Latest / Yoshi's Podcast / #106 | Victor Salander – fighting cancer, conventional vs alternative treatment, chemo and much more

Transcript

#106 | Victor Salander – fighting cancer, conventional vs alternative treatment, chemo and much more · Yoshi's Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: You come prepared this time.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back, Victor.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Come prepared with quite a different energy, I'd say.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's nice.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's nice.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I see you before we started, you started writing down a bunch of stuff that you want to talk about.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: So you're you're ready.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: You're pumped up.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Much, much appreciated.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Big welcome back.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: How do you say your last name when you speak English?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Salander?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Victor Salander?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I looked it up some time ago where that name comes from.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: And Sala is a Swedish city.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even remember where it is, but there used to be a silver mine in Sala.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there are these something-ander family names in Sweden.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And one theory is it has something to do with the male surname Anders.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, there was a guy who was named Anders who came from the city of Sala.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Might be it.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Could be.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it sounds, for me, it sounds very Latin.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, Salander, Santander.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite...
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: I would agree with that.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Works globally.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: My name is terrible in English.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's pretty bad in Swedish as well, Alyosha.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Originally, it's pronounced Alyosha.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: Then in Sweden, we sweetified it to Alyosha.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then in English, it just never made sense.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I've always gone by a nickname when I'm in the US or somewhere English speaking.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because Alyosha, it just doesn't work.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it could be like Al, like the in Arabic and then something else.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm kind of surprised no one has ever thought that I'm like from that part of the
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: world or that tried to spell it like Al and dash Yosha or anything like that.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's never happened.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: I've had a bunch of people think that when they just see my name in writing that
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a female because they feel like Al Yosha is a female name.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like Aisha or something.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Could be, yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: But like Alyosha sounds almost a bit like a nickname in Russian.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, it is a nickname?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a nickname for Alexei.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, okay, that's why I recognize it.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, I've heard people be called Alyosha.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, both my brother and I got Russian nicknames for our names.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: When you got your names in Sweden.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, when we got our names when we were born.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because in Yugoslavia,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: you can immediately tell which ethnicity someone has and religion by their name,
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: generally.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: And my parents wanted to avoid that.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: They've never felt like, you know, any specific Yugoslavian ethnicity.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: They always felt like Yugoslavia is one people, one country.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: So they wanted to give us names that don't immediately put us in one of these boxes
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: that are...
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: In harm's way.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: In the crosshairs of someone.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: They saw something coming, maybe.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was... Yeah.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was very... Yeah.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Foreseeing.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very foreseeing.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: But now I have a Russian nickname, so, you know.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I have a Russian very good friend from high school.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: He was...
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: officially named Misha when he moved to Sweden.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: But his actual name is Mikhail.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: But then now everyone in Sweden calls him Misha.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's living abroad now.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: He's also called Misha.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: No one calls him Mikhail apart from his mother.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's a few of those in English as well.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like, people call Dick.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: They're really Richard.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: And Bill is usually William.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: There's a bunch of these names that are just... You're always known by your nickname.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as many things in language...
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: people could be saying language deteriorates like it's being simplified and part of
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: it I think is migration like a lot of migration tends to mellow out these nuances
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: in language or like new nuances come up but yeah the older generation is always
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: saying like yeah we're bastardizing the language but I mean I guess it's changing
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: names is such a thing that seems to be getting simpler and simpler kind of
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure that goes in trends.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it goes in waves.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Kids nowadays, they're named like their grandparents.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: It goes in waves.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, usually does that.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Last time you were here, we spoke in Swedish.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Now we're here speaking in English.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: How come?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I requested it.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think the main topic that we might be discussing quite a lot today is quite a global one.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite a timeless one, even though we will get into...
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: When we get into the thick of it,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'll also be speaking about that it's maybe ever more present and even more of an
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: actuality for people nowadays than it used to be,
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: namely cancer.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very much an actuality for me as I dropped the news in our last time
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: speaking that I had just been diagnosed with a spread cancer.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like a stage four cancer.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And since we met last time, when was that?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was like...
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was somewhere in July.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: July, yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we met like four days after I got the diagnosis or something.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Crazy.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So my energy levels weren't that high.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't slept well either.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll be bringing more energy to this conversation.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be as informative as I can.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I wanted to be in English as well.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we can get this information out that I feel is valuable and has been very valuable for me in my case.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's going to be useful for some people out there.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: yeah that's great and english is a bit more of a wider reach than a little bit a
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: little bit a little bit now that sounds great yeah you you mentioned that last time
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: we talked i think it was a wednesday and you had you were told on on friday the
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: week before that so so not even not not not even a week after your diagnosis you
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: you sat down to talk to me and i very much appreciated that you did that because
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously we had a great conversation and obviously I know that part of you
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: probably wanted to skip it because you had other shit to think about.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: But you came, you spent your valuable time with me and I very much appreciated it.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: And the lower energy you mentioned, it's not something that I noticed at least.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: i i i couldn't tell i'll give you some contrast today yeah yeah sounds good uh but
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: but i i didn't suspect anything like that and then suddenly like two hours into the
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: conversation you dropped the bomb i'm like oh
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's telling as well.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like we as modern day humans were quite good at keeping a mask on.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of kept the mask on for the first part of our conversation.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Then I dropped that mask.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's also an interesting aspect of the whole thing of also being seriously ill.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like how do you approach that in terms of communicating to other people?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: How do you want to approach it differently?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: When you socialize with other people,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I felt a really clear difference in terms of energy level,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: or tolerance to stimuli or like stressors in your environment where you might
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: before your diagnosis,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: you might have had a different tolerance level.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's also been a journey I've been on, which we'll probably get into.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Do you also feel that tolerance level is different with other people?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned this whole thing, like how to communicate with people when you have a serious illness.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: I know not everyone, a lot of people can get uncomfortable.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you would tell someone that you have stage four cancer that a lot of people
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: can be don't know how to act and like,
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: treat you differently.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: Suddenly you're talking a different way because they're worried about offending you
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: or whatever,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Is that something you've you've experienced or?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: One thing I wouldn't have expected beforehand was how different people react and
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: how differently people approach you when they're given this information and how
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: differently they respond emotionally to this information.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there are many layers to why that is.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: One might be that some people might have a difficulty handling...
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: How this makes them having to think about their own possibility of getting lethal illness.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Their own mortality.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like suddenly being faced with death.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they might have had that in their history as well, their personal history.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: They might be scarred because of some personal trauma, which of course needs to be understood.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: empathized with um but it's very clear how different people react differently when
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: when faced with someone close to them or maybe not super close to them um breaking
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: the news that they're they have a serious illness um one thing i noticed was um
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: like there is a risk if if people just sympathize or like empathize with you but
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: they're not really fully there listening to you it's it's like
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I had a feeling when I started breaking the news to some people that they were like,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry for you.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was like a distance being created.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, okay, I'm really sorry.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I hope for the best in terms of,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: let's hope that this treatment that you're going to get supposedly is going to help you.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: But that was about it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: But what I noticed personally when I got this diagnosis was...
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: my whole mindset shifted before getting a diagnosis.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's when I was very, I was very worried because I didn't know what the hell was going on.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I had these vague symptoms going on for weeks and I was basically in the hands of
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: the first line primary healthcare system to get a diagnosis,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: to even get tested,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: to properly get tested,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: to end up with a diagnosis.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that was my
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: big period of worrying yeah which took like six weeks or more uh where i felt
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: powerless i felt like i didn't have it in my own hands to control the situation or
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: what the hell was going on and then once i got the diagnosis um obviously the first
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: few days as i as i alluded to in our last time speaking
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I looked at the stats,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: which I think most people,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: if they use the internet,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to look at the stats for their diagnosis.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they're going to see,
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: for any cancer diagnosis,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: especially if it's spread,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: they're going to see a curve,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: try and depict it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a rate of death.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So how quickly people die of this disease.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like...
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a curve that's slowly getting thinner and thinner.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then by the end of it, you still have people surviving for quite a long time.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like the tail of the dispersion of the distribution.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's the exceptions.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: exactly um but then you have to keep in mind like okay who are you as an individual
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: when you contract this disease right i'm relatively young i think of myself as
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: having relatively healthy habits even from before and i'll be getting into how i
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: tweak those habits quite aggressively as well to to try and improve my chances so
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: anything you can do to improve
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: on your odds that that will increase the chances of you ending up on that tail end
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: of the curve right and i think there's also learning to to be made that most people
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: might not be making all of those adjustments in their lifestyle because making
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: changes to your habits and your lifestyle and your life goals can be quite hard to
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: do yeah and upon talking like now that i've had this for
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: a few months and i've reached out and i've like i've started to send out quite a
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: lot of social media content regarding my journey um i've gotten in touch with more
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: and more other cancer patients and in some of them i do feel kind of a
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: reticence like a kind of force that they don't want to change too much like they
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: still want to be able to live life is kind of a quote you can hear recurringly like
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: yeah i still want to be able to go out and have fun um but if if you go too much
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: towards not adjusting your life to this new situation then you're not going to be
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: able to adjust your habits and
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: No one will know exactly the formula for everything to perfectly line up to fight
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: this disease,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: but you most probably will have to adjust something if you want to improve your odds.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about enjoying life in my view.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: The way I approach it is a fucking war.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in a war now.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: I never did military service, but this is my war.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm in a bunker.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was literally in a bunker.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: After we spoke,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of hid in my bunker for two months,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: just tweaking everything I could and bearing with the treatment and trying to
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: adjust and fine tune and just tinker with everything I could,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: like reading hundreds of scientific papers.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't make any adjustments...
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: even if you accept the healthcare program and what they give you in terms of treatment,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: you're not really helping your odds.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a very important aspect of getting a diagnosis.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: How do you want to support yourself in this situation?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to take ownership or do you want to give away that ownership to a system, to a doctor?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: because obviously they have their part to play unless you want to just veer away
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: from everything in terms of conventional treatment then you're going on this whole
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: side route which I think is also risky thing to do
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you most probably want to accept some kind of conventional treatment,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: whatever that will be,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: if you have a serious disease.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all like propaganda about taking some poison that's going to destroy you
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: but never do you any good.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But then you have to think about what do you want to do in this situation.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also a psychological aspect to that.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just feeling that you're doing something.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just feeling that you're having at least a partial ownership in this very serious situation.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to help you get up in the morning.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to help you strive for something on the margins.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's always on the margins.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: You...
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Life is so complex that there's never like a one-size-fits-all solution or a
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: perfect formula on how to solve this.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like any life crisis.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: It could be biological in terms of a disease.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: It could be like a relationship that you're struggling with.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's never like, oh, you take this course and now your life crisis is suddenly evaporating.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like...
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: now you see the light and you feel this inner harmony no it's a journey you have to
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: like nudge things in in the direction that you feel is better than another
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: direction right all the small steps we take today affect greatly our future pretty
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: much yeah and what i felt in this crisis situation it's a lot about habits like
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: adjusting your habits and finding
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: yeah i mean in engineering language finding processes yeah before we get into that
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: uh give us a reminder what was the diagnosis you received and uh how how far along
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: was it when when you received it and so on yeah quick recap um so i was on a
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: vacation lovely vacation in italy in tuscany with my girlfriend we spent about two
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: weeks there
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: There was like a three, four day wedding of a couple of our friends set up on a hill.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: We like the whole group,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: the wedding group had reserved really nice monastery,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: like an old stone monastery,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: just beautiful scenery,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: beautiful wedding.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: But during this time when we had like a week left on our vacation,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I started feeling a lump on the side of my neck.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not a huge lump.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's literally like a lymph node.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have an infection like a virus or bacteria, you get the flu.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: You might have...
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: fever and you might sometimes you get this like a lymph node that's swollen in your
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: neck around your loin area close to your like loins and groin yeah I've gotten them
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: a few times and there's nothing else about it like sometimes you don't have any
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: other symptoms it's just a bit swollen yeah
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't have any other symptoms,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: so I went home,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: waited a week,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: went back to work,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: and then I started feeling these diffuse symptoms,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: like I felt some pulsating pain or throbbing pain,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: some heat around my neck area.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't sleep properly, felt like my energy levels were off, and...
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think I also gradually started worrying more and more about what this was.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I couldn't properly sleep.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Went to primary care, which in Sweden means you're first going to this...
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: very generalist practitioner that kind of has a manual on how to act when when
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: meeting any any symptoms that are like baseline symptoms and if they wouldn't know
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: they they just refer you to a specialist or or to emergency
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: um and there he was kind of the guy i was meeting he was he was very passive about
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: the whole thing um he gave me an ultrasound a month away um then a few weeks a few
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: days later i i couldn't sleep again so i went to the emergency unit um and then
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: they just sent me back home they didn't see anything and then
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: i went there a few days later and with every time going i i got like maybe an extra
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: blood test and by like the sixth time i was there they finally realized that okay
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: maybe we should test for this um so weeks had passed and there was a
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: miscommunication in total it took like six weeks for me to get tested in terms of
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: them doing a biopsy there and then by that time i'd also noticed two other things
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: here
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: So they tested those three,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: and what came up was that I had cancer,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: which did not originate in the lymph system.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Rather, it originated somewhere else in the body.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: What they did then was they did a PET scan,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: basically a whole body PET scan,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: where you're fed sugar,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: because that's an interesting aspect.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get into cancer cells in general.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: They love sugar.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: They love glucose.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you're fed sugar, you have to fast beforehand, then you're fed sugar.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And about an hour later,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: when the sugar has been taken up by your body and especially by the cancer cells,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: the sugar you were fed,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: it's radioactive.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the PET scan will read off what you're giving out as radioactivity with the
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: glucose being taken up in your body.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what they saw then was a really strong signal here.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right in the middle of your chest, I guess.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: In the middle of my chest in the front part.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: So where the esophagus that you swallow food with meets the gut.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like a...
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: a muscle um a sphincter muscle that's opening and closing when you're swallowing
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: food and that area that's that's where the primary tumor sat okay and it was like
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: three centimeters um was what they
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: saw when they went in to confirm it so then they went in with this gastroscopy so
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: like an endoscope big hose that they're bringing down your throat and then they're
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: optically confirming if they're able to they want to optically confirm what they
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: saw on the scan so then they could confirm that the primary thing was actually
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: there and it was around three centimeters wide
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: Is that a lot or?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are many tumors that are bigger than that.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say the size of the primary tumor is not the big thing in my case.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: The location is a bit tricky because if I want to do surgery, they would remove that tall muscle.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that would mean I cannot close my esophagus.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the gut is very acidic, so you would get acid reflux up.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the way they do the surgery,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: they might be able to stop a bit of that,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: but you would basically have acid reflux for the rest of your life.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to stay away from that surgery as long as possible.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Understandable.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had a stint of acid reflux in one of my treatment cycles, and I couldn't sleep.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I can imagine that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you're reclining, if you're reclining a little bit, the acid is just coming up.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: when it was at its worst during like three,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: four days,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't recline at all when sleeping.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like collapsing, sleeping one hour.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I woke up with just acid in my mouth.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: you feel like,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: if you have like a bit of a sore throat,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: but this was just all around the throat and the mouth.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up having to learn or like realizing that I could try and sleep sitting.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Which is a thing like I think maybe not too big a thing but there are some Tibetan
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: monks who when they're doing intensive retreats they're sitting sleeping.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I found a blog post about how some people
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think a German guy, he was trying to do that.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the main thing you need to think about is to tie your forehead back.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't, your head is going to slump, and then you're going to wake up.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I had this set up for two, three days where I was sleeping, sitting.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Did it work?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Luckily, the acid reflux dissipated.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: But could you sleep like that, sitting up?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was able to sleep continuously for like three, four hours.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then I woke up and then I could sleep again.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I got almost a full night's sleep, at least one or two of those days.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it helped with the acid?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it might help because if you're having continuous acid reflux,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: it's probably not good for...
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to irritate your throat and esophagus and that whole area.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's constantly irritated, it probably doesn't help to alleviate the symptoms.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I still don't know exactly why I got it,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm suspecting it had something to do with what I'll get to later about the
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: whole thing that I'm...
