Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 23: Bathsheba Didn't Ask For This

Transcript

Ep. 23: Bathsheba Didn't Ask For This · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

0:00
Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
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My name is Alyssa.
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And my name's Bri.
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We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
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We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
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word.
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And apparently that's controversial.
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Get comfy.
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My feet are tan.
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But my legs are not.
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Bri has the absolute most hilarious tan lines right now.
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Like Birkenstock tan lines times 5,000.
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I'm a Birkenstock girly, but I also am a leggings girly.
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So I got like two brown stripes on my feet.
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So if you haven't listened recently, we just got back from Disney a couple of days ago.
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It seems like forever ago.
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It does.
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It feels like we've been back to real life for a long time.
1:13
Back to reality?
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Oh, there goes gravity.
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I think the issue is that we got back from Disney and like jumped directly back into
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real life and that has taken a toll on me.
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Well we got back.
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We did, okay.
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Stupid things.
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We did stupid things.
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So we got on a flight, the evening flight.
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It was like 6.30.
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So we didn't actually get back to the house until like 11.30 and then I had work the next
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day.
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Yeah.
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And my daughter went to school the next day.
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So we ended up and I wasn't supposed to work, but work scheduled me because that's what
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they do in life.
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And my husband worked.
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It was a mess.
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Are you guys enjoying our complaining?
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Listen, we're having a hard time.
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So we've had to settle in with two glasses of wine.
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We're having wine.
2:07
A new segment.
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Wine down with a Lisanne Brianna.
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I love it.
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How do we do that?
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We invite everybody to also have a glass of wine and listen to our rants and our raging.
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We are not particularly wound down people.
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We're kind of like high key people.
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So we're wound tight.
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Hang on.
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I gotta have a sip.
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Oh, me too.
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Mine is called like lime light or something and it's got hints of key lime and I, it's,
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I can't quite decide.
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You don't like it because key limes are gross.
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No, key lime is good.
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You're insane.
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I'm not.
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Okay.
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But have you ever had, I know you've had it because I've had it with you people out there
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in computer land.
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Have you ever had the lemon cello La Croix's because those I think are disgusting.
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Absolutely horrendous.
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It's like vanilla.
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Yeah.
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It tastes like, you know, those cookies that are supposed to be sandwich cookies and you
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get them in Sunday school and they're lemon.
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Yeah.
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They taste like vanilla, but it's a cookie.
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So that's acceptable.
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Yeah, but not in a beverage.
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This is a beverage and a sparkling beverage.
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Yeah.
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It tastes like La Croix.
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So really it's just like someone yelled, lemon cello across the room and you took a sip of
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water, a sip of sparkling water though.
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So it's better.
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Oh, we can't even make fun of it.
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We like La Croix's.
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I do.
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I have a poster of La Croix in my room.
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You do.
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I'm looking at it right now.
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It's very Andy Warhol.
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It was brought to you by Lydia.
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So yeah, we're back.
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We've got the Disney saddies.
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Last week we were hanging out with Mickey Mouse.
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So this, it's tough.
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I'll be honest with you.
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I watched a video today on being your true authentic self and your realist self.
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And I want to be really real with everybody.
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Oh dear.
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I have not recovered from my sweat mustache from Florida.
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I still am struggling with it for some reason, just this upper lip sweat that doesn't want
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to go away.
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And we're in Michigan now, like in the morning it's 53 degrees.
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That's cold.
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It was hot today though.
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I have like, what's happening?
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I don't know.
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Yeah, it was hot in Florida.
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I have not.
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Okay.
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My birthday is in the winter.
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I am a winter baby.
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I do not do heat or mugginess.
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It gets muggy in Michigan, but there it's just different.
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I can do a fair bit of heat if I'm sitting down.
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Like I'm going out to the patio to have a glass of wine or we're just stepping outside
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and then directly back into the air conditioning.
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But it was hot.
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I think the real feel most days was like 106 or something.
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And we all looked disgusting.
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Yeah we did.
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We were like swamp people.
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I just don't know how people function in that level of humidity.
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People out there, hey, do we have any listeners in Florida?
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We do.
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How are you dealing with the heat?
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Do you constantly feel like a swamp monster?
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Go to our TikTok and let us know.
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With the hashtag, we are more swamp monsters.
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You know how Lady Gaga calls all of her followers little monsters?
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Yeah.
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Oh, our listeners are swamp monsters.
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Why?
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Because we're hot.
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That sentence just kept getting worse.
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Sorry.
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On that note, speaking of hot, boy does Alyssa have a story for you.
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Boy do I have a story.
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And it's not about rubber ducks.
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You'll understand if you've seen Veggie Tales.
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All right.
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For the drinking game, Bree said Veggie Tales.
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There you go.
6:09
There you go.
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So today we are starting a series.
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I think it's going to be a three parter, but frankly I'm going to keep talking about it
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till I feel like not talking about it anymore.
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Because it's our podcast and not yours.
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So we're going to be talking about one of the Bible characters that I think is potentially
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one of the most influential women in the Bible and definitely one that has shaped the way
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that women are talked about in church.
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Very true.
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And I've wanted to talk about her for a long time, but we just haven't.
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We've had a lot to talk about.
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I don't know.
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We haven't dedicated the time to it yet.
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And so we're going to start probably a three parter on Bathsheba and her story, which is
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in I think 2nd Samuel.
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Let me look that up real quick.
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Now guys, I want you to know that in researching for this particular set of episodes, I read
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this portion.
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So it's 2nd Samuel 11 and then it extends into 12, chapter 12.
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And I read this story in four different translations, which wow.
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Including Aramaic in Greek.
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No, I didn't do that.
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She's lying.
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I just really wanted to boost your confidence.
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Did you just want to say Aramaic?
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Yep.
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No, I read this in the NIV and the message.
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And then I thought, all right, those are like the two of the translations that I turn to
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often.
