Latest / The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+ / Gay Men Over 50: It’s Time to Find Your People

Transcript

Gay Men Over 50: It’s Time to Find Your People · The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wisdom Trust.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Lauren Crawford.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for gay men over 50 who sense there's more to this stage of life than we've been taught.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: More connection, meaning, honesty, and possibility.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode is a conversation with a thoughtful gay man who's navigating the deeper questions that often emerge in the second half of life.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Aging, identity, purpose, belonging, reinvention, community, love, and living consciously.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: These are not conversations about decline, they're conversations about becoming.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you're here.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Wisdom Trust.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here with Stephen Anovziger today.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And before I introduce Steven, I want to take a moment just to remind us that we're here as men who are of a certain age, who are living and having interesting experiences in our lives.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're having conversations about things that we're doing.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're hoping in this conversation that we're having today and the others to inspire, to motivate, to maybe give a little shift in perspective.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're feeling a little bit lost or feeling a little bit uncertain about what the next steps might look like, hopefully these conversations will inspire you.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: So let me tell you a little bit about our guests today.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So Stephen is a 55-year-old gay man who lives in the Boston area in Quincy, and he's originally from Los Angeles.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he has two daughters who live in the San Francisco Bay Area.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, Stephen.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would love for you to just elaborate a little bit more on who you are and a little bit about your story.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, you gave a lot of the basics of who I am, but obviously underneath a paragraph is just so much more, you know, depth and life experience, especially as we get older.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: We've gone through a lot of different things that we didn't expect to go through.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Some things were more pleasant than others.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in a very religious home, but evangelical, like hardcore evangelical.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: My family was like pretty conservative, went to Christian schools my whole life until college, rebelled a little, but I still had a lot of that training and teaching in my in my head.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So from like to meet some of the things that we're talking about here today about being a gay older man, I had in my upbringing a lot of negative thoughts and negative words in my head about being gay.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like even all the way to where like the gays were trying to ruin America and the gays were trying to take over our country and all this stuff.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's all I heard growing up.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Same, I mean, from my church, from my school, and at home.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that really stuck in my head.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was younger, like many people, like I had attraction toward men.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I knew it.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I knew who I was drawn to, I knew like what the pictures I was looking at or things I was interested in.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: But all and all I had in my head was just like, you're going to hell.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: God hates you.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: He's going to hate you.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to lose your family.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to lose your friends.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't do that.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I tried really hard to block those voices out and block those ideas out.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I did fairly successfully, my thought.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up getting married when I was like 21 years old to a lovely woman and had two kids very early.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I was 23 when I had my first, 25 when we had our second.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they're amazing kids and loving and wonderful people.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I all along I had this yearning and I had this like fight inside of me.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So when I was 27, I like felt like things were coming to a head.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like I was going to end up killing myself over this, this very thing, because I didn't see a way out.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up going to conversion therapy thinking that that was the way out.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I do all these things that they say, I follow all these rules, pray all the prayers, study all the studies, then I would be cured, and then I could continue on with my life.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And did not go according to that plan.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it ended up coming out later in life close to 40, 37 to 40.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a process, as many people know.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And coming out to my wife, my family, my kids, and eventually to like the rest of the people in my orbit.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them went well, some of it did not go well.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: But that was my process.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Did not expect that that was how my life was going to turn out.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: But as I went along, I learned so much about myself, so much about other people.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And in a way, like I had to learn how to start a new life and to figure out who I am and to figure out like what's the best, most authentic way to move forward in my life instead of hiding things, just being myself.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's intense.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've been reading lately about some of the the psychological impact of some of our experiences and the religion focus on conversion therapy or whatever the new name they're calling it now.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's in some in some ways it's characterized as as you know religious abuse to to to gay men.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So what what was it like to have to go through that and endure that kind of a process while you were, you know, having a family, raising your family, and and and trying to create a quote unquote normal life for yourself and being torn because of this incongruity with within who you are or were?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's a great question.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And even how you how you spoke about it, it's an incongruity.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had these parts of my body and parts of my mind, and I I didn't know how to bring them together.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I voluntarily went to conversion therapy.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people you hear stories that they had to go in and stuff like that.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like I truly wanted to not be gay.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I thought this was the way to get out of being gay because I didn't want God to hate me, go to hell, lose family, lose friends, you know, everything.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I voluntarily went.