Latest / Half the Picture / #29 - JACK DAVENPORT

Transcript

#29 - JACK DAVENPORT · Half the Picture

• 0:00
  You're in a pirate movie and I'm the only one who's not a fucking pirate.
• 0:04
  It was like, and they look cool and there's me like being wheeled around looking like a
• 0:08
  margigraf floats with like 50 pounds of brigade on me and a really unflashering white wig.
• 0:23
  Hi Jack, welcome to Half the Picture, how you doing today?
• 0:25
  I'm very well, nice to meet you, how you doing?
• 0:27
  Nice to meet you too, I'm doing very well.
• 0:29
  As we were saying before we started, I've been a fan of yours for years.
• 0:32
  I mean, going back to the days, of course, to Commodore,
• 0:35
  Norenton, in parts of the Caribbean, and before that as well,
• 0:38
  coupling in this life and Mr Ripley and all sorts of things.
• 0:42
  A bit too young for this life.
• 0:45
  No, no.
• 0:45
  Someone takes in me yesterday to say that it's been 30 years which makes me feel
• 0:50
  even more ancient than I normally feel, so there we are.
• 0:54
  Well, I mean, I don't know if I should say this, but this life...
• 0:57
  So actually, well, tomorrow is the 30th anniversary of this life, isn't it?
• 0:59
  Yeah, do really.
• 1:00
  Tomorrow is the day, 30 years to the day that that show came out,
• 1:04
  which I guess in many ways was your big break.
• 1:06
  And I'm about three weeks older than that show, sir.
• 1:10
  Thanks for that.
• 1:11
  That's right, kind of.
• 1:12
  So you weren't like a big fan.
• 1:14
  It was a big fan.
• 1:15
  I was straight out in a fascinating corner of the room while your parents
• 1:20
  endured the misbehavior of this life has made.
• 1:23
  But, you know, it's got you here.
• 1:25
  So here, there we go.
• 1:27
  It's sort of seeped into my subconscious and I'll show you.
• 1:30
  No, actually, but this life was something I came to later.
• 1:32
  But like, yeah, the other stuff, like I mentioned, is just, you know,
• 1:35
  like I said, I've been being a fan of yours for a long time,
• 1:37
  and it's so great to have you on the show.
• 1:39
  So I mean, I guess going back to the start then, if I may,
• 1:41
  I mean, because having gone back through a lot of your career,
• 1:44
  and the run ups is chat, it's been, you know,
• 1:45
  it's fantastic, you know, the breadth of work that you've done.
• 1:48
  You know, and across all genres, you know, comedy,
• 1:50
  drama, action, period, I mean, like you've kind of done,
• 1:54
  it feels to me like you and obviously theatre as well,
• 1:56
  fit stage and screen.
• 1:57
  It feels like you've done kind of everything in so many ways.
• 1:59
  But this started for you.
• 2:00
  I mean, because you all pet your family, you were actors.
• 2:02
  And like, you know, Najdaapoint was your dad,
• 2:04
  who was a great actor as well himself,
• 2:06
  and Maria Akkin and Aiken.
• 2:08
  And Aiken, yeah.
• 2:10
  And yeah, I mean, you grew up around actors.
• 2:12
  Was acting something that you need.
• 2:14
  You did you know from an early age that,
• 2:16
  oh, you wanted to follow in the footsteps of your family?
• 2:18
  I didn't actually.
• 2:20
  I, any actor, parent, worth the name of parent, as opposed to actor,
• 2:27
  is never going to encourage their child
• 2:30
  to go into this benicid business,
• 2:32
  because it's a quite a tough road at times for everybody,
• 2:37
  even people who are lucky, like I've been incredibly lucky,
• 2:40
  to kind of make a career of it.
• 2:42
  So it, they weren't actively discouraging,
• 2:45
  but nor would I say were they like, you know,
• 2:48
  it's work for us.
• 2:49
  So I'm sure it'll work for you,
• 2:50
  because that, that, that generally doesn't happen.
• 2:53
  But what I realized,
• 2:58
  the thing that sort of propelled me towards it in, in a way,
• 3:02
  was not something that I was aware of consciously
• 3:05
  when it was happening, when I was six form through college
• 3:08
  into like, trying to come get into the world
• 3:10
  and sort of make a life for myself,
• 3:15
  which is this, which is that when I was growing up,
• 3:20
  there were actors everywhere, like show business
• 3:25
  is not a closed shop, by any chance, the imagination,
• 3:29
  but it is quite tribal.
• 3:31
  Like we do hang out together,
• 3:34
  like partly because, well, I don't know why that is,
• 3:38
  but we do.
• 3:40
  But when I was a kid,
• 3:43
  if you're a small child, actors are very beguiling
• 3:48
  versions of adults, because then they're playful,
• 3:52
  and they're not patronizing,
• 3:54
  and they're sort of able to, because that's the job,
• 3:56
  is to be playful, right?
• 3:58
  And so they're very, in a very sort of automatic way,
• 4:02
  will come to your level either literally,
• 4:05
  but also just, but in a way that doesn't feel forced,
• 4:09
  and it's fun to be around, and it's sort of,
• 4:12
  and I was, as I say, none of this was conscious,
• 4:16
  but then when I was at school, I did start doing a lot of plays,
• 4:23
  partly because, you know,
• 4:26
  the theatre at school is generally like team sports,
• 4:28
  for people who aren't good at sports.
• 4:30
  I was okay at sports,
• 4:33
  but I loved the team aspect of putting on a play.
• 4:38
  It's like it's, you know, it's a wonderful process to this day,
• 4:43
  like when I do do play is still, you know,
• 4:46
  the whole from the first day of rehearsal to all the way through
• 4:49
  to only night and the run, like it's a,
• 4:51
  you all go on a bit of a ride together,
• 4:54
  and in the context of school, you know,
• 4:58
  it's like, it's not very difficult,
• 5:01
  because there's a quite a limited talent pool to be like,
• 5:05
  one of, first of all, most people have no desire to do it,
• 5:08
  because as we know, like the number one phobia,
• 5:12
  human phobia appears to be public speaking apparently,
• 5:16
  and I didn't really have a problem with that,
• 5:19
  so already, like, you know, like the kind of theatre nerds
• 5:23
  of kind of self-selected,
• 5:25
  and there's only a few of us,
• 5:27
  and so isn't that difficult if you're kind of enthusiastic
• 5:31
  and, you know, constantly trying to get in various school plays,
• 5:35
  to end up playing like ridiculous parts for like a young person.
• 5:40
  I mean, I'm both proud but mainly embarrassed to say
• 5:44
  that I've played Hamlet when I was 16,
• 5:48
  which like nobody needs to see a 16-year-old's
• 5:51
  interpretation of Hamlet.
• 5:54
  At least of all the poor sides are to sit through
• 5:56
  whatever it was I came up with at the time,
• 5:58
  which I dread to think what it was actually like,
• 6:02
  but it was quite a challenge and you know,
• 6:07
  I got through it one way or the other,
• 6:09
  so the sort of, the play thing was
• 6:11
  charging along in the background and it kind of school,
• 6:14
  and then when I went to university,
• 6:15
  same thing, I did a lot of plays when I first got there,
• 6:18
  and then I was like, I'm not even doing drama,
• 6:20
  I think I should just do something else,
• 6:22
  so I did a journalism, I do whatever.
• 6:25
  But when it came to like trying to decide
• 6:30
  what Earth I wanted to do with the rest of my life,
• 6:32
  because I read English and fell me in university,
• 6:36
  which is a lovely thing to study,
• 6:38
  but arguably it proposes you for very little
• 6:41
  other than reading Victorian novels quickly,
• 6:45
  but I loved it, but it's not like, you know,
• 6:47
  it's not very specific,
• 6:50
  and I could sort of fell myself getting more and more
• 6:55
  drawn to maybe trying to pursue the thing
• 6:58
  that my parents have been doing all their lives,
• 7:01
  and you know, one thing led to another,
• 7:03
  and that did start to happen,
• 7:05
  but it took a good decade of being a pro
• 7:11
  to realize that one of the thing that drove me
• 7:13
  was to go back to the thing when I was a kid,
• 7:16
  this tribal thing, I wanted to be in the tribe,
• 7:20
  I wanted, it's an unfashionable thing to say out loud,
• 7:24
  I love actors, I love their company,
• 7:27
  I love the kind of wild diversity of
• 7:31
  types of people that it has within it as a workforce,
• 7:35
  it's a very interesting group of professionals to me,
• 7:38
  maybe not to everyone, but certainly to me.
• 7:41
  And so it was a sort of tribal impulse,
• 7:44
  I wanted to be in that tribe,
• 7:47
  and it wasn't God knows, it wasn't ambition,
• 7:50
  because if you know anything about,
• 7:52
  if you're the child of actors,
• 7:53
  is don't have any ambition,
• 7:56
  because the chances are this isn't going to go well,
• 7:59
  so just, you know, just kind of see where the chips fall,
• 8:02
  but in the meantime, you're around your people,
• 8:07
  and I sort of figured that out in school,
• 8:09
  like as I was saying, like Pearson knows,
• 8:11
  I was like, these are kind of my guys,
• 8:14
  and so it was kind of that really,
• 8:16
  it was, and then I got lucky early on
• 8:19
  and got some momentum, so,
• 8:22
  I was able to sort of, I got off on a very,
• 8:25
  very fortunate fast footing.
• 8:29
  So, but as I say, it took a while for me to actually realize
• 8:32
  that's why I ended up doing it,
• 8:35
  because I really wasn't encouraged by my parents,
• 8:37
  and quite rightly, I actually got,
• 8:40
  I actually booked a couple of professional gigs
• 8:43
  when I was at school,
• 8:45
  and my dad wouldn't let me do them,
• 8:46
  and I was absolutely furious with him at the time,
• 8:50
  and I now look back on it, and I'm like,
• 8:52
  it's the best parents he ever did.
• 8:54
  It wouldn't have been good for me to be a child like that.
• 8:57
  It's not good for most people, if I'm honest.
• 8:59
  Some people achieve escape velocity,
• 9:02
  and kind of, you know,
• 9:04
  I just want to see Daniel Radcliffe on Broadway last week,
• 9:06
  and we've got some medium afterwards,
• 9:09
  and he's such a lovely man,
• 9:11
  but he's absolutely the exception that proves the rule.
• 9:14
  Like, all of those Harry Potter kids,
• 9:16
  it's like, but generally speaking,
• 9:19
  it can be a bit ruinous,
• 9:20
  because you're putting a child right in the middle
• 9:24
  of a very adult, very expensive process,
• 9:28
  and I don't think children should have
• 9:30
  that kind of pressure necessarily put on them.
• 9:34
  So, again, with hindsight, I'm really glad I waited
• 9:39
  until I was sort of through my education,
• 9:42
  such as it was before I made the leap.
• 9:46
  So, yeah.
• 9:47
  And so, do you feel like your parents almost,
• 9:49
  in a way, despite being at as they did almost say,
• 9:51
  like, they want to sort of give you the space, I guess,
• 9:54
  so they weren't, as you said,
• 9:55
  they weren't putting any pressure on you at all to be like,
• 9:57
  oh, no, this is what you should do.
• 9:58
  Like, oh, you should decide for yourself.
• 10:00
  Yeah, that's true.
• 10:01
  And also because the truth is,
• 10:02
  it's not uncommon, as we know,
• 10:05
  that the children of actors can end up being actors,
• 10:08
  especially if it's two actors in a relationship.
• 10:14
  And it's partly a familiarity thing.
• 10:16
  It's partly, when it's good, it's really fun.
• 10:20
  It's not drudgery being an actor sometimes it is,
• 10:24
  but generally not.
• 10:26
  But the thing, now I'm much older,
• 10:30
  and I've got colleagues, we've all got kids.
• 10:32
  I mean, my son's 16, but I've got friends
• 10:34
  with adult children, some of whom have become actors.
• 10:39
  Like, that's quite an astringent moment
• 10:41
  when like this person you knew as a toddler
• 10:43
  is suddenly on a TV series with you,
• 10:45
  it's very hard to process.
• 10:47
  But the thing is, and I always ask them about this,
• 10:52
  I'm like, when did you know there were any good?
• 10:56
  Because that's the killer is like,
• 10:58
  don't give them false hope.
• 11:00
  You've got to genuinely think,
• 11:03
  yeah, they could maybe do this.
• 11:04
  And it's, and it, you know,
• 11:07
  I can't believe I'm about to invoke Simon Cowell here.
• 11:11
  But for all, I mean, I know he's playing up to a sort of,
• 11:14
  you know, I mean, he's just playing a role on that show.
• 11:17
  But, but there is an aspect of his like,
• 11:22
  pulling no punches, assessments of things that he sees.
• 11:27
  And honestly, that's the way to go.
• 11:29
  You do not want to get people false hope.
• 11:31
  There are so many incredibly talented actors
• 11:36
  that you and I will never have heard of
• 11:39
  and never will hear of.
• 11:41
  It's like, it's the unfairness of show business is,
• 11:45
  I mean, we haven't got time to even, you know,
• 11:47
  enumerate the first two million things
• 11:50
  that are unfair about it.
• 11:52
  So there is that thing of like worrying
• 11:56
  that you know, your charges might not be good enough.
• 12:01
  And the only, I only, the only instance I know
• 12:05
  of my parents really ever discussing it is,
• 12:09
  I did a Ben Travers fast.
• 12:13
  Ben Travers was a sort of mid-century,
• 12:16
  mid-20th century playwright.
• 12:17
  He wrote a lot of fastest.
• 12:18
  Fosters are actually very difficult to write
• 12:20
  because they're structurally.
• 12:22
  And if you get it right, it's like, for my money,
• 12:24
  it's like the most delirious experience
• 12:26
  an audience can have in a theater.
• 12:28
  But it takes a very specific kind of writer
• 12:31
  to be able to do it.
• 12:33
  But I did this fast and it was sitting in, you know,
• 12:34
  it's like a fast, it's fast pace and bang, bang, bang.
• 12:37
  And lots of gags and, and my dad came to see it.
• 12:42
  My mom was a way working.
• 12:45
  That's another thing with the hands of the actor parents.
• 12:48
  There's very, they're all the time or not at all.
• 12:51
  And my mother didn't tell me this for years afterwards,
• 12:55
  but my dad had come to see the play.
• 12:57
  You know, he's, at the end of it, he's not like
• 12:59
  he didn't say, well done, he did.
• 13:01
  But like, he was, I think probably calculatedly quite
• 13:09
  dispassionate.
• 13:10
  Like he wasn't like, wow, that was amazing.
• 13:12
  But he was like, you know, good nice job.
• 13:14
  But, but then he called my mom quite late at night
• 13:18
  after he'd seen it.
• 13:19
  They'd been long divorced.
• 13:21
  And so she was quite surprised to get a call from him at all.
• 13:24
  And, and she picks up the phone.
• 13:27
  And he didn't even say who it was.
• 13:29
  And he just said, the boy's got timing
• 13:32
  and pretty much hung up.
• 13:34
  Which is about the, that's about the only and best review
• 13:38
  I got from, but, but, but in a way,
• 13:41
  I was like, that's a big deal, actually.
• 13:44
  Like, and so I guess that was his way of going,
• 13:48
  well, maybe, like it might not be a complete,
• 13:51
  you might not be on a hiding to nothing.
• 13:54
  But as I say, they were quite cautious about encouraging it
• 13:59
  and that, so that's a perfect example of that.
• 14:02
  But then as an actor, as you say, like you did get off
• 14:04
  to a really, you got, you got off on a really strong foot.
• 14:07
  I mean, like we were saying before we rolled,
• 14:08
  but like tomorrow is the marks the 30th anniversary
• 14:11
  of this life, which I guess in many ways
• 14:13
  was your big break as an actor.
• 14:14
  Absolutely.
• 14:15
  Totally.
• 14:16
  Yeah, on the BBC, you know, this sort of comedy drama show
• 14:18
  following this gang of mates, quite sort of unprecedented.
• 14:21
  It must be said in sort of British television,
• 14:23
  especially at the time.
• 14:24
  You guys kind of all got, kind of got catapulted up
• 14:26
  when that show sort of took off, you know,
• 14:28
  it took all while to build up that momentum
• 14:29
  and then it took off.
• 14:30
  And I guess I'm looking back, as I say,
• 14:32
  like that was, in many ways, your big break.
• 14:34
  I mean, like looking back on the show now after 30 years,
• 14:38
  like what's your relationship to that now?
• 14:39
  I mean, especially as I guess, like it's kind of scary
• 14:41
  that tomorrow is the anniversary of this.
• 14:42
  It's quite scary.
• 14:44
  Yeah.
• 14:44
  We don't need to dwell on the actual raw numbers there.
• 14:48
  Look, I look back on it with incredible gratitude
• 14:55
  and deep fondness because there's something
• 15:02
  you have to remember about that show,
• 15:04
  which again, this is like that frighteningly
• 15:06
  how much it's dated.
• 15:09
  That show predated the internet, right?
• 15:13
  Just, but it did.
