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JHU's Sauer: New Merck Covid Pill Treatment Is Thrilling · Bloomberg Intelligence

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. We're hearing about a
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: lot of cool new COVID treatments, from a nasal vaccine
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  Speaker 1: to a pill from Murk. Let's bring in Lauren Sour
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  Speaker 1: right now from the Johns Hopkins University. Um, Lauren, Uh,
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  Speaker 1: what do you see in terms of the UM the
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  Speaker 1: front runner here for the elusive anti viral UH covid quest. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I mean I think we're also fune by how quickly
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  Speaker 1: the vaccine work happened and how how fast we got
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  Speaker 1: vaccine into arms and are getting vaccine into arms. That
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  Speaker 1: now we can sort of take a breath and think
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  Speaker 1: about the therapeutic side and UM really start to ramp
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  Speaker 1: up UM the novel approaches. So a lot of the
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  Speaker 1: early work was on repurposing drugs and trying out monacola antibodies,
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  Speaker 1: trying out complescent plasma UM and and now we're going
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  Speaker 1: to see innovation, which I think is great. This, this
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  Speaker 1: new UM approach by Mirk and ridge Back is really
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  Speaker 1: exciting because a pill is something we don't have right
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  Speaker 1: now that can easily be given in the outpatient setting
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  Speaker 1: or you know, through a pharmacy or even mail to
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  Speaker 1: people UM to really reduce there that individual patients need
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  Speaker 1: to come in and and get therapeutic treatment like UM
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  Speaker 1: infusion or something like that. So for me, this is
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  Speaker 1: a really exciting step. I mean, it's got to go
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  Speaker 1: through all the regulatory processes, just like everything else, but
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  Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to see this work. Lauren. You know, I
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  Speaker 1: had dinner last night with a group of friends for
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  Speaker 1: the first time in a year. You know, we eight outside.
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  Speaker 1: We all felt comfortable. But what was acining to me
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  Speaker 1: was everybody at the table either had their vaccine or
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  Speaker 1: like me, were scheduled to get it the next few days.
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  Speaker 1: And we talked a lot about vaccine hesitancy UM. I
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  Speaker 1: just you know, there's a lot of folks out there
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  Speaker 1: think that this is gonna be a big, big issue.
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  Speaker 1: How are you, guys, what do you what do you
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  Speaker 1: hearing at the Johns Hopkins University. What's been your experience.
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  Speaker 1: I think there is still a lot of vaccine hesitancy,
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  Speaker 1: and I think it's been UM in many cases. It's
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  Speaker 1: in the communities that are most impacted by COVID nineteen,
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  Speaker 1: and we really have to focus our efforts on educating
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  Speaker 1: UM people who are vaccine hesitant about the benefits, the
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  Speaker 1: risks to be UM, the way the vaccine came to be,
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  Speaker 1: and what that regulatory process looks like to ensure their safety.
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  Speaker 1: I also think it's really important to work with community
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  Speaker 1: members so that UM, if we can do the work
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  Speaker 1: to reduce the hesitancy and people decide, yeah, I do
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  Speaker 1: want to get my vaccine immediately, they're linked to the
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  Speaker 1: space to get that vaccine and have access so that
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  Speaker 1: UM they can get the vaccine quickly. Because there's nothing
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  Speaker 1: worse than doing all the works to to help someone
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  Speaker 1: to understand, to make them feel safe, to make them
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  Speaker 1: feel like the process is rigorous and careful and protective,
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  Speaker 1: and then not be able to give them vaccines or
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  Speaker 1: to have them not be able to access vaccine. It's
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  Speaker 1: a tough one. I think Carl Sagan said, you can't
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  Speaker 1: convince a believer of anything if their beliefs are not
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  Speaker 1: based in fact um, and I'm sure that could apply
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  Speaker 1: to many people who are hesitant to get vaccines. On
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  Speaker 1: the other hand, there have been vaccine disasters in history,
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  Speaker 1: but this clearly looks safe. Has there been any issue,
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  Speaker 1: any major issue arising from vaccine so far? Um, the
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  Speaker 1: vaccines are looking unbelievably safe, and I think we're all
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  Speaker 1: really excited, drilled, relieved to see that the data that
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  Speaker 1: can continue to come in show safe and effective vaccines,
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  Speaker 1: and the vaccines that wants effective were removed early in
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  Speaker 1: the process, showing that our process does work. You know.
