Latest / Alive & Kicking: Stories of Waking Up with Kay Eck / Interview with Sage Acharya | Awakening and Conscious Relationships

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Interview with Sage Acharya | Awakening and Conscious Relationships · Alive & Kicking: Stories of Waking Up with Kay Eck

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Kay Eck, and welcome to my podcast, Alive and Kicking: Stories of Waking Up.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the podcast, everybody.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited to have with us today my friend Sage Ataria.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sage and I have known each other for a few years now.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: We have the good fortune of being near neighbors, so we've gotten to meet in person a few times, which is somewhat unusual for my guests, are usually all spread out all over the place.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to welcome you, Sage.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: So nice to be here.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be with you today because we haven't actually talked in a while.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if we've ever talked about your background in um in this context.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that'll be fun.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so yeah, let's get started.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear you talk a little bit about your upbringing.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're obvious obviously British, and um let's hear a little bit about that and how you came to the States.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I was born and brought up in England, London, um, and uh I was there for 25 years of my life.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was born into an Indian family, what we call Asian now.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, had one young sister, grew up mostly in Harrow, so we didn't move anywhere, we were in one place.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, spending 25 years there, it was very difficult to come to a new country and start from fresh because I was so used to that environment.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when I describe myself, when people say, Well, you know, are you Indian, British?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel I'm you know more British than Indian, although we were brought up with um you know uh Indian rituals, customs, um, we were around a lot of other Indians um and uh in the area because our actually our town is filled with Indians, and a lot of them came straight from um East Africa, actually.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So they were East African Indians.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we grew up in a neighborhood where everything was very tight-knit.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: People would come around our house and just pop in.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there wasn't like, you know, are you free?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are you available?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like okay, we're just gonna kind of go over.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So my sister and I were exposed to a lot of different people coming and going.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my parents were very social and very community-oriented, so um, you know, they would stay in touch with extended family too, not just immediate family.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we had almost like this whole tribe of people around us.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was around my cousins and aunts and uncles, and my cousins were actually um my friends, like my friends.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: That was really, really nice.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't, I didn't feel lonely at all during that time.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, the downside of that though was um that because people were coming and going, um, there were there was a lot of different energies that we had to be around, different people's energies.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and a few of them would come regularly, and they had suffered from some sort of depression or mood disorder.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time we didn't know how unconsciously we were taking that in, but my my sister and I took that in.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and as empaths, you know, um, we felt all of that but didn't know how to um articulate it.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I you know that's that's kind of the gist of how you know we were brought up.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I can talk a little bit about my mum and dad in terms of that part of my upbringing and what they taught us.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, please, please do.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so with my dad, I've shared this with you too, Kate, and um you said something that really resonated with me when we were having that conversation.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: This was by text message, I think.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, my dad um was quite rigid in his way of parenting.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and a lot of his um the way he talked to us was uh we call it my sister and I call it shoulds.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So he would um oh you know, you shouldn't feel like that, you shouldn't be thinking like that.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that led to obviously a lot of suppression, um, not knowing, okay, is this acceptable?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is this not acceptable?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sort of second-guessing art.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: There wasn't any guidance, it was more of you should be doing this, but it wasn't like guidance in terms of how to do it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we were left with that.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember you saying that, you know, your dad was obviously a great, like, you know, maybe catalyst or uh a great teacher that helped you to sort of see um what the shoulds were and then work with the shoulds in a way where um I don't know how to just I don't know exactly what you said, but it was something really profound and it just resonated with me.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Yeah, you know, he was a great teacher, he was a great teacher when it came to the shoulds and perfectionism, and and you know, the second half of my life has been trying to unravel some of those shoulds and and noticing mindfully where those shoulds still exist.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about um how I parent, that's gonna come up.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all related.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's really interesting that you know it to be conscious on this path is to recognize how your childhood affected you.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And but but you don't we think of it like, oh yeah, my mom was this, my dad was that, and so I'm this.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't think about um the environment so much that we grew up in and the people we were exposed to, you know, we kind of that's kind of like in the background, but when you're talking about that, I realize how powerful that experience can be for young um children who are empathic.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So um do you how did that um did that affect you and your sister the same?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or did you when was when did you become conscious of that um causing some effect in your life?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I would say I became aware of it when I moved to the States because um this is where I had time to reflect um because there wasn't family around, there was there weren't those distractions.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I could actually sit and kind of contemplate.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I had a lot of time to contemplate because I couldn't work the first couple of years and I wasn't studying either for a while.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's when I realized that okay, those energies probably did affect me in some way, and like how did they affect me, or how did I take those in?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that manifest now in my behavior or how I feel?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then with my sister and I, it affected us differently.