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Wrestling with Ghosts · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

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History's strange, it's alien, and it won't give us what we
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would like to have. headline@billmc.com if you want
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to catch up with us. And things we've been doing,
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Mark Trump and tariffs. But we suspend those things for
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our third hour on a Tuesday because Dave Bowman, who's been
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with us all day in this hour, brings us Dave, does history.
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You want to follow WMMB on Instagram, it's at WMMB Radio.
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So Dave, we have claimed Greenland more than recently.
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I kind of like the idea here. Well, it's a complicated story,
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but we'll try to make. It easier for you, which is why
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you're here. Absolutely.
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So when I was looking at what we were going to do today, of
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course today is the day of the 17th Amendment was a was
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ratified. So I thought, well, we can talk
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about that. We can talk about tariffs, but
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as I was perusing things, I came across a photograph and it's an
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absolutely fascinating photograph.
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It's a man who is dishevelled and surprised and crazy looking.
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And when you realize the walls, Yeah, worse than that even.
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OK, he, I sent you the photo yesterday.
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So he. Did see that?
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He when, when, when you discover what the photograph is.
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He's been sitting in a cabin, probably 8 by 8, cabin that he
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built along with his partner in Greenland.
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And he, they've been living in this cabin for two years now.
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This is 1912. There's no computers, there's no
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tablets, there's no television, there's not even radio.
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What do you do for two years in a room the size of your studio?
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You develop Marty Feldman eyes and.
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When this photograph was taken on the day he was rescued this
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week in April of 1912, it it just captivated me and I started
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digging into the story, which leads to why he's there.
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And the reason that he's there has as much to do with geography
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as it does with international relationships.
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In fact, he's there because the United States of America said,
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hey, we own Greenland. He happens to be Danish.
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And his government said, Nah, But this is 1912, Bill.
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This isn't today. There's no satellites.
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There's no Mercator projection maps.
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It's hard for us to imagine, but 110 years ago nobody actually
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knew what Greenland look like and so the Dane said no, you
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don't, and they decided they were going to prove it.
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Which is how this guy ends up in a cabin for two years in
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Greenland. We'll dig into it in 60 seconds
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on WMNB Battle for Greenland, Dave.
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In 1891, Robert Perry, now you've probably heard that name,
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the famous Arctic explorer from the United States, Robert Perry
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was wandering about Greenland, exploring things.
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Because in those days, again, there were no maps, there were
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no satellite views. No one knew what Greenland, or
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the Arctic for that matter, actually looked like.
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He came across, as he was wandering through Greenland, he
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came across what he thought, what he believed, what he drew a
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map as a large channel. Now, this is not unusual in the
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Arctic Ocean, right? You get the Baffin Islands, all
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these little islands. You get Hudson Bay.
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You get the Northwest Passage. Another channel is not all that
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unusual. And across the way he saw some
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land. And so he concluded that
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Greenland as an island was in fact divided in half.
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And because it was divided in half, the Danes had a claim to
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Greenland. But that over there isn't
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Greenland. And so he named it Perryland,
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planted the American flag and said, aha, this is ours.
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Now imagine today where we'd be if, if Donald Trump didn't have
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to negotiate our Greenland. He could say, say, see, we own
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Perryland and that's what we needed, right?
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That would have solved a lot of problems.
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The Danes, however, the Danish government was not having this.
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They were, they were convinced that Greenland was 1 island, and
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they were going to make sure that Perry was proven wrong.
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How do you do that? Well, the only way to do it is
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to go up there and make another map.
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Now again, this is 19/18/91 to 1912.
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So, you know, how reliable is any map at that particular
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point? We see these maps from the
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Middle Ages of the world and we look at them and go, well,
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that's ridiculous. How could they not know the
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shape of that and so forth and so on.
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And, and reality is if you don't have satellites and you don't
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have even, even with map making in the 17 and 1800s, there are a
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lot of inaccuracies. You should see some of the maps
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that are drawn to the American West in the 18, early 1800s, in
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the 1700s, the Lewis and Clark expedition and that sort of
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thing. They're, they are wildly
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inaccurate. The, the maps of California.
