Latest / ChangeMakers with Katie Goar / Episode 138: Amy Ginger, National Leased Housing Association & Fairfax County Government

Transcript

Episode 138: Amy Ginger, National Leased Housing Association & Fairfax County Government · ChangeMakers with Katie Goar

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: This is Change Makers with Katie Gore finding the right
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: solutions for the affordable housing community.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: This week's change Maker is Amy Ginger, the Deputy Director
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: of Operations at the Fairfax County Government in Fairfax, Virginia.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: She's also the president.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Of the board at National Leased Housing Association. Amy has
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: more than twenty five years of experience everything from a
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: local government to HUD So Amy, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Katie. It's an absolute pleasure to
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: be here with you today.
• 0:41
  Speaker 5: I'm so excited.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to have you as well.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: And we have known each other for several decades and
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I am honored that you are.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: On the podcast.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: And I know many many of our listeners are going
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: to have a name recognition, voice recognition and now in
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: your own world of wisdom recognition.
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we have known each other a real long time.
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: We had the great fortune of working at the same
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: organization together many years ago, although we were both in
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: you were in a different role, but I certainly remember
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: watching you from afar thinking Wow, what an impressive leader
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: she is, What an impressive woman she is, what an impressive.
• 1:21
  Speaker 5: Mother she is. So it's truly a pleasure to have
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: known you for so long.
• 1:25
  Speaker 6: It is kind of funny because we talk in terms
• 1:28
  Speaker 6: of what the ages of her kids were when we
• 1:31
  Speaker 6: first started.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Or maybe how many only how many kids we had
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: when we first started.
• 1:38
  Speaker 5: That's right, that's right, that's right.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: I think I probably had an infant when I first
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: when you and I first sort of became aware of
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: each other, and now they are are much older and
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: at much different stage of life.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Right, my one year old when I first started at Kwaidel,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: she is graduating from high school, riving, and you know,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: it's just it's just a whole nother world now, Yes,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: as sure is so. Amy tell us you've been in
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: the industry for about twenty five years and you've done
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: several different things, several.
• 2:13
  Speaker 7: Different roles, but pretty consistent in housing choice voucher. Walk
• 2:19
  Speaker 7: us back, because I think this is the role that
• 2:21
  Speaker 7: so many people know you from when you in your
• 2:25
  Speaker 7: head days.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: Give us a glimpse of what it was like.
• 2:30
  Speaker 8: Maybe some strategies that you saw that were very effective
• 2:34
  Speaker 8: for utilization and some of those that you're probably applying
• 2:39
  Speaker 8: in your current role. Can you get it to give
• 2:41
  Speaker 8: us a walk down memory link for a few minutes?
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: Oh yes, utilization certainly one of the consistent challenges in
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: administering the Housing Choice Voucher program, which, as you sort
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: of tipped your hat to, has been kind of my
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: professional focus ever since the moment I got into affordable housing.
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: It really, to me is an amazing program, so effective,
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: has such a positive impact on the lives of those
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: that participate in it. So it's really incredibly near and
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: dear to my heart, and utilization is so important. I
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: recently was a technical advisor on a study that was
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: published by Rand and U See Berkeley together about utilization,
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: specifically because it's been falling over the last few years nationwide,
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: as primarily as rents have started to have increased so
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: much since the pandemic in twenty and twenty twenty one.
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: I think in that report I would cute any of
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: any of your listeners to go take a look at it.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: The report really highlights some easy yet incredibly effective strategies
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: to keep your utilization up, and they're ones that we
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: do use here in Fairfax County. I mean, one of
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: the easy ones is to have a long search time.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: It is rough out there for folks, anybody trying to
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: find housing, and individuals with housing Choice vouchers just have
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: additional sort of challenges on top of a regular market holder.
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: You know, you just have like processing times at the
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: housing authority inspections, things like that. So I think giving
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: applicants and movers as much time as you can under
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: the program requirements, which is at least one hundred and
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: eighty days, really really can increase the success rate. Another
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: I think strategy that is pretty effective is making sure
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: your payment standards are keeping with the market rents. As
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: I said earlier, market rents have just been on a
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: steep incline. I think they're starting to level off in
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: some places across the country. They're certainly starting to level
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: off a little bit here in Fairfax County. But making
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: sure that voucher holders have a fighting chance with a
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: payment standard that can really kind of keep pace with
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: the market rent So those would be the two I
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: would point too.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: So what are you seeing in Fairfax County as it
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: relates to that tension between supply and demand? And then
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: obviously the you know, if you're giving people more time
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: to find units, and that's actually going to come back
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: and affect your own utilization and those rates. So there's
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: like this odd tension here. But what are you seeing
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: happening where you are then?
