Latest / WriterCon / Up, Up & Away with William Bernhardt

Transcript

Up, Up & Away with William Bernhardt · WriterCon

0:04
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
0:06
Speaker 2: I can't say don't quit because I end every episode
0:09
Speaker 2: with that, So instead, I'm going to give you write
0:12
Speaker 2: every day, which seems simple, but it's something that can't
0:16
Speaker 2: be said often enough.
0:18
Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Coon, a gathering place for writers to
0:20
Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Do
0:24
Speaker 1: you have a desire to write? Every successful writer started
0:27
Speaker 1: with their first book. All it takes is determination and knowledge,
0:31
Speaker 1: and writer Con can provide that knowledge. Your hosts are
0:34
Speaker 1: number one national best selling writer William Bernhart, author of
0:37
Speaker 1: more than sixty books, including The Superman Wars, and Laura Bernhardt,
0:41
Speaker 1: Award winning author of The Wantlan File series and Shadow
0:44
Speaker 1: of the taj.
0:49
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
0:53
Speaker 2: us today for a very special episode of this podcast
0:58
Speaker 2: because this week wait for it, you already know if
1:02
Speaker 2: you've seen the title, I'm going to be the interviewee.
1:06
Speaker 2: I mean, we usually interview someone with a new book,
1:08
Speaker 2: right and I have a new book. So why should
1:11
Speaker 2: I be held back by the trivial fact that I
1:14
Speaker 2: co host the pod and select all the guests. We
1:18
Speaker 2: kind of did this once before, Jesse, do you remember, Yeah, Yeah.
1:23
Speaker 1: We were live streaming back then, and the guests did
1:25
Speaker 1: not show up, and you and I just wing to
1:29
Speaker 1: conversation and it.
1:30
Speaker 2: Turned out great. So yeah, it was one of the
1:32
Speaker 2: most popular ones we did. It was your incisive questioning
1:35
Speaker 2: no thank you. So I'll be waiting for that. I
1:38
Speaker 2: haven't they haven't submitted questions in advance. I with other
1:43
Speaker 2: than I bet they'll ask me about my book. I
1:45
Speaker 2: have no idea what's coming, so this should be kind
1:48
Speaker 2: of fun and exciting, and especially since Jesse, this time,
1:52
Speaker 2: you've had a chance to think about it for at
1:54
Speaker 2: least I don't know, twenty seconds in advance or something.
1:57
Speaker 2: So Superman Wars writer, ask me anything, dig into those
2:02
Speaker 2: dark secrets no one else knows except my best pals
2:06
Speaker 2: and my spouse. This could oh see her, She's like
2:10
Speaker 2: a super villain there steepling her fingers. This could be
2:14
Speaker 2: the most revealing, shocking, mind blowing episode ever. Not that
2:20
Speaker 2: I want to oversell it or anything, but you know,
2:23
Speaker 2: a good intro brings people in, right, Jesse, I don't
2:28
Speaker 2: know if you realize this or not. Now I'm changing
2:30
Speaker 2: subjects to writer con but I have as of the
2:34
Speaker 2: day before yesterday, when as we're recording this published the
2:38
Speaker 2: schedule for this false conference, writer Con twenty twenty six.
2:42
Speaker 2: It's on the writer Con website. And Jesse, you're hosting
2:46
Speaker 2: a roundtable on audio books and podcasts, great and probably
2:52
Speaker 2: other things we think up. And you'll be recording a
2:55
Speaker 2: live episode of this podcast too, probably with William Martin
3:00
Speaker 2: and several others.
3:02
Speaker 1: Am I also recording sessions in rooms that don't have
3:05
Speaker 1: microphones in them.
3:06
Speaker 2: Oh again, yeah, oh yeah, oh yes that there's only
3:10
Speaker 2: one of those though, So I'm glad you brought that up.
3:13
Speaker 2: Most rooms have microphones, but one is so small it's
3:16
Speaker 2: just silly. Laura, you of course will be handling registration.
3:20
Speaker 2: You'll be helping Renee, I hope, with the pitching sessions,
3:23
Speaker 2: because we're going to kind of, you know, digitalize that
3:26
Speaker 2: this year and try and make it a little more efficient.
3:29
Speaker 2: A couple of years ago, you started opening the check
3:32
Speaker 2: into Thursday evening for those who are already at the
3:34
Speaker 2: hotel early, you know, And that's worked out pretty well,
3:38
Speaker 2: hasn't it.
3:38
Speaker 3: That turned out to be a really good idea.
3:41
Speaker 4: Yes, My plan had just been to be available for
3:45
Speaker 4: people who were new, maybe feeling some anxiety, just so
3:49
Speaker 4: that everyone could meet some faces and check in with me.
3:53
Speaker 4: But we wound up doing early registration and that worked
3:57
Speaker 4: so nicely that I've just kept it going.
3:59
Speaker 3: Really does.
4:00
Speaker 4: And then it makes Friday morning a little smoother and
4:02
Speaker 4: easier for everyone involved as well.
4:05
Speaker 2: And that's what we want. Get the conference off to
4:07
Speaker 2: a good start. Meet some people, learn stuff. Get what
4:11
Speaker 2: you need to know to take your writing career to
4:13
Speaker 2: the next level. All right, I realize that all anybody
4:18
Speaker 2: listening to this really wants to hear is the interview
4:21
Speaker 2: with me.
4:21
Speaker 5: But first the news.
4:36
Speaker 2: News story Number one. Lawsuits have been filed over AI
4:41
Speaker 2: audio books, both by voice actors and get this, John Grisham.
4:48
Speaker 2: All six of the biggest tech companies you know who
4:50
Speaker 2: they are, Amazon and Apple and so forth, they've all
4:54
Speaker 2: got AI voice software now, and they've all incorporated voice
4:58
Speaker 2: interaction into whatever they provide, whatever their user experiences are.
5:04
Speaker 2: So now class action lawsuits have been filed against all
5:07
Speaker 2: of those companies and three others in the AI voice field.
5:11
Speaker 2: The plaintiffs are looking for damages because they say what
5:15
Speaker 2: the AI company is doing basically scraping people's voices. They
5:20
Speaker 2: used to scrape books, now they're scraping voices to create
5:24
Speaker 2: audiobook narrators, and they say that violates the Illinois Biometric
5:29
Speaker 2: Information Privacy Act, which, among other things, the Act says
5:35
Speaker 2: that voice prints are just as unique as fingerprints, which
5:39
Speaker 2: is scientifically true, and so before a company can collect
5:43
Speaker 2: a voice print and must inform the subject in writing,
5:47
Speaker 2: disclose the purpose and duration of the collection, and get
5:50
Speaker 2: a written release, which obviously all these companies have not
5:55
Speaker 2: been doing. But they're not the only ones complaining. Superstar
6:00
Speaker 2: author John Grisham has joined the fight. Why because he
6:03
Speaker 2: found one of his books with an unauthorized AI audio
6:08
Speaker 2: book for free on YouTube. Here's this YouTube video that's
6:13
Speaker 2: got an AI narrator reading his most recent book, The Widow,
6:17
Speaker 2: and there's terrible graphics. Is like thirteen hours of AI slop,
6:23
Speaker 2: you know, footage of fake vacations and stuff like that,
6:28
Speaker 2: kind of the stuff you normally see in the background
6:31
Speaker 2: of karaoke lyrics. You ever do that, Well, it was unauthorized,
6:37
Speaker 2: but over eighty thousand people have now listened to The
6:40
Speaker 2: Widow this way, and Grisham is not pleased. Here's a quote.