• 15:15
  But it's a really important thing to remember
• 15:18
  when one considers the way it was received
• 15:20
  and how it was kind of, how it was approved of,
• 15:26
  as it were, by kind of cultural gatekeepers in that era.
• 15:30
  Because in those days, there were cultural gatekeepers.
• 15:34
  There were newspapers, there were magazines,
• 15:36
  there was a bit of, you know,
• 15:38
  I guess kind of pop culture television somewhat,
• 15:41
  but it was mainly newspapers and magazines in those,
• 15:43
  and the radio, I suppose.
• 15:47
  And once those, once the fourth estate had decided
• 15:53
  you were it, like then suddenly a momentum was achieved
• 15:58
  that becomes like a bit of a runaway train.
• 16:01
  And I always joke that, you know,
• 16:04
  when we did a like a 10 year anniversary
• 16:07
  sort of reunion episode, and by that time,
• 16:11
  everyone's a critic at that point.
• 16:13
  And they people hated it because it was a different time.
• 16:18
  And I'm not saying that if the internet had been widely adopted
• 16:22
  when it first came out,
• 16:23
  it wouldn't have been the success that it was.
• 16:25
  But it is an important thing to remember
• 16:28
  when one thinks about how it kind of all went down.
• 16:32
  But look, it's, my dad actually said to me at the time,
• 16:37
  like when he became this kind of weird juggernaut,
• 16:42
  my dad, and I sort of thought he was slightly
• 16:44
  raining on my parade when he said it,
• 16:46
  but he said, like, remember this,
• 16:48
  because this might be like the best received thing
• 16:53
  you ever do because, you know, like even he was like,
• 16:55
  he could see what was happening in terms of the way it was
• 16:59
  being written about and talked about and it sort of became,
• 17:04
  I mean, I'm reluctant to use the phrase cultural phenomenon,
• 17:07
  but it kind of was a bit.
• 17:09
  It sort of was for a minute.
• 17:13
  And it turns out he was right.
• 17:15
  Now this is partly to do with, again,
• 17:19
  pre-intimate post-intimate,
• 17:22
  but what it gives a young actor,
• 17:25
  like being in something that is, you know,
• 17:28
  like becomes part of the pop culture conversation
• 17:34
  with the centrality that it did at the time,
• 17:38
  it gives you a real boost, you know,
• 17:40
  in terms of being attractive to hire for other things.
• 17:48
  So all of us, really, me, Andy Daniela, Ramita, Jason,
• 17:53
  Ramon, like we all got lots of jobs afterwards
• 17:57
  because we were in that show.
• 17:59
  And you know, the hardest thing in show business
• 18:03
  is achieving momentum and then maintaining momentum.
• 18:08
  And so like that was like, I mean, again,
• 18:13
  there's a wonderful documentary
• 18:16
  which given the predilection of your podcast,
• 18:20
  if you haven't seen it, you must.
• 18:22
  Very few show business couples merit like a six hour documentary,
• 18:28
  but the marriage of Paul Newman and Joanne Woodwood,
• 18:31
  I would argue 100% merit it.
• 18:34
  I've heard it's an amazing documentary.
• 18:37
  Ethan Hall made it at the height of COVID
• 18:40
  and I'm sure you can find it somewhere.
• 18:42
  It was on HBO, but I'm sure it's somewhere.
• 18:45
  And you'd probably really dig it
• 18:46
  given the people that you've had on this show,
• 18:48
  like it seems like something you'd be into.
• 18:50
  But one of the things that is quoted quite early on
• 18:55
  in the doc is that Newman's being interviewed
• 19:01
  about his illustrious career.
• 19:03
  And how did he do it, Paul?
• 19:05
  But he's like, look, there's, yeah, sure,
• 19:10
  I can walk into your gum and I'm also,
• 19:14
  he didn't say this, but I'll say,
• 19:16
  he was the most handsome man maybe that ever lived.
• 19:19
  I mean, pretty much.
• 19:20
  Pretty much, yeah.
• 19:21
  But he said, but the thing that no one ever really
• 19:26
  is willing to fully acknowledge is the role of luck
• 19:29
  that is displayed in any successful show
• 19:33
  in this career.
• 19:34
  So much right place, right time has to occur
• 19:39
  that it's in some ways it's completely disempowering.
• 19:44
  And in other ways, it's quite liberating
• 19:47
  because you're like, it's all a fucking crap shoot.
• 19:49
  Can I swear on this, by the way?
• 19:50
  Yep, absolutely.
• 19:52
  You go for it.
• 19:55
  And so I got really lucky, like straight out of the gate,
• 19:59
  you know, it was like I got a royal flush first time
• 20:04
  and he was like, shit, okay, I better ride this pony.
• 20:09
  And so yeah, it was, as I say, I'm incredibly grateful.
• 20:15
  I've remained friends with them all ever since
• 20:18
  and because for all of us, it was our fur,
• 20:21
  it was like we were all unknown.
• 20:23
  Like it was all our first big job.
• 20:25
  Andy and I were the youngest.
• 20:28
  We would like all of 22 when we did that first season.
• 20:33
  We were kids and we were terrified.
• 20:37
  You know, these were big parts
• 20:39
  and I'd done a movie before that,
• 20:41
  but I was basically an extra glorified extra.
• 20:45
  So it was quite a baptism of fire,
• 20:50
  but boy, did we get lucky because it gave us,
• 20:53
  you know, it sort of bought us probably,
• 20:56
  I don't know, four or five years of being on lists
• 21:00
  that people would actually consider you to be casting things.
• 21:03
  So, and you know, you don't say on those lists forever,
• 21:06
  like you've got to kind of keep, you know,
• 21:09
  you've got a achieving little sugar highs in your career
• 21:12
  for people to remember who the fuck you are, really.
• 21:15
  Now you still like him swear, I'm not gonna start.
• 21:17
  Yeah, you go for it, mate.
• 21:20
  I mean, the, you mentioned the other cast,
• 21:23
  I mean, as you say, like the whole show,
• 21:25
  I mean, like revisiting it for the run up to this chat,
• 21:28
  it is like, it is a perfect time capsule,
• 21:30
  you say, of the time, and also of,
• 21:33
  I can say the people who made it,
• 21:34
  because I see you guys were young.
• 21:35
  I mean, like you and Andrew Lincoln were like,
• 21:37
  yeah, 22, which is insane, you know,
• 21:39
  and you guys were in this prime time show,
• 21:41
  obviously, it was a big break, as I say,
• 21:43
  and like the energy of the whole piece is absolutely youthful.
• 21:46
  It was quite a low-fi setup, the camera operator,
• 21:48
  it was just kind of, there was no,
• 21:49
  there was not much framing, it was kind of just like focusing,
• 21:52
  the actors, you guys kind of led, led the sort of,
• 21:55
  the direction, if you like, I guess,
• 21:56
  all the cameras would kind of follow you.
• 21:58
  And I guess what was it like, I guess,
• 22:00
  that you say you've stayed in touch
• 22:01
  with the rest of the cast, I mean,
• 22:02
  working with those guys, like,
• 22:04
  so it must have been a great amount of fun.
• 22:06
  It was, it was, it was really fun.
• 22:08
  Once we'd all got over our initial, you know,
• 22:11
  terror, imposter syndrome, like, you know,
• 22:14
  like, you're suddenly in the middle of this thing
• 22:17
  and you're not wrong, it was relative to,
• 22:19
  I mean, we're looking back on it.
• 22:21
  It was the most low-budget, low-fi thing you can imagine.
• 22:25
  And like, you're right to have clotted the,
• 22:28
  I mean, the shaky camera work thing
• 22:30
  was very much a sort of trademark of the show,
• 22:34
  but the truth is, they did it for a reason of expediency.
• 22:39
  It wasn't some grand aesthetic choice
• 22:41
  that was meant to kind of, you know,
• 22:44
  crank up the kind of veritate dials.
• 22:47
  It was simply this, which is that the average TV show
• 22:54
  shoots probably on a really good day,
• 22:57
  like six pages of dialogue a day,
• 22:59
  probably more in the four to five range, right?
• 23:03
  It takes time, you know, you've got a light,
• 23:05
  you've got to be the camera,
• 23:06
  I mean, it's got faster and faster and faster over the years.
• 23:09
  Anyway, that's the average roughly.
• 23:11
  We had nothing to compare it to.
• 23:13
  We were shooting 11 to 12 pages a day,
• 23:17
  which is like the sort of speed
• 23:19
  that you used to do on like old-time soap operas,
• 23:23
  but they've got like five cameras.
• 23:26
  And, you know, and it's all the sets are all pre-layed
• 23:28
  and it's a completely different, it wasn't,
• 23:30
  I mean, you could say that this life is a bit soapy,
• 23:33
  but it wasn't a traditional soap opera per se.
• 23:36
  So what they would do is we'd rehearse the scene
• 23:40
  that the camera operator and the director
• 23:42
  would kind of look at what we were doing.
• 23:44
  And then having seen where we'd all landed in the space,
• 23:49
  they would choose an angle from which to shoot it.
• 23:55
  And they would shoot it as you do classically,
• 23:57
  a wide shot and then come in from maybe a medium
• 24:00
  and then pick off whatever close-ups
• 24:02
  that were best from that angle.
• 24:05
  And by that time, the camera operator
• 24:09
  is very familiar with what the action of the scene is.
• 24:12
  And then he's also noticed like incidental details,
• 24:15
  like someone picking up a drink and drinking it
• 24:18
  or stubbing a cigarette and an astray or whatever it was.
• 24:22
  So then they would do another final pass
• 24:25
  where he would whip it around, which is a,
• 24:29
  I mean, the poor focus pillar
• 24:31
  and sort of land on these almost like extraneous details.
• 24:35
  And the reason they did that was because
• 24:38
  if you cut in and out of that whippy take,
• 24:45
  it looks like you've moved around the room
• 24:48
  and you've shot from another angle.
• 24:51
  But we didn't have time.
• 24:54
  So it was for speed purposes, but of course people
• 24:59
  took it to be the sort of commitment to realism.
• 25:03
  It was really a commitment to economy
• 25:06
  as much as anything else.
• 25:09
  And so that, and then the other thing you say
• 25:11
  about the kind of youthful spirit of it
• 25:16
  and one of the things I loved about the writing
• 25:21
  from the get-go was A, it didn't feel very written,
• 25:24
  which is the best writing feels that way.
• 25:27
  I mean, dialogue writing.
• 25:30
  But it didn't sort of fall prey to the usual tropes
• 25:37
  of kind of TV drama in the sense that
• 25:42
  all of our characters took copious amounts
• 25:44
  of recreational drugs.
• 25:46
  No one ever had an overdose.
• 25:48
  No one ever liked, like it wasn't,
• 25:50
  there wasn't this kind of moral position like this is bad
• 25:53
  and therefore if a character did something
• 25:55
  that society deems bad or illegal, bad things will happen.
• 25:59
  You know, we all had great, you know,
• 26:02
  fist falls of sex with inappropriate characters
• 26:06
  and there was always, but no one suddenly,
• 26:09
  you know, got some terrible STD or anything like that.
• 26:13
  It was, and that's not to say that those things
• 26:15
  don't happen in the real world,
• 26:16
  but this, but statistically it doesn't happen
• 26:20
  more often than it does happen.
• 26:22
  And I think the audience for whom he was intended
• 26:25
  again, it might not have been conscious,
• 26:27
  but they were like, yeah, that's more like my experience.
• 26:31
  You know, I do shit like these characters do
• 26:34
  and sometimes I have a rotten day after
• 26:36
  it's after I've taken fist falls of ease or whatever,
• 26:39
  but I didn't necessarily die.
• 26:44
  And so I think people like not being sort of patronized
• 26:48
  by that kind of slightly outdated moral architecture
• 26:54
  that a lot of television dramas to this day
• 26:56
  and so now I see no world well pass that now,
• 26:58
  but that's not true.
• 26:59
  But back then it was, it seemed somewhat groundbreaking,
• 27:04
  I guess.
• 27:04
  Yeah, then it didn't fall into that typical melodrama.
• 27:07
  And as you say, like people really responded to it
• 27:09
  and like it became in its own way a phenomenon.
• 27:12
  Like I mean, I think even at the height of it,
• 27:14
  like I said, when I was reading into this,
• 27:15
  like researching this, like in the height of that sort
• 27:18
  of popularity, I want to say you guys,
• 27:19
  like the whole cast that ended up,
• 27:21
  you all ended up at Elton John's birthday party, right?
• 27:23
  He was a fan, and yeah.
• 27:25
  Well, one of the things, I mean, a few times in my career,
• 27:30
  I've been fortunate enough to be in things
• 27:31
  that really broke through.
• 27:33
  It doesn't, like nobody has, you know,
• 27:36
  a hundred percent hit rate.
• 27:37
  Like there's, TV is like a 90 something percent failure rate
• 27:43
  like statistically.
• 27:45
  So if you do break through, it's, you know, it's unusual, right?
• 27:50
  But if you, but when you do, if you do,
• 27:53
  one of the things that happens is suddenly,
• 27:56
  and again, we had no frame of reference for this,
• 27:58
  you suddenly just start getting invited to shit
• 28:01
  by people you don't know,
• 28:03
  because you're kind of in the cool thing of the moment
• 28:07
  and people want you there, and you're like, cool.
• 28:10
  You know, I'm not gonna say no to Elton John's birthday party.
• 28:14
  We got Richard Branson invited us to his house for something.
• 28:18
  I mean, like, and you know, the theatre openings,
• 28:21
  movie premieres, like, and you're like, okay,
• 28:24
  I mean, like 10 minutes ago, I was just some snot-nosed student
• 28:28
  in Norwich, and now suddenly, like, people,
• 28:31
  and you learn very quickly that it's, you know,
• 28:34
  you're, you are to some degree being used,
• 28:37
  but you don't care when you're 22,
• 28:39
  you're just like, fuck it, I'm, I'm an Elton's.
• 28:43
  So yeah, it was, it was fun.
• 28:45
  It was really fun.
• 28:46
  Yeah, I wanted it was Elton, say, was he a fan of the show?
• 28:49
  Like, what was that?
• 28:50
  I think so, I think he must have been.
• 28:52
  Yeah, I mean, it was, it was enormously popular,
• 28:58
  but not like, well, I think like seven odd million people
• 29:03
  watching on BBC Two, which is a lot,
• 29:07
  but they were like young people and,
• 29:12
  I hate full word, but like, taste maker types.
• 29:16
  And journalists, like journalists loved it,
• 29:19
  because, frankly, they thought it was sort of about them,
• 29:23
  because lawyers, journalists in those days,
• 29:25
  you know, this is quite sort of late night,
• 29:27
  swashbuckly, you know, hard drinking, hard passing professions.
• 29:33
  And I think a lot of journalists were like,
• 29:36
  this is like my life.
• 29:37
  And I like this show, and they had a platform.
• 29:41
  So it was written about ad-nors, I mean, so much so,
• 29:45
  that when, by the time we came to the end of season two,
• 29:51
  and it was still this thing, I remember there was this strange period
• 29:56
  where the question of whether or not we would do a third season
• 29:59
  was being hotly debated in like the op-ed pages of the broadsheets,
• 30:04
  which is absurd, it's absurd, but that's kind of where we were at
• 30:09
  in that moment.
• 30:11
  So, and as my dad was right, never again, not like that.
• 30:16
  Not nonsense, nonsense.
• 30:18
  I mean, as you say, like, you know, the show took on a life of its own,
• 30:22
  and you guys all, you know, like, you know,
• 30:24
  it kind of, all of those actors, you know,
• 30:26
  yourself and Andrew Lincoln and the rest,
• 30:28
  like, you guys all kind of really did get a boost from it,
• 30:30
  and kind of shot up, you know, into the,
• 30:32
  into, into, I guess, stardom.
• 30:34
  And the next work you did after that, you know,
• 30:36
  which was your role as Peter in tantrums, to Ripley,
• 30:38
  which is one of my favorite things you've done.
• 30:40
  I guess it's very different from a life.
• 30:42
  Super different from this life.
• 30:44
  You know, Hollywood, you know, production,
• 30:46
  what was your experience working on that film, like,
• 30:48
  you know, and was it kind of your Hollywood break?
• 30:50
  Do you consider it like your Hollywood break?
• 30:52
  100% was my Hollywood break.
• 30:56
  I mean, honestly, I was pretty terrified most of the time
• 31:00
  because arguably the greatest actor
• 31:02
  of my generation, Philip Seymour Hoffman.
• 31:04
  Of course. Right.
• 31:06
  And not arguably, like, the greatest actor
• 31:08
  of my generation in the English-speaking world,
• 31:10
  I would say.
• 31:12
  I would say so.
• 31:14
  With, like, absurdly,
• 31:16
  a smaller part than I had in that movie,
• 31:20
  although, boy, is he indelible in that film,
• 31:24
  as he was in everything.
• 31:26
  But I was all of them, you know,
• 31:28
  Gwyneth, Matt, Jude, Kate,
• 31:30
  Blanchett, let's not forget her.
