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Life and Death Drive · Why We Do What We Do

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You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome to Why we Do
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what we do. I am your striving toward Death host Abraham, and I'm
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your wielding a bow and arrow of love host Shane. We are a psychology
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podcast. We talk about what people do and why they do the things that
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they do, and that's why we're called why we do what we do?
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And we unpack you know, the I think the well known and more than
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anything, the maybe less well known aspects of psychology and human behavior. And
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we try and do it with that nice scientific sheene yes. And then sometimes
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we find a subject in psychology that's a little bit ridiculous and a little bit
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absurd, so we like to debunk that. So today we are going to
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spend a little bit of time unpacking the thing that probably doesn't deserve the airtime
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it's going to get today. That's fair. Yeah, I would be interested,
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like do an analysis of how much, like what percent of our episodes
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or like how much time we spend doing debunking type topics, because it is
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it is a decent chunk. Yes, I would say, yes, yes,
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this one, this one in particular, though, I think fits you
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know, sometimes we have episodes that are like interviews and debunking, or history
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and this or that, or like you know, we kind of have something
1:22
that are like mix and match. This one is so strictly debunking it couldn't
1:26
be anything else. It's kind of like how some Pokemon or dual type there's
1:30
like water rock and stuff like that. This one is strictly water, right,
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that's what. That's what. That's the tag that we would get here.
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No other hashtags. Fair enough enough, moving on from that before we
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get into our top and we've we've alluded to it. We've we've what the
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palette, as you might say, we've we've tried to generate appetite for our
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discussion. Sure, euphemism is about things that might have you intrigue. So
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if you are listening to us on the date that this releases, great job.
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Turns out we like to talk about the holidays that we celebrate on the
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dates that these episodes release. The thing that we do, we do it
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often sometimes, because time is a construct, we mess up things. And
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so this is one of those moments where maybe there were some kind of like
2:13
flux in time. Maybe I don't know, a sun spot hit the Earth
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and threw off our clocks. I don't know something happened, but we made
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a mistake. Yes, one thing that definitely happened is I skipped a week
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in January and my release scheduling. And so anyway, what you heard last
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week and our episode on the Matching Law was were the actual dates for this
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week. So if you want to go back and check those out, feel
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free. I guess we can summarize them really quick. It was National Hot
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Chocolate Day, Eat Brussels Sprout's Day, Inspire your Heart with Art Day,
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remember the others. It was grill suit Day. There were quite a few.
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I can't remember off the top of my head. So there were quite
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a few, and we celebrated them all when we celebrated them very hard,
2:52
So I think that's probably why we don't remember them as much. Partied so
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hard on a Brandy Alexander Day and National Backward Day and hell is Freezing Over
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Day? Yeah that we Yeah, anyway, so those are the things that's
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today, and so sorry that we we got our calendars off. But we're
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now back on track. I think, yeah, we're So we should be
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good, So you should be able to return to enjoying your holidays on an
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actual, agreed upon, socially valid schedule. We know that you are all
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following these really closely, and we're upset about the fact that we got those
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dates wrong. So yeah, don't please don't update our Wikipedia to say that
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we messed us up and that we're a bad podcast. Do we have a
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Wikipedia just for posterity sake in case somebody finds us later, you know,
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and we're and we're famous by then, Yeah, well let's get to the
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actual episode. Then. Yes, we are actually not a podcast about the
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dates. We just are like, hey, it's kind of a fun thing
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to talk about, but we're actually here too. As you said earlier,
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unpack a very silly thing that has been done in psychology. And before we
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get into that, if you would like to support the show, probably not
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based exclusively on our celebration of holidays, but maybe that's your thing, you
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can leave us a rating and review, You can subscribe, joined us on
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Patreon, pick up some merch, tell a friend about us, do other
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things that would support us that you can think of, follow us on Spotify,
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or or just set your all your different apps to automatically download every episode
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of ours. Well, if you could figure it out and it's all good.
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And I'll talk more about the ways think and support us at the end
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of this discussion. But let's go ahead and get into this today because we
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get to talk about some mythology stuff, which is which is always fun,
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I mean for a little bit anyway. Yeah, so I'm really excited about
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this. And so we are talking today about the death drive or the death
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instinct that was maybe coined by Freud, maybe not. We'll unpack that.
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So a couple questions we're gonna ask today are going to be what is the
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death drive or the death instinct? Is there any clinical use in understanding what
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the death drive is? And really that's those are two main questions. I
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mean, there's not really much more to unpack beyond that. So I think
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as we go into this, you'll you'll find that it's a very outdated concept
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or theory. Yeah, and why why was Thanos called Thanos? Maybe we'll
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unpack that a little in here. Yeah, not directly or intentionally, but
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it could it could happen because we talk about Marvel things sometimes we do.
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Yeah, it's gonna come up for sure, Okay, deal, But I
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said that this might have a little mythology. I'm realizing now that this will
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actually be pretty much entirely mythology, but not the way. Yeah, I
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thought what you think. All right, So we're talking about the death drive
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the life drive as well. There's there's two sides to every coin, and
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then there's like the outside of the coin as well, so maybe three sides
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sure. The first one we'll start with is is Arros. This is the
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Greek god of love and sex, the Roman counterpoint amer recognize as Cupid.
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Yeah. And then we've also got the NADOs, which is the Greek god
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of death, who was also the first cousin once removed from Hades, the
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Greek god of the underworld. It's complicated, Yeah, it's those family trees
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are a little bit much, is all I'm saying. Zeus had a lot
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of kids from a lot of different people. We're not going to unpack his
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stuff and all that today. But who's Catholic? Yeah, yes, and
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also very polyamorous, so Thanatos his Roman counterpart is Moors or let them.
