: I basically just went in a room and had a
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: conversation with this guy, and I was hoping he would
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: give me more ideas, like Okay, what other kind of
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: things could I test? And he basically just told me, well,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: it's just too it's not that many and my wife
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: had miscarriages and then we have three kids and it's
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: just one of those things. And I was like, that's
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: not a medical perspective, Like.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: I get that, you know, it's not an ethical or
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: moral perspective. That's a really callous.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was horrible to be told that. I mean,
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: I feel like every step of the way. I had
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: some people, but no one who was really like, all right,
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: let's invest what are we gonna really look into? So
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: it's it's very hard. This is like it's hard to
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: get people to take you seriously, I think as a woman,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: and especially when it comes to reproductive health.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you really have to advocate for yourself.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: You have a find like a closive such.
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: No, they never really did. I mean the one thing
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: that I finally was tested for or was my baseline
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: progesterone levels, and they were a little bit low. And
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: I was on progesterone for my previous pregnancies, but I
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: like really beefed up my dosage for my pregnancy with Quincy,
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: So I think that could have been the defining factor.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: I don't know, but low progesterone can also come from
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: other things. So I don't know why I have low progesterone,
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: and that would be something to look into to find out. Okay, well,
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: how do I besides just supplementing, Like is there a
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: reason that those levels are low?
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: That is I think one of the hardest things about
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: the medical war, and I find that also being a
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: parent as well, like finding a medical professional who just
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: believes you is really hard to find, and it's very
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: frustrating even with like a pediatrician or something. I have
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: six children and walking in we have like one pediatrician
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: in the practice who's like super super young and not
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: very experienced. And I walked in and I was like,
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: this child has strap get antibiotics. And he's like whoa,
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: And he goes through this whole thing, and I was like,
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: can you just swab and then go and then come
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: back and if I'm wrong, then we can go through
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: this whole thing. And he didn't. And then finally I
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: was like, now this is the time you swap. This
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: is right now, that's the time that you swab. I
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: don't know. And I had to force him and then
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: he went and he came back and he's like yeah
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: she was. I'm like, yeah she does. Thanks.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: We could basically feel like a crazy person that you
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: have to keep advocating for yourself.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Yeap. That's I think one of the biggest lessons of
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: pregnancy that you carry on through parenting is you have
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: to advocate and be annoying.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: M H.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, do you feel like now if
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: you like have more pregnancies, you have a team that
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: you trust to actually listen to you and you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: treat you holistically.
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: I did really like my new doctors. I think the
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: prout this was really nice and very helpful, and I
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: got to have ultrasounds every week. But I don't know,
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: I'm kind of worried about getting pregnant again if I
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: just kind of trust that the progesterone supplement is the
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: thing that I need, or if I can go in
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: and look, and I don't know what else they would recommend.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: For me, because they didn't do any So. The interesting
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: thing about her suggestion to do IVF. I have a
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: friend who she had recurrent miscarriages also, and she ended
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: up doing IVF because she found out that her and
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: her husband they like I think chromozoon, really didn't match perfectly.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: There was like there was some sort of disconnect with
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: them genetically that they had to do IVF in order
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: to get and like they would test the sperm, they
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: would test the egg and then make sure that they
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: had like a match before they put them together. And
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: they were Jewish, and it was really interesting because they
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: got I don't know, I'm spitballing, like five embryos or something.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: And she had to decide what to implant, a boy
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: or a girl, and that was like, I feel like
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: that's hard and weird to just roll the dice. But
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: I also I did the Shettles method. Do you guys, are
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: you familiar with this? I did this and it didn't work,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: so I did it and it worked six times.
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: Oh this is to pick the gender.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: M hmm, what did I do wrong?