6:45
Speaker 2: The thieves and pirates who steal my work and try
6:48
Speaker 2: to profit from it in any format should be punished
6:51
Speaker 2: civilly and criminally, And in this particular example, he continues,
6:58
Speaker 2: YouTube is complicit it because it's clear they know what
7:02
Speaker 2: is happening and refuse to stop it. Now that's a
7:06
Speaker 2: provocative sentence, Jesse, Do you agree with him? Is YouTube complicit?
7:12
Speaker 2: I mean yes, but not a simple answer.
7:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, It's one of those things where
7:18
Speaker 1: if we decide that the places that are the where
7:22
Speaker 1: people go to view the things are if those people
7:26
Speaker 1: are complicit, right, If they are, if it is decided
7:31
Speaker 1: that they have to judge what is legal and is
7:33
Speaker 1: not legal, then we have to decide that for all
7:36
Speaker 1: of them. Right. Otherwise YouTube is just a tool, and
7:40
Speaker 1: we can't expect them for something that is technically free
7:43
Speaker 1: to most people, for them to have the ability to
7:46
Speaker 1: check whether something is legal or not. I would love
7:49
Speaker 1: for them to have that capability, but you can't expect that.
7:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, plus giving it away for free and not
7:55
Speaker 2: giving the author any royalties. Yeah, I mean, we've talked
7:58
Speaker 2: about a audio books before. Some people don't mind having
8:04
Speaker 2: a computer voice read to them, but to do that
8:07
Speaker 2: without paying the author is unacceptable.
8:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the people I mean, it's like, it's
8:12
Speaker 1: not like I guess YouTube is is tenderly making some
8:15
Speaker 1: money from it, depending on how it's monetized or whatever.
8:18
Speaker 1: But certainly any money made from those videos should go
8:21
Speaker 1: to the author and not to whoever did this.
8:24
Speaker 2: Well that's a good point, because at eighty thousand views,
8:27
Speaker 2: somebody is definitely making money.
8:29
Speaker 4: That he's making money of John Grisham's work.
8:32
Speaker 3: That just makes me crazy.
8:34
Speaker 4: But this is really like you wouldn't walk into a
8:38
Speaker 4: store and take one of his books off the shelf.
8:40
Speaker 4: I mean, some people I suppose would, but in general
8:42
Speaker 4: we don't tend.
8:43
Speaker 2: To just people.
8:44
Speaker 4: Yes, most people would not walk in, take that off
8:47
Speaker 4: the shelf and walk out.
8:48
Speaker 3: We recognize that as theft.
8:50
Speaker 4: I don't understand why people think that art should be
8:55
Speaker 4: free like this, you just help yourself. Just just feed
8:58
Speaker 4: this in and have AI voice it for you and
9:02
Speaker 4: then pop it up there and make money off of
9:04
Speaker 4: someone else's work, something that he probably spent a significant
9:08
Speaker 4: amount of time creating. Oh that really gets under my skin.
9:13
Speaker 4: And I personally don't care for most AI narration. I
9:20
Speaker 4: they miss mispronounced things, and the inflections are off off.
9:24
Speaker 4: It just doesn't ever quite sound right to me. But
9:28
Speaker 4: clearly eighty thousand listeners didn't mind a bit. They thought
9:32
Speaker 4: it was worth it to save a couple bucks. Here's
9:35
Speaker 4: if you want to go to the library or borrow
9:37
Speaker 4: it that way.
9:38
Speaker 1: We don't know how many of those eighty thousand are
9:40
Speaker 1: just bots that the person who trade up there did
9:43
Speaker 1: to try to get up on YouTube's algorithm, right, so
9:47
Speaker 1: it could be no real person listening to it.
9:49
Speaker 2: Everything Well, let's hope that's it. Yeah, But I know
9:52
Speaker 2: everything on the Internet can be can be manipulated. You know,
9:57
Speaker 2: we've talked about AI a lot obviously, and there have
10:01
Speaker 2: been a lot of lawsuits we discussed. But I'm pretty
10:05
Speaker 2: encouraged by the fact that John Grisham is throwing his
10:08
Speaker 2: hat into the fray. I mean, if anybody's got the
10:10
Speaker 2: resources to make an impact and be heard picked up
10:15
Speaker 2: by the media, it's John Grisham. Plus he's just a
10:19
Speaker 2: great guy. And here I'm going to name drop a
10:21
Speaker 2: little bit. But I did an anthology many years ago
10:25
Speaker 2: called Legal Briefs as a collection of lawyers writing short stories,
10:28
Speaker 2: and I wrote Grisham. He had published a short story
10:32
Speaker 2: that appeared in the Oxford America Literary journal, and I
10:36
Speaker 2: asked if I could use that in my collection and
10:39
Speaker 2: he said yes. Fast forward six months later, when my
10:43
Speaker 2: agent is actually peddling a book with a John Grisham's
10:46
Speaker 2: story in it. Grisham's agent not please, Grisham's publisher not pleased.
10:52
Speaker 2: Both tried to get him to back out of the deal,
10:55
Speaker 2: but to his credit, he told them both no. I
10:58
Speaker 2: told Billy could use this story, and I'm not going
11:00
Speaker 2: to back out on it. So he's always aces high
11:04
Speaker 2: in my book. And if he gets involved in this
11:07
Speaker 2: AI stuff, and I think he could do a lot
11:10
Speaker 2: of good for people. All Right, New story number two.
11:14
Speaker 2: This is about a new literary scouting platform that could
11:18
Speaker 2: potentially put your work in the eyes of Hollywood. Now
11:22
Speaker 2: let me tell you up front that this involves a
11:24
Speaker 2: company that's called I'll spell it Bodah Sco. So I
11:30
Speaker 2: want to say Bosco, but with a hyphen. Is it
11:33
Speaker 2: Bosco or I really don't know. I don't even know.
11:38
Speaker 2: I went to their website. I don't know what it means.
11:40
Speaker 2: I think it was supposed to mean, like books to screens.
11:44
Speaker 2: I'm going to go with Bosco. Okay, if they're wrong,
11:47
Speaker 2: they can write me it's a literary scouting subscription service.
11:51
Speaker 2: The idea is you pay them a subscription fee and
11:55
Speaker 2: they get your work in front of the movers and
11:58
Speaker 2: shakers in Hollywood. What they want to deliver to their
12:03
Speaker 2: subscribers is a monthly intelligent report on and this is
12:06
Speaker 2: a quote overlooked, optionable literary IP. So instead of just
12:14
Speaker 2: you know, telling you about the latest book from say
12:17
Speaker 2: John Grisham, or something that's probably already gotten a whole
12:20
Speaker 2: lot of airspace, they're going to focus on titles that
12:24
Speaker 2: could make good TV shows or movies but might otherwise
12:28
Speaker 2: be overlooked. And here I'm quoting the company founder quote.
12:32
Speaker 2: Bosco is built on the idea that the most exciting
12:35
Speaker 2: IP that's intellectual property, of course, is rarely the most visible.
12:40
Speaker 2: That the pipeline between a remarkable book and a remarkable
12:44
Speaker 2: screen adaptation can be shorter, smarter, and more editorially alive
12:50
Speaker 2: than it currently is. What do you think, Laura, would
12:53
Speaker 2: you sign up for this?
12:55
Speaker 3: Well, I might like to see some results. First.
