Latest / Rosters to Rings Podcast / Quarterback Crisis, October Arms & the Fight Against Tanking

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Quarterback Crisis, October Arms & the Fight Against Tanking · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings. Alongside Chet West, I
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: am Thad Levine. Chet, we got an awesome show today.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: We are going to dive into the division series of
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. We're going to get to listener questions,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: something we have pledged to do the last few episodes
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: and haven't gotten to. But we're going to start off
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: with a conversation about the NFL and specifically how focused
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the league is on quarterbacks.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Thad, I went into looking at some of the injuries
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: that have happened so far this year. We've seen some
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: trades already. We've seen happening. The NFL really is a
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: quarterback's league. It's a quarterback-driven league. If you don't have
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: a quarterback, your team is probably going to suffer to
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: some degree or another. You really have to have that
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: elite defense, a lot of the Minnesota Vikings probably right now,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: and they're 4-0 record. But I started kind of leafing
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: through these facts, and I'm going to give you a
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: little rundown here of what we've seen so far this season.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: And I've even got a new one that just blipped
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: up on my fantasy radar here. Jackson Dart. Knee injury.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Diagnosed damage to his MCL, PCL, and meniscus. He's the
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: young stud quarterback for the Giants. I think people are
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: trying to still figure out how great he was going
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: to be. He ends up going out. Giants subsequently trade
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: for J.J. McCarthy. We'll get back to that. Jaden Daniels
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: dislocated his left elbow. This is the second time dislocating
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: that same elbow in less than a year. He is
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: doubtful through week five at least, so they'll lose him
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: for three, four weeks this season. Caleb Williams, hamstring. It
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: looked so severe that I didn't think we'd see him
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: walking again for the next year. I think that there
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: was something to that dramatization. I don't know, but it's
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: apparently he will probably be back for week five against
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: the Giants. Excuse me. He'll probably be back in another
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: week or so. for the bears. But in the meantime,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: you get case Keenum journeyman, uh, Baker Mayfield dislocated right thumb.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: He's going to probably, maybe he's ruled out through week five.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Maybe we see him week six, Lamar Jackson, ankle sprain. Um,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: you know, it's, it's not necessarily long-term, but he's out
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: till week six, Sam Darnold, and then Kyler Murray, uh,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Sam Darnold had a glute injury. Apparently he hurt his butt. Um,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: and Kyler Murray concussion, uh, We saw that happen in
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: the first couple plays of the very first game of
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: the season. And really, the Vikings offense just hasn't clicked
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: at all. How much of this could we attribute to
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: the fact that all of these guys except Sam Darnold
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: are running quarterbacks, right? I mean, you would agree with
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: that list, probably. Are these guys running around too much?
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you were your front office guy, would
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: you start to encourage your quarterback maybe to stay in
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: the pocket a little more?
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a great question, Chet, because– and then
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: one additional guy who got hurt and who knows if
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: he was going to start is Tua.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Tua, yeah.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Who was also hurt. And that makes eight of the
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: 32 teams. That's one quarter of the league that has
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: lost their quarterback. As you mentioned, the most important position
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: on the whole team. Eight of the 32 have already
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: had their quarterbacks out for at least one, if not
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: multiple games, as you delineated. And that really harms your
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: competitive life cycle. Yet it seems as if they are
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: drafting guys intentionally who are the two way threats, the
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: guys who are mobile, you know, they all work at
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson as kind of the prototypical quarterbacks.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Well, would you say you really need that? You kind
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: of need that in the modern game to beat some
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: of these teams. These defenses are getting faster. They're getting better.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: They're getting better at getting to the quarterback in the pocket.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, we almost kind of think our quarterback needs
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: to be mobile. Correct.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: And, Now, in somewhat contrast, as you mentioned, Sam Darnold,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: less mobile, wins a Super Bowl last year. And it
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: seems as if Joe Burrow every year is touted as
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: being an MVP candidate. And if he can stay healthy,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: perhaps he could take a team to the promised land.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: But it really seems as if we're in an era
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: right now where general managers of the NFL are really
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: optimizing for guys who can run and who can, you know,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: get out of the pocket. The pass rushers are so
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: dynamic athletically right now. The schemes are so complex that
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: if these guys are just sitting in the pocket, they're, they're,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: you know, lame ducks. And it feels as if, you know,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: you look at the clock to make passes, it's like
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: two seconds or less. They have to make these decisions
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: or they have to get on the move and they
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: have to move out of the pocket to sustain another
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: two seconds to be able to look downfield. And at
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: that point you have to make a call or you've
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: got to take off. And, For the guys who are immobile,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: it seems as if recently people are really trending towards
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: those double-threat quarterbacks. But to your point, a lot of
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: those guys are getting hurt, and they didn't actually show
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: up in the Super Bowl last year. As you saw
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: the attrition, Drake May, a running quarterback, Bo Nix, a
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: running quarterback. Bo Nix gets hurt in the playoffs that
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: dramatically impacted the Denver Broncos' playoff and Super Bowl odds.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: And then Drake May couldn't overcome the defenses that were
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: thrown at him in the Super Bowl. And lo and behold,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: Sam Darnold, the guy who was sitting under center, who
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: by and large ended up winning the Super Bowl for
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: the Seahawks.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: And you bring up the Bo Nix thing. I completely
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: forgot about that in the postseason last year. His injury
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: changed the entire trajectory of the postseason and just definitely
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: for the Broncos outcome. You mentioned Joe Burrow there. It's
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: worth my, Joe Burrow has got a back injury. He's
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: on the week five injury report right now. So he
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: seems to be one of those guys that's kind of,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: you know, can't get through a full season. Dylan Gabriel
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: for Cleveland's got a back injury. Tyson Badgett ended up
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: getting a concussion when he came in for Williams after
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Williams got injured. Marcus Mariota has got an MCL sprain now.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I believe Jaden Daniels is coming back this week or next.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: And I just saw Tyler Shug or Shug, however that's pronounced,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: however his name is really pronounced for the Saints. He
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: just popped up on my injury report as questionable, which
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: you never know. It's an injury report. I mean, these things,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I think they're trying to put more rules out around
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: these injury reports and kind of how defined they need
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: to be throughout the week. But it is, it's definitely,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: it's like a, what do we have? We have almost
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: 10 to 11 starting quarterbacks that are going to be
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: affected by injury at this point. And these teams really
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: don't have, you know, I was going to try and
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: play this game with you, Thad. I was going to
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: do this thing where we had like, imagine a baseball
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: season is 27 games. That's it. And you play every
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: six days and you have a starting pitcher. So the
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Brewers would have Mizorowski as their starting pitcher. And you
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: really don't have any others. Maybe you have one other
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: guy in case something happens to Mizorowski to fill in
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: similar to that of a football team and a quarterback.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: How would, How much would that damage your product over
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: a 27-game season if you went from like Mizorowski starting
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: every game to all of a sudden, okay, we have
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: to audible and Dustin May is going to be our
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: starter now. And Dustin May is not a shabby starter,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: but he's no Mizorowski, right? I mean, you look at
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: the Bears, Case Keenum and Tyson Badgent are not Williams.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: They're just not his equal. I don't know if I
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: could draw that correlation for baseball. It's quite the hypothetical, but...
