Latest / Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast / Ep. 71: From managing Alanis, Beyoncé, & Mariah's millions to addiction & recovery - Jonathan’s story

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Ep. 71: From managing Alanis, Beyoncé, & Mariah's millions to addiction & recovery - Jonathan’s story · Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast

• 0:00
  OK, it is Showtime. We did about 100 sound checks
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  and here we are. Finally, it's my fault.
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  Episode 71 of Adventures and Adversity.
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  This is a podcast where we feature real people who tell
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  true stories, essentially about how they have turned life's
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  adversity in its many, many forms into an adventure.
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  And I always say, and I've learned that that adventure is
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  actually the life that we're living every day.
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  So with that, I wanted to introduce and thank you so much
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  for joining Jonathan Schwartz. Thank you.
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  It's my pleasure to be here with you today.
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  Thank you so much. Yes, and I can already tell how
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  kind you are because you've been so patient.
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  I maybe had him do 17 sound check because I couldn't figure
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  out the microphone. So we're just working through
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  those little technical things. But I'm very, very grateful to
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  have you on. And, and I always say anyone who
• 1:03
  comes on the podcast, you, whether you like it or not,
• 1:06
  you're now part of the adventures and adversity family.
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  And I mean that in that, you know, I, I really want this to
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  be a place where people just talk authentically about life
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  and the things they've learned, the mistakes they've made.
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  And so it's just kind of creates this place where anyone who's
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  listening knows that this is a place where they're going to
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  learn something and not feel, not feel alone in what they're
• 1:33
  going through, You know, because we all have it.
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  We all have adversity. Absolutely.
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  So with that, I'm going to, and I said this last time, I'm going
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  to stop talking at some point. I like to just introduce my
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  guests a little bit. But you, you have quite a story
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  and so does everybody, right? But I think there's something
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  about your story and the, I think the word that comes to
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  mind for me is courage. Courage to share it, courage to
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  open yourself up to criticism, to judgement, which we all, I
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  think as humans are kind of like I just.
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  And then what I really commend you for is taking that really
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  difficult situation that that you have very openly talked
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  about, which we'll get into. And you're like, how can I make
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  this into something that's going to help people?
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  Yes. And like, that's cool because
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  it's easy to give up after you go through stuff like that,
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  right? Absolutely.
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  So with that, oh, go ahead. No, please.
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  And but you know, and obviously there's a portion of your life
• 2:44
  that you're that was very public and that adversity.
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  But I'm always, I've learned on this show that that's there's so
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  many chapters and there's so much adversity that probably LED
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  up to that that you now know how to handle afterwards in a
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  different way. So if you don't mind, I would
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  love to kind of go back to the beginning of growing up and all
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  of that. And I think we actually have
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  something in common. You're from upstate New York,
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  right? I certainly am.
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  Are you? I was born in Buffalo.
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  I know people aren't like, oh, beautiful.
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  Yes, I I grew up in the Catskills.
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  OK, yes. And yeah, my dad's actually
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  Buffalo born and raised, like still, you know, Buffalo Bills,
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  like still like, but yeah. OK, so tell me about your, your
• 3:42
  childhood. And I know a little bit, but I'd
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  love for for our audience to kind of get to know you a little
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  bit. Sure.
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  Grew up, as I said earlier, in the Catskills.
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  Father left me and my younger brother and mother when I was
• 3:56
  four years old. It forced my mom to take three
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  jobs and put a roof over our head, but, you know, food in our
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  mouths and clothes on our back. And it was definitely
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  instability in terms of like moving from this house or that
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  house or this living environment or other.
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  But, you know, my mother was young.
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  She wasn't prepared to be a single parent.
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  Today. I, I understand that and respect
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  that. But during my childhood, you
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  know, I thought this is how a child is supposed to be brought
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  up with such instability and otherwise.
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  So my mom took out a lot of stress on me for that.
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  That was my trauma, trauma that I did not have the courage to
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  seek help for for almost 46 years.
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  There's a lot about my childhood I still do not remember.
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  I've worked with therapy, in therapy, excuse me doing EMDR
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  and that was effective. It's an effective modality, but
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  it was hard for me to kind of flush everything out.
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  But I'm no longer searching for the Y or the woo me and you
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  know, and use any of this as an excuse for all the the adversity
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  that I experienced in my life when there was that point in my
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  life where I can make choices. Yep, Yep.
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  Well, no, and I think it's the accountability is what I respect
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  a lot about you is that you, you, you're very transparent and
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  accountable and I think you really in the the episodes I was
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  listening to before and just your Instagram, I really love
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  how authentic you are when you talk about it.
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  I appreciate, but I do, I do. I am such a firm believer in
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  like your childhood really, really impacts your life.
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  Like it. And it doesn't mean you're not
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  accountable for the decisions you make later.
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  But it's once you start going and doing that inner child work
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  and the therapy and the EMDR and the all the things I like, love
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  doing, you're like, whoa, yeah, OK.
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  I see, I see. I see why that might have been a
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  problem later on, right? Absolutely, absolutely.
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  Well, there's clinical evidence that supports that.
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  And now in my new career, which we'll talk about later, I'm sure
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  you know that I've learned that, you know, adverse childhood
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  experiences can carry, you know, you know those experiences and I
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  certainly did into my own adolescence and adulthood.
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  And while I say that a lot of times people say, well, it
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  sounds like you're just making an excuse.
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  No, I actually don't make an excuse for my experiences, but I
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  am transparent today, which I wasn't in previous years.
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  I do believe in authenticity and today I believe that asking for
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  help is a strength. But for me, unfortunately, I
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  didn't believe it was a strength during my dark period of my
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  life. But I'm proud to say that if I
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  could overcome it through adversity and resiliency, I'm
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  sure most of your listeners listening with any challenges, I
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  hope can embrace the challenge like I do as now an opportunity.
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  Yeah. And so you, so you, you're
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  growing up. And if if anyone listening to
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  this, they themselves had, you know, some abuse in their
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  childhood or some traumatic experience, or maybe they have a
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  niece or nephew or a just somebody that they're trying to
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  guide through as a young person. If you look back on that time,
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  and I know I'm sure there's blurry times, obviously, but if
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  you could have given you what you needed at that time, does
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  anything come to mind? Like what?
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  Especially when a parent leaves, right, like a dad, that's
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  really, really difficult. And while nobody can fill that
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  place, like what? What were you seeking as a child
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  that that if you kind of think back?
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  I mean using adult words today, which I did not know existed as
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  a child, I would say I was missing love, learning how to
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  feel loved, be loved. And then perhaps I would have
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  learned how to, to transfer that love from me to, to others in my
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  life as I, you know, as I grew older, if you will, nurturing is
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  a super important. I think just have, not having a
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  role model growing up really impacted me a lot.
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  I didn't really have anyone in my life.
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  My mother's father, my grandfather was probably the
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  biggest role model growing up. He was just a unique man.
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  He graduated high school when he was 15, but he had to give up
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  his career or his college because he had to take care of
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  his parents during that, you know, those that decade.
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  So I really admired his resiliency and his commitment to
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  help his family and put himself second.
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  But I really didn't have, like, anybody in my life that I'd
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  looked up to. And so I felt like I was in
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  survival mode most of my childhood, and then certainly
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  into my active years of addiction that remained my
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  default. Well, and you're what I've
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  learned about the body too. Like you, you were probably in
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  like a fight or flight state for so long too.
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  You know, you're so it's it, it changes everything.
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  I mean, I just can't believe how much your body holds.
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  I didn't know that your tissue and your your cells hold trauma.
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  I'm like, wait, what? I was like, I don't unders.