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using fasting,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: water fasting,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: so not eating anything in conjunction with my chemotherapy and my systemic treatment.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're fasting, you're turning off your gut.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you fast for several days,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: no calories,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: your whole gastrointestinal system,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: your gut is going to turn itself off.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: um and then when you start eating again you need to be very mindful about how how
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: you do that and i think i wasn't paying enough attention to the details so got it
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: it might have been some some mistimings a mismatch there so your gut reacted my gut
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: reacted i think that was it but that that's been one of my challenges to um we'll
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: get to the fasting thing because it's it's
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it's probably the biggest learning,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: the biggest nugget of information that I'd bring to anyone.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: who's about to get systemic therapy in terms of like very toxic chemo right um but
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: yeah let's not rush um we'll get there because fasting is not just for chronically
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: ill people or like people with serious diseases i'm i'm now like an evangelist of
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: fasting yeah it's
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: on the border of having having become a religion to me like even if i could erase
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: any cancer cell from my body tomorrow i would still be fasting um for an extended
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: period of time several times a year because i've seen it firsthand it's so powerful
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm doing just periodic fasting and I've noticed a major shift.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: So just like skipping breakfast or... Yeah, exactly.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Only eating between 12 and 6.30, 7.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm going to do longer, just water fasts.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: just try it out i haven't gotten to it yet do it just think about how to um think
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: about what your natural diet is going into the fast like what you're eating before
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: you start the fast but also how to start refeeding right um it's not rocket science
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: but you kind of have to tweak it and test it out
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: yeah was it in that first scan where they figured out where they saw the three
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: centimeter tumor that they also saw all of the other the lymph nodes lighting up or
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: yeah i mean obviously they already knew that there were things here yeah but that
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: was also confirmed with the scan and then they confirmed
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: that is stretched quite widely.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why it's stage four rather than stage three.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: If it had spread to the lymphatic system,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: but only in the adjacent region,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: just around the GEJ,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: which is called like this gastroesophageal juncture,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: junction,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: where my primary sits.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It would have been staged as stage three.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as it's spread distantly from that primary area, it's staged as stage four.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that means it has spread up here to the cervical region, but it had also spread down towards the gut.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: area like along the spine to like a medial position of the torso but supposedly not
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: all the way to the loins to the iliac region but i'm a bit suspicious there because
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: in the last
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: month or so i felt a lot of activity in the lymph nodes in in that region like
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: around where the legs meet the hip so i'm not fully convinced that you can 100
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: trust scans because they only have a certain level of precision okay they can only
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: detect things that are at least i think it's at least half a half a centimeter in
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: size got it or maybe even one centimeter in
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is there more accurate scanning available?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting one because the first time they do a scan on any cancer patient
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: in Sweden,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to get the PET scan,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: which is gold standard,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: because that one is using the glucose metabolism of cancer to detect the cancer cells.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And with that first scan,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: they're also doing a CT,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: so a computer tomography where they...
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like an x-ray,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: but a bit more detailed.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they're going to look at the density of your tissue.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And cancer cells tend to have a different type of density.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: But the second follow-up scan, interestingly, they don't do a PET in Sweden.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a budget issue.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't had it confirmed,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: but my suspicion is they had to make a budget decision somewhere in terms of the
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: cost of scanning people.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And where should they do that?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: They cannot do it on the first scan because that's like you need to do precision on the first scan.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then I think on the second scan, there's two questions to be asked.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: what will new information about the spread of cancer do in terms of giving an
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: indication that we need to adjust our treatment?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: even if you would see that it's spread to new locations,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: with most patients,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: you would still be going with the same type of treatment.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And also...
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Most people will survive at least until after the first follow-up scan.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the second scan.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Which means it's a big bulk of people that needs to be scanned.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they might reason that, okay...
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Even if the CT scan doesn't pick up on new signals,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: because I think it's quite rare that they're going to pick up on new metastases
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: that have spread to new locations with this.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're basically doing an A-B comparison to the first one.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: um so my my theory there is they just like okay this is the big bulk of follow-up
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: scans let's cut the budget here and then on the third one you're going to get the
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: PET scan right so it's like a big budget saving thing got it which might might
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: might cause some issues for some patients and what's the um how much time is it
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: between these scans
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: i think in sweden the standard is um you do four treatment rounds and those rounds
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: could have different lengths in my case up until just recently my my treatment
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: rounds or what i call my treatment cycles they've been 14 days long okay so after
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: your first scan you do the treatments after four cycles you get the second scan
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: so I had the scan and then it took like two,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: three weeks until we started treatment because I was looking for alternatives and I
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: didn't find any unless I would be moving to the US for treatment basically for some
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: clinical trial,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: which is quite a hassle.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I joined the standard recommended treatment.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And after starting,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: there were four rounds,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: so eight weeks basically until I got the first follow-up scan,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: which was two weeks ago.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then now we have another four cycles before I have the second follow-up.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: Got it, where the pet returns.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: the return of the pet,
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: getting glucose into my body,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: which I don't want in any other instance than when they're scanning me.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's also an interesting perspective of cancer we'll get to with glucose and that whole thing.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: All right, so tell us about the treatment.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: What happened after you got your diagnosis and,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: how the,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: do you get like alternatives or is it like this is the treatment and how does it
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: work and what do you do?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it all depends on what type of cancer you have.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So one level to look at what type of cancer you have is where does it stem from?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: What was the original cell or the original cells in your body?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: What type of cells were those that...
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: turned into cancer cells right and on the roughest level that would be where in
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: what organ did it originate but then you could go deeper and say okay it originated
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: in this area of the body but what was the actual type of cell in that organ that
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: originated in this cancer
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: So in my area around the region between the gut and esophagus,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: there are basically two main types of cells that could originate into a cancer.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I have one of them.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the next thing you look at is, okay, what are the alternatives in terms of treatment for this?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And for some types of cancers, research has come further.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a larger variety of options.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have a bigger arsenal, a bigger portfolio of potential treatments.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And for others,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: like mine,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: the options are a bit more limited,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: but things have happened in the last few years,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: which has enabled some additional treatments in addition to
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: the bread and butter the gold standard as they call it which is for most cancers
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: especially the solid tumors so the ones that are not in the blood the non-lymphoma
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: type cancers so that would be any solid tumor such as the one I have or if it's in
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: the lungs or in the breasts or in the pancreas or in the brain all of those are
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: like solid tumors got it
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: And for those, the gold standard is still chemotherapy as a systemic treatment.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you're getting it into your system, system wide.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that is always the case if you have a spread tumor.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a tumor that's only local,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: so you can't see on the scan that it's spread to distant regions or to other regions,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: the healthcare system could be recommending the more local treatments to start and
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: not even go on with the systemic treatment.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: That would mean you could get away with only getting...
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: radiation and or surgery right which is not necessarily less damaging or less risky
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: but yeah but if if it's spread you need to go with systemic therapy basically if
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: you're going the conventional route yeah um and i when i was thinking about
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: chemotherapy i mean as soon as you google it you see all the downsides of it and
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: there are clear downsides to any systemic yeah it's basically poison poison
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in Swedish it's called cellgift, right?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Which is literally translated as cell poison or cellular poison.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a more apt, more suitable term.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Chemotherapy, it's like a euphemism.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know a euphemism?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: They're softening the blow of the term.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, oh, it's...
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's chemical and it's therapeutic.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that sounds nice.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: But in Swedish, you could call it cellular poison, which is exactly what it is.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's targeting widely the mechanism that all of our body cells have where in order
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: for our organism to survive,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: our cells need to divide and multiply because our cells will grow old.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: They will deteriorate at a single cell level.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: so they need to um they need to divide we need like our stem stem cells we need our
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: bodies uh cells to keep dividing um yeah and chemotherapy does
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: target that so in different ways depending on the type of chemotherapy it's it's
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: gonna make use of that your body cells are dividing right and the rationality the
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: rationale is that cancer cells divide quicker and more often than your other cells
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: your healthy cells
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: which is partially true, but then there are many cellular populations in your body.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: A prominent example is your gut, where your cells divide a lot.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember the half time of your gut, but I think your gut is replaced fully.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: Your gut lining,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: the cells in your gut lining,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: your healthy cells,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: they're replaced fully in a week or two.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: which means there will be a lot of cells dividing in your gut whilst you're getting this therapy.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And chemo then does so that it does something to put...
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: to put a stick in the machinery to... Right, to slow it down.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: To kind of break the whole machinery of cell division,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: which means you're breaking the architecture of the cell.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to break down or it's going to become...
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: a damaged cell that could lead to issues straight away or it could lead to issues later down the line.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: You even have the potential of secondary metastases due to chemotherapy.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: What does that mean?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: So like you could in the future,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: it's not like a super high chance,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: but if you're getting chemotherapy,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: even if it would eradicate your cancer cells because of the damage done by the
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: chemotherapy itself,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: you could potentially get a new metastasis.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: Cause different, cause another cancer somewhere else.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Cause of the damage that the chemotherapy itself has done.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: It is a crazy idea, chemotherapy.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Whoever thought of that, that was... I mean, it all came from... It's a crazy idea.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: It all came from war, like biological warfare.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, mustard gas was one of the first chemos.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And... Yeah, that shit spanned in war, even.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: During First or Second World War,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: they identified that just by chance it kind of seemed to have an effect on cancer.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: So they were like, okay, let's think about using this biological poison on patients in civil society.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then it became this big medical industry.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Crazy.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: As many other inventions, they came through war, which is...
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's an indication of where we put our resources.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was just reading this book called How to Hide an Empire.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it's pretty much about the US history and how it has been an empire from the beginning.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: And they talk about World War II and how great it was for US industry and
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: innovation because obviously they were spared from attacks on their own grounds.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like Sweden.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like Sweden.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: But they also supplied the entire allied world with everything.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: So this required a lot of innovation and there was a tremendous boom in both
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: engineering and medicine and a bunch of technologies.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like the whole war,
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: the sea war in the Atlantic,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: the more I think about it,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a buff on Second World War.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know the details,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: but I know the Americans started to get,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm correct in my knowledge,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: one of the reasons the Americans started to get gradually more involved was because
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: there were so many conflicts in the Atlantic.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe part of the reason was they needed to protect their own supply chains.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because they need to sell these stuff to keep their economic machinery growing.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, it's all about perspectives.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: I guess the Germans would say we were attacking those ships because they were
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: supplying weapons to the people who were attacking.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, for sure, there was a lot of supply lanes being shut down.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: But since then,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: America has kind of tried to own global supply chains quite heavily with use of
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: protective military force.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you...
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: When new resource types have come up and been exploited and discovered around the world,
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: America has most often been the one there to be very quickly on point and be there.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: They won the war.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess there have always been precursors to what America has done.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing with empire, right?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: You need to secure the resources in order for the empire to sustain itself.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: An empire needs to have a surplus of resources so it can like...
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: retain um conserve the power the concentration of power among the elite and then
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: that elite will strengthen itself and
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: find enough allies in in the fringes of the empire to to keep the borders intact
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: and like yeah an empire cannot really just be stable like a smaller nation can be
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: quite stable and like stay to to a similar size but an empire needs to grow
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: otherwise it's gonna shrink
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's how it usually goes.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: What's cool about the US empire after World War II is that they also started
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: protecting everyone else's shipping,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: which was very nice of them.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: Not a lot of winning superpowers have done something like that.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: No winning superpowers have ever done something like that after a major war.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: The US decided to protect worldwide shipping.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, they had their reasons.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: They wanted to,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_03: since they were pretty much the only market that was not decimated by the war,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: everyone would be selling to the US market.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: So they were making money off of it.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: But still, it gave the world, I don't know, 70 years of peace and prosperity, pretty much.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: But as empires do, they got a little bit cocky.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: And now we're seeing the results.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think it's interesting, like empire building.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, there are some indirect benefits of it for humanity.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if you read the history books on like Napoleon or one of the big Chinese
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: emperors or I mean,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: even like Mao Zedong or someone more contemporary that,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: did a lot of bad stuff.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: one of the relatively good things that is often described in history books are
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: these standardizations,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: like standardizations of measures and processes.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was huge after World War II.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like, it's kind of hygiene factor for increasing globalization.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: If we all stick to our own standards, I mean, typical thing is currency.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a fan of the US dollar, but it did become a global currency.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And just the fact that you have a global currency is helping a lot in terms of
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: facilitating and lubricating trade.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you have those like throughout history,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: when you look at the big empires,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: there were some kind of standardization.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Mongolians,
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: they introduced like very efficient couriers where they had like horses that were
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: manned at specific distances so they could send information across their wide
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: empire which stretched the whole of Eurasia in no time in relative measures.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like...
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: uh china had a lot of um during some dynasties they had a lot of infrastructure
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: efficiencies that spread throughout the empire and like rome had a lot of stuff as
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: well um of course interesting thing though with rome they had aqueducts which are
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: always like embraced as one of the big things but what i learned when i was in
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: italy this summer was before the roman empire the etruscans had
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: maybe just as good systems for transporting water which were underground and these
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: were covered by the Romans like they just sacked and pillaged and raced those so
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: often it's like there's a switch but
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: not necessarily starting from scratch.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing I was thinking about now with the US empire,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: and you said like controlling global supply chains is containerization.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: So like standardizing containers.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have a book at home, which I need to get to, but as many books, they're just laying there.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's about how I think like
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Internally in the US, there was on the Hudson River, I think they started with standardizing containers.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was a big lobbying going on for that to become a global standard.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, like some US corporations benefited hugely in the initial stages of...
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: standardizing this that's that's always going to be the case if you standardize
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: there are some some people that are the front runners in terms of lobbying and of
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: course setting the standards and they're going to get like a big big deal out of it
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: initially but then you get a standard that is more global and it's going to make
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: things more efficient um
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: But then again, I don't want a world federation of standards and governance.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: So part of me is very, very much against it in terms of the downsides of like having a world federation.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a complicated thing, this whole empire building business.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: But we don't seem to be able to get away from it.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: Every now and then a new superpower tries to do something crazy and that's the
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: history of the world pretty much.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just we're evolving as a society,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: as a species,
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: we're evolving to have like gradually increasing levels of complexity.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it just goes to show like there's this novel about the pencil and like an
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: economics novel,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: economic theory where...
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: the core tenet is no single human has the full knowledge right to be able to at a
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: large scale manufacturer uh pencils pencil right because there are so many steps
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: there are so many parts at play in terms of that full supply chain sourcing the raw
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: material
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: designing the pencil getting all the different raw materials combined at different
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: stages and it's just like a graphite pencil yeah and it's one of the simplest
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: inventions we have yeah and look at everything we have now like yeah a mobile phone
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: yeah i don't think anyone could even like fully plot the whole supply chain for a
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_03: mobile phone no impossible
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_03: I've heard of it as an interesting thought experiment.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: If everyone on the planet remained with all of the knowledge we have right now,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: but all of our technology disappeared,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: all of our factories,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: mines,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: everything is gone,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: but we have all of the knowledge that we have today,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: how long would it take to produce a pencil?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a question for me?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's an interesting thought experiment.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: We have all the knowledge that we've possessed today, but all of our technology is gone.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you need to build those bridges.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: You need to build those physical processes.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know it from your own life.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just think of something in theory and suddenly it materializes.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: There are habits at play.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: There are processes.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are relations between human beings and...
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: other human beings between human beings and machinery right someone needs to get up
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: in the morning and do something yeah in order for a to pass to b to pass to c and
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: then be combined with d um so you said to recreate everything just a pencil ah just
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: a pencil yeah
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: We have no technology.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if all of humanity are geared to recreate that process, it would be quite quick.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: I doubt that it would be quick even if we were geared to.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: We need to feed ourselves.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's no food.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: We'd be fucked.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: We'd start with food.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we would start with tearing each other up, that's what I believe.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think some regions in the world would suffer from starvation for quite a while
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: because you need to start from scratch.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we'd go back way to the... We'd be heavily overpopulated for a while.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: All of our intelligence would mean nothing.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: It wouldn't be nothing.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what am I going to do with my podcasting and copywriting skills when we need to make food?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you would first need to manufacture a microphone.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: I would become food.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I would be.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_03: You would be what?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: I would become food.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I would be.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's maybe the first stage, like a zombie apocalypse setting.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: The only people who would survive would be the people who already lived that way,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: like the hunter-gatherers.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking of the prepper movement.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: they would survive for a while,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: but they would still need to get to hunter-gatherers to survive long term.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Or become hunter-gatherers.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting, the prepper movement.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: When I was working at Lidl for a short period of time,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing kind of an internship,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: planning promotions for the non-food.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: And me,
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: or I think it was a colleague of mine who had the idea,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: we would try and source like prepper goods.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know Lidl, they have like the non-food.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: You might be there to find an electric drill or a microwave or a tent.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever and we were like looking at the existing assortment but also thinking
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: of new products to source we wouldn't be the ones sourcing it it would be sourced
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: by Germany but then on the prepper theme so we would be want to try and sell this
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: theme to the whole group kind of
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: We never followed through on it.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was just there for a few weeks, but it was a lot of fun.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't looked into Prepper stuff before that,
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: but I kind of did an internal pitch to the team about the Prepper movement.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it also included some of this terminology that they use, like WSTF.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: When shit hits the fan.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: How long ago was this when you were pitching this?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: It was like five years ago.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: You were ahead of your time.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's why.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was surging then.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: If it was two or three years ago, they would have been like, yeah, let's do this.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was a bit too early.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking why we looked at it back then.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was before.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was pre-COVID.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: Something else must have happened.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, a lot of shit was happening.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: What was the before COVID kind of wide... ISIS was a big thing.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess the war in Ukraine had already started with Crimea being taken over and
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: Donbass being in a war.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was part of that.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's so crazy to think about the time before this war or before COVID.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: It was a different planet, different world.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have such a bad conception of time.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it feels like yesterday.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: This time passes so fast for me.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: The past few years?
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like the news flow about the conflict.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because maybe I don't follow it as closely as you.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: You probably have more of a clear timeline in your head.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: But then again, like some of these conflicts, the news...
