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Carolyn Roark: What Do You Want Your Book to Do for You? · The Daily Writer

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Rider.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: Each weekday we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers, as well as teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: As writers, we spend loads of time worrying about the details of writing.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: We worry about getting the words done, we worry about editing, we think a lot about publishing and so many other things.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it's good to step back and take a look at the big picture and ask ourselves, what do I really want from this book project?
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my guest today is here to help us figure out the answers to that all-important question.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Her name is Carolyn Rourke, and she is a writing coach, editor, and ghostwriter who helps aspiring authors express themselves beautifully and find the right platform for their ideas.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: Her clients have included everyone from venture capitalists to restaurateurs to cancer survivors.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Carolyn finished her PhD at 29, which is immensely impressive, by the way, and she headed straight into the Ivory Tower.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: In her bio, she says this.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: So as a former college professor, I can totally relate to all that.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: In this conversation, Carolyn helps answer some burning questions, such as, What can a book do for you?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: How can we maximize the benefits of a book for our personal life and business?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: What are some obstacles or problems that get in the way of success with book launches and marketing?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: And what are some mindset shifts that authors need to make around their book launches or marketing?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: So Carolyn is really, really smart, and this is why I wanted to have her on the show because she has not only a great creative mind, but also a very, very sharp business sense.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Now, as I mentioned, Carolyn is a ghostwriter, and she's been enormously helpful to me as I have kind of gotten my sea legs under me the last year or so with ghostwriting.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: It was so much fun to get connected with her earlier this year, and we've had several really, really fun conversations, this one being no exception.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, with that said, let's get right to the conversation with Carolyn Work.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Carolyn, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: I am thrilled to be talking with you.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: We've had a few conversations before, but this is your first appearance on the show, and I'm really glad to have you.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: So thanks for being here.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I am glad to be here.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: So this is an exciting uh conversation because we're going to talk about something that is a critical component, I think, of any book project, and for any business, really for that matter, but specifically, we're nailing this down in regards to books, and that is what do you want a book to do for you?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: So let's start with this.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Why is this an important question for people to ask?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: What they want a book to do for them.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Why is this such a critical thing for authors to think about?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not only a critical thing, it's a neglected thing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh, that's good.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Every book is a tool already, whether you know it is or not, right?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it because it exists to serve a purpose in the reader's life first, right?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as a reader myself, you know, if I want to have my pants scared off, I might go and get a Stephen King novel, you know, and that's the purpose it serves, because that's what I want.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: If I want to build a doghouse that isn't going to fall down on my dog's head, I go and I get a for dummies book because I know that that's going to be the tool that helps me do that.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think we have an easier time getting our brains around the idea that every book can be a tool for the reader, in that every reader goes to any book they encounter for a reason.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: They want it to do something for them.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's a practical something, or whether it's a pleasure or a fun something, or whether it's processing trauma, we know when we go to a book that we want the book to do something for us.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think as authors, we sometimes fail to see that the same thing is true.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you're going to put all of the energy and the effort and the money and the emotion and the time into creating a book, there is a thing that you want it to do for you.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's that's not to say that there's a right answer or a wrong answer in terms of what a book should do for you, accepting that there is a right answer or a wrong answer for what the book should do for you if you follow me, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's uh every person can have a different answer.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I need lead generation, or I need to better pre-qualify the people uh who I want to work with, or um, I need to present myself as a subject matter expert so that one day I can get on that TED stage the way that I've dreamed of doing.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Every author might have a different need or desire.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: But if that book is going to help them achieve that goal, the author really needs to know what they want that book to do.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: It would be a terrible idea to try and use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail, right?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've done it before, but it doesn't work for you.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's a terrible thing.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you might sort of be able to make it happen.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: You, you know, you definitely wouldn't try to use a hammer to frost a cake.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um so when you are thinking about creating a book, you know, going through all of the work to put this book together, it's important to keep in mind what you want that book to accomplish for you so that you're actually creating the tool that will serve that need.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: So we're both ghostwriters, we're we're involved in the same kind of business with clients.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: When you're talking with your clients or prospective clients about this exact subject, what are some of the things that a book can do for you, but they don't know the answer to that?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: How do you how do you help cast a vision for them or how do you help get them thinking about this topic if if all they've ever really seen is I want a book, but they haven't really thought much about what the book can do for them?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of the com the kind of conversations that you have around that?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh one conversation, of course, I I have to have is if it's simply a bucket list item, right?