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A Navy Combat Photographer Shares Why She Stayed Silent After MST · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  Hi, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Network podcast.
• 0:03
  Um, today we have a great guest with us, Paula J.
• 0:07
  Kemp.
• 0:07
  She is a U.S.
• 0:08
  Navy combat veteran who served during Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom as a combat photographer.
• 0:16
  She is the founder and president of Unjustly Serve Foundation and Unjustly Serve LLC, a veteran-led advocacy initiative focused on accountability, prevention, and reform surrounding military sexual trauma.
• 0:30
  Paula is deeply proud of her service and the men and women who wear the uniform.
• 0:34
  Her work is grounded in the belief that true support for military includes holding systems accountable because integrity, trust, and leadership are essential to readiness and to those who serve.
• 0:46
  As an MST survivor and peer support specialist, Paula spent years working directly with veterans navigating the long-term impact of trauma, including the VA claims process, discharge upgrades, and access to care.
• 0:59
  Her work is rooted in lived experience and a commitment to ensure that survivors are not only heard, but supported with real actionable pathways forward.
• 1:09
  Paula is the co-author of Unjustly Served, the Brutal Reality of Military Sexual Trauma, written alongside Marshall Kirkpatrix.
• 1:18
  Marshall is a U.S.
• 1:19
  Marine Corps veteran and licensed professional counselor specializing in sexual trauma, PTSD, and complex trauma.
• 1:27
  His clinical expertise brings critical insights into the patterns, behaviors, and long-term impacts of military sexual trauma, helping bridge the gap between survivor experience and professional understanding.
• 1:39
  Welcome to the show, Paula.
• 1:40
  Thank you.
• 1:41
  Thank you for inviting me.
• 1:43
  So you served in the Navy.
• 1:45
  Tell us what years did you serve?
• 1:48
  I joined uh the reserves actually in 1998.
• 1:53
  And uh and then I exited after uh uh it was 2006.
• 1:59
  Okay.
• 2:00
  And what was what were some of the duty stations that you were at during your well as a reservist, it's it started off uh quite a bit different.
• 2:09
  And then back back in '98, before 9-11, it was completely different, I believe, than what it is now.
• 2:15
  Um but I uh I was stationed in Southern California at Coronado, Coronado Island, the air base down there.
• 2:24
  Right.
• 2:24
  And uh with combat camera unit.
• 2:27
  And then um once 9-11 happened, I was gone a lot.
• 2:31
  So I'd get activated and sent to different different things that needed to be covered.
• 2:36
  Yeah, I I know what you're talking about because I was in the Army Reserve um before 9-11.
• 2:42
  I I served on active duty from 1990 to 2000 that I got out.
• 2:48
  Um after 9-11, I came back into the Army Reserve, and I remember you know having combat camera at various units, and and you're right, after 9-11, they were deployed all the time.
• 3:02
  They were they really didn't need to be on active duty because they were on active duty orders anyway all the time and right, you know.
• 3:11
  So uh during your Navy experience, uh what what are some of the key issues or or some of the I would say what are some key experiences you had during that time of service that that changed you or or or were very impactful as you think about them now?
• 3:32
  Well, you know, my first thoughts are always the good ones.
• 3:35
  Um, lots of fun.
• 3:37
  I mean, you wear a camera around your neck and you outrank everybody.
• 3:40
  So that was always a lot of fun.
• 3:42
  Um, you know, getting to bump somebody out of the way, excuse me, sir, but I got to get this shot kind of a thing.
• 3:47
  I really enjoyed that.
• 3:49
  But um, I joined very late in life, not very late.
• 3:53
  I mean, I was 34 when I joined.
• 3:55
  And um it was, it was just it was my turn.
• 3:59
  It was my time.
• 4:00
  My children were all in school by then, and I had three kids.
• 4:04
  And so the reserve just worked perfectly for me to get to serve my country and do what I wanted to always do, but life had taken a different turn.
• 4:12
  So it was time, and I went and I joined the reserves.
• 4:16
  I didn't even know how to turn on a camera when I joined.
• 4:20
  It was a program that was called, I think it was called AIA or something like that, accelerated integration accession, something like that.
• 4:27
  You know, the military and their acronyms.
• 4:29
  Yeah.
• 4:29
  Um, so it was kind of an on-the-job training program, is basically how I looked at it.
• 4:36
  I sold real estate part-time.
• 4:38
  I was a PTA mom, a stay-at-home mom with three kids.
• 4:41
  My husband at the time was a fireman.
• 4:43
  So I just was able to volunteer a lot and uh cover different stories and uh exercises and things that were going on at the time.
• 4:54
  Um, I had an absolute blast.
• 4:57
  I my unit was amazing.
• 5:00
  My brothers in my unit were very uh supportive of me and excited to teach me, but I was excited to learn.
• 5:08
  And so I accelerated and they just really supported me.
• 5:12
  I went back to school and took some photography and things like that to help help make it so that I understood what they were, you know, trying to teach me.
• 5:20
  And back then it was still film.
• 5:22
  It hadn't transitioned over into digital.
• 5:24
  It was shortly after that that it transferred to digital.
• 5:27
  And then I really started accelerating because I could understand it and see the results much faster than one weekend a month.
• 5:35
  Uh by the time 9-11 hit, I was doing pretty well with learning.
• 5:40
  And and I mean, I they even had to teach me how to salute.
• 5:43
  I mean, it's just it's just comical.
• 5:44
  I don't think they have the program anymore.
• 5:47
  Um, I went to boot camp in it, it wasn't right away.
• 5:52
  I think it took them two years before I finally went to boot camp.
• 5:55
  And it was, yeah, and and that's a funny story in itself as well, because in the reserves back then, it they told me when they recruited me, it was like, well, you'll go, you'll go to boot camp, but it's reserve boot camp, you know, and it's in New Orleans, and you can um they have maid service, you know, if you stand up.
• 6:15
  Oh, okay.
• 6:16
  Yeah, yeah, you know, and I'm like, all right, that's got that's awesome.
• 6:19
  Yeah, I'm all for it.
• 6:21
  So I planned on that, and then right before I want to say it was about two weeks, maybe a month before I left, they uh decided to start some new program at drop you into week six at um um in Chicago, uh in Illinois at Great Lakes.
• 6:43
  So it was, I thought I was going for Mardi Gras and I was gonna have a good old time on the Navy's bill.
