Latest / Wake Up with Miya / Episode 205. Kurt Cobain’s Death, Led Zeppelin & Rock’s Darkest Mysteries | Richard Syrett

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Episode 205. Kurt Cobain’s Death, Led Zeppelin & Rock’s Darkest Mysteries | Richard Syrett · Wake Up with Miya

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We'll note that just before Kurt Cobain died, coming back
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: to the lawyer, Rosemary Carroll, Rosemary indicated that Kurt had
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: changed his will, all of the money. And keep in mind,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain, at the time of his death, very wealthy, obviously.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: But here we are, more than 30 years later, and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: imagine the royalties now. Whenever you see these top lists,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: top five lists or top ten lists of dead celebrities,
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the top earners among dead celebrities, like, for example, Michael
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Jackson or, I don't know, maybe Whitney Houston or Elvis Presley,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain is consistently at or near the top. I mean,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: we are talking about, in terms of royalty revenue, probably
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: billions of dollars. So he was ready to change the will,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and he had a prenup agreement with Courtney, but based on,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I believe, Washington state law, she would have ended up
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: with a lion's share of that money. He had directed
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Rosemary Carroll to draft a will in which that money
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: would have gone to his daughter, Frances Bean, not Courtney Love. However,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: he did not sign it, and he did not live
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: long enough to sign it.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Richard Serrett, broadcaster, author,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: and host of Strange Planet. In today's conversation, we discuss
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: his new book, Tales from Rock and Roll Twilight Zone,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: and explore some of rock music's most enduring mysteries. We
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: dive into the death of Kurt Cobain, Elvis Presley, Robert Johnson,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: and the influence of Aleister Crowley on Led Zeppelin, and
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: the legends, conspiracies, and paranormal connections surrounding some of music's
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: biggest names. Before we get started, if you're enjoying these conversations,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: please subscribe, hit that notification bell and leave a positive
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: review on Apple podcast. And please share this episode with
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: someone who you think would enjoy it. And if you'd
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: like even more content, including extended and deeper conversations, and
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: even some bonus episodes you won't find on YouTube, be
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: sure to check out the plus side on Patreon and
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: YouTube membership. Now, without further ado, here's my conversation with
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Richard Serrett. Enjoy the show. Richard, aloha and welcome to
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: the show. It's truly an honor to have you here.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I've been a huge fan of yours for years. I
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: think I count it today is about 10 years. So
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I first discovered you when you were hosting Coast to
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Coast AM. And from there, I started listening to your
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Conspiracy Unlimited. So I've followed your work ever since, and
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to talk to you today about your new book,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Tales from the Rock and Roll Twilight Zone. And, you know,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I remember when that was a podcast series. I absolutely
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: loved it. And now it's your book. So I'm super excited. Now,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: you've had an incredible career from guest hosting Coast to
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Coast and Strange Planet. Over the years, you've investigated everything
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: from paranormal, UFOs, to hidden histories and conspiracies. So for
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: those who may be meeting you for the first time,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: what first sparked your fascination with exploring these mysteries and
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: what inspired you to write Tales of the Rock and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Roll Twilight Zone?
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, Mia, thank you so much for
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: having me. It's a great pleasure to be with you. And, well,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: you've been there since early days. So thank you for
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: your faithful listenership, and I appreciate your kind words. Well,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I have worked my entire adult life in starting out
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: in terrestrial radio, both sides of the microphone. I started
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: out as a talk radio producer, but this was for
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: a news talk station, so it was all very sort
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: of what I call work-a-day reality. We would cover federal budgets,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: provincial budgets, strikes, you name it, the news, essentially. But
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: I always... had bigger questions that I was interested in.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: You know, why are we here? What happens after we die?
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Are we alone in the universe? And maybe the ultimate question,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: who is really running things down here on planet Earth?
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Who's in charge? So those questions stayed with me. And
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: then in 2000, I got my own show. So I
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: was behind the microphone and I started asking those questions.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: And that just kind of took over my professional career,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: this arena of hidden history and unexplained mysteries, UFOs, cryptids.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: That eventually led to a television show called The Conspiracy Show,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: which we produced five seasons, I think something like 64,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: 65 episodes. It was sold around the world. Then, as
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: you mentioned, guest hosting on Coast to Coast AM. It's
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: billed as the most listened-to late-night talk radio program in
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: the world, and I've been with the program since. as
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: a regular guest host since 2014. It's an amazing platform,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: millions of people listening. It's a, it's got a tremendous legacy.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I'm so honored to be part of it and fortunate. Um,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, the book tales from the rock
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: and roll twilight zone started as a podcast in 2018. Uh,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I produced 40 episodes and it was very sort of
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: documentary style, multiple experts, musicians, um, music journalists, researchers, um,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: road managers, and out of the 40, I picked 16 stories,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: and they've made their way into the book. It's not
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: just a transcription of the podcast. I've preserved all the
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: interviews and the quotes from the experts and the researchers
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I mentioned there in the book, but I sort of
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: beefed up the narration, gave it more of a literary
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: or maybe even a cinematic kind of style. So it
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: was a lot of work. I'm very proud of it.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: At the end of each chapter is a QR code,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: and you can scan that and then go back and
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: listen to the episode of the old podcast that inspired
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: the chapter.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: That's amazing. You know, and you talked about terrestrial radio.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: I used to listen to Coast to Coast driving home
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: late at night, and some of those stories generally would
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: scare me. but I couldn't turn it off. It was
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: something about that late night radio that made these or
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: those conversations so captivating. And you were part of that.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: So that was amazing.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Before we get into some of my favorite chapters, tell
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: us a little bit more about the book. What can
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: readers expect when they pick up Tales from the Rock
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: and Roll Twilight Zone?