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There's two different versions of that, and so there's two different kind of stories
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around Thanatos as well. Okay, now in psychology, these characters of Aros
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and Thanatos Thanatos, I'm going with Thanatos for this one. Great Aeros and
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Thanatos. These characters play a central role in understanding this idea of a death
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drive, or another way to talk about the death drive is the human tendency
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and drive toward death and destruction that a lot of people point to as being
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inherent as part of human nature. Right, So Aros being the life drive,
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being the idea that we have an instinct towards living, and then Thanatos
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being the death drive, being that we have an instinct towards moving towards death
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or being inorganic. And so we'll kind of unpack all of that in a
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little bit more as we go. So this drive, this idea of a
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death drive, is expressed through aggressive behavior or self destructiveness or repetitive compulsions that
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result in the deterioration of a person's well being. So essentially, this person
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has a death drive that's so powerful they continue to engage in behavior until they
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are no longer alive. Okay, that's what this theory says, all right,
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or maybe the people around them are no longer alive it right, right,
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we stopped doing most things when we're no longer alive. Right, that's
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true. That's usually the end of the things we do. That's usually the
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end. Now, this was originally proposed, this idea of sort of this
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Arros and thanatus thanatos, the death drive life drive sort of thing. This
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was proposed by Sabina. I'm gonna say, Spielian, that's as close as
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I got the German. Maybe I need to say at a little bit angrier
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Sabina, Spillion, it's a little bit more in the throat, like you
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gotta get in the throat about it. Yeah, Spiellien, there you go
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like that, and a paper titled quote destruction as the cause of coming into
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being end quote. Yes. So in nineteen twelve, this was kind of
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a proposed discussion. Okay, from the psychology standpoint, we're going to get
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into the philosophy of this is a little bit, but a quick note on
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Sabina. She was a Russian physicist and considered one of the first female psychoanalysts.
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She followed the standard linear progression of patient to student to colleague of Carl
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Jung, who she later had a relationship with. And we had talked about
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already doing a whole episode on Sabina because I think that She's done a lot
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of really cool work and doesn't get the credit that she deserves. And you'll
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kind of see what happens at a second. Yeah, she also remained colleagues
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with Freud and practice with PGA, so she's done a lot of work in
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this world. She was quite accomplished, published thirty five papers in three different
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languages, and was the first to publish on the topic of death drive or
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death instinct, so she was the very first person to actually publish on this.
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She had a career of about thirty five years or so, and so
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unfortunately her life was cut short due to World War Two and her death in
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the Holocaust. She was a Jewish practitioner. She was found and she was
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put to death in one of the camps, and we are going to do
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a whole episode on her. But she went from living in a psychiatric clinic
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to obtaining her doctorate and becoming the first woman to publish a psychoanalytic dissertation.
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That is a huge deal. It's quite quite the life arc story. Yes,
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yeah, I'm saying all right, So in nineteen twenty, so this
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is eight years later, Freud decided he'd like a turn it discussing the concept
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of the death drive in his book Beyond the Pleasure Principle is what his book
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was called. That sounds like a sci fi book, doesn't it Like?
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It sounds like it doesn't sound like a scientific text. It sounds like something
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that l. Ron Hubbard would write. Well, it's not really a scientific
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text, but yes, it does sound like a type thing. Yeah,
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it's it's it's you know. Anyway, I've never read it. Some like
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erotica noir maybe, yeah, probably probably so many cigars in that book,
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so many cigars now. Freud expanded on the concept and described the death drive
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as an inherent tendency for organic things to return to an inorganic state of sorts.
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So this was part of a dualistic viewpoint that he kind of adopted,
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this idea that people also strove or organisms strove towards life as well as death,
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and those two specific drives was the life drive arrows or liban'stribe and the
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death drive, which was totis stribe is how I would imagine those are pronounced.
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My German is not very good, but that's that's how this kind of
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like this concept started. I think you did, at least as well as
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I did. I'm a little bit stuck on the idea of like these fat,
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girthy cigars, but I don't want to take away from our discussion here.
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Sure sure, yes, essentially the and we've talked about in previous episode
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the idea. I think we've talked about this at least, the whole idea
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of drives. I think we talked about this early early on in an episode
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on motivation and how like there was this period in time and psychological history where
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everything was a drive. If you did it, there was a drive and
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that was why you did it. Made it really like this podcast would have
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been so short back then, They're like, why do you pick your nose?
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You've got to pick your nose? Drive? We're done by seeing right,
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or maybe it would have just done like twenty five episodes a week.
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I don't know anyways, as we're talking here. So the idea here is
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this life drive and death drive posits that organisms have these two inherent drives that
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influence their behavior. Again by observing the fact that organisms behave. Sure,
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the life drive or erros motivates the organism to behave in ways that are toward
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life sustaining actions, right, and an outcome. So these are the things
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that are keeping them alive, eating, procreating, exercising, et cetera.
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The death drive, or thanatos, does the opposite. This is posting the
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organism to move toward more destructive behaviors smoking cigars, giant fat, girthy,
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big long cigars, more sure, alcohol, sedentary, you know, lots
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of those types of things. These are essentially when we say drives too.
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They're also described as instincts a lot when you look up the stuff on this,
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so like you'll hear the term instinct a lot, and we're going to
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unpack kind of what that means for clinical use as we go. And now,
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Freud also argues that these drives operate in the kind of a general steady
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state, but will trend towards death what he calls the nirvana principle. The
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nirvana principle is not bleach, it's not never mind, and it's not in
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utero. Okay, that's a much better set of principles. Go listen to
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those instead. It does smell like teen spirit though, it does. Right.
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So, the nirvana principle argues that these two drives essentially balance each other
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out and keep each other in check. But they still the life drive has
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to work a little harder to get over on the death drive because according to
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the APA, there's a quote about this, the death drive is quote the
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tendency of all instincts to remove tension and seek the stability and equilibrium of the
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inorganic state that is death. This is the trend of the death instinct,
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which Sigmund Freud believed to be universal. End quote. So essentially, you've
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got these two drives. They're always kind of like teetering and balancing and trying
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to figure this stuff out, but ultimately they're moving towards death, moving to
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less tension, moving to relief essentially, So the nirvana principle is that there
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is a happy balance between the two so that you can at least move forward
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without being pulled too heavily in one direction or the other, because being pulled
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toward life would definitely be too bad. And obviously, the vacuousness of this
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theory and we will continue to unpack, meaning there's this this gaping hole in
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our understanding and our philosophy of this, like the gaping hole we're going to
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leave in this episode for ads. All right, we're back, I said,
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gaping hole too many times, but it was it was it fell in
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keeping with our topic, right, all right, we're talking about the nirvana
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principle. How this relates to the life drive the death drive. Putting this
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simply the idea here, every organism tends to work itself toward death, to
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these naturally occurring instincts thanatos and moved toward nirvana. Moving toward nirvana, the
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nirvana principle. The life drive helps balance the scales towards staying alive, keeping
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the organism living. So they're just staying nicely on that path of forward motion,
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I guess, because they're being pulled in two different directions, as evidenced
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by the fact that Freud said, so right, that was nice, that
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was good. Speaking of other things that Freud said, toward the end of
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his life, he actually changed what he thought about this theory, so he
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conceptualizes a bit differently. He began to classify instincts into two distinct categories,
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sexual instincts because of course he did, why wouldn't he Freud? Wow,
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uh, I know, and then destructive instincts. So the sexual instincts ended
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up falling under arros, and then those destructive instincts ended up falling under Thanatos.