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: Now, Yeah, yeah, it's good. It's a good question.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: We certainly have more demand than supply here in Fairfax County.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: We've had a goal for the past couple of years
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: to produce ten thousand new units of affordable housing here
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: in Fairfax County and to work towards no net loss
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: of affordable housing that already exists. So that's sort of
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: on the supply side. So we're working to increase the
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: supply here in Fairfax County. I think we're probably five
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: to ten thousand units short at least here. We last
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: refresh those numbers in twenty nineteen. I suspect if we
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: were to look today, we would see the gap even greater.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so supply is not nearly enough to keep
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: up with demand. We are seeing our voucher holders struggle
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: more and more. We're fortunate here in Virginia that we
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: have source of income protection, so most LAMB property owners
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: cannot turn someone down just because they have a voucher,
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: and we have found that to be helpful. We've had
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: to do quite a bit of educating property owners what
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: that means. Want to consider the value of the voucher
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: when determining whether an applicant has enough income to pay
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: the rent. So yeah, so we have seen success rates
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: kind of declining, but we've taken measures, as I said,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: search time payment standards, we have geography based payments and
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: now here in Fairfax County to try to ward off
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: too much of a decline in success.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: The research that you were tapped as an expert for
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I want to loop back to that. What do you
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: did you find specific reforms that you were able to
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: point to or was there some type of a trending
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: that you were seeing that maybe you want to give
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: us the cliff notes on that research project.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the research really pointed to and I
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: should you know at the outset state that the housing
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: authority where I work is a moving to workhousing authority.
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: So we're one of a small number about one hundred
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: and thirty nine nationwide that have access to reduced regulations
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: and fiscal flexibility in administering our housing choice about your program,
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: And I think the report really pointed to innovations are
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: most likely happening in moving to work authorities. And I
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: was just at the National Housing Conference last week on
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: a panel about this very topic, and I felt.
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: Like the cheerleader for moving to work.
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: So I'm probably going to sound a little bit like
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: a cheerleader here as well. I think one of the
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: in my experience, one of the things that moving to
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: work agencies have that your regular agency doesn't have is
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: predictability in their funding. And I do think predictability and
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: funding is super important when it comes to innovation, right.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: We see it in our personal lives and you see
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: it in your professional lives. When financial when your finances
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: are unpredictable, you pull back from innovation, and we need
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: some level of financial predictability to innovate. I think housing
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: authorities across the country, all of them are experts in
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: their local market. They are experts in their local housing situation.
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: And so I think one of the reforms that I
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: would love to see as an expansion of the Moving
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: to Work program. And we have seen hot over the
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: years look to the moving to work agencies to identify
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: where they might be able to innovate in the regular
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: voucher program. I would love to see that continue because
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: I do think there's some regulatory reform pieces out there.
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: That they could pick up that.
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: Are coming small you know, a great example of when
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: they did recently is they allowed expanded use of administrative
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: funding for things like landlord incentives, being able to pay
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: for you know, applicant fees and things like that for movers.
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: It picks out both from moving to work and the
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: emergency housing program.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: And you are right you touched on when there is
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: any kind of unpredictability related to funding. There just seems
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: to be this industry hesitancy, which is you know rightfully,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: so there's natural cycles there that happen.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: But what you also mentioned was.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: That that hesitancy leads to slower investment or hesitancy you
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: see played out with the technology not rolling forward as
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: much with technology, and it's a natural I mean, it's
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: just a natural like you mentioned, it's like you know,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: your personal finances, right, It's just a natural sort of
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: slow down there that tends to happen.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: But the cost of the lack of investment, whether it's
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: technology or program expansion or step expansion, whatever that is
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: playing out to it always costs the program though.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: And that's the piece is that you know, even if
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: you delay it by six months, well, let's use the
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: technology piece, you don't invest in some online portals, or
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: you don't upgrade your platform, or you don't offer certain ease.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: It's the residents and the programs and the lack of
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: efficiency that seems to always play out. So you're right.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: The moving to work expansion or adding more people to
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: that program, or even taking what you guys are doing
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: well and then cross applying it to other housing authorities
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: would be a great a great win on a couple
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: of different things. What what's the best thing that you
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: think and this may not be a just a simple
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: answer here, what's the best thing you think that you
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: guys have done from moving to work that you definitely wouldn't.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: Have done otherwise had you not had that. Can you
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: sum it up in one thing or is it like
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: a whole? Is it five things?