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know. But so you basically you time you
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: time intercourse based on ovulation, and so the closer to
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: ovulation is when you have boys, and the farther out
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: is when you have girls. And I only actually tried
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: to have my daughters my sons. I didn't We had
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: like specific names, girl names that we wanted to use,
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: and so we specifically like try to get pregnant with
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: girls for those girls. But I know when I got
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: pregnant every single time, and it fits every single time,
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and I played god and I'm not really sorry about it,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: but like it feels different, like rolling the dice with
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: that versus like affirmatively picking an embryo. That's like, now
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: we will have a daughter.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think if you don't know, like you know,
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: with car, like you tried and it didn't work. I know,
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: if I should try to have a girl, because now
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: we have two boys.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: But I said, if I have not, if I have
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: a third girl and Maney has a third boy, we're
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: gonna switch.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: We'll just swap. Yeah, but with IV if it's not
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: just like picking the gender. It is so crazy what
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: you can do. Now. There are these companies Nucleus Genomics
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: and Orchid and they advertise, uh, if you you know,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: you have these genetics that we pick, it more likely
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: that you would have cancer or whatever. Pick this, you know, pick,
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: have all these embryos, get them all tested, and then
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: pick the ones that are gonna be healthy. And it's
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: so creepy. Some of them will even just have this
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: like panel where you can look at and it's like
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: this embryo has this eye collar and this preposition, this predisposition,
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: and you can just pick your designer baby.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: What you one thing? It's fine. I kind of think
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: it's fine.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Can I say something that might get me canceled? No,
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: it's not fine.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: It's just it's dystopian.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: It's really dystopian. I'm going to say something that's going
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: to get me canceled. I saw an ad for one
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: of these companies, and the woman who was like the
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: CEO or something I don't know, was absolutely autistic, one
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: hundred percent. I would bet my life on her being autistic.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: She's like, why wouldn't you do this? I'm like, girl,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: because you wouldn't exist because you are really autistic. And that,
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: by the way, is why you're so successful at your job,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: because you're autistic. And this is one of the things
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: that I don't like about, like all the autism research,
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: because they want to find a genetic cause. And I'm like, hmm,
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not in favor of eliminating all neurodiversity from our
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: gene pool. I think that's a mistake.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm, yeah, well it would be disturbing if people,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: I mean people are already doing this. If you can
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: get then you say, well, I don't like that trade.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna, you know, trash these and then we're just going.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: To go with these other I think I think I've
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: been conditioned because Nick, if given the choice, would do
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: it all. He would like he would choose the ship. However,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: all he really wanted to do when I got pregnant,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: he really wanted to Apparently this it's like saying in
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Columbia that you can have an injection and your baby
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: will never get cavities.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: I was like, no, I don't trust injections in Columbia.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: I'm just I'm just gonna say it.
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Hey, I hate to interrupt you for a second,
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: but I have to James Lllex reminding you that it
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: is October.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: But of course you knew that. You look out the window,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: everything's brown. You walk around the neighborhood, you got the
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: spooky decorations and the rest well, you know, it's really spooky.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: As they say in the bad cliche ads, that's right.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Facing this month without Ricochet, it's the place where you're
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: going to find the same civil center, write conversation you've
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: been looking for all your days on the internet. The
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: member feed is where it all happens, meet new friends,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: discuss absolutely everything.
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: We'll be waiting for you at ricochet dot com.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Hang on. So back to URM so our restore What
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: is it again?
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: Restore rest sort of reproductive medicine.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, And basically what they do is they track periods,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: track copulation, do blood work and just try and find
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: any anormally or any.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Issues and also who is doing this? So this is
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: my next This is a follow up question also, like
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: why isn't your ob doing this? Like is there a
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: special RM doctor that you have to pursue for Like
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: I feel like really basic normal preventative not preventative care,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: but like first line care.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: I think there are certain clinics in certain doctors, especially
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: with the surgeries for things like endometriosis, they that are like,
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: you know, we're an RRM clinic. I don't know. It's
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: also it like, yeah, I don't think that a lot
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: of if you go to your obg I on you're like,
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: can I do r M? I don't think that's it's
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: also just sort of a treatment plan. It's not really
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: like as it's so hard to describe, and I actually
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: I need to do a lot more research on this.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: This was the first time I had heard about This
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: was just in the past few months kind of stuff
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: started coming out about it. But I was so surprised
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: because I was like, I, over the past few years
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: would have been a prime candidate for looking into this
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: and this could have really helped me. And I just
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: had no idea. I'd never heard of it. And that's
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: the crazy thing, Like I don't you know, I don't
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: think that IVF should be illegal or that it shouldn't
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: people shouldn't have access to it. I think that it
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: should have a lot more guardrails, but I definitely shouldn't
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: just be the first thing that people push on you.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: They should be talking.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Weird about RRI me that when we all hear it,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: we're like, oh, this is kind of hard to describe,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: and this is like a weird concept because I guess
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: we all thought that it was just already happening, you know,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: like it feels like the most basic level of like
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: k and inquisitiveness, and.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: That is a good point. That should just be an
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: appointment with your obig.
• 31:22
  Speaker 6: I M.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is that. I was trying to describe it
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: to Nick and he was just like, I was.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah, it's not rocket science here.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So it can be as low level as like
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: taking a temperature or doing blood work or whatever, and
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: then it can be as high level as like an operation.
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: Mm hmm.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: Probably the more invasive end of the spectrum would be
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: to have surgery for something like an ametriosis, and the
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: less invasive would be probably something like putting someone on progesterone,
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: you know, kind of a whole romone therapy, medications and
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: supplements that kind of thing, or lifestyle adjustments, and it's
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: not like, you know of sure thing. It's not like
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: this is the solution. They're definitely going to find something,
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: but it's just I think a lot of women going
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: through this process is able to help them and content
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: potentially be so much less invasive and painful and expensive
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: than IVF.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: I think that pumping yourself with hormones is bad for
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: your body, probably bad. Probably there's unintended consequences down the line.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: I feel like RRM is kind of Maya Maha coded.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: That's part of the problem. That's why it's kind of
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: seen skeptically in the medical field. I think because people
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: associate it with like religious zelots or Trump people or
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Maha anti vaxxers, like there are all these associations with
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: it that make people think, oh, well, that's it's just
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: like junk science. It's fake, and that's not true. It's
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: just looking into your reproduction. But it has become it
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: has kind of got this certain connotation with it.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: I think, right now, why do you think it has
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: been dragged into like a cultural fight?
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: I think everything gets dragged into a culture war fight,
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: and I think it's easy to kind of I don't know,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: I don't know. This is maybe a little conspiratorial. It's
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: like it's easy to kind of dismiss it if you
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: can frame it as well, that's just like a right
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: wing nutty thing that people do. Yeah. But I also think, like,
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: and this was a big part of my piece, is
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: like I think people are minimizing the concerns of religious women,
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: Like there are tons of women who have objections on
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: whatever level, to whatever extent, for whatever reason, to IVF,
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: And shouldn't there be options for them? Shouldn't there be
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: other things for them to look into? If that's just
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: off the table.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: I'm wondering if anybody else saw Emily's a Nazi's twitter threat.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: Because.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: We have to cut.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: We just cut that bone.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: No in staying, okay, did you see Amily's a NASTI
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: is that how you say your name? Yes?
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: Yes?
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Did you see a tweet thread about that?
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Because I think that she she yeah, and it was incredible.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: She's one of my best friends. So I don't know.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Let's get her on the phone right now.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: So I don't. I don't want to, I don't know
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: what she said in her thread, and so I don't
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: want to share anything that she's told me in confidence
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: that she didn't publicly say. What did she say?
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: I'll just summarize what she said, okay, Okay. So basically
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: she weighed in on this whole discourse and said, like,
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: while rr M can be a great thing because I
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: think she got two kids from it, its pregnancy is
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: three kids. Okay, it's not all oh she had twins,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: It's not. She basically said, like, it's not all rainbows
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: and fairy tales. And it was really tough as well
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: as being.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so what I mean what ended up being wrong
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: with So she had a lot of frustration that everyone
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: was just like, well, just do AFF and she's super
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: Catholic and this this I know she's talked about a
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: lot about the fact that she wouldn't do IVF, and
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: it was very painful because every doctor she went to
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: it was like, well, just do IVF. She's like, no,
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: that's not an option. And so what ended up doing
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: the trick was like a pretty simple fix because she
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: had ENDO and and they repaired internal damage and voila,
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: and like really it was a bloa lah like it
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: was very very quick. The whole process was ten years
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: or so. Like it took it was awful, but it
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: took her a very long time, Like going back, took
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: her very long time to find someone who would take
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: her seriously, and it took her a very long time
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: to find a care provider that didn't just say, well,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: just do IVF. That's just that's the answer, and that's
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: always like, that's I think the easy button for a
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: lot of you know, doctors and experts is well, yeah, just.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Do the why somebody would go like, because I guess
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: with IVF like statistically or probably more guaranteed a baby.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: Probably, I mean it's just easier with.
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: Multiple rounds of IVF. I think with your first round
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: it's about almost thirty percent likelihood of getting a baby.
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: And I think there was a study that of URM
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: participants that after two years it was similar about thirty
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: percent likelihood of having a child. But if you keep
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: doing IVF rounds, your percentage is going to go up.
