Latest / Loud & Lifted / Workplace Betrayal: How to Spot It, Set Boundaries, and Come Back Stronger (with Kristen Pucci)

Transcript

Workplace Betrayal: How to Spot It, Set Boundaries, and Come Back Stronger (with Kristen Pucci) · Loud & Lifted

0:00
Welcome to Loud and Lifted. I'm your host, Betsy
0:02
Hamm. Today's episode is one we've been wanting
0:04
to have for a while. It's honest, it's vulnerable,
0:06
and it's long overdue. We're talking about betrayal,
0:10
how it shows up, why it hurts so deeply, and
0:12
what it teaches us about trust, growth, and leadership.
0:16
Joining me in person is Kristin Pucci, the powerhouse
0:19
behind Cray, an intentional female -founded agency
0:22
focused on brand and business alignment. Kristin
0:25
has built her career helping businesses stay
0:27
true to their values, even when it's hard. And
0:30
today, she's bringing that same honesty to this
0:32
conversation. We're diving into the messy moments,
0:35
those times when someone you trusted didn't show
0:37
up, they let you down or flat out worked against
0:40
you. From broken friendships, to workplace politics,
0:43
to being ghosted by women we thought were allies,
0:46
this episode unpacks what betrayal really looks
0:48
like and how to rise from it without becoming
0:51
hardened. So whether you've been burned, you're
0:54
healing, or you're wondering how to keep showing
0:56
up without losing yourself, this one's for you.
0:59
Let's get loud, let's get lifted, and let's get
1:02
real. Welcome to Loud and Lifted, Kristin Pucci.
1:13
I mean, I guess I should say thank you for having
1:15
us since we are actually here in your studio
1:17
for Create Creative. So thank you for hosting
1:19
us for Loud and Lifted. Thank you so much. I'm
1:22
so excited to be here. We just connected a couple
1:24
weeks ago. Yes. And it was so fun kind of talking
1:28
about the different topics and things like that.
1:30
So I hope people will like this topic. I haven't
1:33
listened to all your past episodes, but I've
1:34
seen your recent ones. So I'm hopeful people
1:37
will like what we talk about. We both like to
1:37
talk, so this could be really good. Or really
1:40
long. Or really long. It might be four parts.
1:41
It'll be a four -part podcast. Yeah, for sure.
1:44
So it's funny because after just our brief initial
1:46
conversation, I was like, gosh, I feel like I've
1:48
known you. We have a lot in common. You are an
1:50
entrepreneur. You started your own business.
1:52
And as we were talking about how this could tie
1:54
into Loud and Lifted and our platform, you threw
1:56
out a big word that you said, I would love to
1:58
talk about this. And that big word was betrayal.
2:01
And it wasn't related to talking about Love Island
2:04
or whatever, right? Sorry, I have teenagers that
2:07
are watching that, and you know all the betrayal
2:09
that goes on in these reality shows. But with
2:12
women in the workplace, and you said that, and
2:14
I was like, oh. Oh, that's a great word. Because
2:17
loud and lifted started with wanting to uplift
2:20
women and support each other, because oftentimes
2:22
we don't. And one of the times we don't is when
2:24
we use that big or happen to do that big B word
2:28
of betrayal. So let's get into it. And I think,
2:32
first of all, just so everyone's on the same
2:33
page, how do you define betrayal, especially
2:36
in a relationship workplace standpoint? Yeah.
2:39
So when I was doing Just research and just reflecting
2:43
on my own experience with betrayal. I was like,
2:47
okay What does it really feel like and how could
2:50
how can it be? How could it make the most people
2:54
understand it from a female perspective and I
2:56
feel like what it is is it's giving the Perception
2:58
that I am for you while actively working against
3:01
you. Oh, yes. That's good. And I think that's
3:04
the if I could Think about all of my reflection
3:08
of whether it's personal friendships and professional
3:10
friendships. It's always been a female either
3:13
like, you know, subordinate or somebody, you
3:16
know, that I reported to or somebody of equal
3:18
that just they seemed like they were on my team.
3:22
They would give this impression that they were
3:24
and then I would find out that they weren't either
3:27
very slowly with like putting little, you know,
3:31
pieces together or it would be some major event
3:33
that was like. Wow, you really put this together.
3:39
You really spent some time on this. It was intentional.
3:41
Yeah, you spent some time on this. So that would
3:43
be my definition. That's a great example. Yeah.
3:47
And something else, just when I course, I was
3:48
kind of doing my little research on it, because
3:49
it's something you don't. I mean, we've all experienced
3:51
it, right? We've been on the other side of that.
3:53
But it said about it being a violation of trust.
3:55
And I was like, ooh, violation is a good word.
3:57
Because to your point, we know there's people
4:00
who aren't supportive of us and maybe aren't.