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: I think there's that's a great question. I think there's
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: two things. If you'll allow me to, even though you
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: give me one, I'm gonna I'm gonna take some some
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: liberties here and go with two. Well, we've done and
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: it's really related to housing productions. So we are able
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: to use any reserves we have and make investments in
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: capital or land acquisition. We can make lullts to properties
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: that are under development or grants. That has been huge
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: to use our moving to Work funds for gap financing,
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: and we've used it for acquisition. Paired with that, we
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: have also used our flexibility on the awarding of project
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: based vouchers to incentivize development here in Virginia. I guess
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: it's probably I would imagine it's probably true elsewhere in
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: the nine percent lie tech competition, projects coming in with
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: committed subsidy can get extra points and being able to
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: do that quickly and efficient being able to award project
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: based vouchers quickly and efficiently is super important to those
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: projects competitiveness in those lie tech competitions. And so we
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: have been able to contribute to probably four projects that
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: are up wards of five hundred units of housing here
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: that will all be affordable for ninety years plus. Some
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: are ninety nine years plus. So yeah, those are incredible
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: tools on the production side. And those units are also
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: going to be available to tenant based voucher holders as well,
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: so you have project big vouchers, tenant based vouchers will
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: have access to it, and anybody at sixty percent AMI
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: and below are going to have access over the long term.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: So to us, those are two amazing tools.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: And are helplets here. Yeah, those are.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Excellent examples and for many people know the link about
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: being able to put those units into the marketplace.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: But describe something specific that I see about Fairfax County.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Is your ability to attract major employers and so what
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: this tool does. So talk about some of that that
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: you are now leveraging this type of a tool to
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: be able to offer at that particular table, which is
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: a little different than just you know, just saying hey,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: we're gonna build it, We're gonna partner, we're gonna provide it.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: Because Fairfax County, you guys.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Are a CAC leader when it comes to coming to
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: the table for employers.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: So describe what happens there.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: The chairman of our Board of Supervisors, Chairman Jeff McKay,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: regularly says that affordable housing is key to our economic
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: prosperity here in Fairfax County. We have one of the
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: highest amis in the country, second only to you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: San Francisco, the Bay Area, and we do have major
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: employers here. We're a huge technology sector here, we have
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: a lot of healthcare here in Fairfax County, and obviously
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: we're huge to the federal government. A lot of the
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: federal government and its contractors, those employees live here in
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: Fairfax County as well. And Fairfax County has a lot
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: of amenities, and that is why people want to live here.
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: That is why employers want to be here, and we
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: need workers in those amenities. And so the ami levels
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: that we're serving in our housing here, these are you know,
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: it's literally like school teachers, nurses, medical assistants. I mean,
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: of course it's your retail workers as well, but it
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: is the workers that are so important to making Fairfax
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: County the wonderful place that it is to live. And
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: so we see Fairfax County and affordable housing as like
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: together to make this a great place for everybody to
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: come and live.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: And it's one of those cities that the you know,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: when the Megan names are coming in, they're at the
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: table asking you to come in. You know, they're they're saying, okay,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you're not having to convince them.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: I've seen so many press releases.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Come out of Fairfax County where you know, those partnership
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: deals are happening with some of those major major employers,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: and they were at the table from the beginning with
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: you guys in most cases right, Yeah, so there's.
• 16:06
  Speaker 6: No you know, that doesn't seem to be that there
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: is this pulling and tagging that's happening because they wanted to.
