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How Choosing Identity Over Goals Shaped Jordan Avne's Leadership Clarity · I Don't Know You

0:04
SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm Matt.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm a Jesus follower,
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SPEAKER_01: husband,
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SPEAKER_01: father,
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SPEAKER_01: son,
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SPEAKER_01: and friend who is super curious about topics like parenthood,
0:11
SPEAKER_01: creativity,
0:11
SPEAKER_01: and the tension between ambition and contentment,
0:14
SPEAKER_01: all while living in the distraction of the 21st century.
0:17
These conversations serve as a way for me to hear from people I
0:20
deeply respect on
0:22
SPEAKER_01: topics that I'm still learning about.
0:24
Can you give me 10 seconds of your time to ask if you could
0:28
share,
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follow and review?
0:29
It would be a great help to make these conversations more
0:32
discoverable for
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SPEAKER_01: like-minded creatives.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: My goal is to continue to make these as best as I can and bring relevant
0:39
SPEAKER_00: conversations to you that you'll find interesting.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: It seriously means so much to me.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: Today I'm joined by Jordan Avni.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: He's a husband and a father and one of the sharpest product minds I know.
0:49
We worked together for years and I watched him navigate
0:52
complexity with clarity,
0:53
SPEAKER_01: discipline,
0:54
SPEAKER_01: and a really thoughtful approach to technology and leadership.
0:57
I'm excited to talk about leadership this morning along with
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diving into topics
1:02
like frameworks that have helped him as a father and a leader
1:05
and where tech is
1:06
SPEAKER_01: heading in the future.
1:07
I'm grateful to record this conversation so that we can look
1:10
back in 20 years and
1:11
SPEAKER_01: be like,
1:11
SPEAKER_00: oh my gosh,
1:12
SPEAKER_00: look at those two young,
1:13
SPEAKER_00: handsome guys.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: What happened to them?
1:15
SPEAKER_00: What happened to all their hair?
1:16
SPEAKER_01: No, yeah, you're not going to lose your hair.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
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SPEAKER_00: You have lots of good hair in the family.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, nobody on either side of my family has lost their hair.
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SPEAKER_01: What about your mother's father?
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SPEAKER_00: No, he has a full head of white hair.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, well, that's the best.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: He's a silver fox.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm hoping for.
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SPEAKER_00: Cecily says that she sees, like, some grays in certain light.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think I can see any gray.
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SPEAKER_01: In the sun, in the sun.
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SPEAKER_01: My brother is getting a lot of salt and pepper.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: I think the gray hair, white hair is a badge of honor.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be at that stage of life.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's definitely like the biblical...
1:56
SPEAKER_01: like age and wisdom coming with gray hair and all that jazz.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, my uncle has like the most beautiful white hair.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: And I've just always been jealous of that.
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SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I want to get to that point eventually.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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But yeah,
2:13
so I'm very much,
2:15
all that to say,
2:15
I'm very much looking forward to having time to
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Kind of, I don't know.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: It's always weird when you know so much about a person,
2:23
SPEAKER_01: but then you want to like have these types of conversations.
2:27
Well,
2:27
you know,
2:27
all the questions to ask to get to the juiciest stuff right
2:30
away.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: But then it's like,
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I might just get to the juicy stuff right away rather than like
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leading us on a
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SPEAKER_01: journey,
2:37
SPEAKER_01: you know.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: you and I have worked together for,
2:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_01: years and we're not working together now.
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SPEAKER_01: But at some point I would love to work again.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Just throwing that out there.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: You were thinking about that.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: And seasons change kind of throughout that.
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How would you describe the season that you're in now as a
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father and a husband and
3:02
SPEAKER_01: as a leader in business and stuff like that?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good question.
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SPEAKER_00: It's a busy season for sure.
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We were talking before this earlier this morning just about it
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being a busy time,
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SPEAKER_00: but one of deep meaning and value.
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something that i really wouldn't trade for the world right like
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it kind of all
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happens at once um i don't know why it's that way but it is um
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but just like these
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seasons of marriage and being a father of like three young kids
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and um like these
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are the same years that your career is often the most demanding
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and things you know
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SPEAKER_00: are picking up uh in that direction um but i heard something um
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some research that I'm going to butcher about folks nearer to
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the end of their
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SPEAKER_00: lives if they had the opportunity to go back to any time in their life.
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A lot of men talk about this season of life when their kids are
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young and when
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SPEAKER_00: they're needed in a lot of ways.
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SPEAKER_00: There's blessing in that, right?
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There's a blessing in being able to be in a stage of life where
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I know that the
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SPEAKER_00: things that I'm working on and what I'm doing have meaning.
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yeah well and that's kind of the archetype i think of of guys
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and the stereotype of
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i think like the western american type guy anyway is just like
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needing to be needed
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and sure like working through stuff and sure yeah so maybe it's
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feeding some
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SPEAKER_00: unhealthy part of my identity but no no well
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: I think that's,
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SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: there's the Western American side of like,
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SPEAKER_01: like we need to accomplish as much as possible.