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So Aros was less about life and more about sex, and Thanatos was
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more about destruction and not about death. So that's what he started conceptualizing towards
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the end of his life, rather than life and death. How could it
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be any other way? Really? Right? People change, you know.
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Yeah, let's invite our old friend philosophy into this discussion and talk about what
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others have said about this these ideas. So Schopenhauer had written about a philosophical
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death drive and metaphysical will in eighteen eighteen, So this is like a century
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before all this took place, well before Freud and his friends showed up on
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the scene. But isn't that the kind of crux of early psychology, right?
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It always discussed before in some way, just maybe in fluffier terms or
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something. Right, So recycle, repackage, update, the parnacular. Yeah,
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so this guy Schoppenheimer, Schoppenheimer, John jingle Heimer, Schmidt, Schopenhawer.
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So he had written about the idea of this of will, or specifically
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started calling it the will to live, which ultimately became Arrows. Right,
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the will to live was the instinct to live, the behaviors that we engage
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in to continue to live, and he wrote about that many many moons ago
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prior to the study here before Sabina. Really yeah, I mean he dove
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deep into this, into the topic of this in his work The World as
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Will and Representation. And this was back before there were a million books.
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I mean, you could pretty much read every book that had ever been written
16:12
in your lifetime and at this rate, and then you'd be like, why
16:15
did I spend all this time reading that? But anyway, he believed that
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life in general produced more suffering than happiness. So he was a Christian.
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So the only reason that humans persisted was due to the drive toward life and
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pleasure, I guess. And so yeah, that was sort of his thesis
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there. Yeah, So essentially what he kind of landed on was the behavior
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continues because of reward. Strange, don't make me agree with that. That's
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he's kind of what he landed on, though. So. Freud even quotes
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Schoppenhauer in his writings about the Natas. In the same writing he claims to
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have discovered the theme of death Freud did. Freud claimed to have stumbled upon
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the idea of death by the way, that's impressive, Like he literally he's
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writing about it, and I was like, I was reading I was like,
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there's no way that he thinks this, maybe this, this is out
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of context. And no, he was like I stumbled upon this theme of
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death, this idea of death and what it meant. And I was like,
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no, you didn't, dude, like you are like so many people
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did this, Like any philosopher talked about this at some point, what a
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pioneer any religion talked about this. I know he just was so full of
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himself in the nineteen twenties because guys, I figured out that people die.
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People die. It's a thing like, oh, I thought all this time
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that we've been fighting wars, we were just putting them to sleep for very
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long time. We'll talk about sleep too, sure in a little bit,
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but yes, how could we not? It is really astounding to me that
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he they had the gall to be like, yeah, I figured this out.
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I figured out what death means, only later to change it. Yeah.
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We'll probably get some criticisms from people who say that wasn't what he was
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actually saying. It's fine whatever, that's fine right in right, Yeah,
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we want to hear it's great. Yeah, Okay, so we're talking about
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the philosophy we've unpacked. I think more or less what this drive is trying
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to say here, how is this useful? What does this do for us
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in psychology that allows us to be effective clinicians, effective scientists, philosophers,
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what have you? The idea here is that psychoanalysts could identify that there was
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a cause heavy for certain destructive behaviors that naturally occur in humans. They're just
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gonna do it. They just gots to do it. Oh, you're aggressive,
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self harming. That is your genetic tendency toward death. The death drive,
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we all have it. Let's work out to counterbalance it is essentially just
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just stop appreciating death more and appreciate life more. Bob Newhart sort of said
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this and his comedia The Bit on like Mad TV. I think it is
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what it was on when someone came in with a problem and he said,
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he like, this is how much it's going to cost. We're gonna do
18:49
this thing. And then he says stop it. And it's like what He's
18:55
like, stop it. She's like, I don't understand. He's like,
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you said, you do all these things right, Yet he's ad stop it,
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it's so great and and that's and that's honestly kind of what's going on
19:06
here. Yeah, exactly. I think I think that's what they landed on,
19:08
is they're like, well, just stop, just stop, stop having
19:11
a death drive. Just don't don't do it anymore. Don't do that.
19:15
Yeah, So I guess maybe if it wasn't clear as we're been talking about
19:19
this, the idea of a death drive is an instinct, is an intrinsic
19:22
motivation situation here, right, So this is happening as like every human has
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it no matter what, and we are, no matter the circumstances, no
19:30
matter the person, we have an inherent or innate drive towards these types of
19:37
behaviors. So I think it's worth expanding expanding on this a little bit,
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and like I want you to kind of walk through this with me as we
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as if for listeners out there, let's let's talk about this. So,
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yeah, if all behavior follows a motivation, then understanding inherent motivations would be
19:52
helpful. Right, So if we can go back and say we understand the
19:55
behavior is motivated, So if we understand what the motivation is, then we
19:57
can better serve the behahavior, or change the behavior or alter the behavior.
20:02
That makes sense, right, might even start a podcast about it and call
20:04
it why we do what we do? Yeah, we might end up on
20:07
a radio show that we have created on our own with no filters and no
20:10
guidelines. But if we know that humans tend to trend toward death and destruction,
20:14
then we can create countermeasures and interventions that tip the scales back towards love
20:19
and the will to live and all that. Right, that makes sense when
20:22
you when you say it like that a little bit, Yeah, logical sense.