• 6:48
  And instead I froze my butt off at uh in Chicago at Great Lakes and had to fit in at week six of boot camp.
• 6:59
  Um, it was pretty funny.
• 7:00
  They depended on your unit to bring you up to speed, you know, and prepare you for that boot camp.
• 7:07
  And my guys, you know, they thought they were real funny, and and I love them to death.
• 7:11
  We had so much fun, but they told me to prepare for it is never volunteer for anything and go watch Full Metal Jacket and you'll do fine.
• 7:22
  Nice.
• 7:23
  Nice.
• 7:24
  Oh gosh.
• 7:25
  So that was the kind of guys that I worked with.
• 7:27
  They were wonderful.
• 7:29
  Um, you know, I I got to travel the world.
• 7:32
  I got to to see things that I never ever would have seen.
• 7:36
  Um, you know, I was uh I was raised pretty pretty poor in um Southern California, a little town called Pomona.
• 7:43
  It was very um uh combined ethnicities.
• 7:48
  I I was more the minority, but never really knew it.
• 7:51
  I just it it wasn't anything, I think it prepared me to just fit into life anywhere I needed to go, which really migrated into my experience in the Navy.
• 8:00
  I just never had any fear of that kind of stuff.
• 8:03
  I I was always a curious cat and would ask questions, you know, why do you do that?
• 8:08
  What's that?
• 8:08
  Any day the Navy was my favorite uh uh exercises and coverings to do uh different programs that were going on.
• 8:16
  And I loved it.
• 8:17
  Uh accelerated and started getting notice, started getting requested for different uh training exercises that were going on.
• 8:26
  One of them was uh Fleet Week in San Francisco, and I did that uh a couple a couple of years, and then um I think it was 2003, um, I was one of the more experienced photographers.
• 8:42
  And because of my position, I was able to leave and volunteer and go before other people.
• 8:48
  So I ended up being one of the first ones to go down and scout the areas and uh try to prepare for the team that was coming in, the camera team that was coming in and stuff like that.
• 8:59
  So I started scouting around.
• 9:01
  I had a driver that knew the area and would drive me around to different places to try to get the shots, right?
• 9:06
  To post everybody for the big parade of ships and all that.
• 9:10
  And while I was out there, um, I saw the Golden Gate Bridge and I was at a museum or something.
• 9:16
  And um I just mentioned to the curator there, of course I'm in uniform, you know, and and and I said, gosh, it'd be really nice to get up there and take pictures from there, you know, because you got the blue angels, you got the uh the ships, and God, that would just be such a phenomenal shot.
• 9:33
  He said, let me make a phone call.
• 9:35
  And uh, and he did.
• 9:37
  And I was the first military person, photographer, definitely, but first uh military personnel, supposedly, is what they told me, and the second female ever allowed up to the top of the Golden Gate Bridge, second to the Queen of England.
• 9:51
  Um yeah, so you know, so I've got great stories and several more like that, where I just because I was so curious, and I think I just didn't have any, I didn't know better.
• 10:04
  You know, you don't know what you don't know.
• 10:06
  And so my training wasn't in a type of grooming of fear.
• 10:12
  Um, you know, being 35, a mother of three, you know, I came in, most people thought I was an officer, and here I was only an E2, E3, you know, when I joined or got out into the fleet and things like that.
• 10:24
  Um, the longest I was on board ship was two weeks.
• 10:28
  And uh the rest of the time was being a ground pounder and and uh working a lot with the Marine Corps and joint forces, worked pretty much every branch.
• 10:38
  So I, you know, I had a lot of fun.
• 10:41
  Um I experienced the bad stuff.
• 10:46
  Um I experienced the MST when uh I think it was that same trip, I don't know if it was that year or the year after.
• 10:55
  I think it was the year after.
• 10:57
  Pretty sure it was the year after that because I covered Fleet Week for five years.
• 11:02
  And I think it was the the year after that um that I experienced military sexual trauma.
• 11:09
  And um I didn't tell anybody.
• 11:13
  I I was there with another female from my unit.
• 11:15
  We weren't real close, and um I when it happened, I didn't tell anybody.
• 11:22
  So I didn't want anybody to know because I was so afraid.
• 11:27
  First of all, I was afraid that my brothers in my unit would get involved and then they'd get in trouble.
• 11:33
  Um, and or I think it was more, and I was fearful that I wouldn't be allowed to do my job anymore uh without a babysitter, you know, without having an escort, or I just wouldn't have the freedom to do the job that I loved so much.
• 11:49
  So that was a big part of why I didn't tell anybody what happened.
• 11:53
  I just pressed it down and and tried to forget about it and move on, charged on.
• 12:00
  And uh then I ended up, I want to say about two years, maybe it was about two years, my marriage started failing.
• 12:09
  Um things were going on, but I didn't really, it was after 9-11 and and just you know, life had changed and it had become more stressful, and I was being, you know, called up more often.
• 12:22
  And so then they sent me to the Middle East.
• 12:25
  And when I came home from there, now I wasn't in one place for very long ever, uh my entire career, my whole eight years of of service.
• 12:35
  Uh, the longest I was gone was for training for schools, uh, A school and and C school, combat uh photography school, and things like that.
• 12:44
  Um but when I was in the Middle East, I was there for 30 days.
• 12:48
  And it was very, very compacted with lots of go, go, go, um, you know, places that I I'd have to go and cover and see.
• 12:58
  And uh the pictures that I took, the stories that I heard, the aftermath, what I saw, just the entire experience was just very jam-packed with a lot of emotion.
• 13:10
  Um, you know, just a lot of stuff that I think that, you know, training doesn't prepare you for that, right?
• 13:17
  I'd done a lot of trainings for combat, a lot of Camp Pendleton trainings.
• 13:21
  They sent us to, you know, to the jihadi school where we had to, you know, practice snipers and just all that crazy, crazy town stuff um that we went through there that was a lot of fun, but it was very serious as well.
• 13:34
  So, anyway, when I came back, um I started having some anger issues.
• 13:43
  And uh I also got injured while I was there in the Middle East in Kuwait.
• 13:48
  I got let me uh let me stop you real quick there for a second.
• 13:51
  I want to get back on a couple of things.
• 13:54
  So um, so you had you had been in five years uh more or less before the MST, right?
• 14:02
  Yes.
• 14:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:03
  Okay.
• 14:04
  And what rank were you at that when the MST happened?