13:01
Speaker 4: Over the course of the more than a decade that
13:04
Speaker 4: I've been publishing, we've heard a lot of this is
13:07
Speaker 4: the next big thing ideas, and I many times hopped
13:12
Speaker 4: right in and tried to take advantage of it and
13:16
Speaker 4: maybe didn't work out the way I'd hoped, but it
13:18
Speaker 4: sounds promising.
13:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wondered if they require some kind of exclusivity.
13:25
Speaker 2: I mean, normally, when people option your property, it's an
13:27
Speaker 2: exclusive option for a period of time. But this can't
13:32
Speaker 2: be I don't think it would work that way because
13:34
Speaker 2: they're not even you know, optioning it for development. They're
13:39
Speaker 2: just sending around a newsletter or whatever. Jesse. You listen
13:44
Speaker 2: to podcasts and audio books. Have you ever listened to
13:47
Speaker 2: one and thought, Wow, that'd be a terrific movie. How
13:51
Speaker 2: do I tell Hollywood?
13:54
Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess that's my problem with this is
13:56
Speaker 1: like we are just assuming that they have the ear
14:00
Speaker 1: of people who make movies, and there's no proof of that,
14:03
Speaker 1: so you know, how can you trust them to do
14:06
Speaker 1: these things? But yeah, I've read, I've read. I read
14:09
Speaker 1: tons of books that I'd be like, this would be
14:10
Speaker 1: a great TV either great like you know, HBO type
14:13
Speaker 1: TV show or great movie, and honestly, most of the
14:17
Speaker 1: time it has been optioned already, So you know, Uh,
14:23
Speaker 1: this is an interesting idea of a if there really
14:25
Speaker 1: is a way too away, Yeah to it gets like
14:29
Speaker 1: smaller authors or the really like niche ideas in front
14:32
Speaker 1: of people who make TV and film that I'm all
14:35
Speaker 1: for it. I just don't know who these people are
14:37
Speaker 1: and how they can do the things they say.
14:39
Speaker 2: Right, not a lot of info on their website, but
14:41
Speaker 2: it's a startup. Maybe they'll grow in time. Well, now
14:45
Speaker 2: we would normally turn to Craft Corner, but there's no
14:48
Speaker 2: Craft Corner today because I'm just gonna cram that kind
14:51
Speaker 2: of stuff into the interview if they let me. I mean,
14:54
Speaker 2: who knows what's going to happen. This could be.
14:56
Speaker 4: Brutal, this can be just going to force you to
14:59
Speaker 4: do it.
15:01
Speaker 2: That's us, Laura. She's going to make sure listeners get
15:04
Speaker 2: what they want and not just a melee. Jesse just
15:08
Speaker 2: came from Dungeons and Dragons, I know, so who knows
15:11
Speaker 2: what he could be in a battle mode. We could
15:13
Speaker 2: be revealing secrets buried for decades. So now let's talk.
15:18
Speaker 1: To me, all right, folks, we are very excited to
15:36
Speaker 1: have William Bernhard on the podcast today. William, thanks for
15:39
Speaker 1: joining us.
15:40
Speaker 2: Well, it took a lot out of my schedule, but okay,
15:44
Speaker 2: I'm glad to be here.
15:46
Speaker 4: All right, I'm going to hop right in and I'm
15:48
Speaker 4: going to ask you the podcast traditional first question, if
15:53
Speaker 4: you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
15:58
Speaker 4: it be? And you probably have men, but we're going
16:01
Speaker 4: to ask you to try to narrow it down to
16:03
Speaker 4: just one.
16:05
Speaker 2: You've probably been waiting for like fifty episodes to get
16:08
Speaker 2: to ask that question, having you, and that has finally happened. Well,
16:13
Speaker 2: speaking of Kraft Corner, my one piece of advice would
16:17
Speaker 2: be I can't say don't quit because I end every
16:20
Speaker 2: episode with that. So instead, I'm going to give you
16:23
Speaker 2: write every day, which seems simple, but it's something that
16:27
Speaker 2: can't be said often enough. And I know some people
16:30
Speaker 2: are listening saying I've got a full time job, I'm
16:34
Speaker 2: looking after children, you know whatever, And I get that
16:38
Speaker 2: sometimes it's really hard to do. But ask yourself, could
16:41
Speaker 2: I get up even an hour earlier, or could I
16:44
Speaker 2: stay up an hour? Or could I give up a
16:45
Speaker 2: television show? Or how could I make more time for writing.
16:51
Speaker 2: It's possible to do it without writing every day, but
16:54
Speaker 2: it is one hundred percent easier if you can. You
16:59
Speaker 2: not only develop writing habits and patterns and increase the
17:03
Speaker 2: quality of your work, but it keeps the book in
17:07
Speaker 2: your head and you're subconscious. If you write, you know,
17:10
Speaker 2: on Sunday and a big long binge and then don't
17:13
Speaker 2: think about it again till Saturday, you're going to have
17:16
Speaker 2: a heck of a hard time trying to get back
17:19
Speaker 2: into the stream of things and remember what this book
17:22
Speaker 2: is about. But if you can write, even if somedays
17:25
Speaker 2: or not as long as if you as you'd like,
17:28
Speaker 2: if you can just write every day, it's so much simpler.
17:33
Speaker 2: And think about that. Even if you write a few
17:34
Speaker 2: only a few pages because it's easier math, let's say
17:38
Speaker 2: five pages a day, you could have a first draft
17:41
Speaker 2: in three or four months. Granted you don't want to
17:44
Speaker 2: publish that first draft. You've got a lot more work
17:46
Speaker 2: to do. But still write every day. That's why in
17:49
Speaker 2: the very first of those Red Sneaker books, the one
17:52
Speaker 2: on story Structure, there's a contract in the back where
17:56
Speaker 2: I challenge people to actually commit to writing a number
17:59
Speaker 2: of hours every week, same time, same place, because I
18:04
Speaker 2: think that's so critical.
18:06
Speaker 3: All right, excellent advice. Keep up.
18:09
Speaker 2: Now we've done the boring craft corners.
18:11
Speaker 3: Signing any contracts.
18:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, good, you kind of not without consulting your
18:17
Speaker 2: personal attorney, Yeah, who would be exactly.
18:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you wrote the contract. Is that a contract?
18:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, you need a different attorney for that.
18:28
Speaker 1: So my question, my question is about the the differences
18:34
Speaker 1: between nonfiction and fiction writing. When you while you were
18:39
Speaker 1: working on this, were you worried that it was going
18:41
Speaker 1: to be hard to tell a compelling story using actual facts,
18:45
Speaker 1: with things that actually happened, versus like being able to
18:49
Speaker 1: control when and where things happen.
18:52
Speaker 2: Yes to all of the above questions. I was totally
18:55
Speaker 2: worried about it, not really sure how I would pull
18:59
Speaker 2: it off. I mean, in fiction, of course, you have
19:03
Speaker 2: lots of options. If the plot's getting dull, you just
19:05
Speaker 2: make something up and somebody pulls out a gun or
19:09
Speaker 2: whatever it takes to. But you can't do that when
19:11
Speaker 2: you're writing nonfiction. And I did stay up front. You know,
19:15
Speaker 2: I've written other books that are a blend of fiction
19:18
Speaker 2: and nonfiction, like Nemesis, my book about Elliott Ness, but
19:21
Speaker 2: I wanted this one to be one hundred percent nonfiction.