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for me, we were both empaths, um, and we still are, um, but um at that time I was probably a little bit more social, and I didn't have um any social anxiety at that time, or not whereas my sister did suffer from social anxiety, and and being in that environment um with people just coming and going, the phone constantly ringing, it was really difficult for her.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she became more aware of it earlier on of how those energies were affecting her.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I blocked it during that time.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: That was probably my survival technique to get through it.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but when I came here, I started to feel a lot of depression, and I had to start asking myself the question is this mine?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's when I started to become a bit more aware.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is this my depression or is this stuff that I could have picked up over the years?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: That is an accumulation.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that environment must have felt really chaotic to her.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you could have you could see it also as being a very jubilant atmosphere, but it's all in in how your how your your makeup and how you are able to deal with that.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, your parents probably thought they were giving you like super happy, you know, exciting life with lots of people and sharing and whatnot.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And for your sister and for you, um, to a lesser extent, was like, ah, too much.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I I sort of thrived in that environment to a certain degree.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed people coming around.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: My mom tells me about an early memory, uh, you know, that what uh like early um childhood when when someone would leave, they would come to our house, they would leave, and I would say to my mom, tell them not to go, tell them not to go.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I was I loved it, I loved having people around, but um I know that I was exposed to a lot that did feel uncomfortable, um, and I just didn't consciously realize it at that time.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, did you come to the States um by yourself?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, what actually happened was um my husband and I had been dating for six years in England, he's also from England, and he moved here looking for a job.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually he did a course here, did a computer course here first, and then he found a job.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And this happened really quickly, so I didn't even realize you know that his life would start to appear here, and I was quite naive at that time.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Okay, let's just go with the flow, see what happens.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he sure enough, he got a job and he said, Sage, um, I'm moving here, and if we want to get married, then you know we need to start a life here.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I followed.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: What was that like?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Was that was that a shocking moment for you?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, I think when I was getting married, because he came back, so he'd lived here for a year and we were apart for a year, and then he came back, and then we did the marriage ceremony.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we didn't actually do the Hindu ceremony that got cancelled, but we did like a marriage stroke, going away reception.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Even then, I think I wasn't fully letting it in.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't quite know the implications or what this meant.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And until I actually physically moved here, that's when it hit me like a wave like, whoa, I'm away from my family.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is tough, you know, because I think we romanticize things sometimes.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, things are gonna be great, you know.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting married, starting a new life, and I I feel like I might have done some of that.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was this wake-up call as soon as I got got here.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, getting married is hard enough.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's a whole new way of life.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Getting married and moving to a completely different culture where you do not know anybody and you have no support system, that must have been quite a shock.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: How did you take that?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and that's where the depression kicked in.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's when because I couldn't work.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I the visa that I was on was a marriage visa, and he was on an H1 visa, which is just a work permit, so he didn't have a green card or anything.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I couldn't do any of that.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we were in an apartment at that time in Woodridge, and it was a one-bedroom apartment.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So he'll go to work and I'd be by myself.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was tough because how do you meet people?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wasn't the type to go and knock on someone's door and hey, I just moved in.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: They probably would have been like, what the heck?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: We don't do that here.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely different to what it's like in England.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: In England, you could probably do that, especially in our neighborhood.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, I couldn't do that here.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the depression kicked in, and I oh, it was it was really, I would say for the first two years of my life here, I was depressed.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I started to come out of it only when I started to take a course in computing, which my husband encouraged me to do because he said that's the quickest way for you to get an H1B work permit.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I didn't really enjoy it, but I did it anyway.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually did get a job, but they um denied the visa because I didn't have a computer science degree.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they said we sorry, we can't give you the visa, even if you've got a job.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so at that point, and this is where I think my life evolved in a completely different direction.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: I had the choice of what I was gonna do next.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided to do my master's in um community counseling um at NIU, and that was just the best thing that happened to me, one of the best things I should say.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so wow, your life took a completely different turn, but it had to like come up against a brick wall, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Before before you were able to, you know, go in a different direction.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how you would describe it?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: That brick wall was that denying of that visa, and hey, you know, this door's closed for you, um, so you can't work, so you've got to decide now what to do.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, with you know, with hindsight, it was the best thing, but at that time it was tough.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, wow.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you um became um a therapist, and were you working as a therapist before your children came along?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, I was.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I worked for two years before my first child was born.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about your jer your girls.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um, my oldest, um, we named her India.