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: the news flow unless unless you're actively looking for that specific news flow it
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: kind of dissipates the frequency of updates goes down because now there's a new
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: conflict in town and the the human conscience in in a certain part of the world is
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: seemingly yeah uh not
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: not large enough not like able to absorb enough information that it can handle two
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: or more conflicts at a time so it feel like ukraine for example is i don't know
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: what's been going on in the last few months i think we're recording this what is it
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: november 15th i think no wait 20th 21st 20th 20th
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: But this will be posted, I think, in January.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of stuff might have happened until this is released.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: But basically, things are not going great in Ukraine.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's why the Western media is not covering it as much in the past, let's say, six months.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's not a very rosy story.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a stalemate or is Russia actually... Russia is advancing and has been for a while.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know last time I checked,
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: they do have quite a clear control of significant areas,
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: like even reaching a lot of the,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: like Caspian Sea.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like some of the most strategic ports, right?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean... What's the situation with Mariupol?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: uh i think mario polo has been down for a long time okay yeah that's that's how up
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: to date i am yeah no i i mean if unless you're following a conflict closely you're
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: not gonna get a full picture from just you know casually watching the news or sorry
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: i didn't mean mario polo you mean odessa odessa yeah yeah odessa is still uh under
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: uh ukrainian control
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_03: As of recording this, but we'll see.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's a mess.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's a mess.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: And now with the presidential shift, a lot of stuff is happening.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: They just, as we're recording this, the U.S.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: just authorized long-range missiles for Ukraine to use long-range missiles shooting into Russia.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_03: American missiles and the Ukrainians just did that like two days ago.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: Was that the first,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: at least from Western information flow perspective,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: the first conceding that things are being fired onto Russia and so on?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: Things have been fired onto Russia before, but not this type of missile.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because these missiles require US assistance.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_03: The Ukrainians cannot shoot these missiles on their own.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: They require US GPS technology and stuff like that.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you train them, you're being less of an active agent.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: i mean it's it's russia sees this it's such a gray gray area like nato involvement
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: why would it be less just because you're training like you're training people it's
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: all a mess isn't it just as much involvement does it matter the nationality of the
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: person pushing the trigger
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_03: Technically, I guess it does.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah,
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_03: there's a good case to be made that this has been a proxy war between the West and
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: Russia since the beginning,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: pretty much.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a never-ending proxy war with other regions as well.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: The whole...
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could argue it stretches back to the Cold War, right?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is kind of like we were talking about before.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: This is pretty much humanity's history.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: It never really ends because there's never a perfect balance between superpowers.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_03: And there probably never will be.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: even if one superpower wins and it's a one world government,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: you're going to have breakout regions that are not happy with that.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then it continues.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: What's the name of this guy that,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: he's been really floating up in YouTube recommendations since the whole of the
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Ukraine crisis came up.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: This American political scientist, he has this theory of power.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: John Mearsheimer?
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: This guy.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: A realist.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: I like his analyses.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, me too.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: They're very grounded in reality and the geography and the manufacturing and all of
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: this hard stuff that you can't deny,
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: pretty much.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's based on macro.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not based on some
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: some weird theory about a dictator being a lunatic.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: a dictator could be a lunatic,
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: but unless there are other incentives at play,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: most often that lunacy has,
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: there's a limit to that lunacy,
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: how much that can affect the whole world's situation.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's stupid to listen to.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: I would personally say it's quite stupid to listen to and swallow some news flow
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: about a leader being a lunatic and that being,
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: the main core reason why a conflict is proceeding that like a single leader is not
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: if you replace that leader if the dynamics are the same you would still get the
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: same situation in terms of the overall conflict
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: It can change with different leadership,
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_03: but it's never as simple as one person took a decision and now we're at war.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's never that simple.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_03: Even in an autocracy,
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: if the ultimate leader,
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_03: dictator,
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_03: whatever you want to call them,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: if they want to go on a suicide mission,
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: the people around them
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: around the dictator are going to react.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's never as simple as one person takes the decisions.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_03: There's a great book on this called The Dictator's Handbook,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_03: and it's all about how power works and power on every level,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's presidential or dictatorial or in your,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: like...
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: what is your relationship whenever there's two or more people yeah there's power
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: and there is this book talks about like the power dynamics and even even a dictator
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: has to think about these things because you know they can they can be overthrown
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_03: someone can murder them yeah which happens all the time i mean caesar got stabbed
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_03: that's that's that's how it goes
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no matter how powerful you are in relation to others, there's always a negotiation at place.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even if the power dynamic is this unbalanced, there's always a negotiation.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: You need to sustain your position in that negotiation.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, gradually, even if the dynamic is this.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: maybe even more if the dynamic is this, it's just a matter of time.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you negotiate, there's going to be an upsurge of like,
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: someone from the other um side feeling that imbalance and and that's gonna have a
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: backlash of course and you gotta be sure to have the military on your side as soon
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: as they flip you're done exactly that's like we discussed before the um monopoly on
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_01: violence that's what it all boils down to in the end and meersheimer's yeah also
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: all about their perspective like if you have the biggest military yeah
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: you could have a lot of other imbalances in your society,
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: but if you have the biggest force,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: you can kind of veto what other people are saying.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: And even if they have some kind of moral high ground,
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you would talk like moral theory about how people behave,
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't matter because you have the strength in the situation.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're able to put your foot down.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we get into... like, forces of...
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: in simple terms, good and evil.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, to be good in society, you cannot just be lul-lul fairy tale ponies and rainbows.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be strong enough to stand your ground when conflict arises,
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: when forces of evil,
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: when forces of disruption and destruction of things that you cherish come about.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: Come around.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be strong enough to stand your ground.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just be accepting.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just be embracing.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think we see that in any movement.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, Dalai Lama has published books about...
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: boundary less love but I mean he's a revolutionary leader as well he has a movement
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: of like people that want to get back land from an overlord in terms of the People's
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: Republic of China so
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: No matter how peaceful you're trying to be on the inside and like in many of your
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: interactions in life,
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: unless you have the ability to stand your ground,
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: you might be stamped on.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_03: We've lived in such a peaceful time in this part of the world,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: the Western Europe and the United States or North America,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: that we have kind of started to believe that this is normal.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_03: This is the exception.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_03: The amount of peace and prosperity that we have had here since World War II ended is incredible.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: Compared to human history, this does not happen.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_03: It can happen temporarily within an empire, like say the Ottoman Empire.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: within that empire yeah you you had peace for for hundreds of years and everything
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_03: was fine from the average person's unless you were on the fringes of the empire of
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_03: course yeah that's what i'm saying within the empire when when you're an insider
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_03: but to have this amount of peace and prosperity between different nations um that
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_03: we've had since world war ii that's it's incredible it's really incredible it's
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_03: it's it's just unfortunate that we take it for granted because
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_03: We believe that, you know, we have believed that everything is fine.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're done having wars.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_03: But we're not.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_03: And we've lulled ourselves into some kind of comfortable level here.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_03: And we're shocked when something happens.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas other parts of the world,
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_03: Russia,
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: where people have vivid memories of their country being torn apart,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_03: Eastern Europe in general,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yugoslavia,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_03: where I'm from.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: In this part of the world,
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_03: people are a little bit more grounded in reality because they've seen what war and
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_03: suffering means.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_03: So they haven't gotten complacent in the same way that we have in the rich part of the world.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_03: um it's i i wish everyone could afford being complacent that would be great because
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_03: that's that's where we want to be we we want to live in a world without wars but we
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: don't yeah the reality is that it can happen and will happen um unfortunately yeah
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of um what do you call it a segue to i brought this one because i i got
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_01: it home just um
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, some people are just listening to the audio, so you'll have to describe it.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_01: I showed it to the camera,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: but it's like a yellow pamphlet that's been sent out starting from Monday this week
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: by the Swedish authorities to any household in the kingdom of Sweden.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's our official name, right?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're a kingdom.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess we are.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Even though we just have a puppet ambassador, marketing manager kind of
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: king yeah um but with this pamphlet it says in in swedish it says important
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: information to citizens of sweden and then we have the emblem the three crowns
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: which is the swedish emblem then it's a big yellow pamphlet it's it's quite sizable
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: i remember like i don't know how many years ago but the last one it was it was a
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_03: lot thinner four or five years ago yeah no more than that
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: If I remember correctly, it was like two A4s folded or something.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: But this guy, he has like page numbering.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's 30 pages.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Shit's getting real, man.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_01: We need to prepare.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: The first, the front page has an illustration of...
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: a female wearing a camouflage uniform with a Panzer helmet and a machine gun.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then behind her there's a male pointing his machine gun towards something.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's an army boat.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's the Air Force flying by.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we don't need to describe it in this much detail.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's a small Swedish family there as well.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get to the pamphlet.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the title is If Crisis or War Comes.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's an introduction to the citizens of Sweden.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're living in unsure, unsafe times.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's a war.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: War is going on in our...
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: Surroundings,
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: terrorism,
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: cyber attacks and false information which might confuse misinformation is spread
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: with the attempt to hurt and affect us.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of information here.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think if I remember correctly,
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: it's basically about that any citizen of Sweden needs to be on guard that if crisis
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: would come,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: you should be able to sustain yourself for at least a week.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the gist of it.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, pretty much.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_03: So that, uh, prepping stuff at Lidl.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_03: Could have had, could have had use of that now, huh?
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that would just be a one-off campaign, so you would have to run for that.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_03: Have you started prepping?
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have to admit I'm not a prepper.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: Have you?
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_03: A little bit, yeah.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that kind of stuff.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have like water?
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, water and like food that you could eat for a week in case something happens.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have a challenge with that because now my diet is so strict.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess some of the canned food I would be able to buy.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if we're in a situation of war, I assume you would just be eating whatever you need to eat.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather eat than starve, of course.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, we could get to that topic because I am deliberately starving myself.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get back to your story.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not because of a national crisis,
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: but it's because of a local crisis in my body as we were talking about the whole
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_01: cancer shebang.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Your personal war.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So once, yeah, let's get back to, okay, enough with power dynamics.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_03: We'll leave the war aside for now.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: The power dynamics now is between,
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: in this setting,
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I would say there are three main players to set the scene.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's Victor, like the healthy cells in Victor's body.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: and his brain and that whole thing,
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_01: like trying to assess the situation and how to handle the healthy part of Victor.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Then there's the unhealthy, imbalanced part of Victor's body, which are currently the cancer cells.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: They're the worst of it, which have spread, as we said.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third player in the game,
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: If I have to cut it short,
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_01: it's the chemotherapy because out of the treatments I'm getting,
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also getting immunotherapy,
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: but we don't need to get into that.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk chemotherapy.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's the most aggressive one and it's the most coarse one, the most...
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: unpolished it has so many adverse effects right so many risks with it um so this
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: triad of players that that's like setting the scene victor the cancers cells and
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: chemotherapy and when i was faced with the situation that okay i'm gonna do chemo
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: As opposed to before, I was super worried about what the hell this was.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: But now I'm very happy to say that I got into this war mentality.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just... I stopped feeling any sense of...
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: of like unfairness or like oh the world the universe is treating me unfairly for
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_01: giving me this diagnosis because i've been i feel like i've been living a
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_01: relatively balanced healthy life no the fact of the matter is i have an advanced
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: cancer so so what can i do to deal with that situation and
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I then took as a given based on the discussion with conventional
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: healthcare was,
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: sooner or later I'm gonna get several rounds of chemotherapy.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_01: So then enter the chemotherapy player into the game.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very dangerous proposition to get chemotherapy.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: So how can I protect my body from chemotherapy?
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: whilst still dealing with this cancer thing.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: But even before that, I was thinking about how can I minimize the spread of cancer?
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing I thought about when faced with, okay, I have cancer, was I thought about diet.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was Googling and looking at scientific papers,
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_01: and there was this clear theme that came up over and over again about cancer being
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_01: skewed metabolically.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the way cancer gets its energy has a clear pattern where cancer cells differ from our normal cells.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: The way they use up energy,
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: the way they metabolize energy has a clear direction towards using pure glucose.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_01: So as opposed to a normal cell,
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: they could get any macronutrient,
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: like fat,
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_01: fatty acids,
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_01: proteins,
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: glucose molecules,
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: and they could break them down quite dynamically.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like they have all of these, if you studied like biochemistry, you get to know these molecules.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_01: standard pathways of how to break down sugar or how to break down protein and fat
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: and they're quite flexible in their metabolism so your healthy cells they can
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: survive and thrive on a mix of those macros but cancer cells have a clear skew a
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: clear tendency to prefer glucose
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is they rely very heavily,
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: most cancer cells,
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: on not the cellular perspiration,
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_01: so like using oxygen to break down the macros,
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_01: but rather they use the lactation,
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: so like the lactic fermentation.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_01: sounds maybe sounds familiar to you is like how you brew beer or make wine so you
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_01: ferment the sugar and it's much less efficient a process which means those cancer
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_01: cells when when they're geared towards that they need a lot of glucose
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can restrict the glucose intake,
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_01: if you can affect your glucose levels in your blood,
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_01: so at least you don't get these big glucose spikes throughout the day because
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_01: you're eating food that have very high levels of sugar that are easily dissolved
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_01: into the blood.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that includes very starchy food as well,
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_01: because starch is just a long chain of glucose molecules with just a small link
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: between them.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So they basically start breaking down into pure glucose already in your mouth with your saliva.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_03: Would that include potatoes?
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: potatoes um uh flour like um pasta so and anything with carbs really no if you if
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_01: you have a carby food that has a lower carb content
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the higher carbs is actually a misnomer because we say carbs, right?
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: But fiber is also a type of carb.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what you would look for is sugar and starches.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_01: If there's a high concentration of sugar and starches, that would increase your blood sugar.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if there's high concentration of fiber, which is also a type of carbohydrate.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_01: It wouldn't.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if you look at the nutritional information of any food,
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: like the standard listing of macros,
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think fiber is not part of the number you get for carbohydrates.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's separate.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it is an actual carbohydrate.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's not really digested by our digestive system the same way.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_01: So when looking at carbs,
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_01: the way we talk about carbs,
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_01: you should go for carbs that have a high fiber content,
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_01: lower sugar and starch content.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that thing was like this tendency of cancer cells,
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: it was discovered over 100 years ago,
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: around the turn of the 19th to the 20th century.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's this German researcher,
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Otto Warburg,
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_01: and he discovered this tendency in cancer cells that they need a lot of sugar.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're very sugar dependent.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're using this fermentation.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_01: He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the Nobel Prize in biology, 1930 somewhere.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Since then, I think medicine has tried to use this perspective to find drugs.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they've tried to find drugs that can affect this metabolism in cancer cells.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: But for some reason, it hasn't really latched on to...
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: how this could mean recommending different lifestyle changes to different people.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_01: um as we all know the the food industry and the way we lead our lives in terms of
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: consuming food has moved the other direction where we're just eating more and more
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_01: refined carbs right and ultra processed carbs where we're like at the point where a
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: lot of people start to eat just food in in powder form um so the more you just hack
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: down the macros you
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: into their smallest constituencies which is glucose the more you're gonna have
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: spikes in blood glucose and um i i think the pattern is quite clear that that that
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_01: could increase the chance of cancer spreading or becoming more aggressive um so
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_01: what i did in terms of diet was i i switched to a very ketogenic diet
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that means?
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_01: That means as opposed to the standard Western diet,
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_01: which at least in the US,
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think these,
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_01: we'll get to them later.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_01: What's the name of that couple?
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_01: The siblings?
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Kelly and Casey Means.
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they mentioned some statistic in a pod.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I listened that at least in the US,
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_01: the ratio of carbs to the total macros that people consume,
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_01: it's like 70%.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Damn.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to stay at the ketogenic diet level,
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: which means my North Star is to have like 80 to 85% fats,
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: 10 to 15% protein,
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_01: and 5 to 10% carbs.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_01: But now I've started to do strength training quite a lot, which means I've upped my protein.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm probably more around 70, 20, 10.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_01: But that's still quite a stark contrast to the average Western diet.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you see it in the supermarkets.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see healthy fats in the shelves.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see...
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_01: as much healthy proteins in the shelves you see a lot of carbs you see a lot of
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: pre-processed like aggressively processed carbs in most of the shelves in the
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: supermarket and especially if you look at the shelf size of that like
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of number of products,
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_01: it might be a bit less,
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_01: but if you just look at the shelf space that these shitty products take up in a supermarket,
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_01: it's quite telling.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when I switched my diet,
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_01: that was the first time I really noticed that walking into a supermarket,
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was...
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like an outer body experience because I was so convinced in my head that I
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: need to switch my diet due to health reasons.
• 1:21:09
  SPEAKER_01: And not just because I'm sick.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was convinced if I had known this beforehand, I would still be switching just as aggressively.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go into a supermarket and...