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SPEAKER_01: But then I think there's also like the,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm reminded of like the biblical design of like guys and girls and,
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SPEAKER_01: and I don't know,
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SPEAKER_01: the,
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the differences uh in the most beautiful way of like um what
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that looks like in the
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season that that we're in where it is like the most growth
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usually happens in the
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most times of challenge and discomfort and all that kind of
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stuff too where it's
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SPEAKER_01: like
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_01: you were saying something this morning,
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SPEAKER_01: I kind of wish we were recording then,
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SPEAKER_01: but the idea of,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: instead of going after,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: certain goals,
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SPEAKER_01: it's,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: changing the expectations and kind of the idea of...
5:25
Being a goal driven person to like being an identity driven
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person towards like
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SPEAKER_01: what is the identity that I'm forming?
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SPEAKER_01: And that's not like a cool.
5:34
I like finish this project and now I'm Putting it in a nice bow
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and moving on.
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It's like,
5:39
oh,
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this is a lifelong thing Leave living into the type of person
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that I want to be
5:45
yeah absolutely and I feel like a big part of that too is also
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like when you're in
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seasons like this where it's there's a lot of challenges both
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good and bad around
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vocation and family and the challenges of just doing life in
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the season that we're
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in then like that's also a huge a huge what's the right word
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catalyst for growth
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SPEAKER_01: when when you are thinking about like
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SPEAKER_01: building your character in different ways and stuff like that.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: I think it is,
6:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: if I think,
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SPEAKER_00: what would Jordan 10 years ago think about the life that I have now?
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I think Jordan 10 years ago would identify a lot of the
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milestones,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: Like,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm married,
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SPEAKER_00: I have three kids,
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SPEAKER_00: I've,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: had these successes or failures at work,
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SPEAKER_00: and you know,
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SPEAKER_00: whatever that is.
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SPEAKER_00: And those are all very meaningful.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, of course, like,
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SPEAKER_00: those are some of the most meaningful things in my life, right?
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But I think a lot of the contentment with this season of life
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right now is less
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SPEAKER_00: around I've accomplished A,
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SPEAKER_00: B,
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SPEAKER_00: C,
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SPEAKER_00: D,
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SPEAKER_00: and it's more around like who's God forming me to be,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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I mean,
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a lot of those are because of those same things that I just
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mentioned,
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right?
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Like you were saying,
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I don't think that a lot of the growth happens without
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the you know being a father and the challenge that comes with
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that and you know
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like the the stresses of life and and you know the weight of
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responsibility um but
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the prize isn't that um i've achieved a b c d for myself or for
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my family i think
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the prize is like who is god informing me into what does my
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sanctification look
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like during this time period um and uh i mean a big part of
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that i mean is uh you
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SPEAKER_00: know things just like um
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the disciplines of life like running you you got me into
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running matt you my wife
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and you were the two biggest oh she is she's just like a badass
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woman in general i
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feel like it's i don't know i i i think maybe subconsciously
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part of the reason i
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got into as much running as i did was just like looking at
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someone like her and
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being like oh wow yeah mother of three also just like the
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ability to just be so
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SPEAKER_01: disciplined about like working out and taking care of herself and like
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all the yeah all the journey that she's been through with that
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where it's like
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that's just so impressive to look at no she's she's impressive
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she's an inspiration
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she laid all the groundwork yeah yeah and then in 2024 you were
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talking to me about
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how you were running every day for that year yeah and then 2025
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comes around and so
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my wife's been chipping away at me for years and years on
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health and fitness and
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then I run on January 1st 2025 and then I woke up on January
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2nd and I'm like hey
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SPEAKER_01: Matt ran every day last year if I run today I
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SPEAKER_00: I haven't broken the streak yet.
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SPEAKER_00: So I never actually fully committed to it.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, I never told myself, I'm going to run every day this year.
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SPEAKER_00: But every day I woke up, I was like, well, now it's been three days.
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But I think that's like a perfect example of what you were
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saying this morning with
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: like growing into a character rather than like accomplishing a goal.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
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SPEAKER_01: Where it's like,
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SPEAKER_01: And I've really fallen off the wagon.
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SPEAKER_01: I run like once every couple weeks at this point now.
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SPEAKER_01: But I did run for two years straight every day.
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SPEAKER_00: Two years straight and you inspired me to do a full year last year.
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Which I think like the amount of people that do something like
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that is a testament
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SPEAKER_01: to the character piece of like
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are you going to because when it gets hard and it always gets
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hard like are you
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going to be the type of person that's done and just like oh
9:25
well at least i made it
9:26
six months or whatever which is still impressive sure um but i
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think to your point
9:30
yeah like you didn't really set yourself which is almost the
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best case scenario you
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kind of just like yeah today i'll do it and then the
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accountability i think was so
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SPEAKER_01: helpful for me um doing it on my own the first year was
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challenging and then um i mean it's still challenging but so
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much more fun to to do
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it in in community with someone else who was like yeah yeah
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like let's go for it
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yeah definitely um yeah but no those days yeah you're you're
10:01
spot on like those
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SPEAKER_00: disciplines of this is just who i'm showing up as today as opposed to
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SPEAKER_00: I have this goal of running a race.