19:25
Speaker 2: I also didn't want it to be boring. And I've
19:27
Speaker 2: read biographies about writers, including writers that I love, which
19:32
Speaker 2: sadly were kind of dull. If you don't care enough
19:37
Speaker 2: about the writer's work, it slows down. And here we're
19:39
Speaker 2: talking about Jerry Siegel, somebody who you know, lived a
19:45
Speaker 2: long time ago. Superman first published almost ninety years ago.
19:50
Speaker 2: And I really did struggle with the voice, like how
19:52
Speaker 2: am I going to present this? Is just going to
19:54
Speaker 2: be like, you know, cold hard facts. And I finally said,
19:58
Speaker 2: I read a lot of other book books Eric Larson,
20:01
Speaker 2: Sebastian Younger people like that, and thought, no, I'm going
20:04
Speaker 2: to do it like that. I'm going to do a narrative,
20:05
Speaker 2: nonfiction approach. I'm going to get his inside Jerry Siegel's head,
20:10
Speaker 2: even when Jerry is not at his best, frankly, because
20:14
Speaker 2: if you want to, if you get Jerry's perspective, then
20:18
Speaker 2: you'll understand everything that happened thereafter. And so yeah, it's
20:23
Speaker 2: different from fiction, and I thought much more challenge. Of course,
20:26
Speaker 2: it is the first time I'd done it, so of
20:28
Speaker 2: course that's part of the fun. Challenge yourself, do something new.
20:36
Speaker 4: What is the takeaway for readers that you want them
20:39
Speaker 4: to take from this book?
20:42
Speaker 2: Well, you know, short, we can talk about this more
20:44
Speaker 2: in a second, but as I think everybody knows, even
20:48
Speaker 2: though Superman was an overnight hit, and Jerry Siegel was
20:52
Speaker 2: the eye who came up with the idea for Superman
20:55
Speaker 2: and wrote it and got his best pal Joe Schuster
20:58
Speaker 2: to draw the feature. But because of a lot of
21:02
Speaker 2: corporate shenanigans that are detailed in the book, they lost
21:05
Speaker 2: control of the character, and so Superman was an overnight hit,
21:10
Speaker 2: just as Jerry had been telling people it would be
21:12
Speaker 2: for years. But by the time it's on the newsstands,
21:15
Speaker 2: he's lost control of the character and he's basically working
21:18
Speaker 2: for someone else, or he is until nineteen forty seven
21:22
Speaker 2: when he stands up to power and they fire him
21:26
Speaker 2: for his trouble and take his name off the future.
21:30
Speaker 2: His and Joe's names both off the feature, even to
21:33
Speaker 2: the extent of when they would reprint stories that appeared before,
21:37
Speaker 2: they'd color over the guy's names. And how does that
21:41
Speaker 2: benefit the company? To me, that's just spite, that's just meanness.
21:46
Speaker 2: So anyway, you probably know where I'm going with this takeaway.
21:49
Speaker 2: The takeaway I assume almost everybody listening to this podcast
21:53
Speaker 2: is a creative, a writer, or some kind of creator.
21:56
Speaker 2: So listen up. The vultures are still out there. These
22:01
Speaker 2: things still very much happen every day. Protect yourself. Every year,
22:08
Speaker 2: it seems like at the writer con retreat, Laura and
22:11
Speaker 2: I see somebody who's paid some ungodly amount of money
22:15
Speaker 2: to a vanity press, not realizing it's a vanity press.
22:18
Speaker 2: Fifteen thousand dollars. Have your children's book published by this
22:22
Speaker 2: press that's affiliated with a Big five publisher, but it's
22:26
Speaker 2: actually a vanity press. That just breaks my heart every morning.
22:30
Speaker 2: Now I have to wade through all these AI slop
22:33
Speaker 2: email trying to get my money or contact info. And
22:39
Speaker 2: because it's AI, it reads pretty well, reads like somebody
22:43
Speaker 2: who's actually read my book, even though they actually haven't.
22:46
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of other people praying on
22:48
Speaker 2: writers too, which is why every year you know this, Laura.
22:52
Speaker 2: At the opening ceremony at ryter Coon, I start by
22:56
Speaker 2: encouraging people, Yeah, go to the classes, Yeah, I talk
22:58
Speaker 2: to agents, all that stuff, but meet one another, because
23:02
Speaker 2: I know writers are, by their nature sometimes most of
23:06
Speaker 2: the time, you know, introverts. That's why they prefer to
23:11
Speaker 2: hang out at the library then go to parties. But
23:15
Speaker 2: as I get through that and meet some people, look
23:17
Speaker 2: around you, this is your tribe. These are fellow writers
23:21
Speaker 2: and artists and people who feel the same way as you.
23:25
Speaker 2: And there will come a time when you'll have a
23:27
Speaker 2: question you need an answer to, or you'll need a
23:30
Speaker 2: critique group or a beta readers, or you want to
23:33
Speaker 2: what about this publisher? Are they legitimate? Not make friends
23:38
Speaker 2: network to use the corporate term, but really it's just
23:42
Speaker 2: creators meeting other creators, because that can be so important,
23:46
Speaker 2: not owned in developing your writing, but in making sure
23:50
Speaker 2: you're protected. Don't let what happened to Jerry Siegel happen
23:53
Speaker 2: to you.
23:55
Speaker 3: That's just it.
23:55
Speaker 4: The people who come to writer com but at most
23:59
Speaker 4: conferences I've been to, writers are not just introverts, but
24:03
Speaker 4: they also just tend to be really good, trusting people.
24:08
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and.
24:09
Speaker 4: We're easily preyed upon as a result. So it is
24:12
Speaker 4: very important to talk to others so that you can
24:14
Speaker 4: hear about these scams that are going around. There are
24:18
Speaker 4: so many people who are out there ready to promise
24:21
Speaker 4: us the moon in exchange for some money.
24:25
Speaker 3: It's terrible.
24:26
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly who Jerry Siegel was, but of course
24:29
Speaker 2: he was a kid, and he was living during the
24:31
Speaker 2: depression in the nineteen thirties. His father had died when
24:36
Speaker 2: he was seventeen. Joe's father was the elevator operator on
24:40
Speaker 2: a local hospital. They didn't have a mentor, they didn't
24:43
Speaker 2: have a business contact. They certainly didn't have an agent
24:46
Speaker 2: or a lawyer. If they had, the entire history of
24:49
Speaker 2: comics might have been changed. But dead. And Jerry's been
24:54
Speaker 2: telling people for years this could be a huge hit.
24:57
Speaker 2: Nobody believes him until it is. But then he's worked
25:00
Speaker 2: and for somebody else, and he puts up with that.
25:03
Speaker 2: There's ten years of abusive correspondence. Again, it's all in
25:07
Speaker 2: the book. He's drafted in forty three, spends more than
25:10
Speaker 2: two years overseas serving as company, and comes back to
25:14
Speaker 2: find the company has taken over the whole Superman operation,
25:18
Speaker 2: even brought Joe Schuster, his pal in house. They're totally
25:22
Speaker 2: running the show, and worse, they've started a new feature
25:26
Speaker 2: called Superboy. Superboy was a new character Jerry, a sort
25:30
Speaker 2: of new character that Jerry came up with because he
25:34
Speaker 2: wanted a new character that he could own, And this
25:37
Speaker 2: was supposed to be Superman. When he's young and he's
25:39
Speaker 2: in a rural setting and he's playing pranks, he offered
25:42
Speaker 2: that to the company three times and they turned it down.