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: She was born as India, but now we call her Madison or Maddy for short.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: She wanted to change her name.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: But she was born in 2006, so that was two years after um I got my master's degree.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um, at the time I was pregnant with her, I was also taking um a licensure exam to get qualified in the state of Illinois.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when she was born, I took some time off.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and three years for about three years, I was at home with her the first three years.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um that I was lucky or blessed, I should say, because my parents were able to come for the first month to help me out, um, which was so great because my mum was there to help me with the nighttime feedings, and yeah, you remember those days, Kay?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and all of that.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I had I did have support for the first month, but as soon as they left, that's when again it hit me.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, you know, I've got this child to take care of, and you know, I was adamant to not work at the same time.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my mum also, when she had us, she didn't work for the longest time.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: She babysat from home, but she was um an at-home um at home most of the time.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I wanted to do that as well.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was the first three years, and then I opened up my private practice.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So when your first daughter was born, you had this convergence of parenting because you became a parent and your parents were with you at the time.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: How was that experience?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh, that's a good question.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't especially when you know, with the first child, your sense of yourself is you don't even have a sense of yourself as a parent.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're just stepping into that.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it that is one that's like get getting on a skateboard at the age of 45, if you ask me.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's like super wobbly and scary.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it is, and you know, I feel like I might have blocked some of that out because when I touch into it now, I know it was a struggle.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I did not know what I was doing, like most parents with their first child.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was quite anxious actually and restless.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's when I realized, oh, I didn't even know that I had anxiety.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you know how it changes when you have that first one and you're responsible for this being.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I had a lot of support for my husband too.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: He's very much of an involved father, so um he would help me, you know, um take over at times so I could have breaks, but it was still very difficult not having a community to support us.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was just him and I.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: My first baby.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did a how did becoming a parent help you reflect on how you were parented?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say that my husband and I um we had the this value of uh, you know, our kids come above everything, everything.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like their their emotional well-being and their mental well-being is what we want to put first, and we want to be conscious parents, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and that term is being conscious of how our um wounds um play a part in how we parent.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we became aware of that, I would say, more so later on, not at the beginning stages of when my um daughter was a baby up until probably maybe when she was like five or six, I think we became a little bit more conscious of how that plays out.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at that point, you know, there was just looking at my parenting.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um I had I had probably defined the um my parents as being like the best caring parents, you know, the ones that who provided everything for me, and they did, you know, and they did, they were they are still very, very caring, provided everything, but there was this one piece that I I felt was missing that my husband and I were trying to um do with our kids, and that's the emotional and mental well well-being, you know, the boundaries, putting in the boundaries in terms of okay, um emotionally, what's going to be healthy for them?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like discerning, discerning all of that.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was a new way.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it felt scary and new, but we knew we had to do this together because it was a really important work.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is so so potent because you know, there was there has been a switching, there's some kind of switchover that has occurred where you know the the children do become their raising becomes a priority, and that's just not the way our society worked prior to, you know, it wasn't that long ago.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, how has being a conscious parent, and I want to talk about you and your husband's conscious relationship as well, but how has been um how has being a conscious parent, um, how has that been?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: What what what are the challenges and what are the what are the benefits?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, um I think let's let me start with the challenges first.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: The challenges are um society.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I feel society is the biggest challenge for us because society tells us the shoulds, right?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you should be putting their education first and you should be putting all of these other things first above their mental and emotional health, even.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and especially in our culture, education is seen as that number one.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying education isn't important, but we've had many conversations with other friends who are also parents, in terms of, well, yeah, we do care about our kids' education, but for example, if they don't choose to follow the traditional path that society expects them to follow, we're gonna be okay with that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna meet them there at that place, and so I feel society has been the biggest challenge for me, you know, like what other people think about our conscious parenting, because there's a lot of judgment around, and I can feel it overtly and covertly.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can sense how others are actually judging us.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I know that there's a lot of judgment around our parenting in terms of well, you're letting your kids sort of all walk all over you.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so is that how you would describe what where the judgment lies?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are there I mean, obviously your children are not endangering themselves or others or you, so it's like hard to even imagine like why why would they even be interested, you know, in your parenting if it doesn't really even affect them, right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so how does that can you offer some specifics?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm trying to think off the top of my head.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, let me talk about my daughter's name change because that that's been a big one.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um because she, you know, she's always got a free spirit right from um since she was a baby.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Really, that temperament's always been there.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um she knew during elementary school that she didn't like her name, and it wasn't just I don't like my name, it was that I, you know, I'm sensing around me some um subtle prejudice or racism around my name.