• 14:11
  I was at E4, I believe.
• 14:13
  Okay.
• 14:14
  Um, and this was why you were deployed.
• 14:18
  That was on a training.
• 14:19
  No, that was on a training.
• 14:20
  That was okay.
• 14:22
  It was on a training thing.
• 14:23
  So where does the where does the MST fit in terms of so you're you were just talking about deployment?
• 14:30
  Where does the MST fit in terms of that?
• 14:32
  Was it before or after how it was it was before?
• 14:37
  Well, I had already been deployed elsewhere.
• 14:40
  Um but it was before I went to the Middle East.
• 14:44
  Okay.
• 14:45
  So you so you were you were stateside, it was a training exercise, um and the MST happened, but you never reported it, right?
• 14:56
  Correct.
• 14:57
  Okay.
• 14:57
  And you were worried about it was the perpetrator um same rank, lower rank, so superior.
• 15:09
  He was a first class.
• 15:10
  I was a third class.
• 15:12
  Okay, so he's a couple ranks above you.
• 15:15
  Yeah, yeah.
• 15:16
  So the way that that happened, um, it was very clever.
• 15:20
  Uh at Fleet Week, they they the city and the businesses will host a ship or host, you know, we had a host for our ship.
• 15:32
  And I'm not gonna say what ship I was on, but I was I was on one of the bigger ships.
• 15:36
  And um, and so it was a brewery up there that hosted us.
• 15:41
  So then at that, at that party, you know, when you you come in and it's like the night before the actual parade of ships, I believe, um, they host a party for you.
• 15:49
  And and so we all went and I got invited, you know, to be part of ship's company and and go, and I was gonna be covering it, taking pictures and what have you.
• 15:57
  And so um, no, I didn't, I don't think I was taking pictures of that.
• 16:03
  I got invited to go and participate.
• 16:05
  So I was like, I was ship's company.
• 16:08
  Um so I went and I was fed and and they had beer and you know, so we're just all enjoying the the hosting and the party and and all of that, the fun part of it.
• 16:18
  And so I was working the next morning and I had to get up early in order to prepare.
• 16:25
  And so I needed to leave early, but it was already dark out, and I didn't know, you know, where was going.
• 16:32
  I was kind of like, I was asking the the people that I was with that I'd gone there with, I said, okay, how do I get back?
• 16:38
  You know, do I go this way, that way?
• 16:40
  Because it was in the financial district.
• 16:42
  And so it was it was a bit of a hike, you know, it's maybe a couple miles.
• 16:46
  And so one of them offered to walk me back.
• 16:49
  And um I thought that was great.
• 16:52
  You know, I was gonna have to be alone.
• 16:54
  And so, you know, we took off and um it was the financial district, it was very isolated, very desolate.
• 17:03
  It's closed down, nobody was really around.
• 17:06
  And yeah, so that's where that happened.
• 17:10
  And um, I didn't know his name, I couldn't remember his name, wouldn't have mattered because I wouldn't have told anybody anyway.
• 17:18
  And um he told me that, you know, if if you tell anybody they won't believe you because you're just a reservist, I'm shifts company, um, you know, I outrank you, you know, all that, all that mental BS.
• 17:32
  Right.
• 17:33
  So I didn't, I didn't tell anybody.
• 17:36
  But later, so the next day, actually, I sucked it up and and I did my job.
• 17:44
  I did what I had to do, but I had met a couple of chiefs, and because I was older, people assumed that I was um an officer.
• 17:53
  So I, you know, they for some reason, you know, didn't look at my rank.
• 17:57
  Uh I don't know.
• 17:58
  Anyway, um, I had met some chiefs, and so they invited me to go the next day out with them.
• 18:05
  They were going to go to the comedy club and and things like that.
• 18:08
  Well, I was scared, I you know, even though at the time I might not have admitted it, but I was I was just kind of kind of scared.
• 18:18
  And and so they invited the whole unit to go there.
• 18:22
  I think they were part of the ship's uh photography department.
• 18:26
  And um, I thought everybody was going, and it ended up being just myself and these two chiefs.
• 18:30
  Well, they were fabulous, they were super supportive, super nice, completely professional.
• 18:36
  And it ended up just being the three of us at this uh comedy club.
• 18:40
  Well, the girl that I was with uh that had gone with me, um, she found out the next day.
• 18:46
  And so she she um tried to uh make a big deal out of that.
• 18:52
  That I was, what do you call it, where you're um I can't think of the word, um or they were fraternizing.
• 19:01
  I don't know which way it would go because you know I was in I was you know only on E4 at the time.
• 19:07
  So um so she tried to cause problems for that, and that just caused me to shut down all the more, you know.
• 19:13
  So I became so paranoid of doing the wrong thing, even though all of my intentions were harmless.
• 19:21
  I mean, you know, being one of the one of the crew, one of the one of the buddies, you know, let's all hang out and have fun.
• 19:28
  Um so that was that was kind of detrimental.
• 19:31
  Years later, I I ran into her again and and I hated her.
• 19:36
  And I there was some transference there, and I treated her like crap from that moment on because I felt like she was just trying to cause more injury instead of asking me what was going on with me, because she even said I definitely my personality changed.
• 19:53
  Um, you know, she just didn't understand.
• 19:56
  And so years later, when I finally told her what happened, and this was after I had started uh my first nonprofit, and I I contacted her.
• 20:09
  It was Facebook came up and and I contacted her.
• 20:12
  I said, I said, you didn't know this, but I had been raped the day before all of that went down, and she felt so bad.
• 20:22
  And and and just for the whole way in which she experienced me and I experienced her, it was nice to have that ability to come together and have grace for each other, you know?
• 20:36
  Yeah, I'm saying so so that was kind of that was kind of cool.
• 20:39
  But that was that was uh the only person that could have known, you know, what had happened at the time because she was there and saw kind of a a switch in me.
• 20:49
  But other than that, I think I I hit it pretty well until I wrote the book.
• 20:54
  I know I'm kind of jumping around, but when once we wrote the book, then some of the guys that I still keep in touch with from my unit, they reached out to me and said, What the heck?
• 21:04
  Why didn't you tell us?
• 21:05
  You know, that kind of a thing, you know, and that was nice too to be kind of validated um with their reaction too, but grateful that it was much later because it didn't impact my career at the time.