25:45
Speaker 2: And then when he's overseas and can't do anything about it,
25:48
Speaker 2: they run the script, which they've never bought, they don't
25:51
Speaker 2: own it, they have no right, and that was successful,
25:54
Speaker 2: so they turned it into a series and that's when
25:57
Speaker 2: Jerry decides he's had enough. Comes the first American writer
26:03
Speaker 2: to sue his own publisher to use a common phrase today,
26:06
Speaker 2: to stand up to power. Doesn't turn out very well
26:09
Speaker 2: from him, but you know, elite for him. But at
26:12
Speaker 2: least he fought, and he continues to fight, and his
26:15
Speaker 2: family continued to fight, and you know, the power of family,
26:19
Speaker 2: the power of fans. Those are other big themes that
26:22
Speaker 2: I think come across in this book.
26:25
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I.
26:27
Speaker 4: Was just going to say, you're mentioning this this pivotal lawsuit.
26:32
Speaker 4: I think one of the things that I found most
26:35
Speaker 4: intriguing about this book is that you don't let it
26:38
Speaker 4: get mered down in things the legal cases. But I
26:43
Speaker 4: would say, would you agree that your your legal background
26:47
Speaker 4: come made you the perfect person to write about this
26:49
Speaker 4: because I know you slogged through a lot of documents.
26:56
Speaker 3: Can you talk about talk about that a little bit?
26:58
Speaker 3: How did you decide.
27:00
Speaker 4: What was important enough to go in the book, and
27:04
Speaker 4: how did you walk that balance?
27:06
Speaker 2: Sure, well, you're totally right. When we were talking about
27:08
Speaker 2: the fighting over the who owned Superman? We're talking about
27:12
Speaker 2: seventy years of litigation from the first lawsuit in forty
27:16
Speaker 2: seven to when the last lawsuit ended, which I hope
27:19
Speaker 2: will be the last lawsuit ever in twenty sixteen. So
27:22
Speaker 2: it's almost seventy years. And I couldn't find any very
27:28
Speaker 2: complete or readily understandable explanations of you know what took
27:35
Speaker 2: so long? You know, I used to be a trial
27:37
Speaker 2: lawyer too. I've tried long trials. They didn't go seventy years, though,
27:41
Speaker 2: What was the deal? And I thought, okay, that's something
27:43
Speaker 2: I can straighten out. But like you were saying, a
27:45
Speaker 2: book that's just about lawsuits would be just so boring,
27:48
Speaker 2: and who would care? You have to know who the
27:51
Speaker 2: people are to care, And so I start with Jerry
27:54
Speaker 2: and tell his story, so you know you have somebody
27:58
Speaker 2: to root for. Fortunately, the forty seven lawsuit doesn't go
28:02
Speaker 2: his way. He's fired. As I said, they remove his credit.
28:05
Speaker 2: There's this myth out there that Jerry spent decades just
28:10
Speaker 2: you know, whining basically so not true, and that's detailed
28:14
Speaker 2: in the book too. He hustled like nobody ever hustled before.
28:19
Speaker 2: He wanted to be a writer, and he kept putting
28:21
Speaker 2: himself out there trying to get jobs. He was an
28:24
Speaker 2: editor at ZIF Davis for a while. He started a
28:27
Speaker 2: new feature called funny Man, which briefly got a newspaper strip.
28:31
Speaker 2: He wrote more than one hundred and seventy stories for
28:35
Speaker 2: Italian Disney comic books. He was writing for Donald Duck
28:39
Speaker 2: and Huey Dewey and Louie. You know. Where there was work,
28:44
Speaker 2: he went for it. Unfortunately, at that time, just nobody
28:48
Speaker 2: could make money make a living just writing for comic
28:53
Speaker 2: books because it just didn't pay enough, and he could
28:55
Speaker 2: never get ahead and it cost him really tough times
28:59
Speaker 2: for him. He sent letters in fifty one that did
29:05
Speaker 2: not show him in the best light, to put it lightly,
29:08
Speaker 2: and I you know, he is trying to get the
29:11
Speaker 2: owners of the company's attention. When they didn't answer, he'd
29:14
Speaker 2: write pretty much all their friends and co workers. Eventually
29:17
Speaker 2: he's writing to waiters at restaurants and the bartender at
29:20
Speaker 2: the place they like to go. And the letters are
29:23
Speaker 2: pretty extreme. But even that I get because you know,
29:28
Speaker 2: his daughter, Laura was born in April at fifty one,
29:32
Speaker 2: So here he is. He's got his first and only daughter,
29:35
Speaker 2: who I know he adores. We've got daughters too, What
29:38
Speaker 2: wouldn't we do for them? But he just doesn't have
29:41
Speaker 2: the resources to take care of her the way he
29:43
Speaker 2: wants to. And I think this were happening today, we'd
29:47
Speaker 2: probably say he had a nervous breakdown. And I think
29:52
Speaker 2: the letters bear him out, bear that out. Of course,
29:55
Speaker 2: what pulls him through is Joanne, his wife. Uh.
30:00
Speaker 1: This is more This is more of a hopefully funny
30:02
Speaker 1: question to good Uh uh were there any alternate titles
30:09
Speaker 1: for this book? Because I feel like in the lower
30:11
Speaker 1: of Superman, there's so many things you could have called this,
30:13
Speaker 1: like the Battle for Krypton or you know, you know, uh,
30:18
Speaker 1: the Superman the Search for Justice? Like like, uh, were
30:22
Speaker 1: there were there tiles you tried for?
30:24
Speaker 4: Was?
30:24
Speaker 2: Was this?
30:25
Speaker 1: One of the things for the publisher was like, we like,
30:26
Speaker 1: we like this, but this is what we're going with.
30:28
Speaker 2: How did that all work out? Well? In my mind,
30:30
Speaker 2: it's a biography, so I wanted to call it Jerry Siegel.
30:33
Speaker 2: And then some subcon subtext subtitle excuse me to bring
30:37
Speaker 2: in Superman then like that nobody will know who Jerry
30:41
Speaker 2: Siegel is. I said, well, okay, how about Siegel and
30:43
Speaker 2: Superman and then some subtitle and they said, well better
30:47
Speaker 2: but no, then I you know, we have to you
30:52
Speaker 2: have to make it not seem boring, like, you know,
30:55
Speaker 2: just some writer's story. Where's the conflict, where's you know?
30:58
Speaker 2: So I okay, this Superman Wars, which I agree puts
31:03
Speaker 2: you know, probably excessive emphasis on the litigation, but it
31:07
Speaker 2: sounds exciting. It's like Star Wars, except different. It's the
31:10
Speaker 2: Superman Wars. And then I can't take credit for the
31:14
Speaker 2: subtitle a battle. I wanted to say a never ending
31:18
Speaker 2: battle like they used to say, you know, on the
31:19
Speaker 2: George Reaves series, the never Ending Battle. My editor was like,
31:23
Speaker 2: never ending people think the story never ends. Don't do that.
31:26
Speaker 2: So it's the battle for truth, justice and an American icon,
31:31
Speaker 2: which I thought, okay, that's perfect. So that's where we
31:34
Speaker 2: got to this. That makes sense.
31:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, there's so many there's so many plays on
31:39
Speaker 1: Superman stories you could have used in the.
31:42
Speaker 2: Title of this, but you know that's almost up and
31:44
Speaker 2: a way.
31:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you can almost make it too niche and
31:48
Speaker 1: make it confusing for the reader to be like, what
31:50
Speaker 1: is this book about?