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  Speaker 1: I think with the with everything that's happening with the
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  Speaker 1: astros and theic A vaccine right now, um, it is
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  Speaker 1: still a safe and effective vaccine. I think where we're
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  Speaker 1: seeing the problems is in the communication around it, and
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  Speaker 1: it just demonstrates the absolute need for clear and efficient
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  Speaker 1: communication around um you know what the process looks like
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  Speaker 1: and what the safety checks are, because it doesn't matter
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  Speaker 1: how safety a vaccine is. If you mess up the
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  Speaker 1: communication around it or the public feels like they're being
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  Speaker 1: misled about it, then then you've lost the public on
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  Speaker 1: that vaccine. Yeah, exactly. So, Lauren, how about the variants
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  Speaker 1: out there. I know they're providing you know, some challenges
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  Speaker 1: for you know, the vaccine makers and healthcare workers. What
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  Speaker 1: do we know about the ability of existing vaccines they're
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  Speaker 1: driving it looks like they're driving the spike at least here. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: So what do you see in terms of those variants. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of work things done to
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  Speaker 1: look at the variants and to better understand um. You know,
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  Speaker 1: for example, when we see vaccine breakthrough, is it from
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  Speaker 1: a certain variant? Is it from you know, a certain
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  Speaker 1: impact of the variants on the case. And one of
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  Speaker 1: the things that will help us determine that is that
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  Speaker 1: this continued push towards more sequencing efforts, more genomics work
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  Speaker 1: around the virus. So when we get those cases of
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  Speaker 1: vaccine breakthrough UM or we get these these new spikes
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  Speaker 1: in in cases, are we looking to see what variant
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  Speaker 1: we have visibility on, what variants if it's a variant
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  Speaker 1: at all, UM is causing that, And that is a
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  Speaker 1: that is a global effort right now. But I think
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of work to do there. You know,
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  Speaker 1: particularly in the US, we have a lot of sequencing
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  Speaker 1: work to catch up on he Lauren, thank you so
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  Speaker 1: much for joining us. We always appreciate chatting with you
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  Speaker 1: at this time every week as we learn more and
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  Speaker 1: more about this virus, more and more about therapeutics, and thankfully,
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  Speaker 1: more and more about vaccines. Lawrence our Associate Professor of
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  Speaker 1: Emergency Medicine that JOHNS. Hopkins School of Medicine. We should
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  Speaker 1: note that the Bloomberg School of Public Health is supported
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  Speaker 1: by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg
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  Speaker 1: Philanthropies and this Bloomberg Radio and TV operations. I want
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  Speaker 1: to go over to Hans Olsen. He's the chief investment
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  Speaker 1: officer at Fiduccieri Trust and he's got about nineteen billion
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  Speaker 1: dollars of assets under management in Boston. Hans, we see
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  Speaker 1: some green on the screen today. It's I guess the
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  Speaker 1: reopening play um on again. What do you think about
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  Speaker 1: markets with more room to run? Here? Well, I definitely
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  Speaker 1: think we have more room to run. The reopening play
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  Speaker 1: UM I think is is you know, we're into it,
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  Speaker 1: but I think there's more to go, especially when we
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  Speaker 1: get um you know, the successive ways of stimulus that
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  Speaker 1: will come in form in the form of infrastructure spending
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  Speaker 1: and human capital um um spending that the administration's talking about.
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  Speaker 1: So I think there's definitely more to come through the
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  Speaker 1: next quarter or so, and then at some point we'll
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  Speaker 1: start to have to reckon with how we pay for
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  Speaker 1: all of this stimulus. Yeah, that's a good point there, Hans.
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  Speaker 1: I mean just definitely been concerned in the marketplace over
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  Speaker 1: the last several weeks about inflation creeping into this economy
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  Speaker 1: and whether it's maybe, you know, if it's good inflation
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  Speaker 1: or maybe not so good inflation. How are you thinking
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  Speaker 1: about those inflation worries in the market. I've often thought
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  Speaker 1: the the the inflation worries would be a natural companion
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  Speaker 1: to the recovery story, right, It would be only a
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  Speaker 1: matter of time between from when people focused about the
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  Speaker 1: economic woes to potentially inflation problems down the line. And
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  Speaker 1: so I think this is all rather um uh, sort
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  Speaker 1: of normal in the in the pace of markets. I
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  Speaker 1: do think though these I'm sympathetic to these inflation warriors,
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  Speaker 1: you know, but I think that might be a bit premature.