• 31:32
  Of course, of course.
• 31:34
  Like, they'd all, they're already,
• 31:36
  they'd already kind of broken through.
• 31:38
  And I'm like this kid
• 31:40
  who's been in a show about lawyers on the town,
• 31:44
  unlike the second channel on the BBC.
• 31:46
  And I was terrified, if I'm completely honest.
• 31:50
  It was, it was a lot to, it was a lot.
• 31:54
  And I, I did the best I could.
• 32:00
  I, I, I, I feel like my sort of,
• 32:06
  my, my fear didn't hold me.
• 32:10
  But I mean, Anthony Mingalla,
• 32:12
  may he rest in peace,
• 32:14
  was one of the most gentle
• 32:18
  and creatively igniting people I've ever had
• 32:22
  the privilege of being around.
• 32:24
  I mean, it's not like I was thrown to the walls
• 32:26
  and left on my own devices.
• 32:28
  Anthony was fully aware of like,
• 32:30
  you know, like this was quite a step up
• 32:32
  for Let All Me.
• 32:34
  And he was, you know, he,
• 32:36
  he raised the conditions for me
• 32:38
  to be able to do my job,
• 32:40
  the best I could at that time.
• 32:42
  But I,
• 32:44
  I did my abiding memory,
• 32:46
  is it just being like,
• 32:48
  also the other thing you've got to remember is,
• 32:50
  you know, it's very, very location heavy movie.
• 32:54
  And, you know, it's, in some ways,
• 32:56
  it's like a love letter to Italy.
• 32:58
  I mean, that was, Anthony would have been the first to admit.
• 33:00
  Like, he makes the English patient
• 33:02
  who wins nine Academy Awards.
• 33:04
  And then like, they're like, what do you want to do?
• 33:06
  And he's like, well, actually.
• 33:08
  And so it was, it was something that also
• 33:12
  can never, in this film economy,
• 33:16
  in an age like,
• 33:18
  it was a big budget art house film.
• 33:20
  Which, they don't exist anymore.
• 33:22
  They just don't.
• 33:24
  I mean, they barely existed then.
• 33:26
  They certainly don't exist now.
• 33:28
  So he, you know, it was like, I mean,
• 33:30
  you have to look up what the budget was.
• 33:32
  But it was, I'm thinking to say in the 60s
• 33:34
  to 80 million dollar range,
• 33:36
  which is a lot for something with an antihero
• 33:38
  at the center,
• 33:40
  like a sexually ambiguous antihero
• 33:42
  who murders people.
• 33:44
  And, you know,
• 33:48
  very location heavy.
• 33:50
  And so, a lot of the time
• 33:52
  we're filming in very public spaces
• 33:54
  in some of the most famous
• 33:56
  locations on the planet.
• 33:58
  Like, I did my first day of filming.
• 34:02
  I was doing a full-page scene
• 34:04
  with Gwyneth and Kate
• 34:06
  at the bottom of the Spanish steps in Rome,
• 34:10
  and the Piazza da Spagna.
• 34:12
  And they'd convert overnight.
• 34:14
  We rehearsed it the night before.
• 34:16
  It was meant to be like a cafe terrace.
• 34:18
  And we'd rehearsed it the night before.
• 34:20
  And then overnight, they changed
• 34:22
  every single shopfront
• 34:24
  to 1958 or whatever it was.
• 34:26
  And we came in the next morning,
• 34:28
  rehearsed again.
• 34:30
  So just to kind of lock down
• 34:32
  where they were going to put the camera.
• 34:34
  And then we went off for hours
• 34:36
  for so they could light.
• 34:38
  And then when we came back,
• 34:40
  there were thousands of people
• 34:42
  watching, thousands.
• 34:44
  And they're Italian.
• 34:46
  So they're not quiet.
• 34:48
  And it's hot as hell.
• 34:52
  And I'm generally wearing a duffel coat
• 34:54
  and a sport coat.
• 34:56
  And so it's hot
• 34:58
  that my experience in that film
• 35:00
  was a bit like trying to do street theatre
• 35:02
  with Mick Jagger.
• 35:04
  Because you're invariably doing a scene
• 35:08
  with one of the most famous actors
• 35:10
  and young actors on the planet.
• 35:12
  There's a minimum of a couple of
• 35:14
  thousand people who just stand it.
• 35:16
  They always had to rope off the areas.
• 35:18
  They're shot at scene with Matt
• 35:20
  in March Square in Venice.
• 35:22
  So there's already teaming with tourists.
• 35:24
  And then they roped off this area.
• 35:26
  And the people were like 15 deep.
• 35:28
  And we're just trying to do this thing.
• 35:30
  And so it was a lot to cope with for me.
• 35:34
  And I did my best.
• 35:36
  I haven't seen it in years.
• 35:38
  I know that
• 35:40
  one very, very rarely
• 35:42
  gets to be in any movie.
• 35:44
  Which truly, truly
• 35:46
  stands the test of time.
• 35:48
  And that you one could say is like an all-time
• 35:50
  classic.
• 35:52
  And that's probably the
• 35:54
  maybe one other.
• 35:56
  But that's one of maybe two.
• 35:58
  I've been in that like
• 36:00
  people I think will be watching
• 36:02
  that movie 50 years from now.
• 36:04
  And it's funny how these movies
• 36:06
  have new lives because of streaming platforms.
• 36:08
  And I remember when like
• 36:10
  Ripley landed on like Netflix.
• 36:12
  And then suddenly
• 36:14
  there's this huge new influx
• 36:16
  of a completely new audience.
• 36:18
  And
• 36:20
  and people really respond
• 36:22
  to that character.
• 36:24
  And I've always thought that
• 36:26
  and it might
• 36:28
  it might be conscious in people's
• 36:30
  the way people react to it.
• 36:32
  But
• 36:34
  you know, like the simple reading of Ripley is
• 36:36
  that, you know,
• 36:38
  he's a kind of
• 36:40
  parasite of sorts
• 36:42
  who sort of invades people's lives.
• 36:44
  And then when things don't go his way,
• 36:46
  he sort of acts out in ways
• 36:48
  that are, you know,
• 36:50
  psychotic really.
• 36:52
  But I would argue that actually
• 36:54
  the thing that everyone
• 36:56
  is responds to in that movie
• 36:58
  is that
• 37:00
  Tom Ripley's dilemma is about
• 37:02
  what it feels like to be excluded.
• 37:04
  And everybody knows
• 37:06
  what that feels like.
• 37:08
  Even the most popular person you know
• 37:10
  has had an experience
• 37:12
  where they've been in a situation
• 37:14
  where they're not
• 37:16
  in the middle of it.
• 37:18
  And it's awful.
• 37:20
  Like, you know, we evolved
• 37:22
  for connection
• 37:24
  and so
• 37:26
  I think that's why
• 37:28
  you know, I mean, that's his universal human theme.
• 37:30
  I guess
• 37:32
  TM
• 37:34
  and I think that's why it's got such legs.
• 37:36
  Also,
• 37:38
  you know,
• 37:40
  peak Jude
• 37:42
  like, I mean, we just talked about Paul Newman.
• 37:44
  Like, I think, I think Jude was giving Paul Newman
• 37:46
  a run for his money
• 37:48
  in the Golden God
• 37:50
  states.
• 37:52
  Like, what a thing to do.
• 37:54
  Like, come off the back of
• 37:56
  winning this Oscar for Goodwill Hunting
• 37:58
  being this newly minted young
• 38:00
  a list actor.
• 38:02
  And he's like, I'm going to play this guy.
• 38:04
  I'm going to be this weirdo.
• 38:06
  And I'm sure some of his agents
• 38:08
  will like, please don't do that.
• 38:10
  And he did such an incredible job.
• 38:12
  And it's such a
• 38:14
  delicate, nuanced, fragile,
• 38:16
  beautiful thing.
• 38:18
  And of course,
• 38:20
  obviously subsequently he's shown
• 38:22
  what insane range he's got.
• 38:24
  But it was like, in a way,
• 38:26
  I was, it was a real privilege
• 38:28
  to be at this
• 38:30
  witness to like one of the great
• 38:32
  movie star careers
• 38:34
  that we know of probably.
• 38:36
  I mean, like Matt, that
• 38:38
  mass
• 38:40
  filmography is pretty spectacular.
• 38:42
  And this was the first time he was like,
• 38:44
  he was in a position to make choices
• 38:46
  and fast the choice he made.
• 38:48
  Which is pretty incredible
• 38:50
  when he stops to think about it.
• 38:52
  Absolutely. And I mean,
• 38:54
  like, I mean, as you, as yourself, you know,
• 38:56
  I think you do a fantastic job of it.
• 38:58
  And as well, I mean, alongside all these
• 39:00
  incredible actors, as you mentioned.
• 39:02
  And despite everything you've just said about how, you know,
• 39:04
  the scale of the production and the fact that you work in Italy,
• 39:06
  all these thousands of people
• 39:08
  who are just desperate to sort of, I guess, catch a glimpse
• 39:10
  of what you guys were doing.
• 39:12
  Like, you know, you know, you know, you know,
• 39:14
  none of that comes off on screen at all.
• 39:16
  I guess you've had on this show.
• 39:18
  Yes.
• 39:20
  Which I was, I was very impressed, this is going to sound,
• 39:22
  so I don't, I don't mean sound patronizing.
• 39:24
  I was very impressed that you've had him on as a guest.
• 39:26
  Because the only real film nerds
• 39:28
  understand what a gigantic figure he is
• 39:32
  in the history of film.
• 39:34
  Absolutely.
• 39:36
  And some of the work he did in Ripley is,
• 39:38
  he might not have told you this story
• 39:40
  because he's the last person to say
• 39:42
  credit for anything.
• 39:44
  He's really one of the great geniuses.
• 39:46
  I'll tell you two stories about Walter.
• 39:48
  Right.
• 39:50
  So, obviously he worked very closely with Anthony.
• 39:52
  I don't know if he can't,
• 39:54
  English patient, did he?
• 39:56
  He did.
• 39:58
  He won the Oscar.
• 40:00
  So they had this relationship.
• 40:02
  And Walter's the kind of, I mean, you know,
• 40:04
  you get the rushes.
• 40:06
  He's doing assemblies, you know, as they go.
• 40:08
  But say there were
• 40:10
  78 days of principal photography.
• 40:14
  The day before principal photography began,
• 40:16
  he presented Anthony with a small
• 40:20
  lacquered Chinese box
• 40:22
  with a beautifully,
• 40:26
  not inlaid, but sort of a sort of label
• 40:30
  sort of lacquered onto the top of it.
• 40:32
  There's had something like
• 40:34
  Dr. Merch's daily prescription.
• 40:38
  And the way that it
• 40:40
  were 78
• 40:42
  tiny little
• 40:44
  hand rolls
• 40:46
  parchment scrolls
• 40:48
  tied with thread.
• 40:50
  And on every single one
• 40:52
  was a different
• 40:54
  aphorism thought
• 40:56
  quote
• 40:58
  like really thoughtfully chosen.
• 41:00
  And Walter said to Anthony,
• 41:02
  he was like every day,
• 41:04
  you know, as you're getting up,
• 41:06
  and then throw it away or burn it or whatever.
• 41:08
  And because Anthony told me about this,
• 41:10
  Walter would never have told me about this.
• 41:12
  And he said the crazy thing was
• 41:16
  every day, whatever the thing was,
• 41:20
  something would come up.
• 41:22
  And whatever Dr. Merch's prescription
• 41:24
  of that day had been,
• 41:26
  it was germane to kind of what was going down.
• 41:28
  And I'm like, that is such a generous artist
• 41:32
  to artist thing to do.
• 41:34
  This is love for Anthony and his respect for him.
• 41:38
  But to this day,
• 41:40
  it makes me gasp and it's thoughtfulness.
• 41:42
  And from the point of view of
• 41:44
  Walter's genius as an editor,
• 41:48
  we shot a scene that's not in the movie.
• 41:50
  It was cut from the movie.
• 41:52
  Me and Matt,
• 41:54
  in Venice,
• 41:56
  in
• 41:58
  there's some plazzo where I think he's been
• 42:00
  staying
• 42:02
  somehow.
• 42:04
  And the scene starts with the two of us
• 42:06
  going out into this balcony
• 42:08
  overlooking like the grand canal
• 42:10
  or something ridiculous.
• 42:12
  And at the beginning of the scene,
• 42:14
  I don't know that
• 42:16
  Jude's character is dead yet.
• 42:18
  Or maybe I never know if his character
• 42:20
  is dead, I can't remember.
• 42:22
  But I certainly, at this point, I don't know.
• 42:24
  And I start talking about him.
• 42:26
  And I start to be quite fondly.
• 42:28
  And you can sort of tell that
• 42:30
  you're dazzled by Dickie Greenleaf
• 42:32
  and sort of, you know.
• 42:34
  But by this day,
• 42:36
  Matt murdered him.
• 42:38
  And me talking about it,
• 42:42
  sort of sets Matt off.
• 42:44
  And he goes inside.
• 42:46
  And he's quite very overcome.
• 42:48
  Because like what he's done,
• 42:50
  suddenly, like,
• 42:52
  roars up from the, you know,
• 42:54
  the base of his spine.
• 42:56
  And he is incredibly overcome with emotion.
• 43:02
  And I remember when we shot the scene
• 43:04
  and Matt like,
• 43:06
  fucking lost it.
• 43:08
  Like he was really like
• 43:10
  inconsolably so, right?
• 43:12
  And we,
• 43:14
  and it went on in such a way that we sort of,
• 43:16
  you know, we were, I guess, sort of improvising somewhat
• 43:18
  to kind of
• 43:20
  react to what he was offering up.
• 43:24
  But the scene's not on the movie.
• 43:26
  However,
• 43:28
  at the end of the movie,
• 43:30
  when he has,
• 43:32
  he has to kill me or be,
• 43:34
  you know,
• 43:36
  when he comes over to the bed
• 43:40
  and, and I'm saying,
• 43:42
  say nice things about
• 43:44
  Tom, he says, say nice things about Tom Ripley
• 43:46
  and I start listing a bunch of stuff.
• 43:48
  And then it fades to black
• 43:50
  and you start to hear a bit of a noise of struggle.
• 43:52
  And then you hear this
• 43:56
  terrible, terrible noise of like,
• 44:00
  like a keening animal
• 44:02
  of weeping and wailing
• 44:04
  and just, you just very, very undone.
• 44:06
  That's the sound bed
• 44:08
  from that scene that was cut
• 44:10
  and Walter took that
• 44:12
  and he put it over that fade to black.
• 44:14
  And then when they fade up on
• 44:16
  such an iconic fine image.
• 44:20
  Like him in that, I think,
• 44:22
  with those mirrored doors
• 44:24
  going like that.
• 44:26
  Yeah, just one for the ages
• 44:28
  but like that's what makes Walter merchandise
• 44:30
  is like magpying
• 44:32
  from something that
• 44:34
  rather than going, oh, well that's cut.
• 44:36
  But he's like, yeah, but that bit I could use.
• 44:38
  And that's why he's Walter much.
• 44:40
  Exactly. And I mean,
• 44:42
  it's great to hear that, you know,
• 44:44
  like, obviously, you mentioned him
• 44:46
  because when we add him on the part,
• 44:48
  there wasn't quite enough time.
• 44:50
  Well, it's quite a career.
• 44:52
  And it's quite a career.
• 44:54
  So it was actually, so it was,
• 44:56
  we neglected to search on Ripley.
• 44:58
  And here's the contribution to it.
• 45:00
  So I appreciate you mentioning that.
• 45:02
  And because it's kind of like, you know,
• 45:04
  like endings are extremely important
• 45:06
  when it comes to Walter any story.
• 45:08
  And films are no exception.
• 45:10
  And to have a caper like that.
• 45:12
  What was it like actually shooting that scene?
• 45:14
  And then obviously as you say, like,
• 45:16
  I can't actually remember if we shot it visually.
• 45:22
  I think the intention was always to
• 45:26
  quite chillingly,
• 45:28
  like fade out.
• 45:30
  Because, you know, it's probably obvious what's happening.
• 45:32
  And they certainly filmed the sound of our struggle.
• 45:36
  But I think it would have, you know,
• 45:40
  Anthony had such impeccable taste.
• 45:42
  Like, you don't need to see it.
• 45:44
  It's actually, it's actually much worse.
• 45:46
  Not seeing it in a weird way.
• 45:48
  And what I do remember is, you know,
• 45:52
  and this speaks to kind of more,
• 45:54
  a more analog time.
• 45:56
  So that cabin was obviously a set.
• 45:58
  Because like an actual cabin is so small,
• 46:00
  like getting just the camera.
• 46:02
  But it was on a giant gimbal.
• 46:04
  So it was going like this.
• 46:08
  With the listeners.
• 46:10
  So it was tilting as if it was a bow.
• 46:12
  It was quite a strange.
• 46:14
  I never had, I mean,
• 46:16
  I then spent years of my life on gimbals,
• 46:20
  subsequently.