31:51
Speaker 2: Well, and I really wanted them and told them upfront
31:54
Speaker 2: to avoid anything that I thought was sort of too cute,
31:57
Speaker 2: sye or patronizing. I've seen books about other comic figures
32:01
Speaker 2: where you know, the art is cartoony, or you know,
32:05
Speaker 2: they use a lot of poo zap zowie kind of stuff,
32:08
Speaker 2: and I said, please, none of that. Make this a
32:12
Speaker 2: book that had grown up can hold and not feel embarrassed.
32:15
Speaker 2: Make it a book that even if you're not into
32:17
Speaker 2: comic books, you might still want to read, because it is,
32:21
Speaker 2: after all, about a writer, and it does touch on this.
32:25
Speaker 2: It's really this twentieth century start of what's going to
32:29
Speaker 2: become a massive conflict between art versus commerce. And I
32:34
Speaker 2: think there are a lot of people who would be
32:36
Speaker 2: interested in that. Good grief. My mother, who's ninety seven
32:40
Speaker 2: years old, read this book, and I guarantee you she
32:43
Speaker 2: couldn't care less about comic books, but she was interested
32:46
Speaker 2: because it's history. You know, she lived through all these
32:49
Speaker 2: times and she loved reading about them.
32:53
Speaker 4: Speaking of comic books, yes, so I can remember we're
32:57
Speaker 4: just dive in a little bit of personal information here.
33:00
Speaker 2: I can you know, as you're asking this question, Lara,
33:03
Speaker 2: there are all these comic book figurines kind of dancing
33:06
Speaker 2: above your head on the screen right now.
33:09
Speaker 4: Those are yours. And also in our guest room there's
33:12
Speaker 4: a giant Chester drawers that you had commissioned and built
33:18
Speaker 4: just for us that say stuffed full of so as
33:20
Speaker 4: a as a child, I can remember having some Disney
33:26
Speaker 4: I had Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse comic books that
33:30
Speaker 4: I can remember having. Definitely did not make it into
33:36
Speaker 4: adulthood with me, but I with you, I have I
33:42
Speaker 4: have learned the joys of searching for comic books.
33:46
Speaker 3: When we go to.
33:48
Speaker 4: Comic cons and nice conventions that we that we go to,
33:54
Speaker 4: it's so much fun.
33:56
Speaker 3: You always give me a little list, little list of
33:58
Speaker 3: the treasures that were searching.
34:00
Speaker 2: For, and then we give you better deals because you're cute.
34:03
Speaker 4: So well, I was gonna leave out the part where
34:07
Speaker 4: like you'll stand there saying excuse me, excuse me, and
34:10
Speaker 4: then I'll be like I need some help, and they
34:12
Speaker 4: come right on over. They'll come and let you look
34:17
Speaker 4: at anything after.
34:17
Speaker 3: We get their attention.
34:18
Speaker 4: But can you remember what was the very first comic
34:22
Speaker 4: book that you you ever had?
34:24
Speaker 3: Do you remember?
34:26
Speaker 2: You know? I have to be honest and say the
34:29
Speaker 2: answer to that is no, because for years I thought
34:34
Speaker 2: an issue of what was called Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen
34:39
Speaker 2: Jimmy's old series, there's one where he goes back in
34:42
Speaker 2: time to the planet Krypton, and I don't remember what
34:47
Speaker 2: contrived thing got him there, but he meets Superman's parents,
34:51
Speaker 2: and I thought, wow, that's cool. It's like expanding the
34:55
Speaker 2: lore of the mythology. I wouldn't have used that was worth.
34:57
Speaker 2: But I've looked at the date now and it I
35:00
Speaker 2: would have been nine, and I know I was reading
35:02
Speaker 2: comics before that, so I must be miss remembering. The
35:07
Speaker 2: earliest Superman memory I have was And this is really
35:11
Speaker 2: taking us back in aging me. But in the sixties
35:14
Speaker 2: there was a filmation cartoon series first superheroes series like
35:20
Speaker 2: this for cartoons on television, called The New Adventures of Superman.
35:24
Speaker 2: And I loved that and watched them over and over again.
35:28
Speaker 2: Well you had to, because you know they probably only
35:30
Speaker 2: made thirteen and then showed them over and over again.
35:34
Speaker 2: Kids who they're not going to remember? Who's gonna those
35:37
Speaker 2: who were recently released on DVD, and I got the set,
35:41
Speaker 2: of course, and plugged in in unwatchable. I mean, these
35:47
Speaker 2: are the animation is so primitive. Everything about it is
35:53
Speaker 2: not good, but I think it works well. When you're six,
35:56
Speaker 2: I remember being very young and thinking, so, here's this
35:59
Speaker 2: guy who totally unlike me, who is, you know, maladroit
36:05
Speaker 2: at sports and not really very coordinated. But here's this
36:10
Speaker 2: guy who can do anything. He could do anything, he
36:14
Speaker 2: could take over, but does he know. Instead he takes
36:17
Speaker 2: this kind of low level, mild meek role and helps people,
36:25
Speaker 2: you know, kind of on the side when he can,
36:28
Speaker 2: you know, saving him, not taking anything for it, not
36:31
Speaker 2: expecting anything for it, just doing it because that's the
36:34
Speaker 2: kind of guy he is. And I thought, yeah, that's
36:38
Speaker 2: that's a hero. That's the guy I want to read about.
36:42
Speaker 2: I like those funny animals. You read the funny animals though, right, Laura,
36:47
Speaker 2: You read the ducks and the mice and that kind
36:50
Speaker 2: of stuff.
36:51
Speaker 4: Oh, yes, of course, yes, always been a big fan
36:55
Speaker 4: of animals.
36:56
Speaker 2: I didn't like that as well, except I love the
36:59
Speaker 2: Uncle Scrooge comics, And at that time nobody knew why,
37:03
Speaker 2: because none of the comic books had credits, you know,
37:06
Speaker 2: with your pals you talk about he was called the
37:11
Speaker 2: good Duck artist because nobody knew his name until long
37:15
Speaker 2: after he had retired. We learned that all those top
37:20
Speaker 2: tier stories were written by Carl Barks, who is now
37:24
Speaker 2: a Disney legend because Disney owns Marvel and I mean
37:31
Speaker 2: they're in the same corporate family anyway, And and you know,
37:35
Speaker 2: he really did. It's his art is wonderful, but it's
37:38
Speaker 2: really the stories and tell Instead of telling slapstick stories
37:43
Speaker 2: about Donald being tortured by his nephews or Chipendale or something,
37:47
Speaker 2: he's telling adventurous stories. And he's drawing from National geographic
37:51
Speaker 2: to get locations right. And I did like those stories,
37:56
Speaker 2: even though at the time I didn't really know why.
38:00
Speaker 4: You've mentioned this goes back like what seventy ninety years litigation, Yeah,
38:07
Speaker 4: the litigation, but also his story, you know, talking about
38:13
Speaker 4: how did you even begin the research on this? This
38:17
Speaker 4: this seems so huge and it was so long ago, right,
38:23
Speaker 4: How did you How did you tackle that?
38:26
Speaker 2: Well, one step at a time, I guess would be
38:30
Speaker 2: the simplest answer. I interviewed more than fifty people for
38:34
Speaker 2: this book, but the prize gent and not slanting anybody else,
38:38
Speaker 2: slamming anybody else, but obviously getting to talk to the
38:42
Speaker 2: Seagal family was golden. I got to talk to Jerry's daughter,
38:47
Speaker 2: Laura Siegel, and her sons, Jerry's grandsons, Michael and James
38:53
Speaker 2: all gave me great information for the book, and they
38:56
Speaker 2: haven't done that so much in the past. I mean,
38:58
Speaker 2: Laura's spoken atublic assemblies, but to authors not so much.