• 21:19
  But I I think the ill the story illustrates well um, you know, sort of the I mean you sort of the difficulties of being um not just a woman in the military, although for it certainly happens on a greater scale and more often than women for women, but just being part of an elite group or unit and and that has a spread de core unity, these kind of concepts built into it, right?
• 21:55
  And then being an outlier and the difficulties of if I tell I'm might harm my buddies, my teammate, who knows what's gonna you know, all this and and um as well as as well as you know your perpetrator made a good point.
• 22:13
  I mean he's it it's it it could be very possible even likely maybe that you weren't listened to because you were reservist you know so so but it but it creates like within the military whom I served I served in the military for a very long time a lot of people have it's still this there's like um you can be easily disempowered um based on rank gender the situation so on and so forth um and you're you're part of this this unit this group but you have this experience that's very much against the group norms and so on but it can be very difficult to to say something because of all these other factors that come into play does that make sense absolutely absolutely and so mst whether it happens to a man or a woman is those are common factors for men um you know they're they're similar sort of things of like what kind of man am I that I let this happen what will people think of me will anything happen will I you know so it's despite within the military we have all these structures and systems about reporting and whatever um it's good to have a system but the issues are cultural more than anything when you think about um ideas of being a dishear disharmonist disharmonious person in the group you know the person that this happened to and potentially upsetting that and and will you get the justice you deserve and and so on and so forth that just having a system is not enough you need cultural awareness cultural change um I think in our our current administration I have some real uh criticisms of um their approach to these sort of issues um and so unfortunately you know when you when you talk about military and and changing culture uh in my experience right it's always the eye rolls of like oh here we go you know stuff like that um but it really does need to change there really your story is unfortunately one of many many many stories um within this so um uh you mentioned the book I'd like to shift to that a little bit uh or actually let's look at your the first nonprofit you started what prompted that what was what was your goals and objectives uh what were you trying to accomplish with that first nonprofit sure well um when I got out like like I started to say um was uh I thought it was I I thought it was PTSD but I didn't know I just had a lot of anger and a lot of stuff that I witnessed um in Kuwait uh was tri well I found out later you know once I start learning in therapy what that what all that was it was triggering a lot of uh the MST and things like that.
• 25:43
  So um anyway so I went to file because I got injured while I was there I was bit by something and it caused a systemic issue within my foot and my circulation and all that kind of stuff.
• 25:53
  So so I went to the VA to start getting some help with that and um I ended up having to file a claim.
• 26:02
  So the person I sat down with uh who was my advocate he uh was an army ranger in Vietnam and uh he had been helping veterans for years and years and so we started my claim and and I was just sharing with him you know a lot of my feelings and things that we went through still not talking about the MST and he just came out and he asked me he said you know did you experience MST?
• 26:28
  And I went he says can I ask you something he goes you don't have to answer but and I'm like well what is that I I'd never heard it before and so he said military sexual trauma and I just started crying and I was like how did you know you know I've never told anybody.
• 26:47
  Right.
• 26:48
  And so anyway so he helped me file and and launched that he got me into some therapy through the vet center and then eventually I got into the VA healthcare system and started getting therapies and things like that.
• 27:01
  As I started progressing and getting better um he asked me if I would sit in with him because he was starting to have so this was around 2010 2011 around around there he started having more women be referred to him and he could feel that they were a little uncomfortable sitting with him.
• 27:22
  So he asked if I would sit sit in with him and kind of be their battle buddy so that they would feel more comfortable another feedback.
• 27:28
  So that's what launched it.
• 27:30
  That's what started me becoming an advocate uh and then eventually it kind of grew and he said why don't you you know let's get you to start a nonprofit so I created a nonprofit called Veterans Sisters and it's in Southern California and um it was basically just going with veteran female veterans helping them navigate the claim system not being a VSO or anything like that but helping them how to gather their evidence how to gather their paperwork and all that kind of stuff.
• 28:02
  I end up being a battle buddy going with them to their uh comp and pens, going with them to the VA to get them into the healthcare system.
• 28:11
  The VA is a very uncomfortable place for sexual trauma survivors.
• 28:16
  It's very male dominated and it's military right so it could be very triggering it's very hard for women to go especially by themselves.
• 28:24
  So I just kind of became their service dog and then advocated for them when they were going through and meeting with their doctors and the questions to ask and things like that.
• 28:33
  It grew and um it just blossomed into becoming a full on battle buddy program incorporated a lot of the women that I had been helping they wanted to do something more once they got to that point.
• 28:45
  And so I kind of developed a staff and a team and and it just grew and grew in um so that was the first nonprofit and I did that for about seven years.
• 28:56
  Okay so so in that um you I mean I can imagine how uh for many women because of your help and assistance I would think they probably got higher ratings and got a lot more care they probably without without you uh without your program uh how many women well you may not have the answer that but I'm sure there are countless women who would not be getting care at all by not be getting disability payments at all right well I I humbly say that I I hope that they would have gone out and found a way to to find it it's not necessarily what I was doing but yes I think that it it helped that I had such a great advocate and so I could see the benefit in that and that just became my calling uh I think that it did benefit a lot uh definitely benefited me as well it was great therapy for me too to give back and help um help you know my sisters but the the the really interesting thing and and now I kind of laugh about it not that it's a funny subject but on my own naive you know my own assumptions that it didn't happen to men I had no idea that men suffered MST.
• 30:18
  I never thought about it wasn't my experience right so I started having men coming to me being referred to me too to help them with their personal statements um and navigate through you know all the paperwork and all that stuff that they had to gather for their VSO and then sometimes even just to go to the VSO.
• 30:36
  It's just such a hard thing to overcome it right so I battle buddy up and I helped the men too um and then I became an MST advocate.
• 30:46
  So my specialty became helping them write their statement their personal statement of their MST trauma and once that that was so empowering because once that's done and you've got it on paper, it then becomes the document that you can hand when you go to your comp and pen or you can hand when you go to your medical appointment.
• 31:07
  And you don't have to re-traumatize yourself to go through it and re-say it all right and I can remember when I was going to my comp and pens, um, you'd have to tell it every time, you know, and I fought for five years before I ever got any service connection.
• 31:22
  And so I'd have to I I appeal and appeal and appeal and I have to go back and redo it and redo it.
• 31:27
  So found that the benefit of being able to hand it to the doctor and say here read this and then ask me questions because before that after the interview I'd be in my car just crying and and beating myself up because I forgot to say this.
