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Books4Guys - Shola "Brother Teresa" Richards · Books4Guys

0:15
SPEAKER_00: Rocking, rocking the man of the brother.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean the colorful shirt, but no, Shola, we are finally doing this, man.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: And I had to say, Shola, aka Brother Teresa.
0:29
SPEAKER_00: I saw that was your nickname, and I was like, oh yeah, I gotta mention that.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: But man, it is great to finally have you on the Books for Guys podcast.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: Chris, my guy, first of all, man, I was sharing with Chris just off camera.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: I guess it was on camera, but we weren't recording, how much I appreciate the work you're doing for Book for Guys.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: And to just be able to be on the platform and to talk about it with you.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: It's an honor, man.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: So always down to get real with the fellow brother doing the good work.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: So appreciate you.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, like I said, I think this is going to be one of the coolest, most impactful conversations with anyone that I've had on the podcast so far.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: And I've got your book here.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Let's go.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: It's over there in the corner, kind of offshore, but it's there somewhere.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: It was one that, and I really love that Mel Robbins has uh has a spot on the front of your cover.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm a big Mel Robbins fan.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, who isn't?
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: I got to see her speak about 10 years ago, and then now people are like, Mel Robbins.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, I saw her.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: I saw her before.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Did you see her live?
1:34
SPEAKER_01: You watch her speak like at an event, you're saying?
1:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she came.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: She came to an event and spoke at my company uh when we were pretty small.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: So it was really cool to get her before she was cool.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's amazing.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: Before she was cool.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's my little claim to fame with her.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I saw her before she was big.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: But no, man, your book was extremely powerful because I I love everything that you're about because I'm I'm the same way.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: I love positivity, I love kindness, but we cannot be we can't shield our eyes away from all of the uh anger and the division and all of the hate that we see in the world every single day.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's so tough to be positive and to have that right mindset.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: And you, your story, I just I learned a lot about you.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you being so vulnerable in your book because you could have totally become a different person and rightfully so.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: You could have been super angry, super bitter, and could have not used your platform to inspire kindness and generosity and positivity.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: And so I would love for you just to share your story and and what you went through and how you decided you were gonna be a light of positivity in the world and help encourage that when you could have gone a totally different direction.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: That's so funny.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think about that often, Chris.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: First of all, thanks for even mentioning the kind words about the book.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Much appreciated.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm a comic book nerd, so I I love superheroes and stuff, and it's it's fascinating if you think about comic books, right?
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Whether you're a supervillain or a superhero, most origin stories start with some sort of trauma, some really deep trauma.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: The superhero gets traumatized, whether it was, you know, Peter Parker seeing his uncle getting murdered or something like that.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: And they could have a choice.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: The superhero decides, I don't want this to happen to anyone else.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be a force to fight against this villain of stuff that happens to good people all over the world.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: Supervillains, on the other hand, have similar trauma.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Something bad happens to them.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: And instead of them being like, I want to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else, is like, I'm so hurt, and I want other people to feel the same pain that I'm feeling.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: So I think there's like this really interesting path that we get to branch.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: You have a choice of going the superhero route or the supervillain route.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: So I chose to be a superhero, not that, not literally, but the idea of not harming others and helping folks.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of the background of it.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: My story's pretty, it's interesting, but it's also pretty common.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: So I grew up as a kid, I was bullied a lot.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: I grew up with a speech impediment.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: I talked funny and um I stuttered a lot and my teeth were jacked up.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: So it was an easy target for the bullies.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Had some really rough things happen to me in my childhood, one of which I talked about in the book.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: I'll just keep it real, Chris.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: The thing that happened to me as a child, I still struggle to talk about like on camera without getting emotional.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: So I just leave it to the book.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: But I will get to something that I think I do talk about on stages very often.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Is I was in a really toxic work environment about 20 years ago.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: Really deeply toxic.