20:26
Maybe the humans triumphant over nature. If the death drive is an inherent
20:30
part of us, because we intrinsically understand what death is, regardless of language,
20:36
just in there, then we can triumph over it by the power of
20:40
psychoanalysis and Freud and his contemporaries, right, And that's that's essentially what they're
20:45
landing on. So kind of going forward. If this is an inherent instinct,
20:49
which an instinct is does fined defined as quote an innate, typically fixed
20:55
pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli, So that's what an
21:00
instinct is. If this is an inherent instinct, then we have to understand
21:03
that this will never go away if it's part of our genetic code, right,
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we cannot therapize our instincts away. So rather, any intervention would quote
21:12
keep it in check if you will, but it wouldn't eliminate it. It's
21:15
the same. It's the equivalent is like of like saying like, oh,
21:18
you want to eat, We're going to therapize you're eating away so that you
21:22
don't eat ever, and you won't need to eat because eating in itself and
21:26
hunger is an innate thing. Right, some people would love that. Yeah,
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I know some people would absolutely love that. So the death drive is
21:33
on that same level of instinct and genetic requirement and innate motivation, right,
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It's it can never be therapized away, all right. So simply put,
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the death instinct never leaves. It can never be cured. It's just a
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part of the human experience. You've got it, you got it in you,
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right, you get it, got it good. This is the same
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as our survival, reproductive, and social instincts, among others. We have
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so many the thanatos and arrows are here to stay. They're just they're just
21:59
in there, just doing their thing. Never mind that they might contradict other
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instincts, or other instincts contradict them. They're there, just being there,
22:07
just doing their thing. Right. So, speaking of contradictions, let's talk
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for a second about the survival instinct. So we have an instinct towards death,
22:15
but we also have a survival instinct, which is toward life, right,
22:18
yeah, So which is different than arrows. Right. So, if
22:22
we're in danger, we're likely to engage in behavior to reduce that danger or
22:25
seek our safety. But if we are in a safe place, we are
22:27
also less likely to engage in safety seeking behaviors because we don't need to.
22:32
But if we have a death drive that's in place, then it wouldn't matter
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that we were safe, and it wouldn't matter that we had a survival instinct,
22:38
because the death instinct would probably override that in a lot of cases,
22:44
right sure, I mean, by the logic that we've discussed so far.
22:51
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no exactly. Also, the
22:53
existence of a survival instinct, again, it sort of negates the death instinct
22:59
at some level, arguably. I mean, we want to survive, but
23:03
we don't and we also want to have sex in between. I mean,
23:06
actually that sounds more like a Monday for me. But the idea here is
23:12
sort of like baseline is we are trying to survive, and superimposed on top
23:18
of that is we want to die or cause destruction or both. So that's
23:23
also kind of part of baseline, but we can overcome it with more of
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that. The implications here seem confusing to put it mildly, right, right,
23:34
That's kind of where I kind of land is, Like, it doesn't
23:37
necessarily on the surface makes sense, so if we really kind of get into
23:42
it though, like on the in all seriousness, all of these types of
23:47
generalized, kind of innate motivations lack a few things. Those few things that
23:51
they lacks are context, right, And that ultimately that's kind of what I
23:56
landed on as I was going through this. It was like, okay,
23:57
so context paints a picture for how motivations start to kind of speak up or
24:03
like act in a situation, right, like we motivations are created based on
24:07
context, as I would say, absolutely, yeah, I mean it is
24:10
the exact problem of calling everything a drive or an instinct. Without context,
24:15
one would assume that these instincts would be at war within ourselves, constantly battling
24:19
for the control over our behavior and decisions. At any given time, the
24:22
wolf of death instinct would override the wolf of our other survival instinct. But
24:27
these are separate wolves, never overlapping. They are the two wolves inside of
24:32
me, and they are indecisive. There was actually I just recently learned about
24:36
this. I think it's called a podcast. It's called The One You Feed.
24:37
That has to do with this idea of like which thing you feed inside
24:41
of you, which which desire, which drive. There's actually some kind of
24:45
utility to that way of thinking about it, I think. But anyway,
24:48
this is the similar idea here, right, And I guess they might even
24:53
point to this conflict and say, this is why we have suffering, This
24:57
is why we have depression, and this is why we have politics and all
25:03
the other bad things that humans do. Sure is because we have these death
25:07
drives and life drives warring inside us, and we just don't ever know what
25:11
to do at any point. So we're just kind of fumbling along doing the
25:15
things that we do. And that's the reason is because the raging internal war.
25:21
I do appreciate the idea that our death drive is the cause of politics,
25:23
right, like, so it is it is like the manifestation of our
25:27
death drive, where we say, you know what, we all really want
25:30
to die, so like, let's go ahead and start a political system full
25:33
of rich white people that can't make any decisions for anybody but themselves, like
25:37
and then argue about things that really don't matter, like this is really good.
25:40
American politics are the manifestation of the death drive. I was thinking the
25:44
other day how much fun it would be to unpack how kings ever came to
25:48
be, Like how did the monarchies get started? Sure, because I'm like
25:52
at some point, like that got really off the rails really quickly, and
25:55
it's some like I'm curious at what point someone was like, you know,
25:57
we should have that one person have all the privilege, just all of it,
26:03
that they should have all of it and like no questions asked. That's
26:06
just it from now on. And everyone's like, yeah, okay, I
26:08
don't know if you play a lot of games on your phone, but like
26:11
I play these games where like Royal Match or whatever comes up a lot,
26:15
and it's like always a king that's like stuck in a trap, that's like
26:18
your whole goal is to save the king. And I was like, they
26:22
don't know their audience like there's not a chance I'm gonna save a king,
26:26
like like we don't need kings, like no gods, no emperors, nothing
26:29
like that. But you know, but they're gonna go ahead and market a
26:32
game that they want me to save a white king. No thanks, I'm
26:33
not doing it. So I think ultimately what we land on here is without
26:37
context, our instincts don't kick in, right, So, like good point,
26:40
without something acting upon us, our instincts never kick in. I don't
26:45
start engaging in survival instincts if there's nothing to survive from, right, right,
26:48
Like, oh, maybe I put on a beanie today, like I
26:51
put on a hat so like I'm cold, So that maybe that was a
26:52
survival instinct thing. I don't know. Anyway, if we're safe, we're
26:56
not likely to engage in our survival instincts. So instinct is not behavior.
