Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Secrets buried under California 'house of horrors'? Mom murdered for secret online life? Facebook selfie puts girl in prison!

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Secrets buried under California 'house of horrors'? Mom murdered for secret online life? Facebook selfie puts girl in prison! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: to Nancy's beats dot com. Today. Crime Stories with Nancy
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  Speaker 1: Grace on Serious x M Triumph Channel one thirty two
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  Speaker 1: children chained to their beds and starved, lying in their
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  Speaker 1: own urine and feces until one of them, a brave
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  Speaker 1: teen girl who cops believe when they finally see her,
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  Speaker 1: is about ten due to malnutrition, makes a daring escape
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  Speaker 1: through window. She actually takes a little sister along with
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  Speaker 1: the sister is so afraid of what her parents will
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  Speaker 1: do to her if they find out she escapes, she
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  Speaker 1: turns back. The teen girl goes on and the House
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  Speaker 1: of Horrors is discovered. Well, there is so much breaking
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  Speaker 1: news it's like drinking from a fire hija. But let's
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  Speaker 1: get right down to it. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with thus with me.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, l A psychoanalyst, and Joseph Scott Morgan
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  Speaker 1: forensics expert, Chuck Roberts, Crime Stories investigative reporter, Scott Kimbler,
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  Speaker 1: investigative reporter, and Dr Jesse Barelli, psychologist, University of California.
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  Speaker 1: To all of you, thank you very first thing, we
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  Speaker 1: learned that investigators are bringing in cadaver dogs cadaver dogs
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  Speaker 1: to look to search for the remains of more children
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  Speaker 1: and order DNA testing on the couple's victims. That's right,
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  Speaker 1: police considering bringing in cadaver dogs to determine if there
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  Speaker 1: are remains of more children in this horrific home. We
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  Speaker 1: also learn that the mom wanted to have even more children.
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  Speaker 1: What thirteens? Not enough? One and more children? And can
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  Speaker 1: you can you believe this because she wanted a reality show.
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  Speaker 1: There's so much more happening. The parents just in court
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  Speaker 1: facing dozens and dozens of counts of felony crimes. But
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  Speaker 1: first to Chuck Roberts, Crime Stories Investigative reported, Chuck, tell
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  Speaker 1: me the latest on what's happening in court. What happened, Well,
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  Speaker 1: the bond was set to thirteen million dollars. Eat as
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  Speaker 1: you said, they faced a lot of charges depended adult abuse,
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  Speaker 1: false imprisonment, child abuse, torture. The two year old was
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  Speaker 1: not abused at all, the youngest of the children, So
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  Speaker 1: there's only twelve counts, not thirteen of child abuse. But
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  Speaker 1: the cadaver dogs, you know they will be if if
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  Speaker 1: in fact the Riverside DA wants to do this, they
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  Speaker 1: will be brought to every known residence including Texas. So
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  Speaker 1: this investigation is just now really unfolded. WHOA, whoa, whoa,
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  Speaker 1: whoa back it up now, I'm takeing it. That is
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  Speaker 1: because Joseph Scott Morgan joining me forensics expert, Professor of
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  Speaker 1: Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott Morgan. These this family,
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  Speaker 1: these parents have gone from home to home to home.
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  Speaker 1: I guess I call it a house because this was
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  Speaker 1: no way at home. And I recall investigating one of
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  Speaker 1: the homes in Texas and the new owners, the people
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  Speaker 1: that bought it, said they found scratch marks and claw
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  Speaker 1: marks at the doors, and that the carpet was soaked
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  Speaker 1: with urine feces and they thought they just had a
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  Speaker 1: lot of pets. Joe Scott, it was those children clawing
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  Speaker 1: at the door and the closets to get out. How
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  Speaker 1: do cadaver dogs work, explained to us. How we're going
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  Speaker 1: back ten years to their old homes where they used
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  Speaker 1: to live. What could cadaver dogs possibly find after this
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  Speaker 1: period of time. Well, first off, I find it very
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  Speaker 1: interesting that the police atomatically are at least they have
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  Speaker 1: the idea that they have a need for cadaver dog.
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  Speaker 1: I think that tells us a lot upfront, Nancy. Secondly, UH,
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  Speaker 1: these dogs are specifically trained, their their noses work on
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  Speaker 1: a on a very broad spectrum, and they are trained,
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  Speaker 1: UH specifically to smell for um for hints of human decomposition,
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  Speaker 1: which in UH in the parlance of dealing with dogs.
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  Speaker 1: They have humans have a very specific odor which which
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  Speaker 1: dogs will pick up on. Even going back some distance
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  Speaker 1: in time now ten years, I don't know how much
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  Speaker 1: success they will have. However, Um, if these if there
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  Speaker 1: are bodies that are located in these dwellings, it's gonna
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  Speaker 1: be very interesting to find out how these bodies, if
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  Speaker 1: they're there, how they were disposed of, and um, how
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  Speaker 1: they were kind of sequestered or hidden away from everything else. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I mean think about it. Let's bring in our shrinks
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  Speaker 1: on this with me. Dr Bethany Marshall from l A.