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: I went for about nine years, which is a long time, very long time, and went through a whole bunch of different philosophies and therapy styles, everything from like just prayer to kind of like like aversion, like like using like different things to make you like not think about those things.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not I didn't have like shock therapy, but there were some different things that they tried.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: White knuckling it, praying and reading, and a lot of psycho babble.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would think that's the biggest thing was like you ended up you had to turn against your parents in a way because the reason you were gay was because they did things wrong.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: They all did things wrong, your mom did things wrong, you know, they they didn't do this right, or they were too distant or too close or too whatever.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so then it was their fault.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you ended up like becoming mad at them when it wasn't their fault at all.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, our parents are our parents, they do the things they do, but so you go through all these different things because they're trying to find ways to convince you that it's not natural.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: There was something broken inside of you, and they were gonna put it back together.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the problem is those feelings don't go away.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So all you do is you feel terrible, you feel bad about yourself, you didn't pray hard enough, or you didn't believe enough, or you didn't, you know, you weren't authentic in it, and all these things.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the bad part about it, too, is I watch so many really good people in those same programs self-destruct.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, everything from like getting hooked on meth, like getting you know, HIV, like trying to kill themselves, losing their families, you know, like going away completely, like all these really bad things because none of it ever worked.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so you just watch people drop by the side by side, and it was just really sad to watch.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yet they persist, right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let's shift gears a little bit because that's wow.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: For you to have gone through that and met thousands of others who, you know, are to this day still experiencing that, you know, our hearts go out.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: When when the shift occurred, how did your life change?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I wish I could say it, you know, was all unicorns and rainbows when that happened, but it wasn't because the reality was I still had a family, I still had kids, I still had a wife, I still had friends and and family and stuff.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the process began with me like basically coming clean to my family and just saying, here, this is this is me, this is what's been going on, this is who I am, and I can no longer be someone else for everyone else.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what it felt like.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like at that point, I realized that I was actually gay.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't something outside of me, it was who I was.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had to realize that I needed to stand up for myself because no one else was going to do it for me.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had to like, because everything again, everything was against me in my life, like all friends, family, support, like they were not for this change.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just many, many days and many, many months of being strong and of like in a way, just standing firm in the midst of chaos around me.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because as I came out to more people, I had more and more like people that I had to like talk to and and work with and and and help them along with my understanding.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, I'd say almost 10 years probably.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember when I came out to my parents, they didn't talk to me for like three months, and we were very close.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I talked to my mom every day, and that was really hard.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like, because they didn't know what to do.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: The hardest though was my wife and my kids, because she and I had to figure out like, all right, well, then what does that mean for the family?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how are we gonna move forward?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she is a very strong person and really great person.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she, like we just said, look, we don't want the kids to have to go anywhere else.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want two houses, we don't want like them to be in different places because they were in their like early teens, mid-teens.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so we decided we were gonna like stay together, be respectful to each other, still care for each other because we still loved each other.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: We still do, like we still talk and everything, and she's awesome.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I know it was very hard for her to also like realize that her life was changing and it was out of her control.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then telling the kids were also that was very difficult too.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they they were really they were supportive of me, but they also had their own feelings to deal with.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that mean?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is our past?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: What was that?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, were we happy?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Did we have fun?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what was that?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because we had a good house, we had a happy house, so it just took took a while to sort through a lot of those feelings, and then I lost pretty much most of my friends.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's that coming out process is when you're in the family familial situation like that, everyone has to go through their own coming out of what the next stage is gonna look like and the grieving and all of that stuff of what was.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: So move forward to a little bit now, though.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: So where where have you arrived?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is oh life is very different.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I mean, I had many great things in the past.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to like say it was all because it wasn't.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: I had great, great family, great experiences, you know, my kids are awesome and and my wife was awesome and everything.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like there were a lot of great things about it.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't awesome, like inside.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: But now, I mean, I moved to Boston nine years ago, a little over nine years ago, for a job.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was actually, I think, the right time at the right place.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I needed like a new start.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I needed to like to just work on myself, become myself, because I was still in the same world with like all the same people and everything.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was pretty providential to have an opportunity to go and do something different and in a way, like start fresh.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I did know people in Boston already, so that helped.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the company that I moved here for was really great and very supportive.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I got my own place.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I had a daughter who was living in Boston, she went to Boston College, had another one in George Washington in DC.