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Stendhal Syndrome · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: curating host, Abraham, and I am your art critic host Shane.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk all about the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: things that people and animals do, and sometimes we talk
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  Speaker 1: about the feelings that we get, the movements that we
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: feel when we're looking at the products of human creativity.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so today we are talking about a thing called
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  Speaker 2: Stendall syndrome, which is effectively when you have a panic
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  Speaker 2: attack when you look at art.
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  Speaker 1: Fun If you're joining us for the first time, then welcome.
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  Speaker 2: I like that. It's Museum Selfie Day.
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  Speaker 1: Oh what a coincidence that we're talking about this on
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  Speaker 1: museums selfie Day.
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  Speaker 1: Hey, that's a good one.
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  Speaker 1: Okay aware. Relatedly, probably it is sugar Awareness Week.
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  Speaker 2: Hmmm. And it is Universal Letter Writing Week.
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  Speaker 1: Huh. All right, so given the post office a little business,
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  Speaker 1: I guess sure. All right, Well, the days of the
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  Speaker 1: week are fun, but that is not actually why we're
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  Speaker 1: primarily here to do this. We are here because we
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  Speaker 1: are going to be talking about a specific topic inside
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: of psychology. That's what we would probably want to do
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: on a psychology podcast anyway. More generally speaking, that's enough
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  Speaker 1: for preamble. Unless there's anything that I forgot, I think
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  Speaker 1: have covered all the things before we get into our topic.
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  Speaker 2: I think we can just dive right in.
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  Speaker 1: Beautiful. All right, Well, let's begin by describing what it
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  Speaker 1: is we're talking about. As you had said, we're talking
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  Speaker 1: about this thing called stend All syndrome, also lovingly called
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  Speaker 1: an art attack, which refers to quote a collection of
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  Speaker 1: intense physical and mental symptoms. You may experience while or
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  Speaker 1: after viewing a work of art end quote via artiac arrest.
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  Speaker 1: Is what we're talking about here, is that emotional feeling
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  Speaker 1: we get when we look at a work of our
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  Speaker 1: and are just so moved. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So, as of twenty twenty one, this experience, it falls
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  Speaker 2: under the category of psychosomatics disorders. Or put another way,
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  Speaker 2: physical symptoms may be a result of distress or stress,
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  Speaker 2: so psychosomatic disorders occur when someone has no physical cause
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  Speaker 2: for physical symptoms, like getting a fever when you have
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  Speaker 2: no infection or virus or something like that. Now, the
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  Speaker 2: term psychosomatic comes from the word Greek psyche, meaning mind
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  Speaker 2: and soma, meaning body, and the word psychosintematic was first
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  Speaker 2: used by Johann Heinroth in eighteen eighteen to describe the
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  Speaker 2: mind body relationship and how the two are inextricably linked.
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  Speaker 1: So it's mind body symptoms is what we're dealing with here, Yes, okay,
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  Speaker 1: very good. So this syndrome, the Stendall syndrome, was originally
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  Speaker 1: described in nineteen eighty nine, so this is fairly recent
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  Speaker 1: and sort of the history of syndromes. As you might think,
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  Speaker 1: we're only talking about than forty years ago now thirty
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  Speaker 1: six years ago by an Italian psychiatrist named Graziella Margharini yep,
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  Speaker 1: Ziella Margharini, and has also been cult Sorry, I'm sorry
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  Speaker 1: Italian listeners. I'll try and say an American version. Grauziella
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  Speaker 1: Margharini has also been called Florentine syndrome in some instances,
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  Speaker 1: and originally this name came from the city that Margarini
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  Speaker 1: was practicing in, specifically from the hospital she worked in
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  Speaker 1: in which she treated over a hundred patients with similar
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  Speaker 1: art related experiences, the sort of seizing up an extreme
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  Speaker 1: emotional reaction to these paintings or are the other works
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  Speaker 1: of art? I guess it doesn't have to be paintings.
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  Speaker 1: But another term that was also used through this research
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  Speaker 1: was esthetic sickness, which makes some amount of sense with
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  Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, this viscerule, if you will.
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  Speaker 1: I keep using that word, but.
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  Speaker 2: You know what I mean, it's a good it's a
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  Speaker 2: good word for it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I like it, but you know, I guess
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  Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is an int hence almost
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  Speaker 1: tangible feeling level of reaction to something that seems maybe
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  Speaker 1: out of place with what you might expect as being
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  Speaker 1: on the reasonable spectrum of emotional reactions to art. One
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  Speaker 1: that is that severe seems potentially maybe problematic at least
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  Speaker 1: disconcerting to the casual viewer of someone who is looking
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  Speaker 1: at this art and you're sort of saying, like, Wow,
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  Speaker 1: what's going on over there?
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  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
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  Speaker 1: Like, that's why I'd probably weren't be worth spending time
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  Speaker 1: trying to talk about an unpack as this occurred for
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  Speaker 1: Graziella in her journeys.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have a question for you before we
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  Speaker 2: get into kind of like the next big part of this.
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  Speaker 2: Have you ever gone to a museum and had like
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  Speaker 2: an emotional reaction to some piece of work, some art,
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  Speaker 2: something that you've seen with your own eyes. Have you
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  Speaker 2: had like some any sort of emotional reaction or something like.
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  Speaker 1: That, any sort. Yes, not one that was particularly intensive,
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  Speaker 1: but like I got to walk around some parts of
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  Speaker 1: the Smithsonian and go to some of the museums there
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  Speaker 1: where they have a lot of art, and some of
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  Speaker 1: the feelings I had were just some awe right, like
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  Speaker 1: this is really impressive, Like the amount of time and
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  Speaker 1: dedication and skill it would take to produce something like
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  Speaker 1: this just seems outside of the realm of what I
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  Speaker 1: would normally expect in the spectrum of like human competency. Sure,
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  Speaker 1: it's just so impressive and well done, or like I
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  Speaker 1: look at it and I think that was such a
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  Speaker 1: creative idea, Like I would have never come up with that,
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  Speaker 1: even if I don't think it was particular it was
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  Speaker 1: executed with any particular flare of skill, at least beyond
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  Speaker 1: what I could do. But I can look at it
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  Speaker 1: and appreciate like that was such a unique way to
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  Speaker 1: approach this artistically. So I've had those sorts of reactions,
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  Speaker 1: but not something so intense.