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There's there's people that believe that California was
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split off as its own island because of Baja California down
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in Mexico. At any rate, the Danes decide,
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well, the best solution to this is we're going to send an
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expedition to Greenland to prove that Perryland does not exist.
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Because if Greenland is divided, well then I guess the Americans
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own Perry land in the north of it.
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If it isn't, it's whole and it's wholly Danish and we want to
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keep it that way. Today we'd kind of look at this
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with the a weird, you know, again, we, we think of Denmark
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as this little tiny country, Hans Christian Andersen, blah,
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blah, blah. But there was a time when
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Denmark was much more significant than it is now.
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Reality is, you know, things change.
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The Danes sent an explorer, very famous at the time, explorer guy
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by the name of Ludwig Milas Erickson.
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And his sole job was to go to Greenland, go around the outside
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edges of Greenland and prove that Robert Perry wasn't just
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wrong, he was wildly wrong. And we own all of this.
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And so Ericsson, which is a, a, a good Danish name, although
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it's spelled in the German way, not the, not the Danish way,
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heads off to Greenland with this giant expedition that's going to
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prove that the Americans are wrong.
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Greenland is whole and it belongs to us.
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And so he arrives in Greenland. And this, this expedition is,
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well, nobody knows. It wanders around Greenland for
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a year, year and a half or so. And then it just mysteriously
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unexplicable, inexplicably vanishes, which again, it's, you
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know, the 19 O 819 O 9. It's not all that unusual,
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right? I mean, things happen, and it is
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the Arctic. Where could they possibly have
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gone? And here's the real question.
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Did they manage to prove Perry wrong before they disappeared?
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This is not unlike George Mallory's climb of Mount
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Everest. Did they make it to the top or
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not? We don't know.
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We need to find his body because he may have had photographs, and
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if they took photographs at the summit, we can prove that he did
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it. But the problem, of course, was
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for many years nobody could find Mallory's body.
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Well, what happened to Erickson? What happened to his expedition?
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Where did he go? Did he manage to prove this, and
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if so, did he write it down? Well, we don't know.
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He's disappeared. He's vanished.
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The Danes at this point are almost apoplectic because
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America in 19 O 9/19/10 is a different place than it is
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today. We're not the superpower that we
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are today. We were an up and coming pre
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World War One, isolationist, heavily supported by tariffs on
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other countries, country that, well, other people look, kind of
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look down on us because we were very young.
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We were very brash. We were very argumentative about
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things and we were running around the world planting our
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flag on islands that belong to other people.
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We've got to know what happened. We've got to know the truth is
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we don't know that at this point.
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It's still in doubt. And the Danes found a man named
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Imjar Mickelson who actually has a Danish spelling to his name.
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He decides this not knowing stuff isn't good enough.
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The claim is uncertain. Those men are lost.
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Denmark needed a hero. Enter in Jar Mickelson, who's
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the man in that photograph who will be found after two years,
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This Week in Eight in 1912. It's not quite spelled like
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Feldman, but hey, close enough for me.
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Our first claim on Greenland about to be refuted when we
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continue on Bill Mick Live, our weekly dive into history.
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Dave Bowman joins us. On Bill Mick Live.
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And on this week's Dave does history, we're taking a look at
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the first US Greenland dispute over who owns this and why.
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Renewal by Anderson bringing you the hour.
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So Dave Denmark has dispatched in Jar Mickelson to settle this
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dispute that Robert Perry had started by thinking there was a
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channel where apparently one was not, but we didn't know that
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yet. Well, they actually sent
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Mickelson 1st and Mickelson disappears and injure Mickelson
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decides that this is not good. We, we need to settle this.
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And so again, imagine this, you don't know what happened.
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You, you, you have no clue what happened to these people, where
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they are, what they're doing, what happened to them.
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Did they map the thing? Did they not map the thing?
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We just don't know. But we're going to go see if we
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can find out. And so in 19 O 9 in Jar
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Mickelson set sail aboard the ship called the Alabama.
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It's a Sloop and he has six people with him, so.
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Denmark have a ship named Alabama.
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Well, it may not be a Danish ship, it might just be a ship
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that they could hire. Oh, OK.
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You know, it's just one of those things.
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And again, you got 7 people, Bill to explore all of Greenland
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looking for the missing guy. That's not.
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Sound like it's going to be a successful venture to be honest.
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That's not really a search party as much as it is a desperate
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gamble. It's not how you would search
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for somebody. But they set sail on the Alabama
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and disaster strikes the ship. The Alabama gets caught in the
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ice because this happened all the time.
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We've seen it happen with other ships.
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The the famous ship down South, S Atlantic, the God, I can't
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think of the name. Now that sank and it's in
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perfect condition. Now you can see it underwater.
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Their ship gets crushed by the ice and they're stuck.
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Well, several of the crew managed to make it back to
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Denmark and report and we we got there, but we lost the ship and
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in jar and his his young mechanic, a guy by the name of
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Ivor Iverson, which is the ultimate Danish name, right?
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That's that's a Scandinavian name from from right around here
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Ivor Iverson, they. Yes.
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They decide that they're going to stay and they're going to go
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look for Mickelson. So these these other four guys
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get back to Dan Denmark and report that.
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And the question now becomes, well, it's nineteen O 9.
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What's going to happen? Two guys traveling across
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Greenland. Are they going to be able to
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find the missing Mickelson? Will they find the maps?
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It's going to be a long ride on a dog sled.
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So two guys going on a trek across this vast frozen
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wasteland. Chances of success.
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They don't seem very hot. They don't.
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By the way, I'm mispronouncing his name.
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It's not in Jar Mickelson, it's Iznar Mickelson.
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You know, historical accuracy and all that.
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Yes. They decide they're going to
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head out across the frozen waste savant of of Art the Arctic in
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Greenland to try to find Mickelson.
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They are going to spend months travelling, about 500 miles
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total. They have a general idea where
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Mickelson was headed because they know where Perry has
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claimed to see this channel. They are going to endure as
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often happens in Arctic expeditions.
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They are going to endure frostbite course because it's 19
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O 9/19/10. We don't have, you know, The
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North Face or these other companies that make good Arctic
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gear and that at that point. No pocket heaters, right?
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I got you. They end up having
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hallucinations because you're out in the middle of an Arctic
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wasteland and you might see, I don't know, a desert Isle, who
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knows what, what kind of hallucinations they had.
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Magic mushroom, snow, water. What?
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Well, and starvation, of course, kicks in because, to paraphrase
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Sam Kinison, there's no food here.
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Exactly the Arctic. But they press on, and they
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press on for the better part of a year or so, 500 miles across
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the North End of Greenland, and against all odds, Bill, against
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every betting person that you could possibly get to be
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involved with this. They find the remains of
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Mickelson. Really, they find him and they
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start looking around, hoping that he wrote everything down.
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They don't have the strength themselves to go look if he
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didn't. And lo and behold, guess what
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they find? Nicholson made it all the way to
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where Perry said his channel was.
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It's not there. He wrote dead, wrote it all
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down, wrote a map, wrote everything that they could
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possibly need to disprove Perry's claim and to kind of,
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you know, stick it to the United States a little bit.
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Yeah. Here we go.
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Hooray. But now, Bill, we're 500 miles
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from the coast of Greenland or thereabouts, and it's still
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Greenland in 1910. It's still cold, it's still
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head, doesn't have any food, and oh, by the way, nobody knows
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where we are and we don't have a ship.
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What do we do? Mickelson and Iverson managed to
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build a cabin. They find enough spare wood that
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they build a cabin that's about 8 by 8, not very big, and
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they're going to set up in this cabin and wait to be rescued,
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but nobody knows where they are. Doesn't sound like much of A
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plan, yeah. It doesn't sound, but I guess at
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least inside you're out of the wind, you're out of the cold,
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you don't really have enough wood to make a fire, which means
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that even if you had food, you couldn't cook it.
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So they're going to hunker down inside this this cabin, and
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there they are going to sit for two full years.
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This is beyond the time they've already spent getting there,
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right? This is after all of that is
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done for two years. They're going to sit there in
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that cabin. The Danes, of course, they get
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the word that, well, when we left, those two guys were headed
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off into the wilderness. Don't know if they made it,
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don't know where they are. The Danes, however, need to
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know. They've got to know because is
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Greenland ours or is there actually a Perry Land?
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And the only way they can find out is if they send a party to
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rescue the rescue party. And so they send a group to
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Greenland to see if they. It sounds to me like they're
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kind of O for two already. Dave I.
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Think at that point, yeah, but it's a different world.
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We got to go find Mickelson. All right?
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I'm sorry. We got to go find Nicholson.
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No, Mickelson who was looking for Mitch, whatever his name is,
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the two guys and see if this thing is there and after two
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years, this week in 1912 they find them alive and quite crazy
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looking as you've seen in the photograph.
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I can imagine we wrap it up and take your calls when we
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continue. Dave does history here on Bill
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Mick Live. Find our podcasts at the.
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Topofthepage@billmick.com and on the free iHeartRadio app.
19:05
Yeah, you can make those favourites at the top of the
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app, along with the Florida Roundtable podcast, Dave Does
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History, What the Frock and the Dave Bowman Show, all of those
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set them top of the as your presets, top of the iHeartRadio
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ready to go. Our hour being brought to you by
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Renewal by Anderson as Dave Bowman, wrapping up the story of
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America's first conflict over Greenland.
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And it's been a harrowing tale. Dave, where are we sitting at
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here? So when we left you?
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Oh, wait a minute there. You're now you're back.
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I had button go bad on me. So when we left you, Mickelson
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and Iverson, who are hunting for, who were hunting for
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Erickson, have now been found. And that famous photograph which
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captured my attention is taken in that moment, and Mickelson
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just looks like he's crazy. Crazy he just looks.
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That's a good description. Crazy.
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But there is great rejoicing amongst the party, because not
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only did Mickelson find Erikson's remains, but he found
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Erikson's notes and maps and everything else.
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And all this has proven that Greenland is once again whole
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and therefore wholly Danish. He returns to Denmark a hero.
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He he has solidified their national identity.
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Everybody loves him. He's actually sent back to
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Greenland as the Inspector General of East Greenland
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Greenland, and he serves with great distinction and is a
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Danish national hero Did. They go on to populate Greenland
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well to some extent there. As much as it is populated,
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yeah. So he had another wooden cabin
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and and more plague I'm. Sure, this time was a lot more
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comfortable. You didn't have to.
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Didn't have to put up with all the things they put up before,
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which included, by the way, during his initial travail
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across travels against across Greenland.
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They had to put up with implacable cold.
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Of course, it's the Arctic scurvy which makes sense.
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Starvation. As we talked about frostbite,
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snow blindness, They had to cross icy seawater breaks.
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They had impassable sledding conditions.
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At some point they ended up with something called vitamin A
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poisoning. And what's that?
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Vitamin A poisoning is when you get too much vitamin A causes a
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lot of problems with your eyes and your internal organs.
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But guess what you get vitamin A poisoning from when you're in
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the Arctic. Cold.
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No. OK, you get it from eating the
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liver of animals, but they're not killing bears.
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In fact, there's a bear that will actually eat Mickelson's
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journal, so that's not it. What kind of animals do they
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have to eat the livers of? Only thing I can think is the
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sled dogs the. Sled dogs.
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They ate the sled dogs, they ate their livers.
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They end up with vitamin A poisoning.
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They faced apoplectic, apocalyptic storms.
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Not apoplectic. That wouldn't make sense.
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They had, of course, gaping crevices in the ice and assorted
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mortifications of the flesh. And as I said, Mickelson even
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had his diary eaten by a bear, just for good measure, I guess,
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said. Well, the diary was more tasty
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than either the humans would have been at that point,
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apparently. Well, the good news is that
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apparently he either had a copy of his diary or, you know, I
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mean, he's bored. He doesn't have anything else to
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do. She might as well write another
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copyright. Or he has a very good memory
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because after all of his adventures and Asnar Mickelson
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will write a book about this adventure into Greenland and to
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disprove Perry's claim for Perry land up in the North.
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And the book will go on to become an international
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bestseller. In fact, you can buy it today.
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It's called Against the Ice, the classic Arctic survival story.
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You can get it. I'm probably going to buy the
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audio version of it just to listen to while I walk.
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But it's it's a book and it would in in 2022, it'll actually
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become a Netflix special. There you go.
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And he writes this book. You can read it today.
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It's a classic. And by the way, Greenland then
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does not fade into obscurity. Its strategic importance really
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surges 40 years later during the Second World War and then again
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during the Cold War. Greenland becomes something of
23:57
an American base, even though we no longer have any claim to it,
24:00
because Perry got disproven. And so the United States just
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sort of said, OK, we didn't want it anyway.
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At least not that we don't need the international embarrassment
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of having been defeated thusly. Right by Denmark, but it pretty
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much becomes an American military station.
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If, if you will, fuel Air Force Base ends up there, you end up
24:25
with the Greenland, Iceland, UK gap with the SOSIS array.
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The submarine array stretches across there to from Greenland
24:35
to Iceland to keep the Soviet submarines tracked and those
24:37
sorts. And it becomes really important,
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at least strategically. Much more important than it had
24:43
been in 1912, when in JAR, Edgar Mickelson was photographed after
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sitting in a cabin for two years, wandering around all this
24:55
place with vitamin A poisoning and frostbite and starvation.
24:59
Just eventually heal from this stuff, huh?
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Yeah, just to prove Robert Perry wrong, which I guess in the
25:07
world of motivations is, it's a good one.
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Must be a pretty good one, yeah? It's not one that I would have
25:14
gone to the Arctic for, but hey, I'm not Danish.
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And we're back in 60 seconds. You want in?
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It's 321-768-1240 on WMMB. Dave Bowman with us.
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What Dave does history is we take a look at the first battle
25:29
for Greenland, which we, I don't know, maybe fortunately lost.
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And I don't think I'd have gone through the two years.
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Well, no, I wouldn't have gone period, Dave.
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Not not a thing I would have done.
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I, I love being in cold weather, but no, I'm not, I'm not good.
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You know, I have this weird, I for many years I had this thing
25:50
where I wanted to climb Mount Everest, but it's just it, I
25:55
don't know that I could live for 2-3 years in that kind of
26:00
environment. And plus, you know how much I
26:02
like to eat my blood sugar would go to just not if I, if I starve
26:07
to death. So although I guess I wouldn't
26:10
need the insulin, right? Well, probably not.
26:14
It, it, it so you talked about strategic importance and and it
26:19
is again that today and now with the potential for the minerals
26:24
that are available when you're able to mine or drill in
26:29
Greenland there there seems to be some reasons to have deals
26:32
with the Danish other than just claiming it out right for the
26:36
US. Right.
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I guess we could send another expedition up there to, to try
26:40
to do that. But yeah, it's just it's a very
26:43
militarily strategic position you have.
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It's a perfect place for missile defence, radar stations, Arctic
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surveillance, which is even more important now than it's ever
26:54
been before. Of course, I mentioned that we
26:56
already have fuel Air Force Base there.
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It's truly, we send our people there.
27:02
Yeah, we used to send our folks from my guard unit there for
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summer camp, although it was obviously winter camp.
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You've got a lot of natural resources there, Uranium, which,
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you know, thanks, Hillary. We need to get back anyways.
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Zinc. We don't know if there's oil or
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gas there. Nobody even knows.
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And of course, there's a theory here, Bill, that the Earth is
27:24
warming up and the ice is melting.
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And Greenland and Iceland, Iceland was named Iceland to
27:31
keep people from going there because it's really nice and
27:33
green. And Greenland was named I
27:35
Greenland because it's icy and they wanted people to go there.
27:39
Maybe it could become, you know, really become Greenland if all
27:44
that ice melts and global warming happens.
27:48
I don't see it going that way. Line one.
27:50
You're up on Bill Mick live. Good morning.