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: So at the time it was nice, like I still had them that we could do stuff together.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that was great, but I had to build a new life.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had to decide, okay, this is like not many times.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you get a chance at 45 or whatever to start over and decide, all right, what do I want to do?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, who do who do I want to hang out with?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like that who am I becoming, yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I had to figure that stuff out, and it was great to be able to say, all right, this, you know, I need to just be me and not try to be anything else for anyone else.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I was able to actually the very first day, full day, that I lived in Boston, I went on a ski trip with a gay ski club.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought, I need to meet some people.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was the winter here in Boston, which is long.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided I needed to like just go find some people.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I went on a ski trip up in Vermont with an organization called Outriders.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I met some of the some of the people that I'm still best friends with today on that trip.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it helped jumpstart my life in a in a big way, just having a starting point.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And from there, I joined like a tennis club, gay and lesbian tennis organization, I joined a running group, a dad's group, gay fathers of Greater Boston.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I joined that group, like a bunch of different things.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And those those little elements became part of my community that I built.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you you use the word providential when you were taught telling that that that transition bit, I was thinking, you know, there's this alignment that kind of happens when you're at that certain place of a change needs to occur.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I use the language of the universe kind of steps in, you know, providential, whatever the language is.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: But and you had built so much strength and resilience over those years.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And to land there and all of a sudden be plugged into community.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: What a gift, what a gift that was.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, it could have frankly been the opposite, you know.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So all of those struggles, and then here you are immersing yourself in gay community and finding friends that you still have today.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a beautiful story.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and like I said, you know, it was it was a great opportunity, but I had a little bit of that in Los Angeles, but not really, because I still had like so much of my old life and and people and all that stuff.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had some like pieces of that.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was able to come here and just say, All right, let's jump in, let's do it.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to just kind of go in with not no fear, because everyone has fear when you enter a new community.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I just had to jump in and just say, All right, let's see what happens.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And some things stuck and some things didn't.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, some groups I continue with, some it didn't really work out.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you just have to kind of give it some time and and keep being open.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So as you move forward and made this monumental shift and are in a whole new city and all of that, what did that free you from?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: What did it liberate you?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're able to let go of some stuff, right?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: What what what do you recall being the biggest kind of like you know, bre breadth of letting go, if you will?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say, because I lived in a little bit smaller community in Los Angeles, pretty tight-necked community, and like I can't tell you how many people like were friends of mine that wanted to help me.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And by help me meant like, let's go through a Bible study together and and figure out how you can be straight and how you can not do this or not do that or whatever.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and like just to not have to deal with that, like we said at the beginning, the spiritual abuse, like just to not have to deal with that, like you're bad, you're broken, you know, let me help fix you, let me come alongside because at the core, something's wrong with you, and we need to come along and fix you.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: We love you, but but yes, and that and that's really what it was over and over again.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and like, like I had a I had like a really good friend who I known for many years and played lots of sports with and did lots of different things, and like he took me out after he heard, and I remember I was thinking, like, oh good, we can have a good talk.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was like, I'll meet with you once a week on Saturday mornings, we'll go through this thing, you know, this this book, and we'll, you know, do this, and then we'll get a bigger group that come alongside.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I've done that for so many years, I'm done.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so being able to leave that behind, like just behind the because it it also like induces shame and like regrets and so many things that like hold you back from becoming a new person or becoming the person who you should be, and to like not have to explain myself all the time and not have to like go into these big arguments and big discussions and like go through what the Bible says and what it doesn't say, and like because I knew I knew by that point I had studied everything, like I knew what what had been changed in the Bible and what what you know, like how it was used as a weapon and why.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I would talk about it with people, but they didn't want to hear it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: They just, you know.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have to do that.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: I could start fresh and just move forward.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: When you're when you're talking about like all that pressure, I I just had this image of like a vice grip kind of like pushing on you and pushing on you, and like at what point you can see why some of those beautiful men you mentioned earlier didn't survive this, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like how much of that can you endure?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's it's shameful that this is done under the auspices of religion.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So here you are in this whole new version of yourself, the the fully integrated gay identity.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think that's part of the thing that gets so confusing, especially coming out a little bit later, and at any stage and coming out really is that identity bit.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Am I that?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so fully embracing that.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: What does that open up for for you now over the last nine years in in your new location?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And tell us, tell us how what you've been free to become.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's funny because that question, because one of the things I I really enjoy doing is I really enjoy costumes.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy like dancing and like a bunch of different things.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember like not feeling like I had the freedom to do a lot of those things because they could be seen, because again, I'm hiding.