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: You would have to plan around that to a degree.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it speaks to the fact that general
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: managers try to put together the deepest teams you possibly can.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Managers try to espouse this notion of the next man
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: up mentality. But the reality is, if we're all being honest,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: there's a big gap between certain levels of talent. And
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: that's why I think some of the backup quarterbacks in
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: the league are so coveted because they're actually not a
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: dramatic drop off from the starting quarterback. But when you
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: have such a dramatic drop-off, you start hearing language like, well,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: we just hope to keep our head above water until
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: our starting quarterback gets back. And we hope that the
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: division doesn't get away from us in between now and then.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: There's almost this concession that the whole trajectory of the
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: team transforms. I mean, Harbaugh ends up going and selects
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: the New York Giants as his next team to be
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: a head coach of. He had multiple options. He says
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: part of the major reason for doing that was the
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: chance to work with Jackson Dart. So Jackson Dart wasn't there,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: as you referenced it, If he had sustained the injury
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: in the offseason and was out for this whole year,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: I bet you John Harbaugh is probably coaching a different team.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, how much does it change
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: things at that point? He's got to completely change your offense.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the whole landscape of the NFL changes a
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: little bit. Now he's going somewhere else. That team maybe
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: is in a different state of competitiveness, but they've lost
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: their quarterback. Kudos to them. James Winston is doing the
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: best he can under center. But there's just kind of
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: this awareness that the season is somewhat lost. And even
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: if they were to make the playoffs, they can't achieve
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: their best. And I think the other thing to note here, Chet,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: is this is juxtaposed against the fact that the quarterback
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: has never been more protected by league rules than they
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: are today. And we're still sustaining the injuries we are.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's just how athletic, how fast,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: how powerful the defenses are. that despite the fact that
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: they're trying to protect the quarterbacks, these guys are vulnerable.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: And when they get tackled and when they get dragged
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: to the ground, especially when they're on the move, as
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: we saw with Lamar Jackson, someone rolls up on his
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: ankle or he rolls under his body and he sustains
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: an injury because he's trying to eke out that extra
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: yard on behalf of his team.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: You guys are playing mostly on grass in baseball. And
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: I started thinking about this today. I'm like, how much
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: of this is turf, that artificial turf that football games
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: are played on? I mean, they play in a different season.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: You've got to have dome stadiums for the most part,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: at least. And then, you know, you've got this QB
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: mobility thing keeps coming back to me. You see a
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: lot of these guys scampering around all over the place.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: And I just wonder if it are the defensive linemen
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: getting so good. They're so fast and so vicious that
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: they're able to just lay into these quarterbacks and crush them.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, you don't see the drop back quarterback that
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: often anymore. And quarterbacks, I don't know if this is
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: a perception thing when I'm watching on television, but I
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: think it's just because I've been watching so much Kyler
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Murray lately. Jackson Dart isn't a huge guy. Kyler Murray
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: is tiny. I watched him running around out there. I
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh, this guy, if somebody gets
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: to him, they're going to kill him. I think it
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: has a little more to do with the mobility and
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: they're running around. I don't want to point to offensive
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: line quality, but I've now watched three games in the
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: last couple of weeks where the pregame like read on
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: the offensive line from the announcer was, well, they're missing
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: two to three starting offensive linemen. That can't be good either.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's got to completely change things. Likewise. I've
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: watched the lions play with three, um, kind of what
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: I would call rotational level offensive linemen over the past year,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: year and a half. And it definitely creates a hole
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: for people to just fly right on through and unabated
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: to the quarterback. It's quite, uh, That too could be
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: an issue. Maybe there's other injuries happening around the quarterback
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: that are causing problems. Likewise, maybe it's not just the
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: quarterback injury for that matter, but I do feel like
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: we've got a quarterback injury issue and it waters down
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: the problem.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: I certainly am no expert here, but when I watch
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: NFL games and I see that everybody on the offensive
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: line is wearing knee braces on both legs and it's
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: not because they've had surgery, it's because they're carrying so
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: much weight and their joints can't actually support their weight.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I've got to.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Believe that means you're not the quickest you can be laterally.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: And for these defensive edge rushers who are so strong,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: so fast, and so explosive, are you at a little
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: bit of a disadvantage when you're trying to block them?
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: And then the other thought that comes up to mind,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: because you see some of these injuries where there's so
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: many big bodies around these quarterbacks. It's the defensive and
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: offensive line. Sometimes the injury is actually sustained when they
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: roll up into their own guy, when they get pushed
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: into their own guy, and there are just so many
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: bodies around them. that they have a tough time getting
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: out of the way.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: We can almost get creative with this and say, you know, bigger, faster,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: more injuries. What does that sound like to you? It's
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: kind of like pitching in baseball, throwing with a little
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: more velocity. We see more elbow injuries. It's kind of
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: like everybody needs to get bigger and faster. We start
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: seeing more injuries once we start trying to eclipse the
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: last speed or the last, you know, 40 time or
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: whatever it may have been. Folks, don't leave us. We'll
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: be right back on Rosters to Rings. Welcome back to
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Rosters to Rings. We want to go and start looking
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: at baseball, guys. We're going to look at the postseason here. Dad,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: I know you have some takes. You've been jet-setting all
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: over the country following your team around over the last week.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I know you have a couple of thoughts on what's
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: going on in our postseason. I know I do, too.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Some things have come to fruition that maybe we called
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: out a week ago in our episode. What are your
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: thoughts so far? What have you seen?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Well, Chad, I thought I thought I would get your
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: reaction to just it's a phenomenon we're seeing right now,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: which is how teams playoff caliber teams are setting up
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: their starting pitching to attack playoff series. The thing that
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: has really stood out to me, yes, the Los Angeles
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Dodgers famously have four number ones and they're rolling out
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: a starter every single night. The New York Yankees are
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: about three deep in starting pitching. But then you look
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: at a team like the Atlanta Braves. This is a
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: team that really ran away with the National League East.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: They track to high 90s wins this year, prohibitive force
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: in the playoffs. They've used two starters so far in
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: the playoffs. They have played now six games in Three
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: started by starters, two by Chris Sale, one by Tyler Malley.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: The other three games have all been started and done
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: by relief pitchers. So they are going with a two
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: starter set for the entirety of the playoffs by all accounts.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: The Chicago White Sox have been massively creative in terms
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: of going with openers. The Cleveland Guardians have had starters
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: start the first two games. Today, they had an opener
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: start in game three as we are recording here on
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Wednesday and The Milwaukee Brewers have had three starters. They
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: will have a fourth starter. But their third starter only
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: went three innings. And we'll see how long their fourth
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: starter goes. So I think we're seeing, we talked about
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: it last episode, about the legacy of guys like Justin
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Verlander and Max Scherzer and just the careers of those guys.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: But now we're seeing this show up on a much
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: shorter run, which is the playoffs, which is to say
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: teams that aspire to win in the World Series. Historically,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: you had to be three, four starting pitchers deep. Now
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: we're seeing teams that are really running out there with
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: two or at sometimes most case three starters who have
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: aspirations of playing in the World Series. Quite a shift
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: in the game as far as I can tell.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: So I think we kind of called this on the
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: whole kind of bullpen or starter by committee type approach
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: in the last episode. We talked about how some of
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: the teams were going to do this. Now refresh my memory.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: The Atlanta Braves, I believe it was in the division series.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Who did they roll out there in game one? I
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: feel like they went starter by committee in game one
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: of the series. They did. Like right off the bat.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And two.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: And two.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Games one and game two.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: It was no detriment to them.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: For sale doesn't come until game three.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, they end up winning walking away in
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: that series. And the Phillies, on the other hand, rolled out.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry. You're talking about the wild card series.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about the wild card series.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they went Chris Sale and then Tyler Malley, and
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: then they went bullpen game in game three with Chris Sale.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Coming back because they were closer. Then they did the
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: bullpen game in game three.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Is the division series against the Dodgers where they went
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: bullpen day, bullpen day, then Chris Sale?