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Now the message is not a translation, but those are two that I read semi-often.
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And I thought I should probably read this from a different perspective because of the
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way that I've heard it preached.
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And we'll get into that in a second.
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So I also read it in the ESV, which we are not a fan of.
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And then the BLT.
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No, that's not a thing.
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It's a thing.
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It's just not a Bible.
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Bree's hungry.
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No, and then I also read it in the KJV.
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So the King James version, the KJV, is one that we don't talk about a ton, I don't think.
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There's a lot of these thousand vies.
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It's just one of the ones that's a lot older.
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So yeah, it's written in Old English.
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It can be tough to understand.
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And when we go, we'll do an episode on translations at some point.
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And when we do that, we'll talk a little bit about people's view of the King James version.
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But it's not one of my favorites.
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If it's one of your favorites, that's totally fine.
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It's just not one of my preferred versions.
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So what I'm going to do is kind of just go through the story of Bathsheba.
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Like I said, Bathsheba's story is told in 2 Samuel.
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And I can't tell you how many times I've heard this preached.
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Women don't get talked about from this church stage a lot.
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The pulpit.
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The pulpit.
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Thank you.
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But when they do, when they do, it's usually negative.
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And when it comes to Bathsheba, that is definitely the case.
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So we're going to go through some of the preconceived notions and then kind of the general story.
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And then the next couple of weeks, we're going to go into some of our good friends who have
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done really great research on this topic.
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Our BFFs.
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Yes.
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Beth, I'm looking for you.
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Someday.
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I hope that she listens to this, but also I hope that she doesn't because she might be
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frightened with how much we reference her.
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I refer to people exclusively as my best friends.
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Oh.
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Often.
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So when this story gets brought up in church, Bathsheba is often portrayed as the bad guy,
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bad girl.
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I don't really know.
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Her mischievous girl.
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Is that a song?
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I'm sorry.
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Who are you?
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Yes, it is.
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What song is that?
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Promiscuous Girl.
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What is it?
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You've heard it.
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I'm actually genuinely upset that I don't know this song.
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How dare you?
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Anyway.
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So when this story gets told, Bathsheba is often portrayed as the promiscuous girl.
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Thank you.
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You're welcome.
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She's the one who seduces David, who is the king of Israel at the time.
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She's the bad guy, right?
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In most versions of this.
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Because women are so often referred to exclusively as sexual objects.
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Yes.
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So we're going to go into her story.
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Like I said, I'm just going to tell her story in a little bit of the way that we told the
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story of the woman at the well a couple of weeks ago, and just kind of make her into
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more of a real person.
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Now her name really is not mentioned all that many times for as much as we focus on her
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and have heard her name before.
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She's definitely part of the story, but she's not really the main part of the story.
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So the main character in her own story.
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Well I mean the story is mostly about King David being a jerk.
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And King David was Larry the Cucumber.
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Okay just to just lay it out there, the Veggie Tales did a video about this story.
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And it's really truly bad.
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Except that they couldn't do it exactly how it is because the story is all about sex and
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Veggie Tales can't do that.
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So they made it about rubber duckies.
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Obviously because all sex links back to rubber ducks throughout history.
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So the real story.
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So this is like I said 2 Samuel 11 and 12.
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This goes into 12 a little bit.
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And their lineage goes further as well, but those are the chapters we're going to focus
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on because that's a lot of verses folks.
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It's a lot of reading when you've read it four separate times.
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So the story starts off with the Israelite army off to war.
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So they're gone.
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They are going against the Ammonites who they've been at war with before.
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So I think the Ammonites attacked them at some point.
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So they've been going back and forth for a while.
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And the Bible literally says it's the time of year when kings go off to war.
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I don't know why.
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The spring is the time for war I guess.
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No it's for war.
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I should write that down.
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You should.
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Spring is coming Bree, you better prepare.
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I'm practically here.
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So anyway King David has sent his people off to war, but he has not gone to war, which
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is significant in this story.
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Most people, most of the Israelite people probably would have assumed that he had gone
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off to war.
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It would have been the expectation that he went with his army because it's his time.
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And also remember that David was a soldier in the past.
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When we're talking about King David here, we're talking about the same guy that knocked
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Goliath out with a single stone.
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And then I kind of forgot about that.
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There's so many Davids.
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There's just the one in the Bible though.
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It's just the one and he's got a lot of stories.
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What?
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Bree needs to go back to Bible college.
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I graduated from one.
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So David is not at war.
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He's in his palace, right?
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Now his palace is at the top of the hill.
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It's the highest point.
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It's the most defensible point.
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As all palaces should be.
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As they should be.
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Think like giant castle on top of a mountain.
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Okay.
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I mean, not really because it's a desert, but it's a hill.
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It's a hill.
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It's on top of a hill.
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So when you're on top of a hill, you tend to have the best vantage point, right?
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Like you can see about.
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And they did that for a reason so that defense would be better.
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However, David apparently is being a bit of a creep.
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I'm a creep.
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Now that one I knew.
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Thank you.
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I'm surprised that you know that one, but not the other one.
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I don't know.
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Nellie was not a big part of my childhood.
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So the story continues on that David essentially took a midday nap.
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Now I don't know if this was cultural and normal.
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The Bible kind of treats it like it's just midday nap.
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That's normal time.
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Midday nap.
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I wish I could have a midday nap.
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It was like his, what do they call it?
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Siesta?
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Yeah, Siesta.
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It was his Siesta.
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So he gets up from that.
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It's like evening time.
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So I think dusk, people are headed to bed, whatever.
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So he gets up and he goes straight to the roof.
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Odd choice.
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I do that every once in a while.
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But that's what he does.
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He goes straight to the roof and he looks around.
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Now the Bible doesn't say this, this is totally Alyssa's thoughts and opinions.
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But to me, why are you going off on your roof, bud?
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Is that normal behavior?