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  Speaker 1: Dr Jesse Barelli from University California. Dr Bethany, Let's take
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  Speaker 1: this thing through. They have a habit of going from
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  Speaker 1: home to home. Why why would they pick up and leave?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, this guy is an educated engineer at one
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  Speaker 1: time pulling down about a hundred and fifty grand a year,
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  Speaker 1: way way over the national medium. I mean that that's
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  Speaker 1: like over three times the national income for a whole family.
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  Speaker 1: So why pick up and leave? What are they hiding?
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  Speaker 1: What are they running from? And think about this up.
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  Speaker 1: Jackie here in the studio wants me to throw this in.
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  Speaker 1: This came out about bringing cadaver dogs after the siblings
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  Speaker 1: were rescued. Have one of them stated something like, I
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  Speaker 1: used to have another little sister. What happened to her?
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  Speaker 1: Think about a bathany? Wow? Okay, Nancy, you and I
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  Speaker 1: have covered so many stories together where parents have killed
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  Speaker 1: their children and where they secrete the bodies is often
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  Speaker 1: so amazing. Wasn't there one story where a child was
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  Speaker 1: hidden above the door jam? There was another story where
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  Speaker 1: a child was hidden below a stairway. I left out
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  Speaker 1: the Chinese restaurant, the China. They're hidden everywhere, everywhere, absolutely,
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  Speaker 1: So let me go to a new guest joining us today,
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  Speaker 1: let the hazing began. Okay, just kidding. Dr Jesse Barelli,
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  Speaker 1: psychologists joining me from University of California. Dr Jesse, thank
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  Speaker 1: you for being with us. I'd love to hear your
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  Speaker 1: thoughts on this. Yeah. I think I think it's very possible.
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  Speaker 1: With their other children around, were other children around, um. However,
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  Speaker 1: these parents seem to have a knack for figuring out
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  Speaker 1: a way to keep their kids living on death store
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  Speaker 1: step um. And so they may be very skilled at it.
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  Speaker 1: And and that's maybe how they liked to have their children,
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  Speaker 1: all of them in that near dying range in terms
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  Speaker 1: of their weight UM. So it's possible that they don't
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  Speaker 1: have any that that they didn't want to kill their children,
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  Speaker 1: but that they just wanted them to be at that
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  Speaker 1: level of dependence on them. Yeah, that's a good point.
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  Speaker 1: Dr Jesse Barrella you joining me from University California. What
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  Speaker 1: about the fact that right now we have been told
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  Speaker 1: all of these children have been separated at least into
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  Speaker 1: two hospitals, if not more, one for eighteen and old
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  Speaker 1: er one for seventeen and under. Of course, when cops
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  Speaker 1: saw these children, they thought they were all between two
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  Speaker 1: and ten years old because they were so malnutrition. But
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  Speaker 1: what effect is that separation going to have on them?
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  Speaker 1: Dr Jesse Barelli. Yeah, I think that it's it's a
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  Speaker 1: mistake to be separating them. It's hard because our standard
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  Speaker 1: medical protocol involved separating adults from minors. So that's that's
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  Speaker 1: just the way that all hospitals work, UM in terms
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  Speaker 1: of psychiatric and medical treatment. But it might be a
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  Speaker 1: mistake in this case because these kids are not are
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  Speaker 1: not really adults probably um in terms of their true
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  Speaker 1: developmental age UM, and having another separation from their siblings
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  Speaker 1: on top of being separated from their parents could be additionally,
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  Speaker 1: um disturbing for them. Well, as you have stated, quote,
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  Speaker 1: when we come into the world, our attachment figures are
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  Speaker 1: our primary sources of safety and security, no matter how
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  Speaker 1: abusive they are. Then includes siblings, what do you make
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  Speaker 1: of the fact that they are separated from the parents?
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  Speaker 1: Thank god, Well, we're happy for that, But in their
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  Speaker 1: mind that's all they know. Yeah, I mean, I think
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  Speaker 1: that's going to be a real hurdle to overcome um
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  Speaker 1: as as they move forward. And something that's hard for
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  Speaker 1: the public to recognize is that, you know, those of
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  Speaker 1: us on the other side are really grateful that they've
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  Speaker 1: been rescued, but they may be primarily grieving and afraid
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  Speaker 1: of the world. Hold. So one thing I've been curious about,
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  Speaker 1: for example, how much contact they had with the outside world,
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  Speaker 1: not in terms of interactions with other people, because we
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  Speaker 1: know those were pretty limited, but in terms of access
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  Speaker 1: to media and things like that. But they, for all
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  Speaker 1: we know, they could have very little idea of what
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  Speaker 1: the world is like. Um, they could have false ideas
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  Speaker 1: of what the world is like that their parents have
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  Speaker 1: um have provided them, Like, well, let's go back to
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  Speaker 1: what we know. Let's follow up on that, uh, joining me,
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  Speaker 1: Chuck Robert, Scott Kidler, Joe Scott Morgan, Dr Bethany Marshall,
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  Speaker 1: and Dr Jesse Barelli Chuck Roberts. It was my understanding
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  Speaker 1: in their bedroom where they were padlock, not just chained,
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  Speaker 1: but chained and padlocked to their beds, fed once a
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  Speaker 1: day at most, they got a shower twice a year
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  Speaker 1: a year. I don't call anything about TVs being in there. Nothing, no,
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  Speaker 1: absolutely and and you know, no contact with the outside world.