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  I don't. I thought it's all just like in
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  your head, you know, you just thought it's like, I'm here, but
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  my, even my therapist, she's like, that's in your tissue and
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  stuff. And you're like, yeah, OK, yeah.
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  So no, thank you for for, for that.
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  I always just there's so many kids and moms and dads, single
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  moms, single dads, that they're just doing the best they can,
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  you know, one day at a time to pay the bills, especially now
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  everything is just people are struggling.
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  So I but what's good to know is that you know it, it's possible
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  to pursue through that, like you know that kind of childhood,
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  right? It's something that you can
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  revisit and try to heal. Obviously try to.
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  Absolutely. And for me, unfortunately, it
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  took longer than I wish it had. But you know what?
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  It happened when it was supposed to happen for me to hit my rock
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  bottom and to learn from all of my life experiences, the good,
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  bad and the indifferent, and to find the resilience in the drive
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  internally for me was really a a nice crossroad in my own
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  journey. Yeah.
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  And it was super important. Like I often say like, and it's
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  the truth. Like I don't live in my past,
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  but I don't forget my past. Yeah, that's great.
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  And I heard, had heard you say that on a previous podcast and I
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  was telling my husband about it. I was like, I love that.
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  You're like, you can't live there.
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  You just can't. Like how are you supposed if you
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  live there? And you know, I have things in
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  my past too that I'm just like, I can't believe I did that.
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  And and even my husband will be like, what are you going to do?
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  Like you have to move forward. It's so hard though sometimes,
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  you know? Yeah.
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  And in the 12 step program, we don't like, we don't even say we
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  have to anymore. It's like we get to because
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  that's that's like such a beautiful word that feels like
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  in a sense of empowerment, right?
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  Versus we don't do well, I'll speak for myself like I didn't
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  do well with people telling me I had to do this or I have to do
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  that because I'm so in I was so insecure back in, you know,
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  earlier in my life that now I can substitute that word with I
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  get to do it because it's a privilege and honor to actually
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  behave congruent with pro recovery behavior.
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  Versus I don't expect people to believe the words out of my
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  mouth anymore. It's through my actions.
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  Beautiful, beautiful. It's I'm, I'm actually never
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  going to look at when someone says you have to move forward.
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  That's always going to turn out. You get to move forward.
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  You literally get to create something totally new that's
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  really, really beautiful. Because I know I guarantee
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  someone listening to this would like to move forward with
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  something, maybe forgetting something and that they get to
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  not. I have to cause I've It's hard
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  to heal when you feel like you have to heal.
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  That's. Right, right.
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  Like to heal. You get to like take another
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  breath. You get to, you know, gosh, so
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  many, so many. I've already feeling all the
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  inspiration already, but, and again, I probably sound like a a
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  stalker, but I've just I know this about you because I've
• 12:40
  been, you know, listening to you to to prepare for this.
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  But so you, you grew up and then you ended up, you went to
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  college, right? You.
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  But I think you you spent some time on the East Coast and West
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  Coast for college, right? I did because that instability
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  of any living environment for me continued in college.
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  So I went to three different colleges.
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  I started out at CW Post in Long Island freshman year.
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  I then transferred to SUNY Albany in New York.
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  And that didn't work out for me. And so I ultimately called my
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  mom and she was living in San Francisco.
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  And I asked her if I can come finish my last year of year and
• 13:21
  a half of college, can I live with her and my stepdad.
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  And they said absolutely. And so my, my final school was
• 13:27
  SF State, which was, it was, it was really a good experience for
• 13:32
  me. It allowed me to get a job
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  working in the financial district when I graduated.
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  So you know, what things worked out for me the way they were
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  supposed to. You know, when I think about my
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  life today, I'm in a really beautiful place in this moment.
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  It's amazing. That's amazing.
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  And I think that's wonderful to hear.
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  I think because you've you've been through quite a lot and it
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  just, again, it's like a testament to I think the human
• 13:58
  spirit when you really kind of commit to changing.
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  And I think the biggest thing I've been hearing in all of the
• 14:06
  episodes I've heard with you is the this asking for help is a
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  strength that keeps coming up like you're here and you're
• 14:15
  enjoying life because you had the courage to ask for that
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  help, right? So in listening to some of the
• 14:21
  other episodes as well, it sounds like, and you were, were
• 14:25
  you always sort of accounting minded, numbers minded?
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  Like, did you know that that was the area you wanted to go into?
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  Yes, absolutely. I was not a great student in
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  high school. I was an average student in
• 14:39
  college. I never took my education
• 14:41
  seriously because, again, I still hadn't dealt with my
• 14:43
  trauma. And I had so much, you know, I
• 14:47
  couldn't. I was financially unable to
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  socialize with my fraternity brothers.
• 14:51
  You know, I grew up poor, but academically I never excelled.
• 14:55
  But accounting was absolutely the only thing that really I
• 14:58
  loved because to me it was black and white and I had 7 cousins in
• 15:04
  my family that were Cpas. So that sort of helped motivate
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  me to go in that direction. And yes, still to this day, it's
• 15:11
  probably the only subject I learned.
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  Although as I'm getting older, I certainly enjoy reading a lot
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  more than about the diverse, all the diversity that exists out
• 15:19
  there for us to, you know, gain knowledge from.
• 15:21
  Yeah, yeah, It's so funny. Accounting and math is pretty
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  much my worst nightmare, say that I like had tutors, had like
• 15:30
  anxiety before every test. I'm like English major nerdy,
• 15:34
  like I'm like, there's more than one answer and let's write about
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  it, you know, whereas other other people, yeah, that's like,
• 15:42
  you know, math. But yeah, OK, so you find
• 15:45
  yourself, you're kind of, you were actually the bookie, right
• 15:48
  for your fraternity. Yes.
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  So I yes, that's, that was the first entree into gambling for
• 15:55
  me. Yeah, it goes back to me wanting
• 15:57
  to be, you know, welcomed into the fraternity brothers social
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  scene because they came from affluent families in Long
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  Island. And here I am a country bumpkin
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  from the Catskills. And I, I just came up with this
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  concept that like, why don't I ask a fraternity brother if he
• 16:15
  wants to be a bookie? We'll bookie, we'll be the
• 16:17
  bookies for the Greek system. And we became the bookies for
• 16:22
  two weeks and we lost like $10,000.
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  And I was responsible for five and he was responsible for the
• 16:28
  other five. And I couldn't pay the five
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  South. Now the pattern of me like
• 16:32
  escaping and going somewhere else and leaving someone behind
• 16:36
  that to take on my debt just was was, you know, in hindsight was
• 16:40
  just completely wrong. And, you know, he had to take
• 16:46
  jobs just to pay his debt. And not only his debt, but mine,
• 16:49
  which still to this day I feel terrible about.
• 16:52
  But that was like the first entre because most bookies don't
• 16:56
  lose. They know how to kind of place,
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  you know, accept bets that no matter who wins or whatever the
• 17:01
  outcome is, at best, they're 5050 and they're getting their
• 17:05
  10% vig. But we didn't even have we were
• 17:07
  just so naive. We just figured we were big
• 17:09
  shots and we could just win money.
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  And so do you remember and, and to me that that wanting to be
• 17:17
  accepted, you're, I mean, that that makes sense to me.
• 17:20
  Like as somebody who I mean, you're, you're, you're coming
• 17:25
  from a lot, especially, you know, you're just trying to fit
• 17:29
  in with your peers. And that's a way where you can
• 17:31
  sort of feel that sense of like belonging, like I'm kind of
• 17:35
  cool. I'm this right.
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  And and I think at that age, we're all seeking that and
• 17:40
  probably still now, right. Do you remember was there,
• 17:44
  because I know you had a gambling addiction.