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she couldn't articulate that verbally, but she was sensing it, and she's very observant, so she could tell from her school, you know, like people would say, Oh, to her, for example, oh, your name's India, you you're from India, and she has no uh link or any affiliation to the country India at all, because one, you know, we're very my husband and I very British, so we're not very Indian Indian, and then she's never been to the country, so she felt like that was almost like um labeling.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we my husband and I noticed how she was suffering as a result of having this name, and we thought, you know, maybe it's a phase, we'll give it some time, maybe she'll change her mind and you know get used to her name.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it didn't that didn't happen.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So for about two years, she was still very unhappy with the name.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And before middle school, um, going into a new school, she said, Mom and dad, I really want to change my name.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go into this new school with a new name, you know, that people know me as Madison or Maddy for short, um, rather than India.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so we said, sure, you know, that that's fine, you know, if that's what makes you happy, if that's something that is gonna help you to it's not just about feeling better, but it to help you cope um with what's going on, and also it, you know, and this is where it becomes tricky because you know, we didn't want her to have other people's judgments influence her, but at the same time, we want to make space for the fact that at that age, obviously, other people's judgments are going to affect her, and how do they affect her emotionally and mentally?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it seemed to be pretty intense.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we said, okay, her mental emotional well-being is important to us, so we're gonna allow her to change her name, even though we couldn't do it um by uh de poll, like um change it um her birth name legally.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: We did ask the teachers to call her Madison and everyone moving forward to call her Madison.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that was an example of something that we did, we felt like was more conscious parenting, whereas other parents could have probably said, no, you're going to do, you're gonna keep that name, right?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like we named you that, you're gonna we're gonna keep you have to keep that name.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've heard we've heard comments like that from others.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and that's been a challenge because I've also been brought up to care about what other people think, so I've had to really work on that piece of myself.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's it's funny how sometimes your children lead the way in areas that you need to um look at for yourself.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: I always I've always said like the more you have to learn, the more kids yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had four, so that tells you a little bit about how much how dumb I was.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: A lot though, after four kids.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I've learned a lot.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think it's really interesting.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: This was a question that I was gonna ask you was whether your children are more conscious um than you were at their ages.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it would certainly seem that Madison needed her name to reflect who she felt she was.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she's an American, she's American and she's growing up in the suburbs, and she, you know, that's her sense of herself, and she wants a name that reflects it.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's actually a highly conscious choice given that she's you know 13 or 12 or what whatever at the time.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, but how does that compare to how you were at that age?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, definitely.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: They are, she definitely, and my youngest one, they're both um much more conscious than I was at that age.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: At that age, I would say I was gullible, I was naive, I wasn't in touch with my own emotions because I was brought up around the shoulds.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't be feeling like that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm gonna push that away.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna get a sense into who I truly am.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I didn't have a strong sense of self at all when I was younger, and both of them, both of my girls have a very strong sense of self.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that has definitely been a teaching moment for me because um I've I've had to look at my um weak sense of self that was developed as a child, and say, okay, how do you know what work do I need to do to strengthen that sense of self so I can be that the parent that my child needs?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, isn't that funny?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that happens.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is really, really powerful.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: So if if our children are more self-aware, and I would agree so much that my children are so much more self-aware than I was at their ages, why isn't it easier?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's a great question.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that um when someone is um self-aware, they're very strong.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's a strong energy, you know.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been told my oldest daughter, Madison, has these um animal spirits, archetypes that are very strong in in nature.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: So Jaguar, um, I think King Cobra was another one, and I feel that energy is so strong, and then we have our energy as a parent who whose energy we're still we're still developing, right?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there's this this um imbalance, I feel, of the energies.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And our mind is telling us this person's younger than us, this is our child, we should know better than them.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have all of this dialogue going on in your mind, I should know better than them.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: They need to listen to me, and I think that's where the friction comes in until we know that okay, wait, you know, this generation knows so much more.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a mental knowing, it's it's it's something else, yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we can make space for that.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think making space for that is what helps us to not create that friction in our relationship.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I think that my life got exponentially easier when I realized that my children had more to teach me than I had to teach them.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Then it was like, wow, that was a switch that got flipped that made my life so much better.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: So much better and so much easier.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that begs the question, because your parents are still living.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, has that shifted your relationship with your parents?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, but yes, and I would say in in both directions, um I've had to work through a lot of resentment and anger towards them.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I've never really, you know, talked to them about it, but I've more so worked through it internally to let go of um some of the ways that they couldn't be there for me, but also forgive that because they didn't know any better.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they were not conscious parents.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we're a little bit more conscious because our kids are teaching us.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much we taught them.