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay. That's why I wanted to have this straight.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: So either way, a heavy diet of bullpen games so
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: far from the Braves. They dispatched the Phillies. The Phillies
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: didn't really do that. They tried to shoehorn a starter
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: in there on what was it? Two days rest, I believe,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: for the wild card. That did not work out well
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: for them. And they ended up losing in that bullpen
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: game when Atlanta threw a bullpen game out there. And
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I just wonder, I mean, I think we had Mr.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: O'Dowd on a few weeks ago and he made a
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: comment about this being a strategy teams should be looking into.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's got legs. I mean, if you can
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: do it right and you have the right personnel for it,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: I think a bullpen game could probably be almost as
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: effective as if not more so in some cases, than
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: rolling out like a fourth or a fifth starter from
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: your starting rotation. I mean, all things being equal on
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: rest and everything else. But does this affect the way
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: a team can prepare? Like you're throwing a bullpen game
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: out there. Is it harder for a team to prepare
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: for that bullpen game than just knowing this guy is
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: going to be the starter for five innings or whatever?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's harder for the opposing team to
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: prepare for that bullpen game because Keep in mind, the
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: stats show very clearly the second time through the lineup
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: favors the hitter. The third time through the lineup favors
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: the hitter even more. So in this case, you're only
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: seeing a pitcher one time. So if you have four
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: plate appearances in a game, you're likely to see at
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: least three, if not four different pitchers during that time.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: You never get to see patterns. You never get to
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: get familiarity or comfort zone in the box. So I
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: think we're seeing that that is a much more effective
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: way if you don't have like an elite top end
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: dominant starters. the challenges over the course of a series,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: the attrition of doing that over and over again. And
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: you have to have best laid plans where guys do
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: their part and they get the three to six to
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: nine outs that you request to them. If one guy
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: stumbles along the way, there is a domino effect there,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: which really damages the rest of the group. And then
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: what you see the manifestation of something like that is
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: for the, for the San Diego Padres last night, Michael
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: King ends up closing the game after he started game one,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: he closes game three, Chris sale, started game one in
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the wildcard series. He closed game three. Those are things
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: that you ideally don't want to do because we're so
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: attentive to load management throughout the course of the season
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: and the desire to. If you throw more than 50 pitches,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: you're down three days. If you throw a full start
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: of 75 or more pitches, you're down for four days.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Michael King threw 72 pitches, had one day off, and
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: then threw close to 50 pitches yesterday. That's not something
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: you want to do repeatedly, but it is something that
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: teams do consider doing in the playoffs. And I think
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: to your point, Chet, The numbers are bearing out that
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: the hitters are really at a disadvantage in the wildcard round.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: The hitters as a whole hit 235 in the division series.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: So far, they're hitting 184. They're striking out 25% of
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: the time. Every fourth at bat has been a strikeout.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: It has been in the division for offenses. Yes, yes.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: It is a small sample size, but nonetheless, that's the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: league's performance. And I could go through a few of
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: the teams. It's been staggering.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: In terms of is that, I mean, are we just
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: saying that we're getting to better pitching in the division series?
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: So that's why that numbers.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's better pitching chip, but it's also, we're
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: not giving you the multiple looks at the same picture.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: So you're seeing such like, so just WRC plus is
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: a stat, which is based upon the number 100, 100
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: means you are league average as a team. Anything below
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: that is below league average above that is above league average.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: The Dodgers have been the best offense so far. They're
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: at 93, which is to say they're 7% below average.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: The New York Yankees, through two games, are at a 6.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: That means they're 94% below average. Their team is hitting 086.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: So the pitching has just really had the upper hand
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: so far in the Division VI. Once again, we'll say
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: it a few times here. It's a small sample size,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: but that's all we have to work on so far.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: And why not have a little fun with numbers here,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: but it's been pretty dramatic in favor of the pitcher
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: so far in the division series.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with that. And I've, I've also
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: seen some things where we have a lot of close games,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: low scoring games. I mean, the division series has been
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: like one, how many one run games have we had here?
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Like three, two, two, you know, 2-1, I feel like
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: we've had, what, just counting through these, but one, two, three, four,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: five one-run games so far, six one-run games in this
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: division series so far, and many of them low scoring.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: We haven't seen a blowout yet. I mean, I think
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: the most runs have been scored is five, so the
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: pitching has been elite so far. I want to ask
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: you a question. We talked a little bit about this
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: in this previous episode. Do you think that the layoff
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: hurt the Guardians? Do you think they're starting kind of
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: slow because of that?