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if they have no goal for writing a book other than to say that they did, uh to understand and accept what that outcome might be, right?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, okay, if if all you really want is to say that you wrote a book, then you don't really ever have to do anything but leave your room.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: You don't really have to ever show it to anybody but yourself.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you start with chapter one, page one, and then you write whatever you want, and then you come to the end of it and voila, you've written a book.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when you tell people that, they they go, well, okay, maybe I want to do more than just write a book.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dig into that.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: What you know, what is it that that you are hoping the book will do?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Are you, well, I I really wanted to share some of the wisdom I've learned with my children.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're talking legacy.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or, well, I've had these traumas in my life that I've had to overcome, but I've never had the time to process them.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay, then what you really want is a tool to help you process your life experiences.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: So whether or not they know it, they don't just, even if that you know the book is a bucket list item, they don't just want to write it.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: They want it to do something, and somewhere in there they already know what that is.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And once you start to unearth that, then you can help them start to think about okay, do I really need to go through all of the heavy lifting of publishing a book in a big way, say, like with one of the big five traditional publishers, or can I get what I want uh simply by creating something that I can go to a self-publishing outfit, print 20 copies, wrap it up, and put it under the Christmas tree for everybody I care about.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Will that get me what I want?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first thing, you know, you have to kind of tease out what's what's underneath that surface desire to write a book to what they really actually are thinking a book will accomplish for them.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes whenever I talk to people about ghostwriting, I I describe ghostwriting as half of the whole process is like therapy.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because so much of what we do is involved, you know, it's listening to their story, it's listening to many times the nuances in people's voice.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's just kind of like listening to somebody else's life and trying to give them something that's important to them through a book, you know, and just like you're saying, a book is a channel that a lot of cool things can flow through and a book can get you a lot of different things, but we just have to help them articulate what it is.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: So if I hear you correctly, you're saying that people always want something, but sometimes we just have to draw it out of them and help to get them talking and dreaming and and thinking.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because even if somebody says, Well, I just want to have a book so I can have a book, there's always something behind that, many times something really deep and significant and meaningful to that person.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: So is that a fair way of kind of describing that process of drawing out those dreams for people?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because a book is never just a book, right?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: It it symbolizes something to absolutely uh, you know, whether or not you know it that it can be something as simple as um having a record of their life and the things that are important to them, or it can symbolize access to a new community that they want to be part of, and they're hoping that that book will be the key that unlocks the door to that community.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, or it could symbolize connection to them, that they're, you know, they have this idea in their heads or a desire, a longing to connect with a certain group of people.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the book to them symbolizes the hope for that connection.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: So a book is really almost like a um, I was gonna use the word totem.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's not really what I mean, but it's um it's almost like a you know, sometimes in movies or stories, uh though there will be some kind of magical object that is, you know, like in Raiders of the Lost Ark, it really wasn't about finding the arc, it was really about the process of finding, it was about the chase or about the journey, is really what it was about.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh at least I think.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: So in many ways, a book, it's not really about the book, it's about something else, about what it gets for the reader, about what it gets for the author and all the all the good that it can bring into the world in a way.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Which goes back to why every book is a tool, right?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because it's not just uh it's not just an object, or at least, you know, for for for most of us uh who actually open the covers and read them, uh more than just decoration, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're they're more than than just uh something that you put on the shelves because it looks nice as your backdrop.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's a uh something that you're going to interact with and you're going to have a relationship with.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And through that book, you're going to have a relationship with the author.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I've found about most authors, uh, they they may not know it when they get started, but they figure out very quickly that that's what they're trying to do.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: The book is a means of building a relationship with someone.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like a bridge to a bridge to somewhere else, to another person's heart or their soul.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds like their mind or their pocketbook.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, whatever, whatever it is.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, a book can definitely get you clients, that's for sure.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about some of the tangible things that a book can get someone.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: So let's say somebody who's listening is thinking about writing a book, or maybe they're thinking about having a book ghostwritten.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: And here you have two ghostwriters who do this for a living.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, and there's plenty of other people in the world who do the kind of work that we do as well.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: So lots of choices there.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, what are some of the tangible things that a book can get for someone or do for someone?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: Business, personal, anything, anything is fair game here.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've, you know, I've heard many stories from many different authors about either a thing that they want a book to do or a thing that they have used a book to do.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, one example I can give, and you know, this is sort of on one end of the spectrum, um, I have a friend and colleague who was frustrated that the kinds of people, potential clients who were coming into his company were not a good fit for his company.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: He ran a kind of a boutique mortgage company.