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SPEAKER_00: Now,
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SPEAKER_00: the funny thing is,
10:11
SPEAKER_00: like,
10:11
I started running every day and then ended up running two half
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marathons last year,
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SPEAKER_00: which I never would have even thought of running.
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SPEAKER_00: But it didn't start as I want to go run a half marathon.
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SPEAKER_00: That wasn't what started the running journey.
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What started the running journey is I'm just somebody who runs
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every day now.
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SPEAKER_00: And then when I was in that flow,
10:27
SPEAKER_00: it ended up leading me to where I was like,
10:29
SPEAKER_00: oh,
10:29
SPEAKER_00: it'd be cool to run this race,
10:30
SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a...
10:33
SPEAKER_00: kind of a parallel to how I feel about life right now.
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Like what are the areas that I can lean into that I know are
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going to build the
10:40
right sorts of outcomes over time instead of let me go target
10:43
that specific
10:44
SPEAKER_00: outcome.
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SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like every time I've done that or I'm like,
10:48
SPEAKER_00: I want to go do this in business or I want to go do that.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: Like it never turns out the way I think it's going to.
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SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that momentum is helpful to make something happen, right?
10:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's not bad to have goals, right?
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SPEAKER_00: like,
11:00
SPEAKER_00: who can I show up as today that's going to just,
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I'm going to stack gains in certain areas that put me on the
11:07
right path to get
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SPEAKER_00: where God would have me to go.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Well,
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I feel like many of my questions are specifically around like
11:17
the type of work that
11:18
SPEAKER_01: you do and a lot of the goals that you have
11:24
framework for like hey remember that like and I subscribe to
11:29
this and I think you
11:31
just said it so well this morning that I'm gonna steal it where
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it's like who who
11:36
SPEAKER_01: is the person that you're being made into rather than
11:39
and what are the big goals that are gonna achieve great things
11:43
that you'll feel
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SPEAKER_01: fulfilled by or whatever.
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And to your point,
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it's almost never how you think it's going to work out.
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SPEAKER_01: It always changes in some way.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: But I think,
11:54
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
11:54
SPEAKER_01: to keep that in the back of our minds,
11:56
SPEAKER_01: but then also ask the specific questions around a lot of that stuff.
12:01
But I'm curious,
12:02
I don't know,
12:03
over the years,
12:04
you are an entrepreneurial-minded person.
12:08
and have had a lot of ideas uh what's like the first filter
12:14
that you kind of run
12:16
through with any sort of entrepreneurial idea um and like how
12:21
do you tell the
12:22
difference between like an idea that's exciting and one that's
12:24
actually like worth
12:25
SPEAKER_00: pursuing good question uh there is something about
12:32
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurship that resonates with me deeply.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: And you also know me well to know that almost any idea that I have
12:40
SPEAKER_00: on the entrepreneurial front.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: That's a hard word.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: It's a hard word to spell, too.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: It is.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: It is.
12:47
Almost every idea I will strike down at some point in the
12:51
process because the
12:53
analytical side of my brain would much rather find the problems
12:57
in something than
12:58
SPEAKER_00: like the promise of something.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: So you asked about what's the first kind of filter.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: It's putting that idea up against
13:09
SPEAKER_00: at least my perception of reality and saying, where does this live?
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Where does this die?
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Now,
13:14
SPEAKER_00: with somebody like me,
13:15
sometimes that means that I'm too critical and that I don't
13:17
take enough action on
13:18
SPEAKER_00: some of these ideas.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: Or a lot of ideas that you have,
13:21
you kind of have to give it a little bit of life to see where
13:23
it goes before you're
13:24
SPEAKER_00: too critical around it.
13:27
But I think the first step is just identifying kind of
13:32
fundamentally what needs to
13:33
SPEAKER_00: be true for this to work.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: And then how can I...
13:37
SPEAKER_00: How can I de-risk the idea by looking at those fundamentals and saying,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: this is something that can't go wrong for this to work.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: How do I de-risk that?
13:49
SPEAKER_00: How do I work against that happening?
13:52
SPEAKER_00: How do I add safety there?
13:53
SPEAKER_00: This has to be true for this to work.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: How do I bolster that?
13:56
How do I work to improve whatever advantage I have in going
14:02
after this idea?
14:04
SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
14:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a pretty analytical framework,
14:06
SPEAKER_00: but the caution there is if they're too analytical,
14:08
SPEAKER_00: they'll never take action either.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'm constantly fighting myself.
14:14
And it's a reason that,
14:14
I mean,
14:15
there are various reasons,
14:16
but while I have
14:19
SPEAKER_00: I do enjoy the kind of entrepreneurial way of things.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: I've also never started my own business, right?
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I've also never,
14:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
14:29
SPEAKER_00: I've done some consulting and things on the side,
14:30
SPEAKER_00: but I've never really gone and tried to strike out on my own.
14:33
I think a lot of that has to do with risk tolerance and just
14:36
kind of like,
14:37
SPEAKER_00: to talk about goals, like what's, what, why, why are you doing this?
14:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think we're all built differently, right?
14:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, some people like dream big and they wanna live and die by that.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And we need those people.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: Those are the innovators who are gonna push things forward.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of value in that.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: There's also a lot of risk in that, right?