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: So, you know, Milwaukee also had the layoff. And I think,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about this in the last 26
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: series where the team with the layoff played the team
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: without the layoff. It's dead even. It's 13 and 13.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: And so I think the numbers suggest that, you know,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: the Russ versus Russ discussion is real. I think as
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: best we can, we try to simulate game speed and
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: game play when we're waiting to play that round. but
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: nothing compares to the actual game. And certainly nothing compares
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: to the energy, intensity, and enthusiasm in the crowd. So,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: you know, watching all three of the Milwaukee Brewers, San
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Diego Padres games, two in Milwaukee, one in San Diego,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: there's an electricity in these stadiums, which you cannot replicate.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And so I think I, you know, watching our team,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: I think the two starters got off to a little
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: bit of slower starts. And I had to attribute that
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: a little bit to the fact that they were out
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: of routine. So instead of pitching every fifth day. They're
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: now pitching on eight and nine days rest. And I
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: think that matters. I think that impacts some of these teams.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: And just to echo this point about how well the
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: pitching's doing, keep in mind, Chad, during the regular season,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: only one pitching staff, the New York Yankees, had a
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: better than 3.5 ERA. Every team in the division series,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: all eight teams are posting an ERA of 3.50 or
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: better so far, which is a pretty remarkable testament. And
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: so I think the pitching's been ahead of the hitting.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: But I also think the layoffs for the teams that
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: had them haven't necessarily been this huge benefit so far.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: The Dodgers started 1-1. They're now up 2-1. Cleveland is
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: fighting tooth and nail to get to a point where
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: they're 1-2 against Chicago. Milwaukee's 2-1, and Tampa is famously
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: 2-0 against the Yankees, but they're now having to go
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: to Yankee Stadium to play the next two games, which
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: is one of the most difficult places to win baseball
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: games on the road.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine the atmosphere there for a playoff game.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Well, they're going to have some desperate, desperate fans out
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: there who are going to be supporting their players until
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: they're not. Until they're not in return.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, Chad, another subplot of these playoffs, when
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: you look at it, is just the amount of pressure
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: the playoffs and the intensity puts on the defense. You know,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: looking at Milwaukee and the Yankees as two teams, these
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: are two teams that were solid to elite defenses over
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the course of the year. The Yankees have given up
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: six runs. Three of them are unearned. So If they
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: had not given up any errors, they would have given
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: up three runs in two games. Their offense is sputtered,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: but their defense has actually contributed to their losses as
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: much as anything. Similar with Milwaukee, 33% of the runs
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: they've given up were unearned. That's extremely out of character
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: for that team. So things happen in the playoffs and
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: we think of these guys as professional athletes. They're invincible.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: The reality is they suffer the same anxieties the rest
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: of us do. We've said this so many times on
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the show, but the humanitarian side of watching games at
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: this stage The stage is very big for these guys.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: So as much as the layoff, I think, hurt their routines,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: it also takes them a minute to recalibrate and get
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: back into playing in such intense environments. The regular season,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: the fans are into the games. It's nothing like the playoffs.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: If you go to a playoff game, it's more like
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: a concert. People are standing the whole time just yelling nonstop.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: If you were, as a front office guy here for
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: the Brewers, if you were going to go up against
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: the White Sox at this point, Let's just suppose things
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: shake out. We get to the World Series. They have
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: a very, they're gelling, I feel like, at the right time.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: They've got that kind of postseason mojo going right now.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: But also, like, we talked about the oddity of the pitching. Like,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: they have gone with some crazy pitching combinations so far
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: in this series. I mean, they had these five pitchers.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Was it in game one against the Guardians? Excuse me?
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a, I think Grant Taylor recorded a
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: four inning save. I mean, this is, I, I don't
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: think the rest of the staff pitched like an inning each.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: You want to talk about keeping a team off their
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: toes that has also had a layoff. That's that can't
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: be comfortable for the guardians to come into that. They haven't,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: I guess they haven't trailed at any point through the
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: 27 posting post-season inning so far, which is crazy to me.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, I thought, I didn't think the White Sox
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: were going to get it done. I really didn't. I
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: had picked against them. They entered as a sixth seed.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And I was pretty sure that the Cubs would be
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: the Chicago team advancing on. Boy, could I have not
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: been more wrong. I mean, I actually wonder, you talk
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: about the Cubs. I wonder if the Cubs could have
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: benefited from doing some sort of a kind of starter
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: by committee deal. Because they didn't have it. They got
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: crushed by the Padres.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: We touched on segment one about the importance of staying healthy.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I think talent obviously is the most important thing to winning,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: but followed closely by staying healthy and followed third by
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: good fortune. And the Chicago White Sox have a different
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: type of path to the playoffs than certainly the Cubs did.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: I think the San Diego Padres are one of the
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: best teams, one of the hottest teams in the game.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: They're extremely deep, a star-studded group. the side of the
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: bracket that the Chicago White Sox were on where they
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: had to beat Houston, which is a little bit, you know,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: a team that has crested a tremendous run as we
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: touched on in the last episode, but really they're, they're
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: cresting and they were a little beleaguered going into the playoffs.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Now they're playing Cleveland, which is a very good pitching staff,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: but not the most complete offensive team. But I think
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: one of the biggest strengths of the Chicago White Sox have,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: and the reason you don't want to face them is
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: they're ahead of schedule. This is a youthful exuberant team.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: I think, Will Venable, Derek Shulman, the hitting coach, Zach Bowe,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: their pitching coach, deserve a ton of credit for how
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: they've managed this roster. These guys don't know better. I
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: think my experience being around young guys in playoffs is
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: they go one of two ways. One, they're totally overwhelmed
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: and swallowed up by the moment, or they just think
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: it's another game and they're entitled to play in the
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: playoffs every year because they're doing it in their rookie
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: year and they're just going to go play with their
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: hair on fire. The White Sox are definitely doing that.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: One stat that is noteworthy to me about the White Sox, though,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: is in the course of a regular season, if you
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: look at a hitter who strikes out 30% or more,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: which only 11 hitters did this year, usually you don't
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: have any success. There are three teams as a whole
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: who are striking out 30% or more. The Cleveland Guardians
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: and Yankees, we touched on them. Their offense has been
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: really struggling in the playoffs, but so too are the
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: White Sox. They're 2-0 going into game three today where
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: they're striking out 30% or more. That's not normally leading
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: to success. But what is, Chet, is the guys you
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: hit on. The Grant Taylors, the Hagan Smiths, the Sean Burks.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: These guys are either starting games or they're coming in
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: late and pitching bulk. And I think what the Chicago
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: White Sox are showing the league is this is the
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: future of their starting rotation. Those three guys, I think,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: are going to anchor it down. Yes, Grant Taylor has
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: pitched out of the pen. Hagan Smith has pitched out
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: of the pen. My hunch is we're going to look
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: at it and look up next year and see, oh, yeah,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: they just gave us a teaser of what their future–
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: And the starting rotation is going to be look at,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: these are the guys who are pitching bulk in the playoffs.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: When the season's on the line, this is who Will
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Venable is going to.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: I would love to sit and say that my Tigers
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: popped early, too, a couple of seasons ago. But something
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: feels different about this White Sox team right now. They're
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: just really gelling in the postseason. And I have noticed,
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: and it was just in here, looking at some of
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the stats across the board, this is... usually we see
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: a little more offense. I feel like in the post seed,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: this seems like a very, very, even with all of
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the bullpen games and all the oddities and no, you know,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: we've had a couple of frontline starters show up. Scooble
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: showed up for the Dodgers. Yamamoto shows up for the Dodgers. Right.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: But across the board, I think sale had a decent outing.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: The other side of this though, is like, while we
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: haven't had the outside, you know, or Miseroski maybe while
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: we haven't had like just every night, a, Elite starter,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: we've had the bullpen game or the starter by committee,
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: and it's still been a low offense. I think baseball
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: is going in that direction. I think we are starting
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: to see the turning of the tide here. We've seen
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: it for a couple of years, right? Starters go five
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: innings now. You see a starter go four and a
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: third innings, and it's kind of like that's becoming a
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: little more the norm these days, especially if you are
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: not an ace. You'll go your four and a third,
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: four and two thirds, like you were saying earlier. You'll
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: get through the lineup one time. You get to see
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: every batter once. Maybe you get through. Maybe it takes
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: three innings to do that. You get a taste of
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: the lineup a second time. If you're struggling, you're usually
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: getting yanked out before you even get through that lineup
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: that second time, right? So these guys aren't even seeing
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: a lineup all the way through twice. And then you've
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: got relievers coming in. And I think we kind of
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: alluded to it in our NFL segment, starting quarterbacks and
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: quarterback of the league. And, you know, you got to
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: have a great starting quarterback compete in the NFL. You
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: got to have, now we're starting to almost say you
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: have to invest in a backup quarterback. Our team's going
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: to start looking at those middle relief guys, those two,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: three inning eaters that can get in there in the
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: middle of the game and eat some innings. after the
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: starter goes, or do you think we're just going to
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: start seeing like the one inning per guy, one and
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: a half inning per guy, or is there a strategy
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: there that I've conjured in my mind that could possibly happen?
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: So I think the strategy is sound Chet. I just
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: would add this wrinkle to it. I don't think we're
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: going to be doing that with the middle inning relievers.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I think we're going to be doing it with starters.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: So I think, okay, Teams, historically, you build a roster,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: you're starting rotations, five players, your bullpen's eight guys, that's
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: 13 pitchers. So historically, we would have five starters. You
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: probably have six or seven kind of one-inning relievers, and
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: then you've got what is called a long man who
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: can pitch multiple innings, usually when the team's up by
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: a lot or down by a lot.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: So you're like a failed starter, right, or something like that.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: It's like a guy that can eat the innings, but
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: you're not going to put him in a high level.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Save the rest of the bullpen.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: So I think what we're going to see is probably
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: a little bit of the one inning reliever go become
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: a little bit more extinct. And we're going to see
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: rather than having eight one inning relievers out there, we're
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: going to have four additional starters capable of pitching three, six, nine,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: or 12 outs in a clip. And so they're higher
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: quality than just the middle inning reliever. Maybe they aren't
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: quite the quantity of the normal starter, but that you're
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: just going to flood your bullpen with it. And I
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: think that's the strength of teams like Tampa. I think
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: it's the strength of teams like Milwaukee that are doing
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: that right now, where historically, when you built your roster,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: you'd have your five best starters in the big leagues.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: You'd have then your next three best starters at AAA
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: because you'd want them starting every fifth day in case
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: you needed them. What teams are doing, Milwaukee's on the
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: forefront of this, is they have those three starters in
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: the big leagues. And you just make sure you pitch
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: them three to four innings every third to fourth day.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: That stretches them out in case they needed to start
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: for you. They continue to pitch in competitive environments, but
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: they maintain that, what you talked about earlier, Chet, that
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: one time through the lineup. They keep doing that over
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: and over again. And if you can extend them in
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: periods during the regular season, but in the postseason, by
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: and large, you're really hunting those nine out pockets that
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you can just get these guys through and then roll
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: it over to the next guy. Is that a pitch? Yeah,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: go ahead.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Go ahead. Finish your thought.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say, you mentioned the concept
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: of a pitcher struggling. The managers are so attentive to this.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: They're not letting the guy struggle. You know, you throw,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: you walk one guy, you're coming out of the game.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: They don't wait till you then have been in first
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: and third. It's like just man on first and they
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: just go to the next guy.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: If you, if you're looking at those middle relievers though,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: that are going to go two, three innings now that
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: you're going to start searching for, right? You need guys
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: with a pitch mix there. So like you're saying, you
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: do kind of need like another starter. You can't have
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: a reliever. constantly coming out and playing those roles these
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: have to be starter quality players they're just instead of
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: pitching like you know in the next night they're going
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: to pitch that night behind your other starter right like
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: you're going to be having two starters in a game
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: or something along those lines i and i just see
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: i just see the pitch mix being the the hold
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: up there and that's why you're going to need a
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: true starter with a four or five pitch mix that
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: can get in there and kind of keep guys off
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: balance we saw mason miller the other night try to
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: go two innings I'm, I am not a huge proponent
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: of putting a closer out for two innings. That's not
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: my favorite thing to do. Even Mason Miller, you guys
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: got to him in game one. They threw him out
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: there for two innings of baseball. And by the middle
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: of the ninth, he was struggling to get guys out.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think the reason, well, it's, it's, it's
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: the two pitches and they're elite pitches. He's more than
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: capable of getting six to nine guys out. I think
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: a bigger issue sometimes for these closers is they're such
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: adrenaline junkies. You know, these are guys who come in,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: they have a video, the whole, you know, the night
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: games that all the lights are turned out.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: And then it's the best part of the game. Yeah.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: It's my favorite part. You're there in person, right?
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: And enter Sandman and plays things like that. And these
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: guys just get pumped up. It's a little bit of
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: a WWE entry type. And these guys, then they, they,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: they empty the tanks when they go out there, they're
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: throwing as hard as they can with as much passion
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and energy as possible. it's tough to then sit down
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and get back up and do it again. So I
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: think it's not quite that guys like Trevor McGill or
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Mason Miller don't have the stuff to get through two innings. They,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: they do. They're, they're really primarily.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't have alluded to the stuff per se. He did.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Mason Miller's not short on stuff. He probably get it.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: He probably get guys out with his fastball alone if
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: he had to, but you, you make a good point there.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: It's they're so exhausted. They kind of exert themselves on
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: every single pitch. So that's probably the big difference.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: That that's exactly the point. Chet is, It's a unique
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: breed that is able to psychologically manage that. But part
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: of the psychology is I'm going to go out there,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: leave it all out on the field, and then I'm
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: going to take a shower at night, win, lose, or draw,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: and be ready to go again tomorrow. The challenge is
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: when they then have to sit down in between innings.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Sometimes that's a long half inning. Maybe it's a short one.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: And then they have to spike that adrenaline back up.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Usually they have a tougher time in their second innings
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: of outings.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Well, that was a great postseason coverage we just gave
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: you guys there. Um, when we return, we're going to
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: do a listener question. We've avoided it for a couple
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: of weeks, but we've got one queued up. We'll be
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: right back on rosters to rings.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to rosters to rings. We are now joined
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: by producer Jason with our time under segment of listener questions. Jason,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: what do you have for us this week?