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he said, most of the people we were having these conversations with, they just wanted to find the cheapest rate possible.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't looking for the kind of products that we offered.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so frustrating to have to have these conversations.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So he wrote a short book that helped educate people about the process of getting a mortgage and also about the kind of mortgage products they had to offer.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it was a free download.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that way, before people made direct contact with this company, they could download the book.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: They could read, you know, some of them probably didn't get past the first five pages before they went, oh no, this is not the mortgage company for me.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so it bought my friend back a lot of his time because he was no longer having conversations with people who were a bad fit for his company.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it educated the people who were a good fit for his company so that when they had that first conversation, he didn't have to spend so much time saying, okay, here's everything that you need to know.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: They already got their brains around the basic stuff he wanted them to understand so they could get straight to the real meat of the conversation about the product they were looking for.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, you know, that's one example.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had another lady that I had a conversation with a few months ago, and this is one of the most delightful answers I've ever heard in terms of wanting a book.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: She said, you know, Carolyn, I've been in business a long time.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm getting older.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I am a woman who's reached a certain level of success and uh respect.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of the people I know keep sending these young folks to me saying, ask her to mentor you.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: She's wonderful.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: She says, I'm getting older.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I want to retire.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have time or interest in mentoring every you know young green thing that comes to me.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I want to, you know, I'm ready to just enjoy my life.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to have a book because when these young people come to me saying, so and so says I must absolutely sit at your feet and learn for you, I can then say to them, here, kid, read this book.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I can go, you know, on with gardening or traveling or whatever it is I really want to do.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, two entirely different things, uh, but both completely legitimate reasons to write a book.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: People can want a book because they hope to persuade somebody to come over to their way of thinking about an important topic.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: People can write a book because they feel like they've learned a better way to do something and they're excited about it, and they want to share their better process for doing something with the world in the hope that it will increase effectiveness and efficiency for everybody.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's all kinds of reasons to write a book.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: This gets this kind of stuff really gets me excited because I sometimes I tell people, and I know this sounds kind of sappy and silly, but that's okay.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm at the point in my life where I don't really care if I sound sappy or silly, because I guess I am, you know what I mean?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: But I really believe that there are there's not very many forms of magic left in the world, but I think a book is one of them because there's still something really, really magical about giving somebody, especially a print copy of your book.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, any book is great, audiobooks are great, and I understand those are really valuable, but there's something magical about giving somebody a print copy of your book, and it just opens doors.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: People just um they light up when you can give them a copy of your print book, and it just it just gets you so many cool things in life.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love books, you know.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Books are some of my best friends, and they always have they don't argue.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, they they don't refuse to know you.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they they always they're always there, open yeah, they they're always there, they they always open doors to places, you know, that that you want to go.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: They can be a wonderful means of escape, they can be a great comfort, uh, they can make you a little better than you are today.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, absolutely.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there is something, at least to me, about a print book.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I yeah, I hey, I don't get me wrong, I love my Kindle app.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: You'd have to pull it from my cold dead fingers.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's great to be able to have access to ebooks, but when I find a book that I just really respond to, you know, when it's when it's special and when I develop a real relationship with that book, I always want to have a hard copy.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there are many books I have that I originally bought as ebooks.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then because I fell in love with them, I then went out and got the physical copy.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: And if you know the author too, or you want to support them, it's cool to have the ebook and then buy the print book.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just think for some of the people.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, this is dependent on on going to the right people, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that you get a good cover and so that you end up with a product the pages don't fall out the first time that you open it.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not so awesome if uh you know, if if you haven't taken the time and invested the money to get a decent cover.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've seen some doozies.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I have too.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I've had the experience lately, and I'm sure you've had this experience too, where you have a friend who publishes a book.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, this person or these people shall read my nameless because it's happened multiple times over the years, where you know, friends have have self-published books and the covers are not good.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there's something really wonky about the formatting or the layout, and you you have this ethical debate going on inside your heart where you go, I love this person, I care about them, I want to see them successful, but they haven't asked for my feedback on this.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: So should I say something?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: Should I not?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you've ever experienced that before, but it's oh yeah, it's a hard place to be.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, it is.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a definitely difficult place to be.