• 46:22
  But, um,
• 46:24
  but at that point, I'd never done it.
• 46:26
  And it was, you know, and you walk it.
• 46:28
  And we filmed it all in chinatitas studios.
• 46:30
  All the studio work.
• 46:32
  And I remember the first day I was there.
• 46:34
  I was just wandering around the back lot.
• 46:36
  And there's like, just leaning up against wars.
• 46:38
  You know, there's just shit from Felini films.
• 46:40
  Just littering the place.
• 46:42
  And you're just like, I can't believe I'm here.
• 46:46
  But the gimbal, it was like 15 feet in the air.
• 46:48
  There's great hydraulic thing.
• 46:50
  And then where there we were up in it.
• 46:52
  So it had a sense of technical
• 46:56
  grandeur that I hadn't really anticipated, I think.
• 47:00
  And I just say all those scenes with you and Matt.
• 47:02
  I mean, they're so fascinating in the way that you guys play them.
• 47:04
  Because it's all about what's, what's unsaid.
• 47:06
  It's all about the looks and the glances.
• 47:08
  At first you're almost kind of like, when you're watching
• 47:10
  you kind of like, is there something going on here?
• 47:12
  And then you go, oh, yes.
• 47:14
  But then like, I mean, what was it like playing those scenes with Matt?
• 47:16
  Because I guess the bulk of your scenes were with Matt.
• 47:18
  I mean, as you say, and he was, he was firing on all cylinders
• 47:20
  in this very unconventional role.
• 47:22
  I mean, what was it like playing those sort of quite delicate scenes, subtle scenes with him?
• 47:26
  Well, in the books, in the Heismuth book,
• 47:30
  Peter Smith Kingsley appears.
• 47:32
  But he's literally named once at a party, and that's it.
• 47:36
  He's not, he's not really a character in the books.
• 47:40
  And Anthony just took the name.
• 47:44
  And when we were talking about it before we started shooting, he was like,
• 47:48
  look, Peter is the only one of these characters who actually knows who he is.
• 47:52
  And is, and is secure in that.
• 47:56
  All these other characters are flailing around,
• 47:58
  either because they're sort of clueless rich kids
• 48:02
  who haven't been confronted with having to have any sense of
• 48:06
  who they might actually be underneath it all.
• 48:08
  And in Ripley's case, I mean, he sure as hell doesn't know who he is.
• 48:12
  And so he wanted this one person to be sort of
• 48:18
  rooted in a way that none of the other ones are.
• 48:22
  One of the other acts, as I can't remember who it is,
• 48:26
  I think they're meant well.
• 48:30
  But at the time I was like, oh, don't tell me that.
• 48:32
  But they said something like, oh, yeah, Peter's like,
• 48:34
  Anthony's idea of like a perfect person.
• 48:36
  And I was like, oh, thanks.
• 48:38
  That's not, that's no help at all.
• 48:42
  And if he was partly to do with his musician shit,
• 48:44
  and Anthony was a passionate music lover,
• 48:48
  and just partly to do with his solidity as a person
• 48:52
  and his security in his own self, I think.
• 48:56
  So he got to write this person the way he wanted to do it with no.
• 49:00
  So it's a confection of Anthony's own imagination.
• 49:05
  And I think, yes, those two characters feeling the other one out
• 49:10
  in terms of their relationship and whether it becomes something
• 49:16
  more than just side-long losses.
• 49:21
  You know, don't forget, in that era, you know,
• 49:26
  in the UK, it's still illegal to be gay.
• 49:30
  In Italy, I think people, I mean, very Catholic country.
• 49:34
  But I think, you know, it's just, I probably less problematic
• 49:39
  in that time.
• 49:40
  And I think there's probably an element of,
• 49:43
  Peter has ended up here because precisely because he wants
• 49:47
  to be who he is, and he doesn't want to hide who he is.
• 49:52
  So I, so it was quite interesting, given what I've told you
• 49:56
  about how insecure I was feeling like as Jack doing,
• 50:02
  making the movie, that I meant to be like the most secure
• 50:05
  character.
• 50:06
  So it was a bit of a stress.
• 50:08
  So, and it was a bit like, you know, I'm the one meant to be
• 50:10
  like leading, not leading Matt along, that's wrong.
• 50:15
  But like, you know, just sort of steering the ship a bit in terms
• 50:19
  of how these two get to the next stage in a relationship,
• 50:24
  which is even, you know, even in Italy in that time,
• 50:27
  it's all, you know, it's very kind of,
• 50:32
  we go to, is this what I think it is?
• 50:35
  Are you who I think you are?
• 50:37
  You know, it's because people have to be very, very careful
• 50:39
  that it's sort of, you know, I mean, it's always, you know,
• 50:42
  well, we were talking before this, you know, I'm obviously
• 50:45
  old Gen X or you're a millennial.
• 50:47
  Like, it's one of the things that I love about, like, you know,
• 50:52
  one of the few, like, very positive social changes
• 50:57
  that's taken place sort of in my adult life is that millennials
• 51:00
  and below, they couldn't give a shit who anyone loves.
• 51:03
  Like, it's like a not an issue for you guys.
• 51:06
  And, and like, our Gen X's were like the last generation
• 51:11
  where it was still, you know, not a cake walk necessarily
• 51:15
  to like come out and for people to be like, oh, cool.
• 51:18
  So, you know, it wasn't, it was really not that long ago.
• 51:22
  And so it was kind of interesting to play someone
• 51:26
  who in some ways, I suppose, in terms of his sexual identity
• 51:30
  was rather ahead of his time, I guess,
• 51:33
  is a way of looking at it or, or secure enough
• 51:36
  that he didn't feel the need to hide it.
• 51:38
  Yeah, and then that's what's, so makes the ending so tragic
• 51:42
  is the fact that, as you say, he, you know, he is kind of,
• 51:44
  in a way, he's an innocent, in a lot of ways.
• 51:47
  And Ripley knows that.
• 51:48
  And, and that's what makes the ending so tragic.
• 51:51
  It's as soon as he sees K on that boat, it's like, fuck.
• 51:55
  Yeah.
• 51:56
  So he knows the deal.
• 51:57
  Yeah.
• 51:58
  He knows the score and it's like, oh, great.
• 52:00
  You know, bringing those, that all of that to life with Matt,
• 52:03
  that sort of nuanced way, was he, what was he like as a scene partner
• 52:06
  then like to bring all that to life?
• 52:07
  Just a dreamy professional.
• 52:10
  Like, he was so prepared.
• 52:12
  And like, Ripley's quite gaunt and physically gaunt.
• 52:19
  And Matt was like, you know, it was like a sort of sad chicken breast
• 52:23
  and the salad every night in five miles on the running machine.
• 52:26
  And like, he was so, and like, hours every night,
• 52:31
  looking at the next day's scenes whilst eating a sad chicken breast.
• 52:36
  And he, you know, he took the responsibility of being like number one
• 52:41
  on the call sheet incredibly seriously.
• 52:44
  So all my, you know, insecurities that I was walking into the room
• 52:49
  probably just visibly emanating insecurity.
• 52:53
  He really put me at my ease.
• 52:56
  And, and it was, you know, quite quickly I got over the like fuck
• 53:01
  I'm in doing a scene with Matt Damon.
• 53:04
  And that's the mark of a, of a, of a generous actor.
• 53:08
  Now, he was, as he, and look, the, the, the, the tale with Matt's career
• 53:17
  about what an amazing professional is, is how much repeat business he gets from directors.
• 53:22
  He works with the same directors over and over and over and over again.
• 53:26
  Because they're like, I want that guy again.
• 53:28
  Because he's a dream to work with.
• 53:31
  And, and if, if Anthony had lived longer, I'm sure they would have gone back
• 53:38
  around again for another, whatever it could have been.
• 53:41
  I mean, like, there's such a, such a wonderful directorial career way too sure.
• 53:46
  Like, he should be making wonderful movies now.
• 53:50
  So yeah, he was, it was, he was the soul of generosity as a pro for me.
• 53:58
  Because I was, I felt like my head was just spinning on my shoulders with, with sort of terror.
• 54:05
  Um, the truth be told.
• 54:08
  Yeah, that's the impression I get about him, you know, from a lot of the people
• 54:12
  who've worked him, yeah, he's incredibly generous.
• 54:14
  And, and as you say, that movie is, is really stood the test of time.
• 54:17
  And it enjoyed, it's enjoyed a great second life.
• 54:19
  I mean, so, and so much has taken, has taken something from it from the, from the film,
• 54:22
  and the original novel, of course.
• 54:24
  Saltburn, most recently, I think being a key example, which I think, you know, you could argue,
• 54:28
  take, you know, really, I mean, you know, you know, yeah.
• 54:31
  Yes.
• 54:32
  Yes.
• 54:33
  The Heismith estate will be calling an Emerald Finale's agent any moment now.
• 54:39
  It was remarkable actually, because I hadn't seen the movie actually.
• 54:42
  I saw Saltburn first, you know, so, yeah, hands up.
• 54:45
  So, but then watching Ripley, you go.
• 54:47
  Oh, yeah.
• 54:48
  I know this guy.
• 54:50
  I mean, you know, hey, but, um, but yeah, no, it's a film that really stands the test of time.
• 54:57
  And another job that you did, you know, shortly after, I mean, literally,
• 55:00
  I think we're in the year after Ripley came out, you know, small screen British,
• 55:03
  you know, coupling is a, the show, which is, which I think was probably one of the first things
• 55:08
  I saw you in it is still such a brilliant piece of work.
• 55:11
  It's even Moffat wrote it and created it.
• 55:13
  He obviously went on to do Sherlock and Doctor Who and so much great stuff.
• 55:16
  Looking back on that show, because I guess that was the most sort of explicitly comedic thing
• 55:19
  you've done at that point.
• 55:20
  Is that fair to say?
• 55:21
  Oh, totally.
• 55:22
  And, um, you know, it's not traditionally one doesn't do a multi-camera sitcom on BBC 2
• 55:32
  straight after you've done a giant Hollywood movie.
• 55:36
  However, I, A, I couldn't believe anyone wanted me to do that kind of thing.
• 55:43
  And B, um, multi-camera sitcom, I mean, no one does anymore really.
• 55:50
  I mean, there's, like, they don't really exist.
• 55:53
  And it's a very, very, um, specific format.
• 55:57
  There's nothing, there's nothing else like it in show business.
• 56:00
  In TV, in movies, in theatre, like, it's a sort of weird hybrid of television and theatre.
• 56:06
  Because you've got a live studio audience and you need them there.
• 56:10
  But you're also not playing it to them.
• 56:13
  It's very, it's quite, it takes a minute to get used to that.
• 56:17
  Um, but over and above, my interest in kind of just, um, experiencing as many different, uh, genres, I guess, as one can in a career, you've alluded to Steven Moffa.
• 56:33
  I mean, he's done questionably one of the great comedy rises of this century.
• 56:39
  Um, on, on TV.
• 56:41
  And I, I think I touched on this earlier talking about doing plays at school, which, of course, you can cut out, uh, after the fact, please do God.
• 56:50
  Um, but I think I touched on fast and how difficult would it let you have to be a masterful structuralist to be able to fashion that, especially in 28 minutes.
• 57:02
  And, and what I think makes the comedy of that show works so effectively is that each episode is, is, is a 28 minute fast.
• 57:12
  And it takes as kind of innocuous situation and it cranks it and it cranks it until the sense of cannot hold.
• 57:19
  And that can, you know, that kind of creates quite a sort of delirious comic energy.
• 57:25
  Um, and of course, if it helps, if you've got Richard Coil doing Richard Coil shit.
• 57:31
  Um, but so yeah, I, I, I did it because I thought no one's ever going to ask me to do something like this again.
• 57:38
  So I should probably take, and they haven't, um, partly maybe, maybe because of my performance, but also because no, they don't get made anymore.
• 57:47
  Really, very rarely. So it was, um, and it was so fun because, you know, like,
• 57:54
  laughter is such an amazingly immediate form of feedback when you're a performer.
• 58:01
  Um, and as I say, this kind of weird juggling act of, you know, you're trying to generate laughs, obviously, it's a comedy.
• 58:11
  But learning how to kind of work the audience a bit and ride the laughs.
• 58:18
  And you know, if there is a big laugh, then you've got to, you kind of got to stop a bit, but don't stop for too long, because you've got to maintain the energy of the scene.
• 58:26
  So it's just sort of, it's as I say, it's a very uniquely sort of hybridized format.
• 58:32
  It's also the only format where you take a bow before you've done anything, which always strikes me as really unimproper.
• 58:40
  But you sort of get introduced by the warm up, man, to the studio audience and you run out and they're like, I'm, here's Gina Bellburn.
• 58:47
  And then you take a bow and you're, and I remember every time I do it in my head, I'll be like, could be shit.
• 58:53
  Um, so yeah, um, I had such fun doing it.
• 58:59
  And, um, and I'm probably, I should think, I can say with some confidence, I'll probably never do a multi-camera sitcom again, because they just don't really exist anymore.
• 59:08
  But it was a shame, because as I say, like, you're so brilliant in it. I mean, as the whole cast, I mean, it's such a great chemistry between you and Gina and Sarah and Ben.
• 59:15
  We had a lot of fun.
• 59:16
  Okay. Yeah. So it's a, are you guys, I mean, because you're talking about the dislike cast, you guys.
• 59:19
  Oh, yeah.
• 59:20
  Oh, my God. Yeah.
• 59:21
  You guys.
• 59:22
  Yeah. Uh, yes. Absolutely.
• 59:24
  We've all remained friends ever since I've, in fact, I, I worked and I'm continue to work with Sarah again for the first time in 25 years as of last year.
• 59:34
  We're doing a show called the four sites together.
• 59:38
  So it was really kind of like, oh, here we come full circle. And now I like parents.
• 59:43
  And we've got nearly adult children. And it's like, oh, God, Steven Sue have come a long way from, so it's, you know, that's one of the nice again, the tribal aspects of being an actor.
• 59:54
  But one of the lovely things about being an actor is that, and I suppose it's the sort of nature of what we do.
• 1:00:00
  But you can work with someone very intensely for a period of time and then not seen them for 20 years.
• 1:00:05
  And then when you see them again, you're like, anyway, as I was saying, and, and it's, and you're just going to pick up right out where you left off.
• 1:00:12
  And, and so yeah, again, and also this.
• 1:00:17
  The live studio audience thing, you are forged in a very particular fire because it is live.
• 1:00:24
  And it's, you know, and, and of course, it's not quite the high wire out of the theater is because you can make mistakes.
• 1:00:32
  And of course, the audience love it when you make mistakes because it's a bit like, you know, people go to see F1 for crashes, not perfectly executed laps.
• 1:00:42
  And generally speaking, people go to see sitcoms being a film because they want to see people make mistakes and sort of either laugh or whatever.
• 1:00:53
  But it's, you know, it's much more adrenalized than just filming something.
• 1:01:00
  And you mentioned you and Sarah Alexander, of course, you place, you know, Susan, you know, your girlfriend partner in the, in the show.
• 1:01:06
  You know, your characters are essentially sort of like, and I guess in some ways, we were inspired by our avatars for Steven himself.
• 1:01:13
  And so, you know, Susan being Sue virtue his producer is wife.
• 1:01:18
  Did you guys have a look Steven and Sue for inspiration or for like direction in that regard or like, were you looking to them as like that, you know.
• 1:01:25
  It was, it was, it was, it was, it was done in such an unprecious way.
• 1:01:31
  It was sort of a, you know, it was a bit of a how and a hat really.
• 1:01:35
  It was sort of, and they were very, they were like, don't feel boxed in by this.
• 1:01:41
  It's just sort of, it's a sort of not a secret joke.
• 1:01:46
  It's sort of some of the absurdities of our early courtship are somewhat revisited in some of this material, but not really.
• 1:01:56
  But I will say there is one similarity that I certainly, my character, Steve had with Steven, which is that Steven, a lot, Steven's own like when you're with him.
• 1:02:09
  His personal comic energy can be quite ranty and, and when he gets ahead of steam up and he sort of goes off on these flights of fancy, which he would write for me, but like once a season and there's, there's generally an episode where I go off.
• 1:02:28
  For like, which is again, so the last year, the audience thing, it's like a full page or two pages of just me droning on sort of, you know, it's a bit of a kind of comedy slalom.
• 1:02:43
  And that was very much borrowed from his own, I mean, he's very self-aware, Steven, and he knows that that's kind of how he sometimes can be.
• 1:02:53
  So, so I did get, I did get that part of him, which is very true to Steven.
• 1:02:58
  So like the lesbian, Spank, Inferno, Ran, and the cushion rage and all that.
• 1:03:02
  The cushion rage, the cushion rage definitely. I cannot, I cannot confirm or deny Steven's own pre-elections for 90's VHS based pornography.
• 1:03:13
  But we leave your, leave your listeners or asking when he comes on your show.
• 1:03:17
  What you just said there about the format of the show, like this multi-camera sitcom and how that doesn't really exist anymore.