4:02
work friends or whatever and you kind of expect
4:04
some bad behavior but that the betrayal part
4:06
is when you thought somebody really was you're
4:08
on your side in your quarter you're a cheerleader
4:10
and then suddenly something happens and you're
4:13
betrayed and there's that violation of trust
4:15
well they actively deceived you too right like
4:17
and i think that's the hard part is when after
4:19
the portion of being betrayed and i agree with
4:21
you on the trust part there's the trust with
4:23
them but you also lose the trust in yourself
4:25
right because you're like what did i not see
4:27
how did i not pick up on this like or the worst
4:30
case is that you did see something and you ignored
4:34
it because as humans, I think we want to, I mean,
4:36
we don't naturally, I think, think the best of
4:38
people, but we want to think the best of people.
4:40
So we like saw something and we're like, wow,
4:42
that didn't really feel good. You got a little
4:43
dig at work and you're like, why'd she do that?
4:44
Maybe she was just having a bad day. And then
4:46
it's another dig, another dig. And so I just
4:48
think it's the trust in yourself that gets worn
4:51
down too. And then you look at everybody around,
4:54
but yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot with,
4:57
uh, with violating trust. Yeah. And there's the
5:00
whole sabotage, or backstabbing, or gossiping.
5:03
And that's a big part, I think, of the betrayal.
5:05
But then there's also that passive betrayal,
5:07
where maybe someone didn't stick up for you,
5:10
or they let a rumor go around you, or whatever
5:14
it is. So it's kind of like that really intentional
5:16
betrayal. And then sometimes it's just when someone
5:18
doesn't have your back, or doesn't stand up for
5:20
you in the workforce. And I don't know exactly
5:23
where you want to go with this, but I through
5:26
like sitting down and I had, I was gonna initially
5:29
come with stories because that's like my thing
5:32
as a company is like telling stories. But then
5:36
I was like, we could be here for a long time.
5:39
And I think because of this topic, it's one of
5:42
those topics to me that like a story, why is
5:45
the purpose of me telling that story, right?
5:47
I'm like. To show that I've been betrayed everybody's
5:50
been betrayed right right and I was like okay
5:52
I don't think stories matter and I also just
5:54
to be very Transparent people would probably
5:56
figure out who I'm talking about if I did and
5:59
like that's not the point of this podcast And
6:01
that's not the point of where I am now. I feel
6:04
like the point of where I am is that like I When
6:09
you go through certain things I it's very close
6:11
to my heart now to be what I needed and to give
6:14
my younger self the tools I didn't have to go
6:17
through what I did go through. And it doesn't
6:20
even have to be somebody younger than me. If
6:21
it's somebody that's an executive and they've
6:24
been dealing with this forever, but they've never
6:25
heard this concept before, I was sitting there
6:28
and I was researching it all and I was like,
6:29
okay, how do all these stories align? Where does
6:34
the betrayal come from? What's happening in the
6:36
betrayer? So if you're okay, I have five categories
6:40
that I came up with. And then what I did is I
6:43
broke them down by the behavior that I saw that
6:46
probably could have tipped me off to it earlier,
6:48
but I didn't know it yet. So I have jealousy.
6:52
So to be clear, this is what's in the betrayer,
6:54
what's happening inside the betrayer. So jealousy,
6:57
insecurity, unhealed wounds, scarcity mindset,
7:01
and then the desire for power and validation.
7:05
If you're okay, I want to kind of unpack them
7:07
because I think it's really interesting and it's
7:09
kind of scary and you're probably going to shake
7:11
your head like because you've got, I imagine
7:12
you've gone through many of these, you've been
7:14
in executive roles, you've worked your way up.
7:15
I know that you've been through this. One is
7:18
jealousy. So what this is what they're thinking
7:21
inside, whether or not they're self -aware or
7:24
not, they're thinking, I want to be where you
7:26
are. You remind me of who I could have been.
7:30
You're living out something I abandoned in myself.
7:34
And what that could look like is behavior in
7:36
the workplace. They dismiss your accomplishments.
7:40
They're overly praising you in public, but then
7:42
they avoid you in private. They undermine you
7:45
in group settings to feel superior. And then
7:48
the next one would be insecurity. People like
7:51
her more than me. She's too much. I need to remind
7:55
her of her place. Right. Yeah, that's fair. She
7:58
thinks she's better and I'll show her that she's
8:00
not Right. Yeah, what it looks like subtle digs
8:04
sarcasm jokes that are actually jabs. Yes. Oh,
8:07
yeah Why don't you think it was just a joke?
8:09
Yep. No Copying your ideas without credit. That's
8:13
why I don't know if you've experienced. Oh, yes
8:15
trying to assert dominance or control when you're
8:18
in some type of flow So did it so they throw
8:20
you off? Unhealed wounds everybody buckle up
8:26
We're triggering something in them. That's unhealed.
8:29
Hmm, right. So like you remind me of someone
8:32
who left me It could be childhood bullying That's
8:36
something that's taken so much more time for
8:38
me to like really settle in on is that like if
8:40
I'm triggering you and you're this Upset, it's
8:42
not me that's making you upset, right? Right.