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact, I used to know a playwright, a very well-known playwright, who uh would say, you know, he'd he'd be invited to plays by younger up-and-coming playwrights, and they'd come running up to him at the end of it and be like, So what did you think?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if he hadn't cared for the work, then he would smile and say, You've done it again.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: Good job.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: You did another one.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: You've done it again, yeah.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: It is tough.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: It it and it takes a certain amount of self-discipline, I think, not to offer the unsolicited advice.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody gives you a product that you can tell is not going to serve them.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's especially, you know, it's if you have a personal relationship with the person in question, it it can be really difficult because you want good things for them.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I have learned to wait until if if not when I'm asked.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what's your feedback?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then at least for them to express, you know, I did this thing, and it's not getting me what I want.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's either they say, gosh, I felt like I did all the right things, but it's not selling well, or, you know, I'm I'm getting it out there, but nobody's coming back to me, and nobody's booking me, or nobody's calling me, or nobody's signing up for my products.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they express a sense of dissatisfaction with how the thing is working for them, that's when I feel like I have the permission to say, well, okay, let's.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go back to the idea of this thing as a tool and let's maybe look at what some of the current problems in its design are.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we can talk, you know, you the one of the nice things is I think people make the mistake of thinking once the book is out there, once it's in print in some way, that's it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's done.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the door is closed, there's there's no going back.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's no possibility of change.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then the good thing is that's not necessarily true.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's especially um different if you've self-published or you've gone with hybrid publishing, where if you if it turns out that you're not happy with this iteration of the product, then you can go back and you can rework it, and then you can re-release it and say, this is a new updated edition, or this is a new iteration, and it's it's improved on what I did last time.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, you know, there's going to be expense involved in that, and there's going to be effort involved in that, but you do get do-overs in the world of publishing, I think, especially in this day and age, in a way that perhaps we didn't when the only option was, you know, traditional publishing like back in the 80s.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's the great thing about self-publishing today.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, with Amazon, they make it so easy to upload a revised cover or something that you've changed in the interior file.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Or whatever it is, or you can just put out a whole new edition of it.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's that's the cool thing, is okay, change up the book somewhat, put out an updated edition or a this year's edition or whatever it is.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's great because you have total control over what you want to do with your book.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can course correct.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you if you're not on the right path, you can take a step back and you can course correct and you can try again.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Let's dive into some of the obstacles or problems that authors sometimes have.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that they they want something, they want their book to get them something, some kind of success.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they want the book to help them get clients, maybe it's a legacy type of book, whatever it is that they want.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of the problems, the most common problems that you see authors running into when they have a goal that they want their book to get them, but they're not getting it?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Is it is it things related to to uh writing quality?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Is it things related to their mindset or marketing?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of the kind of the big the big rocks that struggles that create struggles for writers?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think one problem is impatience.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um I wouldn't have thought about that, but you're exactly right.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because impatience can bite you at any stage along the process, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I really just want to get it out there, so I'm I'm not gonna have um an outsider perspective.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not gonna have somebody look at it and give me feedback on it, or um, I'm just gonna try and get it on Amazon right now and not have it proofread, or um, I'm not gonna take the time, I'm just gonna go with the first cover designer that I can find who who fits what I think is my budget.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so some one of the problems is impatience, just you know, prioritizing getting it out there now over doing it the best way that you can right now.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think another big problem is not budgeting properly, putting the money in the wrong place.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one of the things I've seen happen a lot is authors will dump a lot of money into working with a publicity firm, maybe that they haven't really checked out.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then they so they they don't have any money for interior design and cover design.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: So they end up with a really cheap-looking product, and because they've also not really checked out the publicity agency they're going to work with, they've spent all their money in the wrong direction and they don't get the return on investment for it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then on in addition to that, uh, not making the right moves when it comes to marketing.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in order for your book to do for you what you want it to do, you have to get it into the hands of the people that you want it to reach.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that means marketing.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: That means identifying the channels that the book needs to travel down and sending it down those channels successfully and getting it into the hands of the people that you want it to get into the hands of.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And hey, you know, if if you're a really fantastic marketer and you feel competent to handle that yourself, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as you familiarize yourself with the ins and outs of book publishing specifically and book marketing specifically.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can do it yourself, but you should never do it halfway.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you know you're not going to have the time to invest in getting that platform built and getting that platform built right, then you need to work with somebody who does.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you you really need to vet the people that you're going to work with, because there are unfortunately, especially with indie publishing, there are there are some bad actors out there, you know, people who really will take advantage of uh those who are naive.