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we did in some ways to teach them to be conscious parents too.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I would say the way that my relationship with my parents now has developed is um more through compassionate eyes of forgiveness.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's not always like that.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some days I'm still angry and resentful when I can't have that deep conversation with them.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: The conversations that I have with my kids are are so much deeper than the conversations that I have with my parents.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if they can't meet me there, I have to meet them where they're at.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it there's a lot of I feel like maybe it's taught me to be more accepting of where they are, work through the resentment and the anger internally of that inner child who didn't get what she needed at that time.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and our our kids highlight that for us, don't they?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: That when we're parenting them, it highlights for us, oh okay, this is a different way.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when we see the results of that parenting, the conscious parenting, and there's so many gems of wisdom and connection and bonding, and then you think, Oh, there's that disappointment that comes up.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have this with my parents, and I may never have it, and that's okay, yeah.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so that's kind of what my process has been through that.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, have your parents had um feelings and opinions about how you're raising your children, and have they felt free to express that?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then what do you do with it?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So once a year they come um in the summer for about a month, and we always get the talk and the you know, well, you know, let's sit you guys down.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're concerned about this and we're concerned about that, and we're concerned about you know how your oldest has some of these emotional outbursts.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: For example, that's been one conversation, and you know, um, it really upsets us to see that, and you know, I've had some compassion around it and and almost um been in the parental role at those times where I've had to talk them through and say, I know this is hard for you guys to see, but there's nothing wrong here, there's nothing wrong with her displaying these strong emotions in our house.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: We have created an environment for her to do that, and in fact, it's quite healthy because she can have that out there and we can talk through it afterwards, you know.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's going on?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, let's talk about this, and so um they've you know initially come with advice, and then we've sort of become their teacher and said, Well, this is kind of how it is for us, and at that time they they're open to listening to it, but I know that their shoulds and their old beliefs, you know, do resurface again and again because every year we have this talk.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I mean, what's really important I want to point out is that if you hadn't done your work of healing your inner child, their judgment of you as a parent would have triggered you, but instead you're able to allow that you can do what you feel is right and your parents can be worried about it, and it's not it's not about you necessarily because you're healed, you're good.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and and to be honest, that's taken a long time.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would say in the past year is when I've really um felt that you know what, I'm I'm I'm doing what I need to do.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: My husband and I are doing what we need to do, and it's okay if they don't agree with it, but prior to that, I was very um because our our um upbringing was very enmeshed as well, so I've had to deal with some of that enmeshment and codependency as well.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a lot of times where I did take it very personally, and it hurt me that they would view me like this and not approve of my parenting.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the past year I've been able to, I would say the past year has been really transformate uh transformational when it comes to um unhooking from codependency and enmeshment from a lot of people, not just from my parents, but from friends and yeah, other people in my life.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really hard work, isn't it?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people just don't want to do it, you know.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: They just what is the reason that you think they don't want to do it?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: That they don't want to do the um work of unhooking from the codependency and enmeshement.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I think um it is that it is that tribal mentality, I think, partly.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's that sense of wanting to belong, you know, and and that's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that's one of our survival things that we uh need a sense of belonging and love from others, and that's the way that we've been taught of how to feel that and how to get it is through codependency or enmeshment.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: So now, when when we're trying to separate from that, sometimes there's this, oh, does that person not care about me?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do I not belong with this person?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that they're trying to unhook from this codependency piece, but it I think when we really um, and I'm still on this path, so I'm still learning, but um, I feel like when we're able to do that, that that relationship is so much more healthier, right?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because now you're choosing to be with that person instead of relying on the need for belonging, and the obligation, and yes, yes, and you're kind of in a unique position to be walking your own path and then also to be an observer of how others are walking a similar path through your through your practice.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um so can you talk a little bit about that?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're I consider you to be kind of a new type of therapist.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily, you know, I think it's different, but maybe you know more about how it is actually different.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's a good question.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so being a therapist, um, yeah, I do I am exposed to a lot of clients who are enmeshed, codependent.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, their wounds obviously um have been so intense that that's what speaks, you know, mostly are their wounds, their wounding.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been exposed to that directly with my clients.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's reflected, it's like a mirror, so that's reflected on me, you know.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I maybe I've also got some of that wounding too, you know, the collective wounding.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and where where is that wounding, you know, and what do I need to do to um heal it or uh work through it?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how can I be more mindful of that so that doesn't play out in my sessions with my clients?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because our own wounding as therapists, too, can totally be projected onto our clients.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not healthy.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even though it's an opportunity, it's an opportunity to work through it, but it's not healthy because they've come in to see us to work through their stuff, and they need us to be completely present in a way that allows for every part of their being to exist.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it must take so much courage for a therapist to admit that they have work to do, you know, because you want to be an authority, you want to be, you know, we all want to like feel like we know what we're talking about.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we call it the imposter syndrome, yes, yeah.