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  Speaker 2: What about you, Yeah, I mean I think I've had
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  Speaker 2: the same experience. I think I've had a stronger reaction
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  Speaker 2: to artists that I have looked forward to seeing, like
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  Speaker 2: or like well known artists, Like there is like a
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  Speaker 2: certain awe to that, Like there's the Dolly Museum here
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  Speaker 2: in Florida, which is pretty incredible, and we'll talk about
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  Speaker 2: salvoour Dolly a little bit later, but like seeing you know,
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  Speaker 2: free to Callo paintings and Pacasto paintings and stuff like that,
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  Speaker 2: like stuff that you like, know that are like well
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  Speaker 2: known pieces or well known artists is always really cool. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: Like I had that kind of like wow, like this
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  Speaker 2: is like a one of a kind, This is this
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  Speaker 2: one person who has done this thing. And I've had
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  Speaker 2: those types of experiences, but never anything to the level
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  Speaker 2: of Sendall syndrome that we're going to talk about.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've had slightly more intense reactions when
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  Speaker 1: seeing mummies because I'm like, wow, that was a human
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  Speaker 1: being like thousands of years ago, right, and actually to
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  Speaker 1: that point, super old art I've had probably a more
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  Speaker 1: intensive reaction to and just thinking about like how long
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  Speaker 1: ago that was the product of someone's creative work that
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  Speaker 1: I'm like getting to see right now, you know, hundreds
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  Speaker 1: of years later or something. But I would say the
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  Speaker 1: closest I've gotten to what this is sort of depicting
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  Speaker 1: is in music. I think I've had much more sort
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  Speaker 1: of intensive emotional feelings to music that I've heard than
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  Speaker 1: I have to just viewing some piece of art, although again,
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  Speaker 1: like I can certainly love and appreciate the art that
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  Speaker 1: I've seen, just not as you've sort of alluded here to,
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  Speaker 1: is this idea of the syndrome, like to it being
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  Speaker 1: like my emotion was not noteworthy. I guess the right.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't going to put you in a hospital.
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  Speaker 1: No, no, or like, have anyone look at me and
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  Speaker 1: be like, well, that's a little uh overly dramatic, you think.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've had multiple instances where
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  Speaker 2: I've had like that emotional reaction, especially to music. But
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  Speaker 2: I know for a fact that I've never had any
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  Speaker 2: sort of like emotional reaction to hearing it. So we're
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  Speaker 2: talking about this idea of Stendall syndrome, also known as
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  Speaker 2: Florentine syndrome, also known as aesthetic sickness and Stendall syndrome
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  Speaker 2: was named after the pseudonym of Mary Henry Bailee, a
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  Speaker 2: nineteenth century French author, and during his visit to Florence,
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  Speaker 2: he described specific emotional experiences related to the works of Machiavelli, Michelangelo,
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  Speaker 2: and the other Ninja Turtles. And here's what he had
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  Speaker 2: to say about this. So he said, quote, I was
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  Speaker 2: in a sort of ecstasy from the beginning of being
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  Speaker 2: in Florence, close to the great men whose tombs I
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  Speaker 2: had seen. Absorbed in the contemplation of sublime beauty, I
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  Speaker 2: reached the point where one encounters celestial sensations. Everything spoke
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  Speaker 2: so vividly to my soul. Ah, if I could only forget,
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  Speaker 2: I had palpitations of the heart what in Berlin they
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  Speaker 2: called the nerves. Life was drained from me. I walked
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  Speaker 2: with fear of falling end quote. So he had this
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  Speaker 2: really intense reaction to the names that we know, right, So, Machiabelly,
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  Speaker 2: Michelangelo in Florence, Italy, in a place that is renowned
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  Speaker 2: for art, and that's going to be all of that
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  Speaker 2: stuff that he traveled to this place to go see
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  Speaker 2: this art from well known artists. That's gonna be really
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  Speaker 2: important as we kind of unpack this further.
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  Speaker 1: Fair also little to do in the nineteenth century. So
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  Speaker 1: maybe looking at art is like the highlight of your life.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, But that's okay, no judgment. It is what
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  Speaker 1: it is, Yeah, okay. So researchers suggest that the syndrome
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  Speaker 1: the Stendall syndrome, which by the way, we should probably
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  Speaker 1: spell here. Obviously syndrome is not uniquely spelled, but Stendall
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  Speaker 1: is ste n dha l. It looks like maybe if
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: you're really trying to pronounce it phonetically, you might say
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  Speaker 1: Stendhall or how anyway, just for people who are trying
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  Speaker 1: to imagine what we were saying. Yeah, so, yeah, the
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  Speaker 1: syndrome develops as a result of encountering or observing some
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  Speaker 1: overwhelmingly beautiful or at least you're interpreting it, beautiful piece
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  Speaker 1: of art. But this is importantly differentiated from the experience
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  Speaker 1: of just like observing something in nature or maybe something
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  Speaker 1: where you maybe it's like a social gathering of some
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  Speaker 1: sort like burning Man, right, maybe a good example, and
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  Speaker 1: then having some some powerful emotional response to those and
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  Speaker 1: like I can definitely I've had some much more intensive
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  Speaker 1: reactions when you know, looking over a large mountain vista,
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  Speaker 1: like you've hiked all this way and you're like the
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  Speaker 1: top of a hike and you're looking down over this
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  Speaker 1: huge landscape that's stretching out for miles and miles below you,
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  Speaker 1: and having an appreciation for the scale of everything and
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  Speaker 1: just sort of how you minute you seem in that space.
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  Speaker 1: And that's different than the experiencing the experience that people
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  Speaker 1: are having here where they're seeing some just creative work,
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  Speaker 1: some piece of art that's something someone has made and
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  Speaker 1: having that intense reaction to it.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So let's say you walk into the Dolli Museum
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  Speaker 2: and down to in Saint Petersburg, Florida, which is down south.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Saint Petersburg's very cool city. The Dolly Museum specifically, it's
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  Speaker 2: Salvador Dolly's collected works. Super interesting, super fascinating stuff. You
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  Speaker 2: walk into one of the open galleries and you see
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  Speaker 2: the painting called Gala Contemplating the Mediterranean Sea, which at
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  Speaker 2: twenty meters becomes the portrait of Abraham Lincoln homage to
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  Speaker 2: Rothco second version. Just a name that just rolls off
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  Speaker 2: the tongue. I love that. So for those of you
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  Speaker 2: who don't know, the painting is about eight feet by
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  Speaker 2: six feet. It's huge and as you get close it
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  Speaker 2: takes up the entire frame of your vision. It's beautiful
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  Speaker 2: and basically what it is, it's a woman looking out
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  Speaker 2: and like actually looking at the sea. But as you
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  Speaker 2: get back it looks like a pixelated version of Abraham Lincoln.