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there are folks who hang out a shingle who think they're going to be good at marketing and publicity for books and who really aren't that good at it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then there are companies that know how to do marketing and platform building for other things, but they don't really understand how to work with books.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're not as efficient and effective with books as they could be.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think all of those are mistakes that you can make along the way.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, honestly, Ken, I think all of those mistakes, when you boil them down, they come down to not educating yourself.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all of those things emerge from not taking the time to get to know the industry that you're getting ready to participate in, you know, the publishing industry, and just doing some of the basic self-education that you would do before you went to a restaurant, you know.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you're gonna go to Yelp, you're gonna read some reviews, you're gonna look at the menu online, you're going to check out what the hours are, you're gonna ask the people that you're going with if they all like that type of food.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, just this basic level of self-education that you would invest before you went out to dinner somewhere.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Take the time, make that investment, and educate yourself about what it takes to author and publish a book.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's plenty of resources out there, most of them five to seven-minute reads that you can access.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: I do think it's interesting, you know, from our perspective as ghostwriters, people can invest a lot of money into hiring a ghostwriter.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, of course, there's there's a range of ghostwriting fees and all that stuff, but people can can spend a significant amount of time and money investing in a book, but but invest almost nothing into marketing.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know what the solution to that is, other than I I try to help clients understand the value of marketing and give them some resources for doing that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, I'm not a marketing agency, I'm a ghostwriter.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: So my job is not primarily in the marketing side of the things, but but I also want them to be successful with their book.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: And and I I guess it's just a process of education, helping people to understand, okay, once we get the book done, that's that's part of the battle.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, maybe that's even just the opening, the opening act of the deal, because the marketing is going to be a years-long process that you never really truly quit.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I as you say, I think it's just a matter of of educating yourself first.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: And when you have a sense of the shape of things, then you can make better choices.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you if you get a general sense, for example, of of what kind of effort it's going to take for your book to reach the people that you want it to reach, then you'll be able to say to yourself, that is the thing I can do on my own.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: I know I can do that.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's in my wheelhouse.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or that's not a thing I can really do.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I better go and get some help.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, every author, you know, you you have to be involved personally in your book.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think it's something you can outsource 100% to somebody else.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: It has to be you out there on some level.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, obviously there are things you can hire out, social media, and um, I mean, there's so many things you that an author could hire out to help with, but you have to be involved personally on some level with your book.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes time and energy and effort, and and it's just uh you know, no wonder sometimes people just quit halfway through books because they just get tired and exhausted.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: But you got to be ready for the long game with this and really trust in your message and believe that I can help people ultimately.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it can bite you in the bum if you're not involved.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I can remember, for example, I this this is back when I was doing short form stuff in addition to books.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I had this lovely fellow that I worked with, and he came to me because he'd he'd had a series of blog posts written, and he'd given the the writer um a sense of what he wanted to communicate.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then he'd kind of let the writer go to town and put the things up on his blog without looking closely at them.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he'd gotten a lot of criticism and pushback from his community in the comments.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so he came to me and he says, Well, I need to fix these because you know, I'm I'm actually like it's been counterproductive.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: These didn't do what I wanted them to, and they have kind of damaged my reputation.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went and I had a look at the blogs and I asked him, okay, tell me what it was you really wanted to communicate.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he told me, and I said, Oh, okay, well, this author hasn't done that at all.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like they've taken your idea and then run down a whole different path with it.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I would encourage you, sort of, you know, okay, let's rework it, let's rewrite it so that it actually says what you want it to say.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And in the future, let me encourage you to read what they've written because it's going out in your name.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't imagine releasing a book with my name on the cover that I didn't know the content, the content quite intimately, right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it happens all the time.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't want to get up and give a speech on the back of that book if I didn't know what was in the book intimately.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: It happens so often in the ghostwriting world, doesn't it?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it doesn't on my projects, uh, because you know, that's not the kind of books that I want to be involved with.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I, you know, I don't want somebody uh who's you know gonna call me up and say, well, I need a 25,000-word book on topic X uh because I'm getting ready to launch a side business on that topic.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you know about that topic?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, nothing.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just do some research.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, no, that's not a project I'm going to get involved with.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's not uh that's not going to be a good book for one thing.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's not going to, it's it's really not going to serve the reader.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I want books where the author has something meaningful to say and they really want to make the reader's life better, and they want to work very closely with somebody who's good at that uh to make sure that they can touch the reader's lives.