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I feel like David has done this before and he knows what windows to look in.
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I mean he's being a peeping Tom, right?
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That's clearly based on the rest of the story, that's what he's doing.
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Because what happens is he sees Bathsheba.
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Now she, it depends on the translation.
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Certain translations and certain scholars have said she was on her roof and certain
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translations and scholars say she was in her house.
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Either way, this gets lots of pastors.
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Pastors like to make a big deal out of the fact that she was publicly bathing.
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As though she was standing there like, oh, King, please look out at me at this moment
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while I bathe.
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Don't wave my fan in your direction.
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Yeah.
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No.
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She was in her home.
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She was in her home.
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It's evening time.
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She has an expectation of privacy.
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Just like if you were in your home, you get home from a rough day of work, you go head
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to the bath and maybe your curtains aren't all the way closed and someone peeks in.
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Is that on you?
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No.
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No.
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No, it's not.
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Either way, whether she's on her roof or in her house.
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She did not consent to someone peeping at her.
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Exactly.
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At no point was this okay.
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I don't care if she was laying naked in her yard.
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Well, I mean, really, like how many of us have gone out on the back porch and suntanned
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or something like that?
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You know, you have an expectation of privacy in your space.
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She would have had an expectation of privacy in her home in the evening where she could
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bathe.
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So David's looking around.
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He sees her.
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He's like, oh, she's gorgeous.
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Yeah.
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And from here on, I really don't understand how this story turns into Bathsheba being
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the bad person because let me tell you, David makes a series of horrifying decisions and
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Bathsheba is just the unfortunate bystander in these decisions.
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Because keep in mind at this time, she did not have a lot of rights.
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No.
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She had none, like none.
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We're talking Old Testament Bible.
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We're not even talking Jesus has come and said, hey, treat these women better or Paul
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has come and said, treat these women better.
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This is Old Testament Israel.
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She was property that was easily thrown away.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So David asks some of his people, find out who she is.
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So they ask around and they're like, oh, this is so-and-so's daughter.
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Now, she's referred to by her relationship to men.
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So so-and-so's daughter and also so-and-so's wife.
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So Uriah is her husband.
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First of all, horrible name.
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Uriah?
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Sounds like urethra.
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Also, you know how sometimes people like their surnames are named after what their occupations
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are?
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Do you think Bathsheba's name is Bathsheba because she loves to bathe?
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I thought you were going with Uriah on that one and it was going to be much worse.
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I'm glad that's where we went.
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His dad was a urologist.
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And they named his son Uriah.
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I don't think they had those back then.
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Well, they should have.
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So David finds out that this woman is married.
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Now, up until this point, like, yeah, he's a peeping Tom and he's being terrible.
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But at the very least, there's plausible deniability that maybe he didn't know she was married.
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Doesn't make it okay.
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Nope.
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Doesn't mean that she had ever consented in the first place.
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But I guess at least he didn't know she was married.
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Now there's no deniability.
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He knows she's married.
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He knows she is married to one of his people, one of his citizens.
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One of his soldiers.
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Yeah, one of his soldiers.
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So her husband is off to war in this war with the Ammonites.
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Fighting for him.
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Yeah.
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In a place he should have been fighting and he was not.
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Instead of respecting her, or at the very least respecting his soldier, he immediately
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has her brought to the palace.
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Keep in mind, she doesn't have a choice.
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Exactly.
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When this story is told, the millions of times that I've heard this preached, it's like,
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oh, and she seductively walked over to the palace because she knew he was staring at
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her.
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She didn't even bother to put on a towel.
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Like, no.
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She got a summons from the king.
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The king's people came and said, all right, you're coming to the palace.
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Now at this point, she probably had no idea why.
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For all she knows, David's about to tell her that her husband horrifically died.
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She has no idea what's going on.
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And all the Bible says, so this is chapter 11, verse 4, and it says, then David sent
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messengers to get her, to get her, not to ask her to come, to get her.
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She came to him and he slept with her.
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I think words are so powerful in that moment.
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It says he slept with her.
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It doesn't say they slept together.
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He took advantage of her.
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And then it says, then she went back home.
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So he wasn't in love with her.
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Again, not that that would make it okay, but this was just lust.
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He had a bunch of wives already.
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This was just him wanting to sleep with this girl.
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This was a power move.
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I can, so I'm going to.
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Now I'm not going to say the specific word here because algorithms don't like it, but
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he forced himself upon her.
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And we have examples of this in modern day.
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Let's say the president of the United States calls you into his office and says, you're
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going to sleep with me.
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Now this happened when I was a kid very publicly.
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And society absolutely blamed her.
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But the reality when we can look at it with a much more feminist and equality centered
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perspective is that when a man of power, of extreme power, says to you, you're going to
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do this, the implication is or else.
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I actually watched a TikTok, I think I sent it to you today, that was talking about that.
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It was saying how men in positions of power, we excuse for their terrible choices and their
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misbehaviors over and over again to keep their power.
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So then it's much easier to find a way to blame that woman.
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Was her skirt too short?
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Did she look at him a certain way?
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Did she walk the wrong way home?
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Time and time again, we are victim blaming.
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And then people get upset that we have a term for it called victim blaming.
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Well, you look at this and the focus is always on she was bathing, she was naked.
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How dare she want to wash herself?
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In her own home.
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In her own.
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How about we look out there and say, you're never allowed to have a bubble bath again.
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It's sinful.
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I'm looking at you, mom.
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It's just when you really break the story down like that, like making her into a real
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person, I sincerely don't understand how she's ever been blamed in this story.
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So it continues on and the next part of the story is it talks about her being on her period.
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So just a nice little trigger warning for you in case you haven't caught on that we
23:16
talk about periods yet.
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So she in the Jewish culture of this time, women were considered unclean during their
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periods.
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And so that would have been they gave them like about five days of uncleanness, but then
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also afterwards, there were seven additional days where they were considered unclean.