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  Speaker 2: So like it's a really incredible bit of work, and
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: it's not one of his I would say, like what
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: he's known for, he's ten. He tends to be known
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: for the surrealist stuff, the melting clocks, the really tall
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  Speaker 2: elephants and stuff like that. And this is just a
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  Speaker 2: really cool, very fascinating painting in his collection that just
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  Speaker 2: it blows your mind when you see it. It's because
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  Speaker 2: it's just the scope, in the in the breadth of
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: this work is pretty impressive.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I had never seen anything like this before, and
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  Speaker 1: it is, uh, it takes a while to sort of
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  Speaker 1: take it all in and feel like you're even really
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  Speaker 1: getting what's happening in the picture, right, You just kind
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  Speaker 1: of have to keep looking at it and inspecting the
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  Speaker 1: different elements. I had not seen this before. You noted
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  Speaker 1: this here, but yeah, that's an interesting one.
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  Speaker 2: It's and when you see it, you go, Okay, that's
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  Speaker 2: pretty impressive. But then when you realize it's eight feet tall,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: you go, wow, Like that's a whole, that whole, nother
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  Speaker 2: level of that. Like that's why I think, that's why
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  Speaker 2: I think going to museums and seeing art in person
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: is so important, because like you don't realize that something
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: like Starry Night is like the size of a small book.
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  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Yeah, this is less a piece of art
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: and moral a mural. Yeah, absolutely, like less a less
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: a painting and more a mural. Like it's so that's
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: so big.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
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  Speaker 1: So as you look at this paint, you may start
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  Speaker 1: to notice that you are feeling dizzy, you have shortness
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  Speaker 1: of breath, you might start sweating, experiencing chest pains, may
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: even feel like fainting. Are you having a panic attack? Well,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: it might feel like that. This describes the experience that
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: many folks who report that the experience of the art attack.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: So I think, if you're not driving, if you're in
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: a space to do so, and you want to look
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: up this picture, as you said, I think if you,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly how to get there. But if
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: you put in the full title Galla contemplating the Mediterranean Sea,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: which at twenty meters becomes the portrait of Abraham Lincoln
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: homage to Rothko, if you can look that up, you'll
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: get an opportunity to sort of see what's happening in
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: this picture. Then you can see if you have an
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: art attack, hopefully not a fatal one, but that is
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: an experience that people have reported having looking at this.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's maybe the fact that I'm not
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: in person, but just seeing on the screen here, I
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: don't feel that, but I do feel a sense of Again,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: it's hard to look away away from there's you just
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: get a lot to look at in the picture.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about why maybe you're not
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: having that experience right now compared to maybe some folks
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: that have. Right So, people who experience this type of syndrome,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: these symptoms, it seems that it's more likely to occur
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: in travelers. People who visit cities that are known for
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: their art museums, cities like Athens, Florence, Paris, Rome are
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: all more likely to have reported instances of these experiences.
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  Speaker 2: So places that are known for their art, for their history,
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  Speaker 2: for these types of things are more likely to see
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: higher rates of people reporting these types of symptoms. You're
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: probably not going to see as much in places like
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: New York, per se, because New York is not necessarily
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  Speaker 2: known for its art. It's more known for its hustle
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: and bustle. Saint Petersburg, like I said, like you're not
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: going to have a lot of people who are having
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: art attacks in the Dolly Museum, though you might be
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: impressed by the art itself. It's mostly places that are
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: well known and well established for being places of creative epicenters.
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  Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing is that people who enjoy the
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: experience of the ardiac arrest are seeking these out and
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: going to places where they're more likely to have that experience.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, travel is a huge component of this. So traveling
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: to a place and specifically the place's reputation in some
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: of the languaging that we have around those places are
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: some factors that we have to account for.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Here, masochists. Okay, got it?
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Huh sure, just kidding.
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  Speaker 1: So let's try and understand what may be going on
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: and in this space with the Stendall syndrome. Then, So
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Marino at All twenty twenty one set out to find
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  Speaker 1: a cause, if possible, to the experience of Stendall syndrome,
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  Speaker 1: and they are able to find a few key factors
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: that were the most likely to result in that experience
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: that we've been describing of what's happening when looking at
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: this art and having this intense emotional reaction.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, first, someone who is experiencing these symptoms or
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: suffering from the syndrome will likely experience symptoms similar to
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: a panic attack like we mentioned before, but only in
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: the context of specific art, and even then more specific pieces,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: not necessarily art in general. Like somebody who is prone
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: to this is not likely to walk into a museum
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: and all of a sudden have a panic attack. It's
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: very specific to unique circumstances, unique pieces of art for
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, and as we know it before, these experiences
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: are more likely to current cities or destinations that are
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: known for their abundance of art or museums or their
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: history related to art and those artists.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Did you see the movie Red Dragon?