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I would think that as a therapist, that would be really hard and courageous work to do.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, um, you know, I see a lot of uh therapists, and this is also that makes me think and makes me reflect when I see other therapists trying to be in that professional um, you know, I know best role.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I know, I don't know.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, there's a lot that I don't know, and that's why um when I'm doing therapy, I don't prepare for my sessions at all.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: I just um what I mean by that is I don't intellectually prepare to say, well, I'm gonna take the client here, here, there, you know, this way.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna coax that client this way, that way.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm completely client-centered, so whoever shows up in that room at that time, that's who I will meet where they're at, and not have this hierarchy of I know better, and see where I can take them on a sensory, mindful level.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's kind of like a flow process.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've um explained that to one of my friends who's also a therapist.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: I said it's like my meditation sometimes.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm meditating in my in my sessions because um I'm I'm really connecting to that place of being, my own being and their being, and trying to meet them there.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's where that ego then doesn't exist, right?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where that professional or whoever however we label ourselves as therapists, um, yeah, is not present in that moment, and that's where the the great work gets done.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it feels more like a partnership rather than like an authority and a subject.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's really beautiful.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's really beautiful.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that a recognized um development in the world of therapy?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say partly, but we've still got a long way to go.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because uh client client centered therapy, I feel is the it's Carl uh Rogers who developed client centered therapy, and he I think he developed this in the 1960s.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: So he knew he was very advanced.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's a lot of people who um, you know, don't that have that theoretical orientation.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um But slowly it's moving that way.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it also depends on the therapist and their practices.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've always been a spiritual, I know we don't like to label it, but I don't like to label it, I should say spiritual person because we're all spiritual, really.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been on this spiritual path for quite some time, and that's played a huge influence in um not wanting to treat anyone um less equal than me.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to talk a little bit, if we can, about your relationship.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um because I'm really interested in conscious partnerships.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um I've seen some interactions between you and your husband online, and I'm like, wow, that's really cool that you guys can speak to each other in that way.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um kind of like you know, holding each other to account, I guess, in public.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um were you and your husband's name is Jay, right?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Jay.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: You um it's Jay-Sh, but he does go by Jay.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so was Jay um already on the path when you met, or did you evolve together?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: How part of that?
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, so he wasn't on the spiritual path at all.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, his parents were a little bit religious, but even then not greatly religious.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they were brought up um as a as Hindus.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: So he had a little bit of background and religious background, um, but spiritually he wasn't on the path at all.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I feel like we've evolved together um since coming to the States, um, not before then, because there were a lot of obstacles in England to prevent us from meeting there in that place.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: So being here has had that given us that opportunity to do this, but more so my spiritual practices.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to take the the um uh credit for it, but um, my spiritual practices um he's been open to me sharing those with him, so he's always been open to hearing about it.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: He's an intellect, so you know.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are you doing, Sage?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so what's this mindfulness practice that you're doing?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I've been on many, many, many spiritual paths, I've been through so many, and I've shared that with him.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, this is what I'm getting from it, and he's always been encouraging of that, you know, he's supported me financially, he's supported me physically, like I've been on meditation retreats where he's taking care of the kids while I'm gone.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he's got this open at openness and curiosity about him, which has really played a huge role in supporting me.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel if he hadn't had that um for my practices, I feel like I would have suppressed some of it in order to fit in with him.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that happens.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, so he's you know, credit to him, he's been very open and curious about it, and and he doesn't practice as much as I do, like he won't practice meditation, for example, which is fine.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: But um, he is he's recently, I would say last couple of years, he started to practice um emotional intelligence and and connecting with his emotions physically.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: So allowing, you know, sensing into where he feels sadness or anxiety or whatever is showing up for him, um, because he's been this intellect for so long, like rational mind, cure curious, um, but not been embodied.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that embodiment process is happening for him, I would say, the last couple of years, and he's learning so much from it.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: But that's because he's been open, he's been open to exploring these new ways.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel that also he's trusted me to say, okay, Sage's spiritual path has I see the benefits of it, you know.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: I see like I've studied the Eightfold Path, the Buddhism Eightfold Path, and how to incorporate that in our day-to-day living, you know, um, in speech, in you know, all of that.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he's seen the benefits of it on not just our relationship, but on the kids mainly.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why he's been open to learning a little bit more.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, did he step onto that path of emotional intelligence on his own?
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Was that his choice?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: And how did he how did he do that?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it was definitely his choice, but he saw that because um, you know, I would talk to him regularly about embodiment and talk to him regularly because we have a lot of conversations, we have a lot of time to have conversations because he works from home.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's been a bonus because we will sit and we'll have these deep discussions and we'll go pretty far down there into like what does this all mean, you know?
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so he through those conversations, I would say he came to the realization that okay, I would like to try this new way of being because I want to know what evolves from it.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because he he also told me, he said, I feel like I've reached that place intellectually and rationally where I can't go any further.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know that sounds like arrogant, but it's kind of like okay, I've I've assessed this and I've been mindful of this and I've explored this and I've explored that now.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: I need to go a different way, and this is another way.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's really powerful.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: I love that so much.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where can I expand into now?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do I become even more of myself?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know myself.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's is it's probably a reflection of him saying, I know what my intellectual capacity is.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm familiar with that, I've explored it, I'm done with it now, but I haven't lost interest in me.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what else?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: What else can I be?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or what what else, what other facets are calling for my attention?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's so beautiful.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: And his biggest motivate, I would say, has been parenting.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because he wants to be able to be that you know, that father for our kids.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, really blossomed since he's been able to connect to that um that place.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the challenges of being in a conscious partnership?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I would say for me, the biggest challenge in being a conscious partnership um is um even though it's also a strength, like we we can be authentic with each other, even if it's that the worst parts of us, right?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, there's been a lot of um irritability, and I I've sort of dealt with this all my life, I would say.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have this energy of irritability inside, especially because I'm going through perimenopause right now as well.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been really challenging, like going through perimenopause, and then you know, okay, I'm getting angry at you, and I'm getting irritable at you, and but I'm conscious of it, and you're conscious of it, and we're trying to walk this path.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we work through all of this energy?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when we're both going through it, we're both now going through it.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you take the whole family with you, don't you?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: Then he was in the intellectual mind, he could sort of rationalize it here and there, yeah.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: But now he's trying to feel it, he feels my energies and his energies, and it can sort of be overwhelming for him too.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he needs to draw better boundaries.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that in an unconscious relationship, it's it's really easy to sweep things under the rugs or just avoid dealing with them, or just not uh perhaps addressing the the topmost issue without digging down to find out what issues are lying underneath.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, in some ways that can be a bit easier, but it's never more successful, I've found.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, it is, you know, and like they say, you know, ignorance is bliss.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes I think about it and it is short term, but in the long run, you know, something's gonna happen to trigger something.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in the depths, it's just more deeply satisfying, it's more deeply resonant, it's more deeply giving and receiving and all of it, right?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: We can really touch into all those um joyful moments more so too when we're doing the conscious parenting and the conscious partnership.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is if we can get down to the nitty-gritty of things and you know, uh work through all that stuff, like now we can connect with compassion, kindness, that that um heart-centered joy for whatever's happening, whatever's happening, you know, we can connect to that place.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: So where do you think that humanity is going on the ascension journey?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like what's next for us?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um I feel we're going in the direction of accepting everything that comes our way, and a lot of that is you know, the the human parts that we've shoved down for so long, um, and judge them and criticize them.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's about just making space for all of it, you know, without the judgment piece, or if we do have the judgment, just being mindful of the judgment and reorientating back to our intention.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what's our intention here?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make space for this, you know.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make space for everything that shows up.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: None of it is good or bad, it just is.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we're moving there, but I feel like we also need to incorporate um some more, you know, self-compassion practices.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: I teach a lot of self-compassion to my clients, and I wish my kids would learn it too, but they're not open just yet.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: My youngest is, but my oldest isn't.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that self-compassion piece provides such a great holding environment for ourselves so we can hold everything that arises, and then we can do that for other people as well.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I kind of feel like humanity is at that really super intense moment where they're collectively, we are collectively doing that digging and that waking up, and that's like it requires a lot of courage, a lot of vulnerability.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of like human feeling that has to happen, and that's like big and it's hard, but we're just like once we get through that and we become more accustomed to being ourselves, then once all the stuff that's been buried is set free, then we can step into the flow as a collective and live together in peace and harmony.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, formula, yay!
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it will happen, it will happen.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: I you know, I have so much trust in that.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like you know, even though we might feel like we're so far away from it, we're just like a that you know, choice point away from it sometimes.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, and there is a lot to do.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot, there's always more to do when it comes to digging and and seeing where our wounds are, and you know, and we can do that in relationship, right?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not in a I don't know if we can do it outside of relationship.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely in relationship is definitely the fastest way.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, that's right, and and that's been a challenge for me sometimes because I am quite isolated here, you know, in the suburbs, and um I'm really just going to work, seeing my clients, and that's still a relationship, and there's still a mirror, and I'm still having this relationship with my kids and my husband, but then outside of that, not as much.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you're kind of in the family building years, too, you know.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, don't worry.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: It'll happen.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: You'll get forced out of your home soon enough.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is probably a good time to transition to our lightning round.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are you up for that?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, okay.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what's your favorite day of the week?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, do you have to answer quickly?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: My um that's a great question.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wednesday.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: Hump day.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that why?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know what it is.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, I feel like Wednesday's at midweek where I feel I can take a bit of a breather.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and because the weekend's busy, and then Monday and Tuesday I work until nine at night at the last night.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wednesdays, oh, I can take a pause, I can write if I want to, you know, um, read some poetry, just really concentrate on those pieces.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's lovely.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: And today's Wednesday, isn't it?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know, it's perfect.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm cutting into your poetry time.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, this is like my poetry, this is like my meditation right now.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've I've always loved Fridays, especially Friday afternoon, um, and Friday night too, but I also adore Sundays.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sundays for me are just all about reverence and rest, and um, I I love them, yeah.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: So lovely.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, moving on.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about about keeping secrets?