14:56
SPEAKER_00: And so there's gonna be lots of ups and downs and swings.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: The way I'm built, like I value a level of stability.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: I value a level of,
15:06
relative certainty there's no certainty right but i'm sure the
15:08
family does as well
15:09
yeah yeah exactly like especially this stage of my life right
15:12
where um the gray
15:14
hair is coming in where yeah yeah yeah the early grays are
15:18
starting to show um you
15:20
SPEAKER_00: know uh and so how do i kind of find a way to um
15:27
SPEAKER_00: use the energy of that kind of entrepreneurial thinking.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: But in a framework that fits the stage and season of life.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
15:39
I'm so glad because we were going to do this like a month ago
15:42
and then so I wrote
15:44
out all these questions like a month ago and if you had told me
15:49
then like where my
15:50
SPEAKER_01: life would be now,
15:52
SPEAKER_01: like this type of stuff,
15:55
even just the reminders of just risk tolerance and the way that
15:58
you think through
15:59
SPEAKER_01: like entrepreneurial ideas.
16:01
Because now I'm thinking through some of those entrepreneurial
16:04
ideas and very
16:04
SPEAKER_01: seriously considering like going down some of those paths.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like this is such a master class to me and like,
16:11
SPEAKER_01: okay,
16:11
SPEAKER_01: what are the things I need to think through?
16:14
Because I'm not as analytical as you are and I think that's one
16:18
of the biggest
16:19
value adds in our friendship is just like being able to
16:23
waterfall like something to
16:25
SPEAKER_01: you and then you being able to like poke holes in it until there's...
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Be the dream crusher.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: No, but I think that's like...
16:32
SPEAKER_01: Here's the five ways you're going to fail.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: That's so valuable.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: Especially if it's like, well, you're going to hang...
16:38
like your hat on this thing and try to make it work like you
16:42
want the best version
16:43
of success or the best roadmap to try and get there as much as
16:47
possible and I think
16:50
yeah like that's such a I feel like all these questions are
16:53
going to be such good
16:54
like convicting like oh I gotta think about that more because
16:59
of the type of season
17:01
SPEAKER_01: that I'm going into sure potentially so yeah
17:06
Yeah,
17:06
I'm curious,
17:07
like,
17:10
you talked about a lot of ideas that you talked yourself out
17:13
of.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: Were there any bad ideas that you talked yourself into?
17:19
SPEAKER_01: And, like, what did you learn from that experience?
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, obviously, not to talk yourself into more of those ideas.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good question.
17:29
I mean,
17:29
I'm certain I could come up with lots of answers of bad ideas
17:33
that I've pursued.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Most in the vein of entrepreneurship,
17:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:38
I went through a time where I was pursuing kind of doing some
17:43
consulting on the
17:44
SPEAKER_00: side five or six years ago.
17:49
And there were a lot of things that I tried that weren't good
17:53
strategies as far as
17:55
SPEAKER_00: kind of growing that consultancy.
17:59
I mean,
17:59
like,
17:59
I spent hours and hours and hours building out this website.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: I've talked to you about this before.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: It's one of my favorite stories.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
18:05
SPEAKER_00: this website that,
18:06
SPEAKER_00: like,
18:06
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to get it just right around,
18:08
SPEAKER_00: like,
18:08
here's the services that I offer and here's who I am and I'm
18:10
going to go market
18:11
SPEAKER_00: myself.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: And nobody has ever seen that website at all.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: I launched it.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: I never sent anybody there.
18:19
But it was still so meaningful because it caused me to think
18:22
through who do I want
18:24
to be in the market as a consultant and how do I think about my
18:28
service and how do
18:29
SPEAKER_00: I frame this and build it into something real.
18:32
And that led to the types of conversations with people that led
18:36
to a couple of
18:36
SPEAKER_00: short-term engagements that I was able to do during that season.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: And so I think on the way to figuring out how to build something,
18:46
I think there's all sorts of things that you do that don't end
18:50
up having the
18:50
SPEAKER_00: outcome that you expect.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's all part of it.
18:53
You don't want to go do something obviously stupid and just
18:58
call it progress.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: You want to apply your best thinking each step of the way.
19:02
But there's going to be all sorts of things that don't work out
19:06
the way that you're
19:06
envisioning that are going to hopefully yield some sort of
19:11
positive benefit as long
19:12
SPEAKER_00: as you're learning.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: It's really just as long as you have that learning mindset.
19:16
um i mean i know that's kind of a small scale example yeah um
19:20
that that kind of
19:21
speaks to that caution that uh that i was totally uh well that
19:25
you learned through
19:26
that because uh uh i can't think of something big that i've
19:30
struck out on yeah yeah
19:31
yeah and uh uh i usually i'm maybe too measured for for the big
19:37
shots that i take
19:37
but maybe that's an opportunity for growth uh maybe yeah i
19:42
think you're doing just
19:43
SPEAKER_01: fine you're you uh
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Like clearly the path that you've taken has been ups and downs,
19:49
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
19:50
but mainly success where like there's a reason that you are
19:55
where you are because
19:56
SPEAKER_01: of the types of decisions that you made.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: But I think even in your answer,
20:00
thinking about the ambiguity of trying stuff out and being okay
20:07
with failure,
20:08
SPEAKER_01: that's often how you're operating now in the type of role that you are,
20:13
SPEAKER_01: where you're trying to bring clarity to ambiguity so much.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering,
20:22
what has been the process of kind of figuring out how to
20:25
effectively build a
20:27
SPEAKER_01: roadmap or a playbook in ambiguity?