27:00
We can recognize that. So even if the instinct is there, the behavior
27:03
is not guaranteed to occur. Even if the death instinct is there. If
27:07
we want to assume that it's a real thing and that it's there, it
27:11
doesn't necessarily guarantee that we're going to engage in destructive behavior. Or self harm
27:15
behavior or anything like that. And I think that's also an important kind of
27:18
lying to draw when it comes to this theory. Yeah, it doesn't make
27:22
sense until the circumstances are there that you'd have the opportunity to do something,
27:26
and then you try and point to the thing that you've done and say,
27:29
oh, is because of this instinct. But you know, gently insert and
27:34
slip in ads here. All right, let's uh not that we haven't been
27:47
snarky this whole time, and if those ads are really threw you off and
27:52
you're like, wait, what were you talking about again? Who knows?
27:53
I mean, we've largely been talking about the thin natos and arrows thing,
27:57
this idea of survival and instinct. Let's actually like, like I said,
28:02
we've been snarky, but let's really tear it apart now. First of all,
28:06
in the science itself, Blanco in two thousand and five discusses a few
28:08
holes in the theory, and I think that these are worth noting. Sure.
28:11
First, Freud's work is largely based on concepts like the unconscious. However,
28:15
since death is an unknown quantity to humans, i e. We have
28:18
never knowingly experienced death, I mean unless we want to talk reincarnation and stuff
28:22
like that. That's a different conversation. I like the people who like die
28:25
for like a few minutes and then I'm rep back. Probably, Yeah,
28:27
that's probably the closest. But for the most part, when it comes to
28:30
the unconscious specifically, it's an unknown quantity, we haven't experienced that. Then
28:34
the unconscious can't actually drive behavior towards something that it's never experienced or away from
28:40
it because it's never experienced it. So that's kind of a weird thing that
28:44
that's one of the discussions in the article. The second thing, the unconscious
28:47
does not recognize time and space. So because it doesn't recognize time in space,
28:52
because it doesn't operate in time and space because it's not real, such
28:55
parameters around instinct are absent. So for an instinct to arise in a place
29:00
where time and space doesn't exist, it doesn't make any sense from like a
29:04
theoretical standpoint. So those two things, besides, there's multiple arguments in this
29:10
article that talk about why they can't coexist. I thought that was kind of
29:14
an interesting way to look at it. It's like unconscious in itself besides not
29:17
existing doesn't exist in a place where time and space does exist, and because
29:21
of that, instincts cannot exist in that space. That's fair, it's almost
29:25
in a way entertaining freud beyond what is necessary to like. But I mean
29:30
unpacking, you know. Point for point I think is relevant. So sure,
29:33
Core tar in twenty twenty two attempts to explain terrorist tendencies related to being
29:40
the unwelcome child. The argument is such, the unwelcome child has low arrows
29:45
instinct life and life drive, and greater thanatos instinct the death drive, leading
29:51
to less self preservation instincts and a greater penchant for destructive behavior. Right,
29:56
I think our point is getting really clear here. The ultimate argument here as
30:00
whether there is an intrinsic motivation toward more distructive behavior. This doesn't align with
30:03
any behavioral discussions that we've had on the show already, and from a parsimonious
30:07
perspective, is it really more likely that someone engages an aggressive or self destructive
30:11
behavior because of some immediate reward, either biological in the form of some feedback
30:17
or input, or social in the form of some environmental context or some delivery
30:21
system. Or is it an innate process that no matter what we do we
30:23
will never get better. I feel like the environment still kind of rules over
30:29
the scenario. Well, yeah, I mean the death drive, just like
30:32
any other instinct, repeatedly and continuously falls flat in the face of context,
30:37
circumstance, and the conditions we've described under which behavior tends to occur. As
30:41
Shane was typing these notes, he was sitting in his office having a delicious
30:45
cup of coffee, listening to feel good music of the seventies and eighties bops,
30:49
a playlist that will include in the links here. Yes, there's not
30:52
a single part of Shane that wanted to walk into the void drive off a
30:56
cliff. I mean, there aren't really options for that in Florida, but
31:00
or engage in any sort of behavior that was violent or destructive. So in
31:03
that context, my needs were all met and met quite well. As a
31:07
matter of fact, I brewed my own coffee and it was delicious and life
31:10
is good and maybe that's the nature of instinct. But in the event that
31:14
I felt some urge or motivation to engage in all that behavior, all it
31:17
takes is a change of context and I'm free of it. Right, So,
31:19
like, if I'm starting to feel real bad about something, all I
31:22
do is just turn the heat on so I'm not cold. Look, I'm
31:25
good, all right. So does that speak to innate nature or just by
31:27
circumstances? And I think it's very clear that it lands on circumstances. Really
31:33
quickly, we'll just revisit this discussion of like the tendency to call something innate,
31:37
to call it a drive, to call it an instinct. If you
31:40
drink to excess, you have an alcoholic drive or instinct. Do you play
31:44
video games? You have a video game drive or instinct. You're literally just
31:48
saying this is a behavior that you're doing, plus the word instinct right right.
31:52
It doesn't at all explain how that behavior came to be or why it's
31:56
there. And it also presumes, like instinct this in play drive, it
32:00
presumes again that this is part of the natural human experience. They've actually said
32:04
as much that that has been explicitly stated. It's not even a intrinsic detail.
32:08
It is an explicitly stated feature of the condition of the idea of instinct
32:14
and drive, et cetera. And if that's the case, that presumes that
32:17
our genes, that we've evolved over hundreds of thousands of years have presumably we're
32:25
like, at some point, I'm going to know what a beanie is,
32:30
so I am going to program for when cold find beanie. That is the
32:35
drive, right, And I think you could that's been a little bit snarky.
32:37
You can make the argument that it was when cold find warmth and that
32:42
beanie just happens to be a thing that you've learned represents warmth. But again,
32:45
all you're doing is as you're painting the thing that you've done into the
32:50
circumstance that has arrived. And even find warmth I think is not as parsimonious
32:55
as we could be. That is like when cold escape cold is I think
33:00
a little more conservative way of describing it it which could be anything. This
33:05
is crawling a hole, bury yourselves with leaves, find fire, put on
33:08
a coat, run, build an ice house, Yeah, an ice house,
33:13
do anything that increases your your body temperature and some capacity, lay naked
33:16
with a bunch of people. That could be a thing that happens. It
33:19
does and like all of those things, so like happens to all of us,
33:22
what the solution is, and like how it's arrived at. And then
33:27
they are those who are like, for whatever reason that thing doesn't happen.