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I never I know, I've never seen that.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Actually, Okay, the main character or the main antagonist I guess,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: played by I never say his name, right, Ralph Fiens Finds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: He has a very intensive reaction to a piece of
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: art and it is like it sort of speaks to him,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: if you will, sure, And so that I wonder if
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: that was intentionally referring to Stendell syndrome, like if that
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: was the the authors, like that's why he was bringing
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: that up. But just that reminded me of that as
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you were talking through it.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be interesting because Red Dragon came out in
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: the nineties, right.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: It may have been a little after that, may have
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: been early two thousands.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, oh yeah, two thousand and two, Yeah, two thousand
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: and two. So yeah, that's in the timeline.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: So anyway, you're sort of describing the sort of the
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: key factors here as we're talking about this, and it
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: does seem that one of the important ingredients to the
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: experience might be travel related, as we've sort of alluded to.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, the cases that were reported, the majority of people,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: if not all, the people who reported related symptoms, were
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: travelers to the city to see specific art pieces. And
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: it makes me think that possibly there are factors related
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: to the kind of physiological states you go through as
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: part of your travel.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so, in these contexts, the person who has traveled
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: has most likely experienced multiple of the following on their
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: way to the art that they want to see. They've
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: probably experienced some stress, lack of sleep, maybe some hunger, dehydration,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: and even jet lag. Each one of these conditions may
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: lead to the onset of a panic attack without the
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: context of art, right, so, you may have an experience
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: around that because you are not quite at homeostasis. Your
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: body is not quite where it's supposed to be when
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: when you are traveling, or like, it's not kind of
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: at your baseline. And so simply put, all we're saying
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: is that people are more likely to experience this if
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: they aren't meeting some basic needs, and traveling does kind
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: of put a drain on those resources. Traveling does reduce
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: your sleep, Traveling does interrupt your sleep patterns, Traveling does
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: produce poor eating habits because you're not used to your
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: normal routines. And so just those stressors alone are enough
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to kind of prime you for a panic attack or
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: some of the other symptoms dizziness, feinting, some of those
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: other things that we mentioned before.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: So I think I'm seeing here that what they're picking
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: up on is that people who are stressed out, sleep deprived,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: and in an unfamiliar place are more likely to have
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: an experience around art that is more dramatic than if
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: they were more satiated and more comfortable. Yes, exactly, you
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: nailed it, great, all right, lovely well. The second component
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: to this is thought to be cognitive. Zidell two thousand
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: and nine noted that multiple cognitive processes occur when we
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: are observing art, which does make sense. We do have
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: to behave with respect to the art in one way
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: or another, which means that we are involved. This includes
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: visual and auditory processing, preference responses, interpretation of symbols and
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: symbolism and are there's going to be some element of
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: trying to like superimpose meaning on top of the ambiguity
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: that's usually inherent in many art pieces. And these processes
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: may elicit emotional responses in the person regardless of their
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: physical states, such as increased heart palpitations, crying, deep breathing.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: I think that sometimes art, as I mentioned it, more
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: or less ambiguously displays some kind of message a lot
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: of the time, right, and it creates an opportunity to
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: superimpose your own interpretation, values or thoughts about what's being
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: depicted in that scene. And that might include like motives
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: for the artists they're painting by itself, meaning that you
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: might look at something and think they were trying to
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: communicate this, this was their way of doing that. That's
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: how I am interpreting this piece of work that I
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: see here, And then from that you sort of connect
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: to them in sort of a pseudo social way, you
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like all of a sudden, it's
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: like your understanding a piece of something that they believe
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: without having done it with words. And that's pretty complex,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Like that's a huge level of language superimposed on top
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: of something that was a creative work. And I think
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: that's kind of the point, right, And I think in particular,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: people are very emotionally moved by things that are political
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: issues or other sort of moral or personal experiences or traumas,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: and so if they can read into that art a
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: thing that they agree with and their beliefs, or they
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: vehemently disagree with in their beliefs, it's possible that that
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: just looking at that piece of art, then if you
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: start to connect those dots and it resonates on some
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: personal level with you, then I could see that having
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: a pretty intense sort of feeling that comes with it.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Sure. I mean we've mentioned Dolly a couple of times.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I know that I was pretty overwhelmed with the work,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: like going to his museum and seeing his works because
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: I had studied his history. I was interested in kind
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: of his story, like you know, and he was just
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: such a unique character in the art world that I
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: was overwhelmed. I don't know that it was anything more
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: than just I had studied his stuff for so long
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: that it was like cool to see it in person,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: like that experience of like, oh, it's different than reading
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: it in books and seeing it in person, like it's
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: very much so like that. I think people who listen
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: to music might have the same experience, where like you
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: listen to a record, but seeing that band live is
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: a very different experience, And so I can understand that
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: level of it without even the interpretation or the symbolism
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: parts of it or anything like that, just looking at
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: it and going wow, the person that I've been interested
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: in for so long had his hands on this and
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: has done this creative thing and done all of these
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: creative things, and they were collected in this space, so
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: like I could see that piece. But for me personally,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: I have had those sensations but not but in different
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: context too, so it was never just that overwhelmed like Wow,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: this is cool. I've had that experience at conferences seeing
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: people that are researchers that I like speak or you know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: seeing bands and stuff like that, or like being able
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: to go to a restaurant that I'd heard about before,
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Like there's like that kind of going back to that
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: sense of awe and that sense of like wow, I'm
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: here versus oh my god, i think I'm having a
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: heart attack. You know, like very different experiences overall.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: No I think that's a good point, and I think
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: that you described that really well. It's like something that
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: all of those situations really have in common to to
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: one another, is that like you get to really be
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: in it, as you said, like being physically present, being there,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: and none of them are interrupted by ads. All right, well,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: let's let's like I think we're closing in on sort
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: of how we want to really wrap our discussion and
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: wrap our minds, if you will, and our thoughts around
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: this topic and trying to understand what's going on and
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: stend all syndrome.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Ultimately, I think it's important to we talk about psychology
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: and we talk about syndromes and disorders to be able
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to classify this in a way that helps us understand
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: this a little bit. And so this syndrome actually doesn't
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: have any sort of DSM descriptors or identifications or support,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: and there isn't a body of work coming from the
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: behavioral literature on this really at all. So does this
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: mean it's all made up? Not really. So I think
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: it's important to note that about four to six percent
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: of people in the US experience what are called psychosomatic
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: disorders with a reported and this is going to be
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: really fascinating. We'll kind of unpack what psychosomatic disorders are.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: They're basically just kind of like, there's no physical reason
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: why you're having these physical symptoms. That's all of us. Yeah,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: But it is reported that there is a female and
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: male ratio of reporting on this of about ten to one,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: so about for every one male that reports a psychosomatic symptom,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: ten women will report psychosomatic syndromes. Wow. And it's basically
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: just reported that women have a much higher prevalence of
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: psychosomatic disorders than men. Now, I think this is a
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: part where it's really important to unpack the disparities among
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: diagnoses and trust from doctors that they have for women
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: versus men. Men when they go to the doctor, as
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: a general rule, and there's some good research on this,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: men can go report something to a doctor and it's
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: taken very seriously. Women will have to go to the
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: doctor multiple times reporting the same symptoms with a doctor
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: kind of blowing it off, get like you're kind of saying, ah, no,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: just take some medicine and you'll be fine before they're
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: taken seriously. So women are often not trusted to report
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: their own symptoms in the medical space, despite the fact