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  Speaker 1: It's amazing that that the the little girl, the teenager
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  Speaker 1: knew how to use the cell phone in down nine one.
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  Speaker 1: But the smaller children apparently were raised by the older children.
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  Speaker 1: That's part of this, you know, quiverful movement is the
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  Speaker 1: family was part of this movement that called for large families.
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  Speaker 1: And David Turin's parents said that God called on them
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  Speaker 1: to have more children. They were homeschooled. They completely shunned
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  Speaker 1: the influences of outside world. The children were told to
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  Speaker 1: memorize the Bible in its entirety. It was a lot
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  Speaker 1: of you know, psychological you know, to Dr Bethany Marshall,
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  Speaker 1: l a psychoanalyst, why does God always get dragged into
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  Speaker 1: these scenarios I'm pretty sure he slash she had nothing
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  Speaker 1: to do with what these parents did to their children.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I and I am not certainly not one
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  Speaker 1: to quota scripture, but I do recall let the little
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  Speaker 1: ones come unto me, for such is the kingdom of God.
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  Speaker 1: In other words, children are the closest thing on earth
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  Speaker 1: to the Angel. That's the way I take it. I
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  Speaker 1: certainly don't think that UM includes pad locking them to
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  Speaker 1: their beds and starving them and letting them lie there
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  Speaker 1: in their own faeces. And you're in Dr Bethany Marshall.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this. You probably don't,
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  Speaker 1: but one night we were going live as usual on
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  Speaker 1: our children show, and I had um was in a
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  Speaker 1: fit because the previous night I had stayed with the children,
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  Speaker 1: as you know, till the last second, and had bathed them,
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  Speaker 1: lotion them, put them fresh dives, given them a ball,
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  Speaker 1: and then sneaked or snuck anyway, creeped. I'll go with
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  Speaker 1: creep since I know the correct tense. Thank you, thank
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: you out the door, and what I got home a
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  Speaker 1: few hours later. You know, the crosstown traffic in Manhattan
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  Speaker 1: was crazy blah blah in those few hours, they had
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  Speaker 1: each gotten a scorching case of diaper rash. How did
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  Speaker 1: that happen so quickly? I do not know, but I
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  Speaker 1: came in they were asleep. I didn't want to bother them.
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  Speaker 1: I waited for about an hour, and then I went
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  Speaker 1: in and checked them. They were It was awful. And
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  Speaker 1: they cried and they cried and they cried. And the
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  Speaker 1: next night I almost had to stay home from work,
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  Speaker 1: but I couldn't bring myself to say I can't come
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  Speaker 1: to work because the children have diaper rash. I knew
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  Speaker 1: somewhere and deep in my psyche that that was wrong.
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  Speaker 1: So I covered them in butt paste and did my
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  Speaker 1: best so Dr Bethany. That's just after I guess it
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  Speaker 1: was five hours they were it was. They were already
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  Speaker 1: like red welts, and they looked like it was awful.
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  Speaker 1: What about these children? I mean, how did they lying
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  Speaker 1: God on what they were doing to their children? Lying
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  Speaker 1: there because they couldn't get away from their beds and
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  Speaker 1: urine and feces. I'm getting far afield of cadaver dogs.
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  Speaker 1: And how many accounts, Jackie, how many felony accounts? Is
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  Speaker 1: felon accounts? That's the latest. But how why are they
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  Speaker 1: dragging God into it? They were no more homeschooling these
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  Speaker 1: children than the man in the moon, Nancy. Because the
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  Speaker 1: monster at the head of this family, the father, David Turpin,
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  Speaker 1: was probably a sociopath. And as you know, these sociopaths
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  Speaker 1: are so grandiose. They always think they have a direct
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: pipeline to God. They're speaking to God, They're in the
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: mouthpiece of God, and they use religiosity to course their
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: families and their children. And so I think this is
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: even worse than a house of horrors where the children
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: are malnourished. I keep thinking about the role of sadism
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: in how the children were treated, because they love to
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: torture these children. You know, according to one report, if
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: they got water above their wrists, they were punished because
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: they were then told that they were playing with water.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And I know I'm always bringing sex into these things,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: but but sada Sadism is one of the five sexual perversions.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: And so I think of sadism and sexual deviancy going
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: hand in hand. And I keep thinking that what we're
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  Speaker 1: going to discover is that this was actually a sex cult,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: that the father kept having more and more children so
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: that he could have sexual relations with them. It's just
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: a theory. This hasn't been substantiated, and that that we
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  Speaker 1: might even find that some of the children were fathered um,
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  Speaker 1: that the father fathered other children with his own children,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: because there's already one lewd sex act against a child
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  Speaker 1: that was one of the charges. So I think that
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: sexual perversion and deviancy is going to be something that
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: UM emerges as a part of the story with his
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: family interrupt You know why, you just read my mind,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, And I was just coming to you because
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: I have this on my list of new developments, but
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Dr Bethany just brought it up. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University. Not only are they planning
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: to bring in cadaver dogs to the old two old
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  Speaker 1: homes in the current home, but they're considering ordering d
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: n A. Now you heard what Dr Bethany was just
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: referring to, like um for instance, where some of these
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: children fathered by other children, but also were they kidnapped,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: where any of them kidnapped. If you look at them,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: they have a startling similarity. I don't see a kidnap
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: going down, but DNA testing. How difficult is that going
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: to be? Well? With the uh the current children, uh,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: the ones that are living. Uh, it's it's not going
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: to be very difficult. And this is this is one
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: of the things that police and now I was gonna
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: I was I was reading Dr Bethany's mind on this
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: as well, because this uh psycho sexual thing that's going
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: on where they're keeping these kids sequestered. I remember covering
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: a couple of cases like this in the past. Um,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: you've got this this kind of intermingling, uh, potentially, let
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: me just put it in the let me couch it.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: In these terms, if I was investigating a case similar
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: to this, UM, I would look long and hard at
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the DNA of the older children, uh compared to that
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: of the younger children in this particular case, because I
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: want to make sure that there was uh no interbreeding
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: going on, and that opens up an entire different can