• 1:03:22
  It's interesting to me because when you look back at Cupplig and I sort of the landscape of British comedy at that time, like early 2000's, you had shows like the office and peep show.
• 1:03:31
  Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  And space then, like, you know, League of Gentlemen, all these different shows kind of comedy was kind of.
• 1:03:35
  Oh, League of Gentlemen. Oh.
• 1:03:37
  Yeah.
• 1:03:38
  Oh, my God.
• 1:03:40
  I mean, what a work of art.
• 1:03:43
  Like those guys, like, I think they're three of the best actors ever to have lived.
• 1:03:49
  Like, there's nothing they can't do. Nothing. What a show.
• 1:03:54
  But yes, all the things you've named there are quite weird.
• 1:04:02
  And ours wasn't weird, really. It was very like, you know, three men, three women.
• 1:04:09
  It's all real world stuff that it's multi-camera, much more kind of trad framing.
• 1:04:19
  Obviously, what happened within that frame was pretty bonkers.
• 1:04:22
  And also, you know, there is some very structurally daring and difficult to pull off.
• 1:04:30
  Well, I'm slightly, I mean, wasn't there an episode where it was split screen like the whole like that was really hard to do.
• 1:04:38
  Because we had to do it in real time because otherwise the audience has no idea what's going on.
• 1:04:46
  And then there's that one where, I mean, this is a credit to Richard Coil's comic genius.
• 1:04:51
  But like, where doesn't he fall in other than his Rayleigh girl?
• 1:04:54
  He just made that language up.
• 1:04:56
  Steve didn't write that. That was just rich, just saying weird shit.
• 1:05:01
  Maybe that's wrong. Steve will be furious that I said that, but I'm pretty sure.
• 1:05:05
  Anyway, so there were some, there was some, it was structurally quite daring within that kind of 20 minute format.
• 1:05:13
  But it's, I mean, that and say League of Gentleman are very like apples and oranges.
• 1:05:17
  But like, just, you root said that, just reminded me of like, I just, I'm to this day.
• 1:05:23
  And you can't get it anywhere.
• 1:05:25
  Like this, that there's not streaming anywhere.
• 1:05:28
  It's like, it's almost like the master tapes have been like reabsorbed into Royston, Vazie, and we're never going to see them again.
• 1:05:34
  I'm sure there's somewhere, but you can't stream it anywhere.
• 1:05:38
  Is it not on I play? Do you not get it in the US?
• 1:05:40
  I don't think you can.
• 1:05:42
  I, someone told me that there's some rights issue that they're like, I don't know.
• 1:05:49
  Those guys obviously own it.
• 1:05:51
  And I, you know, quite rightly, they don't want someone just getting it.
• 1:05:54
  I mean, it's, I think it's one of the great achievements in British television, let alone comedy.
• 1:06:01
  So yeah, no, I can't find it.
• 1:06:03
  And I occasionally drone all about it to someone over here who's never heard of it.
• 1:06:08
  And I'm like, no, you don't understand.
• 1:06:10
  A, this is the most British thing you've ever seen in your life.
• 1:06:13
  And B, they're three of the best actors that you will ever see anywhere doing everything and anything.
• 1:06:21
  Like every time any of them does anything, I'm always like, okay, where can I see them?
• 1:06:28
  When do I go?
• 1:06:29
  Because I just, I just love them all.
• 1:06:31
  Anyway.
• 1:06:32
  Have you, have you been following like in Sunday, benign and like, like a villain?
• 1:06:35
  I was quite late to inside number nine, but yes.
• 1:06:39
  And I mean, I, if I'm feeling particularly sad, I will watch.
• 1:06:46
  There's an amazing series of outtakes from that piece of cake series in a car where
• 1:06:54
  Richard Smith is in the back, singing along to Mr. Bumbastic.
• 1:07:00
  Look it up.
• 1:07:01
  It's, it's spectacular.
• 1:07:04
  It's spectacular.
• 1:07:05
  I've never heard of this.
• 1:07:07
  This is incredible.
• 1:07:08
  After this, first thing you do, go and watch that.
• 1:07:11
  It's just because Richard Smith's so funny that piece of cake and the actress, I can't remember her name, which is terrible.
• 1:07:18
  They, they just cannot keep it together.
• 1:07:21
  It's just a series of outtakes because the other two just can't stop laughing because Reese is just doing, he's just making shit up.
• 1:07:29
  But it's, you know, it's a testament to his comic genius, really.
• 1:07:33
  He's, he's brilliant.
• 1:07:34
  I mean, he's, he's so good.
• 1:07:35
  I mean, I remember even if you just watch like his little rolls like in stuff like space, you know, when he's doing more stuff.
• 1:07:40
  Oh my God.
• 1:07:41
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:07:42
  I hadn't thought of that.
• 1:07:43
  All of that stuff.
• 1:07:44
  Or just everything.
• 1:07:45
  But yeah, I mean, that whole landscape of British comedy that was kind of changing.
• 1:07:48
  As you say, like coupling was kind of planting the flag down.
• 1:07:50
  You know, the format was quite traditional.
• 1:07:52
  Yeah.
• 1:07:53
  That, that camera setup.
• 1:07:54
  But then like, you know, you guys and Stephen were being so inventive with the structure and inside that.
• 1:08:00
  It's a shame because it doesn't always get recognized, I feel personally.
• 1:08:03
  I don't always feel people, you know, when we talk about the comedy from that time.
• 1:08:06
  Like, you know, the great comedy shows of that time.
• 1:08:08
  Well, I think that, I think it's partly because it is in this rather more,
• 1:08:14
  more tragic rapper with the W.
• 1:08:19
  Not, you know what I'm saying.
• 1:08:21
  And you know, all those shows you've just listed.
• 1:08:25
  It's like, smack the pony.
• 1:08:27
  I mean, it would, it would be remiss of me not to mention something more to finding that my dear wife was in the green wing.
• 1:08:35
  Yeah.
• 1:08:36
  Like, those were such paradigm shifting shows.
• 1:08:40
  Like in the way that we'd never seen anything like that.
• 1:08:43
  So I think probably that's what it is.
• 1:08:45
  That said, you know, almost more than anything I've ever done.
• 1:08:52
  Like, I get people coming up to me about coupling more than anything else.
• 1:08:59
  Because, you know, life is hard.
• 1:09:02
  And people, you know, like to laugh and be just taken away from whatever the fuck it is they're having to deal with,
• 1:09:09
  which is, you know, we, life is hard.
• 1:09:12
  And, you know, it's, it's one of those shows that I think for people, you know,
• 1:09:18
  over the decades since it finished, it's like something that they return to because it's like it's a banker.
• 1:09:24
  Like, and so I get the sense that people like have watched it over and over and over again.
• 1:09:32
  And it, you know, it's meaningful to people, something that makes them giggle that much.
• 1:09:39
  And so, and I've seen this in watching, I mean, like my wife is a far more talented comic actor than I will ever be.
• 1:09:49
  And she's been in many, many things that are kind of legendarily hilarious.
• 1:09:54
  And watching people respond to her in the world.
• 1:09:59
  And if a lot of it is to do, like the, the sort of love she gets is because she's made people laugh so much.
• 1:10:07
  And that's, you know, that's a powerful thing, I think.
• 1:10:10
  So you say like you guys will be walking down the street and someone will go like, you know, hey, Steve, fuck up a little while she'll get, hey, missy, like that kind of thing.
• 1:10:17
  Well, generally it's just her, like she's, she's much more recognizable than I am.
• 1:10:22
  And I think actually her brand of comic madness is something that's so indelible for people that when they, when they love what she does, they really love it.
• 1:10:34
  No, no, I, I happily received into the shadows when someone's having a small aneurysm because they realize who whites in the shop.
• 1:10:45
  Fantastic. And like, and just have interest on that subject, like you come from a family of sort of actors, like, you know, your parents were actors, like, and then now being obviously married to an actor.
• 1:10:54
  What's that like, kind of, you know, you both work in the same craft?
• 1:10:57
  I mean, you know, we have a child. I mean, it's generally scheduling issues as much as anything else because I think I might have touched on this earlier.
• 1:11:08
  The thing about being a parent and an actor is that you are either omnipresent or omnipresent.
• 1:11:16
  There's no kind of middle ground because it's the nature of the world. You're, you know, you're either not in between things or you're gone generally.
• 1:11:25
  So it's generally sort of that, but in the case of, you know, Michelle, I saw her in a play a year before I met her.
• 1:11:35
  And I was like, who is that? Oh, my God. And then I met her by chance a year later and we've been together ever since. But, but I, I, you know, but I, she did not grow up in a family of actors. And you're like, she, she grew up in Glasgow.
• 1:11:55
  And like the, the idea of a career as an actor seemed like as bad as probably as being an astronaut, I think, probably. And but she's just so her sort of raw, unique talent is so undeniable.
• 1:12:13
  Like she really is kind of one of one in terms of what she brings to the party. And fun enough, she'll be embarrassed that I tell a story, but she's not interested to stop me. So I'm going to, but it's, it's, it's, but I, I did a show a few years ago.
• 1:12:31
  I'm not going to name this actress because then she'll be embarrassed, but she's a wonderful, wonderful young, very funny actress. And we had lots of scenes together. And, and for ages, I was just like, I was just really enjoying like how kind of inventive and brilliant she was.
• 1:12:48
  We chow away, you know, between saps and after about a month, she, she's a little older than you, but not much. And, and she said, I can't tell you something. I've been dying to tell you this. And I went, what?
• 1:13:04
  And she said, when I was a kid, I would watch Greenway. And she was like, and I wanted to be an actor. And I knew I was kind of a bit weird and funny. And she went, until I saw your wife in that show, I didn't know that women were allowed to behave like that.
• 1:13:20
  And it sort of opened a door in my mind. And I was like, and it just kind of changed. It was a paradigm shifting thing for me, which is probably the nicest compliment I've ever heard.
• 1:13:32
  And, and the thing is, is I sort of feel the same way. Like she's, she's so unique and, and indelible and almost everything she does. And, and everything she does.
• 1:13:44
  That I, I feel very lucky to have been around it all these nearly 30 years that we've been together. Good Lord.
• 1:13:52
  Well, that's so sweet. Well, I tell you what, if Michelle ever comes from the show, I'm going to tell you said that.
• 1:13:56
  She'll be livid.
• 1:13:58
  I've seen, I've seen why she's absolutely, she only plays terrifying people. She couldn't be less terrifying.
• 1:14:08
  I mean, so coupling, wraps in 2004, you know, our last series goes out. And then the same year, parts of the Caribbean comes out, which I guess in many ways, I mean, would it be fair to say is the big, it's sort of scaled.
• 1:14:20
  There's a sheer scale is the biggest thing you've, you've worked on. I mean, what are your memories of working on that fun playing Commodore, you know, Norton, this great character, you know, it's great upper-crust character.
• 1:14:30
  Well, you're not wrong about the scale. And the interesting thing is, is that if you asked any of the people in the involvement from Johnny to Keira to Orlando to Jeffrey to any of us, none of us have been on movies of that scale before or since because movies don't get made like that anymore.
• 1:14:50
  Because, because it's period, apart from yes, okay, the CGI skeletons in the first one, everything else is practical, everything else is real.
• 1:15:02
  The boats are real, like, like the explosions are real. The numbers of people are real. And, and we, I remember we, we shot the first kind of, you know, and again, it took like half a year to shoot.
• 1:15:18
  That's pretty, but we, we shot in LA for like the first couple of months and then the whole unit was flown down to St Vincent, I think, to shoot the Caribbean stuff.
• 1:15:32
  They charged it a jumbo jet to take us down there. And it was like being in Led Zeppelin. I was on a jumbo jet on which I knew every single passenger, which is like, what the fuck is that?
• 1:15:47
  Like, and then we got to, and then the, I remember that like the, the runways in Vincent was too short for a jumbo jet, so we had to land on, I think, in Bob Bados.
• 1:15:56
  And then there were like 40 puddle jump of like small planes waiting for us. And there was people with clipboards and they're like, you're in playing one, you're in plane 16, you're in plane 32.
• 1:16:10
  And we all found out across the tarmac, and then we're flown to St Vincent. And then when we would go to work in the morning, we'd go to work on a powerboat, like skimming across the, like it was insane.
• 1:16:23
  And then you'd arrive at this, and I remember like you, I'd look at the call sheet occasionally. And I remember, you know, we're in the middle of nowhere.
• 1:16:34
  And the caterers were making like 700 lunches a day, right?
• 1:16:41
  But no one does it like that anymore, like the kind of the invading army version of filmmaking where you fly hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people to the far side of the earth to really hard to get into an out of locations where everything is practical.
• 1:17:02
  And at the time, I remember thinking, well, because you know CGI was started to work its way into everything.
• 1:17:12
  And I was like, this might be, and I'm, you know, I think it's probably one of the very, very last of its kind in that regard.
• 1:17:22
  And, and of course, now it's, you know, we're all just wearing great pajamas covered in ping pong balls, standing in a green box.
• 1:17:31
  And that's how you do that stuff now. But back then, you had to do that. And it was, it was, yeah, I mean, how could it not be one of the more memorable experiences of one's life? It was extraordinary, extraordinary.
• 1:17:45
  And I know, and only Bill, no, he was, Bill, I was the only building in the green box with the ping pong ball.
• 1:17:50
  I know Paul Bill, like, like we were all dressed up except for Bill.
• 1:17:55
  And yet he gives this incredibly powerful performance. And I remember when I first saw the finished article, and I'm pretty sure the second one won the Oscar for visual effects.
• 1:18:09
  And I was like, and the first time he came on screen as that character, I'm like, well, I mean, that's, that's just a squid man in like you could not see any join like it was so seamless and perfect.
• 1:18:22
  And like the amount of compute and just artistry and like to, it was bananas like everything about everything about the execution of those movies is on a scale and technical complexity, the like of which I will never be a part of again.
• 1:18:43
  Yeah, that kind of more traditional, I say, if you go and do something like that, I mean, like you say, CGI was coming into was was was not in its infancy, it was really becoming more and more part of the process, but like it was you had to go and actually do it.
• 1:18:56
  I mean, and surrounded by all the impact will play. And again, like another incredible cast, Jonathan Price, Kieran Knightley, you know, joined depth. What was like working with that cast and that you guys still, you know, oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean, yes,
• 1:19:10
  Johnny was a dear, has been a dear friend ever since, Jonathan is a great friend of mine. Kieran, we are worlds of somewhat collided again over the years. I mean, she was 17 when we did that first picture, which think about that.
• 1:19:26
  Yeah, like like she's, she's the female center of this movie and she's not even at a level taking age is sort of pretty crazy when you stop to think about it.
• 1:19:37
  Absolutely.
• 1:19:38
  So yes, of course, we were like Kevin McNally, McKenzie Croke, like all of them, like we were together for five years doing those movies. It's a long time.
• 1:19:49
  And it was a crazy adventure, obviously. And also it was like, I remember quite soon after we started and I'd start to do a few things with Johnny and I was like, wow, what an anarchic performance for this is a Disney movie.
• 1:20:05
  Like this is crazy. And of course, he is the secret source that makes those movies really hum because it's so uniquely him, like he, like no one else could play that character that I can think of, not like that.
• 1:20:23
  And it sort of elevates it. And also Gore Verbinski just to be clear, like Gore has shown what an amazingly like talk about a man who just hopscotch is from genres and formats.
• 1:20:39
  And I haven't seen the new one, the sound rock or I can't wait to see it. And it looks bananas and the kind of bananas that I associate with Gore.
• 1:20:49
  But yeah, it was, of course, it was, you spend that much time doing something that immersive.
• 1:20:57
  Yeah, unless you're a sociopath, like Ripley, you hopefully say friends forever.
• 1:21:07
  Yeah. And it kind of plays into, as you say, that tribal quality of being an actor and show business, the fact that it's a troop.
• 1:21:13
  And on those movies, they're such, they're so huge. And like, again, you're working on, you know, for so many, so much time.
• 1:21:20
  Yeah, you form that, I guess you do form that sort of tribal or trooper mentality.
• 1:21:25
  Yeah, we didn't get tattoos like the Lord of the Rings lot, but we, everything but I mean, yeah, there were, there were some long, rum infused nights.
• 1:21:36
  Over many, many years, where we, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, it was absolutely unforgettable. And, and we were a troop.
• 1:21:47
  Yeah, you're right. And doing, and doing something that, you know, yes, a great roleicking adventure is lovely.
• 1:21:57
  But to have this quite anarchic and sometimes very silly level of humor in it as well.
• 1:22:06
  And also, I've always thought that it's so rare to have a family movie that like comedically operates like the Simpson's almost like there's a whole layer of gags that kids have no idea what's going on.
• 1:22:20
  And then there's all this other stuff that the kids can enjoy. So the parents aren't suicidal about having to watch this film for the 57th time with their child.
• 1:22:30
  Because it, you know, Jerry Brockheimer is also the, the, the genius producer that he is because he really understands what a four quadrant movie is.
• 1:22:41
  And he delivers them over and over again. And, and I remember when I think we were doing this, the sequels.