39:02
Speaker 2: In fact, it took me months just to get in
39:04
Speaker 2: touch with her, and when I finally did, her first
39:07
Speaker 2: emails started. I don't do interviews. I thought, this is
39:14
Speaker 2: off to a good start. But I you know, we
39:17
Speaker 2: worked and I said, well could you confirm this and
39:20
Speaker 2: what about this? And pretty soon she was perhaps starting
39:24
Speaker 2: to trust me and gave me all kinds of information.
39:27
Speaker 2: They have this huge archive, much of which they've never
39:30
Speaker 2: released because they're still compiling what they're going to call
39:33
Speaker 2: the Jerry Siegeal Archive, and they've got a lot of information.
39:37
Speaker 2: And then I started talking to other people. You know,
39:40
Speaker 2: I went to Columbia because you went with me, and
39:42
Speaker 2: I went to a bunch of other libraries as well,
39:45
Speaker 2: went through I don't know how many books. You saw
39:48
Speaker 2: the stacks on my desk, how many books and periodicals
39:52
Speaker 2: and whatnot? Would you say, I rotated.
39:54
Speaker 4: There's no way I could give you a total, because
39:56
Speaker 4: they rotated. They came through in batches depending on what
39:59
Speaker 4: you were working on.
40:00
Speaker 2: Hundreds. But also what I found was that a lot
40:04
Speaker 2: of the fan publications, what we called fanzines back in
40:08
Speaker 2: the day, starting in the sixties and seventies, when we
40:11
Speaker 2: started to have adults who would admit they read comic books.
40:16
Speaker 2: I think they always were, but by that time we
40:18
Speaker 2: had actual fans and collectors and people who were interested
40:23
Speaker 2: in the creators. So they were interviewing people and preserved,
40:27
Speaker 2: you know, in the nick of time before they left us,
40:30
Speaker 2: So they preserved a lot of comic book history that
40:33
Speaker 2: would have otherwise been lost. The trick, of course, is
40:35
Speaker 2: finding these publications, because sometimes these fanzines said circulations of
40:41
Speaker 2: like twenty thirty people. But tracking them down was a
40:45
Speaker 2: challenge too. But it was so spunnish challege, you know
40:47
Speaker 2: it was.
40:48
Speaker 4: And I seem to recall that you had to lean
40:50
Speaker 4: on our librarian daughters for a couple.
40:54
Speaker 2: Of the rights to track down Katie both found me
40:58
Speaker 2: things I can't remember now what it was, but you know,
41:01
Speaker 2: helps to have some librarians in the family, that is
41:04
Speaker 2: for sure.
41:07
Speaker 4: All Right, I said I was going to do this
41:10
Speaker 4: if you were doing a craft corner.
41:12
Speaker 3: Oh, what would you.
41:14
Speaker 2: Say, Well, that's kind of what I did when I
41:17
Speaker 2: talked about writing every day. But since this is my opportunity.
41:22
Speaker 4: To say something else, you don't get to do here.
41:25
Speaker 3: No, this is separate. You don't get to you don't
41:28
Speaker 3: get to use the same No.
41:29
Speaker 2: No, I know. Here's a second thought. Because before I
41:36
Speaker 2: said write every day, you know, do it for months,
41:38
Speaker 2: and then you got a first draft. And I'm sure
41:40
Speaker 2: some people are thinking, what then. Well, the answer, of
41:43
Speaker 2: course is the second draft. But I know some people
41:47
Speaker 2: who never get there, never finish the first book, either
41:51
Speaker 2: because they don't have a regular writing schedule, or they
41:55
Speaker 2: start obsessing over page twelve or something like that, you know,
42:00
Speaker 2: revising and writing. Oh that's not quite right. I can't
42:02
Speaker 2: go on till I get that quite right. Dudes. That's
42:07
Speaker 2: like you know, working with a clutch when you're still
42:11
Speaker 2: driving uphill. Don't do that. Wait until you're there. Just
42:16
Speaker 2: finish your first draft. Because until you finish that first draft,
42:20
Speaker 2: I don't think you really know what you've got. You know,
42:23
Speaker 2: you don't know. You may have some glimmer of an idea,
42:26
Speaker 2: but you don't really know who the characters are or
42:29
Speaker 2: what the heart and soul of this story is until
42:32
Speaker 2: you've got a first draft, which may well be terrible.
42:34
Speaker 2: I always think mine are, But then you go back
42:37
Speaker 2: and make it better, and second draft I usually start
42:41
Speaker 2: making the characters more consistent, more regular. On the third draft,
42:45
Speaker 2: I'm going to make the plot makes sense and keep
42:48
Speaker 2: going and going and going, and just don't be discouraged.
42:52
Speaker 2: Take it from me, the guy who's written, well, this
42:54
Speaker 2: is my sixty seventh published books. So and every time
42:57
Speaker 2: I finish a first draft, I think that was terrible.
43:01
Speaker 2: When did I forget how to write? You know? And
43:03
Speaker 2: then you go back and start the second draft, and
43:06
Speaker 2: it's maybe not as bad as you thought it was,
43:08
Speaker 2: but it doesn't matter, because it's going to get better
43:10
Speaker 2: and get better and get better. Don't get discouraged along
43:14
Speaker 2: the way. Everybody suffers from imposter syndrome, and I think
43:19
Speaker 2: never more so than in the arts, even you know,
43:24
Speaker 2: even people have had some success and never know, I've
43:27
Speaker 2: had some books that sold really well I've had some
43:30
Speaker 2: that completely tanked. You don't know. All you can do
43:35
Speaker 2: is unless you want to write the same thing over
43:37
Speaker 2: and over again your whole life, and I just don't.
43:39
Speaker 2: That might be smarter, but you know that's not how
43:43
Speaker 2: I want to live my life. It's not why I
43:45
Speaker 2: got into writing. So there's my second craft corner for you.
43:51
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up,
43:54
Speaker 1: So thank you for joining us today.
43:56
Speaker 2: Wait, say something about writer Con. First. You're all coming
43:59
Speaker 2: to writer Con, right.
44:00
Speaker 1: Yes, we're all coming to writer Con.
44:02
Speaker 2: And I told them they could come up with the questions,
44:04
Speaker 2: but here I am writer Con. Guys, we got to
44:06
Speaker 2: talk about writer Con. I think this is going to
44:09
Speaker 2: be the biggest one we've ever had, based on our
44:11
Speaker 2: advance registrations and sixty speakers, more than a dozen agents,
44:16
Speaker 2: We've never had that many before, more publishers.
44:19
Speaker 4: And if you come to writer Con, you'll learn how
44:21
Speaker 4: to finish that first draft, or take that first draft
44:24
Speaker 4: and elevate it, and come to all the different sessions,
44:28
Speaker 4: maybe learn how to protect yourself from scams.
44:32
Speaker 2: Yes, make friends. Don't let what happened to Jerry happen
44:36
Speaker 2: to you.
44:37
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Bill, can you tell us, what's next? What can
44:42
Speaker 4: we expect to see from you next?
44:45
Speaker 2: Oh, another excellent question that I think you already know
44:47
Speaker 2: the answer to, because I'm about to polish up that manuscript.