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And like if I if I like dancing too much, or if I like like being creative in costume and like do all these things, like that's gonna that's gonna put a like a target on me, and people are gonna know, and then I'm gonna get you know in trouble and like all this stuff.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: So like just not worrying about any of that anymore, just being able to just be me and just say, like, okay, now and like I I've organized some insane costumes for like groups of friends.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, one one year we did the like drag monsters basically.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we had I was Frankensteina and like with like full, I did like a full makeup with like Frankenstein's head and and everything, and then like we I just helped everyone come up with some like crazy costumes.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I like I do a lot of creative things for people, and like that's it, those are silly, but it's just being free to do the things that I love and and still enjoying the things I enjoyed before, which are I love sports, I love you know being outside and doing a lot a lot of different things, I love being with my family, I love you know, all those things.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: That part doesn't change because that that was really me, but it allows me to be fully me with all the other things that I like as well.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like the creativity, I think, is so brilliant, you know, like in the gay community, it's you know, all shades of colors of creative, right?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's unfortunate for for probably a lot of straight men or maybe closeted men who have that but are scared to tap into it.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because I strongly believe that when we tap into that creative aspect of our being, that's a strong pillar in our fullness as humans, right?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're not tapping into our creativity, we're kind of missing a little bit about who we are and maybe some spark of living, right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you're not afraid, like you don't feel afraid.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't feel afraid to be all those elements of me.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is something that uh not just in the Christian world, but in like a lot of the straight world that I was in, like people were really afraid to be extra affectionate or emotive or creative or whatever.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: There was just like that was effeminate, and so you couldn't do that, and so being able to just be me, which is part effeminate, part masculine, and everything in between is really that's to me is very free.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just to just to try what you want to try.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Go after what you want to go after and not have hangups like, oh, I shouldn't do that.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I should, you know, that that would look bad, but just to be able to go forward and try things.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: It it just thinking of all the colors of the Pride Rainbow, right?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there are more colors added in the last, you know, generation.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Which is brilliant because it's like, yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yet sometimes when we look at the gay community, we can be very punitive to our own.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and that can be some of that abuse that we received earlier being projected out onto others.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, my hope in having these conversations is that people can recognize and appreciate diversity is our strength within the community as well.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're not a monolith.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Find the wisdom trust on schoolschool.com slash the dash wisdom dash trust slash about.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Website is wisdomtrust50.com.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Find us on Substack, the WisdomTrust.substack.com.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not watching us on YouTube, youtube.com slash at the Wisdom Trust 50.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: See you on those platforms.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit more.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: You are, you know, living this fully engaged, dynamic life.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's your relationship status?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: How is all of that part of your life going?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really great.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I have a partner I've had for six, seven years.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: He is a dad also and has three boys.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have two daughters.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: He has three boys.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Two of them still live with us.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: One just moved out to move in with his girlfriend.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: They just, the younger ones just graduated from college.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I moved from I only had sisters and I only had daughters.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I moved from that into a house, all boys.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like I felt like I was going into a different world.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Even though, like, you know, I'm male, it was chaos.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was just so different.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like just thinks different.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone grunts.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like they don't have like 20-minute conversations about everything, which I always did with my family and daughters.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I would come here and they'd be like, Yeah, no.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that was it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's all you had.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just a different world.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, so that's been a really fun thing is moving into this world.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we all live together on actually, I can see the ocean from my room here.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Live right on the right on the water, uh, south of Boston.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: We spend a lot of time in a boat when the weather's nice, like maybe six months.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We go boating all the time.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: We go to Provincetown fairly often.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: We ski a lot up in north of us in Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire, and then out west.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what we do, but a lot of it we just do normal things, shop, cook, you know, garden.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: But we go out with the friends, friends a lot too.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you and I spoke previously, you you talked a lot with a lot of you talked with a lot of passion about some of the organizations you're involved with, and you shared some observations, which I thought were pretty astute around, you know, what where you can see gay men at this stage in life, you know, what what their experiences may look like if they've if they're coming out later, these kinds of things.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: So and you have become, you know, a peer mentor for sure.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: You've endured a lot.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: You've had you've had this resilience and found that inner strength to just rise above all of that bullshit.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And now you're able to support others just by being who you are.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about some of your experiences.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So one organization that I'm part of, I don't run or anything like that, but I'm I'm friends with and go to a lot of the events.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a gay fathers of greater Boston.