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting. After doing about, I don't know, two
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: or three dozen radio and podcast interviews and television. Most
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: hosts are sort of captivated, I guess, by section three
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: of the book, which has to do with unexplained deaths.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Brian Jones, founder of the Rolling Stones. Jimi Hendrix, of course,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: part of the 27 Club. Elvis Presley wasn't 27, but
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: he died, I think, under mysterious circumstances. And then Kurt Cobain,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: And they focus on those, but the book is more
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: than just unexplained deaths. It also touches on the paranormal,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: the occult, the occult influences, the influences of perhaps intelligence organizations.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: In fact, the first section of the book is dedicated
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: to the Beatles. It's called The Beatles' Enigma. Chapter one
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: is questioning whether Beatlemania, when it washed ashore in North
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: America in 1964, most notably on the stage of the
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Ed Sullivan Show on February 9th, where it was seen
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: by 73 million Americans. Think about that, Mia. That's one
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: in three Americans at the time watching the Beatles perform.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: So whether this whole phenomenon, cultural phenomenon, was in fact organic,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: or as my experts in the chapter, and I subscribe
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: to this as well, whether it was engineered. In other words,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the Beatles weren't a band. They were software. And they
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: were weaponized and brought to um brought to north america
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: um in an attempt to subvert american youth culture just
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: three months after the jfk assassination of course they were
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: traumatized they were vulnerable which is kind of classic mk
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: ultra programming once the the patient if you will or
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: the victim is is traumatized and vulnerable then they are
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: more susceptible to uh programming um But this wasn't the
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: programming of one individual. This was mass behavioral modification.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: I spoke to a gentleman, Matt Sergio, that talked about that.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you had him on your podcast
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: or not, but if not, you should.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Okay. He talks about Laurel Canyon, Beatles, and the hidden
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: side of that counterculture of that time period. Yeah. Richard,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: one of my favorite stories from both the podcast series
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: and now the book is your chapter on Kurt Cobain.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And for those who may not be familiar with that case,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: can you walk us through why you believe there are
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: still so many unanswered questions surrounding his death?
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: Well, the front man from Nirvana, who was branded as
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: sort of the voice of a generation, and spoiler alert,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: he absolutely hated that– moniker, that branding, which probably led
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: him to a decision he wanted to back away not
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: only from Nirvana, but from the music industry for a while.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: And that sentiment was sort of, I think, mistaken as
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: a suicide note, but we'll get back to that in
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: a moment. So on April the 5th, or sorry, April
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: the 8th, 1994, an electrician visiting his home, possibly wiring
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: it for security cameras, was went up to the room
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: above the garage, which had been converted into a greenhouse,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: looked through the window and saw the body of Kurt
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: Cobain on the floor from an apparent suicide, a gunshot,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: a self-inflicted gunshot wound, without getting too gruesome, sticking the
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: business end of a shotgun into his mouth, what they
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: call an inoral injury, and... You can imagine the catastrophic
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: result of that. So the official time of death is
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: kind of where we begin this mystery because coroners or
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the medical examiner, and there's some mystery surrounding this individual,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: which we'll get back to as well, I hope, the
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: time of death was listed as April the 5th. Not
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: a particular hour on April 5th, just the date of
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: April the 5th, but with a caveat. The time of
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: death could have been 24 hours either way. It could
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: have been April the 4th, or it could have been
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: April the 6th, keeping in mind his body was discovered
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: on April the 8th. That's always struck me, not just me,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: but a number of researchers who are quoted in this book.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: It's very odd. You know, I'm not a, obviously, I
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: don't have a medical degree, but I watched enough police procedurals.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: In fact, it's pretty much all I watched with my
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: lovely bride, the mighty Aphrodite here. you know, murder mysteries
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: and police procedurals on TV. Um, they, they're pretty specific
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: and I'm told that's fairly accurate with, with the, uh,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: time of death within a few hours either way, but
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: a few days, like a 24 hours before or 24
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: hours after, that's very odd. Um, Kurt Cobain had, um,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: checked himself into a drug rehab clinic down in, um,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Marina Del Rey in the Los Angeles area, California, around
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: March 31st. He did this after an intervention was staged
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: at his home, in Courtney Love's home in Seattle. In
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: attendance were Chris Novoselic, the bass player, Courtney, some other,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: I guess, members of the inner circle, encouraging Kurt to
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: go into drug rehab. And upon checking himself into the
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: rehab center, he promptly turned on his heels after signing
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: the register, I guess, and checked himself out. And his
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: whereabouts between March 31st and the discovery of his body
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: on April the 8th are kind of a mystery, aside
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: from a chance encounter on the flight home with Duff McKagan,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: a member of Guns N' Roses. And during that flight,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: the two chatted cordially and Duff McKagan described Kurt's emotional
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: state as just joyful, really. As if maybe he'd made
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: a decision about backing away from the music industry. That's speculation, however.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: So again, going to the death scene, if you will,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of problems with this situation. First and foremost,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: the people that I talked to that saw the crime
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: photos talk about a lack of, I'm going to be
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: graphic here again, a lack of blood splatter and a
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: lack of brain splatter. You can imagine if you stick
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: a shotgun in your mouth and you pull the trigger,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the exit wound is going to be catastrophic and the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: contents of your skull are going to be all over
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the back wall. That was surprisingly not missing, but it
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: wasn't nearly as much blood or brain splatter as one
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: might expect. Now, you could make an argument, and critics
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: or skeptics have, that the skull cavity would absorb a
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: lot of that brain and blood from splattering all over
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: the place. So it's not unprecedented that you wouldn't see
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: the kind of mess that you might expect. However, well,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I'll just put that out there and let that float.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, did that happen in this case? Maybe, maybe not.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: What is very problematic, though, is, I don't know if
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: you're a hunter, Mia, or if you've ever held a
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: shotgun in your hand. It's a pretty cumbersome weapon. I have. Okay,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: so you know it's a pretty cumbersome weapon. So imagine now,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain was not a not an incredibly tall individual.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: He didn't have long, gangly limbs, arms like Abraham Lincoln,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: for example. So imagine turning that shotgun around, putting the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: business end, the barrel, into your mouth, and then while
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: holding the barrel with one hand, you've got to reach
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: down with the other hand and your finger, trying desperately
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: to reach that trigger. I mean, I couldn't do it.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: I couldn't reach. It wasn't a shot-off shotgun. Now, to
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: even further explain to complicate matters, to the end of
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: that shotgun barrel was what's known as a flash muzzler.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: And that's a piece of equipment that you screw into
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the end of the barrel. That adds an additional six
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: inches to the end of the barrel. So you might say, okay, well,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: maybe he used his big toe on either one of
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: his feet. Well, Kurt was found with both shoes on
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: his feet, tied on his feet. So that is a serious,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: a serious problem. Then we have, I'm not going to
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: use the H word. I'm talking about a drug. I'm
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: told that's a no-no on YouTube. So I'll call it Brown.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: He was supposedly a Brown user. Injected Brown. And we'll
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: come back to that too because there's some question about
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: to what extent he was addicted to Brown. Well, Brown...