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: But it's also more and more hormones and it's more
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: and more expensive.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Also, isn't it kind of crazy that IVF like doesn't
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: work that much. I feel like we're all like, you'll old.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: IVF is the answer. And then when you look at
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the statistics I was looking at, if you're forty years
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: old and you do IVF, you have a seven percent
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: chance of getting pregnant. That like blew my mind.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Wow, I didn't know it was that low.
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: Now.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: I've written a lot about the freezer eggs stuff because
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: I feel like it's a false bill of goods that
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: were selling women that like, you can have it all.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: You can freeze your eggs and then come back to
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: them later. Like it's like it's hamburger buns in your freezer,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: and it's it doesn't really work that often. And what's
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: wild and like one of these like tragic ironies of
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: life is there was a woman who was on the
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: cover of some magazine I don't remember what it was,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: and it was like the headline was freeze your eggs,
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Unfreeze your future or something like that, and she did
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: this whole spread cover piece about the fact that she
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: froze her eggs so she could pursue a high powered
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: corporate career. And then you fast forward to when she
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: tried to un un you know, thaw them ountain use
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: them and that nothing, nothing worked, And that was like, yeah,
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: that's that's pretty much egg freezing for you. You're you're
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: putting a lot of eggs in that basket and the
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: basket's not very sturdy.
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: And I don't think people realize that too, because Jennifer
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: Andison has talked about her you trying to have a kid,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: and she said at one point, I wish someone had
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: just told me just freeze your eggs.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: Right, which didn't exist back then.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Also m hmm, but I mean even if she had
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: been able to, that's not a guarantee.
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that really that that kind of line of
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: stuff really bothers me. And I think a lot of
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: sort of celebrity culture with having kids is really toxic.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: Like what's her name, Jennifer Lopez having a baby at
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: fifty right, And there was another actress who had twins,
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: Hillary Swank had twins at forty eight, and like when
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: they don't talk about everything that had to happen to
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: achieve that, it's I'm sorry, it is wild how stupid
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: so many women are that they're like, well, I can
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: do it. Jennifer Lopez did it and Hillary Swanked and
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: I'm like, do you. I'm sorry, do you not realize?
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Like, no, I hear this all. This is the number
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: one thing that infuriates me when a boomer is like, ah,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: focus on your job. You know you're gonna have twins
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: at fifty now, It's like no. You know, one person
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: went through like twelve brands of IVF.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: With like donated eggs and donated sperm, and they don't nothing.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: None of that is disclosed. And women are so dumb
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: that they just see the headline Hillary Swank pregnant with
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: twins at forty eight and they're like, great, I can
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: do that. I got all the time. I know someone
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: who changed her trying to be vague, was she was
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: told to make a medical decision that would render her
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: infertile but was the right move for her medically. And
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: she was like, well, I want I want to preserve
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: my fertility. And I was like, for what exactly? Because
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: you're forty two and single and not dating, so.
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: What are like an dang bethany No?
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: But everyone, no one would say it. And so she
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: had all these doctors like, well we could like do
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: this instead. I'm like, but why, Like you're making a
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: dangerous decision right now, like you should cut all of
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: that out and like the boat has sailed. I'm sorry
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: you're forty two and not dating. You should make the
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: choice that will keep you alive to forty five.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: Wait. Speaking of Jennifernist, and I feel like she was
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: also in the discourse this week for talking about how
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: she didn't want to adopt and my adoption was just
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: like not going to be an option because she wanted
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: her kids to be like her biological kids and she
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: wasn't wanting to do it otherwise and had so much backlash,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: which I find really Yeah, it's.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: Such a personal decision.
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's totally valid to say I want
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: to have my own kids. Adoption is not like it's
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: kind of it's a categorically different thing than like birthing
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: your own child, Like that's its own calling, with its
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: own you know, a lot of adoptions are open now.
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: It's not the same as just being like, you know, oh,
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: well I couldn't make my own kids, We'll just get
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: a different one, you know.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: No, I have a number of friends who have adopted,
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: and it's it's hard, and it's hard forever. Although I
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: will say I don't think it would be hard as
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: for like Jennifer Anison, as it was for my friends.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I think she'd get her pick of children, you know,
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: whose parents weren't drug addicts beforehand.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know, wait I was, you know. So Diane
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Keaton died rip love her. I found out on the
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: news that she I think she adopted kids in her fifties.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Nick and I were talking about it and being like,
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: imagine being adopted by woman in her fifties, a single
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: woman in her fifties. And on top of that, it's
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Diane Keaton go insane, insane.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: Kind of a plot to that one movie she was in.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: Do you know what I'm talking about?