• 17:47
  Do you remember feeling sort of that initial like rush of was
• 17:51
  that the first time you're like, oh, this is this is kind of
• 17:55
  exciting. Was that the first gambling type
• 17:58
  thing? Yeah, it was, it was the first
• 18:00
  of, of, you know, another one that followed and then obviously
• 18:04
  my the gambling that was my ultimate demise.
• 18:07
  But gambling really historically and or you know, during that
• 18:11
  period where I became a compulsive gambler and literally
• 18:14
  addicted, I never received like or felt a dopamine rush.
• 18:19
  It was something that I was chasing the money so that, so
• 18:25
  that I could repay the gambling debt even when I was even in
• 18:29
  college, I was just chasing it so that I could at that point
• 18:32
  hang out with, with the, with my, you know, peers.
• 18:37
  And then the second time I did it, I was working for my
• 18:40
  cousin's firm and his partner said, what do you want to place
• 18:44
  a bet? I placed the bet.
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  I lost $3000 then. And I was still a young staff
• 18:49
  accountant now at this point. And his partner was kind enough,
• 18:52
  my cousin's partner was kind enough to pay for that debt.
• 18:55
  So, you know, I'm gambling and I can't afford to pay it now later
• 18:59
  on in my life, you know, I become, I make, you know, become
• 19:03
  a partner and entertainment business management firm.
• 19:05
  And in the first decade of that, I was doing well financially and
• 19:09
  felt good about myself. And for me that, you know, once
• 19:14
  that gambling started, it was, you know, it was silly because I
• 19:19
  had, you know, high net worth and I, I just didn't take the
• 19:23
  money from myself. I chose to take it from clients
• 19:26
  and steal their monies. And you know, that's that's why
• 19:30
  I'm, I'm on this podcast today to be transparent with all of.
• 19:33
  Them. Yeah, well, and thank you for
• 19:36
  sharing and thank you for I always, you know, I know you've
• 19:40
  told this story and, and you're comfortable telling it, but I
• 19:43
  don't discount that it's, it takes a lot of courage to come
• 19:47
  on here and talk about it. And I think it's really easy for
• 19:50
  people to just be like, oh, I would never do that.
• 19:53
  Or oh, and, and I just, I see it differently.
• 19:57
  I, I think the fact that you're opening up to try to help people
• 20:02
  by like sharing so authentically is kind of reminds me that we're
• 20:07
  all human and that if you're not careful, you can end up in some
• 20:11
  stuff that you maybe never thought you would ever end up
• 20:14
  in. Right.
• 20:16
  Like I right, absolutely. I never thought I would violate
• 20:19
  my fiduciary responsibility to my clients or make these poor
• 20:23
  choices that can hurt countless people, including my three
• 20:27
  beautiful sons and the time my wife and so many other people
• 20:30
  that I hurt. I never thought I would be that
• 20:32
  person. But, and there's no excuse for
• 20:36
  it. I mean, that's just the fact I
• 20:37
  didn't take into consideration the negative consequences of my
• 20:41
  choices. And as a result of that, there
• 20:45
  were severe consequences, all of which I deserved.
• 20:48
  And I do own it because I want to advocate for, on behalf of
• 20:53
  those out there struggling to take personal accountability for
• 20:56
  their actions, to not make excuses, to be authentic and
• 21:00
  transparent. I don't believe that I became
• 21:02
  authentic until I hit that rock bottom and felt the
• 21:06
  consequences. You know, I can relate to that
• 21:12
  so much. That is so true.
• 21:14
  It's like you're rock bottom, whatever that is for you in
• 21:18
  whatever, whether it's like a marriage, an addiction, whatever
• 21:23
  it is, right, Mental health stuff.
• 21:25
  If you get up off that floor, like you're getting up, like
• 21:29
  stripped of all the stuff you can't, it's almost like a
• 21:35
  beautiful being real. You become so much more real.
• 21:42
  It it's a it's. And for me, like I didn't love
• 21:45
  the way I got there either after this like narcissistic
• 21:47
  relationship. But I can tell you I love the
• 21:50
  person I am now. Absolutely.
• 21:53
  It wouldn't have been the way that I wanted to to realize
• 21:56
  that, but tough shit, right? Like I made those choices too,
• 22:00
  right, Right. You know, So I just, I, I, I
• 22:05
  think we all have different forms of adversity and then we
• 22:08
  all need to take personal accountability for our choices,
• 22:13
  both small choices everyday and big choices.
• 22:16
  So, and I think you alluded to it, you ended up, so for those
• 22:22
  of you who aren't aware, you were a business manager for like
• 22:26
  high net worth individuals. You, you, you had learned the
• 22:29
  accounting through through college, through I think your
• 22:32
  cousin's firm. So you were sponge, right?
• 22:35
  You had mentioned that you were just learning everything.
• 22:39
  One thing you mentioned, you know, many people are so dazzled
• 22:44
  by these celebrities, right? Like someone you know, all the
• 22:47
  people you mentioned that when you were working with these high
• 22:50
  net net worth individuals that didn't, you weren't starstruck
• 22:55
  like that. No, I absolutely wasn't.
• 22:58
  And I often say that that's why I think they hired me because I,
• 23:03
  you know, I don't want to generalize, but for purposes of
• 23:06
  this conversation, unfortunately, most, many people
• 23:09
  in Hollywood are very phony. And here I am.
• 23:13
  I come from the East Coast. I'm a little bit more blunt.
• 23:16
  I got a little bit of that New York, you know, swag where we
• 23:20
  really just direct. And I know I don't think that I,
• 23:24
  I certainly was not enamoured by them and that, and I don't know
• 23:27
  if that was because maybe I was starting to grow an ego and my
• 23:31
  ego perhaps played a role in just saying like, hey, they're
• 23:34
  just a human being like I am, You know, like they take a
• 23:38
  shower probably the same way I take a shower.
• 23:39
  Or they often say they put their shoes on the way I put my shoes
• 23:42
  on. But that I, I honestly could say
• 23:46
  that they would just, I was very fortunate to have great clients.
• 23:50
  That's I want to start with that.
• 23:52
  And none of the clients that I embezzled money from deserved
• 23:55
  it. And even the ones that I didn't
• 23:57
  embezzle from, I still embarrass them and they didn't deserve
• 24:00
  that either. But I, through my adversity and
• 24:06
  through my resiliency, as you said moments ago, I, I often say
• 24:11
  I am proud of who I've become and who I am becoming.
• 24:15
  Because what that insinuates is as in this moment, I'm proud of
• 24:19
  myself for who I've become and how I embraced all the
• 24:23
  adversities and viewed them like opportunities.
• 24:26
  But the becoming part means I still have progress in myself to
• 24:32
  grow and that's why I love my 12 step community because the whole
• 24:38
  thing is about progress, not perfection.
• 24:40
  Yeah, yeah. So you and so you get into the,
• 24:46
  you know, high net worth individual management, you're
• 24:49
  kind of you're feeling confident, but you had mentioned
• 24:53
  you were out very outwardly confident, right, outwardly.
• 24:57
  And I think again, a lot of people can relate to this
• 25:00
  outwardly, everything's great. I got the this, I got checking
• 25:04
  the boxes, you know, putting on a happy face.
• 25:09
  But you mentioned that there was when you started embezzling, it
• 25:15
  was really hard for you to look in the mirror.
• 25:18
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 25:19
  The first time I embezzled first dollars from a client, I just
• 25:24
  again, I sat by myself and said why would you make such a bad
• 25:28
  choice? In that moment, I didn't even
• 25:30
  think about continuing with that behavior.
• 25:33
  But with with gambling, what happens is you, and this is what
• 25:38
  I alluded to earlier, I'm like, it's OK, I'll just borrow it,
• 25:42
  not take it and I'll pay it back next week or whatever.