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and that group helps come alongside anyone who's a father, really, but it is a lot of it is the like older men that come out late in life and they're transitioning to what I went through.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's men as old, like in their like 60s, mid-60s that are coming out now, or younger and all that stuff.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: But there's there's a wide range of people.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And just through that group, I've met so many different men who are at different stages of acceptance, different stages of like familial, you know, makeup, like some kids are mad at them still.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Some, you know, they're still going like they're going through divorces or they're, you know, in big fights or whatever.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that part of my job is to come alongside and and and just be supportive.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And with some of the people, it's just being a friend.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Some people it's being an ear.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Some people it's like really like getting down and dirty and and like being there for them when times are tough or you know, things are things are pretty dark.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been really involved with that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And plus, just because of my age, there's a lot of people that came out late in life, didn't have like those role models that we could see coming out earlier.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I've seen is a lot of the men when they come out, it's really a second adolescence, a gay adolescence where they've been this one role family man their whole life.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden, like those like bonds isn't really the right word, but their their bonds are are gone and now they can go out and and be free.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's been amazing to watch because a lot of them in a way go so hard into it that it becomes a little self-destructive as well.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So they go from like one extreme to another extreme where it's like, do anything, it doesn't matter, like go hard all the time, you know, just go wild.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, some of the people like kind of mellow back down, and then some of the people, you know, stay kind of crazy.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a little bit of that wildness that you would have seen at like 18, 19, or 20.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And instead we're seeing at like 55, 60, 65, which again, like people have to go through their own thing, they have to like figure it out.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But that is something that I've seen a lot that it becomes like a little bit of an addiction that way, because it's like so new and so like amazing that they now can do this, and that sometimes it just goes a little bit probably the other way.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I it's interesting you're saying that because I've actually been reading on this and a few other topics.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: It is a fact, right?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it and that that it's it is, you know, a gay coming out adolescence, they get to those who are coming out later have to go through this experience that most of heterosexual kids did in their late teens or early teens.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh my understanding of it is yeah, they're gonna party, they're gonna have multiple sex partners, they're gonna do a whole bunch of stuff, they're embracing their new identity, they're, you know, maybe getting into the chems or do they're doing all sorts of different things.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't mean it's necessarily pathological or bad.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just an exploration that's required.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: But if it does get stuck, like if they get stuck in that pattern, that's that's where yeah, definitely it can become a little bit of an issue.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm I'm sober, I've been sober for 37 years.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I watch all of this happen like with sober eyes.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so that's so that's a little that's a a wild place to be, also, because I'm like I don't partake in that.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I believe me, I'm still out there dancing and have a good time, but it's different.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes I see things a little more clearly than a lot of the people do just because I'm not altered at all.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a lot, and as we know, in the gay community, there's a lot of drugs, there's a lot of alcohol, there's a lot of partying pretty hard.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's another, I guess, another temptation that is very strong too.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because like now you can just go and just go crazy, go wild, and you don't have to worry about the family, the kids, or whatever.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can do your own thing.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that I try to come alongside people also, and not necessarily preach sobriety, but just like again, just empathy being there for them.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I can imagine the the strain that you were put under, you know, and and based on my connections with you and and interactions with you, that you step into that role of mentor from a very big, open-hearted, empathetic kind of place, not judging and and being harsh and critical.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we all go through stuff, we we all manage our our emotions and our our anger or whatever it is in our own ways.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I just want to be there for them to help, you know, help in every any way I can, not to, not to judge and not to you know come along too harshly, but just to be there for them and and help support them.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes there there is like you know, times to talk about things a little bit tougher, but but it really is just to support them and and you know help us all along, you know, forward in our journey.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: One of my my mentors, Shazad Shaman, who is the head guy at Positive Intelligence, he he says really frankly, like life is hard, right?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we need that support of community of others and and tools and techniques to sort of get us through, especially the rough spots or the patterns that we're stuck in for sure.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you do this work with the the ski community as well, outriders.org.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've got that up on the screen, and you said you told a few hilarious stories and things.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, so what is that side of your experience looking like?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: That is so much fun.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: This group is is amazing.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we have about 375 members in our group, plus, there's people kind of that are around that as well.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: But we our organization, I'm on the board, I've been on the board for about five years, and uh we've grown it up to a good number, and we throw a bunch of events at locations around the northeast mostly, but also we do some out west and in Canada.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it's very, very boldly inclusive.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: We want anyone who's interested in being on the mountain, being part of a community to just come join us.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we have a lot of people who don't ski or snowboard or anything, but they come and hang out with us because we're a ton of fun.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we try to throw a bunch of, we have a bunch of weekend events.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have like six or seven weekend events.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: We try to partner with the mountains.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have pride weekends when we're up there and throw big bashes, really fun dances, and and the some of the mountains have been very, very welcoming and are so much fun.