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: They absolutely do.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: And one of our more recent partners is Amazon. But
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: the Amazon Equity Fund, you know, they've got HQ two,
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: which isn't in Fairfax County, however, it's right in Arlington,
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: which is right up against Fairfax County. And so they
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: that equity fund brought significant investment to a few projects
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: in Tysons, which is a transit oriented area here and
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: we're I think we've got maybe eight hundred units underway
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: and Tysons have the Silver Line running through their tons
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: of employment opportunities for folks. So it was really nice
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: to see Amazon part of those deals.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: M Well, congratulations because that's a that's a big one too.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I wanted to transition here and ask you a couple
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: other questions. At first of all, congratulations on being appointed
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: the president of the National Least Housing Association. And so
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: I want to give NLA to a moment to have
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: some coverage here because they're quite unique when you look
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: across the board of industry partners and industry associations, they're
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: really really different, and.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: So I want you to explain a little bit about
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: who they are and what your president term is going
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: to look like.
• 17:35
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: National Leased Housing Association truly is a unique industry association,
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: and unique in the fact that they are a broad
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: group of stakeholders, not just housing authorities, not just you know,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: not just multi family owners. I mean you have housing authorities,
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: You've got owners, you have syndicators, you have lenders, you
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: have insurers. I mean when you go to these conferences
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: and when I'm at the Board of directors meeting, I
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: usually have my breath taken away by how broad the
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: set of stakeholders are at the table. And it's stakeholders
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: that really are truly all centered on the mission of
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: affordable housing. So even if they're coming from a very
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: profit driven sector like banking, like lending, they are zeroed
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: in on affordable housing and so they do. Nlah really
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: sets themselves apart in that way. I think NLAHA is
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: also an incredible legislative organization, super influential. I think on
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: the Hill. A lot of that is the people that
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: work there. Denise, who is the I think her title
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: is executive director, but she is a powerhouse, has great
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: relationships and really understands sort of the breadth of the
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: work of affordable house in terms of what I plan
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: to accomplish. You know, I think we're it's a it's
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: a very interesting political time to be working in affordable housing.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: I think, you know, continuing to advocate for expanded fund
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: well at a minimum, stable funding, expanded funding for the
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: voucher program, expanded funding for p b r A, you know,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: all the housing sort of subsidy programs. You know, we
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: were disappointed to see the Road to Housing not be
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: a part of the nda A, but fingers crossed that
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: that that can continue on it's on a separate path
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: or maybe pops up somewhere else. So I think, you know,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: another year of really just fighting for funding for these
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: incredible programs and for trying to see legislation move forward
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: that opens more doors and perhaps eases some regulatory burden.
• 19:58
  Speaker 10: And it's it's interesting mention that because easing that regulatory
• 20:03
  Speaker 10: burden has also been part of the equation. It's you know,
• 20:07
  Speaker 10: people are saying, how can we build it faster, how
• 20:10
  Speaker 10: can we you know, get product git housing product built
• 20:16
  Speaker 10: in a way that's still compliant, but is maybe taking
• 20:20
  Speaker 10: some of those unnecessary regulations and and the peace of
• 20:25
  Speaker 10: legislation you mentioned had a couple of those nuggets in there,
• 20:29
  Speaker 10: so uh or.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting because most people are agreeing on those
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: deregulation points. There's not this huge.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Battle right now to take away a few of those
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: extra hurdles that have been in there and quite frankly
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: driving up the cost of housing. So do you envision
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: a few of those getting across the line next year
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: or what's your predictions on that?
• 20:55
  Speaker 10: Oh?
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: Goodness, yeah, I mean the Road to Home, the Road
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: to Housing feel was so unique in that it was
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: so bipartisan, you know, a ton of support for that,
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: and it did have I forget how many articles it
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: had in it, maybe twenty something. I would really hope
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: I'm not a very good prognosticator, but I would really
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: hope to see some reform on NEPA on the environmental says.
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: I know that that certainly in our development here in
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Fairfax County. You know, it's it's a regulatory burden, it's
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: a long pole in the tent. You know, it takes
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: a long time, and that that choice limiting piece can
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: be very challenging, I think for developers because you're just
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: you're waiting. There's just a lot of waiting related to
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: NIPA and a lot of duplication. I think you know this,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: like what's the difference between part fifty and Part fifty eight. No,
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: So I would I would really keep my fingers crossed
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: for some some NEPA adjustments and then I really sort
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: of mane call myself an expert on it.