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully, yeah, uh any of the folks who come to you and any of the folks who are listening to your podcast understand that that's, you know, if if you're going to invest uh whatever time, money, emotion, blood, sweat, and tears that are going to go into a book that you you really want to touch people's lives.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Carol, this has been a blast.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, gosh, I feel like I could talk to you forever because we have so much in common.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I love your perspective on writing and ghostwriting and marketing.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: You bring a humanity and an empathy and a an intelligence and wisdom to this whole process.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: And all of those are so critical.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and sometimes in this in this world, those are elements that are missing, just because so many people want to just get a book out there fast or they want shortcuts and and whatnot.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: But boy, taking taking the the long way around, doing a good job, doing the hard work, that is that's where it's at.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I appreciate you bringing this much needed perspective to books and goals and uh and all this fun stuff.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: So um let us know how we can get in touch with you.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, how where can listeners find you and find out more about all the cool things that you're doing?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: I love connecting with people on LinkedIn.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do encourage folks, please, you know, uh connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's Carolyn Roark.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and if you're curious, there are a few of us out there.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the one who's a ghostwriter living in Santa Fe, New Mexico, you know, so I should be pretty easy to identify.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you can also find me via my website, which is writingtexan.com.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's w-r-i-t-i-n-g, writing, t-e-x-a-n dot com.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So not not like writing is in the cavalry.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um in Texas, it could be either one.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: It could be, yes.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yes, and I'd I'd love to connect with with people in either of those ways.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've had a great time.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it again sometime.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about something else fun.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's a million things that we could talk about for sure.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Carolyn, thanks again.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I really appreciate you making time to come on the show today.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: This has been a blast.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've enjoyed it thoroughly.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: Hope you enjoyed my conversation with Carolyn.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: Wasn't that fun?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, she is just so smart about all this, and I just love her perspective on things.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's kind of rare to meet people in your life who have an equal sense of kindness and empathy and um the ability to really relate with people, but also have a very sharp sense of business and strategy and um lots of intelligence.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really, really fun whenever I get to talk to Carolyn because she blends both of those things.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I think that's kind of a rare skill, and maybe that's maybe that's uh one of the things that makes ghostwriters um such a vital force for a lot of people's businesses, is because it does require that blend of you know strategy and uh being detail oriented and and all that, but also you know, being highly empathetic and being able to listen to people and so forth.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: So this was a blast, and I hope that you enjoyed this.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: My biggest takeaway from this conversation is this, and I want to issue a challenge to you as kind of a way of issuing my takeaway, which is think about your big goals.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: What is it that you want in life?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: What is it that you want from your book?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: What is it that you want your book to help you do?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: When I sit down with clients, uh in terms of ghostwriting and also my book coaching, I always spend a lot of time on this question because I want to have a clear sense of what is it that this person wants from this book?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: Why are they doing this?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, ghostwriting is time consuming for me, it's expensive for the clients, and you know, I want them to get a lot of value out of this.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's really no point in just writing a book or creating something and throwing it out there into the world because you think you should be doing it for some reason.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: But there is a lot of reason to do it if you think it's gonna add value to you and your business, if you think it's gonna serve people well or get your story out there.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: So think about what is it that you want from this?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: What is your big goal?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you get clear on that, the process gets way, way easier and it eliminates a lot of options and helps you focus on the ones that can really help you get whatever that goal is.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: Your goal might be building your business, your goal might be telling your story, it might be connecting with people, um, it might be promoting something specific, whatever it is.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: The book can get you more of what you want, but you've got to get clear on what that is.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I want to give a huge thanks to Carolyn for being a guest on this podcast.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: And again, it's so much fun every time I get to talk to her.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: I want to encourage you to check out her website, which is writingtexan.com.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's writingtexan t-sh.com, which is just a really, really cool name for a website.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: So make sure and check that out and connect with Carolyn.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_03: This has been a blast.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening to today's episode, and I will see you next time.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: I want to take a moment to let you know about our daily writer membership community.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're tired of feeling isolated and chasing success on your own, then I know you're gonna love the Daily Writer community.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: For years, I searched for the kind of writing community that I would want to join.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I can never find what I wanted, so I created my own.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: Some of the features include weekly writing sprints, monthly community calls, book discussions, calls with guest experts, and much more.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: For more info, you can visit dailywriterlife.comslash community.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.