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they have like the at the bottom of the mountain, they have DJs, they have drag queens, they have drinks and food, and they hand out like pride flags to all the kids and all the people there, and we all ski down the mountain together, and then we have dances and and brunches and stuff.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a great organization and it's a great way to attract people to a community.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we have very strong language in our code of conduct that everyone has to sign that if like there's anything that goes against like anyone's like gender or anyone's process or identity, that that is this is not the place for you.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: It is a place for everyone to feel welcomed and to have a community.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we have like kind of every type of person in there, and we just have a great time.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a fun, that's a fun group.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds brilliant.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, kudos and and a good model for others.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like a conversation I had recently around activism and an elder in our community, and and you know, doing amazing and incredible, you know, change work out there from that activist point of view.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: But not all of us are aligned that way for activism.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's connection through community, through like a ski group can be it, or or I'm just joining the men's chorus here in Victoria.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're starting up a men's chorus.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know if I can sing, but I'm I'm gonna give it a try, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I love these examples of how we can, you know, build and foster community and support inclusivity along the way.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, wonderful.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: You've done all this change work yourself and and become a pillar in in the community.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: How do you level up?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: How does Steven maintain this joy of life?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like what really is lighting you up these days?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, aside from all these things you're already telling us.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm like most people, you have various things that that fill you up.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a couple things that I do, and I I I really ascribe to the mantra of I need to find the things that make me happy.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And when I know those things, when I'm feeling down, blue, or there's a struggle ahead, it's really those things that I go to.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things, and it's been kind of a lifelong thing that kept me sane, I think, during all the time when I was going through conversion therapy and all that was motion and activity.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I love to be active.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't play the sports like I used to because I have had a bunch of injuries from those sports, but I still hike a ton, I still work out, I still trail run.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: In the summer, I go out and paddleboard, go for walks, anything, just to get outside, be in nature.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Even when it's cold out, it's hot, it doesn't matter.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: That is one of the things that kind of centers me.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it gives my mind time to just like churn on things and think.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And even when I don't think I'm thinking about stuff, I'm thinking about stuff while I'm out there.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the things.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then also it's really the community that I have built over time, and the people who've come alongside me, that is where I get a lot of my strength and energy.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I pour into them, and in turn, they pour into me.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a great partner who is like level.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm more like this, and he's just like this.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: He's just like steady and fun and and stuff like that.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really a lot of it's the people, the people that I built a community with that uh support me through all the hard times, and my family.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: My family, my kids, I talk to them almost every day, and my sisters and and stuff like that.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is that kind of grounding that I have, that they've been there through everything with me.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's that's really important for me as well.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love the getting out and sort of getting physical, because I think one of the things that can happen, especially with men, we can get so in our heads and get so I do this because it's left brain kind of stuff, right?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like just stuck in that logical thinking, analyzing.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta figure it out, I gotta fix it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like maybe go for a walk, you know, maybe go out into nature.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then and then whatever that thing is you're ruminating on, it might all of a sudden the answer might just be there, you know.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm all about energy and whatever you can do to move energy where it where it's stuck in your body or up here, like move it, move it.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's that's wonderful.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I learned, I learned it from a runner and a lot of like long distance runners and especially like super ultras, like they're usually very smart people.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times they're they're mathematics and they're they're like very intelligent.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the one of the guys who I knew was telling me about how when you are, especially trail running, um, when you have to find your footing, it's a puzzle the whole time.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens is your mind is working on the puzzle of like foot placement and going up or down or this or that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And your mind's working on that.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: But the whole time that your mind is working on these things, the rest of your mind, your subconscious, is working on all those other puzzles that you're trying not to think about or that are in the back of your mind all the time.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually working on those things.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: It gives your mind a chance to be free of like concentration, and it just kind of works on those things as your mind is busy with other stuff.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that so much to be true in my life.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it sounds it sounds like you know, this thing.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I used to be really hard ass about meditation.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's no such thing as moving meditation.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be sitting with a tall spine and you're you need to be, you know, now I understand, you know, takes a while, you know, that no movement, what you just described was perfect because that is a meditative state where you're focused on, you know, it doesn't have to be eyes closed, focusing on your breath.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: It can be other things, right?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: You said earlier that when you're feeling off or sad or whatever, there's certain things that you go to.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a process that you if someone's listening or watching this and they're kind of like, I don't even know how to do that?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it that you do when you when you want to find a like a go-to thing that's gonna get you out of a funk or whatever?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a process that you use?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the hardest things is to identify that that's where you are.
• 39:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're so busy and there's things to do, and you're going about your day or whatever, and you feel that pressure or that I can use identify it because I can tell in like everything from like how my jaw is set to how I respond to people, if I'm short or if I'm driving and I'm like super anxious about something.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: It usually comes out in different ways.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's when I know, like, okay, something's not right.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: I might not know what it is, but I need to then go to those things that make me like process and make me happy and make me like get to a better place so I can then deal with those other issues or those other thoughts or stresses.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that for me is like the biggest thing is identifying it.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then I go to those other places, whether it's with people who I know are that kind of support.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you and you kind of know after a while, like, okay, Johnny is there for, you know, when I want to just have a good time, I need to just go release.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: But Jim over there, he's the one that I need to talk to.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he's the one that will like sit me down and be like, all right, let's go through this.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or like you kind of learn who those people are.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of have to identify where you are.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you do that, then you can either sometimes it's just, I gotta get out.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: I just got to get out and I gotta go, you know, hike for seven miles and not talk to a single person for a while.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then you come back changed.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's that process for me that I've learned over years, and that people like if if someone's trying to figure that out, like you you have to start to learn who you are and how you how you work in a way.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are your responses and what do those responses mean?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know when I'm snippy, it's because there's something going on, yeah, like that I need to address.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: So there's different things that I think people can figure out.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of that sort of awareness thing, and and just how do you figure out like your example of my body starts to feel different when X is happening, right?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like that level of awareness is so good, and it can be challenging for some of us because we just get into patterns.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why am I feeling angry or lashing out at my partner all of a sudden?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that might be the moment to kind of like pause and go, hmm, you know, it's probably not about your partner, right?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but but sometimes that that deeper self-inquiry stuff can be a little bit spooky, yeah.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and it's true, right?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: It just is.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's but we can all do it, right?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: We can all do do that self-reflection, makes us better people, showing up for others, showing up for ourselves.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about you, you clearly have a lot of fun in who who you've become and how you're living your life these days.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: The fun in the costuming, that sort of thing, the fun in your your ski weekends.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else that we need to know about that you could inspire us about having more fun?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I would say I I think I mentioned a little bit, but like dancing.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would think one of the things I love is being out on the water.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: That like we we go and we just anchor places, we just get like some subs, a sandwich, you know, some drinks or whatever, and we go sit on the boat and just watch the sun go down, or just let nature kind of speak to you.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's one of my favorite things.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's it's pretty universal that like having being outside, having nature, having the sunsets, the beauty, like having that really like speak to you and reach out to you and stuff like that.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a calming influence on our lives.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like when we're just in a city all the time, like that's I love that too.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: But like you sometimes you need to get away to like center yourself and and calm down.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those are a lot of the things, but I mean, I love cooking, I love I like baking a lot.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Baking is fun, yeah.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's so much fun, and just being creative in that.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know I really liked that.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in Los Angeles and near the beach and in Ventura, and I always cooked on barbecues.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know how to cook in a kitchen because we always just cooked outside.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and my wife did tons of things like to prep the food and prep that, but I always cooked outside.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, like moving here, I I didn't know how to really use a stove.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I did, but like I just didn't use it much.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: I always cooked everything outside.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's actually been really fun for me to learn how to how to be super creative in my in my food and like try to make something that's a basic dish into something that's really wow.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I like it in my language.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: I that's exactly I love that creative aspect too.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what I find really interesting and powerful about what you're sharing about fun, the simplicity of it.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think maybe sometimes we we we pine for you know the decades past or the years past where we were out there, fun meant a night in the bar.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, X number of drinks and maybe some hookups here and there and all of that stuff, but it can evolve, right?
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can change.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Fun can take on a much more you know quiet, even keel, like your partner, an even keel kind of resonance as opposed to drama queen kind of stuff.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And really, I mean, we still go out and we go to bars, we go dancing, we do all that stuff.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think tonight we're going to to musical bingo.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh nice.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so that's really fun.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like we do all kinds of stuff like that.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I just I like it, doesn't have to be like a grand trip to be fun.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you can find fun in in almost anything, just being creative and just like trying to be present in whatever is going on in your life or whatever is around you.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can find fun at anywhere.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is something I think is probably me from when I was young.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I always have been like that, like kind of geared that way, went through some hard times, but I just tried to always be me, like you know, not forget that.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it makes for a good escape sometimes from harsh realities, and it also just lightens the load and lightens the world, I think, for those around you too.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that the idea of presence is so interesting and challenging, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we be present?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do we not be like ruminating and fretting about the past and projecting this icky stuff into the future?