• 25:45
  And that next week grew to over six years not paying them back
• 25:50
  until ultimately I was caught for my criminal behavior.
• 25:55
  But yeah, it's a it was very, very, very, very difficult to
• 26:00
  look at myself in the mirror to I had to present to the outer
• 26:04
  world that I was Superman. But deep down inside, I was
• 26:09
  still very much insecure and not comfortable in my own skin.
• 26:14
  But nobody knew that except myself.
• 26:18
  I didn't have, I wasn't comfortable at that point in my
• 26:21
  life to ask for help. And if there's something that I
• 26:24
  could look back on and there are many things I could look back on
• 26:26
  and wish I would have changed, I can't change that from
• 26:29
  yesterday, but I can certainly change that today and going
• 26:33
  forward. And so that was my, that that
• 26:36
  was, I never liked gambling. I and I don't know people
• 26:40
  sometimes when like you said earlier in the introduction,
• 26:42
  like I'm very happy to put myself out there.
• 26:45
  I'm no longer seeking external validation like I did when I
• 26:48
  was, you know, in my addiction. Validation for me so simply
• 26:54
  comes from myself internally. And so, but, but I also
• 26:57
  understand that when I put myself out there the way I'm
• 27:00
  comfortable doing, which is like I am with you today, there's
• 27:04
  going to be 50% of the people who don't believe that I'm
• 27:06
  humble. There's going to be 50% of the
• 27:08
  people that want to call me a name.
• 27:10
  And I understand that. And that's their choice and I
• 27:13
  respect their judgment. They have a right to feel what
• 27:17
  they believe they heard in my voice here today or my body
• 27:20
  language, as you said earlier, and I'm OK with that.
• 27:25
  I'm not, I rarely look at comments, but I do enjoy getting
• 27:29
  DMS on my Instagram saying the opposite of that.
• 27:32
  And how can I help them? And I'm going to help them.
• 27:36
  Anyone who asks for help, I'm going to be there to help them
• 27:38
  to not make the same mistakes that I've made.
• 27:42
  It's such a relatable I I commend you for getting to a
• 27:46
  place where that validation because for me especially that
• 27:50
  has been any time I've wanted to kind of ditch the podcast, it's
• 27:54
  been I got a couple trolls or that troll was really specific
• 27:59
  and maybe they're right. And some of the things are just
• 28:02
  like, damn, you are mean, but are you right?
• 28:05
  Maybe you're right. And then my husband will be
• 28:07
  like, are you serious? And I'm like, I don't know, you
• 28:10
  know, But so that tell I have more work to do to get there.
• 28:14
  But every time I press on and, you know, hit publish or talk,
• 28:20
  it's a victory where you respect yourself for being.
• 28:24
  I'm putting me out there. And of course there's going to
• 28:27
  be someone who doesn't like it, of course, right?
• 28:31
  Where a couple years ago I think that would literally cripple me.
• 28:36
  A troll comment would send me into like a deep I'd be like
• 28:40
  really in trouble. And now I'm like, that was good.
• 28:43
  Like it's actually like Ryan, look at this one.
• 28:45
  It says I'm a desperate like housewife wannabe, whatever.
• 28:49
  I'm like, oh, that's nice. That's actually funny.
• 28:52
  So I'm it's amazing when you start to ask yourself who who am
• 28:57
  I? What am I trying to get out of
• 28:59
  this? Like someone to be like great
• 29:01
  podcast. I approve of you even though
• 29:07
  they have their own problems. Like you know what I'm saying?
• 29:10
  Right, right. Well, you know, I've had two
• 29:13
  lessons in my life where I learned why not to judge a book
• 29:18
  by its cover. And when I was working in San
• 29:20
  Francisco in the financial district and living in Marin
• 29:22
  County early in my career before moving to LA to get into
• 29:25
  business management, Monday through Friday, I would take
• 29:28
  the, the, they have great public transportation.
• 29:31
  So I would take the bus from Marin right into or the ferry
• 29:35
  right into the financial district.
• 29:37
  And Monday through Thursday, I wore a suit because that was the
• 29:40
  dress code. But on Friday, my employer
• 29:43
  allowed us to be business casual.
• 29:46
  So Monday through Thursday in the suit, I'm the same person,
• 29:50
  but I'm wearing a suit. They move over, they allow me to
• 29:53
  sit next to them on Fridays when I'm not wearing a jacket and
• 29:57
  maybe I'm wearing a button down with jeans or slacks.
• 30:00
  They those same people would not move over and allow me to sit
• 30:04
  there. And that was really an eye
• 30:05
  opening experience for me as a young adult at that time to
• 30:09
  realize, wow, our society does judge a book by its cover.
• 30:14
  And again, even though I was naive that that existed, it was
• 30:18
  such a great learning experience for me in on so many levels as
• 30:21
  I've moved forward in my life. And that same experience
• 30:26
  happened when I entered prison, actually.
• 30:29
  Where just going to ask you about that like that, like that
• 30:33
  must have. Sorry to interrupt.
• 30:34
  I just that's got to be a transformative experience in so
• 30:39
  many ways. Yes, it was.
• 30:42
  And in prison there's a lot of diversification, different
• 30:46
  religions, different races and just different people with so
• 30:50
  different socioeconomic status or otherwise.
• 30:53
  And I learned there that when you really take the time to get
• 30:58
  to know someone you. I realized, at least for myself,
• 31:03
  that when I'm speaking to a drug dealer in prison and hearing how
• 31:07
  much they love their children or they love the mother of their
• 31:11
  children, that's the same values that I had or had when I or have
• 31:17
  today. But where you love, you know,
• 31:19
  their, their value system aligned with mine.
• 31:21
  I guess in short, is what I'm trying to say, despite the
• 31:24
  different upbringing that we both had.
• 31:27
  And you know, that really helped me to reduce any judgment that I
• 31:33
  may still have for other people. But now I really take the time
• 31:36
  to get to know most people that are in my life.
• 31:40
  And and it's, it's such a great reminder because it judgement
• 31:46
  and we have no idea like how people got there.
• 31:50
  And I think, you know, it's a humbling experience to to just
• 31:59
  understand that like people make mistakes and I just you
• 32:05
  actually, you spent, was it, how many years did you spend?
• 32:09
  Did you end up serving? So I was sentenced to six years
• 32:12
  in federal prison and I did 30-4 months.
• 32:16
  I was left let out early because of COVID and they required that
• 32:20
  I spend 16 months on home confinement with an ankle
• 32:22
  monitor as part of the agreement to be released early.
• 32:26
  And then it followed with three years of probation.
• 32:30
  So it's nice to no longer be on the watchdog list, if you will.
• 32:36
  But I still face challenges every day.
• 32:38
  Yeah, mostly financial challenges because the assets
• 32:42
  that I once had, I don't have any more.
• 32:45
  Sure. But again, I could sit with the
• 32:49
  the pile of bills and stare at them all day and play the victim
• 32:51
  role, or I could sit with them and be proactive and see how I
• 32:54
  can make a dent in each of my liabilities that I still have
• 32:58
  today from the past. Yeah, well, and I think you know
• 33:02
  it, it's it's something that everyone can kind of take from
• 33:08
  your story is that you're accountable for your behavior
• 33:12
  and you can experience the consequences of your choices and
• 33:17
  that there is life after that. Like it's something that, you
• 33:24
  know, obviously going into prison, if you don't mind kind
• 33:27
  of talking a little bit about that.
• 33:29
  Do you remember, like, that first couple of days?
• 33:34
  Like, was that just like, how mentally did you get through
• 33:37
  that? Like, was it?
• 33:39
  So? Yeah, like.
• 33:40
  Yes, the first couple days I did.
• 33:42
  The first couple six months I didn't really accept where I
• 33:45
  was. I was crying every day today.
• 33:48
  I believe crying is cathartic but probably wasn't appropriate
• 33:50
  inside a prison with a bunch of guys.
• 33:52
  But that's what you said earlier.
• 33:56
  My body was signalling to my mind that it was time to cry and
• 33:59
  cathartic to cry today, I believe.
• 34:01
  But then it was slightly embarrassing, but it was
• 34:04
  uncontrollable. I was scared.
• 34:07
  I was counting the days out of a six year sentence, 72 months.
• 34:11
  And I was like, Oh my God, like I'm going to be here for the
• 34:13
  rest of my life. And so then a gentleman came up
• 34:16
  to me and he said you got to stop crying, Jonathan.
• 34:19
  That gentleman became one of my closest friends that I've met in
• 34:22
  my time and we still speak a lot both currently.
• 34:28
  But once I was able once and he said to me, stop counting the
• 34:31
  days. Besides, stop crying.
• 34:33
  Stop counting the days. And I said, OK, so I started
• 34:36
  counting the Super Bowls. So for every Super Bowl there
• 34:39
  was one year off of my sentence and so on and so forth.
• 34:43
  But I did embrace my opportunity in prison.
• 34:45
  What I mean by that is I ran a victim impact program.
• 34:48
  I helped inmates identify their victims and make maybe consider
• 34:52
  making amends to them and maybe talking nicer to your wife on
• 34:56
  the phone because I'm hearing you guys talk disrespectfully to
• 34:59
  your wife who deserves all the credit in the world, taking care
• 35:01
  of your kids while your choices LED you here.
• 35:05
  So that was very rewarding for me.
• 35:06
  And I taught accounting and I also took classes from smarter
• 35:10
  guys than me there. Then I learned a lot from them
• 35:12
  as well. So I read books, an enormous
• 35:15
  amount of books, books that I would never think to read.
• 35:17
  But I certainly picked up a healthy habit there and I
• 35:21
  exercised as best as I could and I just made the best of it.
• 35:25
  Yeah, you, it sounds like when you went from the you went into
• 35:29
  acceptance mode. That's really when the, the
• 35:32
  taking, accepting where you were and how can I make the most of
• 35:37
  my time here somewhere? I probably, it's probably hard
• 35:41
  to grasp even now that that that was a, a chapter in your life,
• 35:45
  you know, 'cause it's, it's just not something you think will
• 35:48
  happen. You know, that's not, not not in
• 35:51
  your, your life plan. But I think it's a humbling
• 35:55
  reminder that just I don't think anyone ever plans to end up
• 35:59
  there. And that to air is we're all
• 36:02
  human and we all make bad choices.
• 36:04
  That to different degrees, right?
• 36:07
  Absolutely, and you said 2 words that I adopt every day in my
• 36:10
  life and I don't like to use absolutes like every day.
• 36:12
  So I'll say most of the day my days.
• 36:14
  And one is acceptance right? Living in acceptance is a huge
• 36:18
  thing for people in recovery. I have long term recovery, but I
• 36:22
  don't ever want to become complacent.
• 36:24
  So acceptance happens for and surrendering is the sort of like
• 36:27
  the synonym to acceptance for us in recovery.
• 36:30
  So I surrender to my higher power on a daily basis for any
• 36:35
  challenges that I might confront or questions I have.
• 36:37
  And the other thing besides acceptance, forgot the word.
• 36:42
  I've got a little brain fog here, but it'll come back to me
• 36:45
  that you said that I also adopt all that's humility.
• 36:49
  You know, I brought ego into prison with me and I needed to
• 36:54
  find humility because humility allowed me to drop my ego and to
• 37:03
  live further in acceptance, but also gave me an opportunity to
• 37:06
  reflect on all the poor choices of my past.
• 37:10
  And so that the plan was when I would re enter society, I would
• 37:15
  be the best version of myself. Be that authentic person and be
• 37:21
  committed to helping my brothers and sisters in the 12 step
• 37:24
  community and anybody else that wants help.
• 37:27
  And think that became my calling is to really genuinely help
• 37:30
  people not make the same mistakes that I made and to give
• 37:34
  them the motivation they need to find inside their soul to find
• 37:38
  to overcome their adversity. When I commend your, your, your
• 37:44
  buddy, your friend he still talked to for kind of telling
• 37:48
  you that like you got to stop crying in a way, like you got to
• 37:52
  not, not you got to move forward.
• 37:55
  You get to stop, you get, you get to stop crying because you
• 37:58
  get to keep moving forward, right?
• 38:02
  But I can definitely relate to the physical release, like your
• 38:06
  body, it just needs to get rid of stuff, right?
• 38:10
  At some point, if you don't mind, I'd love to talk about.
• 38:14
  I think it's really cool what you did, helping other inmates
• 38:18
  make amends, helping them learn how to better themselves.
• 38:22
  What have you learned about making amends?
• 38:26
  We all have people that we've done.
• 38:29
  I certainly have some I've apologized to.
• 38:34
  I probably need to apologize tomorrow.
• 38:35
  I don't know. But what is your big lesson?
• 38:40
  What have you learned about accountability and then about
• 38:42
  forgiveness? You're all there.
• 38:46
  So forgiveness, we, you know, I, I sponsor a lot of guys, but
• 38:50
  even for myself, forgiveness isn't so much for the recipient.
• 38:54
  It's for peace of our own mind, right?
• 38:57
  Absent making amends and just seeking forgiveness is not going
• 39:01
  to bring peace and contentment and tranquility to our our
• 39:05
  mindset. And so in order to do that,
• 39:08
  we've got to rid ourselves. We get to rid ourselves of
• 39:10
  resentments by making amends to those that we harmed.
• 39:16
  When making amends to the that recipient will not 'cause he or
• 39:21
  she any further harm. So, so there are certain people
• 39:26
  that I would like to make amends to, but because it will likely
• 39:30
  cause them further harm, I have chosen not to under the
• 39:34
  direction of my higher power and my sponsor.
• 39:38
  But I think forgiveness is a big part.
• 39:40
  If you're in recovery, whether you're in recovery for one day
• 39:43
  or years, it's really important to learn forgiveness because if
• 39:49
  if we carry resentments, then we can go back to our old patterns
• 39:54
  and behaviors of yesterday. And if we do that, the
• 39:57
  consequences are going to be even more severe today.
• 40:01
  Yeah, it's, it's the big thing that keeps coming through is
• 40:05
  like the ego, right? The ego dropping that.
• 40:09
  And I think it's also important like, you know, if you're making
• 40:14
  amends with somebody, apologizing and obviously no
• 40:18
  matter how big or small your what you've done is, sometimes
• 40:23
  they accept it and sometimes they don't.
• 40:26
  Right. And, and like you said, it's if
• 40:30
  they accept it, that's great. But if they don't accept it, I
• 40:36
  think it, it's still a commendable and essential thing
• 40:40
  to do for yourself. And also just you're setting an
• 40:45
  example for others that like, it's OK to admit that you, you
• 40:52
  know, fucked up to be like, you know, I really, really screwed
• 40:57
  up and I'm really sorry and I'd really like to do better.
• 41:02
  And it's a noble thing to do to be able to apologize, you know?
• 41:07
  Absolutely. And it goes with like also in
• 41:09
  recovery. And I could talk about recovery
• 41:10
  all day. I'm just in love with the
• 41:12
  recovery community. Recovery is I always share with
• 41:15
  clients because now I'm a therapist with a specialization
• 41:18
  in addiction and trauma. So one thing I share with them
• 41:22
  is first, my life experience and people say, why do you do that?
• 41:24
  Because therapists should not self disclose unless they
• 41:28
  believe their experience can benefit the client.
• 41:30
  And because I work in treatment centers and I am working with
• 41:34
  people with substance use and mental health challenges, they
• 41:37
  want someone who's just not an academia therapist, but a
• 41:40
  therapist that shares the commonality that they
• 41:43
  experienced and that I can provide them with that
• 41:47
  commonality. But what I share with them,
• 41:49
  among many different coping skills, is that it's not healthy
• 41:52
  for someone in recovery to create an expectation.
• 41:56
  If we create an expectation and we do not accomplish that
• 42:02
  expectation, then what happens? We get angry, we get irritable,
• 42:06
  we spiral out of control. Now is that you're putting
• 42:09
  yourself at risk for a relapse. So rather than create an
• 42:12
  expectation, and you're right, like when you make amends, like
• 42:16
  when I make amends or my sponsees make amends, there
• 42:19
  shall be no expectation. You're doing it because it's
• 42:23
  probably the right thing to do. And regardless of, like you
• 42:27
  said, regardless of the recipient's response, you can
• 42:30
  look yourself in the mirror and say you did the best you could
• 42:33
  and you had the courage to make amends because amends aren't
• 42:36
  easy to make. They're challenging.
• 42:39
  So that's so we create goals. So that's what I encourage
• 42:42
  clients to do and what's SMART goals, which is, you know,
• 42:45
  specific, measurable and so on. And if you can make realistic
• 42:48
  goals, that's one thing, but please don't create expectations
• 42:54
  because there's if. Again, it's a very challenging
• 42:57
  for us in recovery to not accomplish what we want to
• 43:00
  accomplish. Yeah, when it comes back to that
• 43:03
  focus of loving yourself, right, Like if, if you probably what
• 43:08
  gets you into addiction, and please correct me if I'm wrong,
• 43:12
  different things for everybody. But a piece of that is needing
• 43:14
  that external validation. It's this whole you can't fill,
• 43:17
  right? Correct.
• 43:19
  And the drugs or whatever your addiction is, if it's gambling,
• 43:22
  if it's, I mean, there's many addictions, right?
• 43:24
  Compulsive shopping, exercising, gambling, drugs, food, you know,
• 43:30
  there's all the things and you are probably doing that to fill
• 43:35
  something. Then if you're apologizing to
• 43:38
  fill something that's still using external to fill
• 43:42
  something, you have to start filling from yourself.
• 43:45
  Like it's I finally get it. I mean, it took me 44 years.
• 43:49
  I'm like when people would say love yourself, I'm like, why?
• 43:53
  Why do you really need to like, isn't it better if someone else?
• 43:56
  I remember, I remember thinking, well, isn't it if someone else
• 43:58
  loves you, that's like proof. I'm like, oh, that's horrible.
• 44:02
  That's actually awful. That's really bad.
• 44:04
  Don't do that. You love you.
• 44:07
  That's that's, that's gonna fill the hole more than anything, I
• 44:11
  mean. Absolutely.
• 44:13
  It's yeah. OK, See, I'm all over the place.
• 44:17
  That's that's who I am. Tell me about you mentioned a
• 44:20
  higher power. I would love to just hear what
• 44:23
  that means for you, because that's one of my favorite things
• 44:26
  to talk about is people's higher powers and what they lean on.
• 44:31
  Sure. Well, the, the, the, the 12 step
• 44:34
  language to answer that would be, as you know, is my will, my
• 44:38
  will, Jonathan's will created all of these poor choices and
• 44:43
  consequences, right? So if my will, if I still
• 44:47
  listened or followed my will, there's a chance I would go back
• 44:51
  to my old patterns and behaviors.
• 44:53
  So dropping the ego, which the acronym for ego is edging God
• 44:58
  out is if I can drop that ego, which I've done and I'm not
• 45:03
  spewing religion. I, I'm, I'm just speaking
• 45:06
  spiritually, you know, like that's, that's what it stands
• 45:09
  for. And spiritually surrendering to
• 45:13
  a power greater than myself is necessary for me, one, to
• 45:18
  continue with humility, to make sure that one of my million
• 45:22
  defects of character like ego doesn't resurface and to just,
• 45:28
  you know, ask my higher power to give me guidance.
• 45:30
  I get mess. I know this sounds silly, but I
• 45:32
  get messages from a higher power on a daily basis.
• 45:36
  You know, sometimes I understand the message, other times I may
• 45:41
  not understand at that moment, but I'm able like I have strong
• 45:44
  self-awareness today, which I never did in the past.
• 45:47
  And that strong self-awareness reminds me that you know what,
• 45:50
  what it to sit down as a mature adult with myself, use positive
• 45:54
  reality based self talk and ask my higher power, please.
• 45:58
  I appreciate this subliminal message, but can you kind of
• 46:00
  give me a direct one now? Because I want your guidance.
• 46:03
  And so I, if I don't have it by the time I go to bed, more often
• 46:08
  than not, the morning I, when I wake up, that message is now
• 46:12
  clear. And that's the guidance I needed
• 46:15
  in a certain area of my life. And so simply, but I do need a
• 46:20
  power greater than myself because I convinced myself that
• 46:23
  I don't trust myself. Now do I trust myself today?
• 46:26
  Realistically, yes. But by convincing myself I
• 46:30
  don't, I become risk adverse and that's important for me.
• 46:36
  And that's why I like to call myself a nerd today.
• 46:38
  Hey, nerds are cool. I I I I'm I'm you know, do you
• 46:43
  ever, and again, if you don't mind me asking, do you find
• 46:46
  yourself battling it? Is it daily battle for you or is
• 46:51
  it more of like, because I had, I've had different guests on
• 46:54
  talking about like struggling with addiction.
• 46:56
  It's, it's a daily thing, right? I mean, it's you're just taking
• 46:58
  one day at a time. Yeah, I mean, I, I don't.
• 47:01
  Yes, I live one day at a time. Absolutely.
• 47:03
  Yeah, I'm mindful today, Present today.
• 47:07
  Unfortunately, I wasn't. I thought I was a good father,
• 47:09
  you know, when I was raising the boys.
• 47:12
  But as I've had time to reflect, yes, I was physically present,
• 47:15
  but I wasn't emotionally present.
• 47:17
  So I really placed a strong value on being emotionally
• 47:20
  present today, regardless of who's around me.
• 47:24
  As for my own struggles, sure, I have struggles.
• 47:26
  Sometimes they're mild, sometimes they're moderate, and
• 47:28
  sometimes they're severe. But bring them on because with
• 47:31
  each one, I I learned something new.
• 47:33
  Like I'm I'm no longer escaping from reality.
• 47:38
  Oh, that's the big thing, right? The drugs were the escape and
• 47:42
  everybody, the escapism of our culture, right?
• 47:45
  Like not not having to face what you know that you need to face.
• 47:50
  And trust me, I've had, I've had periods of my life where I
• 47:55
  didn't like looking in the mirror either.
• 47:57
  Because when you, my therapist said mirror work is so great
• 48:00
  when you look in the mirror that it's so powerful, it's like, you
• 48:05
  know why you avoid it? Because that's that's where the
• 48:07
  real authenticity begins. When you're like, so how you
• 48:12
  doing, Why you doing that? Like all your choices, when you
• 48:15
  lock eyes with yourself, the choices that you know you
• 48:18
  shouldn't be making, for me at least, will be like, So what do
• 48:21
  you do about that, right? It's true.
• 48:24
  I mean, I look in the mirror in the morning and in the evening
• 48:27
  and sometimes I don't like what I see, but not as a human being.
• 48:31
  But let's say I'm not I haven't exercised in a long time and I'm
• 48:34
  not comfortable with my body the way it I've gained 6 lbs, I'm OK
• 48:38
  like. And then that's where also
• 48:40
  acceptance comes in, you know, like, you know what?
• 48:43
  Except Jonathan, you're busy, you're working 12 hour days,
• 48:45
  you're helping people, you're helping yourself, You know, be
• 48:48
  kind to myself, you know, give myself a little self compassion
• 48:51
  because even though I may not like what I see, I'm not going
• 48:55
  to sit there and judge, Hey you, you better lose 6 lbs by
• 48:59
  tomorrow. No, that's not realistic.
• 49:01
  And I'm OK being overweight for today.
• 49:05
  And then at some point I'll start when I'm ready, I'll
• 49:08
  introduce greater self-care, which is an important component
• 49:11
  to my recovery. And I'll, I'll implement that
• 49:14
  and I'll start taking action. But for today, I'm OK with
• 49:18
  eating maybe a little bit some cake.
• 49:21
  Sure. Well, you can't shame yourself.
• 49:23
  Like we all have different sources of that shame, right?
• 49:26
  And the shame I've learned is like the fear of really like
• 49:30
  people rejecting you and like being disconnected from
• 49:32
  everyone. But I mean, I swear, anything
• 49:36
  that you need to get through, it's like self compassion, both
• 49:40
  spiritually and it's been proven scientifically.
• 49:43
  Like self compassion is that antidote to shame.
• 49:47
  Yes, you. Cannot.
• 49:48
  And you have to give it to yourself.
• 49:50
  Like, you can get compassion from everyone, but if you're not
• 49:53
  feeling it like that, shame is just going to stay there.
• 49:56
  It's going to stay there when everyone else is gone and the
• 49:58
  compliments fade, right? Yes, and you know this.
• 50:01
  We can't live in shame and guilt because again, that's like
• 50:04
  carrying things with us that are not healthy and we must flush
• 50:07
  those out. Yeah, yeah, man.
• 50:12
  So let's let's talk about what you do now, because I think it's
• 50:16
  fantastic. So you're, you're talking to
• 50:19
  people who are in recovery at a treatment center now, is the
• 50:23
  average person you're working with battling a substance of
• 50:26
  some kind like. Addiction so yes I work at two
• 50:30
  treatment centers the main one is Altus rehab and see now it's
• 50:33
  a luxury 6 bed detox and residential.
• 50:36
  We have two beautiful homes and I get to be a program director
• 50:39
  there as well as a therapist. And it's the happiest I've ever
• 50:42
  been in my life. I make average money at best,
• 50:46
  but I'm I'm literally so much more fiscally responsible today
• 50:49
  than I was yesterday. And I love walking into the
• 50:55
  treatment center every morning early and embracing and wishing
• 50:59
  good mornings and exchanging good mornings with the clients.
• 51:02
  And I get to see them later in the day for therapy and, and
• 51:05
  deal with their either mental health or substance use.
• 51:09
  So we're primary substance use, we're do diagnosis, secondary
• 51:12
  mental health. And it's just, you know, I try
• 51:15
  my best, you know, therapists, I learned that we can try our
• 51:20
  best, but we might not be the best fit for everyone.
• 51:22
  And that's something that again, we get to accept as therapists
• 51:26
  because maybe my style doesn't work with someone.
• 51:28
  As long as I try, that's the best I can do.
• 51:31
  But I've been very fortunate to work with wonderful people from
• 51:36
  all across the country who've come out here and given us their
• 51:40
  their commitment. And now it's our job to give
• 51:43
  them the promises that we make in terms of our curriculum and
• 51:46
  how we believe we can help them. Do you see is is I mean
• 51:52
  everything from alcohol, cocaine, prescription.
• 51:56
  And it seems like there's a shift now and people are
• 51:59
  starting to realize like how bad, how just how bad alcohol
• 52:04
  can be. Like, you know, it's a socially
• 52:06
  accepted drug, right? Sometimes, or certainly that's
• 52:10
  what my dad always just tell me. You're growing up, Bree, it's
• 52:13
  just drug. And I'm like, OK, whatever, dad,
• 52:15
  Now I'm like, that's right. But what are your thoughts on
• 52:22
  just do you like, I don't even know what I'm asking, but I
• 52:26
  guess do you see that shift in in like people waking up to what
• 52:33
  alcohol really is too as well? And I'm not trying to like hate
• 52:35
  on anyone who has an alcohol brand.
• 52:37
  I'm just saying it's it's, it seems like people are waking up
• 52:41
  to how bad it can potentially be.
• 52:45
  Yeah, alcohol is very prevalent right now.
• 52:47
  We're getting a lot of clients that are addicted to alcohol.
• 52:50
  Some have just recently overdosed and were hospitalized
• 52:53
  and the hospital would send them to us.
• 52:54
  I mean alcohols, you know, is, is dangerous, but we're seeing
• 52:59
  it across the gamut. We're seeing alcohol, we're
• 53:01
  seeing, you know, opioids, we're seeing cannabis induces
• 53:06
  psychosis today. And we're we're trying to
• 53:08
  encourage clients that come in with cannabis withdrawal to to
• 53:11
  recognize that when I was growing up, cannabis was called
• 53:14
  grass. It didn't have the same potency.
• 53:16
  But today in the within purchasing from the
• 53:19
  dispensaries, the chemicals in the potency is so great that
• 53:22
  there is clinical evidence that that states cannabis can induce
• 53:27
  psychosis. So that's really a challenge for
• 53:29
  people to accept that and recognize that.
• 53:32
  I would say the there's so many unique drugs.
• 53:35
  First of all, any drug today, including cannabis can be mixed
• 53:39
  with any type of other drug. And we're unfortunately seeing
• 53:43
  clients think that they're smoking marijuana and what they
• 53:45
  realizing is they're smoking meth or they're smoking fentanyl
• 53:49
  or Adderall. And.
• 53:51
  So for anyone out there that's that's please be careful because
• 53:55
  it's really dangerous and we're seeing people die as a result to
• 53:59
  thinking they're taking one drug, even though that drug is a
• 54:02
  not a healthy drug to take. But it's now mixed with other
• 54:06
  chemicals and drugs that can actually kill them.
• 54:09
  Sorry, I'm just. No, no, it's the awareness piece
• 54:13
  is so huge because even if you're not intending to take the
• 54:17
  quote UN quote bad one, you don't even know what you're
• 54:19
  getting. It's sad and the worst drug that
• 54:23
  we've seen and it believe it or not, I don't know where you live
• 54:27
  if they sell this in their smoke shops, but it starts it's called
• 54:30
  kratom. And what happens with kratom is
• 54:33
  now they've created kratom on steroids with the thing called
• 54:36
  70 H. And from what I understand, and
• 54:38
  so we've had people come into our treatment center who have
• 54:41
  been withdrawing from experienced withdrawing from
• 54:44
  many drugs and their withdrawal symptoms have never been as
• 54:48
  severe as they are with this kratom.
• 54:51
  And unfortunately, it's sold at smoke shops now.
• 54:53
  I think the federal government is trying to make a push to
• 54:56
  remove them off the shelves. And I hope they do because
• 54:58
  people can die and they're it's too accessible for them today.
• 55:03
  Yeah, it's, it's, it's wild to me just how, how easy it is to
• 55:12
  kind of get these like lethal these things that cause such,
• 55:17
  such devastation, you know, but goodness.
• 55:22
  So what do you, when you look back on a sort of all these
• 55:27
  different phases of your life, right.
• 55:29
  And I think we all look back on like the story of our life and
• 55:33
  we all have adventures in in adversity in different formats,
• 55:36
  right. It seems like you're in a
• 55:40
  chapter now where all of the previous chapters are being put
• 55:46
  to really good use if, if that makes sense.
• 55:49
  Meaning you're taking all of those experiences and as my
• 55:52
  friend Sylvie likes to say, like alchemizing them into something
• 55:56
  good. And I, what I think is super
• 56:00
  cool about counselors, therapists, is when you're
• 56:03
  helping somebody heal, when they go off into the world, you're
• 56:07
  literally impacting every single person that they then interact
• 56:11
  with. That's such a great point
• 56:13
  because when clients come into treatment, they you've ruptured
• 56:17
  your family dynamics. So that's why it's important
• 56:21
  that we do family sessions on top of individual sessions
• 56:24
  because we want you to leave here with most of your
• 56:27
  unresolved issues. You walked in our treatment
• 56:31
  center with like trauma, but also relationships,
• 56:34
  relationships with loved ones. And it takes a while to to have
• 56:39
  them accept that their poor choices and their behaviors hurt
• 56:43
  a lot of people just like mine. And I'm still 10 years into
• 56:47
  almost 10 years into my abstinence and sobriety, earning
• 56:51
  back trust of my loved ones too. And and that's what I can model
• 56:57
  for them. But I try my best to, if they're
• 57:00
  willing to see my actions, they're going to see a different
• 57:03
  person. So I encourage clients when they
• 57:05
  walk in to realize, let's get started on your family, Not the
• 57:08
  first week. Let's get to know each other.
• 57:10
  Or maybe maybe Week 2 or Week 3, we'll we'll begin to start
• 57:14
  asking family members if they want to participate in sessions.
• 57:17
  Yeah, yeah. But it it's unbelievable the
• 57:21
  ripple effect when the people, people just want to be seen and
• 57:25
  heard, right? Like they just want to, it
• 57:27
  sounds so like simple where you're like, well, that's easy.
• 57:32
  But when you're in a therapeutic session and you are able to
• 57:37
  like, let go and really figure out why you're doing the things
• 57:41
  you're doing, but then not shaming yourself, that's the
• 57:46
  trick, right? Because because you discover all
• 57:49
  this stuff, but then it's sort of like giving it a hug.
• 57:53
  I mean, like, OK, well, like, what are we going to do with
• 57:54
  that? What are we going to do with
• 57:55
  that moving forward? Right.
• 57:59
  Yeah. What are you most excited about
• 58:03
  in your life? And, and I know it's a big
• 58:06
  question, but what, what are you most excited about these days?
• 58:10
  Most excited about like a passion project that I have.
• 58:13
  Anything, yeah, or like what's coming up for you that you'd
• 58:16
  like to anything that's just. My hope is within nine months to
• 58:22
  10 months, there'll be a book about my story that's out there.
• 58:25
  OK, and it's going to be followed by a movie and it's
• 58:29
  going to allow me, with, God willing, the success it has, I
• 58:32
  hope will allow me to tour the world and spread my message as
• 58:37
  you do with your podcast. And if I could help people, then
• 58:41
  that's where my passion lies. That's what it's all about,
• 58:45
  right? All of the adversity that we
• 58:48
  make it through and I and every single guest, it's a really
• 58:52
  common theme that they go through this really tough stuff
• 58:57
  and now everyone wants to help people see what I'm saying.
• 59:01
  Like you go, you get humbled by the darkness, whatever that
• 59:05
  means for you, your darkest moment, your maybe you lost
• 59:09
  somebody. Maybe you made a bad decision.
• 59:10
  Maybe you spent time in prison, maybe you went got divorced.
• 59:14
  Whatever that dark thing is, you come out of it just right.
• 59:22
  You come out of it in an almost, almost like glad that you you
• 59:29
  went through it. Not, I don't know how to not
• 59:32
  glad you went through it, but the way you feel after you
• 59:35
  really hit the bottom and you make it through.
• 59:39
  I think there's something in all of us that you like, just want
• 59:42
  to be like, don't do this. Do this so that you don't have
• 59:45
  to end up on the ground. You know what I mean?
• 59:49
  Yes, I needed to. Honestly, as I look back, I
• 59:52
  needed time in prison. I mean, was that I need as much
• 59:55
  time as I received? No, but that wasn't like that
• 59:58
  wasn't up to me. That was up to the judge, which
• 59:59
  I respect her decision. But I needed a time because
• 1:00:03
  absent that time, I when would I have found the time to discover
• 1:00:07
  and to reflect on all of my poor choices of yesterday?
• 1:00:11
  And so it really gave me an opportunity to become, as I said
• 1:00:14
  earlier, the the person that to you today, I can once again say
• 1:00:17
  I'm proud of who I've become. I'm proud of who I am becoming.
• 1:00:20
  Yeah, the road to get there isn't always the one that we.
• 1:00:24
  It's not that that line where you just get to perfectly become
• 1:00:29
  what you want. And I think it's just a reminder
• 1:00:32
  to everybody who's listening to this episode to really just
• 1:00:36
  think before we judge because there's a, and I think you don't
• 1:00:42
  really know what's going on in somebody's heart.
• 1:00:44
  You don't know their past. And I, I think meeting you and
• 1:00:49
  connecting with you is just such a great reminder of like the
• 1:00:54
  power of our choices, but the power to like embrace those,
• 1:00:58
  those choices we aren't so proud of.
• 1:01:00
  And there's like a there's a beauty to it when you talk about
• 1:01:02
  it, that I think you're going to make a lot of people feel
• 1:01:06
  hopeful that the mistakes they made don't have to be like where
• 1:01:13
  they stop, you know, Because if you can go through that and come
• 1:01:18
  out and, and being able to like embrace it and talk about it, I
• 1:01:22
  just, I really commend you for that.
• 1:01:24
  It's a big deal. And it's going to somebody
• 1:01:26
  listening is going to be like, wait, OK, That that's what's
• 1:01:29
  tough. OK, I can, I can do this.
• 1:01:31
  I can do this, you know. Yes, I hope so.
• 1:01:35
  Absolutely. Well, I, I would love to have
• 1:01:39
  you back when the book and the movie come out.
• 1:01:43
  You know, I, I, I think it's brave.
• 1:01:46
  I think it's honorable to just show your humanity and like,
• 1:01:50
  Share your story. And we're going to put all of
• 1:01:54
  the links to your information where people can find out more
• 1:01:57
  about you in the show notes here.
• 1:02:01
  And Jonathan, is there anything, anything you'd like to leave
• 1:02:04
  with the listeners or for anyone out there before we kind of wrap
• 1:02:08
  it up? Yes, I would like to encourage
• 1:02:12
  them to ask for help because they're worth it.
• 1:02:16
  They just got to simply ask for help.
• 1:02:19
  Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. Well, with that, we're going to
• 1:02:24
  wrap up episode 71 again. Please, please, if you're
• 1:02:29
  struggling out there, whether it's with any kind of addiction
• 1:02:33
  or you're just struggling to get out of bed, know that you know,
• 1:02:37
  you're not alone. People like Jonathan have seen
• 1:02:41
  the darkest of times and have been willing to share how they
• 1:02:45
  got through it. And so again, thank you so much.
• 1:02:49
  And Jonathan, I, I can't wait to see, you know, how many people
• 1:02:53
  you continue to help and just just really, really grateful to
• 1:02:58
  meet you. I'm grateful to be on your
• 1:03:00
  podcast and I'm grateful for what you're doing with your
• 1:03:03
  listeners and the messages that you are spreading as well.
• 1:03:05
  So thank you for being you. Absolutely.
• 1:03:08
  Thank you. I'll take it.
• 1:03:09
  I will take that supplement. All right.
• 1:03:12
  Well, take care and we will connect soon.
• 1:03:15
  Thank you. Bye.