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't, it gives me an icky feeling to keep secrets.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel like I'm on um on this path of authenticity, and uh as much as I can, I want to be able to express that authenticity, and I know that sometimes you know you have to discern, but discernment is different to keeping secrets, so it gives me a very icky feeling of oh, there's too much accumulation by keeping secrets.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll rather be honest and uh be upfront because it's too much of a burden, yeah, yeah.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting and good.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's the difference between fate and destiny?
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: Fate and destiny.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, great question.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I feel fate, uh, the connotations of that word fate is almost like it's written in stone, you know, like you it can't you can't budge it at all.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's no room for movement.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is your fate, you know, and it it might even have some um for me kind of some discouragement, maybe even like, or a dropping uh heart-centered sort of uh heart-sinking kind of feeling fate.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is my fate, and I feel like that's more because of the history of the word than anything else, yeah.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then destiny, destiny seems a bit more brighter to me.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's brighter.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is a my destiny, and I have some choice in co-creating it as well.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, they definitely do have different energies to them.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would much rather step into my destiny than my fate.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like that soul signature is what Panache calls it, I think.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: Panache Desai, soul signature or destiny, you know.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like okay, this is kind of my my purpose rather than all written in stone and I can't budget at all.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, do you prefer cake or pie?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: I prefer pie.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do you?
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, interesting.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, why?
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I like the crust and then the topping.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I love the crust, I love pie crust anyway.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I do have a sweet tooth, but I'll rather it be balanced with some crust there, whereas cake is just all sweet all around.
• 1:01:45
  unknown: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: I like the pie crust too.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: I could do without the filling.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how shower or bath?
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Shower.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and then finally, do you believe in love at first sight?
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe because I've never experienced it.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and when we talk about love at first sight, it seems to be more on a human level, like human to human.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I I feel like I need to get to know someone a little bit more and their essence a little bit more.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that their essence doesn't come out in their aura or their physical being, but I need to look a little bit more past the physical aspects and connect with that inner internal piece to feel that that love evolve.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, love.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, love at first sight is like an instant, right?
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: And love is more of a movement.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right, um, so did you bring a question for me today?
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: Can't wait to hear it.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have quite a few questions, but I'm gonna maybe we can reserve some of them for coffee.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: That would be lovely.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: That would be great.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so okay, so my question to you, Kay, would be is there anything that you find surprising or and I I know surprising is different to shocking, but anything that um surprises you about life?
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's a general very wide sort of yeah, yeah, I I love those wide questions.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know what I think surprises me most is is my own resilience um and and my devotion.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm surprised by my devotion every day.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: That, and it's very similar to being a parent, where um, you know, you you think that you're at your wit's end at the end of the day, and you don't think you can handle another thing, and you just want to give up and scream and pull out your hair, and then you you know, a moment later you you you know, your child smiles at you and you're cured, you know.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, it um it feels a little bit like that.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like this path that I've been on is so heartrending.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's vulnerable and it's painful and it's scary and it's beautiful and awesome and messy.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I um, you know, I'm surprised by my willingness to continue digging deeper and deeper within.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because as I said earlier, you know, especially at my age, it's like uh, you know, I could probably coast for another 20 years or something, but I'm just not I'm just devoted to not not doing that.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a bit of a surprise to me.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing, that's amazing, and it just it just shows your courage too, and your commitment to awakening.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I if I it's very hard for me to separate the going down the path for myself from going down the path for the collected.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I if I didn't have that purpose at my back, like the wind, I, you know, maybe it wouldn't be quite so, maybe I wouldn't be quite so devoted, or maybe I'd be a little more lax in the process.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, since I do feel such a strong sense of purpose, um, but that's actually the the mission part of it is actually changing a little bit for me.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's me doing my own path has far greater implication than anything I might do, you know, for others.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm becoming a little bit more relaxed and and just focusing on whatever needs to be healed in me, whatever needs to be faced, whatever needs to be dealt with, whatever you know, expansion needs to happen for me.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm becoming a little bit more comfortable with that.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: But that's great.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like sometimes that collective uh purpose becomes a distraction at times, right?
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, facing what's here.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: So well, I admire your journey.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and I admire yours.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to thank you for being with me today.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's been wonderful to reconnect with you, and um, these uh these things that we're learning through conscious parenting and conscious relationships are not easy, and um but they're so so incredibly profound and beautiful.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I thank you for doing that work, and thank you so much for sharing your path with us.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's been wonderful just being with you.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you too.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Kay.