8:44
So if you're pretty or popular or you're smarter
8:47
It might bring them back to childhood and they
8:49
were like this type of person hurt me. There's
8:51
this teenage bully Or there was this person,
8:54
I was on the math team and this other girl was
8:56
always smarter than me. She always, or it even
8:58
could be a sister. It could be competitiveness
9:01
and like childhood, but I'll betray them first
9:04
before, you know, it could be ghosting. It could
9:06
be whatever, scarcity mindset. This one, she
9:10
believes there's only one seat at the table.
9:12
I deal with this a lot as a subcontractor. I
9:14
don't know if you've, I imagine you have with
9:16
your own company. I feel like a lot of females,
9:19
if they're my main point of contact, that's not
9:22
the owner. Cause I feel like once you get to
9:24
the ownership place, you've been beaten up enough
9:27
and you've been humbled enough that I think you
9:28
don't really like hold onto a lot of these things,
9:30
but they still do. And I feel like when we come
9:33
in, I will know from that first meeting if it's
9:36
going to work out or it's not. Cause I'll hear
9:38
things like, well, I've been doing this for five
9:41
years or I've been doing this for 25 years or
9:44
well, I think this idea is better or I think,
9:46
and they undercut you. Interesting. Yeah. Have
9:48
you experienced that? Yeah, and it's funny when
9:50
you were saying that too, it made me think, you
9:52
would think when you're at a certain level, like
9:53
a CEO, right, of big companies, that then you
9:56
would kind of be a better supporter of other
9:58
women. But I certainly ran into, even in the
10:01
restaurant industry, where there were CEO women
10:02
who were older, older than me, who I thought,
10:05
oh, for sure, they're going to be great when
10:06
I reach out. And they just didn't really have
10:08
the time of day for me. And I don't know if this
10:11
is the real reason, but what made sense to me
10:13
was somebody said, because nobody helped them.
10:15
So they don't feel like they need to help other
10:17
people. So sort of like, well, no woman helped
10:19
me. So here, you know, kind of like you have
10:21
to go through what I went through to make it.
10:23
It's like it's like a rebrand of like hazing.
10:26
Yes. And it's like, OK, no, we need to turn the
10:29
tables. Like you didn't like it. You didn't like
10:31
it when you went through it. So why are you turning
10:33
around doing it to me? And I definitely would
10:34
agree with that. I think it's like the older
10:36
woman. And I'm not just strictly coming for that
10:38
generation, the younger generation. I'm coming.
10:40
Right. Right. But like the older it's like that
10:42
mother hen in the office. Right. Which I think
10:44
is. directly related to the scarcity mindset,
10:47
that there can be only one seat at the table.
10:49
There can only be one powerful woman here and
10:51
it has to be me. It's that like mother hen type
10:54
of mindset. And it's like, if she gets the spotlight,
10:57
I'm gonna disappear. I have to win, even if I
11:01
have to destroy her to do it. And it's like,
11:04
no, you don't. but that's coming from you have
11:07
this this mindset and this belief and i've experienced
11:10
this in work somebody will hoard information
11:12
or they'll like withhold resources from you so
11:14
you fail or it takes you 10 times as long or
11:17
oh i forgot to tell you about this right no you
11:20
didn't right you're purposely trying to destroy
11:23
me at a disadvantage and then the last one that
11:25
i have is that desire for power validation right
11:28
very strategic betrayal might not be as emotional
11:32
but it's like you're in my way Right. Of getting
11:35
where I want to go. Yep. They might align with
11:37
somebody who's more powerful than you. They might
11:39
use a relationship. This is one that I've experienced
11:41
is they use my name or my reputation or the relationship
11:45
with me to gain proximity to other people that
11:48
I might be associated to. Interesting. And then
11:50
they cut you out. Okay. So you're totally reused.
11:53
Yeah. So they bait you, right? They bait you.
11:55
That's a good word. They use you to get to where
11:58
they need to go and then they discard you. And
12:01
so I've experienced this and this might be like
12:04
something sucking up to superior speaking out
12:06
on your behalf or someone name dropping. Like,
12:08
unfortunately people will name drop to get into
12:12
a room. I imagine there's people in the restaurant
12:14
industry. Oh, I know Betsy. Yeah. You don't know
12:17
me. You met me one time, you know, and it could
12:19
go one way or the other. They could either use
12:21
it for you or they could use it against you.
12:24
So that's what I found. And I felt like that
12:27
hit almost every single story that I've. And
12:29
it's crazy because I always have to compare what
12:32
happens professionally to what happens when I
12:34
have two teenage daughters, right? And so many
12:36
of those things are starting when they're in
12:39
high school. And it's like, how do you stop that
12:41
now? And I'm very quick to call that stuff out
12:43
to making sure that my girls aren't doing it.
12:45
They're certainly not perfect. But it's like,
12:46
how do you stop that stuff earlier? And is it
12:49
just calling attention to it? Because again,
12:51
it's going to happen to everyone, right? We're
12:52
all going to be betrayed in some time of our
12:55
career. So how do we stop that when it's happening?
12:58
Do we make sure that we're not doing it? Or if
13:01
you're raising daughters or sons, that you're
13:03
teaching your kids the right way to approach
13:05
life, that you're not having them do it to people.