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: that they are accurately reporting what's going on. So you're
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: going to find that women often they are reporting they
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: are said to report higher levels of psychosomatic disorders, but
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: the truth is probably more that their actual symptoms are
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: being ignored with a real physical reason for having those symptoms.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: And sort of relatedly, I mean even beyond psychosomatic disorders
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: in actual medical provable health conditions, right, is very very recent,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: like within the last few years that it's been more
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: commonly and more well understood that like with it's funny
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: that we're talking about this here, but with myocardio myopathies,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: which is to say, heart attacks, the symptoms for women
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: are often different than those for men, but it was
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: described in the literature as they pertain to men for
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: so long that there were issues where women were having
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: hard attacks and it wasn't even recognized that they were
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: having heart attacks, and so it might have actually even
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: been thought of as being psychosomatic when it was an
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: actual physical thing that was really happening to them and measurable, right,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think that the fact that these
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: institutions were created by men so long ago, and that
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: the women often were not even involved in those discussions.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: The same thing has happened in obstetrics, interestingly, has happened
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: in gynecology, has happened in so many aspects of medicine
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: and in psychology, where Like, as you said, women are
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: just the standards are often created by men for men,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and then they are not appropriately applied to women, and
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: women are not believed, trusted or otherwise taken as seriously
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: in many of those spaces, even sometimes by women doctors.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: I think women doctors are much better at being like
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: trustworthy for that. But again, like they're trained in the system.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: They're trained in, and that system is one that is
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: just barely starting to come out from underneath the rock
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: of gender and sexism that has created these disparities so
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: long ago.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so, it is kind of this complex space where
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: people are reporting symptoms, but they're not being categorized a
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: certain way, or they're they're not given the attention they deserve, right,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: they're being like like so, so somebody will report something
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: and they're going, oh, it's fine, it's just this, when
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: it's actually something that's a symptom of something more serious.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: So I think that part of the reason that they
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: note that women will report out higher levels of psychosomatic
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: disorders is because people are just not listening to women.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: And potentially what I think someone might hear that and think, well,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: wouldn't it then be flipped like if you weren't listening
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: to women, wouldn't indicate that, like men were the ones
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: who are more likely who are reporting this more than
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: women because the women are being ignored. And I think
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: the point here, and you can correct me if I'm wrong,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: but I think that the point here is what's happening
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: is that women are basically they're reporting it and then
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: like having to repeatedly report it because it's not being
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: heard the first time or the second time or times
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: one through nine apparently, and so they basically have to
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: like keep reporting it, and that registers as higher numbers,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: even though the experiences are likely very similar. Right exactly,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: And we can acknowledge that, like many aspects of most
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: of human culture have generally gendered emotions in a specific way,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: where men are discouraged from displaying emotions, women are not
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: necessarily but are also Their emotions are then like referred
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: to as being excessively intense, even when they're well within
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: the scope of like normal human reactions to things. So
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: I think there is a complex system of gendered expectations
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: around emotions and like social folk pause around emotions that
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: will also skew the reports here to make it difficult
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: to understand if there is a gender related distinction, and
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I very much doubt that there really is, how we
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: would go about determining what that is, aside from all
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: the societal factors that have created that disparity to begin with.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Yep, I think that's perfectly perfectly explained. I love that. Now.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: A study from twenty twenty three from you at All,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: they actually found that they reports yeah from you, from
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: you and you and you, and so they actually found
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: that there were major increases in psychosomatic symptoms in China specifically,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: And this was after COVID nineteen, So COVID nineteen happens
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: and the world pandemic is in full swing. And then
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: two years later they start kind of measuring this and
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: they start noticing that there is an increase or uptick
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: in psychosomatic symptoms with a prevalence increasing two between twenty
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: two percent to thirty nine percent. So of the popular
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: reporting that they're having some symptoms with no physical cause
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: of those of those ailments got it.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And it's of course important to note that bodies are
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: very very complex networks of systems operating together. We're talking
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: about multiple interconnected feedback loops within human bodies that are
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: like things that we still barely understand how some of
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: them work. Yes, and when things like constant exposure to
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: stress and distress occur, it can alter the function of
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: certain systems beyond what we would predict would be the
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: case in a sort of unstressed system, if you will
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: so again, I think a way to just think about
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: this is like when we put strain on these systems,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: be it from stress or slip deprivation or what have you,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: or other expectations as we've been describing the other parts
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: of our body and the systems inside of us can
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: also begin to fail or work differently, or new symptoms
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: start to show up. You can have flair ups with
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: other diagnoses such as are threatus, diabetes, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and all said to be made worse due to the
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: sort of higher levels of stress. And I know a
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: lot of people like to specifically just use the me
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I was gonna use this term earlier. Metaniminy wait menanimity yeah,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: metaneminy is right, yeah, meddemity yeah yeah yeah, and they'll
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: just call it cortisol like they're calling stress that And
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: it's probably worth unpacking that in another discussion. Have we
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: talked about stress just like straight stress before?
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know that we have explicitly, but we probably should.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Four hundred episodes, four hundred and two episodes, and we
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: still have. If we haven't, that one needs to go
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: on the list. But if we have, then go back
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: and check out that episode. I'll find out later. Anyway.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Put another way, if a person already has an underlying condition,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: introducing them to stress and distress is then more likely
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: to result in and cause related symptoms. Right. It just
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: exacerbates whatever problems are already there.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So when somebody is having an experience related
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: to the Sendall syndrome, they may already have some underlying
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: condition that stress has just magnified, so they may already
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: have problems breathing. And then they've traveled for eighteen hours
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: to go to some art museum and they see some
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: piece of art that is highly emotional for them, like
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: all of those things together are convalescing onto that person
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: and creating like a perfect cocktail of Yes, you're going
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: to have a panic attack because your body is not
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: prepared for all the things that have happened so far,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: and this was the straw that broke the camel's back, right,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Like that's a kind of a simple way to explain it.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's a saying that something along the
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: lines of the best seasoning is hunger, meaning like the
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: best food will ever taste to you is if you've
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: gone like a really long time without eating, right essentially
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: how that means. And I feel like this sort of
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: a similar idea here is like putting yourself in these
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: extreme states makes you just sort of have a height
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: reaction to everything. Right, and the worst seasoning for podcasts
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: as ads? All right, we are back. We've been talking
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: about sort of the physical experiences and symptoms of just stress,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: I think broadly speaking, right, but how that might relate
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: to something like understanding Stendall syndrome.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So what happens when our body reacts to stress
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: is that our autonomic nervous system changes what it's doing.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: It moves from our parasympathetic to sympathetic control, or we
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: rapidly move from rest to fight or flight. So changes
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: in our endocrine system or our hormones may also be
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: a response to stress, and those changes in our hormones
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: might result in things like increased heart rates, changes in
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: blood pressure, change in sugar level, all of those things
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: that can lead to physical symptoms like shortness of breath, dizziness,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: et cetera, etcetera, etcetera, all of the symptoms of a
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: panic attack or general anxiety. So all the things that
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: we just mentioned could be a result of our systems
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: changing or adapting to our environment, responding to things like
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: higher levels of stress, unfamiliar environments, and all of those things,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: and they can result in those same symptoms in the
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: absence of art, So in the absence of a painting,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: in the absence of sculpture, those same systems operate the
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: same way. So it just so happens that maybe with
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Stendall syndrome we have a particular point of focus while