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  Speaker 1: After all, we're still about ten million people fewer lighter
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  Speaker 1: in the LA market then we were roughly last time
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  Speaker 1: this year, and there have been some changes in the
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  Speaker 1: in the commercial markets, the labor markets that I'm not
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  Speaker 1: sure we fully appreciate it yet. If you were working
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  Speaker 1: at a you know, a kmart or a Lord and Taylor,
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  Speaker 1: there's no job for you to go back to. And
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  Speaker 1: and if you look at hospitality and the travel industry
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  Speaker 1: that were built really on a very profitable business traveler, uh,
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  Speaker 1: that is going to change. So I mean, those are
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  Speaker 1: just a couple of instances the way that the pandemic
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  Speaker 1: has probably changed our commercial lives that are yet to
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  Speaker 1: be fully fully appreciated. So I think inflation, while it's
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  Speaker 1: certainly problematic, is probably a concern for for another day
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  Speaker 1: at this juncture. But I mean, as the FED tries
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  Speaker 1: to push down the U six, which is at eleven
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  Speaker 1: point one percent right now, surely, especially together with fiscal
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  Speaker 1: they're going to bring on some inflation into in doing that.
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  Speaker 1: Eventually it would be reasonable to expect inflation to to rise.
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  Speaker 1: And you would see you're seeing this already happening, I guess, uh,
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  Speaker 1: really more worries about how they fund it, all right,
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  Speaker 1: And you're seeing a bit of a rebellion in the
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  Speaker 1: bond market if you look at at the shape of
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  Speaker 1: the curve over the last since the end of let's
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  Speaker 1: say January um the ten twenty year um or, they're
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  Speaker 1: up about half to three quarters of a percentage point.
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  Speaker 1: So that's a that's a pretty big move. And you've
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  Speaker 1: had a couple of bond auctions, the seven year auctions
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  Speaker 1: of late, that have gone poorly. So I think there's
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  Speaker 1: a bit of a rebellion going on in the UH
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  Speaker 1: in the bond market. Makes one wonder whether the said
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  Speaker 1: will be forced into some sort of full on your
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  Speaker 1: curve control as a result. You know, I love I
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  Speaker 1: love to look at Hans on the on the Bloomberg terminal.
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  Speaker 1: Debt go is a very simple function that shows you
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  Speaker 1: the owners of US treasuries. And of course the federal
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  Speaker 1: reserve line has just skyrocketed, as Japan, China, UK they
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  Speaker 1: all stay at similar, similar levels. How difficult do you
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  Speaker 1: think it's going to be de fund especially when Biden
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  Speaker 1: comes out with a three or four trillion dollar infrastructure package,
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  Speaker 1: Well already you have. I think it's going to be tough,
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  Speaker 1: and it's going to force problem without a reserve to
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  Speaker 1: step in to be the buyer of last resort. You know,
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  Speaker 1: if you look at UM selling over the last several
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  Speaker 1: years of US treasuries by foreign investors, you know, we're
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  Speaker 1: we're we're hitting some pretty big selling. They're voting with
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  Speaker 1: their feet, uh, and it's obvious. It's obvious that they're
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  Speaker 1: concerned about the fiscal direction of the country, whether its
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  Speaker 1: sustainable or not. So who buys this and more importantly,
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  Speaker 1: at what price they buy this debt is something that
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  Speaker 1: we're going to have to work out in the months ahead,
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  Speaker 1: and especially right especially as we think about another three
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  Speaker 1: maybe four trillion hitting the markets, that that needs to
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  Speaker 1: get financed, and then uh, part of that's going to
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  Speaker 1: be financed through uh rising taxes. So that's gonna have
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  Speaker 1: an implication for the after tax return on equities that
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  Speaker 1: we'll have to start thinking about. Hans talk to us
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  Speaker 1: about emerging markets here. We've heard really over the last
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  Speaker 1: several months in particular, kind of a rising UH interest
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  Speaker 1: in emerging markets as people, as investors globally search for
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  Speaker 1: yield and returns. How are you guys thinking about that
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  Speaker 1: at Fidishary. Yeah, I'm thinking about it more in the
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  Speaker 1: context of both growth and currency. UM. You know, emerging
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  Speaker 1: market they are going to be I think in fine
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  Speaker 1: form in terms of the UH, the growth pots you
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  Speaker 1: probably double two x that of the developed world. So
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  Speaker 1: so there's a good story there. UM. Their fiscal position
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  Speaker 1: tends to be a lot better than the developed world.