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: of worms here. Oh man, you're not kidding, And they've
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: got to be super careful with the DNA because you've
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: got if this is true, the children's DNA is very
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: similar to the parents DNA, and if there was insists
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: going on the home, it's going to be a tricky affair,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: but certainly nothing a DNA expert can't handle. Uh, here's
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: the good news. They're alive, they have life. They will
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: be in therapy probably the rest of their lives to
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: have anything close to a somewhat some of normalcy. But
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: they're alive, they survived. I mean to see grace. This
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: is Crime Stories and we're bringing you the very latest
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: and the developments in the so called House of horrors.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: We're also learning the mamilet when she was just sixteen,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: that the plan they planned to have even more children
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: than these thirteen because they wanted their own reality show.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: It goes on and on. The homes the mom was
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: brought up in was extremely violent, when you're told by
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: an aunt. And then there's the disturbing parade of children. Occasionally,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: like once every couple of years, they would be trotted
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: out in matching outfits, family photos taken, say at Disneyland,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: or a renewal of vows for the parents in Vegas
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: and sent around disseminated specifically to give the appearance that
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: everything was just fine. Little did the world, including relatives,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: know that behind those walls, the children were being tortured
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: day and night. You know I woke up this morning,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, you know about five o'clock, Joe Scot,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: what time do you get up? Well? Alan calls me
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: so early? You know I get up pre early, you know,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: so I don't know, Jelly dearly about six thirty a m.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I guess. Oh, I'm gonna start calling you at five
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: o'clock to make sure you're up. Now, Dr Bethany, I'm
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: gonna let you have your your beauty leap, but chucking
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Scott you to Dr Jesse. I won't pick on you
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: yet since you're new today, but I think're gonna start
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: rousting you guys up at five o'clock with me to
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: try to get everything done. I envisioned having children, then
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: I got the blessing of twins. It's double time and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I need energy, and you know what I really want.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: I want all the energy all day long. But fatigue,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: getting worn out, exhausted happens, and as you age, it
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: gets worse and worse every year. When you're twinny, your
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: body has a natural ability for healthy circulation and energy,
• 20:35
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• 21:55
  Speaker 1: back to Paris, California. As the saga unfolds of the
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: so called House of horrors. Now this is what we know.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: To Dr Bethany Marshall. The mom elopes with this guy
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: when she's sixteen. I believe he's twenty four. There was,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: according to the aunt on the maternal side, violence in
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: their home as they were growing up. Listen to what
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: the aunt says. There was abuse in your family, yes,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: and you and your your family have been fairly open
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: about that in the week of this discovery. Can you
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: tell us a little about that. Yes, I'm a very
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: very close family member that we should have Sorry, it's okay,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: we should have loved and truth he um abused my
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: mother and sexually abused my mother, and then um me
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: and Louise and a few of our cousins and the family.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: That was a situation that was on one for me
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: and my sisters only because my mother had so much
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: abuse in her life. I think that she was still
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: going through it as an adult, and my mother still
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: took us around this person Um a lot and Louise,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: and some people believe Louise that may have pleaded a
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: role because now we're being told that David is accused
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: of at least one lude act against a child under
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: the age of fourteen. Um, it's not an excuse, of course,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: it's just a it's just a background piece of information.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Did you I know that you saw Louise being in Sorry,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: it's painful to talk about the first time he talks
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: about it. So you have you have you outed publicly
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: the man who did this? No? Um, it's always been
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: a big secret in our family, and the adults in
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: our family protected him because he was family and there
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: was so much that went on with that, you know,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: But it was always a dark family secret that he
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: did this. That's from NBC's Today Show. We also know
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: that statistically, if you grow up in a home with violence,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: you're a home will be violent. How does this fit
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: in Dr Bethany attack that along with the fact we
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: now know the mom wants to have even more children
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: to have her own reality show? How bass ackwards is
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: that it certainly is Nancy. Well. First of all, the
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: fact that she was sixteen when when she married him
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: or when they got together, tells me that already he
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: had a fondness from miners. Okay, so that maybe goes
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: with a sex cult theory. Secondly, if she was exposed
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: to such a violence growing up, the idea of love
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: and violence was fused in her mind in some way
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: as if love and violence are one and the same.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: So in her own recovery process, and hopefully she'll get
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: some treatment in while she while incarcerated, she'll have to
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: unlink the two because the two are very linked for her.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: So with her upbringing where love and violence are fused,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: and according to one report, I read that the children
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: in her home watched their own mother being raped. So
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: we have violence, love and sex being fused, which I
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: think is in some way got recreated in her own family.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I don't believe that she wanted more children to have
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: a reality TV show. She might be saying that she
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: she wanted more children to satisfy her husband's sexual cravings.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: You know, people often say one thing and they mean another. Well,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: listen to this to daughter Jesse Barelli, psychologists joining us
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: from University of California. She actually it. According to the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: brother Billy Lambert quote. She used to say how they
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: would be perfect for TV and would often mention there'd
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: be a bigger hit than the reality show Kate plus eight. Jesse, Yeah,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I think I would try with Dr Bethany on this true.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: I think that having a lot of CHALKMN for a
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: reality TV show is something that's said now more commonly,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: and my guests would be that that's not the real reason,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: but that it has something more to do with um,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: either with Dr Bethy said, or with the the desire
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: to be needed by people who are helpless, which was
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: kind of where my mind goes when I think about
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: this case. To Chuck Roberts Crime Stories investigative reporter, is
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: it true that the two year old was never abused?
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: That's what the Riverside DA is saying, at least according
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: to the Washington Post, that that's why there were only
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: twelve child abuse charges brought, That the two year old
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: was apparently physically unharmed altogether. And you know, I keep
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: going back to what happened with the neighbors. You know,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: the neighbors said that they saw them outside once in
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: a while, mowing the lawn and then doing right back
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: in the house. And they interviewed at a neighbor of
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: the Turpins in Texas, a guy named Rickary Vineyard, who said,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: we thought about reporting them for child abuse, but because
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: David Turpin was armed and did target practice outside, we
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: didn't want any repercussions. So neighbors had an idea, at
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: least in two places, that something was terribly wrong. What
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: do you make of it? Dr Bethany Marshall, l a
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: psychoanalysts to that they would also dress the children up,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: for instance, in matching I guess that's when they got
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: there by annual shower, dress them up for instance matching
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Disney T shirts, and take them and pose at Disney,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: then be there for the day, then take them back
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: home and chain them back to their beds. That must
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: have been excruci adding for the children to see another
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: world for one day and then go back to a
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: dark bedroom with the windows shutter chained to your bed,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: lying in faces. Well, I I don't understand that it's
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: so cruel, but it's it's actually quite perplexing. I've been
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: looking at the photos thinking, like, what what motivated the
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: parents to take the kids out of hiding. Um, maybe
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: for a Facebook post, maybe to cover up all the
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: sadism that was going on in the household. Maybe as
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: a part of the father's own grandiosity. Maybe he just
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: wanted a photo to prove that he was the head
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: of the household. But I think that what we're going
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: to learn is that Ultimately, this is what saved the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: children's lives because, as Um, I think the reporter said
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: earlier in the show, it's sort of surprising that the
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: child who escaped knew how to use the cell phone
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: or even new to escape, or knew that there was
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: another world out there. So I think unwittingly, you know,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: the parents, you know, dressing the kids up, taking them
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: to Disneyland exposed them to the idea that they were
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: living in an upside down world. Without that Nancy, maybe
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: they would never have even known to try to seek help.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: There is a former classmate of one of the older
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: sons who was tortured in their California home, who spoke
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: about what she observed. Angie Parents reveals he had the
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: older son had a quote sadness in his face and
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: eyes that once she saw him at a class pot
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: look and he just scarfed down the food. An introvert
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: who always wore the same clothes all semester. She would
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: he would be taken to school and the mom would
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: wait for him to come out, and he had to
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: come straight to the car. Now, that was the old
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: one of the older sons, and they were enrolled in
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: a course at Mount San Jacinto College, and that was
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: years ago. He wouldn't even make eye contact. What does
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: that say to you? Dr Jesse Barelli wearing the same
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: clothes every day, I guess I could be accused of
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: that quiet and not making any eye contact. And when
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: they did have food one day, a potluck get together,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: he just gorged himself. I think what it says to
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: me is a number of things. That one of them
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: is that the parents were so successful in making the
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: children afraid of the outside world, but this kid is
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: scared to even meet the eyes of another person, you know.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I think that here and several people commented on how
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: how is it that they've children like the house and
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: didn't reach out to someone? Right? So those outings to Disneyland?