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Now during this time, they couldn't have sex and they couldn't really like touch their
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husbands at all.
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I'm pretty sure that this is still the case today.
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I think Orthodox Jews in particular do still practice this.
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And you know, it sounds terrible, but maybe for women that don't have a lot of rights,
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this was a reprieve.
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You know, so that's a little bit of an offshoot, but yeah, but maybe part of their culture
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at the time, right?
24:04
This was how they were functioning.
24:07
And so there's arguments as to whether this bath she was taking was her like ritual cleansing,
24:12
which they would have done at the end of the seven days, or if this was just a normal bath
24:16
and she was still in her unclean phase.
24:19
And if she was still in her unclean phase, then that would have been an additional sin
24:23
on David because that would have meant now he was considered unclean as well.
24:30
So this is just a little slight offshoot, but the different versions that I read kind
24:35
of argued a little bit on that, on where she was in her cycle.
24:40
Like what a weird thing to argue about.
24:43
Was she on day two or day eight?
24:44
We don't know.
24:45
Oh, day eight.
24:46
That's a rough time.
24:51
So Bathsheba goes back home, right?
24:55
David probably forgets that she exists.
24:57
I forgot that you existed.
25:00
Can't think any more of it.
25:02
She's litigious.
25:03
That's a fun name.
25:05
Litigious?
25:06
Can you imagine a child with that name?
25:08
They would cry all the time.
25:09
How would they spell that?
25:10
They wouldn't.
25:11
They wouldn't have room on the Scantron.
25:16
So Bathsheba goes home.
25:18
David does not send for her again.
25:20
Okay.
25:21
No.
25:22
All it says is-
25:23
Because he took what he wanted.
25:24
Exactly.
25:25
Now the mysteriousness is gone.
25:28
So she gets pregnant.
25:32
As women often do.
25:34
And so she sends word back to the castle.
25:37
The palace, the- I don't know.
25:39
Where are David's living?
25:40
The castle.
25:42
And says, hey, I'm pregnant.
25:43
Now based on timelines and the fact that they didn't have pregnancy tests at the time, you're
25:52
talking probably three weeks in between this.
25:55
Now the verses, it's just verse four and five.
25:58
She went back home.
26:00
She conceived and sent word to David saying, I'm pregnant.
26:02
But you have to think there's about a three week period in the middle here.
26:05
At least.
26:06
Right.
26:07
Because she would have wanted to be sure.
26:09
She would have wanted to wait.
26:10
So maybe even a month before she says like, hey, we have a problem and you've left me
26:16
here with the problem and I don't know what to do now.
26:20
And my husband is nowhere around.
26:22
Yeah.
26:23
So she can't even, not that this is something you'd want to do anyway, but she can't even
26:28
try and pass it off as like, no, this was my husband's child.
26:31
He's gone.
26:32
He's been gone.
26:33
We don't know for how long, but long enough that this isn't his kid.
26:37
Yeah.
26:38
So David panics because, oh, hey, somebody's going to find out that King David is screwing
26:46
around.
26:47
Ah.
26:48
So the first thing that he does now, again, making conscious bad choices.
26:54
We're not just talking about heat of the moment.
26:57
Oh no, I slipped and did something bad.
27:00
Not that that makes it okay, but that's not what we're talking about.
27:03
We're talking about conscious choices, premeditated.
27:07
Second degree.
27:08
Yeah.
27:09
Even in American law, premeditated murder, way worse than impulse murder.
27:15
Right.
27:16
Both bad.
27:17
People die, but it's worse.
27:19
Yeah.
27:20
So David sends word to the leader of his army, whose name is Joab, and he says, send me Uriah.
27:27
I don't think he says why.
27:30
Uriah was not of a status that he would have normally been called by the king, but David
27:36
is like, send that dude.
27:38
I need to have a chat.
27:40
So they send him.
27:41
Now I don't know how long this takes, but they're walking places.
27:45
Okay.
27:46
Right.
27:47
It's not like he can hop on a Spirit airline.
27:49
It'll take a while.
27:50
Yeah.
27:51
So now Bathsheba is, I mean, potentially two months pregnant.
27:55
Yeah.
27:56
I don't know how long it took.
27:57
Where's your athro?
27:58
We don't know.
27:59
I don't know how long it took for him to get back, but it probably took a bit for him to
28:03
get back to David.
28:05
So he gets there and David's like, how's the war going?
28:10
Hey buddy, long time no see.
28:13
Love ya.
28:15
And so Uriah's probably confused.
28:18
Why are you asking me?
28:20
Why am I here?
28:22
There's no reason for me in particular to be here, but he doesn't question it because
28:26
this is his king.
28:27
Right.
28:28
This is his God ordained king.
28:30
He is supposed to listen.
28:32
So he does.
28:33
So David says, go home, wash your feet, have a good meal, and then you'll go back tomorrow.
28:42
You'll go back to the war tomorrow.
28:43
So David actually sends him with a bunch of meat and whatever for like a good meal for
28:47
the night.
28:48
He's trying to really trying to get him to sleep with his wife.
28:50
Maybe some oysters, some champagne.
28:53
Cute chocolate.
28:54
And he's like, but again, this says to me, David doesn't actually care about Bathsheba.
29:04
No, he's worried about covering up his mistake.
29:08
Right.
29:09
So Uriah doesn't go back home.
29:12
Instead, he sleeps at the gates of the palace with the rest of David's servants.
29:18
Now David calls him the next day and is like, what the crap, dude?
29:21
I told you to go home.
29:23
You're not home.
29:24
Go to the gate.
29:25
Get out.
29:26
And Uriah is like, well, all of my brothers, the soldiers are out there battling and I shouldn't
29:34
be here comfortable and enjoying myself while they're out there fighting and dying.
29:39
So I'm going to sleep here at your palace gates with your servants and then I'm going
29:43
to go back.
29:45
And David's like, well, come on, man.
29:48
That's not what I wanted you to do.
29:51
But he can't just straight up tell him.
29:53
I need you to go home and sleep with your wife.
29:55
Like, that's a little bit suspicious.
29:56
We're going to get flagged on this.
30:01
So David is like, OK, he's calculating in his head.
30:05
And again, there are many moments in this story where David could fess up, where he
30:11
could say, I messed up.
30:14
He's the king.
30:15
There's not going to be a lot of consequences for him.
30:18
He could easily do that.
30:20
He chooses not to.
30:21
So what he does instead is he says, all right, why don't you have dinner with me one more
30:28
time?
30:29
We'll eat, we'll drink.
30:30
It'll be great.
30:31
You'll go home tonight.
30:32
You'll go home.
30:33
Home.
30:34
And you're home, not mine.
30:35
And then you'll go back to work.
30:36
I'll walk you home if you want.
30:43
And so they do.
30:44
David gets him wasted.
30:46
OK.
30:47
What a good time.
30:51
And then Uriah, again, doesn't go home.
30:56
He sleeps at the gates of the palace.
30:59
So now what's David to do?
31:02
David's like, aw, shucks.
31:06
And again, another opportunity to say, hey, I messed up.
31:12
Let's fix this problem.
31:13
I want to sit you down for a second.
31:14
There's a reason why I called you.
31:17
It wasn't just because I thought you were a great time.
31:20
I in fact thought your name was Eurethra.
31:22
Also, I slept with your wife.
31:24
Oh, by the way.
31:26
And she's pregnant.
31:28
So now David apparently no longer cares what happens to Uriah.
31:34
Now they've had interactions now.
31:37
David knows him now, but he sends him back and he sends his people back with word to
31:43
Joab, who again is the leader of the army.
31:46
And David says, look, I want you to put Uriah at the worst part of the fighting.
31:54
I want you to put him as far ahead of everybody else as you can with the strongest part of
31:59
the other team around him.
32:02
And then I want you all to back off.
32:04
Leave him there.
32:06
Clearly we're murdering this man at this point.
32:09
But you can't question him because he's the king.
32:13
So Joab says, all right.
32:15
So they go up to the Ammonite city.
32:17
They get real close to the wall, which you're not supposed to do.
32:22
Are the peas throwing slushies?
32:24
The peas are throwing slushies.
32:26
I think that's a different veggie tails.
32:31
And the walls of Jericho.
32:34
And so they get up really close and they put Uriah right where the worst or the I guess
32:40
I guess the best fighters from the other side are.
32:44
And then everybody else backs off.
32:48
So Uriah is killed along with other people.
32:51
Not just him.
32:52
Other people were sacrificed in this, I don't know, war David had against Uriah in particular.
33:00
And we don't know how many people.
33:03
We don't know what the casualties were.
33:05
So Joab sends word back to David and he's like, here's what happened in this battle.
33:11
And the servant tells David and David is like, what the crap are you guys doing?
33:14
That was a terrible idea.
33:15
You're not supposed to get close to the wall, whatever.
33:17
And then the servant's like, oh, by the way, Uriah died.
33:20
And after he says that, David's like, oh, well, you're good.
33:24
You know, war happens.
33:26
People die.
33:27
You guys did a really great job, it sounds like.
33:29
Doing your best.
33:30
All is well.
33:32
So Uriah is dead, right?
33:34
So now Bathsheba, we don't know how she got the news.
33:37
We don't know how far along she is at this point.
33:39
Exactly.
33:40
I mean, we're talking months in.
33:41
This is not a quick story.
33:42
It looks like a quick story in the Bible, but remember that there is a long timeline
33:47
here.
33:48
She's probably showing at this point.
33:50
What are her neighbors thinking?
33:52
Like what?
33:53
I mean, they're in robes, so it might not be super obvious yet, but it's been some time.
33:58
Think about, you know, when you're in middle school, high school and in your, what class
34:06
is it where you're like homemaking class or whatever.
34:10
And you have to.
34:11
It's called homemaking.
34:12
I think it is.
34:14
When they would send those girls out with pregnancy bellies on.
34:17
Yes.
34:18
I remember girls talking about like people just stared at me in the target, but think
34:23
about how much worse it is there.
34:25
Oh yeah.
34:26
Because you're, I mean, everybody knows her husband's even gone.
34:31
People are saying things to her.
34:32
People are isolating her and it's not her fault.
34:38
Right.
34:39
So she goes through a traditional period of mourning.
34:43
This is towards the end of chapter 11 and it doesn't really, we don't know how close
34:49
she was to her husband.
34:50
There's no indication of did they love each other?
34:53
Was this just an arranged marriage?
34:55
Marriage was very different back then.
34:56
So we have to take it in the context it's in.
34:58
Marriage was a partnership.
34:59
No, it wasn't.
35:00
A little tit for tat.
35:02
For sure it was not.
35:03
You'd think a lot.
35:04
I think I already quoted that.
35:07
Just gotta be on the bingo board somewhere.
35:09
So she goes through her traditional period of mourning.
35:14
Whatever that looks like for her, I'm not 100% sure.
35:16
We'll probably go into that in some more of our research as time goes on.
35:20
I don't think they were wearing black.
35:22
I don't think they were wearing black.
35:24
It's too hot.
35:25
It's very hot.
35:26
Pretty much the minute she's done mourning, David marries her.
35:31
Now I think this part gets used as this indication that, no, he really did love her.
35:38
Nah.
35:39
No.
35:40
He's saving face.
35:41
Again, the man's got a bunch of wives.
35:44
She doesn't matter to him necessarily anymore.
35:47
The Bible doesn't indicate that she matters to him anymore than any of these other wives.
35:52
It's just she's pregnant.
35:56
And if he doesn't marry her, she's going to be exiled in society.
36:02
His child is going to be exiled in society.
36:05
And plus also she has the ability to say, even though people might not believe her,
36:10
this kid is King David's.
36:13
So there's a lot of risk here for him, which is why he's covered his tracks over and over
36:20
and over.
36:21
And not in good ways.
36:23
No.
36:24
So then verse 27, so the last verse of chapter 11 says, after the time of mourning was over,
36:31
David had brought her to his house and she became his wife and bore him a son.
36:35
So she had the baby.
36:36
Again, timeline.
36:37
So you're talking from start to finish nine and a half ish months.
36:43
This is a long story.
36:45
I feel like we glaze over that all the time.
36:49
This is nine months of David saying, screw you, God, I'm going to do what I feel like.
36:56
And I know that-
36:57
And we make excuse after excuse.
36:59
Right.
37:00
Later on, David is called a man after God's own heart.
37:03
And I think that, or maybe before this, I don't know, I think that we don't like to
37:07
blame David and say that he forced himself on her.
37:12
And again, I can't say the word, but you all know what I'm talking about.
37:16
And murdered people.
37:18
And he did a lot of really bad, bad, bad stuff.
37:21
And we don't like to say that because if he's a man after God's own heart, how do we reconcile
37:27
those two things?
37:28
And I think the only way that I can reconcile it is that God forgives even when I wouldn't.
37:35
I don't want him to be forgiven in this story.
37:38
This is a bad story.
37:40
This is the worst of the stories.
37:43
And I think it's used as an example as the worst of the stories because God can forgive
37:48
the worst of the people.
37:50
I don't love it.
37:51
I struggle with it a lot.
37:53
Well, it shows how powerful God's love is.
37:57
It's not of this world.
37:58
And I think when we make excuses for his behavior because of that, we make the story smaller.
38:06
God's forgiveness is big enough to forgive this absolutely horrific person because that's
38:11
what he is in this story.
38:13
Now later on, he repents and et cetera, et cetera.
38:17
But in this story, he is the worst of humanity.
38:22
He's a murderer.
38:25
Yes.
38:26
Murderer of multiple people.
38:27
Like he doesn't care about his people.
38:29
He has abandoned his people in war.
38:33
He has done what he feels like doing to pleasure himself.
38:35
Right.
38:36
He's in pursuit of only what pleases him, not his people.
38:40
So I think it's important to say all of that out loud and to recognize that that is what's
38:45
happening here.
38:47
Well I think in that story too, it makes sense because if he's a man after God's own heart,
38:55
we have to find some way to excuse his behavior and make it a little bit smaller in our heads.
39:02
So what's the easy thing to do?
39:04
Make her into a bad person.
39:06
Blame her.
39:07
Right.
39:08
But again, I read this story in four different versions and the reason that I did that is
39:12
because the ESV and the KJV tend to be a lot harder on women.
39:18
Especially the ESV was written with that intent.
39:23
And so I thought perhaps the reason that this gets preached the way that it does, perhaps
39:28
the reason that Bathsheba is always put out as like...
39:33
A put out?
39:34
Yeah.
39:35
As promiscuous or as in cahoots with David where she planned to kill off her husband
39:40
or as politically ambitious.
39:43
Or pregnant on purpose.
39:44
Exactly.
39:45
Maybe the reason for that is because that's how the ESV presents it or the KJV presents
39:49
it or something.
39:50
So I read it in all these versions and there were a couple of words that I'm like, yeah,
39:55
that does skew a little bit against her.
39:57
But for the most part, even those versions are saying the same thing.
40:03
They're all saying this was David's fault.
40:06
He's a moron.
40:07
Yeah.
40:08
But think about putting it into today's situation.
40:11
A young girl is showering in her house and a man of some kind of power happens to see
40:18
her through her windows, takes advantage of her.
40:23
She gets pregnant.
40:24
He murders her husband.
40:26
That wouldn't be a story that you're like, oh, but he's a good man.
40:30
That's not okay.
40:31
Right.
40:32
And it's important that we say none of this is okay.
40:36
It's important that we call that out, that we don't whitewash it and make it pretty.
40:41
Because here's what happens in the next chapter.
40:43
So chapter 12 is all about how this is David's fault.
40:47
So pastors out there who are blaming Bathsheba for this story, apparently you've skipped
40:52
chapter 12.
40:53
I would love to introduce you to it.
40:55
Oh, Alyssa, get on your soapbox.
40:58
So it says, now this is where Veggie Tales really comes in.
41:02
So Brie, jump in with rubber duckies anytime.
41:05
We're going to get copyrighted by Veggie Tales at some point for sure.
41:12
Copyright me for want want.
41:13
I feel like that's it.
41:15
So chapter 12, the Lord sent Nathan, who I believe is a prophet, to David.
41:21
Not your husband?
41:22
Not my husband.
41:23
He wasn't born in another life?
41:24
Not that I'm aware of.
41:25
Nathan?
41:26
You have something to share?
41:31
When he came to him, he said, there were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other
41:35
poor.
41:36
The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing except
41:40
one little yulam that he had bought.
41:43
He raised it and it grew up with him and his children.
41:45
It or it shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms.
41:49
It was like a daughter to him.
41:51
That's disgusting.
41:52
It's quite dramatic.
41:53
OK, he's just making a point.
41:55
Have you seen that TikTok of the guy that has a little dog and he eats out of the yogurt
42:00
and then the dog eats out of the yogurt and then he eats out of the yogurt and the dog
42:03
eats out of yogurt?
42:04
That's what I'm picturing.
42:07
All of the people listening just went, oh, yeah, it's nasty out there, people.
42:12
So then Forg says, now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from
42:17
taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him.
42:21
Instead, he took the yulam that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who
42:26
had come to him.
42:27
So Nathan is putting together a story here, right?
42:31
He's talking like Jesus.
42:32
Yeah, it's a parable.
42:34
And David doesn't quite catch on.
42:40
It takes like emotional IQ is not common.
42:44
No.
42:45
Out there, you know, it takes a lot to be introspective.
42:48
And we don't know how much time again was between these two stories.
42:52
Like how much time is between David marrying Bathsheba and she has her baby to now?
42:58
We don't know.
42:59
Was Nathan in town and he just walked across to the palace or was he, you know, a country
43:03
over and had to walk?
43:05
We don't know.
43:06
So it says that David was essentially furious at that man and told Nathan that that man
43:12
needed to die, to die, the rich man, because he had to pay for the lamb four times over
43:17
because how dare he take something that was someone else's when he had so much.
43:21
I have another song in my heart.
43:23
Okay, Bri, what's the song in your heart?
43:24
If I was a rich man.
43:26
You good? is it out of your heart now?
43:34
Yeah.
43:35
All right, good.
43:38
So then after David freaks out, you imagine him standing up from his throne and screaming
43:45
and whatever.
43:46
How dare he?
43:47
Nathan's like laughing over there.
43:48
He's like giggling, you know, whatever.
43:49
He's like, you idiot.
43:51
And Nathan said to David, I'm talking about you.
43:56
Stupid, stupid head.
43:59
You are the man in this story.
44:01
You have so many riches.
44:03
God gave you everything.
44:05
He gave you this palace.
44:06
You have all these wives.
44:07
You have all these kids.
44:09
You have everything you could possibly need.
44:12
You want for nothing.
44:13
And he says, and if that wasn't enough, God would have given you more.
44:19
So not only do you have everything, but if you had asked for more, if this wasn't enough
44:22
for you, God would have given it to you.
44:26
But instead you went and took something that was never yours to begin with.
44:33
You ripped apart a family.
44:36
You destroyed someone's life.
44:38
You destroyed people's life.
44:39
Her life, yes.
44:42
And David's like, well crap.
44:45
Well, I've been caught.
44:48
Probably this has been going on for a year at this point, would be my guess.
44:52
Like approximately a year, nine months to a year, right?
44:57
That this has been going on for him.
45:00
That he has been apparently not caring at all because we're not, he doesn't even notice
45:06
that the story's about him.
45:07
So he's not sitting there feeling guilt ridden.
45:10
No he's not staying up at night thinking about what he's done.
45:13
No.
45:14
He's moved on.
45:15
He's good.
45:16
Yeah, he's fine.
45:17
Nathan goes on to talk about how evil this behavior was.
45:22
He calls out all of David's actions.
45:25
He calls out the murder.
45:26
He calls out all of it, right?
45:29
Him forcing himself upon her.
45:30
All of the things.
45:32
Things that, again, he wouldn't have known other than that God told him.
45:38
Then he says, he tells David what's going to happen to him.
45:41
And he's basically like, you're screwed.
45:43
Out of your household are going to come the people that are going to take you down, blah,
45:48
blah, blah.
45:49
So David then repents.
45:52
He says, I sinned against the Lord.
45:53
I'm so sorry.
45:55
He falls on the ground.
45:57
And then Nathan says, God will take away your sin.
46:00
He'll forgive you of this.
46:03
But there are still consequences to your actions.
46:07
And this is where I struggle a lot with like Old Testament God and Old Testament stories.
46:12
Because what happens from here is the son that David and Bathsheba had dies.
46:21
Nathan says, your son is going to die.
46:23
And their son is pretty much immediately taken ill.
46:26
And seven days later, he passes away.
46:28
We don't know how old this kid is.
46:30
Is he just born?
46:32
Is he two?
46:33
Like, we really don't know.
46:34
And imagine just the shattering of your heart in that story.
46:38
And why does God choose this as a punishment for David?
46:44
I don't have an answer for that.
46:47
I think it's just another way that David took someone else's life.
46:53
Yeah.
46:54
He took away so much already.
46:58
And sin has consequences, unfortunately.
47:01
And this was the consequence.
47:03
And I hold in my soul because I can't deal with these stories very well, particularly
47:10
because I have young kids.
47:11
I struggle with them a lot.
47:13
The only way that I can handle these stories is to say, when that child passed away, he
47:21
was immediately in Jesus's arms.
47:25
God had him.
47:26
God loved him.
47:29
And he's up there right now.
47:32
And maybe that's fortunate.
47:37
We don't know what his life would have looked like.
47:39
But instead, he was always, always loved and cherished by Jesus in heaven.
47:45
I think it's so hard for us here on earth to understand those things.
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But God has such greater reasons and such a different supernatural love than we can
47:57
even comprehend.
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It's hard to wrap your mind around it.
48:01
It's a hard story.
48:02
And I think people really criticize Christianity for these stories because Old Testament God
48:09
is rough.
48:10
He's a little wrathful.
48:13
And the only way I can justify it is faith.
48:19
And that's hard to explain.
48:21
But I also fully understand why people struggle with this.
48:25
I struggle with this.
48:27
It's a hard story.
48:28
It's a hard story from every angle.
48:31
It's a bad story.
48:34
No one came out unscathed.
48:35
No.
48:36
But at the end of the day, it's easy to blame God in this scenario.
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But like you said, David was the one that caused all of this hurt and pain.
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It's easy to blame God for the hurt and pain in the world, but people are making choices.
48:51
Actions have consequences every time.
48:54
And you have to think, is this action worth the consequence?
48:57
With everything you do in life.
49:00
And that's true whether you believe in God or not.
49:05
As humans, our actions have consequences.
49:08
Whether there's a benevolent God out there or there's a spaghetti monster, all of your
49:13
actions have consequences.
49:15
Cool, I just got shot back to Scooby Doo or something.
49:21
So that's essentially the story of David and Bathsheba.
49:25
Your son passes away, the seven days between Nathan's prophecy and when he passes away,
49:33
David won't eat.
49:34
He's begging God to save his son.