• 1:22:49
  And we were back, where we, in some Vincent, and again, we started an L.A. flown back down on the job mode. And this time we're doing them two movies back to back.
• 1:23:00
  And it took nearly a year to do that. And it was the first morning. And I wasn't working that morning. And came in for breakfast in our hotel. And Jerry was at another table with this having breakfast with his wife.
• 1:23:15
  And I, we said hello to each other. And I said, he's not kind of like a bit nervous on these days when I hear we are again like all 750 of us, like, you know, you're signing the checks, like, and, and he looked at me and he went, he went, listen, I hire the best people in every department.
• 1:23:33
  And I trust them and implicitly to all do their jobs. I'm the most relaxed person here. And I was like, wow, that is, that's why you're you and I'm not.
• 1:23:44
  So yeah, I always remember that.
• 1:23:47
  And then, and going into the character that you play, of course, you know, the Commodore, Norenton, James, I mean, like your character in some ways, you know, back at his movies, has the most sort of dramatic art.
• 1:23:57
  Because he does of all of them, like, you know, like the first movie, upper crust, you know, Commodore, second movie, washed up drunk, washed up drunk kind of a pirate.
• 1:24:06
  Yeah, I know who out who outpower is the pirates and gets the thing in that, you know, like, yeah, you know, obviously we didn't know we were going to do sequels when we did the first one.
• 1:24:18
  And I had no expectation, even though it's a sort of standard contractual thing, I was contracted to maybe do a sequel, but like, that's just, you know, the pro forma thing really for everyone.
• 1:24:31
  And I didn't really necessary, I had no expectation that they'd ask me back.
• 1:24:37
  And then they did, and then I got the script for the second one, and I'm like, oh my God, like this is like a different human.
• 1:24:48
  And it was such a fun turn to be able to kind of play with.
• 1:24:56
  And also, you know, I alluded to the comedy of it, but like, you know, obviously people come for the buckling of the swash mainly.
• 1:25:05
  And I remember the first time I read the script for Demons Chess, and I got to the bit where the Millwheel sword fight with me, Johnny and Orlando starts.
• 1:25:19
  And it's sort of a beach, I think, and it's like it says like Jack Sparrow draws.
• 1:25:24
  Well, Turner draws, Gaurings and draws, and then we're kind of triangle.
• 1:25:29
  And then it just says, and so begins the most kick ass incredible sword fight in cinema history.
• 1:25:37
  And I was like, what's going to happen here?
• 1:25:40
  And then, and it was not a simple thing to shoot.
• 1:25:44
  I mean, that took nearly half a year to shoot because it was different locations, different elements.
• 1:25:50
  Just, and again, I had the presence of mind to be like, remember this Jack, because you're not going to do something.
• 1:25:59
  I thank God.
• 1:26:00
  I mean, it's also physically very demanding.
• 1:26:04
  Well, I was going to say that I remember you saying at the time that like the Demons Chess shoot specifically that sword fight was, I guess, the most challenging physically demanding thing part of a job that you've done.
• 1:26:13
  I mean, is that still the case?
• 1:26:14
  Because yeah, I think it is because sword fighting is a very explosive physical activity.
• 1:26:22
  So it's, I suppose in modern parlance, you call it high intensity interval training.
• 1:26:30
  And also, I'm dressed, I've got a wool brigade knee length coat on.
• 1:26:37
  And it's a million degrees. And I've got a wig on.
• 1:26:41
  And, and we're running like lunatics. And a few times I think I've fainted just from sort of the heat.
• 1:26:52
  And I remember we were filming Dominica. And I got so dehydrated that at the end of the day, I was back at the hotel and the, the unit medic came to my hotel room with like a drip, like a saline drip.
• 1:27:08
  And I just sat in my hotel room on a drip to kind of rehydrate me, because it was, and then like on the wheel bit, I remember.
• 1:27:16
  They built a wheel, a real one, it wasn't CGI. And, and they, there's a bit, I think we could end up inside the wheel.
• 1:27:27
  I think, yes, I do. And I was, they built a rig, you know, under my costume was like a harness with a high tension wire coming out the back.
• 1:27:37
  And I was, you know, connected to this thing. And then, and we're in the jungle.
• 1:27:43
  And being dragged through the jungle, I mean the spare of all the poor cameraman is also inside the wheel.
• 1:27:50
  And it's like right way up upside down, right way up upside down and sword fighting in a million degrees.
• 1:27:57
  And it was a lot. I mean, you know, I was in my early thirties, but it was still quite, that's, but again, I feel like,
• 1:28:08
  this is one of the things about, you know, the kind of now dominance of CGI is that just because you can do anything now does not mean that you should.
• 1:28:20
  Because I think there's a thing, I know, and this is, I'm not so bad to say anything, particularly perceptive, but like,
• 1:28:27
  for audience members, if, if you are essentially clearly breaking the laws of physics in the name of spectacle,
• 1:28:37
  there's a part of you that dies inside slightly, because you know, it's fake.
• 1:28:43
  It's just, it's not physically possible. And we respected the laws of physics broadly.
• 1:28:49
  And I think that keeps the action much more engaging.
• 1:28:54
  Because, and again, this is, and I think there's an unconscious thing on the part of the audience, but it's a real thing.
• 1:29:01
  And, and so, so yeah, I, it was a tremendous amount of effort on everybody's part.
• 1:29:09
  I can still picture Martin Scherner, the, the, the A-camera operators, who's one of the most, like, you look, look up his CV, it's ridiculous.
• 1:29:20
  And like, there he was with me, also going round and round and round, and I was like, yep, people are, we're all, we're going the extra mile for this stuff.
• 1:29:30
  Yeah. Yeah. And it comes off on screen, as you say, like, that mix of CGI and tacticality, like, you know, you can't really see the join.
• 1:29:36
  As you say, like, like, with, like, with Bill's performance and, and as Davey Jones, you can't really see the join.
• 1:29:41
  So, so going back to the idea of, like, the arc of, of, of Norenson, like, like, say, like, you know, he goes from this, sort of,
• 1:29:46
  up across Commodore to, like, washed up drunk, kind of, you know, and then he goes to Admiral.
• 1:29:50
  I mean, like, like, say, Canada, it's almost the most dramatic arc of, uh, of, uh, end of the characters.
• 1:29:54
  Was that part of the challenge as well, like, performing those three?
• 1:29:57
  Because watching Daveman's chest again, like, I just, I did get the impression that you, despite the physical challenges,
• 1:30:01
  it also must have been a lot of fun playing that complete inversion.
• 1:30:04
  Well, and also because, you know, like, you're in a pirate movie, and I'm the, I'm the only one who's not a fucking pirate.
• 1:30:10
  It was like, and they, they look cool.
• 1:30:12
  And there's me, like, wheeling, being wheeled around, looking like a margin graph floats with, like, 60 pounds of brigade on me,
• 1:30:19
  and a really unflashering white wig.
• 1:30:22
  Uh, and so, you know, being able to kind of, um, you know, move into the more, uh,
• 1:30:29
  Buccaneerie area of the movie was, and also it was a very generous thing of Ted, uh,
• 1:30:36
  Elliott and Terry Rossio, the writers to, to sort of give, like, given that he's the one who has to give up the girl.
• 1:30:44
  And like, at the end of the first one, he's, he loses everything, right?
• 1:30:47
  And so the, I'm, the, the orange is the one that gets the McGuffin in the second one.
• 1:30:53
  Um, is was sort of a nice touch, I thought it was sort of, he got, he got his in some ways.
• 1:31:01
  In the absence of marrying Elizabeth, um, at least he gets, you know, some horrible hearts in a bag, but it's better than nothing.
• 1:31:08
  He doesn't get Elizabeth's heart.
• 1:31:10
  He gets David.
• 1:31:11
  Yeah.
• 1:31:12
  I mean, yeah.
• 1:31:13
  It'll have to do another thing element of that movie.
• 1:31:15
  I mean, I guess it's a slightly more trivial element, maybe, but like one of the things that has kind of,
• 1:31:19
  that people combats a lot and get circulated a lot online and people love is like, is the DVD commentary that you guys did?
• 1:31:24
  You and Keira for the first movie?
• 1:31:26
  Yeah.
• 1:31:27
  Yeah.
• 1:31:28
  Maybe didn't take it very seriously.
• 1:31:31
  Um, um, but Keira's, you know, here is sneaky funny.
• 1:31:38
  And, and, you know, we, we'd spend a lot of time with each other.
• 1:31:43
  We were very relaxed around each other.
• 1:31:45
  And we, you know, like, it was like, and also the tone, the comic tone of the film is very un-serious, right?
• 1:31:54
  And so it was like, well, why, like, gore can talk, um, knowledgeably about the technical requirements of this.
• 1:32:03
  We might as well just take the piss.
• 1:32:05
  Um, so I guess we did.
• 1:32:08
  Yeah.
• 1:32:09
  You're not the first, but I've never heard it.
• 1:32:11
  I do remember that we didn't take it very seriously.
• 1:32:14
  That comes across when you listen to it, because I say it's one of these things that gets shit.
• 1:32:18
  That gets, you know, shared online and people really love it and like joke a laugh about it.
• 1:32:21
  But there's also stuff in it like, you know, when you're doing, when you're being anointed is Commodore, right?
• 1:32:25
  And you have to do that incredible sort of the swish of the sword and all that stuff.
• 1:32:30
  Weeks, weeks learning that, right?
• 1:32:32
  And in my embarrassing, and it was like, I mean, the, you know, one of the things that was quite, I mean, in some ways,
• 1:32:40
  I was quite glad if this sort of baptism of fire of Ripley in terms of like big scale, very, but, you know, in the first movie, especially,
• 1:32:51
  every time I say something, 400 people do what I just said.
• 1:32:57
  And that often involves like not one, but two ships.
• 1:33:02
  And, you know, like, if I don't hit my mark and I, if I fuck it up, like it's going to take an hour to reset this.
• 1:33:11
  So it was quite high pressure.
• 1:33:14
  It was very high pressure.
• 1:33:16
  And, and so, yes, I, that, that side of things in that day, that, when he gets promoted or whatever it is.
• 1:33:24
  And I remember, well, yeah, there is, I have to whip it around the back of my head or something.
• 1:33:28
  And, you know, again, there's like 600 people watching and you're like, I'm just going to drop this now.
• 1:33:34
  It's going to be so rubbish.
• 1:33:37
  So there were quite a lot of those moments, because he's a very public, public figure.
• 1:33:43
  So that added, you know, that added to the pressure.
• 1:33:45
  So I was quite happy to be a sort of homeless tramp in the second one, because no one's doing what I say in the second one clearly.
• 1:33:55
  So it was a bit of a holiday, really, from all that.
• 1:33:58
  Yeah, but then like, what's, what's hilarious is that like, yeah, you've, you've perfected this, you know, this, this, this any of the sort.
• 1:34:03
  I mean, you even talk about it in the commentary, you and Kira laughing about it, like, you know, you've done all this work and, you know, prep on it.
• 1:34:08
  But then it's just in the background of, of, of, of Kira shot.
• 1:34:11
  Yeah.
• 1:34:12
  And it's just like, what the hell?
• 1:34:13
  Yeah.
• 1:34:14
  Well, I should, there's so many other things to look at in that movie.
• 1:34:20
  And I remember, Jeffrey Rush told me this thing that when he was doing the first one that he would always,
• 1:34:30
  when they were a block of scene, he'd always try and get over to camera left.
• 1:34:37
  So his right in the scene, because he was like, he went, listen, I've got a monkey on my left shoulder.
• 1:34:45
  And then I've got Kira Knightley.
• 1:34:48
  He's like, no one's looking at me.
• 1:34:50
  And, and, and Western audiences tend to look at a screen like you read, you sort of look at it from left to right.
• 1:34:57
  And he's like, if I don't get camera right, it's my might as well not be in this film, which I thought was quite perceptive of him.
• 1:35:04
  And yes, of course, I spent all these weeks trying to do this thing.
• 1:35:07
  And then of course, I'm just slightly blurry whilst the camera, you know, feasts on young Kira Knightley's, you know, youthful, gloriousness.
• 1:35:18
  But you go back and look at that film as you say, like, you know, Jeffrey, as, I've heard that story about Jeffrey,
• 1:35:22
  Jeffrey says before that, positioning himself on that to screen.
• 1:35:24
  And you see it and every other shot he's in, everything.
• 1:35:27
  And then he really thought about it.
• 1:35:30
  He was like, the monkey alone, I'm on a hiding to nothing.
• 1:35:34
  So that's why he would do it.
• 1:35:36
  And it's very smart.
• 1:35:37
  It's very good technical, technical advice, really.
• 1:35:41
  And he's such a brilliant actor.
• 1:35:42
  I mean, he's fantastic in that film.
• 1:35:43
  I mean, I know you guys, you guys didn't have too many scenes together.
• 1:35:46
  But do you remember like working with Jeffrey, like, you know, on that film at all?
• 1:35:49
  I mean, I, I don't know if I had any scenes with him.
• 1:35:53
  Did I?
• 1:35:54
  I'm not sure I did.
• 1:35:56
  I, you know, but what I did enjoy was the fact that he was doing, because he's such, you know, he's a creature of the theatre primarily.
• 1:36:07
  And so he can, he can elevate a performance in a way that that kind of movie requires.
• 1:36:14
  Like it's like doing sort of, you know, some subtleties required in all movie acting.
• 1:36:21
  But like something like Pirates, it's like, you know, like, you've got to rise to the material.
• 1:36:26
  And Jeffrey had such a, he's such a student of the history of the movies.
• 1:36:31
  And he, he was sort of, you know, it's a sort of collection of all the best bits of, I think, of other great pirates on screams sort of thing.
• 1:36:45
  And like, no one is like Jeffrey and like his commitment to the bits was because Johnny's doing this thing that is so specifically Johnny.
• 1:36:56
  And so specifically Captain Jack, like Captain Jack is a one of one character.
• 1:37:04
  But Barbosa is like, that's the part that we think we know if we think about, right?
• 1:37:10
  And so I would watch him work and enjoy the fact that he was so, so detailed about honoring the fans of horror movie.
• 1:37:21
  And you need that. You need, you know, like he's the antagonist in this thing.
• 1:37:26
  And he needs to, you know, he needs to fill the space and which he does with some alacracy.
• 1:37:33
  On, on frame left, yes.
• 1:37:36
  Always, always.
• 1:37:38
  And talking about like, like you say, we were talking area about how, like, you know, people will come up to you and recognize you.
• 1:37:42
  And like, yeah, and talk about how much they love this film or this program or this role that you've done.
• 1:37:46
  With pirates, like that is a series that is really, you know, people still, it's still beloved.
• 1:37:51
  It's so beloved by so many people are like, you know, what's your theory on that?
• 1:37:54
  And like, why do you think people have sort of taken them so much into their hearts?
• 1:37:57
  I mean, it's hard to pin it down to one thing. There are lots of things.
• 1:37:59
  I think it's simple. I've sort of touched on this part. It's very simple.
• 1:38:03
  It is very rare for there to be a genuinely family-friendly movie that even adults don't mind watching repeatedly with that.
• 1:38:15
  When children decide they like a movie, they will watch it a lot.
• 1:38:20
  And I think the fact that, you know, young and old alike are catered to in a way that makes it enjoyable.
• 1:38:33
  So it became, you know, part of family, you know, individual family cultures.
• 1:38:40
  It's like, you know, people would watch it Christmas together or whatever it is, you know.
• 1:38:45
  And so it becomes part of, you know, that's what that's why we do it.
• 1:38:50
  You know, it's so people take these things into their hearts and their memories and then it becomes part of the texture of their own family lives.
• 1:38:59
  And, you know, like really nailing a proper four-quadrant family movie is, you know, it's the holy grail of like popcorn filmmaking.
• 1:39:12
  And it's very rarely achieved. Generally speaking, they tend to, you know, I think the anim, I think the anim, you know, the kind of the Pixar and the lumination of it all.
• 1:39:22
  Like they can have it both ways because they can control the tone very specifically because they've got control of all the dials.
• 1:39:31
  But this is live action. So it's like a lot of this is being entrusted to us.
• 1:39:37
  And that's a slightly different thing. And so I guess that's kind of why it has legs.
• 1:39:44
  Because it's quite difficult to find things that all the family were prepared to watch.
• 1:39:49
  I mean, that's always been the case. Like even a kind of, you know, sour face, 16-year-olds who want to spend no time with their family whatsoever will be like, OK, all right.
• 1:40:02
  Well, what's the third one? You know, whatever, you know, because they've got this childhood memory and they do deep down, even though they're too cool for school, they even they still like it.
• 1:40:12
  Going back to your performance, something that just occurred to me is the fact that because I've heard you talk for about like a set of having a sense of imposter syndrome sometimes when it comes to performing, which I think is probably I think is very common.
• 1:40:22
  For all actors and just people. But then as you say, you're playing this character who when you say something 400 people do it.