33:31
Well, not get to do it too much, but like as you get
33:35
very cold and your body, your body starts to shut down in warmth or
33:37
lack of cold no longer seems very motivating. Arguing that that is a death
33:42
drive makes a lot less sense than saying, actually, what happens is that
33:45
our blood, like our body is starting to shut down, and like our
33:49
brain is no longer really sensitive to those kinds of things. It's just sort
33:52
of like turn off power to stations. We're going to sleep now, sure,
33:57
and definitely, but you know, permanently, like they can't handle this
34:00
anymore, can't survive the situation. One thing that I keep kind of going
34:05
back to is like, okay, so these theories in this discussion was one
34:07
hundred years ago, right, So this was also a period of time where
34:12
you know, they didn't know. There's no way to know as much as
34:16
we do now. And that's fine because in one hundred years from now,
34:19
we're going to sound like like we had no idea what we're talking about,
34:22
which we might sound like already, but we're definitely gonna sound like it in
34:24
one hundred years. You know, things that we understand about psychology today,
34:30
you know, things like self harming behavior, destructive behavior, compulsions, all
34:34
of those things are better explained through what we understand of the current science that
34:38
came out decades after these discussions. So we're talking, you know, we
34:43
understand more about brain anatomy. We understand more about biology and neurology and how
34:47
there's those interplaces. We understand more about psychotropic medication. We understand more about
34:52
mental health diagnoses. To some degree, we understand at least a little bit
34:55
more than what they understood back then. A lot more about genetics too,
34:59
Yeah, lot more about genetics. And so I think when we've kind of
35:01
unpacked this, we have to also. I think the most charitable I can
35:06
be is that you had a group of people that didn't know better. They
35:08
knew what they knew at the time, and they just didn't know any better.
35:12
Right, That's as far as I can go. At the time too,
35:15
I mean, when we're talking about the stuff that was coming up,
35:16
there were other scientists that were doing a better job of being scientists at the
35:20
time. So while you had a group of people that didn't know what was
35:22
going on, you had another group of people who were actually studying science and
35:25
other people who were just talking out of their asses about death drives and stuff
35:30
like that. If I wanted to be unnecessarily charitable to the idea of this
35:37
thing, I think the point that I would make is that arguably there is
35:44
only life drive even when we do destructive things. If you imagine things like
35:50
wars and battles, those are often motivated by a desire to protect your resources,
35:57
eliminate a threat, secure your your region, or your people, or
36:01
your boundary, whatever that might be. If you think about things even that
36:06
are like self destructive, the people engage in they often are also associated with
36:10
hedonistic pleasures of things that we enjoy, things that feel good, or even
36:15
when we know that they're self destructive and they don't even feel good. Oftentimes
36:19
it is the like I'm in such pain, I seek some other outlet to
36:23
eliminate the pain. So the drive is escape aversiveness in these situations. So
36:30
I think if I were to charitably point to any part of this, it's
36:32
that there is a huge amount of reward built into our instinctual Oh God,
36:39
I hate even saying this because it's so dumb, but let's just pretend,
36:43
for example, that we have all of these instinctual behaviors, but if those
36:47
are exist, they are to preserve us exclusively. Like, even the things
36:52
that we do that look destructive, self destructive and harmful, you can usually
36:57
and I think always, tie back to some tendency of escaping aversive things that
37:01
are associated with more harm, and sometimes that is even self destruction to the
37:07
point of death. I was like, I'm in such pain. The only
37:10
escape from this pain is death. I'm in such like this is such an
37:15
aversive situation. The only escape is to cause an enormous amount of destruction,
37:19
which may even risk my own well being, right, Like you could maybe
37:22
wrap it up in that. So this idea that we have a drive toward
37:24
death and destruction really doesn't make any sense. Even though I'm trying to be
37:29
charitable, as you said, I think the nicest thing that you can be
37:31
is like poor stupid children. You really did not know very much back then,
37:36
and you were just trying, you know, you like, well know
37:39
that science is around, but we don't really understand how it applies to what
37:44
we're trying to do, and we're really not going to bother trying to find
37:45
out how it applies to what we're doing. So instead, we're just going
37:50
to speculate wildly and write books about it. And boy did they you know.
37:53
And that's where I feel like the army of psychoanalysts are going to come
37:58
at us, is like, you know, it's because we are for the
38:00
same reason when people kind of like go into some of the works that we
38:05
believe are like seminal works, like I understand, I understand that, like
38:08
in defense of your field, Like I understand that want and that need.
38:12
But at the end of the day, this particular thing just doesn't make sense
38:15
for what we understand about behavior today. And arguably this particular thing that we're
38:21
talking about didn't make sense for the what we understood about behavior back then.
38:24
Yes, I think that's the thing that I want to kind of go back
38:28
to. It's like, back then we had enough information about how behavior worked,
38:30
at least enough to understand how this didn't make as much sense as what
38:35
we understand today. Yeah. Yeah, And that's exactly I was going to
38:38
sort of add that piece, is that this is not even this wasn't even
38:44
a good contemporary analysis. Arguably at the time that the first book was being
38:47
written in the in eight or eighteen Like then, I'm like, yeah,
38:51
the science of psychology practically didn't exist at that point, right, it was
38:55
at best there was some philosophers who had decided that they could also apply their
39:00
general ideas to things like talking about human behavior. And you had some versions
39:06
of it, like the book that that guy wrote in the early eighteen hundreds.