• 31:41
  I should have said that I, you know, and so it kind of became a staple item of the claims process that became very important.
• 31:50
  And I really advocated for that that a well-written personal statement that is not a police report, it is not dry and just factual it is emotional.
• 31:59
  It is impactful and it may even have a few cuss words in it because that is your raw, true feeling of your experience and then it gives that rater the ability to really feel and see what you went through so that they can hopefully feel your injury not just read about it, you know, or not just it's not just a police report.
• 32:20
  So that that became very it's still I'm very passionate about that the importance of your personal statement being written in a way that is impactful.
• 32:28
  And it becomes a tool to where you never have to go through that again.
• 32:31
  You just hand it off and have them read it.
• 32:34
  Yeah I think it's uh I can definitely see the value in that do you feel like um institutionally structurally things have changed for the better for veterans in terms of those kind of claims or is it still very much an uphill battle for um people trying to uh you know claim make mst part of their claims process well I in my experience I think that it has become I don't want to say easier I want to say that there have been more so when I filed there wasn't an MST designator it was it was PTSD or major depression and even back then PTSD was only for combat veterans.
• 33:19
  Well I kind of fell into that because I was a combat photographer so I was in a combat MOS but I never saw live combat did I go to combat you know areas and um saw some things but it wasn't I just didn't feel that that was combat.
• 33:36
  So anyway MST became the designator after I got I was I I got 50% from major depression back then.
• 33:44
  And that was in 2014 2015 somewhere around in there is when I finally got my service connection for 50%.
• 33:52
  So since then I'm an advocate so I even for myself I am expecting of certain services I am expecting of certain um um treatment right so when when I was in Southern California and especially when I was helping other veterans I become a pit bull on a pork chop and I'm very protective and I'm gonna make sure that my veterans are taken care of well so it was in the beginning before I you know learned to be a smooth operator you know I was rather abrasive and and combative you know and so they'd be like oh God here comes Paula you know when I go with my veterans to the VA and so I had to learn to iron that out and be a little bit more uh gentle and not it and you know use the system to benefit the veteran and not to go in and try to get them to change everything.
• 34:47
  So I think that yes things have changed they have gotten for the better are they where they should be no common sense says it should be no is it where the civilians are at no but it's better than it was so you know that's kind of like a compared to what answer.
• 35:10
  Yeah right right so is it getting better?
• 35:13
  Yes but there is lots of room for improvement and a lot of us are not crybabies we're not just whining and complaining we're saying here's what happened and here's what we can do to fix it.
• 35:25
  Here's what we can do to make it better.
• 35:28
  I appreciate all of the MST reporting agencies now that they have for sexual assault the SARCs and the SARTs and whatever you know all the different branches call it um that's a step in the right direction but it still has a long way to go uh to get to even what is on the civilian side yeah and I think um part part of the issue again it's about cultural it's a cultural issue and you know as I've talked to I I remember talking to leaders about moral injury we were talking to um I forget exact but she was she was sort of like she helped people get funding and help help get grant funding and so on um and we were talking to her about moral injury it wasn't it wasn't me as much as a colleague and she relayed this story to me uh because she was very frustrated and I got frustrated at afterwards she told me the story but the short of it was she hadn't served she wasn't a veteran but she helped people get funding veteran organizations and after my colleague was talking about moral injury her attitude was I think you should probably focus on heroes more because that gets funding this like women you know with their feelings hurt and stuff and and you know people aren't going to respond to that and I was so freaking angry um that she might not have been wrong right she might she might have been telling the truth that people want to give money about heroes and I'm like I'm tired of here hearing about the Rangers and the Green Brace and the Delta and the seals how heroes they are and all this fine fine they did some stuff right but there are millions of people who served in the military who got harmed by uh their comrades and even just those kind of heroes um that aren't getting the compensation aren't getting the the funding they deserve worth like we do focused on moral injury doesn't get the funding it deserves um and and to be honest some of those heroes when it comes to how they treat their fellow service member are some of the worst people I've ever experienced like I have a friend who's who was a an elite warrior and he's a great guy.
• 38:02
  But I also know others in that community that are horrible human beings when it comes to the way they treat people that are not like them.
• 38:14
  And I know a story of a woman she told me about how she got thrown down the stairs by a special operator who was working on staff because he was hurt so he couldn't be out with the door kickers and all his buddies and he was this walk guy walking around you know angry all the time and feeling ashamed because he wasn't out kicking doors and all she said was um like her job was to report on certain things she did and got thrown down the stairs because of it and there was nobody to report it to because everybody else in the op cell was guys like him right so so the real story is that some of these guys are real pieces of you know what so it's like they're heroes in some ways but in other ways and it's not all operators or anything like that.
• 39:11
  All I'm saying is like there's a whole story a whole bunch of stories that are not being told um and so you know MST is is a similar thing in that um there's there's so much like that people are unwilling to talk about or just telling your story um is is you know uh difficult in that will people believe me will they care how will they look at me all this kind of stuff um and the system wants to um wants to deny its existence in some ways because if everybody that was experienced mst was being due due compensated appropriately compensated it would break the system to which my answer is well don't allow that stuff to happen and we can solve this right absolutely but again like I'm a little on my soapbox but I do get passionate about this stuff too and it's like it's it's again one of those issues that depending on the administration gets attention or not you know well that you know I I don't like to jump into politics or anything but every administration has been an issue in my opinion.
• 40:35
  Oh okay yeah it's a it's a um you know it's not so much the administration yes the administration in my opinion the administration is who gets to make you know the changes and implement them and they're trying but really I think it comes down you know it's a moral injury it also comes down to morals of leadership.
• 40:56
  So you know there's there's bad actors in anything and everything in life right that's unfortunately a part of human the the you know human humans um I was trying to say Homo sapiens and humans humans together.
• 41:12
  I like it but um you know there's bad actors in everything and really in my opinion it comes down to leadership.
• 41:19
  So the leadership back then maybe when you know you had these um these uh heroes uh that fall into that category and the ones that were behaving misbehaving and acting unbecoming were allowed to get away with it right because they still did a job that was required of them so that kind of washed away his behavior and so that is a big part of the problem is that I know I raised two boys and a girl and when I heard that some general or some admiral somebody said well what do you expect we're sending our boys off to kill and and fight combat well what do you expect when they come home you know and and they're treating their wives and girlfriends and and stuff so poorly um well we train them to to be killers you know and it's like well we also can train them to be good responsible you can absolutely fathers and you know so it's it's a perception of is that acceptable or not?