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: The folks there were terrible.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: And I should kind of set back up a little bit.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm what's called an HSP since of our highly sensitive person.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: So I feel things really, really deeply.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: It fits about like 15 to 20% of the human population.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: Things that most normal folks can just kind of brush off their backs, like, ah, whatever.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: The guy was rude to me.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: The guy, you know, flipped me off in traffic.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: It sits with me for way longer than maybe the average person.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: So with that backdrop, I've been bullied as a kid.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: And now 20 plus years later, I'm in a work environment where I'm dealing with an incredibly toxic work environment, horrible behavior from others.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, man, I cannot think I could deal with this for the another, twenty, thirty years of my working life.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I can.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I dealt with this as a kid.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: I thought now as an adult, this would be better, and it's only gotten worse.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: And I just decided I'd reach the capacity of receiving unkindness.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'm done.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't opting out of the job, which would have made way more sense.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: I was like, screw this, man.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: This human experience is just way too painful.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: And I decided that I was going to take my own life.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: And I'm speaking not euphemistically, like literally, I decided I live in Los Angeles, and while driving down the 405 freeway here in Los Angeles, I'd attempt to drive my car off the overpass in an attempt to make it look like an accident.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank God.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: And sorry, I get every time I talk about this, I get I feel the emotion of it because it's like there's a book behind me, your body keeps the score, and it's so real.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: I feel it every single time I talk about this.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, thank God the uh guardrail held it came back in incoming traffic.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: And I decided that I was gonna spend the rest of my natural life making sure that no one dealt with that level of pain again and kind of parsing through the pain to try to figure out what's the cause of it.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: It's just like the question that kept coming up why can't we be kinder to each other?
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Why can't we treat each other better?
6:41
SPEAKER_01: And the one thing that kind of really is like the through line through all of it is this concept of how we communicate.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: How can we find a way to communicate with each other and disagree without disrespect?
6:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying you have to agree on everything.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: That's insanity, especially in this world.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: However, can we just learn how to agree, disagree better?
7:01
SPEAKER_01: I really believe it's possible.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: And if we can get to that point, I think a lot of the problems that we're screaming at each other about could be solved in a way that could be calm, thoughtful, and maybe even productive.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thankful for that guardrail as well.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Because we wouldn't be having that this conversation without the good Lord keeping you, uh keeping you safe.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I love in your book, Shola, you break down exactly the steps on how we can better communicate with each other.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: And you give great examples of like, hey, here's an issue that is very polarizing.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people that think this way versus this way.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: But we don't have to talk hatefully to each other and stand on the ground that I'm right and you're wrong, and that's the way it is.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's a way for us to talk and be open and say, hey, tell me, tell me more about why you think that way.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: Explain it to me.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: And again, it's such a from a books for guys perspective, that's that's kind of why I've started this, is because I've started reading books about people in situations that maybe I thought I didn't like or I didn't agree with, and it's incredible.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: After I would read them, I'd be like, wow, I actually like think of this person in a different way.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: I actually agree with them more than I thought I did, or this situation.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Now I understand why this is sensitive to certain people, and I see both sides of it.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: But people just in social media I know plays a huge part of this.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: You talk about that too, but people are so quick to react and talk before they listen and just really think about things.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: But I love how you put all that in your book because as I was reading it, it was just reaffirming to me like, yeah, take time before responding on a post or saying something that may hurt someone else's feelings.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's no need for that at all.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: There's no need, there's no reason to do that.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: And so, man, I mean, your what your work is so I just I'm so inspired by your work and how you are going about doing this just because again, as I was reading it, I was like, man, we need more solas in the world.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is what we need.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: So kind.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: That's all it's so funny, Chris.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, like when I think about it, oftentimes we're in this weird place right now in our world where things are so divided.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes you'll hear people say, like, we just need to communicate better.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, no kidding.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: How?
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Like it's like, I think a lot of people really need to understand like the how, how to do it.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to write the most practical, thoughtful how-to guide on how to navigate really tough conversations.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have people who have decided, like, I'm done with talking to my mom.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm I'm done talking to my parents because they are on this side and I'm on this side, or whatever.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: I know plenty of people who have excommunicated relationships that are longstanding and dread the holidays because it's literally the most polarizing time of the year.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that we have to agree on everything.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: I keep saying this over and over and over again, but I really do think that there's a power in understanding how to communicate with someone who you disagree with.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: Because if you do this thoughtfully, you actually have an opportunity to change people's minds, which is crazy because what people do instead is they're like, they decide, I'm gonna shame you.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna talk about how stupid you are and how what are you, what are you thinking?
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't imagine if, like, for example, I'm not a gun guy, I don't like guns.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: That's just my humble opinion.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Nothing wrong with it.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: That's just my thing.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: Now, if I were to have a conversation with someone who's a gun enthusiast, if I'm like, wow, so you like guns, that's funny.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Gosh, clearly you're using your guns to self-soothe for your lack of ability to please your wife in the bedroom.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: That's why you have a gun.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, all of a sudden, like, oh, you know what, Shola, you're right.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly why I have a gun.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: You uncovered something amazing for me.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Said by no one ever, right?
10:59
SPEAKER_01: There's no way that person is going to be insulted and demeaned and hear your side.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: Yet, this is exactly what happens on social media all the time.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: We always see this, and people wonder why we can't communicate.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: There's science behind this, which I think is so fascinating.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: 66 is this guy, Jack Bram, who came up with this thing called the reactance theory.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not gonna nerd out too deeply on this, but here's the real bottom line of this the boomerang effect is what came out of this.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: The boomerang effect states in simple, simple terms, when you attack someone for their beliefs, instead of them opening up and being like, Oh, thank you for showing me how wrong I was, they actually double down and have getting more entrenched in their beliefs than they were before you attacked.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So if you think that your attack is changing the world in any meaningful way, besides satiating your lizard brain impulses, all you're doing is three things.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: One, you are further entrenching these people and the beliefs that you find despicable.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: Two, you have set fire at any hope of them seeing the merits of your position.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: And three, you've decided to make the world a worse place for all of us by increasing the uncivil discourse that's hitting our world at record numbers right now.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: If you're cool with all three points, fam, do you.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: But if you're one of the mature, thoughtful humans are like, God, there's gotta be a better way.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: That's what I wrote the book for.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: To just talk about how we can have this communication without destroying someone.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: If I said to you, Chris, just using guns, for example, like, I know, wow, I know that you really enjoy guns.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Tell me more about why you find that to be, why you enjoy guns so much.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: I admit, admittedly, I'm not a huge fan, but I want to learn more about what is it about it that you feel to be great.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, hey, I believe in my second uh second amendment rights.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: I believe I have the right to bear arms.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: I should have them if I want to.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: And I'm a responsible gun owner and I want to have guns.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: Hey, that's good to know because my fear are the people who aren't responsible gun owners.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And I'm worried about these people harming our communities and shooting up our schools, other person.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: That's a great point.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm against that too.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't want that to happen.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: We just found common ground.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: I didn't attack him, he didn't attack me, but we found what we have in common.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: So now he's like, listen, yes, I'm all for guns, but I want them to be used safely.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, cool.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm not for guns, but I can agree on the fact that you should be used safely.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: Now we found common ground.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Now we can communicate.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And now he understands my view a little bit better.
13:17
SPEAKER_01: I understand his viewpoint.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: We may not like walk away, like completely entrenched in each other's ideas, but at the very least, we're not attacking each other anymore.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: We're not screaming at each other.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: And now the person has a better idea of my standpoint, and the same thing for the other.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: This goes for immigration reform.
13:33
SPEAKER_01: This goes for politics.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: This goes for the conflict in the Middle East.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: This goes for anything, abortion, anything that's polarizing, difficult, and hard.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: We just have to find a way to communicate in a way where we're calm, thoughtful, be able to state our views without attacking the other person.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I Shola, I I choose to believe that more most of us are like that.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Like I think there's more people that admit and are good and they know there's a better way, but we fall in these traps.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Not they're not even traps.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: We just, I don't know, we get influenced.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: And I you mentioned the news and social media stuff too.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: We have these things that influence us and and kind of make us step out of our own reality for a little bit and do things and say things that later on, I'm sure a lot of us have said and done things where we look back and go, like, what an idiot.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Like raise my hands.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: That didn't matter whatsoever.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, why did I say that?
14:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, I that that should have never said that.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: And and look what I've caused.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: When you talk about families, you know, like there's so many things that just we we blow up things to mean thing mean more than what they really do.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: And you see people that you know, they they cut friendships off and family, and you're like, does it really matter that much?
14:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, it shouldn't.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: But again, I love that love that you use specific examples and and communication examples on how to go about a conversation over a tense topic like like gun control or uh abortion.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: I love that you did not shy away from using these extreme examples that that people love to debate and really get hot over.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: So, but I think that's important.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: You didn't need to shy away.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: You needed to put those those examples out there because that that's where you see a lot of this major division take place.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: But again, I think most people want to be kinder and they want to be nicer and they want it to be a better world.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: We just get influenced negatively more so than not, unfortunately.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: But how do you, Shola?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: So you speak all over the world.
15:39
SPEAKER_00: You speak all over the world now, you're talking with companies, you're talking with groups, you know, and and I'm assuming some of these conversations, you speak for an hour or so.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: What are the high-level points that you try to get across?
15:52
SPEAKER_00: Because your book obviously can reach a lot of people and they can take their time and learning it.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: But when you get just that 45 minute to an hour window, what's the nuggets that you really want people to take away when listening to you speak?
16:05
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for even asking.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: Somedays it's so funny because I do it so often.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Someone asked me, like, what is what do you talk about?
16:11
SPEAKER_01: It's like, gosh, it's so much.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: So I try one, what were the three things that I think are the most important?
16:17
SPEAKER_01: It kind of changes, man.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest, Chris.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes, depending on the audience and what they actually need, I lean into different points.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: But generally speaking, there's a few things.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to what you said earlier around, and I'm gonna answer a question, but you said something that I thought was really important.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to make sure that I addressed it.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: Is like, if I'm gonna write a book about having difficult conversations, I can't be like, hey, let's talk about the difference between Coke and Pepsi or should you drive a regular gas car or hybrid?
16:44
SPEAKER_01: Like it's got to go into like real hard stuff.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: I will say this though, I agree that most people are kind and or are open to kindness.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: My thing that I don't want to get twisted if anyone listened to Books for Guys here is the idea of like, you just have to be kind and sweet and civil to everyone.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: There's some people out there that are not worthy of your civility and kindness.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: There are some people who will cross the line and will be so cruel and so hateful and don't even see your humanity.
17:13
SPEAKER_01: It would be insane for me to get up here like, those are the people that you just need to pour out love to them and get screw that.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: I am not about that energy at all.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: If you determine that someone does not see your humanity, is outwardly cruel, is a narcissist, a bully, a bigot, whatever you want to call it, do yourself a favor and separate yourself from them as soon as possible.
17:35
SPEAKER_01: I have said this before: some people in our lives need to be loved from a distance.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: And real talk, that is something that I want to be clear about.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Because I think oftentimes it gets twisted with this whole civility conversation.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: It's like you just have to be kind to everyone and they'll finally come around.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Some folks are not coming around.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: So just put those people aside and focus on the ones where you have an opportunity to have conversations in good faith.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: So, but back to your very important question.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: On stages, probably the thing I talk about the most is this real juxtaposition between being kind and being nice.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people use those terms interchangeably, which is really unfortunately ineffective.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: The idea nice by definition means being polite and agreeable.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: And we can all agree that is a super low bar.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can think of the worst human being that you know right now, which shouldn't take very long, unfortunately.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: That person could say please or thank you.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: We know this.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: But niceness is saying please and thank you while the world burns.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Kind people are the ones who are putting out the fires, they're tending to the burned and they're doing the hard, difficult work to make sure that those fires never happen again.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Kindness, in my humble estimation, is demonstrating to your actions that you genuinely care about another human being, even when it's hard, even when it costs you something, even when it requires courage that you may not have.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: That's the real thing.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Niceness does not require any courage.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: We know the type of person, we all know the person who's like the manager is like, hey, my door is open to anyone who comes in.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: It's an open door policy, and they roll your eye their eyes the second you walk through that door.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: That's one, that's niceness.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Kindness is a demonstration that you care.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: So when I talk to people, that is really the primary thing.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: One thing I've been talking about too a lot is uh the secondary thing, not necessarily secondary, but it's something that's now even more important than ever, is around intellectual humility.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Intellectual humility, just for a lack of a better way of putting it, is the idea that our knowledge about a topic is incomplete and we could be wrong.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Now, we know, Chris, you know, fam, that there's people in your life, I know people in my life, who suffer from certainty addiction.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, the person who is always wrong but never in doubt, like that guy or that gal, that person.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: We see these all the time.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: They're unwilling to even entertain the idea that their idea could be wrong.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: But the smartest people I know, the ones who I care about the most, the ones who I respect the most, they're willing to look inward and be like, God, I could be wrong about this.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know what, that may not be right.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: Or here's my thoughts on it.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: And I'm open if better information comes or or you want to share something with me that could make me think a little bit different or open my eyes to it.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm here for it.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Getting people to be more intellectually humble, more willing to just look at an idea that they believe in.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: And I challenge people, think of something that you really believe staunchly in.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: When's the last time you've changed your mind about something?
20:19
SPEAKER_01: I asked the audience, when's the last time you changed your mind about something?
20:21
SPEAKER_01: Not about like, hey, should uh, you know, like I said, Coke or Pepsi, not that stuff.
20:25
SPEAKER_01: But like, wow, I really believed X for most of my life.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: And over the recent weeks, months, years, I've realized that that was a mistake and I was wrong about that.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: And I changed my mind.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: When I ask people that question, most people can't come up with something real and meaningful and thoughtful because we don't change our minds very often.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: And that's usually due to a lack of intellectual humility.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So I really, really want to lean to that.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: And the third thing, I courage, man.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think this is a really this is a time where we cannot sit back and see unkindness happening and then morph into that like internet meme where like Homer Simpson like fades into the bushes.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's like no one else is coming to do this work.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: No one's gonna save us.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: It's gotta be us.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: So when we see something happening, it could be something as simple as going to the grocery store and the person in line is just berating the cashier over an expired coupon and yelling at this person and treating them horribly.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: You could be like, hey, my name is Wes, keep me out of this mess.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Or you could lean in, but hey, listen, don't, don't, don't talk to her like that.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: What are you doing?
21:26
SPEAKER_01: And and I feel there's so much power and that courage of going first, being the first to apologize, being the first to stand up when you see unkindness, be the first to have that difficult conversation.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: All these things I think really create a kinder, more civil world.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: And it's not easy.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: And that's probably why more people aren't doing it right now.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: If you got me thinking about uh one of your posts I saw on LinkedIn recently, where you I think your question was like, is there anything someone could say to you that would make you want to punch them in the face?
21:53
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sitting here thinking, it's not really saying to me, but like one thing I absolutely hate is seeing people be mean to.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Other people are disrespectful.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Like it's an automatic, like, I boil, and I like that makes me want to hit them.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, how dare you treat them that way or say that to them?
22:11
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's not about me.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: I could care less if you say anything to me.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to roll off, like whatever.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: But to see someone else have to endure that type of just hate and language, I'm like, I will, I will do something bad to you if you don't stop.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: I got Chris, I gotta ask you because I'm super curious.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Whenever I hear people say that, because I feel like some days I feel like I'm alone in this feeling.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Have you always been like that?
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Or is that something that is more recent?
22:34
SPEAKER_01: Like you really get upset when you see it.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: For a while, I've been like that.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And it probably has been more noticeable recently because I was also looking at your posts were great, by the way, recently, because you were talking about how you personally feel like you've experienced more anger recently.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And I'm the I'm the same way.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's and there's little things.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: It's the way people don't care about the rules on the road.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Little things that people are just totally just just pissing away for lack of a better term.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: That's a perfect term.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Can we just do things the right way?
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Follow the rules a little bit.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: It makes it the world a better and safer place for everybody.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: And it's not that hard.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: No.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: Stop at the stop sign.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: Let let somebody walk on the crosswalk without speeding through.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, those things really get to me.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: But no, so that's a great question because I feel like for a lot of my life, I thankfully I've been in a position to where I wasn't bullied a lot as a kid.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: I definitely went through we're older kids, you know, I played sports and they picked on me.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: And but you know, I learned how to be tough.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: But for the most part, I felt like I did a good job of standing up for people.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: And when things got, you know, maybe dicey for someone else, I wanted to be the person that could be like, hey man, like help me out here.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: So-and-so's being mean.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, I wanted to be the one to step up and be like, yo, don't do that.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: You're a fighter.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've ever been in a fight in my entire life.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Me neither.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Was maybe with my best friend, but never like anyone of like hate or anything.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: It's funny you mention guns.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, I hate guns.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Loud and powerful, and I I'm like so afraid of what they can do.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: Same.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: Very funny.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: I've never been a gun person, but always been someone that where that stuff kind of triggers me, where I'm like, man, just be nice.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, don't it makes me sick to my stomach when I see things that are hateful or people say negative things.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: It just, I don't know.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: That's always been something that's gotten to me.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you mentioned that, man, because I I think that's one of the things that I find to be my kryptonite.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, it used to be.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: So I used to see unkindness and I would get physically sick, this whole HSP highly sensitive person.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Like I would feel so I'd go to a restaurant, see someone berating the server.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: I'd be on a plane and someone's treating the flight attendant horribly.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: Or God, there was a time when I was going and there was a hurricane that was coming through, and all the flights had to be canceled.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: Understandably, because we don't want to die, right?
24:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it kind of kind of makes sense.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: And we're screaming at this woman who was at the desk, trying her damnedest to try to make this work for everyone and find better flights, and screaming at her and like cursing her out as if she's in control of the weather pattern.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, hold on, let me go talk to Mother Nature real quick.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Can I put you on hold?
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, Mother Nature, this woman really needs to get on our flight.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: She's cursing at me.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Can you do something about the storm thing?
25:15
SPEAKER_01: Like, just to your point, just thinking about someone else beside yourself.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: We're in shared spaces on an airplane, in a doctor's office, when we're out driving on the road, as you mentioned, just being thoughtful about other people, it's probably my biggest pet peeve.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: I just can't, I can't understand a world where people are so self-absorbed that they're like, you know what?
25:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm there's someone, an elderly person trying to cross the street on a walker, and you're about to make a right turn and they're behind you, and they're laying on the horn.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I know.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: I know.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: What am I supposed to do with that?
25:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, well, I'm like, literally, that's the one thing that makes me like switch out of Brother Teresa energy, man, go straight hood.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yo, what, what?
25:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm like, do you see this woman crossing the street on a walker?
25:59
SPEAKER_01: What would you want me to do?
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Run her down.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's just like just understanding that there's a world out there that is outside of our own little bubble of our needs and wants.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: I just it's very funny.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: I think it's good though, Shola.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think that's a good feeling in a way that we have because we, while it does maybe create some anger in us, it's because we want to do good.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: So I think that is, and again, there I hope there's more people because I think people have become a lot more insensitive things and situations.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: The more bad we see, the more numb we get, and the less we care.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: And uh, I find myself like a couple weeks ago, I was thinking this.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: I was like, man, there's certain things now that don't even they don't even trigger an emotion from me anymore like they used to, because I see it so much.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Um that's the thing.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Chris, I'm gonna just I gotta I just gotta jump in, man, because you're saying something, you're really hitting something really hard that is so important to me.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: I believe that we have to stop confusing what's common with what's normal, right?
27:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, common people, people screaming at little kids and cursing them out at youth soccer games or whatever, people cutting people off in traffic, that's common, but it's not normal to treat people like this.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: It's just not.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: It's common, yes, normal, no.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: And then what you said earlier, I just want to really highlight because I think you're saying something really, really powerful.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: The fact that this stuff makes us angry, I tell this people all the time.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: It's like you, we should find the stuff that makes us angry.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: And then instead of just being angry and being problem pointers, like, oh, these people suck.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: Why are they like this?
27:33
SPEAKER_01: People are so rude.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: No, dude, enough.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Do something, be a problem solver.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: So, like, if something makes you really, really angry and you're seeing it a lot, then it is up to us to do something about it.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: So the thing is, yeah, these things pissed me off to no end.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: So instead, I'm like, all right, instead of being anti-something, I gotta be for something.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Like instead of being against this behavior, like Mother Teresa, it's funny that my nickname is Brother Teresa, but because Mother Teresa said it best, yo, I am not going to your anti-war rally.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: But if you're going to a peace rally, I'll roll.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: She didn't word it that way, but that's her idea.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: She'll go to a peace rally.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: She's not going to your anti-war rally.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm angry about these really unkind behaviors, but instead of perseverating on those unkind behaviors, I'm focusing my energy on how I can find the offset that through kindness, through civility, and through some thoughtfulness.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: That's right, man.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, hopefully, and I think it is, but hopefully the the work and the energy that you're putting out there will inspire people to take action in a positive way to continue getting that ball rolling of being nicer to people and being nicer in certain situations and communicating in a more respectful way.
28:40
SPEAKER_00: Because man, yeah, over the last five, ten years and and and more recent, just the language people use towards each other, it's it's sad.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: And and and it does suck too.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: I I I try to stay off social media with limitations.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: If there's something that I know is not good, I'm like, I don't I don't need that in my life.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to see it.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to contribute.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't need those feelings boiling up in me.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna just erase that and hopefully more people too.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: But Shola, to kind of like spin this towards the end of the conversation in a really positive way, you've got a ton of books behind you, which is awesome, including yours.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: I think it's very cool that you again, you're an author now and on a very good topic, and I I'm promoting your book.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give this one away now that I've read it to someone else, my part of the Books for Guys community, and keep keep sharing your story.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you, brother.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious to know what are some books that have had an impact on you personally.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I know, tough question.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see all those books back there.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: And I know it's tough because at different points in life, books mean certain things, but you know, if there's a book or two you like to talk about with with others, what what are those?
29:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: So it's funny.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: I am such a book nerd.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: You you I'm so glad you slid in something into that question.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: That's like it does depend on kind of the season that you're in, so to speak.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, I'll just uh cut me off, Chris, if I keep going, man.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: Because I mean, I'm doing my best to try to keep it tight.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: There are just so many books that I love, and it's really, really hard for me to narrow them down.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: I am a huge, not not not a big, I'm an enormous fan of stoic philosophy.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: Like it's a little over the top how much I love it.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: Ryan Holiday could write, hey, I'm going to take the phone book from some town in Idaho and put it into a I would be sleeping outside of a bookstore to wait to get it.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: Like, there's not every single thing that he's written, well, the stoic philosophy stuff is behind me.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: So like I've read every single one of those.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm probably into the point where I'm close to reading all of his books a hundred times, over a hundred times.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, I cannot say enough about that.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: His way of looking at the world and his ability to storytell through history and and to really bring it down to a very to take things way back from whether it's happening way back in like the Marcus Aurelius days to like even times with like Lincoln and and and certain generals and sports figures and current figures, and it's just a brilliant stuff.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: So his most recent recent book, Wisdom Take Work, I I just love his stuff so much.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that I would I cannot recommend his stuff enough.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: Start with the obstacles the way.
31:17
SPEAKER_01: There's a new 10-year anniversary edition that's out.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: So highly recommend that.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I actually made a post on that book this morning.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Woo! Did you?
31:23
SPEAKER_01: I gotta check it out, man.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I can't say I mean, it's just life-changing stuff.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the dude is just brilliant in a way he's able to help make it work and be accessible to all.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: So I love his stuff.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Another book that hits me at all seasons is Stephen Pressfield's The War of Art.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: And I, I mean, if anyone's listening to this who's a creative who's like, I have ideas to share, but I don't know if anyone's gonna listen or anyone's gonna care.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Just get that book.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: It's right behind me.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: And I swear to you, you can probably read it in an afternoon.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: It's meant to be pretty.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Whereas the stoic philosophy books through Ryan Holiday, you should be sitting with and really digesting.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: So, so powerful.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: I can't say enough about that.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Another book that I think is really, really great is like this book Cast by Isabel Wilkerson Wilkerson.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: It was one of the most powerful books I've ever read on just how why we're so divided right now.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: And it's like it's so interesting because she doesn't spend a whole lot of time talking about race.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: It's talking about caste, like this really kind of invisible force that kind of separates people from each other.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: And because there's people of the same race who are divided, right?
32:32
SPEAKER_01: So she takes this idea in in such a powerful, accessible way.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: And this woman is, I don't know, maybe the best writer I've ever read.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she just has an ability with words that will just leave you captivated on the page.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: And like every single time I write, I'm like, I think I'm I feel like I'm a pretty good writer.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: And I read her stuff, I'm like, oh, there's levels to this stuff.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Good lord.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: She's so good.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Chris, I I I when I get off this interview, I'm gonna start like throwing things around my house, like, oh my gosh, why do you think about this book?
33:02
SPEAKER_01: Why?
33:03
SPEAKER_01: Because there's so many books that I love that I feel like I'm leaving off the table.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: But just for the sake of brevity, like Ryan Holiday stuff, Stephen Pressfield's book, and then Isabel Rupertson's cast are just three books that I must read.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: No, those are great.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: I love books like that that really make you think.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: And your book does the same thing.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: I was spending time going through it and just thinking through situations and the way I communicate.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: And I was I was checking myself.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, okay, like doing better here, need to do better here.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Story of my life too.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: It's all practice, but but your book was the same way.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: It was making me think, it was making me work on things.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I love books like that that you recommended that do the same thing.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Where you're, you know, you're just like, huh, it's an interesting thought.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Just just get you're intellectually thinking and and getting out of all the you know normal day-to-day stuff that we deal with.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: So Shola, man, this conversation's been a long time coming.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: It has been.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: I know it succeeded everything I could have imagined.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: And again, just your positivity and your energy and what you put out there.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Everyone needs to go follow Shola on his socials, and we'll make sure and include those in the episode.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: But if if nothing else, spend a little time reading Shola's book or or watching what Shola posts, because I guarantee you it will leave you with something positive or it'll challenge you in a positive way to improve.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: And so, man, Shola, again, can't thank you enough for coming on the Books for Guys podcast and and having and being as impactful as I thought.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: Like I said, exceed what I thought.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: And I just really appreciate you taking the time to do this.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: Man, first of all, thanks.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Before we go, I want to give you some props, man.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Chris, I think what you're doing for Books for Guys is so important.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Getting fellow dudes who are book enthusiasts, and there's oftentimes weird energy around guys who read for whatever, which is so strange, but that's another topic, maybe round two of this podcast.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: But the ones who sit or introspective and take the time to learn, I'm so grateful that we have dudes like this in the world.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: So for being able to amplify your pop, your platform and kindly allow me to get a little sliver of time on your platform is super, super cool because we need more dudes who are willing to do this.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: And uh, I'm grateful, man.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for having me on.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, man.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: You're you're a part of the community now and in our mission, and we appreciate the support.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: And so thanks again, Shola.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: This has been awesome.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: Likewise, brother.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: Appreciate you, man.