20:31
And I think it's like some version of what you were talking
20:34
about where you're
20:35
SPEAKER_01: experimenting with a certain amount of risk,
20:39
SPEAKER_01: but not too much risk or whatever.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to understand, how can you elaborate on that?
20:46
Well,
20:47
it's one of the hardest tensions for me personally based on the
20:51
way that I'm built.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: I hate ambiguity.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm allergic to it.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's probably one of the reasons I'm effective at times in the right
21:01
SPEAKER_00: circumstances at bringing clarity is because I need the clarity.
21:06
So I'm kind of just driven to come to however much clarity I
21:10
can form because it
21:13
SPEAKER_00: kind of feels essential to me to be able to kind of operate well.
21:18
As far as the manner in which to bring clarity from ambiguity
21:25
and kind of build
21:25
SPEAKER_00: these roadmaps,
21:27
SPEAKER_00: I think you're right.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: I think it is a lot of trial and error.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of testing and becoming a lot more comfortable
21:32
SPEAKER_00: with not having all of the answers figured out.
21:35
I think that's been one of the biggest learnings for me is a
21:39
lot of the heartburn
21:40
SPEAKER_00: that I had earlier in my career was like,
21:44
SPEAKER_00: I keep trying and trying and trying to bring clarity,
21:47
SPEAKER_00: but
21:48
SPEAKER_00: there's never an end to that.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: You never land and say, I'm here.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And so how do I sleep well at night knowing I showed up,
22:00
SPEAKER_00: I gave my best effort to working through these problems,
22:05
And then be okay that things are still going to be a little bit
22:07
open at the end of
22:08
SPEAKER_00: that and finding that balance.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: But I think you're right.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: I think it is just building.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: It's trying.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: It's learning.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: It's having that growth mindset,
22:17
SPEAKER_00: that learning mindset to say,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: hey,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to give this my best shot and I'm not going to get it right.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: And what can I learn from this?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: As cliche as that sounds.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: But I don't know that there's a better formula for it.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:31
Are there like specific frameworks that you have gone back to
22:35
or mental models that
22:36
you've gone back to again and again in that process of like
22:40
getting clarity,
22:41
SPEAKER_01: like specific,
22:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
22:43
SPEAKER_01: as practical as I can be with that question.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: I find myself always searching for the fundamentals in any situation.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: In any situation where there's ambiguity, there's a lot of noise, right?
22:56
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of information, a lot of data flying around.
22:59
How do I find what the most essential pieces of information are
23:02
to deal with to
23:03
SPEAKER_00: kind of root myself and figure out where to go from here?
23:06
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that there's a science to that.
23:08
I think a lot of it is lived experience and trial and error and
23:13
all of that.
23:15
The times that have been most off track is when I interpret
23:19
noise as signal,
23:21
when there's something that is not critical to the underlying
23:26
fundamental situation
23:27
SPEAKER_00: that's going on that I overvalue.
23:30
And so how do I differentiate between something that's noise
23:33
and something that is
23:34
SPEAKER_00: a fundamental kind of element leading to the situation that I'm in?
23:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: I think getting wisdom from other people is a big part of that as well,
23:42
because we're so close to whatever the thing is that we're
23:45
trying to solve,
23:46
that being able to talk to people and get some outside
23:48
perspective helps to ensure
23:51
SPEAKER_00: that we're not chasing a rabbit.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I could drill down on so many of these things,
23:58
SPEAKER_01: but I also know we're racing against the clock.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Short on time.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Always short on time.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: Let me see here.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Let me revise some of my questions.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
24:21
We'll switch gears here a little bit and I'm curious to
24:24
understand your thoughts
24:26
kind of as like a business leader and then also obviously like
24:31
growing into a
24:35
the role that you're doing at work and then also continuing to
24:38
grow in family,
24:39
like what tensions do you feel most between being like a
24:43
present dad and then also
24:45
SPEAKER_01: being like an ambitious leader?
24:46
I think that's like something that I think about a lot where
24:49
it's like,
24:50
how do you do
24:51
both well it seems like a lot of times you have to like
24:55
sacrifice one or the other
24:56
at any given point well when you figure it out let me know uh
25:01
it's hard it's hard
25:02
yeah it's it's it's certainly attention um i was just listening
25:07
to your uh chat
25:08
with david orgill um recently and and talking about that that
25:13
fight to be present
25:14
SPEAKER_00: when you're home and that's a real thing for sure it's like
25:18
SPEAKER_01: You're working from home.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially when you're working from home, definitely.
25:22
How do you build the discipline to kind of be where you are and
25:28
be present where you are?
25:29
SPEAKER_00: It's a huge tension.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: I think a big part of it for me is very practical.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: and I've not cracked the code on this,
25:37
but is really trying to have boundaries mentally for being at
25:42
work and being at
25:43
SPEAKER_00: home,
25:43
SPEAKER_00: even though I'm working from home.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: So there's a certain time, it's an agreed upon time with my family.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: That is not available.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be at work and then I'm done with work and I'm home.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: And there are things that can mess with that sometimes, right?
25:57
SPEAKER_00: Emergencies pop up in either direction.
26:01
but those are exceptions that are dealt with in certain ways
26:05
and so it's really
26:05
like how can I have the mental discipline to even just like
26:09
practice this this is
26:10
something I've been practicing over years and I'm still trying
26:13
to get better at but
26:15
I'm better now than I was before which is like it's 5 30 I'm
26:18
with my kids a work
26:20
thought pops into my head what do I do right I can chase that
26:24
rabbit or I can
26:27
If it's something I know I need to remember,
26:28
maybe I'll run to my office and write it down.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Now I know it's on that piece of paper on my desk tomorrow morning,
26:32
SPEAKER_00: and I know it's not going to go anywhere.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Or if it's something that I know is already kind of accounted for,
26:37
SPEAKER_00: it's just nagging at me,
26:39
SPEAKER_00: how do I have the mental discipline to just tell myself no?
26:44
And then it pops up again,
26:45
maybe two minutes later,
26:47
10 minutes later,
26:48
tell myself no again.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: And that's a practice.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: It keeps you up the entire night, tell yourself no again.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
26:57
And again,
26:57
I've not cracked the code on that,
26:58
but I do sleep better than I used to.
27:03
And you'd have to interview my wife and kids to get from them
27:07
how well I do it in
27:08
SPEAKER_00: the evenings and on the weekends.
27:10
I remember when we first started working together,
27:14
I was sort of going through that
27:18
valley of the shadow of death kind of feeling of just like in
27:22
the trenches and in
27:23
the deep end of really like how do I create mental models and
27:27
boundaries to like
27:29
stop the the ruminating cycles of just like oh I need to figure
27:33
this out and I need
27:34
SPEAKER_01: to do this and I didn't have kids at the time but um
27:39
SPEAKER_01: That would have been a whole other...
27:42
I think my relationships suffered because of that type of not
27:48
being able to show up
27:50
SPEAKER_01: because I was so busy thinking about how to do this job well.
27:57
I think there's times where there's productive rumination and
28:02
then there's
28:02
SPEAKER_00: unproductive rumination.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Most of the time I'm with my family.
28:07
That's not even gonna,
28:08
even if I fed the rumination,
28:10
it's not productive.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: It's actually not solving the problem.
28:14
The way I solve the problem is setting aside time to just do
28:17
the thing,
28:17
right?
28:19
And so I'll even try to do that sometimes where if it's like a
28:21
problem that I know
28:22
SPEAKER_00: I need to solve,
28:23
SPEAKER_00: like can I block an hour on my calendar tomorrow?
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Is that the thing I can run to my office and do real quick?
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Be like, I'm sorry, I just have to get this out of my head.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: And just block off an hour.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: And just know that there's time for that.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: And now when it pops up, nope, that's on tomorrow's calendar.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: That's easier said than done.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Those disciplines, I think.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: Well,
28:43
and I found that even like in taking time away from some of
28:49
those ruminations,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: you actually like
28:52
figure them out more when you're being present with family or
28:58
whatever the next thing is.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a piece of it to me,
29:03
but I'm just curious about what your journey has been with that
29:07
because I feel like
29:09
you are one of the most disciplined people that I know when it
29:12
comes to that kind
29:14
of setting up boundaries to do work really well and then also
29:18
do the rest of life
29:19
SPEAKER_01: really well.
29:22
And I mean,
29:22
I'm sure I'll be going back to you over the years and asking,
29:27
how do I do this?
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Like I said,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: if you figured out,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: you have to tell me because I feel like I'm still early on that journey.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, it's I don't know.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: I keep thinking about like the fact that I mean,
29:40
SPEAKER_01: what we're like 15 ish years into our careers,
29:45
SPEAKER_01: give or take.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's like it still feels, huh?
29:48
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little less.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, it depends on how you define the start of your career.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Like Chick-fil-A.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Chick-fil-A.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if Chick-fil-A counts.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: I think that probably taught you a lot about working.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: I think so, yeah.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: But I mean,
30:02
I know that like working for the places that I did when I was
30:05
young definitely
30:07
SPEAKER_01: shaped me in that way.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
30:08
SPEAKER_01: Good point.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: Good point.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: I concede.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: But like, well, I don't know.
30:13
I think that's something I always have to remember is like,
30:15
we're probably still in the
30:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't know much about baseball,
30:19
SPEAKER_01: but we're still in probably like the third or fourth,
30:21
SPEAKER_01: well,
30:22
SPEAKER_01: maybe we're not even there yet.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
30:24
SPEAKER_01: Inning or whatever.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: What are there?
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Nine innings?
30:27
SPEAKER_01: There's nine.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: You're not asking the right guy.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know enough about baseball to know there's nine innings.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: That's something that we've always resonated on, our love of sports.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: The only thing I know about sports is all through Shelby.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she's taught me.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: I can weasel my way through random sports.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: I know hockey.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can say random stuff about it.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, tennis is.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm starting to get to know more about tennis.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's my favorite thing to just read one headline about.
30:57
baseball or football oh you remember that and then when I'm
31:00
with my dad and brother
31:01
just be like oh so I heard this happen yeah yeah yeah and they
31:04
know I don't care
31:05
they're real sports fans they're the real sports yeah yeah but
31:09
even thinking about
31:10
like the time in general I recently listened to a podcast that
31:15
I was that that like
31:17
SPEAKER_01: I did with a friend like probably six or seven years ago and
31:22
And it was just interesting to hear some of my thoughts and how
31:26
they had changed over time.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: And so I was wondering, like, let's do a little thought experiment.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, let's imagine that it's 20 years from now.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: So how old are you?
31:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm 33.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: in 20 years no right now i'm 33 so i'll be 53 53.
31:44
that's just wild to think about yeah um and the kids are how
31:48
old then yeah they'll
31:50
be in their in their uh mid to early 20 early to mid 20s yeah
31:56
22 to 27 wild yeah um
32:00
like what's something that you want to say to them that you
32:04
would want to tell them
32:05
SPEAKER_01: about like
32:06
persevering in the season that they're in like if you're in
32:09
this growth season now
32:11
of like everything is kind of all over the place um what's
32:15
something you feel like
32:16
you're in the process of starting to learn more now that you
32:19
would want to like
32:20
remind them of as they like maybe start that season sure um in
32:25
like 20 years yeah
32:27
SPEAKER_01: good question that's kind of yeah
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: At the risk of being a bit repetitive,
32:31
SPEAKER_00: this is a bit fresh to me from our conversations this morning.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: So it's front of mind.
32:35
But it is,
32:36
I think,
32:36
this concept of like,
32:40
who do you want to show up as every day?
32:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: Like holding things with an open hand.
32:47
And that being like the metric of success rather than like,
32:50
what goals have you accomplished?
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: Still having goals.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:54
But having those really be secondary,
32:55
like holding those with an open hand.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:59
to to have the faith to like show up every day with god and um
33:09
still target things
33:10
still aim for things still shoot for things but have an open
33:13
hand with the outcomes
33:15
um believing that god's going to orchestrate things in such a
33:19
way that are for his
33:21
SPEAKER_00: purposes right but we still have an active
33:23
role to play in that which is wild to me right because it's
33:25
like the author of life
33:27
and all things is sovereign over all things today but he didn't
33:32
build us as these
33:32
robots to just like go do ABCDE but like as active co-creators
33:38
with him which is
33:39
wild which is wild so how do I like play my part in that in
33:42
this dance with God but
33:44
in a way that isn't so like I'm going to accomplish exactly
33:47
this and you know like
33:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean I don't know what
33:53
SPEAKER_00: what person I know who's had that mentality,
33:56
who's showing up with kind of joy and peace and contentment in
34:02
the process.
34:04
Maybe it exists,
34:05
but I think the people that I know who are simultaneously
34:10
ambitious and content
34:13
are able to do that in some weird way that I'm still trying to
34:18
understand.
34:19
It's like you just picked out those words out of my brain and
34:23
then just shared that
34:24
SPEAKER_01: for everybody.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: It's something I've talked about a lot.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: I think that in many ways is the purpose of these conversations to me.
34:34
Talking with people that I love and respect around these ideas
34:37
of contentment.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Because that is really like
34:42
SPEAKER_01: I've been asking a lot of those bigger questions of like,
34:45
SPEAKER_01: where do I want to go and how do I kind of want to get there?
34:48
SPEAKER_01: And the journey of living into an identity rather than those goals.
34:55
And I think I've always been such a goal-driven,
34:57
productive-driven person.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: And the irony of that is the more I wanted to do that,
35:05
SPEAKER_01: the harder it has been to achieve those types of goals.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: I think just by virtue of the types of expectations you set for yourself.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think you hit it on the head.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: How to be a person of peace that people just kind of see and they...
35:22
SPEAKER_01: And I want to make sure I'm not on the slippery slope of like,
35:25
SPEAKER_01: oh,
35:25
I need to be a person of peace so that people see me being a
35:28
person of peace.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: But like,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
35:33
SPEAKER_01: how do you do that well and find contentment,
35:35
SPEAKER_01: but also like work really hard and be ambitious in the right way.
35:40
Yeah,
35:42
it's just these are the types of conversations that are so
35:46
helpful to me.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: And I know that
35:48
SPEAKER_01: Like journaling for me,
35:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to look back on these and be like,
35:51
SPEAKER_01: oh,
35:52
that was so good what you said right there about thinking
35:55
through this framework
35:57
SPEAKER_01: that he uses to,
35:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
35:58
SPEAKER_01: it'll be a good reminder.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: So much of life, I feel like, is just reminding myself.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Well,
36:03
it'll also be fun to listen to this in 20 years and see all the
36:06
ways that I
36:07
SPEAKER_00: disagree with the things that I'm saying now.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:11
speak to the whole kind of like goal driven piece and maybe
36:18
this is a personality
36:19
thing I don't know if this is a universal truth maybe this is
36:21
just a personality
36:21
thing for me I've found that the seasons of my life where I'm
36:25
the most motivated by
36:28
a specific tangible goal it's much harder for me to sustain the
36:33
motivation in that
36:35
than the seasons in life where I'm holding that more loosely
36:38
and I'm just focused
36:41
SPEAKER_00: on
36:43
SPEAKER_00: What do I need to do today to be who I want to be?
36:47
SPEAKER_00: And still driving for the larger,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: but how is it for me to get out of bed this morning and go do the thing?
36:54
SPEAKER_00: And when there's a goal that's out there,
36:58
SPEAKER_00: and then there's a setback toward that goal,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: and that's like my entire identity is built around achieving this goal,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: and now it's looking harder,
37:05
SPEAKER_00: or the timeline is going to be longer,
37:06
SPEAKER_00: or it's not going to be exactly the way that I imagined.
37:10
My world can start to crumble around that because I built my
37:12
world around this goal
37:13
SPEAKER_00: is the thing that needs to happen.
37:15
And I think there's freedom in not having a goal be like a God
37:22
that we're serving.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: All right.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: Time to wrap.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Time to land the plane.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: I can't wrap.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: That was good.
37:34
This is a question from our last guest and I think it's a good
37:39
one and I'm curious
37:40
SPEAKER_01: to get your thoughts on it.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: When you were a child,
37:44
what was a form of creativity that you used to freely create in
37:48
and do you want to
37:50
SPEAKER_01: get back to that?
37:54
SPEAKER_00: That's a hard question for me.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: A form of creativity, I think you can be very loose with that.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: How would you interpret that?
38:05
SPEAKER_00: It's funny,
38:05
the first thought that comes to mind is not something you would
38:10
traditionally think
38:11
SPEAKER_00: of as creative,
38:12
SPEAKER_00: but I think it is.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: And it's actually the type of video games that I was drawn to as a kid.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: And this is going to really make me look really cool on your podcast,
38:22
SPEAKER_00: that these business simulation games...
38:25
SPEAKER_01: Like The Sims or something?
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Like Rollercoaster Tycoon.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: Rollercoaster Tycoon.
38:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, don't call it a business simulation game.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: But it was to me.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: That's actually why it was interesting to me.
38:36
It's like,
38:37
what are the levers that I can pull here to try to make this
38:40
thing succeed?
38:41
SPEAKER_01: When my guests in the park vomit too much, I put them on Lion Island.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: But I showed up to Career Day in fifth grade as a theme park owner.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
38:50
manager like that was like the dream at the time was like how
38:54
to create these
38:54
experiences for people yeah yeah um and uh i think that would
38:59
be fun not not to go
39:00
play video games again but to be in the realm of like
39:03
creatively how do i build
39:05
experiences for people yeah that's not something that i like
39:08
physical experiences
39:10
yeah yeah i think it could be interpreted a bunch of different
39:12
ways but i haven't
39:13
SPEAKER_00: really thought much about
39:15
file that back in my mind because that sounds cool to do
39:18
something together maybe
39:19
maybe and this question would be the genesis because i haven't
39:22
really thought about
39:23
that in a while yeah well i think that's the beauty of it is
39:26
like i i don't know
39:28
how often are we thinking about our childhoods from that
39:31
perspective we're usually
39:32
thinking about the deep dark trauma that happened that shapes
39:35
us in the way that we
39:36
exactly make decisions or lack thereof is wait so when did you
39:42
do that was that
39:42
SPEAKER_01: like
39:43
SPEAKER_01: A little bit older than Micah?
39:45
SPEAKER_01: Or, like, can he get into Roller Coaster Tycoon now?
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, probably.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: And Zoo Tycoon?
39:50
SPEAKER_01: Zoo Tycoon was also very fun.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just remember I would...
39:54
SPEAKER_01: Like,
39:56
SPEAKER_01: if the guests were misbehaving or whatever,
39:58
then I would pick them up and put them on an island with a
40:01
bunch of lions.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: In a lion enclosure.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: And it's not like the lions would eat them or anything.
40:05
Or just build on the rollercoaster tycoon,
40:07
build the rollercoaster to crash.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
40:11
that was kind of crazy that they actually like emulated that
40:13
and had like a little
40:14
SPEAKER_01: explosion.
40:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
40:15
SPEAKER_01: The guests would just stand up and walk away.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: Such a fun thing.
40:22
take an afternoon and play something I wonder how well they
40:25
would hold up over time
40:27
yeah I mean the graphics are probably not amazing but that was
40:30
never why you played
40:31
it anyway yeah yeah if you could ask a question of our next
40:35
guest what would it be
40:36
see I had time to think about this because I knew this question
40:39
was coming and I
40:39
SPEAKER_00: still don't have one yet so let me let me find one
40:47
What is an idea or a belief that you held very confidently at
40:54
some point in your
40:54
life that you now believe is wrong or inconsistent in how you
41:00
view the world?
41:00
SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how I'd answer it, so good luck.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: I was going to ask you, how would you answer it?
41:09
SPEAKER_01: But that's the beauty of these questions.