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: Well, guys, uh, Tony from the great state of Montana
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: would like to talk about tanking. And he's just wondering, like,
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: are all of these new rules that you're starting to see,
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: especially like, I think we recently saw the NBA kind
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: of switch this up. You know, they want to, he
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: wants to know your thoughts on whether or not these
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: types of changes are actually going to be effective in
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: preventing teams from, say, not giving their 100% at the
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: end of the season.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: And I appreciate the question from Tony, because I think
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: this is something that is not only in all the fans' minds,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: but I think it's starting to become in the forefront
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: for owners and for the commissioners. So I think what
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Tony's referring to is the NBA has come up with
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: a lottery reform, just to go over some of the
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: nuts and bolts of it, because this is one of
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Chet's favorite things, so I want to turn it over
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: to him at some point. Relegation is part of this, Chet.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: So now, instead of having just 14 teams in the lottery,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: you have 16 teams. So the two teams that lose
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: the 7-8 play-in game will be part of the lottery.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Now what happens is the middle, I guess, seven teams,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the teams seeded four through 10, will have the highest
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: percent chance to land the number one pick.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: They all will.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Have an 8.1% chance to land it. The top three
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: teams or the three worst teams get relegated, Chet. One
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: of your favorite things down to equal the chances of
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: the 11th through 14th seeds. Those six teams will only
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: have a 5.4% chance. And then the 15 and 16
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: seed teams, the two teams that were the closest to
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: excelling that season will only have a 2.7% chance. So
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: there is a penalty, an actual penalty here for being
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: one of the three worst teams. How do you think
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: this will actually impact the way teams approach the season, Chet,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: and whether this will have the effect that Tony and
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: fans across the the NBA and other sports hope for,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: which is more parody and less tanking.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I think it's an extremely small step in the right direction,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: but I don't know if it's going to have quite
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: the effect they're hoping for. I think teams are going
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: to try just hard enough to not be one of
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: the bottom three and get into that four to 10
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: swath of teams there, which let's be honest, like it,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: it may just come down to chance at the end
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: of a season is that it Are we going to
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: start seeing teams like wrestle to not be in last?
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Like all of a sudden teams are going to start
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: trying as hard as they can in the final week
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: of the season. I don't know. I, I, this isn't
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: true relegation either, by the way, because true relegation would
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: come with some major financial penalties and would punish, punish
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: a team for losing and being awful. And I just don't,
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: you know, there's this big question. How do you create
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: parody without rewarding losing? That's kind of the question at
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: hand here. And I think in some way, the NBA
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: is kind of like this. It's kind of ground zero
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: for this because one transformational player can change a franchise.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: One number one overall pick, one Victor Wembenyama can take
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: a Spurs team from being at the bottom and bounce
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: them all the way back up to the top within
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: one and a half seasons, say. So, or even one season.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: So it's, I think the NBA kind of, it's under
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: the microscope here on this one a little bit. I
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: just don't know that this, what are they calling it?
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: The 3-2-1 lottery or something like that now? It's like
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: they're calling, they've got a couple terms for this. But
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: I would really like to see teams that tank or
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: that just don't look like they're trying at all to
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: get some sort of financial penalty. I want to see
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: them take it. in the pocketbook because we know that's
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: what all these owners and these teams are going to
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: look at the most. That's what's going to motivate them
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: the most to be better. I do appreciate the fact
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: that it's kind of like a philosophical shift from helping
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: the worst team to helping struggling teams instead of the
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: worst team. But I just don't know if we're going
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: to get the response we want from this or not.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: We have to see it play out.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: I think we have to look a little bit in
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: recent time. The NBA has gone to great lengths to
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: try to dissuade tanking and to promote parity. And it
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: clearly hasn't worked as much as they'd like because they're
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: still implementing new things. I mean, keep in mind, Chet,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: there are 20 of the 30 teams make the playoffs
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: at this point. That's two thirds of the league make
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: the playoffs. that was designed to further incent teams to
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: be competitive because you, if you get in the playoffs,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: the proverbial, anything can happen. I think what they're finding
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: is that's actually not true.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: You know, the, I mean, like you see the 10th
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: and 11th team are trading guys away mid season. Like
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: they're on the.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Car and they're finishing below 500 team.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And they're on the cusp of being in the playoffs,
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: but they're still trading away their star players, even though.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: So it's like, do they really even want to be the,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: in the playoffs? That's it's, I mean, they're taking that
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: attitude like, yeah, we'll get to the playoffs. We'll get,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: you know, absolutely run out in the first first round.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: It won't matter.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly what's happening here, Chad, is
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Major League Baseball and the NBA have tried to espouse
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: this notion of if you get in, anything could happen.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: But the results just aren't speaking to that. So now
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: they have to come up with other because we're smart.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: And then the NBA teams realize it's almost like a
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: death knell to finish in. 10th place and get eliminated
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: you don't get a good draft pick you also don't
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: get the revenues associated with advancing in the playoffs and
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: you're caught in between and the sad reality is the
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: best thing to do is to try to win a
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: championship the next best thing to do is try to
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: lose to get that victor wimba nyama transcendental player who
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: then can help you win the next championship but the
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: teams that get caught in between and are picking 14th
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: in the draft because they just missed the playoffs they're
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: just not getting the quality player to transform their franchise
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: and And so here's yet another thing that the NBA
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: is trying to do to try to incent teams to
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: try to not tank and to try to be competitive.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: But I think to your point too, Chet, I'm curious.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I don't follow the NBA close enough to say this definitively,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: but it seems like the last two or three teams
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: are just so far and beyond so much worse than
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: the other teams.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: So I wonder if there's even going.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: To be too much funny business about jockeying between two
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: and four. Because it seems like when you're only winning
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: 15 games a year, to try to get to 28
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: is not something you can accomplish in the last week
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: of the season.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Here's what I think would be a balancing act that
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: the NBA could possibly pull off. You give the first, second, third,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: fourth pick. They like to do this lottery system where
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: they increase the chances of some teams, decrease the chances
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: of the others of getting that first pick. If you
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: finish in the bottom five, you don't get a first pick. Sorry.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: You don't get the number one overall. You don't even
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: get a 2% chance of getting the number one overall pick.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: You're punished. You're falling down. The best you can do
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: is the sixth pick through the 10th. We'll give you
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: a lottery pick, but it's going to be sixth or 10th.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Take the team. What I'd love to see them do
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: is take the teams that make the playoffs but are
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: like the last four teams in. Give them the top
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: four picks. Reward them for getting themselves into the postseason.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: You don't need to give it to the top team.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying we give the number one pick to
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: the person who wins the championship. You want to see
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: some sort of parity. You want to see some evening
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: out of the field here. Give it to the teams
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: that finish at the bottom of the playoff group. I
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: think that would be at least a reward for saying, hey,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: you made it to the postseason. You probably didn't have
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: the personnel, but you gave it your all. Coaching, something
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: did it. Let's get you a better player so we
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: can get you back up there into that top echelon.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Well, Chet, I think it's a creative thought because I
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: think those are the teams that are literally the one
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: player away. So now all of a sudden those guys
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: in the draft are more motivated because they want to
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: go to those teams that are about to win rather
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: than going and languishing in a place that doesn't have
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: a winning culture or a bright future. So then it
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: really incents those teams to try to get to the
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: cusp of the playoffs. Other things that I've heard, we
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: discussed this in Major League Baseball meetings one time, which
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: was if you pick an arbitrary date in the season,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: and let's say it's right after the trading deadline, and
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: then have a sprint to the finish line. So the
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: bottom 10 teams are memorialized. The team that actually wins
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: the most games in the last two months gets the
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: first pick in the draft and so on and so forth.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I think the concern about that, and I don't know
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: how it would impact your rule that you're implementing here,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: is a notion that then what happens to the trade deadline?
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Because the trade deadline is somewhat predicated upon those teams
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: that are playing for next year to trade their best
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: players to replenish the teams that are trying to play
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: for this year. Well, if you have a sprint to
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: the finish line, you're going to retain those players because
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: you would rather have a higher draft pick than you
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: would necessarily the prospects that you could get in that trade.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: And then also it really mutes the trade deadline, which
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: is something I think the fans get energized by and
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: it kind of keeps baseball relevant for those last two
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: months of the season before you hit the playoff stretch.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I think finding the sweet spot is kind of what
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: the NFL does, but that also requires a salary cap too. So,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: you know, MLB does the draft lottery and revenue sharing,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: but no hard salary cap. So they've got some competitive
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: balance stuff they're trying to do there and create some
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: parity there. But they still don't have that salary cap.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: And we're seeing the ramifications of that in this postseason,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: regardless of who ends up going to the World Series.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: You know, the Dodgers are going out there far more
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: fit to compete across a series than many of the
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: other teams are. Many of the other teams, not all,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: but many. And now, you know, that'll all get screwed
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: up if the Brewers and Sox end up in the
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: World Series. And let's hope they do. I think that
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: would be incredible. But the NFL with the cap, I mean,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: you've got massive shared national revenue. You get a reverse
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: order draft for the bottom. So they're still given that
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: terrible team, the first pick. But if that terrible team
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: uses that first pick on a quarterback and the quarterback's
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: that good, they probably aren't going to be the terrible
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: team anymore, right? I mean, it's, But I do still
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: get tired of watching NFL teams get a first pick
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: and kind of blow it. They kind of spend it
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: on somebody that fits some niche need. It just doesn't
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: always seem to help that awful team as much. But
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: they're getting by on the cheap, maybe. I don't know.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: I just want to see teams punished for tanking, bottom line.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: Don't give them any pick. Don't give them anything. Take
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: them out of the top picks. Give it to the
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: teams that are trying to compete. It really comes down to...
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: should leagues primarily reward competent organizations over incompetent organizations? Probably
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: maybe that's a better way of putting it. Yeah.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: And Chet, I'm kind of warming up to your idea.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: And here's another reason why is if you're the number
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: projecting to be the number one pick in the NBA,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: the NFL, major league baseball, but you were aligning with
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: the team that is the most dysfunctional, why should you
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: be incumbent to spending the first period of your career
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: wallowing in in inadequacies with poor resources while others, I mean,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: in baseball circles, often people talk about like, what would
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Derek Jeter have been if he was drafted by a
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: team other than the Yankees? And I think he would
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: have been a hall of famer, but he may not
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: have been the captain, right? So some of it is like,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: it shouldn't be that fortune has to shine on you
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: as to who, which organization selects you based upon the
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: resources they have until the resources are all excellent. You
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: should have a little bit more agency as to where
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: you go and perhaps you your rule, which then says
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: only teams that have demonstrated a level of competitiveness, which
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: is at least on the cusp of being playoff worthy,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: are teams that should be destinations for some of these
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: premium athletes who otherwise really have no choice whatsoever in
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: where they land.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: And to play the other side of this, Thad, and
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: you can say it's wrong all day in competitive nature,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: but if I'm running a team that's mathematically eliminated, isn't
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: it actually my job to improve my draft position the
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: next season? If I'm out of it mathematically, what is
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: my incentive to win from there on out?
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: You're disincentive to win.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: It's my job to improve that draft position. That's the
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: only thing I can do to truly improve the team
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: from that moment on.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: It's sad to say it's malfeasance to hurt your draft
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: position at that point. You see guys who have actually
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: lost their job in some of these sports when They somehow,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: you know, in the NFL go on a two game
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: inexplicable winning streak at the end of the season and
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: cost themselves five spots in the draft when there were
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: three premium quarterbacks for argument's sake. So I think there's
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: a lot to be said for what you're talking about.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: We have to come up with more creative, better ways to,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: you know, it's the goal here is to enhance parity.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: We want to have every market believe they can win,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: but we also need to incent that and stop this
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: notion that tanking is actually the second best thing to
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: winning a championship.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Yep. How do you reward a team or how do
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: you help a team, a bad team, without rewarding a
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: bad team? I guess it's kind of for rewarding a
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: team for being bad. I don't know.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Or for being, as you referenced, or being poorly run.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Or just poorly run, yeah.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you end up at the end of the
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: standings based upon things you didn't control, such as a
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: rash of injuries you never could have endured, it's one thing.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: But if you're actually intending at this season's outset to
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: play as poorly as you possibly can to try to
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: get the top pick, you shouldn't get rewarded for that.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Tony, for that thought-provoking question.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, Tony, thank you. Tony from Montana.
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: I think that the interesting part is that you do
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: need to do something about tanking, but on the flip side,
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: there are teams that get sucked into this. I think
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: you should allow a team that doesn't make it. It doesn't,
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: doesn't have a chance to the larger or to the
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: top draft picks. I think they should be allowed to
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: spend more money to get a superstar on their team
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: because otherwise no one's ever going to go there, man,
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: make it financial, put, put, then you'll put the GM
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: in the front office on the hot seat. And like,
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: if the owner, if the owner overpays, so, you know,
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: All right. On to Crazy Town in Milwaukee. The Ricochet. Oh, boy.
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: Jesse from Madison, who's so happy that the roof was
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: closed that night, just wants to know, have you ever
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: seen anything like this before or any comparable types of things?
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: And just in general, he notes, it's just always kind
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: of funny when the umpires stand around and nobody's sure
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: what the rules are. I, you know, this seems to
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: be fascinating in this day and age of sports and
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: it happens in all, not just baseball, but we see it.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: In football and college football and everywhere. You know, so
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: I think this is more of a commentary guys, but
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: just some thoughts on that crazy play, because I don't
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: think we've seen anything like that in a long time.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: One of the more uncomfortable things for like the commissioner
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: to watch or some sort of high brass and baseball
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: to sit there and watch umpires look at each other
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: and not know what to do about a ruling. That's
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: your entire job, and it's got to be a weird
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: situation when it pops up because these guys usually are
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: on the ball. I wasn't at the game, obviously, and
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't watch it in real time. Can we rehash
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: what actually happened?