• 1:40:29
  And like, and you're, you're literally be Commodore and like, you're, you're in charge of what's going on. I can only imagine what it must be like on set. Maybe like the first day you had to do that.
• 1:40:39
  Yeah, the first few days were intimidating. But, you know, by that stage, I had been doing it for not quite, you know, not a decade, but nearly a decade.
• 1:40:54
  And I had had quite a lot of reps at that point and not on that scale. But, but enough that I was able to enjoy it in a way that perhaps earlier in my career, I was just holding on to dear life.
• 1:41:11
  But also, you know, Johnny's such a uniquely just one of one screen presence. And he's like, he's so open and just sort of playful.
• 1:41:26
  And, and realizing that we could go anywhere it like in like, like, and we did like, you know, like a lot of the time we, we veered wildly off the scripts because off he would go and I'll be like, oh, I guess we're going to do this now.
• 1:41:43
  And, and so it was, I think I've probably felt, I mean, imposter syndrome never quite goes away unless you're some kind of pathological narcissist.
• 1:41:57
  But, I remember being a bit more, a bit more comfortable on those ones. And I'm glad I was because I was able to take it in. And I did a lot of like, you know, I was constantly like, remember this, remember that.
• 1:42:13
  You'll never see that again. And it happened all the time. I found a, a folder of photographs I was given by the publicity team for the first one.
• 1:42:24
  You know, it's amazing. I've not, I hadn't opened it for 20 years. We can, we moved out quite recently and I was like, what is this? And I was like, oh, my son happened to be in the room.
• 1:42:35
  And I came across this picture of the, I think there's a scene in the first one where I'm in a little sort of state boat with a lot of Marines and where I don't know where I said a cave or something.
• 1:42:45
  And we filmed that on the open ocean in the middle of the night. And what you can't see is what I'm looking at, which is an armada of, you know, the lights have to have a boat.
• 1:43:02
  The, the director has to have a boat. You want to have a makeup check. They have to come over in a little boat and you're bobbing about in the middle of the ocean.
• 1:43:13
  And you're, and you're like, what the fuck is this? This is insane. And so, but I was, I was, I was, I was very soon after the experience began.
• 1:43:26
  I was like, just remember to remember all this stuff because you won't do this again, not like this. And so I guess I have remembered some of it.
• 1:43:36
  Yeah. Well, I mean, it's great to hear that, you know, obviously, like, as you say, those things, those movies don't come along every day. And they don't, and I can say they don't really get made like that.
• 1:43:45
  And it was only 20 years ago, you know, that, you know, people had to get on a plane and fly.
• 1:43:49
  The armies of people, like across the world, like, you know, you think about like Kubrick doing Spartacus or something, like, you know, you had to go and over there and do it. It was an epic, you know, yeah, it was an undertaking.
• 1:43:59
  So I guess Christopher Nolan is, I guess it's still doing it with the audience. He's the only one who's allowed to, which is the only one who's allowed to. That's exactly right.
• 1:44:08
  Yeah, because it's Chris Nolan. Well, he never doesn't deliver.
• 1:44:12
  Exactly. I mean, he's got, he's got the cashier, you know, he's one of the food director's whose name has the cashier.
• 1:44:17
  But it's interesting though, because like, you know, talking about action, I guess, because of all that I'm quite keen to ask about. And it's a smaller one, but it's one that is still so eye catching.
• 1:44:24
  I remember sitting in the cinema and going, hello, like this, you know, but you popped up with his Kingsman, of course, Kingsman.
• 1:44:30
  Like, how did that come about? How did that film come about?
• 1:44:32
  So I had worked for one of Matthew Vaughn's producers on something, and I can't remember what it was before. So I was kind of vaguely, I guess, maybe on Matthew's radar.
• 1:44:45
  And I was doing a TV show in New York at the time, and I got sent the scripts, and it was an awful straight offer, which isn't always the case.
• 1:44:53
  And I saw it really, and I was like, fucking hell, I'm the lead in, oh no, I'm dead.
• 1:44:58
  And, but then I was like, but you know what, this is kind of fun, because in some ways it sets up the comic tone of the movie.
• 1:45:10
  Like, you think this is the guy.
• 1:45:12
  And, you know, again, big action sequence. I mean, I did quite a lot of it.
• 1:45:22
  My stunt double wasn't an Olympic gymnast, because there are certain physical things where I forget it.
• 1:45:30
  But when I first, the first of my story was the premier, and at that point, speaking of CGI, face replacement technology had got so good.
• 1:45:44
  But as I'm watching it, I was like, I don't remember doing that. And then I was like, oh no, I didn't do that.
• 1:45:49
  That was the Olympic gymnast. But it was when we were prepping for the movie, we were filming at the big Warner studio at Leaston.
• 1:46:01
  And it was a huge, great hanger. And at one end was Colin rehearsing his epic fight in that church.
• 1:46:12
  He goes on for about an hour and a half. And I was down the other end doing my fight sequence.
• 1:46:19
  And I kept about once every half an hour, we sort of meet in the middle.
• 1:46:22
  These two sort of slightly middle-aged men who had no business being an action film.
• 1:46:27
  What are we doing here? Like, this isn't what we do. We do nice suits and just not bumping into stuff.
• 1:46:35
  And then we would go back. And it was fun. It was a really, it was a very, and you know, doesn't shoot that stuff.
• 1:46:45
  Even though it's a quick bite, you know, it took a couple of weeks to shoot it.
• 1:46:49
  I mean, it was not a small undertaking. And I, you know, I don't love like massive amounts of violence and things.
• 1:47:01
  But what's so interesting about that movie is there's so much violence, but they ride this cartoonish line where it's, there's no real blood.
• 1:47:13
  It's not, it's, it's as you completely unrealistic, which allows them to kind of push the envelope because it is all very tiny and cheek.
• 1:47:22
  But, you know, you arguably, you know, the whole point of that lasal sequence is to set the kind of action parameters and sort of violence parameters for the movie as it's now going to unspool.
• 1:47:40
  It was, it definitely felt so worth doing because I, you know, I mean, you know, Colin and Sam and all these people, like it was insane.
• 1:47:48
  And Taran in his first movie, but like, what a start for Taran that was.
• 1:47:53
  It's such a beautiful little scene as well, because the way it's structured and the fact that you think when you first see it, oh, it's the hero introduction, but actually it's the villain introduction.
• 1:48:01
  And then there's a series of fake outs, you know, like you think it's this and then they're like, nah, and that's kind of, I think what, you know, help.
• 1:48:09
  You know, help propel it into being a franchise in his own right.
• 1:48:13
  Also, let's remember I'm rescuing Luke Skywalker.
• 1:48:19
  Just to be clear.
• 1:48:22
  That was another moment where I was like, don't forget this Jack.
• 1:48:25
  Yeah, I was going to say was that a pinch me moment as well.
• 1:48:27
  Yeah, I'm not completely.
• 1:48:29
  Are you kidding?
• 1:48:30
  I was five years old in 1977.
• 1:48:34
  Like Mark Hamill looms very large in my psyche.
• 1:48:39
  Of course he does.
• 1:48:40
  He's Luke fucking Skywalker.
• 1:48:42
  And so yes, they're what I was like, yes, absolutely.
• 1:48:46
  And then, and then once I'm dead, of course, I'm going to forget the name of Sam's character in Pulp Viction.
• 1:48:53
  Jules.
• 1:48:54
  Jules, and then Jules is stepping over my dead body.
• 1:48:57
  I was like, my work here is done.
• 1:48:59
  I think I think I'm pretty happy about how this all played out.
• 1:49:04
  So as you guys just be like, say like there's an interesting structure scene.
• 1:49:07
  It's a scene coming in free acts.
• 1:49:08
  And then, and in between all that, you guys like you and Mark or Sam, like, you know,
• 1:49:12
  you've got a lot of players in there.
• 1:49:13
  Like you guys.
• 1:49:14
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:49:15
  I mean, let's sound because Sam doesn't come in until the very end.
• 1:49:19
  And Sam is a lovely guy, but he's quite self-contained.
• 1:49:23
  And I wasn't about to be like, hey, but we, you know, we met and we hung out a bit.
• 1:49:29
  But I spent a lot of time with Mark.
• 1:49:31
  And he was just before he was about to be Luke Skywalker again.
• 1:49:35
  And so I had so many questions that was insane.
• 1:49:40
  Almost none of which he was able to answer.
• 1:49:43
  But again, I was like, I'm having a conversation with Luke Skywalker about his return.
• 1:49:49
  This is incredible.
• 1:49:52
  So I was nerding out quite badly.
• 1:49:55
  How could I not?
• 1:49:57
  Absolutely.
• 1:49:58
  So sweet to hear.
• 1:49:59
  And like you say, it is a shame because obviously you rock up and then that you've obviously got
• 1:50:02
  kitted out in the bespoke tweed.
• 1:50:04
  Is it several row, the several rows suit?
• 1:50:06
  That's done.
• 1:50:07
  And it came from a place called Cordings, which is a sort of
• 1:50:11
  country gentleman's hunting wear shop on Piccadilly, which I believe is rather
• 1:50:18
  probably owned now by Eric Clapton.
• 1:50:22
  And they had such specific, such as specific because of course, you know,
• 1:50:28
  the King's been thing and the tailors and all of that stuff.
• 1:50:31
  So the look was, you know, paramount.
• 1:50:35
  And because I'm really the first, I mean, I'm, there's a sort of scene at the beginning.
• 1:50:41
  He's been calling him Mark briefly.
• 1:50:44
  But we're in kind of, actually, we're in tailored boiler suits that are called
• 1:50:49
  siren suits, which is what Churchill used to wear during World War II during the
• 1:50:54
  blitz.
• 1:50:55
  And it might basically imagine like a, like a pen striped suit,
• 1:50:59
  but re-imagined as a boiler suit.
• 1:51:02
  And look, you look it up.
• 1:51:04
  There's pictures of Churchill and these things during the war.
• 1:51:08
  They are the most difficult thing to tailor on earth.
• 1:51:11
  And there was literally one woman who worked on Savile Row,
• 1:51:16
  who was actually capable of tailoring these things.
• 1:51:19
  And they made, they made them from scratch because obviously they don't exist.
• 1:51:22
  And I had, I had like 12 fittings because the architecture of those things,
• 1:51:28
  it's much harder than a jacket and trousers.
• 1:51:31
  It's a sort of, it's a sort of miracle of tailoring.
• 1:51:35
  And then of course, in the scene, it's quite dark and you can't really see that
• 1:51:39
  what we're wearing.
• 1:51:40
  So really the first time you see me in the, in the kind of, you know,
• 1:51:45
  whatever it's going to green, check suit, that's the first time they're like,
• 1:51:49
  this is the visual vibe.
• 1:51:51
  And so though, I think there was a lot of careful consideration for what
• 1:51:57
  exactly I would be wearing.
• 1:51:58
  And so that was, that was what happened there.
• 1:52:00
  And as I say, it's just, even though it's a brief, you know,
• 1:52:03
  it's still such a wonderful eye catching scene.
• 1:52:07
  And, but, but it's interesting, is that like, you know,
• 1:52:09
  because you've worked with so many amazing people, I mean,
• 1:52:11
  some of the people just in that scene alone, obviously, like Mark Hamill and Sam Jackson
• 1:52:14
  and then obviously Matthew Vaughan directing it.
• 1:52:16
  Is there anyone out there right now that's working, who you haven't worked with before,
• 1:52:19
  who you would love to?
• 1:52:20
  I mean, is there anyone out there that you're a particular fan of?
• 1:52:22
  Well, you touched on him.
• 1:52:23
  I mean, like Christopher Nolan is, I mean,
• 1:52:27
  and he's, I auditioned for him once in L.A.
• 1:52:32
  I think one of the dark night movies obviously didn't get it.
• 1:52:35
  But I just watch, I've just watched his body of work grow into this.
• 1:52:43
  And I'm just, I had a conversation with someone like a couple of days ago.
• 1:52:49
  Like I don't rewatch films much.
• 1:52:52
  Like I do, of course I do.
• 1:52:54
  But the kind of sweet of movies that I do revisit quite often,
• 1:53:00
  is pre-limited.
• 1:53:02
  But I have watched Interstellar in, I mean,
• 1:53:07
  double figures, which is way, way out there.
• 1:53:11
  I don't really like science fiction, apart, you know, like, as an adult.
• 1:53:15
  Like, I mean, I, of course, I've seen all the Star Wars movies,
• 1:53:18
  but like, it's not my go-to genre.
• 1:53:21
  But it's such, also as a parent,
• 1:53:26
  like Interstellar just is such a gut-punching movie.
• 1:53:31
  And the idea of missing all of your child growing up.
• 1:53:36
  And then the, just the sort of the formal brilliance of, like,
• 1:53:40
  landing at this, you know, this story that's cross space and fucking time
• 1:53:46
  in ways that it's hard to really wrap your head around.
• 1:53:50
  And then the end point is he's literally at the deathbed of his own daughter.
• 1:53:55
  And you're just like, and I'm just like a Dunkirk,
• 1:54:02
  one of the great formal achievements in the history of cinema.
• 1:54:08
  Like, with a score that has no melody, it's all rhythm.
• 1:54:13
  Just every, like, he's just, he's unbelievable.
• 1:54:17
  And he's so kind of, you know, he's so unknowable in a way,
• 1:54:23
  which I, which I love about him in this,
• 1:54:27
  the era of the massive overshare.
• 1:54:30
  We don't really know much about Christopher Nolan.
• 1:54:33
  But he did, there's a book called The Nolan Variations,
• 1:54:36
  which I think Tom Shone, a good, like a really good film critic.
• 1:54:41
  And Nolan sat for, like, 10 interviews.
• 1:54:45
  And it's so revealing.
• 1:54:47
  And he's just such an incredible artist.
• 1:54:52
  And I love how he's expended his cultural capital.
• 1:54:57
  Like, you know, like, he makes these Batman movies.
• 1:55:00
  And then he's like, and now I can do whatever I want.
• 1:55:03
  Watch this.
• 1:55:05
  And you're just like, oh my god, like, there's just the formal brilliance of them.
• 1:55:11
  The performances he gets out of people.
• 1:55:14
  Friends of mine of, you know, my friend James Darcy's was in Dunkirk.
• 1:55:21
  You know, Ken Branagh, I work with, he was in Dunkirk and Tenet.
• 1:55:27
  I still don't quite understand Tenet, but I love that.
• 1:55:30
  Like, I don't think I'm in it, you know, like,
• 1:55:33
  I'm not the cleverest person in the world, but I've seen a lot of movies.
• 1:55:36
  And I was a bit like, wait, what?
• 1:55:38
  But I love that.
• 1:55:40
  I remember when, before Tenet came out, I took my son to see
• 1:55:46
  one, maybe the Force Awakens.
• 1:55:49
  Like, maybe the first of the new lot.
• 1:55:54
  And it was on the, like, I'm a big IMAX person.
• 1:55:58
  Like, if I can IMAX it, that's what I'm going to do.
• 1:56:01
  Like, one battle after another in IMAX.
• 1:56:04
  Good lord.
• 1:56:06
  Yeah.
• 1:56:07
  I mean, PTA is also in that list.
• 1:56:09
  Like, I'm never going to, I'm never going to be in it.
• 1:56:12
  Like, I missed my, the only thing I mean,
• 1:56:14
  somehow I could have somehow forced myself into Phantom Fred.
• 1:56:17
  I'm not quite sure how.
• 1:56:19
  But no, no, no, but like, like, he's, he's generally his,
• 1:56:22
  his, you know, his,
• 1:56:25
  imaginative world does not include actors that look and sound like me.
• 1:56:29
  No.
• 1:56:30
  But, you were totally fitted into Phantom Fred.
• 1:56:33
  Absolutely.
• 1:56:34
  Absolutely.
• 1:56:35
  Absolutely.
• 1:56:36
  There's spare a moment.
• 1:56:37
  Think about that.
• 1:56:38
  Paul Thomas Anderson grew up in the San Fernando Valley.
• 1:56:42
  He wrote Phantom Fred.
• 1:56:45
  Think about it for a second.
• 1:56:47
  Yeah.
• 1:56:48
  About the imaginative leap that's required.
• 1:56:51
  And, and I love his, even at the Oscars the other night.
• 1:56:56
  Like, he still has, because he was, you know,
• 1:57:00
  he was this kind of wonderkins.
• 1:57:02
  When I first went to Hollywood, I went off the back of Ripley.
• 1:57:07
  And the guy that cast Ripley was sort of very sweetly,
• 1:57:12
  sort of introduced me to agents and help kind of get my,
• 1:57:16
  my footing in, in LA when I, when I got there.
• 1:57:20
  And he took me to a couple of events as well, including the world premiere
• 1:57:24
  of Magnolia.
• 1:57:25
  Yeah.
• 1:57:26
  Jesus Christ.
• 1:57:27
  He took me to the world premiere of Magnolia.
• 1:57:31
  And the following week, the world premiere of Eyes Wide Shots.
• 1:57:36
  Thank you and good night.
• 1:57:38
  Tom Cruise is double whammy, hopefully.
• 1:57:41
  Like Magnolia, arguably the greatest cruise performance there is.
• 1:57:45
  And I remember sitting in, but I'm trying to bring this full circle about PCA.
• 1:57:50
  Like, he was what, 29 when he made that film.
• 1:57:54
  Yeah.
• 1:57:55
  And, yeah.
• 1:57:56
  And, but he still has this kind of completely justified kind of cockiness.
• 1:58:02
  Because he knows how good he is.
• 1:58:04
  Yeah.
• 1:58:05
  Because he's arguably, I'm not in arguably one of the greatest American directors of all time.
• 1:58:11
  Of his generation, I think.
• 1:58:12
  Of his generation, I think he's the one.
• 1:58:14
  I think he's, he's the one.
• 1:58:15
  He's the one.
• 1:58:16
  He's the one.
• 1:58:17
  He's the one.
• 1:58:18
  He's the one.
• 1:58:19
  100% the one.
• 1:58:20
  And the Oscar's the other night when he's like, wow, you really make a guy work for one of these.
• 1:58:22
  And I was like, that's the pool top of a sandwich that I love.
• 1:58:25
  Like, you couldn't, you couldn't help it.
• 1:58:28
  And I just, I was like, yeah, damn right.
• 1:58:31
  It's the travesty that it's taken this long.
• 1:58:35
  And in a way, I, you know, I guess it all works out in the end.
• 1:58:39
  Probably, well, I mean, it's obviously his most mature work one battle.
• 1:58:43
  But what a piece of, oh my god.
• 1:58:46
  Oh my god.
• 1:58:47
  Oh my god.
• 1:58:48
  I mean, I mean, tricky year because it's like, you know, equally.
• 1:58:53
  Everything about sinners is spectacular animal film.
• 1:58:58
  But I also feel like Ryan Kudler is going to be winning a few Oscars as a director.
• 1:59:02
  I mean, like, he's got a long way to go.
• 1:59:05
  So probably honors even like so hard to like.
• 1:59:08
  And actually kind of it almost felt like the Oscars kind of got it right in a way that they often don't.
• 1:59:14
  They, you know, they, if something starts to get momentum, then it wins everything.
• 1:59:18
  And I thought in such a tough year with two such different unbelievably iconoclastic movies that they managed to kind of go.
• 1:59:27
  Yeah, honors even.
• 1:59:29
  So I thought it was cool.
• 1:59:31
  So yeah, I mean, PCA for sure, no one for sure.
• 1:59:35
  I mean, you know, if you're listening.
• 1:59:39
  Let's make it happen.
• 1:59:40
  Let's make it happen.
• 1:59:41
  I mean, and as you say, like, yeah, we'll give the best picture Oscar to a Thomas pension.
• 1:59:45
  An adaptation essentially, like, you know, pension.
• 1:59:48
  And as you say, it's like Scorsese, anyone for departed.
• 1:59:50
  It's like, is that you really make a guy work for one of those?
• 1:59:53
  Because at that point, good fellows, Rage and Bulls, tax driver, kick comedy.
• 1:59:57
  I watched that Scorsese documentary on Apple on Apple.
• 2:00:01
  And you're like, it's unreal that it took that long to be like Marty.
• 2:00:07
  We're so sorry.
• 2:00:08
  But we forgot not before time.
• 2:00:12
  But I really loved that he couldn't help himself and be like, yeah, I mean,
• 2:00:18
  you could have done this a while ago, but that's okay.
• 2:00:22
  Well, I mean, you, because obviously you worked with Hoffman.
• 2:00:25
  It seemed like Hoffman on Ripley.
• 2:00:27
  Why?
• 2:00:28
  Twice.
• 2:00:29
  Yeah.
• 2:00:30
  And then obviously he was one of PCAs.
• 2:00:31
  Oh, my God.
• 2:00:32
  Go to guys.
• 2:00:33
  I mean, did you ever talk about that with him?
• 2:00:34
  Because I think Boogie Knights would have been under his belt when you did Ripley.
• 2:00:36
  So did you ever talk about that at all?
• 2:00:38
  We did.
• 2:00:39
  I was very in awe of him.
• 2:00:40
  He was the sweetest God.
• 2:00:43
  He was just a beautiful human being.
• 2:00:45
  Oh, my God.
• 2:00:47
  And we hung out a lot on Ripley because we were sort of equally not used.
• 2:00:53
  You know, like we were, you know, like we were supporting characters.
• 2:00:56
  So we hung out a lot.
• 2:00:58
  And I, and he hadn't started to lay down the market yet.
• 2:01:03
  Although I want to say this, Phil nerds, if you want to see the,
• 2:01:09
  from my money, the, um, the canary in the coal mine for his future.
• 2:01:16
  Total brilliance is in center of a woman.
• 2:01:20
  He's young.
• 2:01:22
  And there's a scene in that where the, like, it feels like one of the kind of naughty cool kids at that school.
• 2:01:29
  And they've done this prank on the headmaster and there's the paint and the balloon has gone on the car.
• 2:01:34
  And, you know, and the headmaster is trying to find out who, like, who did it?
• 2:01:39
  And he gets Chris O'Donnell's culture and he doesn't wrap them out.
• 2:01:42
  And he comes out and Phil's waiting for him.
• 2:01:45
  And it's a walk and talk down a pathway.
• 2:01:49
  And at one point, once it becomes clear that O'Donnell hasn't read them out.
• 2:01:54
  They stop.
• 2:01:56
  And Phil kind of grabs him and you're like, he's going to kiss him.
• 2:02:00
  Like, not like, like, really kiss him.
• 2:02:03
  And it's this incredibly charged.
• 2:02:07
  You're like, I don't know what's really happening right now.
• 2:02:10
  But oh my god.
• 2:02:12
  And like, and to me, like, that's the, like, the sort of, um,
• 2:02:16
  like the green shoots of one of the greatest film careers ever.
• 2:02:22
  Like, you know, I mean, him and just sitting in that car in Boogie Night says,
• 2:02:26
  Oh, just ridiculous.
• 2:02:28
  Ridiculous.
• 2:02:30
  But heartbreaking.
• 2:02:32
  But what you mentioned instead of a woman like, because I think that I want to say that was what PTA first saw.
• 2:02:37
  Yeah, I'm sure.
• 2:02:38
  But he saw him in that and was like, he's for me and I'm for him.
• 2:02:41
  That's, I need to work with that guy.
• 2:02:43
  And then you get hard A Boogie Night's all the master.
• 2:02:46
  I saw some, some behind the scenes footage on YouTube that I'd never seen before.
• 2:02:51
  Because I'm often dig around for PTA stuff.
• 2:02:54
  And, um, and it was just the two of them dicking about on the set of Magnolia.
• 2:02:59
  And if you think about the emotional intensity of like, of like Phil's storyline with dying Jason robots and Tom Cruz coming in and that happening.
• 2:03:09
  And they're just dicking about.
• 2:03:11
  And I'm like, those are my guys.
• 2:03:14
  So yeah.
• 2:03:15
  There's a, there's a fantastic compilation on YouTube.
• 2:03:18
  I think you may be this is what you're referring to.
• 2:03:20
  But like, it's like best of PTA in Hoffman, like, you know, brothers, brothers and masters.
• 2:03:24
  Yeah.
• 2:03:25
  It's like 20 minutes of this then.
• 2:03:27
  Oh, vibing.
• 2:03:28
  It's great.
• 2:03:29
  I mean, let's just talk about the master for a second.
• 2:03:31
  So when I first saw that film, um, like bear in mind, I know how the sausage is made, right?
• 2:03:38
  And what Joaquin was doing in that movie, I was like, I was genuinely worried about him.
• 2:03:44
  Like I was like, it's certainly like it's so raw and exposed and just vulnerable beyond imagining.
• 2:03:52
  But it wouldn't hold up unless Phil, like plays bass in all that stuff.
• 2:04:00
  And he's still so powerful.
• 2:04:03
  But like it's so generous and smart and like he knows how to keep the balance in the scene.
• 2:04:12
  Because obviously, um, what was he called?
• 2:04:15
  Freddie, Quenelle, Freddie something.
• 2:04:18
  Freddie, Freddie Quill, yeah.
• 2:04:19
  Freddie Quill, that's right.
• 2:04:20
  Like, like he stops Joaquin's extraordinary unpredictable wildness from kind of unbalancing everything.
• 2:04:29
  And it's just, and it's just, it's God.
• 2:04:32
  I like, I walked out of that movie just like, I mean, I call myself an actor.
• 2:04:37
  But those motherfuckers, I'm like, I don't know, like, I guess, but like that is a different thing.
• 2:04:45
  Um, yeah.
• 2:04:46
  I could talk about a PTA film for another two hours.
• 2:04:49
  Same, same.
• 2:04:50
  I mean, I remember when PTA was interviewed about that.
• 2:04:52
  Like, I think, I think Bill Simmons asked him on his podcast.
• 2:04:54
  Like, what's the greatest thing you've ever seen an act to do?
• 2:04:56
  And after chewing it over for a couple of minutes, it was like Phil Hoffman in the master.
• 2:05:00
  And, and Joaquin in the master, like those two together.
• 2:05:04
  Completely.
• 2:05:05
  And also like, like this, but this is probably quite a good, uh, high point to wrap things up.
• 2:05:11
  Because I like nothing more than talking about someone else other than me, uh,
• 2:05:16
  given a good impression of someone who doesn't mind.
• 2:05:19
  Um, uh, quite recently, I was, uh, sure, I wasn't very well.
• 2:05:25
  I was home for like a week or 10 days.
• 2:05:27
  And we had a family member staying with us, who's in there like late 20s.
• 2:05:32
  And she hadn't seen a lot of PTA stuff.
• 2:05:35
  And I was like, oh, allow me.
• 2:05:38
  And back to back, like two nights, one night after another, we did,
• 2:05:44
  there will be blood, found some thread, double.
• 2:05:47
  And you're like, this guy gets the very best work out of the greatest living actors,
• 2:05:55
  time after time after time.
• 2:05:59
  And I don't know how he does that, but he does.
• 2:06:02
  And, and I hadn't seen there will be blood since it had come out.
• 2:06:06
  And I like, again, it's very different when you're a parent.
• 2:06:10
  I wasn't a parent with like this, like it hits completely differently.
• 2:06:14
  But as a, but as a pair, you're like, how is this even possible that the same person
• 2:06:21
  can make these two films with the same actor giving these two total poles apart?
• 2:06:29
  Like it's just mental.
• 2:06:32
  Um, and I just, my admiration for him.
• 2:06:35
  I mean, clearly, I like.
• 2:06:37
  And I was so happy for him that he went, walked out of there with not one but three Oscars.
• 2:06:41
  Quite right.
• 2:06:42
  Quite rightly.
• 2:06:43
  Quite rightly indeed.
• 2:06:44
  I've got to say, Jack, before we wrap up, I can't ask one very,
• 2:06:47
  of course, last question, because I just, I have to ask, because you mentioned it,
• 2:06:51
  like you say, because we talk about PTA in Nolan, like you say you say you auditioned
• 2:06:54
  for one of the, the Dark Knight movies.
• 2:06:56
  I did.
• 2:06:57
  Is that right?
• 2:06:58
  Yeah.
• 2:06:59
  I've got to, I've got to ask like, A, what was that like and B, who did you audition for?
• 2:07:02
  I, uh, can you, can you set reveal or is it?
• 2:07:05
  No, I can't.
• 2:07:06
  I'm sure I can.
• 2:07:07
  I auditioned for a part that was played by an actor.
• 2:07:09
  I then worked with subsequently a wonderful British article, Burn Gorman, which is arguably
• 2:07:13
  the best name for an actor ever.
• 2:07:15
  Yeah.
• 2:07:16
  Yeah.
• 2:07:17
  Um, and Burn got it.
• 2:07:19
  And, um, maybe he was in the dark.
• 2:07:21
  No, it was not like rises.
• 2:07:23
  Yes.
• 2:07:24
  And this is the thing about Nolan, given we're now in the era of self tapes and all of that.
• 2:07:31
  Nolan was in the room, because of course he was in the room, because that's how he rolls.
• 2:07:36
  And, and it was like, and you know, he was, there was a bunch of us coming through in rotation.
• 2:07:42
  He didn't have to do that.
• 2:07:43
  He could have just watched the tapes.
• 2:07:45
  But he needs to like, he's a, he's a purist.
• 2:07:50
  You know, he understands it's about doing the thing in the room and sharing the same air molecules.
• 2:07:57
  And like, he needs to see it like with his own eyes.
• 2:08:01
  And like, and it was just, and, and he was a very unobtrusive presence.
• 2:08:05
  I was like, fucking, Christopher Nolan's over there.
• 2:08:08
  Um, but, but I was very struck by the fact that that's actually quite unusual in this day.
• 2:08:14
  Which is awful, but true.
• 2:08:16
  Um, uh, and you know, he doesn't like, he doesn't have any phones on his sex.
• 2:08:21
  They're barely any chairs.
• 2:08:23
  Like, you can't, like, it's like we're here to do the work.
• 2:08:26
  And we're gonna, and I don't think, I don't think Nolan's ever had a cell phone.
• 2:08:30
  Uh, ever.
• 2:08:31
  Of course he hasn't.
• 2:08:33
  I think he has like a, like a burner phone, I've seen.
• 2:08:36
  Very sort of like, yes.
• 2:08:37
  But you, whatever burn Gorma's character was, that was it.
• 2:08:40
  And I clearly didn't get it and burned an amazing job.
• 2:08:43
  They play. Well, yeah, he would have had, he would have had you walking out on the ice over, you know, Goff and they going, going.
• 2:08:48
  Right.
• 2:08:49
  It would have been a good way to go.
• 2:08:50
  I've died in many glorious ways, but I haven't done that yet.
• 2:08:53
  I think getting sliced in half.
• 2:08:55
  That's pretty good.
• 2:08:56
  That's pretty good.
• 2:08:57
  Yeah.
• 2:08:58
  Fantastic.
• 2:08:59
  Well, Jack, what can I say?
• 2:09:00
  This has been such a pleasure having you on.
• 2:09:02
  I mean, like, I didn't expect.
• 2:09:03
  We've really got into it.
• 2:09:04
  I've had so much fun.
• 2:09:05
  Just listen to you chat and reminiscing to go to take us down memory lane.
• 2:09:09
  It's been fantastic.
• 2:09:10
  Really?
• 2:09:11
  You know, what can I say?
• 2:09:12
  I'm a huge fan of yours as well.
• 2:09:13
  Always have been.
• 2:09:14
  And look, I can't wait to see what you are coming up for us next.
• 2:09:17
  Is there anything you'd like to.
• 2:09:18
  Yeah.
• 2:09:19
  Now it's the plug moment.
• 2:09:20
  Now it's the plug moment.
• 2:09:21
  I'm doing.
• 2:09:22
  I'm about to shoot the third season of this thing, which is based on the full type of
• 2:09:26
  Saga, which is on the British TV and an American TV here.
• 2:09:29
  And it, you know, it's got the word.
• 2:09:31
  Well, actually, I'll show it doesn't know the word Saga and the title, but it's a
• 2:09:35
  Saga.
• 2:09:36
  So it could go on for a while.
• 2:09:37
  And it's a good, nice group of mates is me Steven Moyer and Thomas Middleton.
• 2:09:42
  And there's a bunch of other great foe Millie Gibson.
• 2:09:45
  It's Joshua Orpin.
• 2:09:47
  And it's fun to do.
• 2:09:49
  It's, you know, intergenerational costume drama.
• 2:09:53
  It's, you know, it's, it's kind of like, I mean, I mean, succession is succession.
• 2:09:59
  It's, but I'm not going to pretend that we're up there with the kind of level of that show.
• 2:10:04
  But like, it's kind of Victorian succession.
• 2:10:06
  It's a lot of, you know, who doesn't like watching very rich Victorians be miserable and try to kill?
• 2:10:12
  Each other all the time.
• 2:10:13
  So if you're into that kind of vibe, come on in because we're about to do season three now and season.
• 2:10:21
  We've been recommissioned twice before anyone's even seen it in the US, which is.
• 2:10:26
  That's never happened to me before.
• 2:10:28
  So thought I'd seen it all, but apparently not.
• 2:10:32
  Very not.
• 2:10:33
  Still new things to come.
• 2:10:34
  Fantastic.
• 2:10:35
  Well, as I say, thank you so much.
• 2:10:36
  I can't wait to see it.
• 2:10:37
  And thank you so much for coming on half the picture.
• 2:10:39
  This was genuinely such a pleasure.
• 2:10:40
  My great pleasure.
• 2:10:41
  Thanks for having me.
• 2:10:42
  Take care.
• 2:10:51
  Hey, everyone.
• 2:10:52
  Thanks so much for listening to my chat with Jack Davenport.
• 2:10:55
  Remember to like and subscribe to the podcast, see you in another lesson episode.
• 2:10:58
  And stay tuned for more exciting interviews and guests coming soon on half the picture.
• 2:11:10
  You