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: okay in the beginning you're you're met with fruit and veg often so that that's
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_01: that's like i mean that's actual food some of that fruit and veg is less than ideal
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_01: because it's like it's been too processed it's been too manipulated
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been driven up to maximize output in terms of weight rather than nutrition.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_01: So like tomatoes, it's a good example.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're just less nutritious than they could be.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if you buy shitty tomatoes, it's just buying expensive water, basically.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So why do that?
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a side note.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you think about the quality of your fresh produce...
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_01: like what you're actually getting in terms of nutrition very often it would make
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_01: just as much sense to buy better quality because you're not getting nutrition just
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_01: because you're getting a weight so you your shopping bag feels heavy but you don't
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_01: get the nutrition it's just water like meat is sometimes laced with water and salt
• 1:22:20
  SPEAKER_01: solution and this kind of shit so
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_01: um yeah for example now i'm buying better minced meat and one of these um so in
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_01: sweden it's good it's it's um increased in the last few years that you have more
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_01: and more e-commerce uh platforms shops where you can buy straight for home delivery
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_01: straight from the farm there's there's like a middleman but they just do the
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: logistics basically
• 1:22:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've started looking into that stuff.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So you do that.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_01: I can give you a few tips.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you see my Instagram feed, there's already some tips, but I can give you a list.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_03: It costs a little bit extra, but it's better quality.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Generally, it seems like.
• 1:23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely, definitely.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you can sometimes get cuts that you wouldn't be getting as easily as well.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we could get into that later.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: For the first time now, I've been propagandized by a friend of mine to eat more organ meats.
• 1:23:16
  SPEAKER_01: they're supposed to be very good for you it's very nutritious obviously especially
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_01: me like my gut is bombarded by chemo and stuff so I need to be a bit careful with
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_01: how much I put in of things that are super nutritious and such but
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have a friend.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_01: He's very much into that.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_01: He's like spread it throughout his family.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_01: So he's small kids like he was feeding his his newborn baby, basically a few months old.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: He was feeding feeding that baby blood.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_01: the other day.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Jesus.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, just a small taste from the finger, but he was claiming that that baby got crazy about the blood.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah?
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_01: She loved the blood.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's something to it.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some indigenous... Shout out to your friend's vampire kid.
• 1:24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'll name him.
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_01: He deserves credit.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think he'll be happy with it.
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it.
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_03: You can't say someone is feeding their baby blood on the internet and then name the person.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know who you are.
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know who you are.
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_01: People are not going to take that as a positive.
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a 50-50.
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_01: I won't be outing him.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't, don't.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: But that was just a taster.
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, he has some good input.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_01: I did order now.
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's coming tomorrow.
• 1:24:37
  SPEAKER_01: A big batch of organ meat.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Frozen, obviously, because I'm going to eat it like small portions at a time.
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I did order quite a range.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I focused on lamb and beef.
• 1:24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking about game, like wild game, but
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think because my gut is getting a lot of bombardment from chemo.
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason my gut is, yeah, I said it before, the gut lining is the one dividing the fastest.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So even if I'm protecting myself,
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_01: which we'll get to with the fasting,
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_01: there will be some impact on my grasp.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to be a bit aware of like, for example, Wild Game has a higher risk of having parasites.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I...
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'd rather focus on lamb and beef because it's more controlled how they're fed, how they're grazing.
• 1:25:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll stay away from the organs of chicken and pork because they get more like,
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: they're driven up more aggressively so their organs might not be as healthy.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's better to go with the grazing animals, I think.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_03: So beef, lamb, and also organs from beef and lamb, or cow and lamb.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I eat chicken meat, and I eat fish.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of organs, because the organs, some of them can accumulate toxins quite a lot.
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I ordered, for lamb I ordered, and for beef I ordered heart, liver, kidney,
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was about it.
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Delicious.
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I don't mind.
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_01: When I was living in London, my closest supermarket was a Turkish one.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was called...
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_01: TFC, Turkish Food Chain.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a London chain.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's a supermarket.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_01: But in their butcher section, they always had lamb heart, for example.
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I cooked it a couple of times.
• 1:26:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's very common around the world.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's just in this part of the world where we're disinfecting.
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_03: We just want everything to be clean and super...
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_01: the similar line as as like us being so conflict free and like having such a steady
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_01: supply chain so we can like we can start disinfecting everything and uh just not
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_01: being able not not needing to see that what we're eating is an actual animal like
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_01: even if you go to other places in europe still many places you you are able to see
• 1:27:16
  SPEAKER_01: the heads of the animals in the supermarket yeah
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_03: You go to the butcher to get your meat, not a supermarket where it's finely packaged and colored.
• 1:27:22
  SPEAKER_01: You go to the butcher or you go to the...
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Even in the supermarket,
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_01: like in many countries,
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_01: you do see the heads still.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_01: But in Sweden, I don't know when that disappeared.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, man.
• 1:27:33
  SPEAKER_03: But we have a whole weird thing in the West in general with gag laws that you can't
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_03: even record how these meat processing industries operate.
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Did you say gag laws?
• 1:27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_03: Add gag laws.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_01: You mean so people won't get a gag reflex?
• 1:27:53
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, suppressing, like, information about the meat industry.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so you gag.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_01: That kind of gag.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was anti-gag, like people would be gagging, getting a gag reflex if they saw the heads.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was like...
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure a lot of people would, yeah.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Nowadays, yeah, they're just neutered.
• 1:28:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're neutered in terms of seeing wildlife.
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's one of the... We just see it in the sewer on TV.
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's one of the beautiful things and also downsides of being so rich and peaceful as we've been.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_03: We can Disneyfy everything.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_03: We can make everything so nice and neat and suit us perfectly.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Disneyfy is the right word for our relation to animals.
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because what we do is we Disneyfy it in terms of any wild animals we're exposed to
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_01: at a young age in a Disney movie.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: The first time most people in our part of the world sees wild animals is in a Disney movie.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have the other part of it.
• 1:28:59
  SPEAKER_01: You have pets, which are Disneyfied living species.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Breeding dogs is all about this vacation.
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the smaller and cuter a dog could be the better for There's a lot of
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_01: people in our part of the world.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean on the daily you see people carrying their dogs when they're in a shop like what is that?
• 1:29:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a woman.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's just weird.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's definitely not a wolf.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I got a Netflix purse dogs.
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_01: I got a Netflix ad
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I don't remember the, maybe it was British.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_01: The name of the series was Dog Man.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I just watched the trailer for like 15 seconds.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of dogs and wolves, I think he was like a mafia guy, like a dealer or whatever.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe it was a hitman.
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the way he made hits was using a lot of stray dogs.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So he trained the dogs.
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Damn.
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_01: To be hitmen.
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Damn.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_01: So there was this,
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_01: in the intro,
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: like 15 second intro,
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_01: there was this guy who'd done something wrong,
• 1:30:05
  SPEAKER_01: supposedly.
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_01: He was walking around the streets.
• 1:30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the dogman, he had instructed...
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_01: one of his dogs to to follow this guy right to just plot and plan for him being his
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_01: prey damn so you saw like the dog following him in the streets and then there was
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_01: another dog as well so there was like um there was a flock thing going on as well
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_01: which was so much in line with wolves
• 1:30:32
  SPEAKER_03: this is this is straight out of a guy richie movie yeah but i think there are other
• 1:30:35
  SPEAKER_01: examples like i think in goa in kerala in india right on the beach there i i don't
• 1:30:41
  SPEAKER_01: know how it is now but a few years ago i i heard they have like a pack of wild dogs
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_01: like not wild dogs like the african wild dog but like stray dogs right that that
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_01: have turned into a flock of stray dogs yeah and they're behaving like wolves yeah
• 1:30:57
  SPEAKER_01: so they're like hunting people
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_03: I saw those in the Philippines when I was there.
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_03: This was quite a while ago.
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_03: But you would see these packs of stray dogs just marching the streets during night.
• 1:31:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I never got into any trouble with them,
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_03: but I can imagine that it would suck if you get on their bad side.
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're getting back to their roots.
• 1:31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess.
• 1:31:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like an uprising.
• 1:31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's the uprising of the handbag dogs.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine if you had the handbag-sized dogs being stray dogs.
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_01: It would be like an army of rats.
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_03: They would get eaten by any bird right away.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Then you get into this interesting,
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_01: which I think has been discussed in several podcasts,
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_01: but it's most probably been discussed in Joe Rogan.
• 1:31:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you have to face a group of animals, which would be your enemy of choice?
• 1:31:49
  SPEAKER_01: The alternatives are like...
• 1:31:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you have to choose to... I think there's even an extension of it.
• 1:31:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you have to fight two of these and you can pick two of these.
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_03: To be on your side?
• 1:32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to be on your side.
• 1:32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's like a certain number of each animal.
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be like one grizzly bear, three gorillas, a thousand rats...
• 1:32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_01: 15 eagles.
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:32:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting debate.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_01: So how many handbag dogs would you need?
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: You would need a lot of them, yeah.
• 1:32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think the only thing they're good for,
• 1:32:33
  SPEAKER_01: apart from looking cute,
• 1:32:34
  SPEAKER_01: if they're to protect you,
• 1:32:36
  SPEAKER_01: it would be like they're barking louder.
• 1:32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're noisy, yeah.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Something about smaller dogs, they bark more.
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they can be annoying.
• 1:32:45
  SPEAKER_03: So meat, you eat a lot of meat now and veggies.
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Can I use the restroom?
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's take a quick break.
• 1:32:52
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we're back.
• 1:32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get to the topic of fasting since we teased it a couple of times.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_03: You can't pull it that way.
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_03: It'll break off, you're too strong.
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, before we go to fasting, let's talk a little bit about fats.
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's also an interesting thing.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Fats.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Fats.
• 1:33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Still nowadays, people demonize fat.
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but less and less, it feels like.
• 1:33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Less and less, but still people our age, I hear, oh, fat is supposed to be bad.
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to a couple of Japanese friends over a video call,
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_01: and I was explaining my diet,
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_01: and they were so shocked.
• 1:33:30
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, my doctor says I can't eat fat.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And same with the healthcare system in Sweden.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 1:33:37
  SPEAKER_01: What I was given when I was given this diagnosis,
• 1:33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I met a dietician who's part of the standard Swedish healthcare system.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was given two pamphlets.
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had them with me.
• 1:33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I trashed them.
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm going to find two new copies because they were bizarre.
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_01: When you're given a cancer diagnosis in Sweden and you're going to be exposed to aggressive treatment,
• 1:34:01
  SPEAKER_01: one of the things they are most afraid of is you losing weight.
• 1:34:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:34:07
  SPEAKER_01: it has some legitimate concern in some cases because there is something called cachexia,
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_01: which is a state a person could...
• 1:34:20
  SPEAKER_01: could be experiencing,
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_01: if they're very weak,
• 1:34:22
  SPEAKER_01: if their overall body composure is very weak and they're not eating enough during treatment,
• 1:34:31
  SPEAKER_01: and the combination of aggressive treatment and cancer could kind of...
• 1:34:37
  SPEAKER_01: over time lead into a downward spiral where your body at some certain point would
• 1:34:42
  SPEAKER_01: start giving up and it would not be able to,
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_01: it would stop processing nutrients basically and it would just start some
• 1:34:49
  SPEAKER_01: self-starvation mode.
• 1:34:52
  SPEAKER_01: But a person my age, my general health would never end up in that situation.
• 1:34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Still, no matter who you are when you get the diagnosis, you're going to get this general advice.
• 1:35:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's super important not to lose weight.
• 1:35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:35:05
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what you do not to lose weight.
• 1:35:08
  SPEAKER_01: You eat anything you feel like.
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And here is a list of recommendations what you can eat.
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_01: So in the two pamphlets, I got like 100 options.
• 1:35:18
  SPEAKER_01: I counted and I ticked off all of those options.
• 1:35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I counted like more than 90% of the options were just shit.
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of the perspective I was given before with sugar and glucose.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:35:32
  SPEAKER_01: so it was literally like vanilla ice cream,
• 1:35:34
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:35:35
  SPEAKER_01: caramel sauce,
• 1:35:37
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:35:37
  SPEAKER_01: strawberry sauce,
• 1:35:39
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:35:39
  SPEAKER_01: this kind of,
• 1:35:41
  SPEAKER_01: which is like a very sweet and dry spotting snack with the jam to it.
• 1:35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, super white bread, um, super processed this and that.
• 1:35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So this was the recommendation you're getting in terms of diet.
• 1:35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:35:58
  SPEAKER_03: All of that stuff would feed the cancer as you were talking about.
• 1:36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very clear.
• 1:36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
• 1:36:04
  SPEAKER_01: it's hard to controlledly measure that in a human study because it's hard to follow
• 1:36:11
  SPEAKER_01: up diet over a long period of time with human studies.
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_01: You would have to pay for that diet.
• 1:36:16
  SPEAKER_01: You would have to control that these people only eat that because if you let them
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_01: go home,
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_01: they got a snack.
• 1:36:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very hard to control for.
• 1:36:24
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of animal studies, the pattern is very clear.
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_03: how did they explain this to you like how come i mean they obviously have to know
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_01: about the glucose thing as well no many of them don't really i think it's a it's a
• 1:36:38
  SPEAKER_01: wider problem it's it's like you could talk about the incentives why this is not
• 1:36:44
  SPEAKER_01: becoming prominent in the healthcare system like and there at least how it works in
• 1:36:48
  SPEAKER_01: sweden is nothing is becoming prominent in terms of treatment options and
• 1:36:53
  SPEAKER_01: recommendations in in the healthcare system unless it's included in
• 1:36:57
  SPEAKER_01: the standard healthcare plan for a certain diagnosis.
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_01: So for every given diagnosis, there is a booklet.
• 1:37:06
  SPEAKER_01: There is a Bible in Sweden.
• 1:37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And in that Bible,
• 1:37:11
  SPEAKER_01: that Bible should hold everything basically that you're expected to follow as
• 1:37:16
  SPEAKER_01: guidelines if you have a patient,
• 1:37:19
  SPEAKER_01: if you're a doctor,
• 1:37:20
  SPEAKER_01: specialist or generalist,
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_01: and you have a patient with that diagnosis.
• 1:37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And as opposed to in some countries, I think like in the US, there are more degrees of freedom.
• 1:37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So a certain clinic could have a different approach.
• 1:37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:37:34
  SPEAKER_01: But in Sweden, it's very standardized.
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 1:37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, in my booklet for my diagnosis, there's nothing about diet.
• 1:37:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's non-existent.
• 1:37:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not even a perspective they take in, basically.
• 1:37:48
  SPEAKER_03: I have the same experience.
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Which is crazy.
• 1:37:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy when you have such a clear pattern of many of these lethal and serious diseases.
• 1:38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Having an epidemiology where it's clear that lifestyle factors do play in heavily
• 1:38:06
  SPEAKER_01: into what we see as a clear trend in Western society that many of these are on the rise.
• 1:38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just because we're getting older.
• 1:38:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's also because they're rising rapidly.
• 1:38:19
  SPEAKER_01: for people at younger ages.
• 1:38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so clear,
• 1:38:22
  SPEAKER_01: like the siblings we were talking about before,
• 1:38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly and Casey Means,
• 1:38:29
  SPEAKER_01: they've done a wider survey of this in the US specifically,
• 1:38:33
  SPEAKER_01: but the US pattern for some of these diseases might be more clear and drastic,
• 1:38:37
  SPEAKER_01: but the same pattern is seen all throughout Western world,
• 1:38:42
  SPEAKER_01: where you have these chronic diseases rising in numbers and getting lower and lower
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_01: in age.
• 1:38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Another typical example is like diabetes in the US where pre-diabetes or type 2
• 1:38:59
  SPEAKER_01: diabetes is existing in 50% of the US population.
• 1:39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, crazy.
• 1:39:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was about to look up the number in Sweden,
• 1:39:08
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't know,
• 1:39:09
  SPEAKER_01: but it's probably not nearly as high,
• 1:39:11
  SPEAKER_01: but it's most probably showing the same trend because we've been following the same
• 1:39:18
  SPEAKER_01: direction in terms of changing our eating habits and our living habits as the US in
• 1:39:23
  SPEAKER_01: general terms.
• 1:39:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have the whole thing about the connection between healthcare and
• 1:39:31
  SPEAKER_01: lobbying from the food industry,
• 1:39:33
  SPEAKER_01: but also lobbying from pharma.
• 1:39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Where obviously pharma wants you to be medicated because they're all about medication, medicating people.
• 1:39:44
  SPEAKER_01: They're not about like pharma.
• 1:39:49
  SPEAKER_01: As any business, you want recurring revenue.
• 1:39:51
  SPEAKER_01: You want to have returning customers.
• 1:39:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're producing pharmaceuticals,
• 1:39:58
  SPEAKER_01: you would want to have returning customers for those pharmaceuticals.
• 1:40:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's much more profitable than giving lifestyle advice and then having someone
• 1:40:06
  SPEAKER_01: change their lifestyle and suddenly having a significantly lower risk of carrying a disease.
• 1:40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Or even providing a pharmaceutical,
• 1:40:16
  SPEAKER_03: but that you take once and the problem is solved,
• 1:40:21
  SPEAKER_03: which of course is not possible in a lot of cases.