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's paint the picture that Jesse is referring to.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I was actually there, got a chance to watch the
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: game with my father and my son. It was a
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: bucket list moment for all three of us. We had
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: a wonderful time. We weren't sitting very close, but what
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: we learned happened here. It's the ninth inning. The Brewers
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: are up one run. Famously, they had come back from
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: a two-run deficit. They put themselves in a position to
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: win at home. Ty France steps to the plate with
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: a man on first base, and he hits an absolute
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: moonshot to left field. He hits it so high, the
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: roof is closed, that it actually hits one of the
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: cables that holds the roof in place. It changes the
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: trajectory and the flight of the ball, and Jackson Trurio,
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: the left fielder for the Milwaukee Brewers, famously, casually is
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: just standing underneath it and fields the ball, catches it.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: The umpire records an out. Immediately, Ty France, the batter,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: is gesturing to the roof, and he's pointing at something.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Nobody in the stands, except for the people who were
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: sitting in that section, really knew what was going on.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: The umpires huddle up, and they then– go talk to
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Craig Stammen, the manager of the San Diego Padres. They
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: huddle up a second time. They then determine that Craig
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Stammen had the ability to actually challenge the play to
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: determine whether the ball was fair or foul and explain
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: why in a second that is relevant. They then come
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: back online and say the ball was fair, the batter
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: is out. So the ground rule is this, is that
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: the wire, if the ball hits a wire or any
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: part of the roof and then is in play when
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: it hits it, the ball is still in play if
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: it then lands in play. If the part of the
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: roof or wire that is hit is actually out of
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: play in foul territory, the ball is immediately deemed foul.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: So the wire, because it was hanging over the fair
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: part of the field, and then the ball also landed
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: in fair territory, also known as in our left fielder's glove,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: the runner is out. So here's the crazy thing, fellas,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: is before the game, They go over all these rules
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: in the umpire's room. Matt Erickson, the third base coach
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: for the Milwaukee Brewers, attends this meeting. He's been here
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: for a long time. He says, hey, listen, they talk
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: about that very ground rule. And it had happened twice
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: ever in the history of now American family field. And
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: he said, you know, there's no chance that's going to
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: happen again. So much there's no chance. I bet it
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: happens tonight. And lo and behold, it does happen tonight.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: No.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: So not only did they go over this pregame, but
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: they kind of joked about it that wouldn't it be
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: wild if it actually happened in the game because it
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: hasn't happened in so long. It's destined to happen at
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: some point in the series. And lo and behold, Ty
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: France hits the ball about 180 feet in the air. Now,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: there are differing opinions. The San Diego Padres not only
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: thought that that ball would have been fair, but it
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: would have been a home run. Pat Murphy, the manager
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: of the Milwaukee Brewers, who, based upon where he stands
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: in the dugout, is really standing right on the third base.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Foul line. Said emphatically, oh, no, that was definitely a
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: foul ball. We had nothing to worry about. We'll never
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: know the truth of it other than the game ends
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: and the Milwaukee Brewers win game one against.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: The San Diego Padres. If it hits some sort of
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: obstruction in the roof, that piece of the roof has
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: to be in fair territory. And then it has to
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: come down in fair territory. So if it hits the
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: center of the roof and shoots off to the left
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: into foul, it's foul. If it hits, I don't know,
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: that cable that the netting runs along now down the
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: baselines that covers up the lower level, if you snap
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: hook one into that cable and it bounces back into play,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: it's still foul because the cable's foul to begin with. Okay.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: You know, Chet, actually, now that you said it, I
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: bet you what would have happened if it was hit
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: if it hit fair and then landed foul, it probably
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: would have been treated as a ground rule double. A
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: ground rule double?
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: So I maybe misspoke on that. If it hits fair
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: and then lands foul, ground rule double. If it hits fair,
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: lands fair, it's in play. If it hits foul, it's foul.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: And in this case, unfortunately for Ty France, they may
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: have taken two runs off the board because it looked
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: like a ball that was certainly going to have the
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: distance to go out of the ballpark. The question is
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: whether it was going to stay fair.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: I feel like this has probably happened at the Trop,
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: probably happened at the old Expo Stadium in Montreal at
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: one point. I think I even remember hearing a story
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: about it happening there to one degree or another. I
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: don't know. I'm going to ask. I'll get clarity on
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: the back half of that question. I've got some Little
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: League umpires out there I know pretty well. I can
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: ask them and see what they have to say about it.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: I'm sure they'll know the answer.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: You know, the second half of Jesse's question was about
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: have we seen anything like this? And I'd say Something
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: similar where there was a rule taken into question. The
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: year was, I think, 2015. The Texas Rangers were playing
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: in Canada, in Toronto, against the Blue Jays. A batter
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: was Shin-Chu Chu. Man on third base was Ruben Adador,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: I believe. Shin-Chu Chu was standing in the batter's box,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: takes a ball. He never changes his stance, so his
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: bat is upright. Russell Martin, the catcher, throws it back
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: to the pitcher, throws it off of his bat. The
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: ball ricochets into foul territory. Rugnett-Odor streaks home and scores.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: The umpires call it a dead ball. Send Rugnett-Odor back
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: to third base. And at that time, the manager of
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: the Texas Rangers says, hey, no, the rule is that
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: that ball's in play. They call New York. There's about
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: a 10-minute delay. And then they get back on the
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: loudspeaker and say, sure enough, That ball was in play.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: The run scores. There was pandemonium in the stadium.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: So it's like a wild throw back to the pitcher.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: Like you're basically.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Exactly right.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: You overthrew the pitcher into center field. Something we see
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: in U10 baseball all the time probably. Yep.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Fair game. And the crowd in Canada was a little boisterous.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: Started throwing some Molson Goldens on the field. No. And
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: some Looney's and Tooney's. And we had to take the whole.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Everyone had to evacuate the field. It was the first
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: of what turned out to be two such evacuations in
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: that game as it was pandemonium broke out after that
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: was ruled.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: That's fantastic. That's lovely.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's the beauty of professional sports, fellas, where
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: just when you think you've seen it all, you can
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: go to a game and see something entirely different.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: You know, we never used to have roofs on stadiums,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: for crying out loud.
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: We saw this a few times in the NFL so far, right?
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: The cable with the field goal kicks and the kickoffs.
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: You know what I mean? And whether or not that
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: was the– I don't remember, but was the ball Randy
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: Johnson threw when he hit the bird? Was that a
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: ball or a strike? Do any of us remember? I'm
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: not sure how.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: That one was ruled. I don't remember that.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: You know who definitely doesn't remember it is the pigeon
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: or the dove. That was a– A hellacious turn of events. Well,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us this Thursday and
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: every Thursday. Please join us next week on Rosters to Rings.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Please join me, host Thad Levine, and other general managers
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: every week for Rosters to Rings on Apple, Spotify, or
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.