39:08
Yeah, jingle Heimrichman, Yeah, in the nineteen twenties, Like at
39:12
this point, we already had Watson, we already had Skinner, we already
39:15
had Pavlov, we already had William James. We had people who had been
39:19
speculating, writing, researching, and talking about this for decades. So there
39:24
really wasn't an excuse for that to make a lot of sense other than this
39:29
renaissance of what I would call whimsical musings about psychology. And we talked about
39:36
Freud. He was an interesting character. He actually was not so devoid of
39:40
contributions that like everything he did was completely acid nine. Sure he had some
39:45
things that he did that actually were helpful for the field of psychology, for
39:49
sure, But we just talked about, you know, ideas like this and
39:51
his contemporaries and the things they wrote about, and it's just sort of like,
39:57
no, I like it to this. I think you're right, Like
40:00
I think that, like you know, when you talk about figures like this,
40:02
I think that it is important to understand that, Like people are complicated,
40:06
and there are lots of things to unpack within that space. Like,
40:09
yes, there are things that he contributed, and he contributed to a field
40:13
that continued to advance and continue to grow, and there is some there is
40:16
some of that influence there. We can't ignore the influence. But your favorite
40:21
band has a song that you don't listen to and that's okay, Like,
40:25
that's that's kind of what this is. This is the B side that didn't
40:29
make the cut because you don't like it, right, this is the thing
40:31
that was left on the cutting room floor in the studio because it wasn't good
40:35
enough to make the album. Like, that's what this is, and I
40:38
think it's important to understand that, Like, whatever you want to say about
40:43
the rest of his work, we're not talking about the rest of his work.
40:45
We're talking about this particular thing which wasn't good enough to stand the test
40:47
of time. I almost like the title the B side that didn't make the
40:52
cut as the title for this episode. But then I think people would think
40:55
that we were talking about this episode yea, as like a B side episode,
41:00
and I do not. I think this is a This is a side
41:01
A episode, not like side b ads. We managed to stretch this out,
41:15
this one out a lot. I'm impressed. We do have some interesting
41:16
tidbits and take homes and then and then we'll wrap this up for today.
41:22
I think, yeah, I think that sounds good. So one of the
41:23
things that I think is important to know too is like, after all of
41:27
this stuff was developed, Freud had a lot of students that worked with him,
41:30
and some of students tried to further classify those instincts, developing terms like
41:35
mortito, which is the energy withdrawal, withdrawal related to libido, destrudo which
41:39
was the death instinct that they went on, and ego libido, which is
41:44
really fun to say, that is fun to say. There are a lot
41:45
of terms that they kind of tried to coin and come up with and continue
41:49
to research, but none of them really stuck. Arrows has a magical bow
41:52
and arrow that helps people fall in love. Interesting idea that might be worth
41:58
unpacking at some point, The idea that you shoot someone with an arrow to
42:01
make them fall in love. Different implication for a world in which guns exist.
42:07
But even back then, I don't think an arrow was traditionally known for
42:13
its nurturing capabilities, not for its kindness. Yeah first kindness, Yeah,
42:19
swords and hearts. So anyway, arrows eventually married a mortal woman named Princess
42:23
Psyche, and hence psychology was born. Yes, I guess a modern version
42:29
of the bow and Arrow would be love Gun, which is the kiss song,
42:35
which I think is a reference to a penis. Okay, wow,
42:37
I would imagine, I would imagine knowing kiss it was definitely it's definitely a
42:43
reference to a penis. How did the words love gun, kiss, and
42:46
penis make it into an episode about Freud? I don't think there was that
42:50
far of a stretch. I think that was I think that was like a
42:52
one degree removed if we're talking about Freud in sext so yeah, almost a
42:57
guarantee. Actually Freud a kiss guaranteed. I mean when you have songs like
43:00
lick it Up. Yeah, we uh, it's it's right there. It's
43:05
low hanging fruit. But pretty impressed that we got to kiss somehow. It's
43:08
low hanging swinging fruit. A now Thanatos was not born of the gods.
43:14
Rather, he was a piece of Nix's spirit to come to life, or
43:17
depending on what you have read, he was born of the gods. He
43:22
was a son of Nixon Arabos, so two other Greek gods in here.
43:25
Now Thanatos was the god who brought peaceful deaths, like he was the god
43:30
of death who brought peaceful deaths. He was known to have a soft touch,
43:34
and he's often characterized by holding an upside down torch and a butterfly or
43:37
a wreath. The butterflyer wreath signified the souls of the dead that he would
43:42
carry with him to the underworld to his cousin Hades. Now Dandos was also
43:46
a twin. His twin, Hypnos, was the god of sleep, and
43:52
this is where the saying death and his brother's sleep was originated from. Huh
43:57
interesting, Yeah, well, it's say some tick on points here. I
43:59
think you know, Freud took a few ideas from women who are slightly smarter
44:04
than he was and deserved more recognition than he did. Specifically, we're talking
44:07
about Sabina here, who actually wrote this down first, wasn't actually the first,
44:12
like someone preceded Sabina, even though as we've seen, but at least
44:15
in the contemporaries of Freud, Sabina should have gotten the credit for this.
44:19
But it is how things go, so that's what happened with Freud. I
44:22
think the other thing, too, is that there is no true utility and
44:25
understanding what this thing is, if this thing even existed. I think there
44:30
are better ways to explain behavior, and I think there are better ways to
44:32
explain I guess the overall kind of like how general motivation works, beyond just
44:38
believing that every single person the day they are born has a drive towards death.
44:43
Yeah, if you if you're writing a college essay and you have to
44:46
summarize this, hopefully you have enough fodder here to at least different job and
44:51
suring started. But I also think you can just you know, criticize the
44:53
shit out of it for being a useless herd of a theory. It's or
44:58
a hypothesis, barely hypothesis, a speculative musing of a person who was on
45:02
a little bit too much cocaine at the time. Sure, again, it
45:06
falls into the trap of trying to explain everything by calling it an instinct when
45:08
you observe a behavior to happen at all, like that that happened, because
45:12
it's an instinct that is essentially the sort of thesis that I would at least
45:15
land on in terms of why it's problematic is that it is descriptive without context.
45:21
It is not prescriptive, It is not helpful, and is not parsimonious
45:23
conceptually, philosophically or clinically. I think you nailed it. I think that
45:28
would have been my final take on point. I think that you said exactly
45:30
what I was going to say in exactly the same words, and I couldn't
45:32
say it better myself. A nailed that. Coffin door shut. One more
45:37
myth in the ground busted. All right, Well, if you're joining us
45:42
for the first time, thank you so much for being here. I hope
45:45
that this was useful for you and your trivia nights or just your general thought
45:50
provoking weekend. You know, weekly ideas. It's you know, people call
45:53
it Humptay. I guess if it comes out on Wednesday, So if you're
45:55
listening to it, then something that if you're joining us for the first time
45:59
you may not know is that we just recommend some things that's fun we start
46:01
by talking about holidays. Yeah, at the top of our episodes, we
46:05
end by talking about fun things. In the middle, we do a lot
46:07
of ranting and yelling and stream of consciousness type of head Yes, we do.