13:07
Well, and I think that's just going back to,
13:10
and I've been the savior way too much in my life,
13:12
and the fixer, and the I'm the one going to therapy,
13:15
and then I'll teach you everything I learned
13:16
from therapy. No, you need to go to therapy,
13:18
too. You know what I mean? I can't just go to
13:20
therapy and then fix everyone. But I think with
13:22
that, you just have to, my first thought when
13:25
you were talking about it is pierce that person's
13:27
heart. in some way. Like I remember if I could
13:29
go back to being a little girl or just even other
13:34
circumstances like you being so healed and healthy
13:38
that you can see that person for what they're
13:40
actually doing instead of seeing them as like
13:41
they're being mean to me or they're being whatever.
13:44
I remember and as a child you don't really have
13:46
that level of like awareness or the 10 ,000 foot
13:49
view of the situation that's going on. It's like
13:51
when they would say, oh, he's bullying you on
13:53
the playground because he likes you. You know,
13:55
he's pulling your hair because he wants attention
13:57
from you. He thinks you're cute. Imagine like
13:59
if there's people that are genuinely walking
14:01
around on this earth that are still believing
14:02
that as adults, right? So it's, I think as adults,
14:06
we have to like pour into our children and just
14:08
go, this is what this actually means. And like,
14:11
it's so hard to set our pride aside and not want
14:14
to seek revenge on that person, but to just be
14:17
like, Hey, you said this to me and like are you
14:22
okay, right? People don't usually meet people
14:25
with that. They meet with revenge They meet with
14:27
wanting to come back and being like you hurt
14:28
me I'm gonna pay it's an eye for eye like we
14:30
live we live in an eye for an eye culture It's
14:32
like you punched me. I'm gonna punch you back,
14:34
right, but it's like, okay, let's It's harder
14:36
to do the love piece, but I think that's what
14:39
probably would turn this around, because these
14:41
people, they're hurting. They're walking around
14:44
and they're hurting, and that's why they're hurting
14:45
other people. So let's dive into that a little
14:47
bit more, because that's a great point. So when
14:49
it happens, right? Because it happens to everyone.
14:51
How do we handle that? What's the best way where
14:54
you're at work, somebody betrays you, you know
14:55
it. It's obvious. What do we do? Ugh. What have
15:01
I done? Sometimes it's more of what we think
15:05
we should have said or done. Well, I think it's
15:07
hard depending on who it is. If it's somebody
15:09
that's that you are managing, that's going to
15:13
be easier to navigate because they naturally
15:15
are looking at you as a mentor, as a whatever.
15:18
And like, I think it would probably be easier
15:20
to speak into that person because they are naturally
15:22
looking to you for guidance. Yeah. So I could
15:24
picture myself if you had an employee that's
15:29
just giving characteristics or they just appear
15:31
to be insecure, right? Because if you could,
15:33
if you could, it's not like somebody just decides
15:35
in 24 hours that they're going to betray you,
15:37
right? Like these are things that are, they feed
15:39
this envy giant, right? Do you remember that
15:42
Berenstein Bears book that was like the little
15:43
kid turned green? Do you remember that book?
15:46
Yeah. So I just, I don't know why I just thought
15:48
about that, but it's like they literally, the
15:49
one bear turned green and it's like, she fed
15:51
this little envy green monster. And it's so true
15:55
that like, if you sit there and you feed that,
15:56
you're going to create this narrative at work.
15:58
That's like, she, she sent me that email because
16:01
she hates me. Right. And like, you just keep
16:04
creating this narrative. So it does, it's not
16:05
like a 24 hour thing. So I think if you see that
16:08
somebody's like doing some of these behaviors,
16:13
you're like, Hey, that's our job as leaders.
16:15
Right. to be like, Hey, you okay? Yeah. What's
16:18
going on? How can I help you? What can I do?
16:21
You know, and like share that love with them.
16:23
Now, if it's above you, that's the part that
16:27
I don't know that there's very much that you
16:29
can do about that because I am a major proponent
16:32
of I have done the wrong thing many times that
16:34
I tried to fix that person. I remember in past
16:37
roles, I would try to meet with them. I would
16:38
try to be nice to them. I would try to, and I
16:40
think that when it's like the authority figure,
16:43
is the one that's trying to betray you. I had
16:46
a, I will tell a story since we're here. I worked
16:49
at a company. I'm not going to be specific. So
16:51
it'd be very obvious as to who it was, but I
16:52
worked at a company that I had a female boss.