27:53
Mario Cape Canaveral. Yeah, Mario.
27:56
This is a great discussion. The I'm I've been wondering if
28:02
if a President Trump's, you know, this, this, this weird
28:06
discussion that he that he gave brings up every now and then
28:09
about about Greenland and being becoming another state so forth.
28:13
Has to do with just exactly what you mentioned on the program
28:16
this morning, the strategic importance of, of Greenland.
28:21
Not to mention that there's a probably gigantic quantities of
28:25
oil under, under the water there in that in that area.
28:29
And I think Russia, you know, I was looking at a map of, of
28:33
Russia, you know, the, you know, a globe and, and, and Russia is
28:37
very close. And I was thinking Russia has
28:40
their eye on that. Could it be that that the
28:43
President Trump just wants a heads up to Russia that
28:49
Greenland is, is is is, you know, you're not having anything
28:53
to do to do with Greenland. Don't even think about.
28:56
It I think that's a very likely part of the equation here, Dave,
29:02
you've lived in that strategic Cold War world seems like an
29:05
advantageous to have assets and and a a warning stance.
29:12
OK, not so much Russia, but who else is out there that's
29:18
spending a lot of money in places that are diverse to build
29:24
infrastructure and influence? China, of course.
29:27
West Taiwan, exactly. And they are doing that in in
29:31
Greenland. By the way, in 1946, I don't
29:35
know if you knew this or not, 1946 President Harry Truman, who
29:41
CBS News ranks far above Ronald Reagan as the best president,
29:45
made an offer to Denmark to buy Greenland for $100 million.
29:51
And Greenland or Denmark, sorry, politely said, no, we, we, we
29:57
don't want that. We're not selling Greenland,
30:01
which is probably the smart thing to do because it's just
30:04
going to become more and more valuable and you could get a
30:06
better price later on, kind of like my.
30:09
House and well, they can. Yeah, exactly.
30:12
Although I would urge you to go quickly, my son, go quickly and
30:16
negotiating for mineral rights for anything that's pulled out
30:19
of there. They could.
30:21
They could be wealthy forever, you know?
30:23
But the problem is, if they do it with the Chinese or the
30:26
Russians, but primarily the Chinese, what does that create
30:31
for us as a strategic situation? So you can see why Trump is
30:34
interested. Trump is not the first.
30:36
All this criticism of Trump, is it because he's talking about
30:40
Greenland or is it because he's Trump and not Truman?
30:43
Nobody complained about it when Truman did it.
30:46
You know, that's an interesting point because I think that's a
30:49
lot of the resistance that President Trump sees is because
30:52
orange man bad and that's all they can say.
30:54
It's the same with tariffs. When when Nancy Pelosi or Bernie
30:58
Sanders are calling for tariffs, it's great.
31:01
If you put Trump's words word for word into the mouth of
31:04
Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter, they
31:09
would stand up and cheer for it. It's not what is said, it's
31:12
who's saying it. And I really think a lot of this
31:14
objection to to this, if this was Joe Biden or Barack Obama
31:18
suggesting this, Denmark would say, well, let's talk about it.
31:24
But because it's Trump, people go, well, I like this call BSc,
31:30
which I'm not going to say on there.
31:33
Very true. And if we would just get back to
31:38
people wanting to do what's right for the country, and I
31:41
believe Donald Trump is trying to do that.
31:42
I really do what's right for the country regardless of which side
31:46
of the aisle it comes from that maybe we would be far ahead.
31:50
Dave. It was a very interesting Dave
31:52
does history this morning. Thank you my friend, I do
31:54
appreciate it. Well, I enjoy it and take a look
31:57
at that picture. It's crazy.
31:59
Oh yeah, it is. And we will be back with Dave
32:02
does history next Tuesday this hour brought to you by renewal
32:06
by Anderson, a wide open Wednesday tomorrow where we're
32:09
going to talk cops and doge and other things.
32:11
So enjoy your Tuesday. We'll see you tomorrow, folks.
32:19
Check out more. Stories from history.
32:21
At Dave Does History. Dot org.