46:13
But before we get to some recommendations, it is important to acknowledge the
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46:59
Kim Josh, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian and Ashley. Thank
47:02
you all again and again and forever. Yes, you all are the greatest.
47:07
Lots of arrows to you, Yes, so much arros. Not being
47:10
shot with arrows, but arrows, you know. In addition, I could
47:16
not do this without the help of my awesome, excellent team of wonderful people
47:20
writing and fact checking from Shane and myself with special credits. Shane put this
47:23
whole thing together today. So thank you for your work on this week,
47:25
dud anytime. It was so great. Of course, audio engineering and editing
47:30
comes from Justin. Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. Is there anything
47:35
you'd like to add or anything that I forgot before we get to our recommendations?
47:38
No, I think that covers it. Okay, arrows away, recommendation
47:43
time recommendations. I'm gonna recommend really quick a movie that I saw recently for
47:53
those of you who are into superhero type films. This one was so much
47:59
better than I've thought it was going to be, So maybe I shouldn't even
48:01
recommendation and tell you to go into it with very low expectations, because that's
48:06
what I did, and it worked out. For me, I don't want
48:10
to overhype this, but I was expecting just nothing from this movie, and
48:14
it was better than I thought. This was The Flash. This is the
48:16
twenty twenty three movie about the character and the DC universe called The Flash who
48:22
he just moves very quickly, and I think a quick synopsis of this movie
48:27
is sort of a time travel thing is a way to put this. Yeah,
48:30
like I said, without getting into spoilers, without unpacking too much,
48:34
it was just it had a lot more heart and a lot more guts than
48:37
I expected it to have. And like, yeah, it's not a perfect
48:39
movie. It's not the best movie you'll ever see, but it was good,
48:44
Like I enjoyed it. At least I thought it was better. Again,
48:45
I thought it was better than I expected it to be, and I
48:49
appreciated what they did with the film. So I think, particularly if you're
48:52
up on your DC comics lore, you'll probably enjoy features of it more,
48:58
mostly the movies. If you've seen a lot of the movies, I mean,
49:00
the more lower you have, they shoehorn in a lot of Easter eggs.
49:04
I mean, I think if you are if you've at least seen like
49:07
a bunch of the Batman movies and a bunch of the Superman movies, and
49:10
you have a pretty good understanding of like what happened in the DC universe,
49:15
generally speaking, the DCEU, the like the movie universe, then you'll probably
49:20
appreciate this. If you're familiar with the comics, you'll appreciate this, I
49:22
think earliest parts of this. So, uh, yeah, that's what I
49:24
have to say about the Flash. That's my recommendation. Yeah, it's kind
49:29
of like Butterfly Effects without Ashton Kutcher. Yeah, and a lot more CGI,
49:34
just so lot a lot more CGI. Yes, it's a worthy watch,
49:37
I would say, I agree with that, all right, So I'm
49:40
recommending a band. This album came out in two thousand and three, so
49:43
it's over twenty years old now, which is it hurts me to say that,
49:46
But if you are familiar with this very specific period of time where post
49:52
hardcore in the EMO all that stuff was like really popular and a lot of
49:54
bands had a lot of really long song titles and really long album titles,
49:59
then you will relate to this and you will love it so much. So
50:01
this band is called Bear Verse Shark and the album is called Right Now you're
50:05
in the best of hands, and if something isn't quite right, your doctor
50:07
will know in a hurry. Wow. I bet that whole line appears in
50:10
the song several times somewhere. They do have a song called we Were Sad
50:14
but now we're rebuilding on this album, which is really cool. So this
50:17
band is really interesting. I think they're really catchy. I think they are
50:22
really unique. I think the guy's voice, the singer's voice, is really
50:24
unique. I think some of his lyrics are really fun. I think that
50:28
they are like a more optimistic and happy me without you, Like. I
50:32
think that they are just like a more poppy version like where the guy's lyrics
50:37
are like a little bit off. His vocals are kind of really strange,
50:39
like he doesn't sound like anybody else, and they're just a really good I
50:43
think this is just a really good example of kind of that time where people
50:46
were being really creative and really interesting with the genre and not just a bunch
50:51
of starting lines. Yeah. I really really love, love, love love
50:55
this album, and I think it's I think it's worth giving it a lesson.
50:58
Okay, fair enough. I think it holds up really well because maybe
51:01
that you're the one with a guy just talked to the whole time. Yes,
51:04
yes, that is the band. Uh huh, okay, so the
51:07
modern B fifty two is basically yeah, but without any spunk, you know.
51:13
Yeah it look at Poet's B fifty two's sure. I don't know if
51:17
I've ever listened to this album, but I'm curious. You piqued my interest
51:21
here, so I actually think that you would really like it because it's so
51:24
interesting, and I know what kind of music you like. I think that
51:28
you would actually really think this one. Okay, fair enough, all right,
51:31
Well, if you'd like to tell us about Bear versus Shark or the
51:34
Flash, or anything related to psychoanalysis that we got wrong or we got right,
51:37
or you just like to compliment us on our hairs, I mean that
51:39
you saw our hair somehow, that would be impress it. But if you'd
51:43
like to do any of those things, you should reach out to us directly.
51:45
You can email us at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com if you're old
51:50
like us, or you can reach out to us on social media platforms.
51:52
We're on most of them, the regular ones, anyway, and you can
51:54
find us there. We're not on the ones that are currently circling the drain
51:58
of a toilet. But we're on the normal social media platforms and we do
52:01
have someone will talk to you if you're trying and talk to us, someone
52:06
on the team at least. Anyway, we look forward to hearing from you,
52:08
so please reach out to us and do that thing. I think that
52:10
is all that I have to add here. Is there anything else to add
52:14
before we wrap up? I got nothing else? Okay, thank you all
52:15
for listening. This is Abraham and this is Shane. We are out see
52:20
yup, you've been listening to Why We Do what we do. You can
52:23
learn more about this and other episodes by going to WWD WWD podcast dot com.
52:30
Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.