• 1:40:24
  SPEAKER_03: But even if it was, the incentive structure would be, no, no, let's go the other way.
• 1:40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:40:29
  SPEAKER_01: But then I think,
• 1:40:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:40:31
  SPEAKER_01: me having,
• 1:40:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 1:40:32
  SPEAKER_01: enough background in terms of knowledge of biology and biochemistry,
• 1:40:36
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that's more going down the...
• 1:40:40
  SPEAKER_01: paranoid route like i not necessarily not necessarily for all health conditions you
• 1:40:46
  SPEAKER_03: mentioned pre-diabetes for instance yeah you can't treat pre-diabetes to not
• 1:40:51
  SPEAKER_03: develop actual diabetes and the insurance companies in the us do not reimburse that
• 1:40:58
  SPEAKER_03: type of medic medication whereas once you do have diabetes
• 1:41:04
  SPEAKER_03: You're on treatment for the rest of your lives, and the insurance companies reimburse that.
• 1:41:08
  SPEAKER_03: So it doesn't necessarily have to be one pill to fix it,
• 1:41:12
  SPEAKER_03: but the kind of medications that are shorter range,
• 1:41:18
  SPEAKER_03: let's say,
• 1:41:19
  SPEAKER_03: the incentive structure is against them,
• 1:41:21
  SPEAKER_03: which...
• 1:41:22
  SPEAKER_03: Which is very unfortunate,
• 1:41:23
  SPEAKER_03: which doesn't have to mean that it's always the case and that these guys want you
• 1:41:28
  SPEAKER_03: to suffer.
• 1:41:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the case at all.
• 1:41:30
  SPEAKER_03: But the incentive structure will push the decision makers in that direction every now and then.
• 1:41:35
  SPEAKER_01: sure but i would want to take it even a step further and say okay it's not like
• 1:41:40
  SPEAKER_01: pre-diabetes medication is not included in the insurance coverage but if you could
• 1:41:48
  SPEAKER_01: suggest a lifestyle adjustment that's even less that's even less of an intervention
• 1:41:53
  SPEAKER_01: and that's even less likely to be included in the insurance coverage
• 1:41:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a problem of incentives.
• 1:42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:42:03
  SPEAKER_01: But then it's also a problem of human psychology.
• 1:42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think US has taken it to its extreme where the psychology of humans to want
• 1:42:13
  SPEAKER_01: to have a quick and easy solution for problems like health problems has gone to the
• 1:42:18
  SPEAKER_01: extreme that in the mind of an average American citizen,
• 1:42:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm free balling here,
• 1:42:23
  SPEAKER_01: but I would guess in many cases when they're facing a health issue,
• 1:42:28
  SPEAKER_01: the first thing that comes to mind in their brain is,
• 1:42:31
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 1:42:32
  SPEAKER_01: what drug should I take?
• 1:42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Which specialist should I see?
• 1:42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:42:37
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:42:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's like decades of propaganda that has formed this kind of mentality.
• 1:42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but propaganda thrives on our basal instincts.
• 1:42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Propaganda doesn't work if it goes 100% against our nature.
• 1:42:51
  SPEAKER_03: So like... Every now and then it seems to though.
• 1:42:55
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's still part of our nature.
• 1:42:57
  SPEAKER_03: I guess.
• 1:42:58
  SPEAKER_01: We create a sick society because we're sick species.
• 1:43:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, fair enough.
• 1:43:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're very adaptable, which is both our strength and our weakness.
• 1:43:05
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe not against our nature, but against our natural instincts.
• 1:43:09
  SPEAKER_03: It seems like a lot of propaganda.
• 1:43:12
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's just like crazy.
• 1:43:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, then you come into what's natural.
• 1:43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy, but then, of course, there is a pattern.
• 1:43:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing things in a way which we weren't biologically evolved to do in many, many senses.
• 1:43:32
  SPEAKER_01: You could talk about nature and the environment, the environment we're living in.
• 1:43:38
  SPEAKER_01: you could it's a play of words but you could say it's unnatural for us because if
• 1:43:44
  SPEAKER_01: you define natural as what we're evolutionarily developed to be surrounded by
• 1:43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Our organism hasn't been developed to live in the type of environment we're living in right now.
• 1:43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Our organism was developing across so many generations.
• 1:44:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
• 1:44:05
  SPEAKER_01: anything with evolution,
• 1:44:06
  SPEAKER_01: you could also always stretch back the lineage of species that came before there
• 1:44:11
  SPEAKER_01: was a human being.
• 1:44:12
  SPEAKER_01: So literally all the way down to single cellular organisms.
• 1:44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And throughout that whole chain of events, our biology has...
• 1:44:22
  SPEAKER_01: until very recently not come across an environment that is like the one we're
• 1:44:26
  SPEAKER_01: living in now this environment is alien to to our biological mechanisms in in a big
• 1:44:32
  SPEAKER_01: big sense and food food is one such thing but just like our surroundings if you're
• 1:44:37
  SPEAKER_01: living in a city how often do you gaze at the horizon how often do you
• 1:44:43
  SPEAKER_01: trace your path right to to to get to a distant destination from which you have to
• 1:44:49
  SPEAKER_01: get to another distant destination no you're just like back and forth a few hundred
• 1:44:53
  SPEAKER_01: meters maybe a kilometer uh commuting you're not not even using your feet most of
• 1:44:58
  SPEAKER_01: the time you're like putting yourself in a shuttle that's going to take you from
• 1:45:02
  SPEAKER_01: point a to b so all of these basal elements these core components of being a human
• 1:45:09
  SPEAKER_01: being are being toward it they're they're like
• 1:45:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're losing grip on many of these instincts,
• 1:45:16
  SPEAKER_01: and I think it's part of the reason why our health is suffering as well.
• 1:45:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a package.
• 1:45:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is absolutely part of it.
• 1:45:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at a nature documentary, how come the butterfly is attracted to that flower?
• 1:45:31
  SPEAKER_01: How come that flower is perfectly placed and formed to be in such a nice...
• 1:45:42
  SPEAKER_01: um nice unison with with the that's not snout or whatever they call it from the
• 1:45:49
  SPEAKER_01: butterfly so it just about reaches and then it just about touches and then just
• 1:45:55
  SPEAKER_01: about spreads there's so much in nature which has this synergy on so many levels
• 1:46:00
  SPEAKER_01: and we're removing a lot of that synergy by the way we shape our environment sure
• 1:46:05
  SPEAKER_01: and it must have some effect on our organism and that's what we're seeing um and
• 1:46:11
  SPEAKER_01: then we're also introducing a lot of stressors that didn't used to exist yeah um no
• 1:46:17
  SPEAKER_03: we're we're a strange species man yeah very strange but let's get back to the uh
• 1:46:22
  SPEAKER_03: diet and uh we were on yeah yeah yeah fat so
• 1:46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:46:29
  SPEAKER_01: I went on this whole tangent about,
• 1:46:30
  SPEAKER_01: what was it,
• 1:46:31
  SPEAKER_01: fat and...
• 1:46:33
  SPEAKER_03: The sugary food that they recommend at the treatment.
• 1:46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:46:38
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just conclude that the healthcare system in Sweden,
• 1:46:41
  SPEAKER_01: at least they don't know two cents about diet or the system is not geared to
• 1:46:47
  SPEAKER_01: recommend anything diet-wise.
• 1:46:49
  SPEAKER_03: Doctors study for five and a half years here.
• 1:46:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's like the standard program.
• 1:46:52
  SPEAKER_03: And they study diet for 12 and a half hours.
• 1:46:56
  SPEAKER_03: Of those five and a half years.
• 1:46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Something similar in the US, right?
• 1:46:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 1:47:00
  SPEAKER_01: The KCE siblings said something similar.
• 1:47:02
  SPEAKER_03: You should not ask a doctor about diet.
• 1:47:04
  SPEAKER_01: But even dietitians.
• 1:47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was talking to a professional dietitian.
• 1:47:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was more of a specialist than he was.
• 1:47:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, most definitely.
• 1:47:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what he's studying.
• 1:47:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure that's bad luck.
• 1:47:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's got to be good dietitians.
• 1:47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there are good ones.
• 1:47:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I asked Karolinska where I'm at.
• 1:47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any specialist in Karolinska who has any focus on caloric restriction, which we'll get to?
• 1:47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like fasting?
• 1:47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no one.
• 1:47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Not a single soul.
• 1:47:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's backwaters.
• 1:47:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 1:47:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the whole thing,
• 1:47:38
  SPEAKER_01: like people become specialists and then,
• 1:47:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:47:42
  SPEAKER_01: to be blunt,
• 1:47:44
  SPEAKER_01: medicine is not studied in the way basic science is studied.
• 1:47:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you're studying basic science,
• 1:47:51
  SPEAKER_01: you're starting from core principles and then you're building out from that,
• 1:47:56
  SPEAKER_01: often with some math behind it.
• 1:47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas medicine, in my view, it seems to be studied...
• 1:48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Both that you over-specialize, so you don't look at the whole, you look at the parts.
• 1:48:07
  SPEAKER_01: But then again,
• 1:48:09
  SPEAKER_01: even when looking at a specific part,
• 1:48:11
  SPEAKER_01: you're kind of building a decision tree,
• 1:48:12
  SPEAKER_01: an algorithm in your head.
• 1:48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're going to become a treating physician.
• 1:48:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to be faced with all of these patients and you have to make these judgment calls.
• 1:48:26
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's a time crunch.
• 1:48:29
  SPEAKER_01: So the way to optimize for that in the system currently is you create these decision trees.
• 1:48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a physician risks becoming an executor of decision trees rather than being
• 1:48:42
  SPEAKER_01: analytical and flexible and looking at the newest and latest science on this field
• 1:48:49
  SPEAKER_01: because so much is happening.
• 1:48:50
  SPEAKER_01: But there's such a delay often in...
• 1:48:54
  SPEAKER_01: any given practitioner in the healthcare system adapting to that.
• 1:49:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also related to the national healthcare plans and stuff.
• 1:49:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it already starts at the individual practitioner level where I think already in
• 1:49:10
  SPEAKER_01: the school bench,
• 1:49:11
  SPEAKER_01: they're kind of trained to become executors of decision trees and algorithms rather
• 1:49:18
  SPEAKER_01: than looking at things holistically.
• 1:49:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very difficult thing to keep up with medical research and even more
• 1:49:27
  SPEAKER_03: difficult thing to adjust the education to the latest medical research because it
• 1:49:34
  SPEAKER_03: takes a while to create a program for students.
• 1:49:42
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a while.
• 1:49:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's a process and it's never...
• 1:49:46
  SPEAKER_03: Same with any kind of education.
• 1:49:48
  SPEAKER_03: If you're going to,
• 1:49:49
  SPEAKER_03: you remember when your teachers were teaching about computers and you're like,
• 1:49:53
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus,
• 1:49:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm way ahead of you guys.
• 1:49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, your computers are old.
• 1:49:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:49:58
  SPEAKER_03: because they are,
• 1:50:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:50:01
  SPEAKER_03: until you get something onto the school decision tree,
• 1:50:06
  SPEAKER_03: whatever,
• 1:50:06
  SPEAKER_03: and then it gets through and then you start testing it and then implementing it.
• 1:50:11
  SPEAKER_03: By that time, the kid's already on TikTok.
• 1:50:14
  SPEAKER_01: I also think it's one of the limitations of standardization.
• 1:50:17
  SPEAKER_01: And standardization often comes about to try and increase the lowest acceptable
• 1:50:26
  SPEAKER_01: level of something in terms of quality.
• 1:50:29
  SPEAKER_01: But what you risk getting at is you're cutting everything by the ankles.
• 1:50:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not getting the bright, innovative stuff either.
• 1:50:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 1:50:41
  SPEAKER_03: but it's a trade-off because if you go too far in the other direction,
• 1:50:46
  SPEAKER_03: you will get false information studies that have not been verified enough and stuff
• 1:50:52
  SPEAKER_03: like that if you're too quick to jump on innovation.
• 1:50:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a very difficult balance to figure out how education should work.
• 1:50:59
  SPEAKER_01: But then you could argue like if someone is suffering from quite a lethal diagnosis,
• 1:51:07
  SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't you increase the degree of freedom for that individual to affect his situation,
• 1:51:12
  SPEAKER_01: his or her situation?
• 1:51:14
  SPEAKER_01: And in Sweden, that's not the case.
• 1:51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Swedish healthcare is very defensive.
• 1:51:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was very quickly...
• 1:51:21
  SPEAKER_01: Identifying that,
• 1:51:23
  SPEAKER_01: and I was also talking to a friend of mine who's working on clinical trials globally,
• 1:51:28
  SPEAKER_01: that the Swedish healthcare system is not geared towards innovative treatments.
• 1:51:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's always lagging behind.
• 1:51:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's very seldom that Swedish healthcare is joining clinical trials at an early stage and such.
• 1:51:43
  SPEAKER_01: where it's not because it's not possible it's just because the system is geared to
• 1:51:48
  SPEAKER_01: be very defensive and very standardized so and I mean we could talk about education
• 1:51:54
  SPEAKER_01: there as well like I'm yeah I have big issues with standardized education I think
• 1:52:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's shit I think it's wasting so much human potential and I think most of what's
• 1:52:05
  SPEAKER_01: going on in standardized regimented education is just about
• 1:52:13
  SPEAKER_01: keeping kids in a place so they don't bother the parents because they need to go
• 1:52:18
  SPEAKER_01: and work and and pay taxes yeah but in terms of productivity in terms of flourish
• 1:52:25
  SPEAKER_01: of enabling humans to flourish it's it's very much counterproductive yeah
• 1:52:32
  SPEAKER_03: No, for sure.
• 1:52:34
  SPEAKER_03: But it's tricky either way.
• 1:52:36
  SPEAKER_03: But let's get back to fats.
• 1:52:38
  SPEAKER_01: So before we talk about fasting, let's talk a bit more about fats.
• 1:52:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I said ketogenic, so a high degree of fats.
• 1:52:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because fat metabolism is the furthest away from the pure glucose metabolism.
• 1:52:52
  SPEAKER_01: Cancer cell could more easily utilize proteins to break them down than it could fats.
• 1:52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:53:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the bulk of it.
• 1:53:04
  SPEAKER_01: And also like blood glucose wouldn't be going up as quickly with fats.
• 1:53:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you can measure that in the blood as well.
• 1:53:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can measure the blood glucose, which any person with diabetes is doing.
• 1:53:18
  SPEAKER_01: They used to be doing it with prick tests, but now there are also these...
• 1:53:23
  SPEAKER_01: continuous glucose monitors right right the little machine i'm using mine for the
• 1:53:29
  SPEAKER_01: first time here so if you have it looking like this for those without camera it's
• 1:53:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's on my upper arm
• 1:53:39
  SPEAKER_01: you just prick your um your upper arm like your triceps um area with a needle and
• 1:53:45
  SPEAKER_01: it it's fit it's sticks there and then the sensor is active for 14 days and it's
• 1:53:52
  SPEAKER_01: gonna give you readouts the one i bought it's imported from china i think it's
• 1:53:57
  SPEAKER_01: probably the best brand uh it's um can i name the brand
• 1:54:04
  SPEAKER_03: Why not?
• 1:54:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's called SciBionics.
• 1:54:06
  SPEAKER_01: So S-I-Bionics.
• 1:54:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not SVT.
• 1:54:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm happy with it.
• 1:54:12
  SPEAKER_01: I just started using it and it's giving me interesting information.
• 1:54:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that one is feeding me every five minutes with a reading.
• 1:54:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it has a real time,
• 1:54:22
  SPEAKER_01: whereas I think the American version,
• 1:54:23
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot the name of the brand,
• 1:54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Libra or something,
• 1:54:27
  SPEAKER_01: you need to actively ask it.
• 1:54:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not going to give you a five minute, every five minutes reading.
• 1:54:36
  SPEAKER_01: and it gives you some insights on the blood glucose but similarly you can also
• 1:54:40
  SPEAKER_01: measure the fat in your blood and like the smallest metabolite of fat is the
• 1:54:47
  SPEAKER_01: ketones so it's like a small molecule with a few carbons oxygen something like that
• 1:54:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you can measure the ketone level.
• 1:54:57
  SPEAKER_01: So similarly, you can get a monitor that you put on your arm for ketones, which I'm going to do next.
• 1:55:02
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 1:55:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there you would also see,
• 1:55:04
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 1:55:04
  SPEAKER_01: if you have ketones in your blood,
• 1:55:05
  SPEAKER_01: that means your cells are able to digest fat instead of glucose.
• 1:55:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the more ketones you have in general,
• 1:55:15
  SPEAKER_01: the less you would have the glucose spikes,
• 1:55:19
  SPEAKER_01: which is a good thing in general.
• 1:55:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:55:24
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of the type of fat, it's also interesting.
• 1:55:30
  SPEAKER_01: You have, I mean, there's this thing about you shouldn't eat too much certain types of fats.
• 1:55:36
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 1:55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's like the trans fats, which are, they accumulate more in your body.
• 1:55:47
  SPEAKER_01: They could accumulate in fat and they could over time become cancerous or inflammatory.
• 1:55:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to think about what type of fat you put in.
• 1:55:57
  SPEAKER_01: You want to have less processed fat in general, whether animal or plant-based fat.
• 1:56:03
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want it to be overly processed because that's often when it's like heated
• 1:56:07
  SPEAKER_01: and pressurized,
• 1:56:08
  SPEAKER_01: you get these
• 1:56:10
  SPEAKER_01: less natural fatty acids which which the body can handle less well um and then
• 1:56:15
  SPEAKER_01: there's also the aspect of omega fats which you've heard about like you have the
• 1:56:21
  SPEAKER_01: supplements omega-3 right so most plant or animal fats they have omega acid omega
• 1:56:28
  SPEAKER_01: fats and uh um
• 1:56:33
  SPEAKER_01: the more they're processed the more they tend to have omega-3 no omega-6 so there's
• 1:56:39
  SPEAKER_01: always a ratio between omega-6 and omega-3 and it's also about for example with
• 1:56:45
  SPEAKER_01: animal fats how those animals were fed so if they're fed with more processed grains
• 1:56:51
  SPEAKER_01: they the meat would turn out having a higher omega-6 okay
• 1:56:56
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, beef that is grass-fed, it's gonna have higher omega-3 content.
• 1:57:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you would preferably eat that beef, because you wanna have an even balance.
• 1:57:07
  SPEAKER_01: You wanna have like a,
• 1:57:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember the ideal ratio,
• 1:57:10
  SPEAKER_01: but it's somewhere between one to one and one to three,
• 1:57:14
  SPEAKER_01: between omega-3 and omega-6.
• 1:57:17
  SPEAKER_01: But in some oils,
• 1:57:19
  SPEAKER_01: especially seed oils,
• 1:57:21
  SPEAKER_01: like from very heavily processed seed oils,
• 1:57:23
  SPEAKER_01: omega-6 would just be up through the roof.
• 1:57:26
  SPEAKER_01: It would be like 15 to 1.
• 1:57:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you need to find a good balance between the omega-acids because if there's too
• 1:57:37
  SPEAKER_01: much omega-6,
• 1:57:37
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to cause a lot of inflammation in your body.
• 1:57:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another aspect.
• 1:57:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a lot of inflammation inducing stuff in your body,
• 1:57:45
  SPEAKER_01: you're increasing the risk of cancer cells thriving.
• 1:57:49
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 1:57:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because cancer cells live on inflammation and creating acidic environments and this kind of thing.
• 1:57:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:57:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that's enough about fats, I think.
• 1:58:00
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get to fasting.
• 1:58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:58:02
  SPEAKER_01: so the first thing I identified was the diet,
• 1:58:06
  SPEAKER_01: and I switched my diet straight away,
• 1:58:08
  SPEAKER_01: like as soon as I suspected I had cancer.
• 1:58:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was faced with the fact that I was getting chemo.
• 1:58:16
  SPEAKER_01: So chemo is going to hurt my body,
• 1:58:18
  SPEAKER_01: my healthy cells,
• 1:58:20
  SPEAKER_01: especially the ones that are dividing fast,
• 1:58:24
  SPEAKER_01: which a central one is my gut.
• 1:58:27
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:58:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was Googling and I was looking at articles and I was also reasoning about,
• 1:58:32
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 1:58:32
  SPEAKER_01: how can I protect my gut?
• 1:58:35
  SPEAKER_01: If chemo is acting on fast dividing cells,
• 1:58:39
  SPEAKER_01: can I in some way make those gut cells divide more slowly?
• 1:58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:58:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I came on to the topic of fasting.
• 1:58:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very clear that what's happening when you're fasting,
• 1:58:52
  SPEAKER_01: based on experiments,
• 1:58:54
  SPEAKER_01: is your body goes into this protective state and this cleanup state.
• 1:58:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like defragmenting your hard drive.
• 1:59:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like...
• 1:59:04
  SPEAKER_01: And just taking time out to recover.
• 1:59:09
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're fasting, your stomach acid goes down.
• 1:59:14
  SPEAKER_01: Your immune cells, because 90% of your immune cells are in your gut.
• 1:59:20
  SPEAKER_01: So your immune cells, but also your gut lining, is going into self-repair mode and like cleaning mode.
• 1:59:28
  SPEAKER_01: right so a lot of the cells that are um getting old and damaged they will be
• 1:59:37
  SPEAKER_01: renewed they will be recycled but also the the cells that are usually very active
• 1:59:43
  SPEAKER_01: dividing and digesting food they will get into a more dormant state where they're
• 1:59:49
  SPEAKER_01: kind of protecting themselves right
• 1:59:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get the chemo in.
• 1:59:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're able to induce this protective state before you get the chemo in,
• 1:59:59
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to have less of a deleterious,
• 2:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: less of a damaging effect from the chemotherapy,
• 2:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: from the cellular poison,
• 2:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: because those cells are no longer as available to get poisoned.
• 2:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're not dividing as fast.
• 2:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: um and it has the benefits of protecting your gut but also protecting your immune
• 2:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: defense and your immune cells um and i was reading up about this and then i was
• 2:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: just about to start my first treatment um but i never fasted like i've never
• 2:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: deliberately said to myself i'm not going to eat for a full day right
• 2:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now I was thinking about doing this for multiple days because my treatment,
• 2:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: my chemo and the immune therapy I'm getting,
• 2:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of spread over two and a half days.
• 2:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I would obviously need to protect myself throughout those two and a half days.
• 2:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 2:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then again, I need to get down to that state before starting treatment.
• 2:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I need some kind of window before.
• 2:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then even if you stop getting infused with the cellular poison here, after those two and a half days,
• 2:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: That chemical, that substance will still be in your blood for some time.
• 2:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to have a half time where with every half time you get half the
• 2:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: concentration of that in your blood until there's less and less,
• 2:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: almost nothing left.
• 2:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I require a window after that as well.
• 2:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I was very tentative to get on the bandwagon and start fasting because I didn't
• 2:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: know what would happen to my body.
• 2:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: So what I did was first, I didn't go all in.
• 2:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, I found this, there's this American researcher who's originally from Italy.
• 2:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: His name is Walter Longo.
• 2:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's one of the most prominent researchers in fasting science.
• 2:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: He's at some university on the West Coast.
• 2:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: uh and he's he's been studying longevity uh connected to fasting but also cancer
• 2:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: treatment and he started with animal studies and like studies in small cell
• 2:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: cultures and with animal studies he saw such a clear pattern that animals that were
• 2:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: fasting that were not given continuous food right rationing they
• 2:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: Not only when they were implanted with human cancer cells did that cancer tumor
• 2:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: grow slower,
• 2:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: but also when they were getting cancer,
• 2:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: but they were also getting chemotherapy.
• 2:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: The efficiency of that chemotherapy was higher and they didn't get as much damage from the chemo itself.
• 2:02:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think what happened then was he was to translate it to humans,
• 2:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: but it's harder to lobby for finding a big enough group of human patients and
• 2:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: telling them,
• 2:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 2:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: could you try and not eat at all for a number of days?
• 2:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: because as I said before like in many healthcare systems you're given the opposite
• 2:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: advice right you're like you're never supposed to lose weight unless you really
• 2:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: have to you have to eat a lot
• 2:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 2:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: so what he did instead was he introduced something he called the fast mimicking diet,
• 2:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: which is like a light version of fasting.
• 2:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: So water fasting, it means you're only drinking water.
• 2:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're not getting any calories, right?
• 2:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you could be like maybe some herbal tea, but not nothing that has calories.
• 2:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: and what he did instead was he went on a very low calorie diet for a number of days
• 2:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: around the treatment so his protocol is somewhere between 400 and 800 calories for
• 2:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: each day and then he's he sold it as a package deal kind of so there's a
• 2:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: standardized he even sells like bundles of nutrients that you could just buy then
• 2:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: you go with the day one pack and then the day two three four
• 2:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: So my first cycle, my first treatment, I went with his approach.
• 2:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I went down to like 500 to 1,000 calories.
• 2:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I noticed a lot of issues with my gut.
• 2:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like my gut was dying on me, like these cells were crying out.
• 2:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: I had a lot of issues with like,
• 2:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 2:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: the issues you can imagine you get with the gut,
• 2:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: like diarrhea and constipation and just disgusting stuff.
• 2:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: And also puking a lot during the first treatment.
• 2:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: So then I decided what do I have to lose?
• 2:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just try to go full on fasting.
• 2:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next cycle I did a four and a half day water fasting.
• 2:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 2:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: and it felt much better four and a half days yeah so before maybe I'd done one day
• 2:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: without planning it but this was four and a half days cold turkey I think it's
• 2:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: easier to start doing it if you've gone to a ketogenic diet so if anyone is
• 2:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: planning to do water fasting
• 2:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: don't go from 100 to zero in terms of having eaten like a lot of french fries and
• 2:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: pasta and ice cream and then suddenly from one day to the next you're going to do
• 2:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: 100 water fasting no think about your blood glucose levels before going into water
• 2:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: fasting i always tell people now because i think there are many examples of people
• 2:05:29
  SPEAKER_01: having a hard time doing water fasting and i think that's the main reason
• 2:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: makes sense the second challenge with water fasting is of course to break the fast
• 2:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: because during the fast even when I was getting chemo I felt quite okay of course
• 2:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: the first days of chemo you're poisoned so your body's dying on you still but then
• 2:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: I felt protected and of course in the beginning you're not used to it so you feel
• 2:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: like your body needs food but
• 2:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: after a few days like day two all already in my case most times but at least day
• 2:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: three four and then five six when i've extended the fast you don't feel as hungry
• 2:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: and like yeah obviously you're not gonna go run a marathon anytime soon but you can
• 2:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: kind of
• 2:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: go on with your day, especially if you're not on chemo.
• 2:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have friends, the same friend, he's been doing a week long fast just now.
• 2:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you don't need to do it for that long.
• 2:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: There are clear health benefits to just doing a two day or a three day water fast.
• 2:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: And some of the proponents of fasting,
• 2:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: they even claim that most people should consider doing a two or three day fast
• 2:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: several times a year.
• 2:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: I would also say I'm in that camp without having decided on the exact protocol.
• 2:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone would need to think about what fits them.
• 2:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: When you said you felt protected, what do you mean by that?
• 2:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it in terms that I didn't experience at all the same symptoms.
• 2:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: From the chemo?
• 2:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: From the chemo, yeah, yeah.
• 2:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have...
• 2:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: nearly as much issues with like gut symptoms.
• 2:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the difference was just the fasting.
• 2:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: And also like mental symptoms that come from having gut issues.
• 2:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 2:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: I could sleep more regularly and all of that.
• 2:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's crucial when you're getting aggressive treatment like chemo.
• 2:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: When you're getting any stress to your body,
• 2:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: you need to be able to try and get as much sleep as possible because that's when
• 2:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: your body is healing and repairing and that's when your immune system really kicks
• 2:07:45
  SPEAKER_01: in and can start strengthening you.
• 2:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then cycle three came along.
• 2:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: And since I still had had some issues, I decided and I reasoned that I need to extend it even further.
• 2:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: So then I ended up with the protocol I'm currently sticking to,
• 2:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: which is five and a half days of water fasting.
• 2:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that means...
• 2:08:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I reasoned I can't go any further because I don't have much, I don't have much body fat on me.
• 2:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't just starve myself for too long.
• 2:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: Then I'll turn into a corpse.
• 2:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: So what it means is I have a pre-treatment window of 36 hours,
• 2:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: so one and a half days,
• 2:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: which I reasoned I need at least one and a half days.
• 2:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: People often say you need two to really get down into the fasting state that is
• 2:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: protecting or healing or repairing.
• 2:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're cleaning.
• 2:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have the two and a half days during.
• 2:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then I've also reasoned based on the half life of the drugs getting that I need
• 2:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: at least another one and a half days to be on the safe side.
• 2:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like three days around and two and a half days during.
• 2:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: So five and a half days.
• 2:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: And after those five and a half days, it's time for McDonald's feasting.
• 2:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: McDonald's.
• 2:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not McDonald's, no.
• 2:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: No more McDonald's for me.
• 2:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: And feasting needs to be gradual.
• 2:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you Google fast breaking and long term fast,
• 2:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to see some protocols about what to think about.
• 2:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: And one of those things is do not introduce two calorie dense things all at once.
• 2:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be a bit more gradual about it.
• 2:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: And also my gut has been stressed by the chemo.
• 2:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I might need to be even more careful.
• 2:09:33
  SPEAKER_01: but what I noticed after failing a bit a few times now I'm on my fifth cycle so I've had
• 2:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: three cycles of this five and a half day thing is my gut is so turned off that in
• 2:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: the beginning even if i even if i wait i like the standard protocol if you're just
• 2:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: doing a long-term water fast but you're not on any other treatment it's usually
• 2:10:01
  SPEAKER_01: that you start with like some liquid um liquid uh food like a broth like a chicken
• 2:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: broth or a vegetable stock
• 2:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: and then you slowly like you take that you sip that for half an hour an hour or
• 2:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: more and you feel it out and then you can gradually start introducing like fibrous
• 2:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: vegetables but very very strongly cooked so the fibers are broken down and then
• 2:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: gradually you could you could think about introducing like some fermented foods to
• 2:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: help your guts but there i saw a challenge for me i i actually have to wait with
• 2:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: fermented foods now i feel okay
• 2:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I always have fermented foods once I've gotten my gut going.
• 2:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's like if you look at my Instagram, you're going to see a lot of fermented foods.
• 2:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: So either it's like kefir,
• 2:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: like the sour milk with bacteria,
• 2:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: or it's the sauerkraut,
• 2:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: kimchi,
• 2:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: this type of thing.
• 2:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Usually both.
• 2:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: but in the beginning that might be sensitive and then after you get that in uh you
• 2:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: can go for the proteins and the fats um but but just have a bit of time in between
• 2:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: however what i noticed was my gut was so turned off that i couldn't break down the
• 2:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: fats and the proteins and uh during cycle four i was i was eating
• 2:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: but things just came out the other end.
• 2:11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was eating a leaf of coriander, and the same leaf of coriander came out.
• 2:11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was eating a piece of eggplant, aubergine, and the same thing came out.
• 2:11:37
  SPEAKER_01: That was really scary, and that carried on for three days.
• 2:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Damn.
• 2:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: and what i realized i went in panic to a health nutrition store that sells like
• 2:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: supplements and i had like an hour-long conversation with one or one of their very
• 2:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: knowledgeable people and she was like i was asking her what what should what should
• 2:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: i do like i'm desperate here i can't eat and my weight is just dropping and that's
• 2:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: another thing like when i'm fasting my weight is dropping of course and then i need
• 2:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: to get the weight back up because i'm going on the next treatment
• 2:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we were reasoning and she was like,
• 2:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 2:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the most important things is you need digestive enzymes.
• 2:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And these are helping your body to break down food.
• 2:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So in your guts, you're going to have acid.
• 2:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like acid in your gut is helping you break down some things, but then you need the enzymes.
• 2:12:31
  SPEAKER_03: Is that like probiotics or?
• 2:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, enzymes are proteins.
• 2:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if a protein is called an enzyme, it means it's helping you break down nutrients.
• 2:12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the different enzymes are specialized on different types of food.
• 2:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: um and i had one such pill before but it wasn't strong enough so i i sourced from
• 2:12:54
  SPEAKER_01: them uh the most expensive digestive enzyme from thorn i don't know if you're
• 2:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: familiar with thorn i've heard of it yeah yeah they're like top performance
• 2:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: supplements
• 2:13:06
  SPEAKER_01: and what it has is it has the most aggressive enzymes and like salts like gall
• 2:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: salts that comes from the gallbladder that is sent into your gut by the gallbladder
• 2:13:17
  SPEAKER_01: to help digest proteins and fats so i'm i'm super boosting my gut in the first few
• 2:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: days when i'm breaking fast by taking these heavy enzymes and that's really helping
• 2:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: nice
• 2:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: and then i'm also taking a number of plant compounds to to soothe the gut and to
• 2:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: like stimulate the gut and there are a number of those that i take on pill form and
• 2:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: then for example i was recommended to take cayenne pepper which is kind of
• 2:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: stimulating the gut cells to be more active which they need they need to start
• 2:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: activating themselves so it's not just about eating it's it's also about how to
• 2:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: support the system
• 2:13:57
  SPEAKER_01: right right reintroducing the eating yeah exactly yeah um so i've had a lot of
• 2:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: hurdles and challenges for every every new cycle there's a new challenge popping up
• 2:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: you think you've gotten it right but then something changes and you need to adapt
• 2:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: um and this was one of those
• 2:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that means I'm on a five and a half day fast.
• 2:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: If I successfully start breaking it at five and a half days,
• 2:14:23
  SPEAKER_01: some instances I've had to carry on without being able to digest food for another
• 2:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: few days.