16:54
I had a male boss and then pivoted into a female
16:56
boss. And I very quickly started going up the
17:01
ranks. And I knew that this woman, because she
17:03
just, she was very like, it's so funny that she
17:07
gave the perception of being very female, supporting
17:11
whatever it's like, but she would take a woman
17:13
out as quickly as she could. Right. And I knew
17:16
that she had like just had a baby and she had
17:18
communicated with us and the team that she was
17:19
struggling with her body and she was struggling,
17:21
you know, she had all these different things
17:21
going on. She was, because she went on maternity
17:24
leave, you know, she wasn't doing as well with
17:27
her commissions. And like there was, I knew she
17:29
just wasn't in a good place. Right. She wasn't
17:31
in a good place. But me being the person that
17:33
reported to her, what am I supposed to do with
17:35
that? Right. Right. But then me, because I'm
17:37
not the one having the baby. I'm not the one
17:39
doing it. And I'm young. I'm like, well, 15 years
17:41
younger than her, right? So my commission's still
17:44
going up. I'm doing work. And then I just became
17:48
the target. And what are you going to do in that
17:52
situation? What are you going to do? I can't
17:53
remove my boss. And unfortunately, HR teams,
17:57
sorry. They're not necessarily there for the
18:01
employees. They're there to protect the company.
18:03
And if you're a good HR person, great. But I
18:06
just, that's been my experience. I just think
18:08
they're there to protect the company. So what
18:09
do you need to do? Go to HR? I did go to HR.
18:12
Yeah, that's hard. The only other option is really
18:14
is if depending on like the structure of the
18:16
company if there was somebody like at that level
18:18
or above you that you could have kind of just
18:20
created a relationship from like a sponsorship
18:22
standpoint like where you had somebody who was
18:24
sort of had your back or was gonna stick up for
18:26
you like if in you know certain meetings or conversations
18:29
where your boss didn't. Or just get a new manager.
18:32
Try to figure out how you can get a new manager.
18:33
Yeah, and that's hard. Yeah, it's hard to do
18:35
if you're at a small company like if it's the
18:38
owner. you're out of luck right you gotta go
18:40
somewhere else time to move on yeah but like
18:42
yeah i think like an advocate would be good finding
18:44
a buddy i think would be smart somebody that
18:46
knows that what's going on because guys it can
18:49
turn into like depending on this person's heart
18:51
it can turn into a very scary situation very
18:53
quickly like there's people that can go in management
18:56
left unchecked and it can turn into retaliation,
19:00
it can turn into revenge, it can turn, it can
19:02
really mess up your career, right? And so you
19:05
def, I think that's great advice, finding if
19:06
you're younger in the office and somebody of
19:08
authority is doing this to you, find somebody
19:09
else who's also of authority that maybe you could
19:11
talk to, you can listen to. And it doesn't mean
19:13
you go tell on them. No, it's not, you're not
19:15
telling, you're trying to go like, hey, I've
19:18
noticed something and I can't do my best work
19:21
in the circumstances that I'm in. And a true
19:24
company and a true leader would hear that and
19:26
go, Understood. My job as a leader here is to
19:29
make sure that I remove every obstacle for you
19:31
to be able to do your job well. Right. That's
19:33
my job. So if that person then doesn't do anything
19:36
about it or help you, unfortunately, you need
19:38
to face that harsh reality of, okay, I probably
19:41
don't need to be here anymore. Right. Yeah, because
19:43
you can only try to build so much credibility
19:44
and trust and respect with others. I mean, I
19:47
definitely was in that situation where I was
19:48
like, OK, let me figure out how I can have other
19:49
key relationships with people who are respected.
19:52
That I can build my credibility and my trust,
19:54
and they'll respect me. That then when I am getting
19:56
thrown under the bus, it's like, wait, no, I
19:59
haven't seen that. I think she's great. Just
20:00
having other people who have your back, I think,
20:03
is really the only other way around it too. And
20:06
you think, by the way, you think she's great
20:07
because she doesn't see you as a threat. That's
20:10
why she thinks you're great, and that's why you're
20:12
great. you've been treated well because she didn't
20:13
see you as a threat. And it's just sad, like
20:15
even in my recruiting experience, how many times
20:18
I would hear, I would get the calls from, you
20:20
know, mostly women, which I would be curious
20:22
if men, you know, and if people comment on this.
20:24
I'd be curious if men experience this the way
20:26
women do. I don't think they do. Maybe that's
20:27
where we can go. According to the research, because
20:29
I was curious about that. I didn't do any of
20:31
that research. I was hoping you did. Yeah, because
20:32
I just, I remember back recruiting and it would
20:34
be these women that were just like, it's the,
20:36
you know. The it would be the especially essential
20:40
PA my gosh You would have like a husband and
20:42
wife duo running the company and it's like, okay
20:44
If the only place for you to go next would be
20:46
the wife's job Yeah, she's you know, yeah, what
20:50
do you do? So let's yeah, let's go There's a
20:52
little bit of information about like the gender
20:54
dynamics and it was that women not that men don't
20:57
do this at all certainly not the case but women
20:59
do it more and they do it because We tend to
21:01
be more insecure more jealous more confidence
21:03
issues. So we just have that drive, essentially,
21:07
to do it more often. And then the other piece,
21:09
which totally makes sense, is that if a man would
21:11
do that to another man, they're more likely to
21:13
confront the person and call them out and be
21:15
like, dude, what the hell are you doing? So it
21:17
kind of like shuts down that behavior. So it's
21:19
like we almost have the quote reasons or the
21:21
drive to do it more often. And then when guys
21:24
do do it, they call it out versus women. Maybe
21:27
we just cower. We're just, yeah. I wonder if
21:30
it's primal. Like as you were sitting there and
21:33
saying that, I'm wondering if it's primal, because
21:35
I think that's just where everything goes back.