• 42:25
  Right.
• 42:25
  You know you think about how boys are raised and how girls are raised girls are raised to be cleaner and and pristine a little more and you know of course there's there's guys that are like that too and then there's girls girls that are are you know like to be tomboys and and what have you and maybe they don't care if you know their nails are done or not.
• 42:44
  But our perception is that boys get away with it because that's a boy.
• 42:48
  They're just being a boy.
• 42:49
  Right.
• 42:50
  Girls are just being so I think that a lot of that has to do with this um is expectation and acceptable expect or acceptable behaviors.
• 42:59
  So I think that the expectations and accountability is really where we need to focus on is that the people who have those um let them get away with certain behaviors because of that they need to be held accountable as well.
• 43:16
  So it really does fall onto leadership.
• 43:18
  And you know many times even as an E4 I was in leadership.
• 43:22
  So I don't think it really has a lot to do with rank because you can be an E1 at boot camp and you're in leadership, right?
• 43:28
  Right.
• 43:29
  So um I think it comes down to training exposure accountability and expectation becoming and so I think we've just lost a lot of that and it just seems to have gotten worse with reported incidences and unreported incidences because it's accepted and that's a big part of the problem.
• 43:53
  We can't we can't fight fear we can we can create maybe a a an environment where fear doesn't get to dictate The outcome or or how you report or or not report.
• 44:05
  But yeah, so that's that's kind of my thought with the whole um it comes down to leadership.
• 44:12
  It's not just administration as in government administration, it is command administration, is much more, they really are the ones who are can in control of the reporting system, which is not exist in the military.
• 44:27
  So it's it's by command.
• 44:29
  So it really comes down to that accountability.
• 44:32
  Yeah, I I agree with you 100%.
• 44:35
  And and I'm proud of my service in the military.
• 44:38
  I'm sure you are.
• 44:39
  Most people are.
• 44:41
  We're not saying the military is the problem.
• 44:44
  We're saying people in the military, leaders who choose, because you you really are choosing to ignore certain aspects with this under the false narrative that we we need these people too much.
• 44:57
  We can't, you know, we can't.
• 45:16
  You know, balance.
• 45:18
  And not not really about MST, but I was just watching Platoon the other day again.
• 45:23
  I've seen the movie a million times.
• 45:25
  But if you've ever saw the movie, you know, they did some bad things in a village late, late in the movie, and it was sort of like um, you know, that they shouldn't have done.
• 45:36
  And um the one character was, I'm gonna report this, right?
• 45:41
  And the and it kind of came up in front of the battalion commander, and he's like, We don't have time to deal with this right now.
• 45:48
  And so if I've heard it, there absolutely will be a court martial.
• 45:52
  In the meanwhile, you need to get to your hole, you need to get to your, you know, because combat was fixing to happen, and so commanders get into that mindset, and there are times when it's like, Well, we can't deal with this now.
• 46:05
  Actually, you can absolutely deal with this now, and you should, but it's very easy to be like, No, we got all these other pressing priorities, they're always going to be pressing priorities, and but you have people in your in your formation that are committing federal crimes, and so and so, but it's in the military, as you mentioned, it's very easy to for that commander to decide not to take action and get away with it, because just getting someone to report is a uh you know a uphill battle for for very uh all from many reasons.
• 46:51
  Sure.
• 46:52
  Um, so I appreciate that.
• 46:54
  Um I wanna I want to get into the work you're doing now and the book.
• 47:00
  Uh, what is the book about?
• 47:01
  What is what are what are you hoping to accomplish with that?
• 47:04
  What has unjustly served um that nonprofit?
• 47:08
  What what are you all focused on?
• 47:11
  Well, in 2021, um uh I was in California still, and my son passed away, he was in a car accident.
• 47:20
  And so I stepped down from the nonprofit Veteran Sisters at that time and uh was just dealing with a bunch of grief, of course.
• 47:29
  And and then we moved out here to Tennessee, and um I kind of floundered around, set myself up, got myself into the programs out here for my own mental health because I knew, you know, based on my past, of you know, I know I needed support and people to talk to and and all of that therapies.
• 47:48
  And so I was doing a little bit better.
• 47:51
  And then my friend Ricky, uh who's a police officer, retired police officer.
• 47:56
  Um, he's also a chaplain uh in Texas for the police department.
• 48:01
  And um, he was helping me with the grieving and all of that kind of stuff.
• 48:04
  So anyway, he said, Paul, it's time for you to get back in the saddle.
• 48:08
  You you've got to get back up on that horse.
• 48:09
  Your veterans need you.
• 48:11
  And I was just like, God, I just don't want to do a nonprofit again.
• 48:15
  It's a lot of work.
• 48:17
  And like you said, you know, it's such an uncomfortable conversation for most people that it's hard to get funding.
• 48:24
  It's hard to get support, it's hard, you know, to get sponsors.
• 48:28
  It's not something that, you know, Pepsi or Coke is gonna say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:34
  Um, you know, which is which is tragic.
• 48:36
  It really, I think that they could turn it into a celebration of survivors.
• 48:41
  I think it's just as much, you know, celebratory as as any other um hero.
• 48:48
  Um, so so I just I kind of balked at it and I was like, uh, you know, I I'm just not ready.
• 48:54
  And I came up with every kind of excuse I could.
• 48:56
  Well, he he then turned it around and he said, Okay, well then you know what?
• 48:59
  Why don't you write a book?
• 49:01
  And I was just like, Me, write a book?
• 49:05
  I barely got out of high school.
• 49:07
  Are you kidding me?
• 49:08
  You know?
• 49:08
  Um, and so we kind of laughed about it.
• 49:11
  And Stephanie says, No, seriously.
• 49:13
  And the next morning I woke up and God must have just thumped me upside the head and said, Here's the name of the book, and here's what you're gonna do.
• 49:22
  And uh the title, it was unjustly served.
• 49:26
  And it was gonna be a book that we brought stories that I had helped survivors write for the past, you know, seven, eight years.
• 49:35
  And so I reached out to them that day and I said, Hey, to a few of them.
• 49:39
  I said, This is what I'm thinking about doing.
• 49:41
  What do you guys think?
• 49:42
  And there's 15 of us that is the front of the book.
• 49:45
  We all tell our stories.
• 49:47
  And then um I was helping another veteran at the time.
• 49:52
  I also helped veterans with their entire claim, not just MST.
• 49:56
  So, you know, whatever their, I would help them gather their evidence and things like that, how to navigate all that.
• 50:00
  And so I was helping another Marine Corps veteran.
• 50:03
  I think it was with asthma, is always what comes to mind.
• 50:06
  There were a few other things, but um, and he was a Marine Corps veteran, and uh, he just so happened to be a military sexual trauma, not military, sexual trauma therapist.
• 50:15
  He's a licensed clinical therapist who specializes in sexual trauma.
• 50:20
  And um, when I was putting these stories together, it was different than when I was helping them with their claim.
• 50:25
  When I was helping them with their claim, it was one-on-one.
• 50:28
  It was just focused on their claim and going through and gathering all of the, you know, all of the evidence.
• 50:34
  And so you look at it a little differently.
• 50:36
  So now with the book, they had to kind of it had to be more of a story, you had to add more to it, you had to explain a little more.
• 50:43
  But I started seeing patterns and I started remembering, gosh, I remember this veteran, that veteran, bipolar, personality disorder, you know, um um uh adjustment disorder, all these disorders that they were being designated with before they got out and then after they got out.
• 51:01
  And then the VA was trying to, you know, put these titles on them as well.
• 51:05
  And so I was asking him, I'm like, you know, I I I'm just noticing that.
• 51:09
  And he said, and one of them particularly was bipolar.
• 51:12
  And I remember when I was going through the claims process, they sent me off to somebody to go be tested to see if I was bipolar because I was very, very angry.
• 51:20
  And of course I failed, you know, but I kind of wanted that title because I thought that that would be the magic title that would fix me, right?
• 51:27
  If I had understanding of what it was.
• 51:29
  But um, he said, no, it doesn't work that way.
• 51:32
  You cannot be diagnosed bipolar just from an incident, you know.
• 51:37
  And he went into kind of some detail, and I was like, holy smoke.
• 51:40
  So he said, you know, Paula, let me help you write the back of the book, let me add to the book and we will connect the dots.
• 51:47
  And it ended up just becoming this book of knowledge that is insane.
• 51:53
  It it was such a blessing and a curse to have to go through and edit it.
• 51:59
  Yeah.
• 52:00
  The first portion I didn't have a problem with, I do that all the time.
• 52:03
  But the second half, which was so clinical and I didn't understand a lot of it, and I used big words, and I'm like, okay, we need to dummy this down, you know, this needs to be military grunt, grunt, you know, um uh understanding.
• 52:17
  And so I wanted it to be for survivors to not feel alone, for survivors to have their voices heard, for survivors to have connection and to see and celebrate being a survivor.
• 52:33
  And so um when he went in and and did it, uh it became more clinical.
• 52:40
  But then when he when we were able to kind of you know soften it and make it so that veterans will read it and respond to it and be able to absorb it instead of it just being a clinical diagnosis or a clinical explanation of things.
• 52:54
  So he did a fantastic job.
• 52:56
  And it's the first of its kind because it is the actual survivor telling their story.
• 53:02
  It's not a clinician talking about their patient.
• 53:05
  So you see the real-time raw story, and then he comes in and he'll pull different parts of their story and give explanation as to the different um reactions, the body responses, um, you know, life after survival, after the trauma, because you change.
• 53:25
  And um it's just, it's just an incredible book.
• 53:29
  And so once we put that together and got it published, which was hard to find a publisher because once again, the content, you know, of it being so uncomfortable, um, it opened doors like crazy.
• 53:44
  So people were starting to come forward and sharing their stories, which is exactly what we wanted.
• 53:50
  And um, but also it started exposing a lot of things that we needed to advocate for.
• 53:57
  So, and ways of of implementing tracking, a tracking system, a reporting system, helping grow and work on trauma triggers, trauma-informed care, you know, and and education, you know.
• 54:12
  So I ended up starting another nonprofit um to help navigate all of that that was coming out of the book exposure.
• 54:23
  Okay.
• 54:25
  Um, we're running down to just a few minutes left here.
• 54:29
  Um who was meant to read the book?
• 54:34
  In the beginning, survivors and family members.
• 54:38
  So it was it was so that the family members could read it and have understanding of what the survivor went through.
• 54:44
  Um, but it was mostly to give voice, and you know, I also hoped that it would make millions of dollars and I'd be able to give it back to all everybody that participated in the book to have them make money on their story instead of other entities coming in and trying to make money off of our stories, um, which is a whole nother story, you know, that that I had to help protect people from losing their voice.
• 55:08
  But um yeah, so it it ended up being that it's for everybody, it's for educators, it's for um clinicians, doctors, anybody and everybody that has anything to do with any kind of sexual trauma and PTSD, because of course they're similar, not the same, and treatment is different, as you know.
• 55:27
  But um, it just goes into great detail of understanding.
• 55:31
  So it's now it's for anybody and everybody.
• 55:34
  Yeah, okay.
• 55:36
  Um the the uh uh one of the things that you mentioned I I found true with moral injury too is when you're talking about bipolar, the idea of giving something a name, and and I think that people have have found that with moral injury too.
• 55:54
  Like they didn't know what's going on, they knew PTSD wasn't quite it.
• 55:59
  PTSD is primarily a fear-based uh phenomenon.
• 56:03
  But when you when you explain to them what moral injury is, and they're able to say, Oh, oh, I have a name for it now, and it's a normal reaction, a normal injury, if you will, to an abnormal thing.
• 56:20
  It should have not should that should have never happened, right?
• 56:24
  And so if you have moral injury or you've been morally injured, however you want to say that, it's like that's normal.
• 56:33
  It means you have a moral compass, it means you have an expectation of right and wrongness that was violated, right?
• 56:41
  And so it's you know, and so that's helpful to people.
• 56:47
  Um in my counseling is just to be able to ask them, uh, are you familiar with the term moral injury?
• 56:56
  No.
• 56:56
  Well, here's in a nutshell what it is.
• 57:00
  Does that something you relate to?
• 57:02
  Does that make sense to you?
• 57:03
  Is that something?
• 57:04
  And they're like, Wow, yeah, that's um that's a great explanation for what I'm feeling, you know.
• 57:12
  So um so it it's helpful to name it, it's cathartic for people to be able to tell their story.