44:51
Speaker 2: The next book, which was actually in some ways even
44:55
Speaker 2: more challenging, is going to be The Batman Wars, which
44:58
Speaker 2: has to do with the very real creator conflict regarding Batman,
45:06
Speaker 2: basically that he's been credited solo to one guy for
45:11
Speaker 2: decades who turns out to have been the least important
45:15
Speaker 2: cog in the process. The primary creator of Batman was
45:20
Speaker 2: a man named Bill Finger, who never received credit on
45:24
Speaker 2: a single Batman comic in his lifetime, never got any
45:29
Speaker 2: cut or royalties or anything, just kept writing his stories.
45:34
Speaker 2: Batman is now DC's most popular character, even believe it
45:40
Speaker 2: or not, outselling Superman and Bill Finger with Jerry Robinson,
45:47
Speaker 2: who also did critical creation for like Robin and The Joker.
45:51
Speaker 2: These guys have never gotten credit. So that's my next book,
45:55
Speaker 2: The Batman Warst.
45:57
Speaker 1: I've got to say, like the was the Battle the
46:00
Speaker 1: Battle for Batman taken as a title of The Battle
46:04
Speaker 1: over a Batman.
46:05
Speaker 2: Like you want that alliteration? Don't you want that literation? Though?
46:09
Speaker 2: But we haven't s Yeah, I don't know what the
46:11
Speaker 2: sub title will be. There aren't as many catchphrases surrounding
46:16
Speaker 2: darkness Batman, Yeah, the Dark Knight, the Caped Crusader. I
46:21
Speaker 2: don't know what the subtitle is going to be yet,
46:23
Speaker 2: and something Well, probably.
46:25
Speaker 4: It is an equally infuriating though different scenario.
46:30
Speaker 2: Right and if anything, probably less well known. Some people
46:35
Speaker 2: who were around in seventy five when there was a
46:38
Speaker 2: big pr campaign to get Siegel and Schuster a pension,
46:44
Speaker 2: which turned out to be a twenty thousand dollars pension,
46:46
Speaker 2: by the way, the same amount that they were paying
46:49
Speaker 2: their secretaries and assistants at the time. That's what they
46:52
Speaker 2: gave the creators of Superman. Just to put this into perspective,
46:56
Speaker 2: Superman now makes the parent company, which is Warner Warner Brothers.
47:02
Speaker 2: Warner Media now makes them about four hundred and fifty
47:05
Speaker 2: million dollars a year, and they came up with twenty
47:08
Speaker 2: thousand for the guys who gave totally fair cow. I mean,
47:12
Speaker 2: there were later cost of living increases, but it was
47:16
Speaker 2: just such a sad token gesture. It just makes me
47:21
Speaker 2: angry just to think about. But that's not where the
47:23
Speaker 2: story ends. There's fifty more years of Wars after that,
47:27
Speaker 2: so pick up the book and read all about it.
47:30
Speaker 1: I'm excited for your Wars trilogy.
47:32
Speaker 4: Whatever the fair one's going to be.
47:33
Speaker 2: What's the third one, the Donald Wars or yeah.
47:37
Speaker 3: Well, I have heard the third one postulated.
47:39
Speaker 4: I guess it's not decided, but I have heard what
47:42
Speaker 4: might come.
47:43
Speaker 2: Third might be departing from comic books for a little while.
47:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Ducktail Wars.
47:50
Speaker 2: That would probably sell. Well. I don't know what the
47:52
Speaker 2: Wars would be, but that's a great title.
47:54
Speaker 1: I'll hand it back over to you, our actual host.
47:57
Speaker 2: Too close us out for today.
47:59
Speaker 4: Okayver writer con is Labor Day weekend. It's September fourth
48:03
Speaker 4: through seventh here in Oklahoma City at the historic and
48:07
Speaker 4: Haunted Scurvin Hilton. Bill and I will be there, plus Jesse,
48:12
Speaker 4: plus I don't know what else.
48:14
Speaker 3: Bill, take it, take it away.
48:15
Speaker 2: Oh, about sixty other writers are A keynote is William Martin,
48:20
Speaker 2: who's multiple time number one New York Times bestselling writer
48:25
Speaker 2: of historical fiction and a great guy. Lou Burnie Edgar
48:29
Speaker 2: Award winner, one of the best mystery writers on Earth,
48:33
Speaker 2: romanticy authors, horror guys, who work in comic books. I
48:37
Speaker 2: don't think there's a genre we don't have covered. So
48:41
Speaker 2: if you're looking to get some sound advice on writing
48:44
Speaker 2: and publishing and agents and everything else, let me suggest
48:49
Speaker 2: writer Con. The website is writer con dot com and
48:53
Speaker 2: the schedule is up now so you can see exactly
48:57
Speaker 2: what's going to happen there and.
48:59
Speaker 4: Somebody, what if somebody wanted a more intimate and hands
49:04
Speaker 4: on approach to improving their writing, do we have something
49:09
Speaker 4: for that?
49:10
Speaker 2: Well? Could you perhaps be thinking of the writer kind
49:12
Speaker 2: of retreat, which of course is five days in July,
49:17
Speaker 2: And that's a much smaller group in a wonderful resort setting,
49:22
Speaker 2: the Cane Break Resort. It's not even an hour outside
49:25
Speaker 2: of Tulsa, and we always it's beautiful, we always have fun. Plus,
49:31
Speaker 2: you know, because the group is very small, we can
49:34
Speaker 2: actually read people's manuscripts, which is the part that's when
49:38
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm being the most use you know,
49:40
Speaker 2: when I can look and point and say, here's how
49:42
Speaker 2: I would have done out of here's what I wouldn't do.
49:45
Speaker 2: And I just really enjoy working with a small group
49:50
Speaker 2: of people like that. And there are still openings of
49:52
Speaker 2: the retreat as well, and you can also find out
49:55
Speaker 2: about that at writercon dot com and everybody. I think
50:03
Speaker 2: as we release this, Father's Day is semi eminent. And
50:08
Speaker 2: let me just suggest your dad, even if he doesn't
50:12
Speaker 2: like comic books, but especially if he does, the Superman
50:16
Speaker 2: Wars has got to be the perfect gift, right. It's
50:19
Speaker 2: a book, that's what Dad's like. I think it is
50:24
Speaker 2: a book. Indeed, it is a book. It's a book
50:29
Speaker 2: you can see Dad actually reading, you know, he's not
50:32
Speaker 2: a big reader. It's a good book, I would say,
50:34
Speaker 2: And I'm not slightly prejudiced at all when I say
50:37
Speaker 2: that this would be the perfect gift for Father's Day
50:41
Speaker 2: or any other occasion. This has been fun. I think
50:45
Speaker 2: next time we should do Laura and then we'll find
50:49
Speaker 2: some excuse to it. Something to interview Jesse about.
50:53
Speaker 1: I'm technically a published author in the sense that one
50:56
Speaker 1: of the papers I wrote in grad school was put
50:58
Speaker 1: into a journal. So is that Yes, we can talk
51:01
Speaker 1: about the use of Jewish stereotypes in the Simpsons, House
51:03
Speaker 1: Park and Family Guy, which is what the paper was about.
51:06
Speaker 3: Sounds very fun.
51:08
Speaker 2: That's that's pretty close to comic books. We got the
51:11
Speaker 2: Simpsons and family guides. All right, thanks for humoring me
51:16
Speaker 2: this episode. Everyone. Until next time, keep writing, and remember
51:22
Speaker 2: you cannot fail if you refuse to quit. See you
51:26
Speaker 2: next time.
52:16
Speaker 4: Bad bad, bad