21:36
It's just like how we're wild as humans, right?
21:38
If you think about like the masculine and the
21:40
feminine, right? Like if we go back to when we
21:42
were like beginning of times, not saying this
21:45
is how it's supposed to be, I want to be clear,
21:46
this is cut the wrong way, it's not what I'm
21:48
saying. But at the beginning of times, right,
21:50
men are biologically created to be protectors,
21:52
providers, and whatever. Women are meant to be
21:56
having babies, hunters and gatherers, taking
21:58
care of the kids and family, things like that
22:00
at home. Like my therapist always says there's
22:02
a healthy amount of jealousy because it keeps
22:03
the family together, right? From a male perspective,
22:06
you must stay away from my woman, stay away from
22:08
my man, right? It keeps the family, but then
22:09
there's like the next level. So I'm almost wondering
22:12
if it's because women have now been in the workforce
22:14
for however long that they've been in, that that
22:18
dynamic is something very, it's more challenging.
22:22
for them yeah right because if we were like in
22:24
our little teepees or our little huts or our
22:26
little you know whatever it is in our little
22:28
tribes we would have men that are only working
22:31
with men and you would have the women that's
22:33
only working with women but the fact that we've
22:34
like coexisted these men and these women i think
22:37
like women want to Biologically, I believe this.
22:42
I think they want to submit to men, and I think
22:44
they want men to take over and lead, and they
22:47
want to go, but I think women, because we're
22:50
biologically created to be with one person over
22:53
a significant period of time, I think this workplace
22:55
thing is messing with us. I don't know, I never
22:59
thought about it that way. I'm not a scientist,
23:00
but as I was sitting there, I'm literally picturing
23:02
in my mind all these little... And from a safety
23:05
perspective, it's not safe to have a new female
23:09
come in. Right. Have you ever worked on a team
23:11
of all women? Right now. Right now. Right now,
23:16
minus my dad, yes. Let me think. I don't think
23:18
that I have. I've worked very male -dominated
23:21
roles. I'm trying to think. Only right now. OK.
23:23
And do you notice, well, especially if you've
23:26
dealt... You can ask me the hard questions. Well,
23:27
no, I was going to say if you've dealt a lot,
23:28
especially in men, what's the difference of being
23:30
in a group of women? Versus like when you work
23:33
with mostly men. So here's would be my perspective
23:36
because I and I joke about this all the time
23:39
I didn't purposely hire all women. It just kind
23:40
of is the way that yeah Yeah, like, you know,
23:42
and I think marketing naturally is gravity. Yes
23:44
towards females totally But I had a team of like
23:47
nine women. I was like eight or nine I don't
23:49
remember how we had but it was a lot and I really
23:53
I made sure as a female leader, knowing what
23:57
are the very real realities of having a group
23:59
of females work together, I specifically did
24:02
things to make sure that we bonded, we didn't
24:05
see each other as threats. We have so much power
24:07
as leaders to prevent things like this happening
24:09
in the workplace. One major thing, and you've
24:12
probably experienced this before, a new person
24:14
just gets hired. Management doesn't tell you
24:17
why they've been hired, what their role is, what
24:18
they're supposed to be doing. And maybe they're
24:20
doing something a little bit like what you're
24:21
doing, right? Picture like you being in your
24:23
younger career. You're in social media and marketing.
24:26
They just hired Janelle, and now she's in social
24:29
media marketing too. What would you think, probably?
24:31
No one's told you why she was hired. Oh yeah,
24:33
I've heard that happen. Yeah, and what did you
24:34
think? You're like, oh, they're done with me.
24:36
They want me out. Exactly, right? When really,
24:38
if leadership actually got ahead of it, it was
24:40
just like, hey, Betsy, I just want to let you
24:41
know, we're killing it in this department. You're
24:43
absolutely, but we're noticing that. You got
24:45
a lot of work on your plate. So we actually we're
24:48
gonna go ahead We're gonna hire somebody else.
24:50
She's gonna be in charge of this You're gonna
24:51
be in charge of that and we need you guys to
24:53
work together as a team because we want you to
24:54
work Well together long term and we see a lot
24:57
of opportunity for growth and even adding more
24:58
members in the future Wouldn't that probably
25:00
taking you off your right? It comes under but
25:02
they don't do that, right? So I think these whether
25:05
it's a male leader a female leader They're not
25:07
taking the primal or whatever the very real realities
25:10
of how women work and catering to it. Yeah Because
25:14
if someone said that to you, you probably would
25:16
have felt a lot better. That's fair. People have
25:17
done that to me. Right. And it does. It makes
25:19
you think like, are they... We fill the gray
25:23
area. We're like... Is that because I'm not doing
25:25
my job well? Sure. Is she coming in and then
25:27
you're going to get rid of me? Is she replacing
25:28
me? There's all these da -da -da -da -da -da
25:30
what ifs. It's from a place of safety. Women
25:31
are constantly scanning if we're safe. That's
25:33
a moment you're not safe. No, that's true. And
25:35
that kind of all goes back to, I don't want to
25:38
say the root of the issue because we're the root
25:39
of the issue, but it goes back to the culture
25:42
and the leadership and what's tolerated because
25:44
I've certainly been in corporate situations where
25:47
bad behavior was tolerated. So if you were betraying
25:50
somebody, if you didn't communicate that they're
25:52
hiring just to to expand the department, not
25:54
to take you out, it came back to the culture
25:57
and that kind of stuff being allowed to happen
26:00
where communication was shitty or the leadership
26:02
was shitty and people treated each other like
26:04
crap and it was just kind of people looked the
26:06
other way or didn't act like it happened. And
26:08
that's what tears down organizations. That what
26:11
makes you not productive. That makes the good
26:12
people leave, right? Because if you are... good
26:15
quality respected person you're gonna be like
26:17
okay forget this like this is not worth my pain
26:19
and suffering i'm out so i mean that literally
26:21
tears down organizations and it gets rid of the
26:24
good people so it goes back to establishing that
26:27
from the very top and at every level and holding
26:29
people accountable there's there's going to be
26:31
bad behavior but it has to be addressed and if
26:34
it's tolerated then there's probably that opportunity
26:37
to look for another job, if you can. Yeah. And
26:40
I think, too, just as you were talking, I remember
26:42
hearing something the other day. It was just
26:44
about how, like, as a man, the video was like,
26:48
as a man, you can't be scared of your wife's
26:50
emotions. But I think you could take the exact
26:52
same thing and put it into the workplace. As
26:54
a male leader, you can't be afraid or avoidant
26:58
of the female period. or her emotions, or how
27:02
she handles things, or how she navigates things.
27:04
If you seriously, you either have daughters,
27:07
you have a wife, you know what they do. Are you
27:10
kidding me? You know what they do. You know what
27:12
an insecure wife does. She makes your life a
27:14
living hell. It's right? Literally, men are the,
27:18
what is it? They say that women are the temperature
27:21
and then men are the thermostat. I think that's
27:23
something what it is. So like if it's hot in
27:24
here. What do you got going on brother? That's
27:27
like making it this way So I really would say
27:30
and I'm just saying because we're in central
27:32
PA and typically men are in those higher authority
27:34
issues You cannot be scared of the female and
27:37
the female emotions like you need to be able
27:40
to hit those head -on address them Accountability
27:42
and go no, we're not playing this game, right?
27:45
Right, but be when you're scared of it. You avoid
27:48
it. You let it go unchecked and then it just
27:50
yeah And like you're saying, it creates this
27:52
toxic work environment. Like it's just, it's
27:55
really, it's really, really sad. And I think
27:57
the same thing would happen for women who don't
27:58
want to address male behaviors. But obviously
28:00
we're just talking about, you know, women. But
28:02
I think that's a very real thing too, is I think
28:04
there's a lot of men that are very scared of
28:06
women and working with women and the way we are
28:09
emotionally that they're like. Husbands do that.
28:11
Sure. Oh, yeah. Boyfriends do that. Brothers
28:13
and sisters do that. They're like, I don't want
28:15
to deal with it. I'm not like that. And that's
28:17
great. I wish we were a little less emotional
28:18
maybe sometimes. But yeah, they have to be able
28:21
to deal with it and address it. And they don't.
28:23
And I think that's why this type of stuff is
28:25
so rampant. And you can't be afraid of, it's
28:28
like they're so fearful of, and I've seen it
28:31
with my employees with where they worked before
28:33
and they've told me or even things that I've
28:35
experienced. There's like, There's mother hens
28:39
at those work environments that ruined it for
28:41
a players, right? Because they have this threat
28:44
of there can only be one right your whole organization
28:48
should be filled with Incredible male female
28:50
this that you all demographics But if you have
28:53
these people that are just so insecure and it's
28:55
everything's mine and it's a horde horde horde
28:57
horde Okay, then you will have that company It'll
29:00
just be that person and whoever that person doesn't
29:01
see is a threat. So that's gonna be employees
29:03
that suck They're miserable don't have good personalities.
29:06
They're not attractive like right You're gonna
29:08
have an employee a group of losers working for
29:10
you because Jen from wherever hates everybody
29:14
sure. Oh totally No, it's frustrating. So if
29:18
we try to leave this on a positive note, right?
29:20
And again, we're all going to face this. We've
29:22
all faced this. I'm sure everybody listening
29:24
to this has had this happen. It's going to happen
29:26
in the future, right? So how do we continue to
29:29
move forward? And we're not going to fix the
29:32
insecurity, jealousy issues that mostly women
29:35
have that they do this. So what do we do ourselves
29:37
to be able to? deal with betrayal when it does
29:39
happen or maybe avoid it i don't know sometimes
29:42
maybe it's avoidable yeah i would say so how
29:44
i deal how i would deal with it right now i'm
29:48
currently experiencing significant betrayal i've
29:51
experienced significant betrayals my entire career
29:53
and i've got to say guys like you're gonna get
29:56
that temptation to want to seek revenge and come
29:59
after them and be like that's not the truth let
30:01
me tell you what really happened it doesn't matter
30:03
it literally doesn't matter does not matter and
30:07
I know that that temptation is there to speak
30:09
your truth and say what really happened and tell
30:12
people this and get it like Roll over I almost
30:14
picture it is like if there's like drama It's
30:16
like a pig rolling around in mud, right? And
30:18
then there's another pig that walks over and
30:20
is like I'm gonna roll around with you And it's
30:22
like you're just the kind of like you if you
30:23
want to be a little pig, too You can whatever
30:25
and you're sitting on the outside and you're
30:26
looking at these people rolling in mud and you
30:28
do you have a choice of whether or not you want
30:30
to roll around the mud and What I would advise
30:33
is it's tempting It would feel good. Your body
30:36
thinks it would feel good, but it's not going
30:39
to benefit you professionally, personally, or
30:41
anything at all. Now, as a leader, what I would
30:43
advise is stop ignoring the very true and real
30:47
things about human behavior. If you want to be
30:50
in leadership, you need to understand not just
30:53
the management, the things that we need to accomplish
30:56
on a timeline. You also need to recognize that
30:58
you are managing and you're leading people. And
31:01
they have pros, they have cons, they have flaws,
31:04
they are envious, they are jealous, they are
31:06
happy, they are sad, there are all these different
31:07
things. And you need to manage people as the
31:10
whole person, not just act like this whole other
31:13
thing isn't existing. Your job as a leader is
31:16
to protect your organization, lead your people,
31:18
have them be excited and happy about what they're
31:20
doing. And if you allow behaviors like this to
31:22
happen, you're not doing your job. So that's
31:25
how I would respond. What about you? No, I agree
31:28
with everything you said. And I think, again,
31:29
it's kind of that balance of identifying when
31:31
it happens and figuring out how you can move
31:33
past it. And it's probably not rebuilding the
31:35
relationship with that person. But you've got
31:37
to protect your peace. You've got to set boundaries.
31:40
So making sure you're doing that and continuing
31:41
to move forward. And then, to your point, don't
31:43
seek revenge. That just becomes the spiral. But
31:47
you've got to figure out how you can hold others
31:49
accountable, too, even if it's peers or people
31:51
below you. And it's being in that environment.
31:54
And if it's the environment issue, if you're
31:57
at a business or a company that that's tolerated,
31:59
then I think that's when you really do have to
32:00
take a hard look at, do I really want to be here?
32:02
Do I want to be part of this if bad behavior
32:04
is consistently tolerated at your organization?
32:07
Yeah, tolerated. That's so good. And I had one
32:09
more thing that I wanted to make sure is advice,
32:12
I guess, that I would give is that most betrayal
32:15
isn't about you. It's about them not knowing
32:18
what to do with themselves in the presence of
32:20
you. Ooh, that's really good. You know what I
32:23
mean? Yeah, because it really is never about
32:25
you. It's not about you. It's that person's problem,
32:27
not your problem. There's something about you
32:29
that is making them very uncomfortable with themselves.
32:33
And the earlier and when you're young in your
32:36
career, you don't know that yet. You just are
32:38
like, do you hate me? Do you not like me? Like,
32:40
what? Why are you treating me this way? Especially
32:42
when it's your first job. I mean, my gosh, you
32:43
have no previous experience. And there's so many
32:46
toxic work environments. But the quicker that
32:47
you can realize that this doesn't have anything
32:49
to do with you, And it's that person, which is
32:52
so, so hard. Trust me, it is hard. I think you'll
32:55
navigate it better in the future. Love that.
32:58
Good. Thank you. Thank you so much for being
33:00
part of Loud and Lifted. And thanks for hosting
33:01
us in your podcast studio. And people want to
33:04
find out more information on you and Cray. Where
33:05
can they find you? I would say find me on LinkedIn.
33:08
Kristin Ray Pucci, R -A -E -P -U -C -C -I. Kristin
33:12
Ray Pucci on LinkedIn. Connect with me there,
33:13
and that'll take you to everywhere else you need
33:15
to go. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you.
33:17
Thanks. Thank you so much to Kristen for not
33:19
only hosting us at her studio but for showing
33:21
up with honesty Vulnerability and strength and
33:24
for digging into what so many women have experienced
33:26
But we rarely talk about if this episode stirred
33:30
something in you You're not alone the string
33:32
of broken trust is real, but it doesn't define
33:34
your future Whether you're healing rebuilding
33:37
or reflecting on how to show up better for others
33:39
Remember we get to choose who we become so let's
33:43
choose to lift If this conversation resonated
33:46
with you, please share it with another woman
33:47
who needs to hear it. Follow Loud and Lifted
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review. It helps more women find this community.
33:54
Until next time, stay loud, stay lifted and keep
33:57
showing up fully for yourself.