• 57:19
  And we we did a similar book where we um interviewed the spouses of service members with PTSD, and we put those stories in a book that we now share with uh clinicians, anybody who registers for for one of our uh continuing ed events, we share that, we send them a free copy of the book or see it insiders.
• 57:46
  Um and it just like you mentioned, it's in story form, and then we we include some things, um some takeaways about what led to their moral injury, what were some of the obstacles they encounter.
• 58:02
  Um, so you're not just hearing this story, but you're also like we're sort of teasing out some details uh for folks that are either involved in care or who are you know running nonprofits or organizations meant to help military families, you know.
• 58:20
  Here are some some issues that you if you didn't catch in the story, here's what was talked about.
• 58:26
  So I I see that approach as being uh very valuable uh for people that aren't clinicians, that aren't gonna um that don't necessarily always want to read something that's filled with data and right um, you know, analysis and all that, but just helps like open up the human side of things.
• 58:50
  Right.
• 58:51
  And you know I didn't know what moral injury was until Marshall wrote the backs back.
• 58:56
  We have we mention he mentions moral injury and we talk about that in the back of the book as well.
• 59:01
  I didn't know what that was until until he educated me when I had to read the back of the book.
• 59:07
  Yeah.
• 59:07
  And it's it's very important, and we talk about that a lot now too.
• 59:12
  Yeah.
• 59:13
  So um, where can people get the book?
• 59:16
  How can they get in touch with you?
• 59:19
  Well, we've got a website, it's called unjustlyserve.org.
• 59:23
  And um, because we are now a nonprofit, and so they can go there and order the book.
• 59:29
  Uh, they can go there and find out about the programs that we have and how we still help through access, we still battle buddy up and help them navigate.
• 59:37
  And then Marshall, uh, he has a training program.
• 59:41
  So if they want to find out more about the information of how we go out and we help with uh education, you know, education and training for organizations, companies, workplace.
• 59:52
  Right be awesome to get into the DOD and the military and help educate them too, and just help everybody grow and become bigger and better.
• 1:00:00
  And uh, you know, we're stronger together, and the more we help each other, the better.
• 1:00:05
  And very much, we are very much pro-military, super proud of service, and just want to celebrate that we are survivors and that is something to celebrate.
• 1:00:18
  Yeah, I think it's that's a great point.
• 1:00:20
  You know, it's uh I think people sometimes get it wrong that when we're being critical of the military, it's because we hate it or we're attacking it.
• 1:00:32
  No, we love the military, we want it to do better, right?
• 1:00:35
  You know, if you don't care about something, you just go, well, it's whatever, you know.
• 1:00:40
  But when you when you when you know it can be better, it can do better, you want it to be better for the people that serve for itself, um, you're critical.
• 1:00:50
  That's that's how you you know, that's how you you work for change.
• 1:00:55
  Um, and the military is one of those that um it has very strong borders, if you will, right?
• 1:01:04
  That are highly guarded.
• 1:01:05
  So it's it's hard to enact change sometimes, um, because of the nature of it.
• 1:01:13
  Um, but yeah, you know, it's yeah, but we're used to hard.
• 1:01:18
  So that's right, you know, so so that's okay.
• 1:01:22
  That's okay.
• 1:01:22
  We're gonna get back to being, you know, honor, courage, and commitment with integrity and accountability.
• 1:01:29
  And I don't think it's that hard.
• 1:01:31
  I think it's we've been lazy or just emotionally disconnected, you know.
• 1:01:37
  We we wouldn't allow our children to be that way.
• 1:01:39
  So why are we allowing our military to be that way?
• 1:01:42
  So I think it's I think it's coming around, and I think now's the time, and I think it's gonna happen.
• 1:01:46
  At least I'm gonna keep trying.
• 1:01:48
  Yeah, no, I I agree with you, and I think the more awareness there is about these kind of issues, the more leaders can recognize, like, I yeah, I I went through that too, but I wasn't there was no voice for me.
• 1:02:02
  I remember talking to a one-star general uh when I was still still in the tail end of my career, um, and uh he came and spoke to us chaplains, um, and he and he shared some personal side of his own struggles, um, his own financial struggles, his own struggles with health, his own struggles with the self-esteem, and these kind of things you don't hear from from flag officers, you know, and and other senior officers.
• 1:02:31
  So after after he did his talk, I I went down and I hunted him down and I asked him, I said, I suspect, tell me if I'm right or wrong, I suspect there are a lot of other senior leaders like yourself who are having issues, but there's nobody they can tell.
• 1:02:47
  And they have to put on this face that everything is fine and good, and and there's probably a lot of shame and guilt associated with that.
• 1:02:56
  And he said, You're a hundred percent right, you're exactly right on all account, on all accounts.
• 1:03:01
  So so I think as leaders themselves leave the military or they get in the twilight and they're able to sort of be retrospective, and we have these names that they can they can use, like moral injury, moral distress, mst, whatever.
• 1:03:19
  We have these titles, these that they can, these words that they can relate to, they can give a name for things.
• 1:03:26
  Hopefully, they'll be willing to to give back and say, hey, you know what?
• 1:03:30
  I still have senior leaders that serving.
• 1:03:34
  I'm retired, but I I we're still friends.
• 1:03:36
  Maybe I can have a conversation with them, and that can begin to trickle down, you know, those people in authority.
• 1:03:44
  Uh, because it doesn't matter what the president thinks, whoever they are, it doesn't keep you as a senior leader from engaging issues on your level, even if even if secretaries of whoever and presidents of whoever it's not important to them, it doesn't mean it can't be important to you, right?
• 1:04:02
  So every leader at every level has some level of control they can exert in their own formation, whether you're a team leader, squad leader, battalion commander, ship, fleet, command, whatever it is, right?
• 1:04:16
  Yeah, admiral.
• 1:04:20
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:04:21
  Lead by example, right?
• 1:04:23
  We were all taught that.
• 1:04:24
  Yeah, that's right.
• 1:04:26
  Absolutely.
• 1:04:27
  Well, Paul, it's great talking to you, and uh, I I appreciate you coming on the podcast and uh sharing your story.
• 1:04:35
  I I applaud the work you're doing and wish you great success.
• 1:04:39
  I hope the book does make millions of dollars that you can share with with people.
• 1:04:44
  Um and so you know, absolutely.
• 1:04:47
  Um thanks so much.
• 1:04:50
  All right, thank you.
• 1:04:52
  You're welcome.
• 1:04:54
  See