• 2:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: But ideally, I'm able to break the fast after five and a half days.
• 2:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So then I would have lost a lot of weight.
• 2:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: every day you do water fasting you're losing somewhere between 300 and 600 grams of
• 2:14:43
  SPEAKER_01: body weight at least if you're more physically active you might lose even more so
• 2:14:50
  SPEAKER_01: that means like I'm losing 3-4 kilos
• 2:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: uh and then i need to regain those so when when i've up until recently i had 14 day
• 2:14:59
  SPEAKER_01: cycles so i had like a week when i'm dropping in weight and then i just have a week
• 2:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: to get back all the weight i've lost yeah and it was clear like i wasn't able to do
• 2:15:10
  SPEAKER_01: that so there's this curve where i'm i'm getting back up but i'm not getting all
• 2:15:15
  SPEAKER_01: the way back up and then i'm getting lower and lower and lower so my lowest point
• 2:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: or like when i started treatment i was i was hovering around 87 kilos sometimes 88
• 2:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: and now at my lowest point i was down at 78 10 kilos down yeah 10 kilos down which
• 2:15:35
  SPEAKER_01: it felt like it felt like a breaking point kind of yeah
• 2:15:39
  SPEAKER_01: um but then i've been able to fine-tune the refeeding so now it's like what is it
• 2:15:49
  SPEAKER_01: nine yeah i've extended the cycles now so they're three weeks long which is much
• 2:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: better your body when it's damaged when it's broken down you need more time to
• 2:15:58
  SPEAKER_01: build back up you're not like a robot where you can just bounce back up yo-yo
• 2:16:04
  SPEAKER_01: so now since this last cycle I have a three week cycle so I'm one week where I'm
• 2:16:12
  SPEAKER_01: just systems are protect I'm protecting my system and everything's shut down and
• 2:16:18
  SPEAKER_01: then I start this refeeding and recovery phase where I start introducing food
• 2:16:24
  SPEAKER_01: before that I don't take any supplements but then when I start introducing food I
• 2:16:28
  SPEAKER_01: also start introducing a whole load of supplements and
• 2:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: at the start i was buying a lot of supplements based on reading articles but i'm
• 2:16:38
  SPEAKER_01: more and more gone towards that it's if it's possible you should get it via food
• 2:16:43
  SPEAKER_01: instead because sometimes it's it's not even like very high amounts you're getting
• 2:16:48
  SPEAKER_01: from the pills either right you need to think about how bioavailable it is how how
• 2:16:54
  SPEAKER_01: how will your body break this down and take up the nutrients if it's from a pill as
• 2:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: opposed to if it's part of a whole food.
• 2:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm still convinced that some supplements do make a lot of sense because our food isn't
• 2:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: perfect yeah of course even if you tweak it um and then there are other things to
• 2:17:17
  SPEAKER_01: the recovery cycle as well which is about like protecting and recovering from
• 2:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: adverse effects of the treatment um
• 2:17:28
  SPEAKER_01: but we can get to that later.
• 2:17:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the nervous system,
• 2:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 2:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: for me,
• 2:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: because one of the chemos is containing platinum,
• 2:17:37
  SPEAKER_01: and that platinum compound is attacking my nerve cells.
• 2:17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, damn.
• 2:17:41
  SPEAKER_03: Before we get into that, can we do another quick bathroom break?
• 2:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 2:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 2:17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Be right back.
• 2:17:46
  SPEAKER_03: And we're back.
• 2:17:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're back.
• 2:17:49
  SPEAKER_03: So we were talking about supplements, side effects, training.
• 2:17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you want to go?
• 2:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in terms of supplements, it could be worth mentioning.
• 2:17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 2:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think there's a Bible or perfect book here, especially if you have cancer.
• 2:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: There are different types of cancer, so I wouldn't want to prescribe anything to anyone.
• 2:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I could just, for transparency, I could list quickly some of the supplements I'm taking.
• 2:18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them I'm taking...
• 2:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: every day throughout the recovery phase some of them i'm just taking at parts of
• 2:18:25
  SPEAKER_01: the recovery phase where i'm like i'm a bit more careful with it to start and then
• 2:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: i taper off before the next cycle and then there's also the question of timing so
• 2:18:37
  SPEAKER_01: when would it be best to take them and of course how much so there i kind of have a
• 2:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: split between things i take in the morning before breakfast and
• 2:18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Things I would take if I have breakfast,
• 2:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: things I would take if I have lunch,
• 2:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: things I would take if I have dinner,
• 2:18:51
  SPEAKER_01: and things I would take before going to bed,
• 2:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: basically.
• 2:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the main ones there is lunch and dinner.
• 2:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the things I am taking, when breaking the fast, I'm taking some...
• 2:19:03
  SPEAKER_01: plant compounds in pill form it's like berberine morinda which is some kind of
• 2:19:09
  SPEAKER_01: extract from a fruit burdock root in swedish it's called called border root i've
• 2:19:18
  SPEAKER_01: heard of that recently which is the way i bought it at least it's in a solution
• 2:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: form so you add droplets to water and you mix the water
• 2:19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So those three I bought to help me break the fast when I had this crisis.
• 2:19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then in conjunction with those,
• 2:19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also taking a turmeric and black cumin pill,
• 2:19:41
  SPEAKER_01: which is supposed to be very potent.
• 2:19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has some pepperine as well in it.
• 2:19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So like pepper, black pepper.
• 2:19:50
  SPEAKER_01: um i'm also taking selenium on the regular selenium is supposed to be very good for
• 2:19:55
  SPEAKER_01: your gut lining and to balance things out um i was super dosing selenium for a
• 2:20:01
  SPEAKER_01: while during chemo but now i stopped doing it because i was figuring if it's that
• 2:20:09
  SPEAKER_01: good for your gut and there were some studies especially one type of selenium that
• 2:20:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's gonna selectively protect your healthy cells whilst attacking the cancer kind
• 2:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: of
• 2:20:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that's like edge case stuff.
• 2:20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you can fine tune this how much you want.
• 2:20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem is often it comes down to animal studies because these supplements,
• 2:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: they weren't studied in like a big double blind human placebo trial.
• 2:20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was deciding which supplements to take, many of them, it's like based on rat or mouse studies.
• 2:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: right i just have to make a judgment call basically if i think the indication seems
• 2:20:48
  SPEAKER_03: to be in the right direction or not yeah and also i guess try it out yeah like you
• 2:20:53
  SPEAKER_03: said for every for every cycle you have sure you learn something new sure but it's
• 2:20:57
  SPEAKER_01: impossible like i would want i would need to be able able to a b test myself yeah
• 2:21:02
  SPEAKER_01: of course i could clone myself and one victor gets this treatment and the other one
• 2:21:06
  SPEAKER_01: gets this
• 2:21:08
  SPEAKER_01: so selenium and then like the normal culprits like a vitamin complex a lot of
• 2:21:15
  SPEAKER_01: different B and B vitamins are the ones that you have a lot of different types many
• 2:21:21
  SPEAKER_01: of them are good for nerve regeneration and nerve health and for gut health and
• 2:21:26
  SPEAKER_01: immune health so that's like those are like the three main things I need to protect
• 2:21:31
  SPEAKER_01: and heal the nervous system the gut and the immune system
• 2:21:38
  SPEAKER_01: uh and then like c vitamin i have a pill which contains c vitamin and something
• 2:21:43
  SPEAKER_01: called msm in a mix it's like methyl sulfonate something which is also supposed to
• 2:21:52
  SPEAKER_01: be good for your gut there's a coenzyme q10 which is supposed to be good for your
• 2:21:58
  SPEAKER_01: gut and immune system
• 2:22:00
  SPEAKER_03: You're like a walking pharmacy, huh?
• 2:22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know if you guys know about Brian Johnson.
• 2:22:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't.
• 2:22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know?
• 2:22:07
  SPEAKER_01: He became viral on YouTube a while back, like the guy who was going to live forever.
• 2:22:14
  SPEAKER_01: For a while he looked like a robot with pale skin because he was like under-eating.
• 2:22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 2:22:23
  SPEAKER_01: But he's about longevity and he's like,
• 2:22:26
  SPEAKER_01: he was a millionaire or maybe a billionaire entrepreneur who sold his company and
• 2:22:31
  SPEAKER_01: then he figured he wanted to go all in on this health.
• 2:22:36
  SPEAKER_01: So he started to become a guinea pig for all kinds of treatments and stuff.
• 2:22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: When I saw him a few years back,
• 2:22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I saw his morning routine and he was like just chugging down tens of pills.
• 2:22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was a bit baffled.
• 2:22:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, what the hell is this?
• 2:22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it a bit too exaggerated?
• 2:22:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm actually turning into that kind of guy now.
• 2:22:55
  SPEAKER_01: I can imagine.
• 2:22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't choose the life hacking path, but now I'm on it.
• 2:23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not much choice, I feel.
• 2:23:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's just survivor instinct.
• 2:23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then like omega-3.
• 2:23:09
  SPEAKER_01: I do eat a lot of fish, but omega-3 I do supplement.
• 2:23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I bought zinc.
• 2:23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I figured it might be good.
• 2:23:20
  SPEAKER_01: When I remember to take it, I take magnesium in the evening.
• 2:23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I do have a mineral pill that I could take in the morning when I remember to.
• 2:23:30
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of minerals,
• 2:23:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's actually interesting because when I'm fasting,
• 2:23:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to have any supplements.
• 2:23:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want my, especially my stomach, to be as inactive as possible.
• 2:23:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there, especially because of chemo, but also because you're drinking without eating...
• 2:23:48
  SPEAKER_01: your body is going to risk losing a lot of electrolytes.
• 2:23:52
  SPEAKER_01: But chemo is also like pushing electrolytes balance to be off.
• 2:23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there, if you buy an electrolyte solution off the shelf, it's going to have some calories often.
• 2:24:04
  SPEAKER_01: It has like a sweetener or some, the way those minerals are contained is together with an amino acid.
• 2:24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to get some calories from it.
• 2:24:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there I had to source three different salts basically for the three main
• 2:24:19
  SPEAKER_01: minerals that I'm mixing myself.
• 2:24:23
  SPEAKER_01: One, yeah, two of them are used in cooking and like home brewing.
• 2:24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the third one is just table salt.
• 2:24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 2:24:30
  SPEAKER_01: so that that's to get uh the three main minerals so you have the the sodium which
• 2:24:36
  SPEAKER_01: you get from the sodium chloride the table salt right or any kind of salt like
• 2:24:42
  SPEAKER_01: table kind of salt or him himalaya salt or whatever and then you have the potassium
• 2:24:47
  SPEAKER_01: which i'm getting from so this is during fasting i'm getting it from the potassium
• 2:24:51
  SPEAKER_01: carb oxide
• 2:24:54
  SPEAKER_01: which is used in home brewing.
• 2:24:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's called potash.
• 2:24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third one is magnesium, which I'm getting from magnesium fluoride.
• 2:25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 2:25:04
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe even more interesting than the full breakdown is where you get your
• 2:25:07
  SPEAKER_03: information because everyone obviously will have different...
• 2:25:13
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you get your information?
• 2:25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Googling and then I try to find primary sources in terms of scientific papers.
• 2:25:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's almost never a single source that could tell you the whole truth.
• 2:25:24
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have a handful of sources and triangulate.
• 2:25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm lucky to have a bit of the study background because it would be much harder.
• 2:25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Also, my English is decent.
• 2:25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Some people might not have as easy a time
• 2:25:41
  SPEAKER_01: neither with scientific language in general, but also with scientific English and biology.
• 2:25:46
  SPEAKER_03: It can be very tricky.
• 2:25:47
  SPEAKER_03: I often study... What's the word I'm looking for?
• 2:25:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's tricky getting through a scientific study and understanding what is meant,
• 2:25:59
  SPEAKER_03: even if your English is good because it's such a specific language.
• 2:26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes with medicine, the researchers want to be very precautious as well.
• 2:26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't write things out very clearly.
• 2:26:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to go into the details of the article to make your own assessment.
• 2:26:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you got to have,
• 2:26:17
  SPEAKER_03: I guess you get some experience when reading through them,
• 2:26:20
  SPEAKER_03: but you got to like put in some work to figure out how to read a study properly.
• 2:26:24
  SPEAKER_01: yeah yeah and if you can't do it yourself you might need to find someone else who
• 2:26:29
  SPEAKER_01: can do it for you fair enough but i mean that's more or less what i'm taking in
• 2:26:33
  SPEAKER_01: terms of supplements and then also lactic bacteria lactobacillus and such so i have
• 2:26:40
  SPEAKER_01: three different pills that i'm taking with each lunch and dinner together with uh
• 2:26:45
  SPEAKER_01: lacto fermented foods so like sour milk and like kimchi or sauerkraut these kind of
• 2:26:51
  SPEAKER_01: things right
• 2:26:52
  SPEAKER_01: um but that's in terms of nutrition and then i wanted to get to another challenge
• 2:26:58
  SPEAKER_01: that i had i was losing all of this weight and i need to feed myself back up i had
• 2:27:03
  SPEAKER_01: a cycle where i was eating so much i've counted every cycle i've counted roughly
• 2:27:09
  SPEAKER_01: how much i've eaten of everything so i have like a calorie count okay for every
• 2:27:14
  SPEAKER_01: every meal every day this cycle i was eating so much i was like eating
• 2:27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe many days, like twice as much as I would need to just maintain weight.
• 2:27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I could swallow it.
• 2:27:27
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't throwing it up or anything.
• 2:27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just kept on eating.
• 2:27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And this carried on for like six, seven days.
• 2:27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 2:27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Just overeating.
• 2:27:37
  SPEAKER_01: But my body weight didn't go up as fast as I wanted it.
• 2:27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I had an issue after when I started the next round of treatment that...
• 2:27:47
  SPEAKER_01: my body hadn't broken down all of this food it was just in my system so that meant
• 2:27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I my stomach was still active during chemo and I got like bad effects of that right
• 2:27:59
  SPEAKER_01: so I recently okay I need to do something I need to change something and
• 2:28:04
  SPEAKER_01: what i realized was i hadn't been exercising i hadn't been doing like resistance
• 2:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: training for quite some time because with each iterative cycle i just felt weaker
• 2:28:14
  SPEAKER_01: and weaker so i didn't go to the gym which i'd started going to the gym before
• 2:28:19
  SPEAKER_01: getting even getting the treatments right um before my my exercise was wrestling
• 2:28:25
  SPEAKER_01: but i can't do that because of the infection risk right so i went to the gym with
• 2:28:29
  SPEAKER_01: my brother and then i just went fewer and fewer times with each cycle
• 2:28:35
  SPEAKER_01: But now I realize I need to break down my body.
• 2:28:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I need to go and train,
• 2:28:40
  SPEAKER_01: break down my body because that's going to give it the signal that it needs to,
• 2:28:46
  SPEAKER_01: so to say,
• 2:28:49
  SPEAKER_01: supercompensate.
• 2:28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because our bodies, they're all about responding to stress, responding to pressure from the outside.
• 2:28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not enough to just push a lot of food in.
• 2:28:59
  SPEAKER_01: At least in my situation, it was clear.
• 2:29:01
  SPEAKER_01: I need to break down my body, so it's going to overcompensate and build itself back up.
• 2:29:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's going to build muscle, but it's also going to accumulate fat.
• 2:29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's proven very beneficial.
• 2:29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So in the last two cycles, when I started to do strength training much more focusedly,
• 2:29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm able to gain weight in a much more stable fashion.
• 2:29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not eating as much.
• 2:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not overeating nearly as much as I did before.
• 2:29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 2:29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I could still keep eating.
• 2:29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no limit to how much I could eat.
• 2:29:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I know now it's not going to help me.
• 2:29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Before I was like overcompensating by just eating.
• 2:29:42
  SPEAKER_01: yeah so much yeah and my stomach could kind of accept it but it didn't understand
• 2:29:48
  SPEAKER_01: that it needs to break down this food in order for me to grow so right so that's
• 2:29:52
  SPEAKER_01: also like a good learning um if you want to gain weight in a stable fashion make
• 2:29:58
  SPEAKER_01: sure to train don't just eat i don't know maybe it's possible for some of these
• 2:30:02
  SPEAKER_01: hollywood actors to just eat a lot of food but it's probably not the best way to go
• 2:30:07
  SPEAKER_01: about it
• 2:30:10
  SPEAKER_01: so that's like training and yeah I'm really happy to have done to start and become
• 2:30:18
  SPEAKER_01: more serious with strength training I it's kind of just
• 2:30:25
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it was fated a few weeks before I got a commercial on Instagram and there
• 2:30:33
  SPEAKER_01: was a familiar face there.
• 2:30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And this guy, he was selling online coaching.
• 2:30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw that face and I was directly, oh, it's my old napropath.
• 2:30:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, nice.
• 2:30:42
  SPEAKER_01: The guy who had treated, I've gone to twice, once for neck issues and once for my knee.
• 2:30:49
  SPEAKER_01: So he'd done a really good job with that.
• 2:30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he had like a really good all around perspective on health.
• 2:30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw on him and when he was instructing me on doing like rehab exercises that he really knew.
• 2:31:02
  SPEAKER_01: how to use his own body as well and he's like strong holistic dude that's very
• 2:31:07
  SPEAKER_01: functional in in his training so now he's geared switched around so he's focusing
• 2:31:14
  SPEAKER_01: on online coaching so I joined this online coaching which means he's giving me the
• 2:31:21
  SPEAKER_01: strength training programs via an app so I get them he sends them to me for a
• 2:31:27
  SPEAKER_01: specific day and I just need to execute on that and that's
• 2:31:31
  SPEAKER_01: that's one of the learnings also like I cannot carry all of this on my own I need
• 2:31:37
  SPEAKER_01: to ask for help I need to build a network or an army even like the way I see it
• 2:31:43
  SPEAKER_01: it's an army of soldiers and we're all in this war together and that's also the
• 2:31:48
  SPEAKER_01: energy I want people to bring into the room even if they would feel saddened that
• 2:31:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sick I mean it might sound rough but
• 2:31:58
  SPEAKER_01: you're not going to get anywhere by just feeling sad about it you need to if you're
• 2:32:03
  SPEAKER_01: in a war if you're in a war zone you can't just cuddle up in a corner because the
• 2:32:07
  SPEAKER_01: enemy is coming so you need to prepare you need to prep yourself you need you need
• 2:32:11
  SPEAKER_01: to build up build up a supply line of resources you need to think about strategy
• 2:32:18
  SPEAKER_01: and it's here now it's not tomorrow so there's a time crunch and anytime I feel
• 2:32:25
  SPEAKER_01: anytime I let energy pacify me it's gonna just help the enemy yeah
• 2:32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I try to turn the mentality of anyone I speak to,
• 2:32:38
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's about my own diagnosis or if they have a hardship.
• 2:32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just about disease, it's about anything.
• 2:32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Just do your best to try and switch that to take some kind of action, some step forward.
• 2:32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:32:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're all losing in the end.
• 2:32:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a losing game.
• 2:32:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's only one outcome here,
• 2:32:59
  SPEAKER_01: but we can extend the game and we can try and have as fun as possible playing the game.
• 2:33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Improve the quality of the game.
• 2:33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 2:33:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's also an interesting aspect.
• 2:33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I feel more creative now that I've gotten this serious situation on my hands.
• 2:33:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like there's a protective layer of playing it safe that is coming off.
• 2:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I'm shedding some skin where...
• 2:33:37
  SPEAKER_01: it might have been already in my head before that i yeah i don't feel like i'm
• 2:33:41
  SPEAKER_01: censoring myself i i still feel like myself in any social setting but now i'm like
• 2:33:46
  SPEAKER_01: gradually more and more aggressively shedding that skin that mask it's coming off
• 2:33:52
  SPEAKER_01: the the being more you yeah which which means very multifaceted me like i i'm not
• 2:33:59
  SPEAKER_01: just one person
• 2:34:01
  SPEAKER_01: i might have behaved like one person at work like okay this the workplace victor
• 2:34:06
  SPEAKER_01: and he has a flavor of who he actually is but maybe not as many percent of that
• 2:34:11
  SPEAKER_01: flavor as could be there yeah and then there's the victor with his family he might
• 2:34:16
  SPEAKER_01: might also have another flavor but not fully 100 there so i'm just trying to like
• 2:34:23
  SPEAKER_01: mind meld all of these facets of myself and see what comes out just not trying to
• 2:34:32
  SPEAKER_01: inhibit my instincts to create and like get things out there communicating with
• 2:34:38
  SPEAKER_01: people and another important aspect of that is just reaching out to to like long
• 2:34:43
  SPEAKER_01: lost friends friends that I haven't talked to for a long while and I feel like
• 2:34:47
  SPEAKER_01: that's bouncing off as well so they start reaching out to me and
• 2:34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like spreading messages in social media and people start to respond and I get
• 2:34:57
  SPEAKER_01: these beautiful conversations going like you and me yeah so I just want to keep
• 2:35:02
  SPEAKER_01: that going and see where that leads like the other day yesterday I released this
• 2:35:08
  SPEAKER_01: quite experimental feature film mm-hmm
• 2:35:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a short film.
• 2:35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:35:14
  SPEAKER_01: If people come upon it on social media,
• 2:35:16
  SPEAKER_01: they might not even recognize that it's a film because it starts as a still image
• 2:35:21
  SPEAKER_01: and then one second in I start to speak.
• 2:35:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like cycle five,
• 2:35:28
  SPEAKER_01: day four,
• 2:35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Victor's Odyssey,
• 2:35:32
  SPEAKER_01: the battle,
• 2:35:33
  SPEAKER_01: the inner war against the disfigurement of the self.
• 2:35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:35:38
  SPEAKER_01: and then i start speaking about like my cancer journey my battle with cancer in a
• 2:35:43
  SPEAKER_01: metaphorical sense but for me it's not just a metaphor like i i feel that it is a
• 2:35:47
  SPEAKER_01: war yeah and i do feel in a weird way i do feel a connection to like my viking
• 2:35:52
  SPEAKER_01: heritage right because it's it's part of me even if i if it's laid dormant like
• 2:35:58
  SPEAKER_01: look at modern day swedish society it's not very viking-esque
• 2:36:02
  SPEAKER_01: but i think if you just let yourself be inspired by another a friend of mine he
• 2:36:09
  SPEAKER_01: wrote in the chat when he gave me some credit for it he said like yeah you're using
• 2:36:14
  SPEAKER_01: the archetypes the warrior yeah like the archetypes of stories but you're putting
• 2:36:20
  SPEAKER_01: them in in a real life context and i think you can do that much more in your own
• 2:36:25
  SPEAKER_01: life like
• 2:36:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to be inspired by an archetype, just be inspired by that archetype.
• 2:36:31
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to ask for permission.
• 2:36:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can be the hero of your own story.
• 2:36:36
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a warrior mentality, even if you're just clocking in at work.
• 2:36:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to buy into a narrative that someone else has given you.
• 2:36:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I'm more and more starting to create my own narrative and...
• 2:36:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hoping that's going to help other people to think that way as well.
• 2:36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very empowering to be able to decide on your own perspective on situations,
• 2:37:03
  SPEAKER_01: especially when you're facing health issues.
• 2:37:06
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 2:37:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what your Instagram was like before,
• 2:37:09
  SPEAKER_03: but it's definitely a lot of inspirational stuff and also fun stuff.
• 2:37:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're letting loose and I think it's great.
• 2:37:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's great.
• 2:37:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm dancing, I'm fighting, I'm singing in Persian.
• 2:37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm loving it.
• 2:37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think next time I asked a friend I want to sing in Finnish next.
• 2:37:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to look into some Finnish folk music.
• 2:37:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you have any from your... From Yugoslavia?
• 2:37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just send it my way.
• 2:37:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'll send something to you.
• 2:37:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to do a duet, I wouldn't mind as well.
• 2:37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have a Persian friend I want to do a duet with.
• 2:37:45
  SPEAKER_01: I have a Moroccan friend I want to do a duet with.
• 2:37:48
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to,
• 2:37:50
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 2:37:50
  SPEAKER_01: just keep tracing those paths forward in terms of obviously solving my own health
• 2:37:55
  SPEAKER_01: situation or like fighting for that,
• 2:37:58
  SPEAKER_01: but also seeing the waves that can bring to a wider audience,
• 2:38:02
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's talking to individual cancer people with cancer and see how...
• 2:38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I could maybe nudge them in some productive way,
• 2:38:10
  SPEAKER_01: but also talking like I'm low-key manipulating the healthcare system based on my
• 2:38:15
  SPEAKER_01: current situation.
• 2:38:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm tweaking a lot of things.
• 2:38:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm asking the oncologist to do this and that.
• 2:38:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like slowly trying to affect the healthcare system from within as well.
• 2:38:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know I need to play with them.
• 2:38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not against them.
• 2:38:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's also an interesting, like important thing in this whole thing.
• 2:38:33
  SPEAKER_01: I see an interesting perspective on
• 2:38:37
  SPEAKER_01: people being faced with a serious disease and some people tend to become passive so
• 2:38:45
  SPEAKER_01: they they accept the paradigm of this is conventional treatment these are the
• 2:38:50
  SPEAKER_01: options you're given this is the health care plan and if you just stick to that
• 2:38:54
  SPEAKER_01: you're you're gonna be doing the best you possibly can if you just listen to the
• 2:38:59
  SPEAKER_01: doctors and the nurses and you just accept the treatment right you're doing the
• 2:39:03
  SPEAKER_01: best you can
• 2:39:04
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other side,
• 2:39:05
  SPEAKER_01: you have the people who see the downside of conventional treatment and they back
• 2:39:10
  SPEAKER_01: off and they're like becoming a bit too critical of the flaws that do exist in this system.
• 2:39:17
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of flaws.
• 2:39:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge colossus of a system.
• 2:39:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of bullshit going on.
• 2:39:23
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 2:39:23
  SPEAKER_01: for one,
• 2:39:24
  SPEAKER_01: have noticed and discovered some things that were kind of pushed on me that I
• 2:39:29
  SPEAKER_01: wouldn't want to touch.
• 2:39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:39:31
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is cortisone, corticosteroids, which we could get into with your treatment as well.
• 2:39:37
  SPEAKER_01: But then if you take too much of an issue with the flaws of the conventional treatment,
• 2:39:47
  SPEAKER_01: you might risk going 100% the other direction.
• 2:39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly you're ending up in some alternative therapy camp where you're not
• 2:39:57
  SPEAKER_01: accepting anything that has some actual scientific literature behind it.
• 2:40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like just pushing back on that.
• 2:40:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're kicking back like a donkey.
• 2:40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you're going to some healing retreat and hoping that will resolve the whole issue.
• 2:40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think everyone needs to decide for themselves on a middle ground here.
• 2:40:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can't just deny half of the truth because there's truth in both camps.
• 2:40:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to find where you are on this spectrum.
• 2:40:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for the best of every individual, if they would try and broaden their views...
• 2:40:38
  SPEAKER_01: would be to find the middle ground there somewhere in between.
• 2:40:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's black and white,
• 2:40:43
  SPEAKER_01: you need to think about which nuance of gray is it that I'm going to trace down.
• 2:40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that could change over time.
• 2:40:50
  SPEAKER_01: You might find some new insights,
• 2:40:51
  SPEAKER_01: which means maybe you're moving a bit more towards the conventional route in this aspect.
• 2:40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you're saying, OK, the conventional thing here is not enough.
• 2:41:00
  SPEAKER_01: I need to do something more over here.
• 2:41:03
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're not actively doing that,
• 2:41:05
  SPEAKER_01: you're either becoming a victim of,
• 2:41:09
  SPEAKER_01: you're just victimizing yourself to be a passive agent in the conventional system,
• 2:41:14
  SPEAKER_01: or you're fully denying the conventional alternatives and you're finding whatever
• 2:41:20
  SPEAKER_01: else you're going to jump on.
• 2:41:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 2:41:23
  SPEAKER_01: So taking ownership is not just about feeling a sense of ownership,
• 2:41:27
  SPEAKER_01: which helps you mentally,
• 2:41:29
  SPEAKER_01: but it's also to find that middle ground.
• 2:41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just about treatment of a disease.
• 2:41:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's thinking anything.
• 2:41:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have a tendency to think very black and white.
• 2:41:40
  SPEAKER_01: We are the good guys.
• 2:41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the bad guys.
• 2:41:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, that's what's creating conflict very often.
• 2:41:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's creating a distance between people and situations.
• 2:41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Very inspirational stuff, man.
• 2:41:58
  SPEAKER_03: I wrote to you on Instagram saying that I'm both inspired and impressed by what
• 2:42:03
  SPEAKER_03: you're doing because your inner Viking might have been dormant,
• 2:42:08
  SPEAKER_03: but
• 2:42:10
  SPEAKER_03: I saw some of that in our first conversation as well.
• 2:42:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 2:42:13
  SPEAKER_03: from your submission wrestling background,
• 2:42:16
  SPEAKER_03: I could tell already within a week after getting the diagnosis that you were
• 2:42:20
  SPEAKER_03: already trying to figure out how do I wrestle myself out of this situation.
• 2:42:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you are not ready to just give up or put your faith in someone else's hands.
• 2:42:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that is very inspirational.
• 2:42:34
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people...
• 2:42:36
  SPEAKER_03: for various reasons struggle doing that so seeing someone who does it is yeah it's
• 2:42:42
  SPEAKER_03: cool man it's very impressive i'm very grateful that you wanted to come here again
• 2:42:47
  SPEAKER_03: and give us an update on your journey because i think that can help a lot of people
• 2:42:51
  SPEAKER_01: thanks yeah i know you need to get going so we should wrap it up soon
• 2:42:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, to you, I know you have some ongoing treatment.
• 2:43:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to keep discussing that off mic.
• 2:43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then anyone listening,
• 2:43:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you feel like reaching out,
• 2:43:08
  SPEAKER_01: if you have something you want to talk about health-wise,
• 2:43:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be very happy to discuss.
• 2:43:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an expert on anything, but...
• 2:43:15
  SPEAKER_01: I have dedicated a lot of passion and time now in the last few months to my
• 2:43:21
  SPEAKER_01: diagnosis and I've touched upon other things as well.
• 2:43:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to talk to me, just reach out.
• 2:43:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can either reach out via Facebook,
• 2:43:31
  SPEAKER_01: just friend me,
• 2:43:32
  SPEAKER_01: but then it might take some time or just write me in Instagram.
• 2:43:36
  SPEAKER_01: My handle is a bit weird.
• 2:43:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's Victor underscore D underscore A underscore D underscore A.
• 2:43:44
  SPEAKER_01: so victor dada but with those i'll put it in the description so people can do do
• 2:43:50
  SPEAKER_01: feel free to reach out because it's also helping me if if i can bounce ideas off of
• 2:43:54
  SPEAKER_01: other people whether whether it's health issues or mental issues um yeah just happy
• 2:44:01
  SPEAKER_01: to discuss happy to reach out
• 2:44:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a podcast yet,
• 2:44:05
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm happy to chat in a similar way as Yoshi is doing in this great fashion.
• 2:44:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to congratulate you on the 100th episode as well.
• 2:44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 2:44:16
  SPEAKER_01: This will be a few months down the line to be published.
• 2:44:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll probably be at like 110, 120.
• 2:44:23
  SPEAKER_03: No, not that much.
• 2:44:24
  SPEAKER_03: Something like 105, 6, somewhere.
• 2:44:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you just keep it going.
• 2:44:28
  SPEAKER_01: I will.
• 2:44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't listened to your first episodes,
• 2:44:31
  SPEAKER_01: but I guess as anything,
• 2:44:34
  SPEAKER_01: if you just get started,
• 2:44:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to improve over time.
• 2:44:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like my strategy, you just fine-tune it.
• 2:44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of just sitting there over-analyzing things, you need to get started.
• 2:44:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then things will come out of that, and you'll learn a lot, and you'll connect with other people.
• 2:44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:44:52
  SPEAKER_01: yeah yeah for sure um yes as i um as i say in my instagram just let's fucking go
• 2:45:00
  SPEAKER_03: team let's fucking go fantastic closing words thank you very much victor really
• 2:45:07
  SPEAKER_01: appreciate it for for people off camera you won't be seeing this but i'm gonna ask
• 2:45:11
  SPEAKER_01: yoshi to do a warrior face in front of the camera they might see they might see it
• 2:45:16
  SPEAKER_03: on your on your instagram
• 2:45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Are you up for that?
• 2:45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, of course.
• 2:45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's do it.
• 2:45:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing warrior face.
• 2:45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, in front of the camera.
• 2:45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds good.
• 2:45:21
  SPEAKER_01: You've seen it, right?
• 2:45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it, yeah.
• 2:45:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you practiced.
• 2:45:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:45:25
  SPEAKER_01: You knew this would come.
• 2:45:27
  SPEAKER_01: It had to, it had to.
• 2:45:28
  SPEAKER_03: It had to come.
• 2:45:29
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 2:45:30
  SPEAKER_03: So, are we doing it now or are we doing it after?
• 2:45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 2:45:33
  SPEAKER_01: we do it and maybe there's like a faint echo sound of me grunting in the background
• 2:45:40
  SPEAKER_01: and that's like the end of the podcast.
• 2:45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Then it's like fade out to the soundtrack.
• 2:45:45
  SPEAKER_03: Sounds good.
• 2:45:46
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for everyone who's been listening.
• 2:45:48
  SPEAKER_03: See you next time.
• 2:45:49
  SPEAKER_03: Let's wrap things up with the warrior face.
• 2:45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, guys.
• 2:45:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a pleasure.
• 2:45:53
  SPEAKER_01: As I said, reach out if you want.
• 2:45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Yoshi.
• 2:45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, work.
• 2:45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Work.
• 2:45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Work.
• 2:46:05
  SPEAKER_03: Good shit.
• 2:46:05
  SPEAKER_03: All right, take care.