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: metabolizes in the bloodstream is morphine. And according to the autopsy,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: he had something on the order of, I believe it
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: was two to three times the lethal amount of brown
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: or morphine in his blood. It would render most people
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: unconscious within seconds. And yet, we're led to believe that
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: he injected this, still managed to handle this weapon, but
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: more to the point, managed to have the dexterity, the
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: wherewithal to carefully put his drug paraphernalia kit away. Put the,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, the little stoppers on the end of
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the needles, put them back in their little paraphernalia kit,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: pack it away nice and neatly. It wasn't found anywhere.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Near the body.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: So that's very, very suspicious as well. So I don't
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: know if you want to jump in and pick up
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: on any of these points. I'd be happy to.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no. I believe there was also no fingerprints on
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: the gun.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I believe the terminology they used was no usable fingerprints.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: No, no usable.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I see. So what does that mean? Not sure. Now,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain had purchased a shotgun. I believe it was
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: this weapon. He did so with a friend because I
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: believe there may have been some previous... altercation with the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: law that would have prevented him from buying a weapon,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: but he wanted a shotgun, he told his friend, for protection.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: And some have said, well, of course, he would tell
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: his friend he wanted it for protection, not to take
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: his own life because his friend wouldn't have agreed to
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: buy the weapon. But there is some credibility to that
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: story because I mentioned the electrician earlier who came by
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: the house and discovered Kurt's body. He was there, according
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: to everything that I've read, to install security cameras. So
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: why would you be concerned about your security? Buy a
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: weapon to protect you and your family and your property.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Install security cameras if you were simply going to take
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: your own life.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And there is a note, and this note was
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: very suspicious as well.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, the supposed... suicide note, which was stabbed into a
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: flower pot into the soil with a red pen, discovered
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: also in the greenhouse. About 90% of the note, and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I'm just sort of, I haven't memorized it verbatim, but
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: essentially what it reads is sort of an apology to
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: his fans because he didn't feel like his heart and
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: soul had been into his performances of late, and he
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: talked about how he was not happy with the way
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: that the music industry was going, how he wasn't happy
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: with the way that he and the band had been branded.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: He'd also told friends that he was beginning to resent
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: even the people that were showing up at his concerts
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: because they weren't reflective of who he was or what
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: he wanted to communicate to his listeners, to his fans.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: and that 90% maybe 95% of the letter is in
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: his very distinctive Kurt Cobain handwriting style. It matches his
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: handwritten song lyrics. The little bit that I'm going to
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: say was tacked on to the end does not match.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, even to the uninitiated version to the naked eye,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: it's quite clear that it's very different, the handwriting style.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: And in that little 5%, the messaging is a little
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: more overt. I want to, you know, I'm sorry, Francis Bean,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: his beloved daughter, who was a toddler at the time.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm sorry, Courtney, his wife, of course, Courtney Love.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: That part did, in fact, sound like I can't take
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: it anymore. It's, you know, I'm sorry. You deserve better.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: You'll be better without me, that kind of thing. That's
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: the part that genuinely sounds like a suicide note, but
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: the handwriting style, which has been examined, not in a
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: court of law. We should point this out. And none
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: of the, anything that I'm going to say now has
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: been proven in court. They're only allegations. Some of the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: people that I'll mention, well, one in particular has denied
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: any wrongdoing. That's important. blessed you or I receive a
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: cease and desist order. So let me just put that
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: out there. So I believe as many as three forensic
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: handwriting analysts have concluded that the two parts of the
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: so-called suicide note do not match. Now, to add further
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: credence to this theory that someone else wrote the suicide
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: portion of the note Their lawyer, their attorney, Rosemary Carroll,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: their family lawyer, was in communication with a private investigator
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: by the name of Tom Grant. Tom Grant was hired
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: by Courtney Love, coincidentally, or paradoxically, I suppose I should say.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Tom Grant was hired by Courtney during the disappearance of
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Kurt from the rehab center in Marina del Rey, beginning
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: in March 31st. Again, his whereabouts were virtually unknown until
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: his body was found, except for that chance encounter on
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: a plane with Duff McKagan. But so she hired Tom Grant.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Please look for my husband. He's missing. I'm worried about him.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: The moment he got on the case, he started to
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: find certain things very suspicious. One was that Courtney herself
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: had kind of a convenient alibi. He thought about this
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: after the body was discovered, of course. during this time
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: when she reached out to Tom Grant to hire him,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: she herself had checked her, she checked herself into a
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: rehab center in, I believe it was in Bel Air, California.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: She wasn't staying. It was kind of an outpatient. She
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: was staying in a hotel and she went to this
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: rehab clinic in Beverly Hills or Bel Air. So he
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: thought that was kind of convenient that she had an alibi.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: But she, but Tom Grant, was later in communication with
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Rosemary Carroll, and he recorded these conversations with Courtney and
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Kurt's lawyer. In one of these recordings, Rosemary Carroll tells
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Tom Grant that she had discovered what she referred to
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: as practice sheets, practice sheets in Courtney's backpack. What are
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: practice sheets? Well, If you're trying to practice someone's handwriting style,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: you might have a sample of that individual's handwriting style
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: and then underneath you'll be trying to write the way
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: that that person writes. Make sure you have the L's right.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: How do they cross their T's and so forth? And
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: I'll let listeners conclude as to what that, draw their
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: own conclusions as to what that means. Why would she
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: be practicing Kurt Cobain's handwriting style Why does that last
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: part of the so-called suicide note not match the rest
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: of the other 95% of the note that he left behind?
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Those are just a couple of the suspicious or loose threads,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: let's say, that remain in this case.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but yet the mainstream media made this a very
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: cut-and-dry suicide case.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: They did. They did. They did. One of the themes, actually,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I think that runs through particularly Section 3, which includes
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: the Kurt Cobain chapter, it's called Killer Courts, Dark Secrets
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: of Rock's Fallen Stars. And that thread is Rush to Judgment. Now,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: why did they choose that course? Why did they rush
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: to judgment? Was it because of some undue, unseen influence
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: in the office of the medical examiner or in the
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: police department? I don't know. I can't say for sure.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: But what I can say is that I mentioned earlier
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the person who performed the autopsy on Kurt Cobain, who
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: was cremated shortly thereafter.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Conveniently.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, very conveniently. That individual, that doctor, who later, unfortunately,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: no longer with us. In 2002, he died in a
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: base-jumping accident in Switzerland, I believe. But sometime after Kurt's death,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: he went on the record and said that he had regrets, that,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: number one and foremost, he hadn't recused himself from the case.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Why would he feel the need to recuse himself? Well,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: because he admitted that he was on very friendly terms
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: with Courtney Love. Now, I can't say with 100% certainty
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: that they were intimate, but if you look at his
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: statements and if you listen to those very familiar with
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: this case, there is, I think, a strong suggestion that
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: the person who conducted the autopsy on Kurt Cobain was
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: intimate with the victim's wife.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Wow. Wow.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: How much of a role do you think Courtney Love
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: played in shaping the public's narrative after Kurt's death, regardless
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: of what someone believes and if she had any involvement
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: in what happened?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Well, she certainly wanted people to understand that Kurt had
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: a family history of depression and mental illness. That is true.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: He had, I believe it was a grandfather and a
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: great uncle who had both died. killed themselves or attempted
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: to kill themselves. In one instance, it was particularly gruesome.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: I believe it was either the great uncle or the
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: grandfather took his own life or attempted to take his
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: own life in front of his family, including his young children.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Horrible and tragic. And yes, there may be some genetic
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: links to depression. I don't know. I can't say that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: for sure. I'm not a medical doctor. But she took
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: pains to try and, I think, paint that narrative. And
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: more specifically, I believe it was in maybe March of
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: the same year, so just maybe a month before Kurt
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Cobain died, he was in Rome, in Rome, Italy. And
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Courtney discovered him unconscious, and he was rushed to the hospital.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: And it was... determined that he had overdosed on Rohypnol
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: and champagne. Courtney Love, after his death a month later,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: said that he had attempted to take his own life,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: that it was a suicide attempt. However, if you contrast
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that with the testimony of his physician in Rome at
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: the time, when he was admitted to hospital, Dr. Gallata,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I believe his name was, Dr. Gallata said he found
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: no indication that this was a deliberate suicide attempt once
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Kurt regained consciousness. And he was very confused and somewhat
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: forgetful about what happened, but his mood was very atypical
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: of someone who had tried to kill themselves. And he
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: believed that it was an accidental overdose and that Kurt
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: also had been suffering from some sort of an influenza
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: or some sort of viral infection as well at the time.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: So that conflicts obviously with Courtney. She said she believed
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: he had tried to take his own life because she
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: had admitted to him that she was considering having an affair.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: So again, I just see this pattern of Courtney Love
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: creating and reinforcing and amplifying this narrative that he was suicidal,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: that he had tried it before, that there was a
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: history of family, a history in the family of mental illness.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: So that's, you know, to answer your question, I think
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: that's how she helped shape the media narrative. And they
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: bought it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: And they did.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Anything on the daughter, where she's at today, what her
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: thoughts are on all this?
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard a lot from Frances Bean. I believe,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: as far as I know, she has a decent relationship
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: with her mother. but I haven't really followed up on
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Francis Bean. I will note that just before Kurt Cobain died,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: coming back to the lawyer, Rosemary Carroll, Rosemary indicated that
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Kurt had changed his will, all of the money. And
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: keep in mind, Kurt Cobain, at the time of his death,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: very wealthy, obviously, but here we are more than 30
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: years later, and imagine the royalties now. Kurt Cobain is...
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Whenever you see these top lists, top five lists or
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: top ten lists of dead celebrities, the top earners among
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: dead celebrities, you know, like, for example, Michael Jackson or,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe Whitney Houston or Elvis Presley, Kurt
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Cobain is consistently at or near the top. I mean,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: we are talking about, in terms of royalty revenue, probably
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: billions of dollars. So he was ready to change the will,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: and he had a prenup agreement with Courtney, but based on,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: I believe, Washington state law, she would have ended up
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: with a lion's share of that money. He had directed
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Rosemary Carroll to draft a will in which that money
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: would have gone to his daughter, Frances Bean, not Courtney Love. However,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: he did not sign it, and he did not live
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: long enough to sign it.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Wow. Another chapter that really caught my attention was the
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: one on Led Zeppelin. Most people have heard about the
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: so-called Led Zeppelin curse, but they don't know where the
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: story comes from. Can you walk us through that?
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: And for this, we have to go back to the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: 19th century, actually, over 100 years ago. And Alistair Crowley,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: who was, well, he described himself as the beast's and
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: the baddest man in the world. And I think he
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: referred to himself as the Beast 666. And I think
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of that was maybe not a lot of it.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe some of it was just self-aggrandizement and marketing, if
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: you can call it marketing, back in the 19th century.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: But he was a wealthy individual. I think he was
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: heir to the it might've been the Guinness, uh, beer, um, um, um,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: what am I, what's the word I'm looking for? The
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Guinness beer empire, if you will. Um, so, you know,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: he spent a lot of his time on holiday skiing
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: and he was a real adventurer and he was, uh,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: he also dabbled in the occult and he wrote many
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: volumes of books on it. Um, he created his own
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: occult order, um, and, At some point in maybe the
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: early 1900s, he purchased a property on the shores of
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Loch Ness in Scotland called Boleskine House. And he bought
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: it because it was incredibly isolated and he was looking
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: for a location to perform what is known as the
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Abramelene Operation. This is an occult or black magic ritual,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: if you will, in which you try and summon what
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: he would call sort of your ultimate guardian angel. Now,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I'm an Orthodox Christian, so through my faith filter, I
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: would call that a demon. He might not use that terminology,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: but I will. So he was trying to summon this
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: demon who would, you know, do his bidding. But the
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: process was long and arduous. It took months. It required
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: incredible discipline, isolation, as I mentioned, fasting. and then that
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: you would summon a series of demons in stages. The
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: first summoning would be maybe three lower order demons, and
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: then nine, and then 12, and then, I don't know, 48,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: and then finally, and at each stage, according to the
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Abramelene operation, you were supposed to bind these spirits or demons.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: During some point, during the middle of this operation, he
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: got called away to Paris. And he didn't complete it,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: and he didn't, let's say, close the portal that he
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: had opened. And in the meantime, all these strange things
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: began happening at Boleskine House. He had estate managers there,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: one of which was a teetotaler at best. Suddenly he became,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: almost overnight, a raging alcoholic and in a drunken rage.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I believe killed his wife and maybe one or two
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: of his children in another incident. A butcher in the
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: nearby village who received a note from Alistair Crowley, inexplicably
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: took a meat cleaver and chopped off his own hand, deliberately,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: not by accident. There are all sorts of other paranormal
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: activity going on at the house. So zoom ahead to...
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: late 1960s, early 1970s. And Jimmy Page, who was a
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: devotee of Aleister Crowley, collected anything and everything that was
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: in some way connected to Aleister Crowley. He opened a
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: bookshop dedicated to Crowley in London. I believe it was
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: called the Equinox. He had first edition books, manuscripts by
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Aleister Crowley, you name it. And at some point, Jimmy
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Page was It was a genuine believer. Now, I'm not
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: saying that Jimmy Page is a Satanist. I don't know
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: what's in his heart and mind, but he was certainly
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: dabbling in the occult. He was opening doors. Maybe he
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: didn't understand what was behind those doors. However, he believed
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: in ritual magic and the power of ritual magic, and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: he thought that that would help him further. Again, this
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: is almost like the archetypal Faustian bargain. He thought that
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: he could use this ritual magic to further his career.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: He wanted Led Zeppelin to be, you know, the most
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: popular band in the world, and he wanted not only
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: fame but fortune and all of that that so many
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: rock stars desire. So he also had an estate manager
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: looking after Boltzken House when he was on the road
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: or recording, and this estate manager, who was a very
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: sort of straight as an arrow, not a fantasist by
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: any means. He also started reporting some strange things going
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: on at Boleskin House. Jimmy Page had imported some massive
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: chairs for his banquet hall or his dining room. These
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: were very famous chairs that had been used by, I think,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: everybody from, I don't know, Oscar Wilde and different people.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: They had nameplates on these chairs. He paid a lot
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: of money for them. But in the middle of the night...
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: And again, a lot of this happened when Jimmy Page
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: was not home. The estate manager would wake up and
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: find these chairs strangely stacked one on top of the
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: other or moved around the room. And there were many
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: other things that he had noticed as well. So Jimmy
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Page at some point summons the other members of the band,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: except for bassist John Paul Jones, who reportedly wanted no
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: part of this. Robert Plant and John Bonham, I think,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: kind of went begrudgingly. I don't think they were necessarily,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: you know, buying into this whole idea of ritual magic,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: but they thought, let's humor Jimmy, perhaps, who was kind
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: of the driving force of the band. And they performed
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: some sort of an occult ritual. And, um, Jimmy also
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: had them design their own occult symbols, what are known
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: as sigils. Um, and if you go on to the
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: album cover or the inside the, um, the gate cover of,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I believe it's Led Zeppelin III, you'll see these symbols.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Page identifies himself as Zozo, Z-O-S-O. We say Zed
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: in Canada, for those of you wondering, or Z-O-S-O in
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: the United States. Zozo, what is Zozo? Some have speculated
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: that might be an ancient Babylonian demon or something like that.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: The others, John Bonham and Robert Plant, were either assigned
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: a sigil or they They designed their own. It's funny
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: because on Led Zeppelin III, you don't see the name
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Led Zeppelin. You don't see Robert Plant's name mentioned. Jimmy
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Page's idea was that let's see if we can create
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: an album that doesn't require any marketing. It doesn't say
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Led Zeppelin. It just has these occult symbols. And then
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: on the inner groove of the vinyl disc itself was
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: a famous saying from Aleister Crowley, do what the do
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: what that will, will, I believe it was, you know,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: whatever you desire basically is all that really matters is
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: what he was saying. That's the whole of the law.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: So that was placed on there because Jimmy Page believed
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: that these words and these sigils had power to influence people.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And imagine, you know, millions of fans buying these albums
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: and playing these records that this would be part of
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: the ritual magic. Now, what happened afterwards, unfortunately, is kind
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: of a litany of woe and tragedy. You had people
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: in the inner circle of the band and hangers-on and
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: members of the entourage and recording engineers and backup singers
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: on certain tracks dying. suddenly and tragically, and in some
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: cases violently, car crashes, falling down stairs, these sorts of things.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: And then, of course, Robert Plant is on vacation in
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Greece with his family. They get into a horrible car accident.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever been to Greece, but
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: the mountain roads there, I mean, there's no guardrails. It's
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: very treacherous. It can be. Anyway, a horrible car accident.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: I believe Robert Plant was confined to a wheelchair for
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: a short time.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: He may have even appeared on stage at a show
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: or two in a wheelchair. Don't quote me on that.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going from memory on that one. But it was
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: a very close call. And then, of course, when they
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: were on tour several years later, and Robert Plant receives
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: the telephone call no parent ever wants to receive, and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: that was that his son, Carrick, who I believe at
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: the time was three or four, had become suddenly and
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: inexplicably very ill, and he passed away. Robert... Jimmy Page
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: descended into heroin addiction. And then, of course, in 1980,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: early 1980, we have John Bonham dying after a night
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: of incredibly heavy drinking. So that's the story in a nutshell. Now, again,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: listeners will have, or readers will have to decide whether
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: that was a Faustian bargain and the devil called in
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: his debt Um, or is, is that some psychological, you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: confirmation bias? I don't know. Um, you know, I don't,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: I don't have the definitive answer. I mean, I do
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: believe as a Christian that in an unseen world, I
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: believe in, uh, demons. I believe in angels. Uh, I
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: believe that even if you don't necessarily buy into this
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: idea of, you know, the occult or, um, occult influences, um,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: That even if you move towards that, it's an invitation.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: It's an invitation. You open up something and sometimes something
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: walks through that doorway.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I agree. Me too. One of my favorite segments
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in your new book was the story of Robert Johnson.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: You describe him as the spiritual grandfather of rock and roll.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: not just because of his music, but because of the
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: 27 Club and what you call Crossroad Curse. Can you
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: take us through that legend of Robert Johnson?
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: He was a Delta blues man, which predates rock and roll,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: but it was one of the elements that eventually came
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: together thanks to people like Little Richard and Chuck Berry.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: And you had this incredible stew, if you will, of
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: all these different cultures and musical genres, like the Delta Blues,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: like Negro spirituals, that the slaves would sing to elevate
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: their spirits under horrible conditions in the cotton fields. Negro spirituals,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Delta Blues, country music. You had Appalachia. You had Cajuns.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: You had Africans. All of this mixed in together, and
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: it eventually became rock and roll. So that's sort of
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: the origin of why some point to Robert Johnson as
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: the great-grandfather of rock. But he also kind of lived
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: the archetypal rock and roll lifestyle. And again, we're talking
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: about the 1930s. He was the son of a sharecropper.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Life was hard. It was brutally short in some instances,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: in many instances. And he wanted a way out. And
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: for someone like Robert Johnson living in Mississippi in the 1930s,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: one way out was to become a musician. And so
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: he started hanging around a legitimate master of the Delta Blues.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: His name was Son House, and there were some others,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: but Son House was sort of the leader, his hero.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: And Son House indulged him at first. Robert Johnson would
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: go to their shows at these various juke joints, and
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: that was the out, right? If you wanted to get
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: out from under the life of a sharecropper, you learn
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: the guitar, you get to play in these juke joints.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: juke as in jukebox, and, you know, all the free
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: liquor you can drink and all the fine young ladies
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: want your attention, you know, what 27-year-old or 25-year-old would
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: turn their nose up at that? But eventually, Sunhouse concluded
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that this kid was hopeless. I mean, at best, to
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: be kind, you could say that he was, Robert Johnson,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: that is, he was mediocre. Again, that's being kind. Son
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: House eventually just kind of chased him away because he
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: was becoming annoying. And then Robert Johnson disappears for like
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: a year. And there are some theories as to, you know,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: why did he disappear? Was he going looking for his
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: long-lost father? We're not really sure. But one night, about
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: a year later, Son House and his crew are in
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: the parking lot of some juke joint in between sets,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: and they're having a smoke break. And all of a sudden,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: they hear the most otherworldly music. This incredible music. These
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: incredible sounds, incredible guitar riffs and chords and tunings. And
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: Son House was just enthralled. And so he and his
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: bandmates ran back into the juke joint where they'd been performing.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: And up on the stage, cast in this eerie spotlight
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: with his back turned to the audience for part of
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: the performance, was none other than Robert Johnson. And Son
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: House was gobsmacked. How is this kid, who was mediocre
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: at best, now, a year later, playing like a master?
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Playing better than me? This isn't possible. It doesn't square.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: So in Son House's mind, he had made that Faustian bargain.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: They didn't call it a Faustian bargain. He called it... Well,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: there's a term for the devil down in the Delta.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: They called him Old Scratch. And The legend of the
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: crossroads goes back all the way to the Middle Ages
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: and probably even beyond, even into Africa. This idea of
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: making some sort of a deal at a crossroads. The
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: crossroads during the Middle Ages, for example, was where they
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: would bury a convicted witch after they'd been executed, drowned
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: or hanged or burned at the stake, God forfend. because
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: the crossroads were considered unhallowed ground. You wouldn't bury them
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: in a church cemetery. You'd bury them at the side
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: of the road at a crossroads. So the legend was
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: that if you wanted fame and fortune and what every
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: young rock star or blues man wants, you would go
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: on a moonless night and you would meet at a crossroads.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: These crossroads are in Clarksdale, Mississippi. It's the intersection of,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: I believe it's Highway 49 and I'm not sure if
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: it's Highway 61. there's a commemorative marker there now, actually,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: talking about or that mentions, you know, Robert Johnson and
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: the Curse of the Crossroads. Anyway, Sunhouse certainly believed that
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: this was the case. They would often ask Robert Johnson
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: about it. He would be very coy. He wouldn't out
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: and out admit it, but he certainly wrote about it
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: in his song lyrics. You know, the devil knocked on
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: my door and he said it's time to go. And
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: then he wrote another song about hellhounds on my trail.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: you know, being trailed by hellhounds, the debt is coming due.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: So again, he didn't admit it, but he also, he
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: did admit that he liked to practice in cemeteries at night.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: And people thought, well, that's odd. And Sunhouse concluded, okay,
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: so that's where the devil is giving him his instructions.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: I should just back up a moment. So he meets
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Old Scratch on a moonless night at the crossroads. And
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I think according to the tradition, you turn your back
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: to the devil and you hand the guitar over your
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: left shoulder and the devil takes it and tunes it
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: to some ungodly tuning, magical tuning and hands it back. And, uh,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think you necessarily sign a contract in your
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: own blood, but basically you've made a contract. You've made
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: a deal. Um, and getting back to Faust for a minute,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: some people may be, may be, um, knowledgeable about, uh,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: about Faust and, and, uh, it's been written about by
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: people like Philip Marlowe, who was a contemporary of Shakespeare.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: He wrote a story about Faust back in the 16th,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: 16th century. Um, uh, Goethe, uh, Goethe, I'm not, never from,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: never sure how to pronounce his name. The great writer
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: wrote about Faust. Typically the According to their version, the
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Faustian bargain or the deal with the devil is for
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: 24 years. Not in this case. Robert Johnson, I'm not
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: sure how much longer he lived after that supposed deal,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: but he made a kind of a rookie mistake in
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: a juke joint one night. And you have to keep
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: in mind, Robert Johnson was a bit of a ladies' man,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and there were a lot of jealous and angry husbands
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: and boyfriends out there. Some of them may have worked
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: in these juke joints. Robert, after a set, was invited
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: to take a swig from an open bottle of whiskey
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: from someone he didn't know. Again, that's a rookie mistake
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: because you never know what's going to happen. Well, someone
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: laced that whiskey with either arsenic or strychnine. Robert went
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: home and supposedly spent the next day and a half
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: maybe writhing in agony and on his knees, screaming like
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: a hellhound, begging for mercy. And that's the way he died,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: the inaugural member of the 27 Club. The debt had
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: been collected.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Now, hopefully we have enough time for this last story.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: I remember you sharing on your podcast, and it's also
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: the final chapter in your book, There Will Be No Barbecue.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: It was one of the most memorable stories I've heard
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: you tell. Would you mind sharing that and what happened
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: with your friend, R. Gary Patterson?
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I'd be happy to. First of all, a little bit
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: about R. Gary Patterson. He was a rock and roll historian.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: We used to call him the Fox Mulder of rock
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: and roll, for those of you familiar with the X-Files.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: He was a musician in his own right. He was
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: a teacher. He lived in a little coal mining Civil
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: War era town outside of Knoxville, Tennessee, called Oliver Springs.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: And we were great friends. He was a regular on
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Coast to Coast. He came on my old radio show
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: when I was back in Toronto at CFRB. And then
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: later on Zoomer Radio on The Conspiracy Show. I knew
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: him probably 10, 12 years before I actually met him
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: face to face. He came up to Toronto to do
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: a live stage show with George Norrie of Coast to
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Coast AM fame. And that was the first time we
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: actually got to meet each other in person. We went
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: out to dinner. in Greektown, and we decided we were
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: going to work on a radio project about these various topics.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: And Gary loved to talk about, you know, the clues
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: that Paul McCartney was killed and was replaced by a
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: body double. That's chapter two in the book. And we
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: were working towards launching a terrestrial radio show called The
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Spirit of Rock. Gary died on Friday, May the 26th
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: in 2017. He called me that night, and it was
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: dark out. I remember this distinctly when he called. And
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: it gets dark out up here in the spring, usually
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: around 9, 9.30. And so I remember it distinctly being
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: very dark. And he called to tell me that a
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: meeting that was scheduled for Monday with the general manager
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: of a radio station in Knoxville who wanted to take
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: the show, the radio show, we had to postpone it
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: because Monday was going to be Memorial Day. Memorial Day.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: So we were heading into Memorial Day weekend. That was
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: the purpose of his call. But then, out of the blue,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: he started saying these very strange things to me. One
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: of them was, Rich, you know what? You're a really
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: cool dad. And I thought, well, where is that coming from?
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: I do have twin boys who were maybe 11 at
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: the time. And I thought, well, that's Gary being Gary.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: He never a crossword, just always, you know, supportive and
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: generous in his praise. And then the next thing he
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: said was, Rich... You and I are a really big deal.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: I thought, where is that coming from? And then I thought, okay, well,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: we're about to launch a radio show. Maybe he's just
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: trying to build up our spirit and our morale, build
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: us up a little bit. And towards the end of
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: the call, I said to Gary, so Memorial Day weekend,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: are you going to have a big barbecue or what?
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: And for the first time in all the years I
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: knew Gary, he got really kind of curt with me.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: He sounded almost, well, he was very sharp, very unlike him.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: And he said, there will be no barbecue, just like that.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: And I thought, oh boy, did I just step on
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: a landmine? Is there something going on with his family
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know about? So flash ahead the next morning,
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: and I learn from Dave Schrader, one of the guest
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: hosts at that time on Coast to Coast AM. He
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: sent me a Facebook message saying, Rich, I thought you
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: should know. I know you were good friends with Gary.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: He passed away last night. And I remember distinctly, I
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: was on my front porch with my coffee, checking my messages,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: and I laughed. I thought, oh, come on. I just
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: talked to him. So I called Gary up, and I
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: get his outgoing message, of course. I leave a message. Gary,
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: you better call Coast. They think you're dead. What the
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: heck's going on? Give me a call. Well, it was true.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: As it turned out, he was gone. But I rushed upstairs,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: and my wife, the mighty Aphrodite, just getting out of bed,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: and she looked at me. She goes, what's wrong? And
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: I said, this is important because I didn't prompt her.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: I said, Gary's dead. And we talked like three, four
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: times a week. She looked at me without me prompting her.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: And she said, you were just talking to him last night.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: And I said, I thought so. She said, check the
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: recents on your iPhone. And I did. There were no
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: incoming calls on Friday. No outgoing calls. Nobody called me
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: that Friday. There was a call from Gary on the Wednesday.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: We spoke on the Wednesday. Remember it? Nothing on the Friday.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: So I fly down to the funeral and there's Gary
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: in this beautiful blue casket and I think he had
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: a Fender guitar on a little stand in front of
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: the casket and there was his older brother Mike in
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: the reception line and I went up and introduced myself
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: and he was very appreciative that I'd made the trip
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: down from Toronto and he said, oh, Gary was very
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: fond of you and I was just really holding it back.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was just gutted. And I didn't want
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: to say to him, you know what? I just spoke
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: to him on Friday night. What's going on? I just said,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: you know, one of the last conversations I had with
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: your brother, I asked him if he was going to
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: have a barbecue on Memorial Day weekend. I asked him
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: that on the Friday. And he was kind of angry
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: with me. He said, there'll be no barbecue. I should
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: just back up one second. This is important, a very
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: important detail. I said, you know, how did he die?
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: And he said, well, it was sudden. They think it
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: was a heart attack. It turns out he had diabetes,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: so complications maybe, but, you know, died instantly. I said,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: what time was it? And again, I'm not letting on
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: that I talked to him on the Friday. He said,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: we think it was around five o'clock. And I'm thinking
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: five o'clock on the Friday. I spoke to him on
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: Friday night. It was dark out. And then I asked
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: him about the barbecue. What does that mean? There will
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: be no barbecue. And Mike looked at me, kind of
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: a skew. And he said, he said that to you?
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: I said, yeah.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: He said, there will be no barbecue. What does that mean?
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: He said, well, that is odd because he spent all
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Friday afternoon driving around town. I guess he went into, um,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: there's a town out of, outside of Oliver Springs. I
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: think it's called Oak Ridge or something, Tennessee. And he
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: spent all afternoon looking for a brand new barbecue. He
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: ended up spending like $ 500 on a brand new one,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: And he spent the rest of the afternoon, until he died,
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: putting that thing together. We were going to have a barbecue. Except,
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Gary died. There was no barbecue. There will be no barbecue.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: He told me that. Friday, as best as I can remember,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: I'm open to other suggestions, he told me that. Several
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: hours after he passed away.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Wow. Richard... Your book is amazing. It's fascinating. And I
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: could keep you here for hours. We just barely scratched
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: the surface, but I really appreciate you taking the time
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: coming on the show to share these incredible stories with us.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Before we wrap up, where can people find your new book,
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Tales from the Rock and Roll Twilight Zone, your podcast,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: and anywhere else that you'd like people to connect with you?
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Tales from the Rock and Roll Twilight Zone. eerie enigmas
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: and supernatural secrets from Rock's Darkest Corners, available at all
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: the usual places, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, I think online.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: I think it's even available at Walmart online, other chapters maybe.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: You can get more information at therockandrolltwilightzone.com. I've put a
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: couple of sample chapters or parts of sample chapters up
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: there on the website, therockandrolltwilightzone.com. My podcast drops every Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: It's called Richard Serrett's Strange Planet. strangeplanet.ca. You can subscribe.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: You can become a premium subscriber. There are three sort
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: of tiers to choose from, commercial free listening, bonus episodes.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: You can subscribe to my newsletter there at strangeplanet.ca. It's free,
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: comes out once a month. It's called Inner Sanctum. That's
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: where I take some deep dives. You can also listen
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: to me on Coast to Coast AM. In fact, I'm
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: going to be broadcasting live from Coast Studios in Los Angeles,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: August 28th, 29th, and 30th. And I think that's about everything. Nice.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much again for taking the
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: time to join me today. It was an absolute pleasure
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: and honor, actually, to have this to speak to you.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: Mia, great meeting you. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: Thanks, guys, for listening. And I'll see you on the
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: next one. A hui hou kakou. Bye.
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: I know you say you're not afraid to dive into
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: something you.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Got nothing to lose but.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: I'm not that way taking my sweet time don't wanna
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: be the one to cry but i'm losing my cool
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: breaking my rules i don't usually get so When you
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: walk into the room and I can't think straight.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: There's no one like you.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: But how I can I chase this feeling with you?
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: Don't walk away from this tonight. I'm going with you.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: Losing my cool. Breaking my rules. I don't usually get
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: so out of my head. Walking the edge. What am
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: I falling into? Losing my cool, breaking my rules I
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: don't usually get told Out of my head, walking the
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: edge What am I falling into? I'll be again, where
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: do I land? Tell me, is it too soon? Losing
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: my cool, breaking my rules I'm going crazy over you Crazy,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: I'm going crazy Crazy over you Crazy, got me crazy
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: I'm going crazy over you