49:38
And then once he passes away, David goes and it's as he tries to comfort Bathsheba, which
49:44
I mean, I don't think I want a lot of comforting from him.
49:49
Actually, I'd be like, if you don't get away from me right now, I'm going to, I can't say
49:56
it because I think we'll get flagged.
49:57
The rest of the story is still tough because verse, so this is chapter 12 verse 24 and
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second Samuel.
50:04
And it says, then David comforted his wife Bathsheba and he went to her and made love
50:08
to her.
50:09
Um, no.
50:11
So again, it's, it doesn't end good here.
50:15
Okay.
50:16
Like it's still rough even at the end.
50:18
This is a hard, hard story.
50:22
Now she gets pregnant again and they do have another son and that son is Solomon, who very
50:29
important story in the Bible, obviously.
50:31
And we won't go into it because wow, that would take a long time.
50:34
But at the end of it, yes, Bathsheba has another son.
50:40
Yes, they stay married.
50:44
It's just hard cause you, you're not there.
50:46
So you don't know.
50:47
Right.
50:48
So like for you out there, men and women, maybe ask the other person, is that how you
50:55
want to be comforted?
50:57
Or is this just for me?
50:59
And we can't, we don't know the words that were used.
51:04
We don't know the connection that they had.
51:06
We don't know who she was as a person.
51:11
But again, just like the woman at the well story, I hope that we can redeem her story
51:14
a little bit here because man, was she not the bad guy?
51:20
She wasn't the bad guy.
51:21
Well, she does become part of the lineage of Jesus.
51:26
So just like the woman at the well who gets blamed for sleeping around, which is the same
51:33
thing that she's getting blamed for.
51:35
It's the easiest thing to do to a woman, right?
51:38
Blame her for being seductive.
51:40
Just like Jesus never said to the woman at the well, go and sin no more or repent or
51:47
any of those things.
51:49
None of that is said to Bathsheba either.
51:51
Now Nathan, the prophet could have gone to her as well and said, hey, stop bathing on
51:58
your roof.
51:59
Like he could have, he didn't.
52:02
He went to David and said, you're the worst.
52:08
And so to blame her in this story is just short-sighted and sexist and a manipulation
52:18
of the Bible that doesn't just border on blasphemous.
52:22
It's like way into the blasphemous zone.
52:25
I also think, side note, how interesting it is that Jesus's story, how he came to this
52:32
world is not through perfection, not through perfect people, through mistakes and imperfect
52:39
people.
52:41
He came into this world.
52:42
Well, how incredible that this woman now, her story becomes that of Jesus's story.
52:50
She's woven into that.
52:53
Forgiveness and salvation.
52:55
Everything that was horrible about her life.
52:57
I mean, her life sucked.
53:01
Everything about that gets reversed and God gives her this incredible blessing.
53:09
And now we tell her story and we hear her story and we've destroyed her story as a church.
53:17
But I hope that you all who are listening can hear her story and now go out and tell
53:20
it in a very different way because she withstood all of this.
53:26
She survived.
53:28
She would have been hashtag me too in a big, big way and she survived it.
53:34
Her name is written down in the Bible and it's been passed down for generations and
53:39
generations and generations.
53:41
We're talking about her now.
53:43
And she was Jesus's great, great, great, great, great whatever grandma.
53:47
I mean, think of that.
53:48
Like think of how utterly incredible.
53:52
And she probably thought my life is going to amount to nothing.
53:57
Much like the woman at the well who was at the end.
54:00
She was at the end of her rope.
54:02
Bathsheba in this story is at the end.
54:05
She just can't anymore.
54:07
She's hit rock bottom and then she dug a hole and found a basement.
54:12
But she keeps going because that's what women do.
54:15
That's what we do.
54:18
That's what we live for.
54:22
Brie was about to sing another song if you didn't catch on to that.
54:25
Now unfortunately we did not reference Veggie Tales as much as I had hoped we would this
54:30
episode.
54:31
Well, we can make a couple posts about rubber ducks.
54:34
Oh good.
54:35
And if you listen you'll get it.
54:37
If you've seen Veggie Tales you might get it.
54:40
I feel like it's such an integral part of our childhood.
54:43
And I don't know if it was for everyone else, but if it wasn't, go back guys.
54:48
It's pretty solid.
54:49
There's always time to go back.
54:52
So next week we are going to talk about this story some more.
54:56
We're going to dive into some different analyses of it and we're going to have a chat with
55:02
our best friends, Marg, Beth, and others.
55:09
I've already started doing some of the research and I'm excited to do some more and I'm going
55:13
to make Brie do some of it also.
55:16
Gee I love research.
55:19
I've always said that.
55:20
She's always said that.
55:22
Alright Brie, pick a state we should call out for people to listen in.
55:25
Oh have we already done New Hampshire?
55:28
I don't think so.
55:30
I have a question for you out there.
55:32
I may have already said this, but quite frankly I black out all the time.
55:36
New Hampshire, are you a state?
55:40
I have never met anyone from New Hampshire.
55:43
I'm pretty sure it's like some government conspiracy.
55:48
Alright, people of New Hampshire.
55:50
I need you to listen.
55:52
I need you to listen to this podcast so I can tell you're real.
55:56
Now I gotta go in and see if we have anybody in New Hampshire.
55:59
Alright, well we'll see you all next week where we may be a little less sad about our
56:07
lack of Disneying.
56:08
I may be a little more rested, but I may have two glasses of wine next time.
56:13
We'll bring the whole bottle next time.
56:15
You should also bring a whole bottle.
56:17
I know this comes out at 10 o'clock in the morning, but like you can listen to it at
56:20
10 o'clock at night.
56:22
Or you can have a bottle of wine at 10 o'clock in the morning.
56:25
We've all heard of mimosas.
56:27
It's just day drinking, but made acceptable.
56:30
Alright, we'll see you all then.
56:33
I love you.
56:34
And good night.
56:35
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