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're good stuff.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how how do we how do we just be?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like that, that that's a bit of the I think the learning that that we get to go through and and the wisdom that that we get to start to embrace at this stage in life.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a good segue to the next segment, which is really about wisdom.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: You've you've experienced a lot.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we all have, right?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: We all have our stories, we all have our challenges, our dramas, and and our traumas.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: And here we are, we survive, you know, gay men are our survivors, you know.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And in that, those experiences come comes wisdom.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: So share with us, you know, a nugget, some wisdom that that you would like to put out there in terms of guys listening who who maybe aren't at that place of you know, a sanguine, easy flow in life, maybe, maybe needing a little bit of you know, input or suggestions in terms of hmm could look like this.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good question.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's so different for each person to like where they are and what what they've gone through.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I would have to say that has had a big effect on me and in keeping perspective, because perspective I think is a huge thing in in driving how we react to things.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: My my uncle is a gay man, he just passed away two months ago.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he grew up in the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area, and he came out when he was young.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: He was actually in the Navy and came out, and he was one of those people in the in the late 60s and 70s who and 80s and 90s who were the kind of trailblazers for us, who were the people that had to go through the worst of the worst.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one of the things he said to me, actually not that long ago, he said to me that they had to be visible so people like me could have a life.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things that I remember about him and his partner, his husband, was that they had to go through so much from my own family, from their own family.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: They had to go through, they were shunned for many years, and they just stayed consistent and strong and and were visible to be there for people, to be a light in the community, to like show up even when it was hard.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's in a way how I've tried to live my life is to be that light and to show up even when it's hard.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because it does get hard sometimes, right?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they had it harder, I think.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not I think they had it harder than than we do.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: We all have hard situations, but like the things that they had to go through, the stories that they have is and and he gave back, they gave back to their community.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: My uncle was one of the people that developed software that tracked viral loads and HIV medications to see what worked and what didn't work back in the in the late 80s, early 90s, and they sold it to the CDC and all the hospital networks so they could track and to come up with a cocktail that ended up making people able to live that had HIV.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that was his software.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: And like that's pretty cool.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: That what a gift, what a gift to us.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, wow, that's amazing.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me think a little bit too about legacy, like you know, wow, that's just such a powerful share that you just gave us.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Any uh any final words that you want to share here with us?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I I kind of look at life as in some ways like in two-year segments.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when I moved to Boston, like I figured it was gonna take me two years to like find community.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then after those two years, I found community.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Was like, all right, it's gonna take me two years to like develop deeper friendships, and then it was gonna take me a couple years after that to like like be solid and start like leading things and and like making a difference and all that stuff.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think sometimes we look at things like the long road, like it's forever, you know, however we are right now is how it's gonna be forever.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when you break it down, it doesn't have to be two years or whatever, but that's kind of how I look at things.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: But but just to look at life in segments and to just know that things can change and things do change.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And like recently I had back surgery, I had three vertebrae fused in my lower back, and it was very significant.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I had used a walker for a long time, and and it was, you know, for someone who's very active, it's it's difficult.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: But that same thing, I knew like in a year, I'm gonna be at this point, and in two years, I'm gonna be back.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm almost at two years now, actually.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm at two years right now.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: And like the things that I'm able to do now, I'm I'm shocked.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: So like just just knowing that there's segments in life, and you just need to keep moving forward and keep moving through those segments, and it things do change if we keep working on them.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's probably my wisdom that I keep for myself a lot of times.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't talk about that very often, but just that there are segments in life and it's like those things aren't forever, and you just need to keep moving forward through those segments.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that mantra, this too will change, right?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: If we can come back to that when we're feeling in the thick of it, you know, and and in the the yoga tradition, there's the image of the lotus riding out rising out of the mud.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: The mud can sometimes be our lives, right?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, wonderful.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to I want to thank you so much for uh for this conversation.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really good.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna put the outriders that's with a why if you're listening.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's out r-y-d-e-r-s.org and gayfathersboston.org are the two organizations that Stephen's involved with.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again, Stephen.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: And wow, what a what a wonderful story.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was that was great.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you to our guests today, and thank you for listening.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: If what you heard landed with you, if you felt seen, heard, inspired to make a shift, want to hear about it.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Get back to me on one of our platforms or where you're listening to or seeing this.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know another man over 50 who you think would benefit from hearing this, share it with them, please.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: This community grows when we show up for each other.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can find more essays on these topics, reflections, and such at our Substack account.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Watch for other content on our YouTube channel, and stay connected to us through our school platform.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we engage and are building our community.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, the second half of life isn't the beginning of the end.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: For many of us, it's the moment life finally begins to open up.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're not alone in this.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're in it together.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you next time in the Wisdom Tribe.