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: No, she was in Baby Baby Boom.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah that's is that right?
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: I don't know the young woman and then she ends
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: up with the baby.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really funny. I said something on Twitter that
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: got me like a little bit of heat about her,
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: and I didn't actually implicitly say it about her, but
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: I was talking about her and I was like, I
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: think it's really selfish to have children in your fifties,
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: Like you're not going to see them have children. You're
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: maybe going to see them get married either, they're going
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: to be in you're gonna be in your eighties when
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: they get married, probably, And I don't like I don't
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: like it. I think it's not fair to your kids.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: I think it's really selfish.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Actually, every person that I know that had kids in
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: their late forties or fifties is now in their seventies
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: and regrets it a lot.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: The people who had the kid regret it.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they just say like, why didn't
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: I do it? Ten twenty is And it's pretty sad.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: It's very you can't physically be there in the same way.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: And it always like having kids in your fifties always
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: comes with a lot of like intervention, probably like no
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: one naturally has children in their it's a real choice
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: to have a kid in your fifties.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know you have. You always hear of those sites,
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: and it's always women who have had multiple kids, so
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: they're probably more fertile, and they go to the hospital
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: with menipaul symptoms and then they're like, oh, guess what
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: you fourteen?
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah? No, But I do think it's different, like if
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: you're like, oh my god, I got pregnant at fifty,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: you're like, that's rare. I'm talking about the Diane keatons
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: of the world who adopt like fifty four, yeah, and
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: make that choice very firmatively. So my and I said
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: this because even though my parents actually had me very young,
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: the odds are much much, much, much much higher that
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: if you're having a kid at fifty five, that your
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: kid is going to be in their teens when they're
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: burying you. And I was in my teens when I
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: buried both of my parents. Zero stars. I don't recommend it,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: wouldn't wish it on anyone, and I think it's I
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: think it's selfish to, you know, want to have a
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: child so much that you would doom them to burying
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: you in their teens or twenties, and also having to
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: deal with elder care in their teens and twenties. I now,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: I'm almost forty, and a lot of my friends I
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: got out of it because my parent's dead, but a
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: lot of my friends are dealing with elder care now,
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh my god, this is awful. They're
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: having to deal with like their kids, and it's the
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: sandwich stuff their kids and their aging parents, and it's
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: really difficult. And I can't imagine doing that to someone
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: who's nineteen. They can't do it. That's my controversial opinion.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's by controversial. I think you're just
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: the only one to say.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I intentionally waited a few days after
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: she died and then chows a different news story to
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: peg my statement on, because I don't want to get
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: canceled and I don't want to, like, I don't want
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: to be mean to a woman who just died. Yeah,
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, obviously I'm saying it on this podcast. Whatever,
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: I'm not that good.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: But it's been a bit of time now people will
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: get out. I'm so just okay. I feel like we
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: should let Maddie go back to her child, who is
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: probably hungry by now.
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: Probably he also hasn't taken a bottle yet, so that's
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: been fun.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: Oh no, well, good luck to you.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: My advice, the advice that I've been given from friends
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: who had to do this, is just leave the house,
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: leave them with their dad to work it out.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: I had kids always most of my kids refuse the bottle,
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: and I tried that with all of them. When I
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: came back to a lot of tears.
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: The other day, I was out for a while and
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: then I rushed back home and he was had not
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: been taking the bottle.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: So, Anthony, do you have any advice?
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: No, I'm clearly a failure. I just said that.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: I'm actually not too worried about it. I feel I
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: have a little bit of I think, attachment issues with him,
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: So I don't mind.
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: I have attachment issues with all of my children. I
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: ask all of my sons if they'll marry me, like
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: fifteen times a day.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: You're like to talk to boy, I hope I never
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: have fun because my mom is so weird.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Have you ever read the book I Love You
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: Forever and the woman like puts a ladder that? Yeah,
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: I thought it was I thought it was weird until
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: I had a son, and then I was like, so
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: where she's coming.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: From, you're insane.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: All right, Well, thank you so much for coming on.
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: Let's make this a more regular thing because it's so
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: easy to just text you and schedule you and it's
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: a delight and an easy, wonderful conversation.
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: I would love it. Thanks for having me amazing.
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: All right, until next time, Saddle.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Up Ricochet
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: Join the conversation.