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: But what I looked at on.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: The CDBG and HOME pieces, I was very encouraged to
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: see this notion of perhaps incentivizing localities who use their
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: CDBG and home towards housing production to get some rewards.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: So I think I think that would be pretty neat
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: if we could get that across the finish line as well.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: Of course, I love the MTW expansion in there. I
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: don't love how constrained it was, But any MTW expansion
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: is a thumb suck for me.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And it's incrementally that we're learning what's working and what's
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: not working, because even there's some things that were intended
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: for good but seem to be backfiring now with the
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: pace and appetite that we need to provide housing, So
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: we are incrementally getting better as a from a policy perspective.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: I even have heard some horror stories, which hasing practitioners
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: love to share horror stories. It's part of our learning, right,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: But I've heard even some of the things about the
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Davis Bacon wage differences. Is how you know they'll have
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: to pay a certain rate for the community room when
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: they build it or renovate it, but then they got
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: to pay the same person a different rate, you know
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: if they're in the dwelling unit.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: You know, there's all of these.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Things that are adding complexity and expense and delays quite frankly,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: So you know, just something as small.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: As small I got to air quote it.
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: Something as small as that really could impact the ability
• 23:39
  Speaker 6: to operate.
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: And you know, the unit designation.
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: Is so low compared to what needs to happen anyway,
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: So you know, we are slightly hopeful that some of
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: these things in today's lenses could have more effective impact
• 23:55
  Speaker 6: for housing.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Is there anything else like your your hope full four
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: when you look when you kind of like zoom out
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: from a house in perspective, anything that you're really seeing
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: out there. I mean, we've covered some good ones here
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: with MTW and the Road to Housing, but anything else
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: that you're you're looking on the horizon at and you're.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: Hopeful for, well, I'm always hopeful because as a housing
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: professional you almost have to be hopeful. I am hopeful
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: that Congress and the Administration will continue to see the
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: importance of the subsidy programs.
• 24:37
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: We spent some time you're talking about production and the
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: supply side, and I think we saw that, you know,
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: the Administration put forward pretty deep cuts to in their
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: budget request, and I think we saw in the initial
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: markups from Congress that they did not want to see that.
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: So I am hopeful with Congress that they see the
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: value of the Housing Choice voucher program and all of
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: the special purpose vouchers that are in there as well,
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: you know, the family unification. I'm hopeful that the commitment
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: to use aging out of foster care remains. That has
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: been a strong commitment for a few years running.
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: Now.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: I think that's such an an incredibly vulnerable population that
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: we need to continue to address. So I'm hopeful that
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: Congress will continue their support of that particular population. Very
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: similar with the Veteran's Affairs support of housing program bash
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: as well as the mainstream program. So on the horizon,
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: I'm hoping to see continued support of the subsidy programs
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: because supply is important.
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: I mean it's like two ends of a seesaw, right,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: I mean they both kind of need to be there.
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: We need supply and we need tenant based vouchers.
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: People do need choice.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: And they need to be able to move around right
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: their lives, you know, expand contract to whatever situation is
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: happening for them. So that's what I'm really hopeful for
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: is continued support of the voucher program and specifically the
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: special purpose vultures.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: And it sounds flippant to say, but affordable housing policy
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: makes good economic policy, and the ability to have vouchers
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: in community is a stabilizer.
• 26:30
  Speaker 11: And it's it is a difference in it and it
• 26:35
  Speaker 11: just used to be sort of in like your high
• 26:37
  Speaker 11: rent cities, and now across the nation we're seeing how
• 26:41
  Speaker 11: this is making good economic sense for the individual and
• 26:45
  Speaker 11: for the community.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: So we will keep the hope alive as it relates
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: to the links.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: It's just being a real sound economic policy.
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, I think.
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: Many localities don't think about how many millions of dollars
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: go into the local economy through the voucher program. I
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: mean here in Fairfax County, we're at like eight and
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: a half million dollars a month that goes from the
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: housing authority into the hands of private property owners. And
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: when you start to talk about the voucher program, you know,
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: I mean, besides the point it being the right thing
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: to do for people, when you start to talk about
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: it in terms of the contributor it is to the
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: economic engine of a locality, I think folks eyes start
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: to open a little wider, their ears opening, say, Wow,
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: if this voucher program were to go away, that is
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: eight million dollars less that would be reliably.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: Pumped into the economy.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: I mean, sure, maybe you'd have renters sort of fill in.
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: But the voucher program is consistent, it's regular, it is
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: first of the month. So absolutely, absolutely good housing policy
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: is good economic policy.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: Agree, So I would be remiss if I didn't ask you.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: One of the things that I've.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Loved about this podcast is not only does it let
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: us be hopeful for the future, it lets us brainstorm
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: for what we need today in regulation reform or just
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: you know, compliance wins but it also lets us highlight
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: best practice. But another thing that I like is that
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: we are able to do myth busting and we're able
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: to say, you know, you've got the microphone here, what
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: is what is something that you really like to say?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I like to break this myth up about housing? Fill
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: in the blank?
• 28:44
  Speaker 9: What would what myth would you like to break up?
• 28:48
  Speaker 9: I have two myths if you okay. So one myth
• 28:51
  Speaker 9: is about housing authorities. I think there is a myth
• 28:54
  Speaker 9: that housing authorities don't know what they're doing or there
• 28:59
  Speaker 9: you know, purpose being bad, whatever, right, And to break
• 29:04
  Speaker 9: that myth is the truth of the matter is that
• 29:08
  Speaker 9: housing authorities they live.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, they exist in the communities they serve, and
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: they are one hundred percent motivated by the community they serve.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: They if they've made a mistake, it's more likely the
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: result of the incredible complexity of the programs that we administer.
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: So that's myth Number one. Closing authorities are not bad actors.
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: I mean, of course you have one or two.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: But whatever you know, I mean that happens, it's going
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: to happen in any population. But housing authorities are actors
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: in the community and they know best really quite frankly,
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: what needs to happen in their community.
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: That's myth number one. The second myth is one that
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: has been.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: Around forever, which is that you know, recipients, participants in
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: the voucher program don't work, They're lazy whatever, right, And
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: what I have seen no matter what housing authority I've
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: worked in, and I've worked in housing authorities for twenty
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: five years, really big ones I've consulted at really small ones,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: is that people are working. This voucher program serves. First
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: of all, they serve a significant portion of elderly and
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: disabled individuals where it's just not in the cards for
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: them to work, right, so they are The voucher program
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: is a safety net for the elderly and the disabled.
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: And then when you get to the non elderly and disabled,
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: a significant portion of those individuals are working. And the
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: reality in many localities in this country is you can
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: be working full time, maybe full time plus, and you
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: still can't afford the rent no matter what. So that
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: is the other myth. People do work, and even working,
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: they still can't afford the rent. They still need subsidy
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: to stay there.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I really.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Any time the National Trade organizations put forward how many
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: people are working in the programs.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: You know, if you take the big.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Pot and then you like you said, exclude senior, exclude disabled,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: you know, even maybe exclude some veterans pieces of this,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and then you look at that population. You know, we're
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: talking high percentages. I've seen studies that say about seventy
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: to seventy four percent are working. Have the employment associated
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: in some of those nice little head field and codes
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: that you can run the reports on.
• 31:37
  Speaker 12: Some of the you know, and that's that's definitely contradictory
• 31:41
  Speaker 12: to the assumption, you know, that it's zero percent people
• 31:45
  Speaker 12: working or you know, that kind of thing, because that's
• 31:48
  Speaker 12: a pretty high number.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, really, anything over fifty percent is a high number.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: To look at some of these reports that say it's
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: even up in the seventies. Definitely combating that myth, isn't it?
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: For sure? Absolutely?
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: Well, Amy Ginger, I appreciate your time. It has been
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: a pleasure to have you on here.
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: We have accomplished our hopes and dreams for affordable housing
• 32:15
  Speaker 6: for the new year.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: And we've been able to tackle a couple myths.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: What a fun conversation, Amy, I appreciate it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. I look
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: forward to lots of success for all of us in
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: the new year. It's going to be great, excellent again.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I've been talking with Amy Ginger, the deputy director of
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Operations at Fairfax County, Virginia.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thanks for listening to change makers
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: with Katie Gore. To find out more about Katie, go
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: to quad l dot com. That's quad el dot com.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: This has been a production of Forbes Books Radio