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: How did they not make contact or tell people that
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: they were being held captive? And I think that the
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: psychological control was maybe more powerful even than the physical
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: control that these parents exerted. You know a lot of
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: people have made uh much you do by the fact that,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: for instance, in that case, when he would be allowed
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: to go to a one hour class and the mom
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: would watch him go in and wait for him to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: come out like a hawk. But many people have argued
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Dodger Bethany Marshall. Why didn't he or some of the
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: other children say something about their torture when they were
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: at Disneyland. But if you will remember, for instance, Dylan
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: and Shasta Gronie, who were witnesses to their one of
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: their parents murder, along with other people in the home,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: they were kidnapped. They were brutally molested day after day
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: after day in front of each other. The little boy,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Dylan was the murder. His sister saw that. The Shasta,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: the little girl was spotted on closed circuit TV inside
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: of seven eleven, very afraid, looking down. She wouldn't make
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: eye contact with anyone. And the perpetrator was there in
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: the in the seven eleven with her, and she was
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: wandering up the aisles. She never said a word. Then
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: there's like Sean Hornback. Do you remember Sean Hornback and
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: being by Hornback. They were both taken off their bicycles
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: in a very rural area as I recall, it may
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: have been Idaho. But they were kidnapped and Hornback was
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: kept for years and molested and beaten and tortured by
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: a guy, a horrible, horrible guy. Michael Devlin in Kirkwood.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: That's where it was. Kirkwood. He when he was a
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: few times he was released, he wouldn't say anything. There's
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: a reason for that, Dr Bethany. And not only that
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: with hornback, that the boy would um ride his bicycle
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: around in the complex where they lived, where he was
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: away from the captor, and even then he did not
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: seek help. So I think that what we see in
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: these cases is that there's a particular type of mind control,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: and that is that the captor makes the victim feel
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: quite paranoid of the outside world. They tell the victim
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: if you escape or you try to seek help, it's
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: going to be worse for you out there than it
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: is here. Those people they'll kill you, they'll torture you.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: They're not going to believe you. It's your fault. You're
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: going to end up in jail, not me. And these
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: types of messages are just drilled into the brains of
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: the victims so that they actually become more scared of
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: the outside world than of the own captor. And then
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: to the other psychologist was making the point of these
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: dependent relationships. You know, no victim is filled with solely
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: bad feelings about the captor. In other words, they usually
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: have a mix of positive and negative feelings towards the captor,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: so they are bonded with the captors, and so the
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: idea of then leaving that person sometimes makes them feel,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: you know, quite anxious and depressed, as if they don't
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: know how they're going to survive in the world without them.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: What do we know? Also to you, Chuck Roberts, crib
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: storys investigative reporter about dead animals being found um in
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: and around the home. And I also learned that from
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: a guy named Ricky Vineyard, a guy who is a
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: tree feller. He said that they were dead dogs and cats.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: That was in Texas. Yes, and they did find animals,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: deceased animals in inside the house. But oddly enough to
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: multese terriers were found in the home in California, in Paris, California,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: in better condition than the children um that they had
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: been taken care of. So, you know, it's I think
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of this is going to come out in
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: the journals. According to the d A Mike Esthern, they
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: recovered hundreds of journals from inside the children's home, so
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: that's probably going to be part of the evidence. What
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: what what motivated them? And one other point, if you,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: if you allow me, The Department of Education says that
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: David Turpin opened what was called the Sandcastle Day School,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: a K through twelveth school, a private school in eleven
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: It will be interesting to see whether anybody from the
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: outside world was a student at that school or whether
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: that was just for his own children. Well, we learned
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: and in one of the homes to Chihuahua dogs were
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: found malnourished and the only way they could survive was
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: from eating faced from amount of soiled diapers in a
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: trailer behind the property where the children slept. That's how
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: the two little chihuahuas lived, and the current home in California,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: the two year old and the dogs were fine. We
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: learned that they allegedly, I can only even say it
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: would starve their children, to weaken them and assert power,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: then taunt them by displaying desserts that they could eat,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: but the children couldn't have. They were shackled and beaten
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: for even simple minor perceived not real in fractions. That's
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: what's happening now as we follow the so called House
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: of Horrors investigation. I want to pause now and thank
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: our partners making our investigation today possible. Here on se
• 37:00
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• 37:04
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  Speaker 1: Legal zoom dot com. Thank you not only for what
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  Speaker 1: you do for Americans across the country every single day,
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  Speaker 1: but for being our partner here on serious Sex and
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Now we travel to Alabama. Police hot on the trail
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: of an Alabama mom and wife who was found murdered.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Now here's the twist. Kathleen don West found dead outside
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: her home in a very quiet and up, I'm looking
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: at the house right now. It's beautiful. Um found dead
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: outside her home in a quiet bedroom community is just
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: south of Birmingham. She only had on her sports bra.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know where the rest of her clothes were
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: found dead. And this is what we're discovering. This mom,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: she's just she looks like a model. Had a secret life,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: a secret life going down this full time wife and mother.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: But two Scott Kibler joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: What can you tell me? What did you learn about
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: her so called secret life? Well, her secret life wasn't
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: all that much of a secret. She had a double life,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: if you will, um where she had an explicit adult
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: website and was very active on Twitter and on Facebook
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: with posting explicit photos. Wait wait wait wait wait wait
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: wait wait explicit because all I'm saying are shots of
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: her would like some skimpy shorts on and maybe a
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: push up sports bra. Is there more to it than that?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Because I don't call that explicit. I see people jogging
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: and that in fact, I'm holding up my left hand.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Hold on, let me hold up my other left hand.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: I play guilty to running in shorts in a sports bral.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Of course, Bethany, that was many, many years ago. Now
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: it's all I can do to like walk a fast
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: walk at best is certainly not in shorts and a
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: sports bra. To the humiliation of my children, that's not
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: gonna happen. But well, is there something wrong with that,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Scott Kimbla, Is that explicit to You's not entirely explited? No,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: but she did have an adult website that actually charged
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: for access, and that is described as a sexually explicit
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: material website, and an adult website where she went by
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: the name Kitty Cat West. Wait a minute, did you