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  Speaker 1: And I think even though that the dollar has been
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  Speaker 1: strong lately, the reality is that we're running massive twin
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  Speaker 1: deficits and that's never a good thing for for the dollar. UH.
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  Speaker 1: And so I think if we look forward, you know,
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  Speaker 1: a year, two years, let's see a lower currency, UM,
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  Speaker 1: the dollar is gonna get sorely tested. And with that UH,
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  Speaker 1: international markets should catch a nice bid, especially the emerging markets,
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  Speaker 1: which are particularly sensitive to that. UM. So I think
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  Speaker 1: emerging markets great play right now. Number one and number
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  Speaker 1: two if if we look beyond right what the goings
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  Speaker 1: on are in Europe with their problems with their vaccines,
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  Speaker 1: which are which are significant. But if you look at
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: markets there right now, they're telling you that there's a
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  Speaker 1: turn their markets. UH. The local currency return in those
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  Speaker 1: markets this year's been really quite good right than the US. Indeed, Hans,
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  Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us and sharing your thoughts.
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  Speaker 1: We always appreciate that. Hans Olsen, Chief investment officer for
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Fiduciary Trust based in Boston, talking about kind of where
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: they are allocating some of the money, where the folks
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  Speaker 1: that fiduciary are seeing some opportunities, talking a little bit
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: about the emerging markets again potentially an area of opportunity,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: particularly against his weaker dollar outlook. Well. Over the past year,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: the pandemic has opened up several new legal battles, from
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: death tied to COVID outbreaks on cruises, to concerns at
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: the workplace, and even f all tied to stimulus payments.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: It all adds up to a mountain of new litigation.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Some of it's tied to laws that date back a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: hundred years, while other complaints are garnering calls for new
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: legal measures. We get more on the matter from Greg
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: jar in this Bloomberg Radio special report. Many things have
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: changed in this time of pandemic, from where and how
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: we work to what we wear, how we marry, how
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: we recreate, and how and why we sue each other.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Pandemic related lawsuits are expanding and new law is being
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: created from workers comp claim suits against healthcare companies, hotels, airlines,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: and possibly the most recognized cruise lines who can forget
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the images of ships unable to dock or docked and
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: unable to disembark, like the Grand prind Sets owned by
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: Carnival Corporation, which was stuck in San Francisco Bay. Nancy
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Nishimura of Cochet, Petrie and McCarthy, famed Towards firms, says
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: they're hampered in their lawsuits by a law fast in
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  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, the Death on the High Seas Act, also
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: known DOSA. D o h s A was designed to
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: simply compensate only money for the amount the person had earned,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: maybe funeral and burial expenses and very little more. And
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: DOSA has not grown up to meet the needs of
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: the world now, and it was not designed for the
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: cruise line world. It really was not. Miss Moore says
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: that law has he empowered the cruise lines. The cruise
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: ships fell impervious to liability, and I think that's a
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: motivating factor for why they continued to sail, even though
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: they knew that Carnival in particular had one of its
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: cruise ships already under quarantine in Japan from February. Our
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: clients at sail afterwards MOA thanks one of their wrongful
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: death suits has a chance because of where the client
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: fell ill. Our position is that he contracted the coronavirus
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: while stuck in the San Francisco Bay and as a consequence,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: he was not outside the three mile limit of the
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: United States Shores for the defendants to invoke the depth
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: on the High States Act. Then there's fraud surrounding unemployment benefits.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Billions of dollars in unemployment benefits have been ripped off
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: in many states, and in many cases by inmates in
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: various prisons, some of whom fraudulently applied for benefits, and
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: others who intercepted debit cards used to distribute those benefits.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Attorney Brian Dennits is suing Bank of America. At Bank
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: of America, which has the exclusive contract to distribute unemployment
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: funds to unemployment recipients in California, they should have known
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: that fraud was going to pick up, and they saw
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: it happening, and they did not put in the measures
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that needed to be put in to protect the unemployed
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: and recipients than it says. The claimants keep calling hundreds
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: and hundreds of people who are desperate they've lost their