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: all these other things are happening the same way.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Well said, that makes it's like anything may have been
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: the trigger, but this was particularly well poised to be
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: that trigger.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Right, It's sort of what I'm hearing here the same
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: reason we blame the full moon on behavior. We have
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: just oriented to a particular salient stimuli in our environment
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: that while all these other things are happening at the
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: same rate or the same condition, at the same type
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: of speed. You know.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's like there are active ingredients that are
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: at play here, and we chose to focus on the
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: correlated ingredient that just happens to be obvious. Yeah, and
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: just as so, it's sort of like what actually happened
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: is you were sleep deprived, had a bad day, need food,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: don't feel very well, and are under a lot of stress,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: and you're like, well, but that light in the sky
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: that's got that's that's got to be doing something.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Right, sure, right, like exactly.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: It does not need to be doing something. It could
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Let's rule out the other ten factors that we know
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: are the things doing something first, right exactly? Perhaps? Okay,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: all right, now the question here, are there people that
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: will report medical symptoms and do so? Far? Attention, Sure,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: we did an episode about fictitious disorder imposed on another.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Fictitious disorder is just the first part of that which
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: can be imposed on the self, right, But it is
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: still a thing. We also talked about hypochondria and related things.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: I think in munchausends andy, which is that that's the
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: fictitious disorder, the old name for fictitious disorder, right, But anyway,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: it's hard to decipher without experimentation or like appropriate proper diagnosis.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: But it could be that people who over report or
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: falsely report these symptoms may prefer like the very specific
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: types of attention that come from like medical professionals or
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: nurturing care from loved ones, particularly if that's something they
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: don't already regularly or easily receive. Right, So that might
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: be the case for some people, like the people who
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: are in this the situation where we would maybe call
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: their experience Stenthal syndrome is more about almost performance, sure,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: in a listening of very specific social response to their behavior.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: For some people, I don't know that there would be
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: the majority of people, but at least greed like, there's
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: gonna be at least one and probably more than that
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: for whom that is true.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a small contingent of people that that would
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: be the case. That's also not to say that that's
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: true for everybody, actually not true for the majority, and
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: that medical professionals should still take those reports seriously to
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: make sure that there is nothing wrong, Like you don't
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: just want to go like, oh, there's doing it for attention,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Like that's an unfair underestimation of that person's actual experience.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: It's not particularly helpful either. It doesn't really inform like, well,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: what do we do about this? Right to take that position?
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Right. So the impetus for this this episode, the reason
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: that I wanted to talk about this was because it
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: came up in a book I was reading called The
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Art Thief. And so if you're not familiar with this,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I recommend everybody so bonus recommendation for the show, you
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: should go read this book because it is really fascinating.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: So there's a man named Stefan Breitweiser and he was
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: self reported to have Stendall syndrome. And why is this important? Well,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: between nineteen ninety five and two thousand and one, he
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: stole two hundred and thirty nine separate art pieces from
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy two different museums across Europe, and
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: the total cost or the total value of all these
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: pieces together was estimated at about two billion dollars in total.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: He stole nearly two billion dollars in art because he
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: was having these emotional, these visceral emotional reaction to the
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: art that he was observing. And what did he do
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: with these art pieces when he stole them. He put
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: him in his small little apartment with his girlfriend and
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: accomplice and they would just look at stuff and they
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: would not take care of it. They would like roll
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: up paintings and stuff them under his bed. And these
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: are like sixteenth century, fifteenth century pieces. These are like
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: he was using like really beautiful chalices as ash trays
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that. Like absurd the little care that
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: he had in the presence of these bits of art.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: And as a matter of fact, when he was finally caught,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: they weren't able to recover sixty of the pieces. They
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: are thought to be destroyed or burned and completely destroyed,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: so lost to history. But the reason I wanted to
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: cover this because he would explicitly talk about having these
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: emotional responses to specific pieces and they were not pieces
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: that he knew, but he was traveling all over Europe
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: and he was there's you know, you could probably make
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: an argument that there's maybe like a compulsion there too.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: You know, if you want to get that far into it,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: we could talk about that a different day. But it
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: was one of those things where every time he saw
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: a specific piece of art, he would have disneyess hey,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: we'd have heart palpitations, and then he would end up
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: stealing it.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Is this the dude you were talking about who like
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: he used like a pocket knife and he'd walk in
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: and just grab it off the wall and walk out.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the same guy. Yeah, wow, Yeah, he would
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: like he would like unscrew like an acrylic or like
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: a glass case with like a pocket knife, and he
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: like and he would just like unscrew it in broad daylight,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: in in view of cameras and still get away with it.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Wow. The like, that guy is stealing a piece of
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: art right now? Should we stop him? No, Let's see
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: how this plays out.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see how this plays out. And then and
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: then he got caught, and then he went to jail,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: and then he got out of jail, and then he
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: stole again, and he went back to jail and he
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: wrote a book and he's like, I'm reformed, and then
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: he ended up stealing again after the book was written.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: So the book bailed because he was not reformed. It's
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: a complicated story, but everybody should I think as a
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: bonus recommendation, you should read the Art Thief. It's really fascinating.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, if I were to summarize all of this
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: and sort of a major like, what's the point, what's
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: the major thief? What did we learn from unpacking all
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: of this? My interpretation of this then is that for
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: the most part, what we're probably dealing with is people
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: who are experiencing a lot of other intensive variables and
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: that they are not in sort of a homeostasis state
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: physiologically or psychologically. Then they experience some like particularly evocative
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: piece of art that someone has created, right, and so
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: like Stendel syndrome seems to be more about the context
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: of a stressed out state and an evocative stimulus, and
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: that's kind of what you get. Is that sound about right?
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly it. You know, stressed out state, underlying conditions,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: art as context, and those three things together tend to
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: result in these symptoms that we're talking about, which are
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: general anxiety or panic attacker like symptoms.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, Now, I think it's always important in conversations such
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: as this one to discuss the fact that at least
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: some people listening to this might be having the thought,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: is this a thing we needed a name for? And
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about names and naming, and
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about that in fact on
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: here and subsequent discussions. Possibly the many that we're releasing
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: before this will have been that exact discussion, or at
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: least another one of those discussions. Yeah, good timing, indeed,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: But there's this tendency to want to name things, and
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: that people feel better when they have a name assigned
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: to a thing. And it's important to note that, like
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: all that has happened in this space is that we
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: have observed some behavior that looked somewhat unique in a
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: particular setting and then decided to assign a specific name
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: to that. That doesn't mean it's a thing, right, It
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's like it just happens to be on
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: the spectrum of experience that like someone might have this
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: is on there somewhere for some people, and like we
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: don't need to have a name for every sliver of
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: the spectrum, you know. I think what it does is
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: it creates an expectation that heightens the likelihood that someone's
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: going to orient to the name and not be as
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: open to whatever that experience might have been for them
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: for some people, but just beyond that, I think it
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: pathologizes a normal human experience, which is something that I've
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: always had a problem with the sort of self diagnosing culture.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: We find ourselves in this tendency and desire to want
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: to have a thing and have a name for that thing,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: and as if that name explains what's happening. So if
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: we like describe someone who's having an emotional response to
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: artist Stendall syndrome, that doesn't explain while they're having an
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: emotional response to art, But a lot of people seem
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: to feel like it does. Like if it has a name,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: then now I understand why it's happening. I'm like, what, how? Why?
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: And this particular thing assumes that art is the light
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: for the fuse, right, I think that's kind of an
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: unfair thing like that. Ultimately, what it's saying is that
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: you've got this concoction of stress, You've got underlying conditions,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: you've got travel, you've got all these things that are
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: going on, and they're all there, but the only thing
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: that set it off was a picture from from Van
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: go and I think that that is that might be
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: the inciting or the the evocative stimulus in the environment.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: But like that could happen with anything. It doesn't necessarily
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: have to be art. It could be a piece of music,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: It could be food, you ate, it could be anything
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: that could like that fuse. And so I think where
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: I don't find utility in this is that this is
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: a syndrome that is purely contextual, Like it relies on
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: context and nothing else. And I think that that like
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: it also assumes that the context is causal, right, and
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: it's just a small variable in the larger cocktail of
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: things that are going on with that person.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Right, Okay, that makes a lot of sense to me.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there's there's a desire to be
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: critical of this what feels like an excessive amount of
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: like I want to say, stigmatizing or pathologizing or diagnosing
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: things that people do. And as you said, I think
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: that not only is it that it over emphasizes a
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: perfectly normal thing to do, is that it also mischaracterizes
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: the relevant variables that contribute to that. Right, And as
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: you said, it like it could be anything could have
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: set this off. It just happens to be in this
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: case that it was art right, and it's like, but
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: we didn't also give that same name to all those
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: other things, And like, I also don't think that I'm
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: not I don't think we're advocating that we do just
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: call everything Stendall syndrome and it's like you're under an
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: extremely stressed out state and have a reaction to something like, oh,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: there's that Stendall syndrome acting up.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think that that's helpful either, And I was
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: trying to think of, like in a comparative analogy that
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I would hope would help ring true the sort of
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: argument I think we're trying to make here. And I
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: don't know if this works exactly, but I'm trying to
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: imagine someone who's from like, was born in the Florida Keys,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: and it'll spent their entire life there, and then at
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: some point, as in adulthood, they make it to the
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: north and they see snow for the first time and
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: they're like, why is it doing that? And the person
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: says it's snow, and they're like, great question answered, right,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: it has a name, so now I know why it's
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: doing that. It's it is is coming down that way
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: because it is snow. I'm like, yeah, but why, like, right,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: what you call it really doesn't mean anything. All you
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: really have to tell me is when it gets cold enough,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: water crystallizes and falls in this form, right, And then
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: it'd be like, oh, that makes that makes a lot
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: more sense. I don't care what you call it. You
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: could call it if you want to, but the information
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: about why it happens is more relevant.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: And that's why.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to go in terms of like
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: an analogy to try and link why I get grumpy
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: with this tendency to want to name everything and then
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: treat that as if that's an explanation.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think that's fair, that's reasonable.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well we went way past what we had a
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: lot of content for here in that bonus discussion, But
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: I think that is what we more or less have
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: to say about send all syndrome. I'm not, and I'm
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: really not trying to criticize the experience that people have
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: in these spaces like have your visual reaction. Actually, I'm
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: planning on at some point we're going to do a discussion,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: either a mini or a full length on a free
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: I think it's called Frison Freezen. Maybe are you familiar
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: with this?
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: No?
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Not, it's actually it's so it's sort of similar in
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: the sense that it's an intensive reaction to music, but
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: it is like physiologically measurable where you get like people's
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: like hairs, like the gig goosebumps, that sort of thing. Okay,
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: And so anyway, that'll be one that I have on
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: the list to talk about. It's sort of related here
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: in this discussion, at least in the sense that it's
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: like a like very noticeable reaction that people might have
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: to some created work that someone has made. Right, that'll
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: be coming down the road. But anyway, I think it
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: was a fun conversation to have. I don't know if
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: there was more I was going to add to that,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: but that was where I like it.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fine. I mean I think I land on
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, like is this the
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: thing that's real? I think people's experiences are real?
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, right, that's important that I think is the point
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: I wanted to make.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I think that's probably where I
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: land Do we need a name for it? Probably not,
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: because I think there's better explanations for what's going on,
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: like better causal descriptions. But I do think that people
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: do have this experience, and just I guess the moral stories,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: take care of yourself, make sure you drink enough water
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: and get some rest fair enough.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: I also think it's worth pointing out, just as you said,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: exactly the point that everyone has the experiences that we have,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: and I think it's like we acknowledge that's a real
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: experience that you had. That's fine. And I also think
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: there are probably going to be some people who really
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: do have like a very specific thing around our and
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: I would think that, as you said, the consideration there
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: is that there's probably other like conditions that are going
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: on for them, right, where like they have some other
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: diagnosis that would suggest that they're likely to be triggered
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: in those sorts of spaces right. And again I think
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: it's not inherently the art itself. I think that happens
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: to be a relevant catalyst for some people. So don't
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: want to diminish it all the experience that people have.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: But if you would like to email us and tell
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: us about your experience with stenthell syndrome or some version
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: of that, you can do so by emailing us directly
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: infowwdwwdpodcast dot com or reaching out to us on the
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: other social media platforms. And in fact, we have more
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: things to say about how you can support us, and
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: we also like to get to some RECOMMD but I
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: want to make sure before I do that, is there
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to add about stand all syndrome
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Before we get to our credits and our recommendations.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Go to a museum and see some art. It's really great.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Bonus recommend number two from Shane.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: If you are joining us for the first time, as
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: I said, welcome, we were happy that you made it
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: this far. If you're still with us, that is, we
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: do this thing at the end of each of our
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: discussions where we recommend some stuff. But before I do that,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I need to get through the credits really quick, which
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: is to say that, as I mentioned, you can support
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon. When you do that, you'll get access
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: to behind the scenes content, bonus content, all kinds of
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: good stuff, and we are always up for suggestions for
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: other things that people might want to get as a
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: benefit out of joining us. Over there. We like to
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: come up with more things, and so we are open
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: to suggestions. We really we love our group of people
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: and we are very proud that anybody would find enough
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: value in us that they're willing to send any amount
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: of resources our way. We're very flattered and humbled by
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: the generosity of those people. And to help illustrate that point,
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: at each and every episode, I read the list of
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: the names of those people who are currently there supporting us,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: being kind, generous, wonderful humans, and that is Mike m Megan,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian Ashley, and Kiara.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: Thank you all so much again.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: You're the best. You're the best ever.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Yes, And if you would like to join them, you
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: can go over there and do that thing. If you
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: don't want to support us on Patreon, you can head
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: to our web store and pick up some merch and
• 52:31
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• 52:32
  Speaker 1: a rating and a review wherever you listen to podcasts,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: or just a rating or just a review either as fine.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: The more positive it is, the easier it is for
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: people to find us. So consider that if you're planning
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: on gearing up to write something mean, you can just
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: email us instead. Yeah that we feel like we have
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: something potentially fun at least to say, if not sometimes useful.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, as I mentioned, you can email us. Oh, a
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: team of people help make this podcast a podcast is
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: writing and fact checking from Shane and myself. Our audio
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: engineer and producer person is Justin and our social media
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: coordinator is Emma Wilson. All Right, is there anything else
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: that I am forgetting or anything you would like to
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: add before we transition to our recommendations.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it for today.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: All right, Well I am going to add an ad
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: all right, So, as I said, we recommend things. We
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: recommend things that are usually unrelated to the thing that
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: we were just discussing. We just come up with a Hey,
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: this is the thing I would recommend to some people,
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: and then we write it down and then we share it.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: And that's probably what's happening today. So why don't you
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: go first recommend some things.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Recommendations. I'm going to recommend an app which is called
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: story Graph. So, as folks of the show know, I
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: am an avid reader. I read so much and we
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: like books and so one of the things I like
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: to do, though, is I like to track and I
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: like to keep data on my stuff, and so story
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: graph is a really great way to do that. And
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: it's also not owned by Jeff Bezos. So if for
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: those of you who are listening and typically use good Reads,
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: this story graph is basically good Reads but way better.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: It gives you pie charts, It gives you page numbers
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: that you've read. It gives you graphical displays on how
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: much you're reading per month. It gives you bars on
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: your progress. It records how your reviews are going for
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: your books. It does a really good job of kind
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: of taking all the information that you would have on
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Goodreads but making it better and making it more useful.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: And you can actually import all of your data from
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: good Reads into story Graphs, so you don't have to
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: worry about redoing your entire library, which is really really nice.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Interesting all that to say, if you would like to
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: add me on StoryGraph, my username on there is just
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Shane T. Spiker, So feel free to find me on there,
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: add me on there, keep track and then we can
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: share books and recommendations and all that stuff. But I
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: really love it and it's really easy to use and
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: a really great place to kind of like keep track
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: of the things that you're doing.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: So this is just like an app on like Android
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: or iPhone.
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can just get it and sign up
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: for it and it's free and you get out of
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: your stuff on it.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Is this in any way similar to Letterboxed? I know
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: that's another popular one.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: Similar. Yeah, similar in that way that you can kind
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: of like rate and you can share reviews and you
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: can do all that stuff, but just kind of keep
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: track of what you've watched and what you've done on there.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: I see, but it's letterbox with books. Letterbox Okay, got you.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: How convinced are you that this is not owned by
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos? And is there anything that is not owned
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: by Jeff Bezos.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: I'm very convinced that it's not owned by Jeff Bezos.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: It's owned, it's it's black women owned. So I'm very
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: convinced that it is not owned by him.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, great, that all right? Sure, you know it feels
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: like it's hard.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: To it's hard to really figure that out these days.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: It is. Yeah. They did a good a good joke
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: on Saturday Night Live where at Amazon employee who was like,
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: they were like, it sounds like you're working way too hard,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: and I really think that you should be treated better
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: as an employee or something of that nature. And she
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: was like, she kept on sort of saying well, like no, no, no,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: it's great, it's fine. You know, working for Amazon's fine,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: it's great. Whatever, And she's obviously stressed out and was like,
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: sometimes I will order things to deliver to my house.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: I can wave at my kids as I drive by
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: after dropping it off. But anyway, he said something about like, oh, well,
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: you know, you should really be treated better, and she's like, oh,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: thank you for saying that. So you're gonna stop buying
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: things from Amazon and he's like ooh, but anyway, this
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: is not a story about Amazon today. That was story
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: graph was the thing you were talking about. Yes, so
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: what I'm recommending a YouTube video. So this is a guitarist.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: His name is a Chica and Nito. I am saying,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: probably butchering that, and he is maybe the most talent
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: to guitars who has ever lived. But he has this
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: song called Metaphor and there it has a music video.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: The music video is fine, but I strongly recommend the
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: live performance video instead, where you really get to see
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: him play. You'll think that you have your video on
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: times two speed and you don't. He's just that fast
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: and it has been blowing my mind, and so I've
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: watched it multiple times because I'm like, humans can't can't
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: make guitars do that, and so it's pretty fun to watch.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: But he can't.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: You can. Humans can Apparently it seems like they shouldn't
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: be able to. But I'm then watching it happen. Particularly
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: if you like like guitars, or you play guitar, or
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: you like to appreciate virtuosity and guitar, this will be fun.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: But even if not, the song itself I think is
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: perfectly catchy. I mean it doesn't have lyrics, but it's
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: perfectly It's perfectly catchy musically and really interesting to watch.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: And so there's a link in the notes for how
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: to go watch that, or you can just go look
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: for I Chica Nito metaphor and you'll probably find it.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: And then, as I said, live performance is the way
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: to go.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, for sure.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: I show this to Shane before we started recording, and mind, yeah,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: blew his mind whole way open.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm gone. My mind whole is totally gone.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: It's gone. I think it. That is what we have
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: to say about Standell Syndrome, a Chica Nito and story graph.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: As I said, reach out to us if you'd like
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: to talk to us about those things. We're also on
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: the social media platforms including blue Sky and so Yeah,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: go find us. There is there anything else that you
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: would like to add or anything that I missed before
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: we say oh goodbye? Is today Shane?
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: Uh? Nope, I think that covers it.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you for recording with me today. Thank you everyone
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: for listening. This is Abraham and this is Shane.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: We're out se Yah.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Why We Do what We Do.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: going to WWD wwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day