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: just say kitty Cat West. Yes, Kitty Cat West. Okay,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you say to just to make
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: you say it. But wait a minute, I'm getting way
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: far afield. Joseph's got Morgan. I don't give a flying
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: fig if this lady went by the name kittyicat west Or.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: I don't care about her website or her bush a
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: bra or anything else. I care about who killed this woman.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: But apparently police are paying great attention to this website
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: thinking that may have something to do with her murder.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: And I'll tell you this. Uh, if some kok was
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: onto her website and then she was so naive as
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: to somehow let it slip where she actually lived, I
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: could see a connection. Joseph's got Morgan. What do we
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: know about her body? Let's start with the murder and
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: not the Kitty Cat west a k A alias hit
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: me Joe Scott. I want to know about the murder. Yeah,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: she was. She was found outdoors, uh and in in
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: in the sports brale that you had mentioned, Uh, facedown
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: and she's got a m some type of injury to
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: her head. We know that she was bleeding from the head,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: but to this point we don't really know what the
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: nature or the origin of this injury is. I can
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: guarantee you one thing. Joseph's got more. You know let
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: me go to another woman who can just you know,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: talk some sense into you, gentlemen. Dr Bethany Marshall l
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: a psychoanalyst. I guarantee you she didn't walk outside without
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: any pants on. Let's just start with which makes this,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: which puts a whole another spin on this. Let's just
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: say she wasn't mugged. This wasn't a random drive by. Okay, no,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: And it's so strange because she's found outside, face down,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: nothing but a sports bra um. Somebody who wants to
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: be viewed online is being beautiful. She she fills herself
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: as an exhibitionist, is not going to go outside and
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: present herself to the world like that. I mean, she
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: not gonna want to be seen like that. This is
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: a beautiful woman. Something. I think something happened either in
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: the middle of the night or in that home where
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: she was either attacked or dragged outside, and um that
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: that the crime. In other words, the crime started somewhere else,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: started in the home, started in a car, started in
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: some other location, and she tried to escape and that's
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: where she ended up outside the house on the sidewalk. Okay,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Joseph's got Morgan. Now that Bethany Marshall and I have
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: schooled you and your forensics analysis of this. Let's hear
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: the rest of your thoughts. Yeah, we're not going to
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: know a lot until we're, uh, we're made aware of
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: what the specific injuries are. All we know at this
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: point in tom And all that they've released is that
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: there's blood, uh, emanating from her head and they don't
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: even give a specific location relative to her head. What
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: was really kind of interesting is that there was a
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: cell phone that was found adjacent to the body, along
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: with some type of green bottle as it's being characterized.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Uh so, uh, a lot is going to be told
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: by uh, you know, if they can tie back the
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: ownership of this phone if it was hers, why would
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: she be dressed like this outside or lack of being
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: dressed outside and her cell phone is there? Uh, you know,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: there's any number of scenarios that I'm sure that the
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: police are looking at, and they're playing this kind of
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: close to the best. Joining me, Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: out of l A. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert professor
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University and joining me Scott Kimbler Crime
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter Alan Duke from l A and Jackie
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Howard in Atlanta to you, Scott Kimbler, I want to
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: go through the facts again. Do we know what time
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: of the day or night her body was found? Fancy?
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Her body was found at actually five am in the
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: morning on a Saturday in this town, the miles south
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: of Birmingham. You know this is a murder mystery surrounding
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: a full time wife and mother who allegedly leads a
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: double life as an online exhibitionist with a fift a
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: month subscription website. She's found half clothed in the street
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: near her Alabama home, a very upscale neighborhood south of Birmingham.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Facedown next to her was a cell phone and a bottle.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: We don't know what the bottle was about. She was
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: still wearing a sports bra and bleeding from the head.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: For all I know, she was out jogging. I don't know.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: There are hundreds of photographs and videos on her page.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Did someone follow her home from her gym? Did someone
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: figure out where she lived? On Facebook? She appeared to
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: be like every other soccer mom, a mother of one
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: daughter with a happy marriage. We believe her husband was
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: in the military. We were not sure about that right now,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: but we do know that she's been found dead. Her
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: mother has made a public plea for the world to
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: let them bury her in peace. They I'm really hurting
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: for right now is the daughter and the husband. I've
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: got a pretty good idea, Dr Bethany. The daughter had
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: no idea about her mom, but her mom did while
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: she was at school. And overarching is the loss of
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: your mother. The loss of the mother her mother, and
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: in such a cruel and brutal way. And Nancy, as
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: you know, now, there's this huge Facebook community that has
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: assembled to try to crack the crime. And I was
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: reading a little bit some of the posts of this
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Facebook community. They're they're talking about her line activities, They're
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: talking about her being Kitty Kat West, They're they're wondering
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: if she was stalked by a fan. Now, in our
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: digital age, this daughter is potentially going to read all
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: of this. On top of the suffering of losing her
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: own mother. The mother's reputation is going to be drugged
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: through the mud, and the fact that the mother is
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: a victim kind of gets lost in the sauce. Sometimes
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: in these kinds of cases. So so the daughter is
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: not only missing, has lost her own mother, but now
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: her whole conception of who her mother was is something
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: that she's going to be working through in the middle
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: of her grief. I mean, it's such a tragedy, you know,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: thinking about what Bethany is saying. Because you know, Joseph Scott, Morgan,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: both of you guys know my children. They very rarely
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: got to see the hill In program because it's all
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: about you know, real murdering crime. That's a lot different
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: from watching you know, and murder she wrote Our Monk.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: But once in a while they could see certain segments
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: and they would say, Joe Scott, mom, why are you
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: so mean? Because it's completely the polar opposite of how
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: I am with them, believe it or not, I'm the pushover.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: I'm the one playing ping pong at ten thirty at
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: night on a school night, and it's hard for them
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: to reconcile just that. And the other day, uh, something
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: happened at school with a ten point subtraction because the
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: children didn't bring in a water xylophone and a card
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: trick for a presentation. And I got an email the
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: night before claiming because of a snow date, they would
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: be due on Thursday night, Tuesday. So I convinced them
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: they didn't have to take them in. Well, guess what
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: they did. Guess what the children said in the car,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: just out the blue, Joe Scott, They go, Mom, please
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: don't slit her tires. I'm like, Lucy, why would you even?
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: And so Lucy, we're not slitting tires because of course
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: we get caught. And there's cameras, j veillance cameras in
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: the partment. No, I said, it's wrong, but she sees
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: this on TV. I must have been talking about a stalker.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know what they saw me saying on TV,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: but she can't was having our time with just with
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: that to reconcile what she saw for twenty minutes on
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: TV with the me she's known for ten years who
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: lets her get away with everything, and it's now stuck
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: raising her guinea pigs. Okay, so can you imagine what
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: this little girl is going through? Joe Scott Morgan, No, No,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: absolutely can't, Uh, Nancy, And this is something that she's
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: gonna have to bear. Just like Dr Bethany said, for
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: ages to come um um uh with this particular case.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: As you well know, we've covered so many of these
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: over our time together. Uh. The reality is is that
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: if you have an individual that's in a domestic situation,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: they're married, they have close intimates, we always look at them.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: But there's another layer to this Nancy, this woman is
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: uh is on the worldwide Web. UM, with this imagery
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: out there. Now, whether it's perception or reality, there are
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: people that are out there that could consider her to
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: be one of their intimates. They could develop a particular
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: fixation on this woman. And as was mentioned earlier, if
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: any information leaked out UM about her location, where she lived,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: who she associated with, this adds a very sinister level
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: to this because people might take, uh, take this fantasy
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: to another level where they seek her out. So you
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: have to look in this particular case, not just at
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: the immediate intimates in her family group, but also these
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: individuals that she had contact with. And I would start
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: to tell the truth. With the subscriber list that we're
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: talking about, well, we also know this UH with me
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: is Scott Kimler, Crime Stories investigative reporter Scott. We understand
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: that the neighbor's daughter was up early that Saturday morning,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: going to work. The last time Dawn had been heard
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: from publicly was a seemingly normal Twitter tweet the night before.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: So the neighbor's daughter gets up to go to work
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: super early Saturday morning, and she sees Dawn in the
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: roadway and went back to get her father. The father goes.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: He says Don West was faced down, partially in the
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: grass and partially in the street. Does that mean she
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: had been out jogging in the early morning hour. He
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: touched her back to see if she was breathing, and
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: she was not. She was, as we know, only wearing
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: a sports brought bleeding from the head. A cell phone
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: was nearby, and a green liquor bottle was on top
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: of the cell phone as if it had been placed there.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: So this is somebody's staging a scene now. The husband,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: according to the neighbor, was briefly brought out on the
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: same neighbors call nine one one. We don't know if
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: the daughter was in the home, the little girl or not.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: So let me ask you, Scott Kimbler, what more do
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: we know in the search for a killer. The police
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: in Killara, Alabama, been very quiet about this. The media
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: has tried to question police about this, but we have
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: not gotten very many answers at all out of Police
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Chief Shawn Lemley joining me, also Alan Duke from l
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: A Alan, what can you tell me about meta data? Well,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of journalists who use Twitter to cover news
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: know that if you click in the right place on
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of tweets, you can actually figure out where
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: the tweet was tweeted from. Geographically, you can PenPoint where
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: she is when she's tweeting. And she was very active
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: as as Kitty Cat West on Twitter, so that may
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: be one way that a killer could have found her. Well,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: one more thing, Dr Bethany Marshall, of course you always
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: look at the spouse first. I have a strong suspicion.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if leaving the wife out
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: on the street would be the m O of a
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: spousele homicide. No, I don't feel that the husband is
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: responsible for this. And the reason for that, Nancy, is
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: that she was very public with this persona this Kitty
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: Cat West, which tells me that she was not in
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: an abusive relationship. Abusive men are very jealous, So the
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: profile of a husband who is this tolerant that he
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: allows her to have this kind of um, we're calling
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: it a double life, but not really. If she's tweeting
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: it out and she has followers, is somebody who's quite
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: um generous in terms of allowing her to have her
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: own activities and make money however she wants. So I
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: don't see this as a part of a domestic violence
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: or domestic homicide situation. I need to know more before
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I can pay it either way. But I do know
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: there are no suspects and there are no persons of
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: interest in this case. But I again emphasize what Dawn's
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: mother has said. Please give them your prayers and your
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: support as they go through the horrible time of burial, funeral, grieving,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: especially in light of the little girl left behind. If
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: you know anything about the brutal murder of Dawn Martin West,
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: please call two oh five six six three five zero
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: five to zero five six six eight three zero five.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crimes Tories signing off, goodbye, friend M.