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: only lifeline. I've heard from a father of three who
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: is now sleeping in his car with his family. I've
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: heard from someone who gets prescription medicine that he can
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: no longer afford. These stories are coming in every day
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and it is very sad, and there's no relief in sight.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: That's why we filed our complaint. Another area of law
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: that's expanding due to the pandemic. It's no wonder that
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: business owners are concerned about bringing their workers back to
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: work because they are concerned that they will not be
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: covered if the worst happens, if somebody contracts the virus
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: at work. And and sus agrees, I think some employers
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: are very concerned. That is why they're not requiring all
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: their employees to come back there asking them too. As
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: for those cruisers, Cardinal CEO Arnold Donald says, despite the
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: ascension of litigation, he's not concerned. Business looks good. There
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: will be plenty of pentop demand, as evidence by the
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: booking's already um as you look at late and a
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: secon first half second half twenty two where the book
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: he's are stronger uh than they were even prior to COVID.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: On the same basis, which begs the question why would
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: cruisers want to get back on the boat after what
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: happened in people love the experience. What remains to be
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: seen is how all this will shake out post pandemic,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: which has yet to arrive in San Francisco. I'm Greg
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Janet Bloomberg Greggy fantastic recording there by Greg Jarry with
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: some good tunes as well. Greg Jarret joins us. Now.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Greg's just a great piece. I can't imagine the amount
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: of litigation that's going to flow from this pandemic and
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: the economic disruption it will be, keeping lawyers busy for years.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: I want to focus on the cruising business because that
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: just fascinates me. I mean, I've never been on a cruise,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: but if I were to board a cruise ship, I
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: I recognize I'm basically boarding a floating Petrie Dish. Don't
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I assume some risk there? I guess, well, it's not
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: so much that follows what she was talking about the
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Death on the High Seas Act enacted in nineteen twenty.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: If you're beyond the three mile limit of the US
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: or any other country that has laws against laws that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: would enforce, you know, wrongful death suits, it doesn't count.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Because there's this death on the High Seas Act, and
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: there's other laws, and the ship is its own little
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: country floating out there, so you don't think you don't
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: have a whole lot of rights. Maritime law absolutely fascinating.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: How does how do insurance industries deal with this? Well,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: it's it's interesting because the insurance companies are pretty much
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: fighting at tooth and nail every step of the way,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: and the law is pretty much on their side. If
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: you look at it, you google it, if you do
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: a search, you see that most of the lawsuits have
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: already been dismissed. It's only the ones that were within
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: that three mile limit that are being held up. In
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: any case, it's being pursued and new law is being made,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: just like with the Internet. You guys remember when we
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: started internet. Uh, they always had laws against murder, they
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: had laws against theft, but they had to refashion the
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: laws in order to be able to fit the internet
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: usage of the crimes. Now they're having to refashion law
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: to fit a pandemic and also what's going on in
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the high season. By the way, as far as employers
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: are concerning businesses, there were already many exclusions in there
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: that specifically read not in the case of a pandemic. Yeah,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's interesting, it's you know, just as
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: part of the stimulus packages. You know, when I see
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: you know, the numbers being banded about, it just screams
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: organized crime. I'm sure when they see those dollars, they
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: just say, boy, there's a gold a gold mine right out.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: If you have the ability to intercept electronically on the internet.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: And this brings two sets of laws together. If you're
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: able to intercept that, why not spend the money? And
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: that's what a lot of people in prison apparently are saying,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: according to the attorneys that I interviewed, that the it's
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: just just rampant with billions of dollars. And that's another question.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: How are the states going to recoup that? How are
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: they going to come back from that? On top of
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: the of the uh of of all the stimulus that
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: has already been paid out. Where will that money come from?
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: It will be interesting to see if a solution is
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: found for people who do want to go on a
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: cruise of Paul does want to pull the trigger on
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: that carnival, uh, you know Caribbean stream but uh, you know,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: are worried about this. Maybe you can buy some additional
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: insurance that will cover you even um when you are
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: at high see Greg Jared, thanks very much for that reporting.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Great package. Well, some news out this morning about Fox
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Corporation and voting machine company Dominion is suing Fox News
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: over election claims. The suit is amounts to one point
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: six billion dollars. Let's get the latest on this. We
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: turned to Larrik Eric Larson, us legal reporter for a
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. Eric, thanks so much for joining us here.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: What do we know about this suit? Well, it is
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: a one point six billion dollar lawsuit against Fox accusing
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: the company of a really huge defamation campaign over its
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: coverage of the aftermath of the November election. Uh. You know,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: the Fox is accused of falsely accusing Dominion of of
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: rigging the election by flipping millions of votes away from
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, falsely claiming that the company had ties to
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Venezuela and the Hugo Chave, and accusing it of paying
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: kickbacks to government officials to use its machine. So it's
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: pretty wide ranging claims here. How difficult will this be
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: to prove? How difficult our defamation suits um to prove
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: in court? They can be pretty tough UM. You know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a First Amendment defense and
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and when a case like this they might have to
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: prove that box intentionally, like knowingly maybe these false claims UM,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: rather than unintentionally, and that they did so with actual malice.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: They just sort of disregarded the truths UM. And it
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: can be a difficult UM thing to prove. But Dominion
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: says that they have just tons of evidence here with
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: all the exhibits and the complaint. It comes out over
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: four hundred pages, lots of screenshots and transcripts of UH
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: guests and and on air talent UM on Fox News
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: UH saying UM claim making claims about dominion that we're
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: just frankly not true. UM. And it wasn't just that
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: they were saying, hey, we made a mistake here. They
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: had the Dominion says that they pointed out these errors
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: over and over again, UM, and that Fox chose to
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: sort of ignore that to point it is to the
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: suit and just can continue to um spread these these
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: lies about the election, UH in order to keep viewers. UM.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: It really was about an economic interest, according to Dominion,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: they say that that Fox was really concerned about its
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: share value. It's loss of viewership after Trump. Viewers turned
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: two more conservative outlets after the election, and they said
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: that this is a specific campaign by Fox to spread
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: these lines to keep viewers and to save its stock price.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: All right, So, Eric, I mean Dominion has been very
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: aggressive with its legal strategy here. They've sued Rudy Giuliani,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: they sued former Trump campaign attorney Sydney pou the my
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Pillow CEO Mike Lindell. What really is their strategy here?
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Are they really looking, um, to drive these suits all
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: the way to the end, or they maybe just trying
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: to make a point? Um. I have spoken with Dominion
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: CEO and its words, Um, they are absolutely ready to
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: go to trial. That's what they say they want here.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: In fact, they say that the trial when all of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: this supposed evidence about the Dominion's activities is supposed to
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: come forward, you know, that's when they say it'll be
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: obvious that it was all a lie. So they are
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: they're not joking around, you know. They say they want
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: they want to take these as far as they can.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: They wanted to go to trial. They want the world
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: to see that it's evidence of vote manipulation does doesn't exist,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: and that they never had any of this evidence they
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: claim to have. So you know, it's uh, the ones
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: that you mentioned earlier, the suit against Juliani and Sidney
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Powell and Mike Mondel. Um, this really sort of like
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: caps it off. It's not stay the last one. They've
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: even hinted that they might sue uh over President Trump
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: as well. But this is certainly where they've been signaling
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: they're gonna go. Um, and and certainly other students are
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: probably going to be filed as well. And it's not
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: just dominion, right. Smart Maddock is also another voting machine
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: company is also suing Fox and some of its anchors.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting the anchors are named specific
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: stically in the suit. Yeah, the Smartmatock UH suit that
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: was filed earlier, for example, named Lou Dabbed. Shortly after
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: that it was filed, you know, his show was canceled.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Um that Fox did not say it was for that reason,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: but a lot of people drew that conclusion. Um. But
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I should point out that Fox has moved to dismiss
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: that suit already. UM. And today they said in an
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: emailed statement to me that they plan on fighting this
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: new suit by dominion as well. And so that it's
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: without merit. Alright, So Eric, I mean, is without merrit
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: kind of boilerplate response is there? What? What is kind
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: of the defense for uh Fox is simply First Amendment. Well,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: they're going to I'm sure that they will probably argue
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: that they were just doing their jobs as journalists, UM,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: having people come on to discuss in the you know,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: the most important news of the day, the election. UM.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Certainly there were allegations of voter fraud that we're going around,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: and they will argue that they were just reporting on
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: those facts and allowing people to come on and give
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: their opinions. So, UH Dominion says that that can only
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: get you so far, though. UM. In their complaint they
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: do spell out they anticipate this defense and point out that,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: you know, they had made so many attempts to reach
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: out and tell Fox that what they were doing was
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: just spreading lies upon lies, UM, and that they refused
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: to retract what they were saying, and they continued to
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: have folks come on who were spreading what they said
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: were demonstrably false, you know, you demonstrably false claims. It
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: wasn't just an opinion. Dominion says, these were just false claims.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: All right, Eric, thanks very much for joining us. Eric
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Larson is a Bloomberg legal reporter talking to us about
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: the lawsuits being brought against Fox and others over the
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: election coverage. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to. Interview is an Apple
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller. Yet I'm fall Sweeney.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio