Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Tot Mom Casey Anthony can’t keep her stories straight, machete man goes for tots in Walmart

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Tot Mom Casey Anthony can’t keep her stories straight, machete man goes for tots in Walmart · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
0:12
Speaker 1: one two. I don't give about what anybody thinks about him.
0:19
Speaker 1: For Mom, they never will. I'm okay with myself. I
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Speaker 1: sleep pretty good. At a two year old little girl
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Speaker 1: goes missing, a nation is gripped by the search for
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Speaker 1: the child, and in the end, the body of the
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Speaker 1: little girl is found just ten houses from mommy's home.
0:46
Speaker 1: Quite the coincidence, right, I'm talking about top Mom, Casey Anthony,
0:51
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
0:53
Speaker 1: being with us tonight, March eleven, p M. Grace versus
1:02
Speaker 1: Abrams on an E. Please join me. We bring on
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Speaker 1: witnesses and evidence that have never been heard nor seen
1:12
Speaker 1: by a jury, testimony that I believe would have changed
1:16
Speaker 1: the course of the verdict. With me right now and
1:20
Speaker 1: all star line up. Troy Slayton, high profile lawyer out
1:23
Speaker 1: of l A. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert professor at
1:26
Speaker 1: Jackson State University, crime scene investigator, Cheryl McCullum, WSB radio star,
1:32
Speaker 1: Robin Willinski, Ashley Wilcot, founder of Child Crime watch dot com.
1:39
Speaker 1: Meredison's HULO w f l A TV to break it
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Speaker 1: down and put it back together again. But first listen
1:45
Speaker 1: to Dan Abrams. You don't see how it could have
1:48
Speaker 1: possibly been an accident. Calley's body was found double bagged
1:51
Speaker 1: in trash baggage, and you're saying that could have been
1:54
Speaker 1: an accident. We knew at the trial that she was
1:59
Speaker 1: lying about everything. Do you think that Casey Anthony murdered Kayley?
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Speaker 1: That's a trick question. I don't say how. That's a
2:08
Speaker 1: trick question. You think straight to Meredith since Julo w
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Speaker 1: f l A t V. I was just in Orlando, Meredith,
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Speaker 1: and everywhere I looked, I had the twins with me
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Speaker 1: for spring break. Everywhere I looked, all I could say
2:22
Speaker 1: was Kayley Anthony. It just it's amazing to me that
2:26
Speaker 1: Todd mom, Casey Anthony walks free and at try and
2:32
Speaker 1: try to blame her own father, George Anthony. But just recently, Meredith,
2:38
Speaker 1: she gave an AP interview. They said, what do you
2:41
Speaker 1: think happened? Really happened to Kelly Goes. I don't know
2:43
Speaker 1: the last time I saw her, she was alive. Take
2:45
Speaker 1: a listen to this. Give me the situation when things
2:48
Speaker 1: went wrong. One of the things go wrong all of
2:52
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's like, where's Kaylee is? No, what I
2:56
Speaker 1: remember is being in bed, my mom coming in before
3:04
Speaker 1: she left her work and saying goodbye to us, and
3:09
Speaker 1: then waking up several hours later and moning hour two
3:16
Speaker 1: hours later and not knowing where she was. Well, that's
3:18
Speaker 1: not what they said at trial. Did she forget She
3:21
Speaker 1: claimed her child drowned in the pool and her dad
3:24
Speaker 1: threw the body away. Well, you know, Nancy, this whole
3:28
Speaker 1: case was built on Casey's house of lies. There were
3:33
Speaker 1: so many lies unveiled through the testimony that kept getting
3:39
Speaker 1: shot down. But unfortunately, at the end of the day
3:43
Speaker 1: a jury here in the Tampa area, they had to
3:46
Speaker 1: move the trial. As you know, Uh, the jury decided
3:50
Speaker 1: that they were going to believe Casey. They were going
3:54
Speaker 1: to believe that there was more than a reasonable doubt
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Speaker 1: to convict her. And those of us sitting here and
4:02
Speaker 1: following the case and watching it could see, Wait, no,
4:05
Speaker 1: that's a lie. That's a lie. That's life. So many lies,
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Speaker 1: from her employment to what she was doing for all
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Speaker 1: that time, the month in between when she last saw
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Speaker 1: her parents and then finally said that Kaylee was missing.
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Speaker 1: Everything she said as Anny than Anny doesn't exist, all
4:25
Speaker 1: of that, none of it exists. With Meredith Cincelo, You're
4:29
Speaker 1: absolutely right to Robert Willlynsky WSB. We went through every
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Speaker 1: single fact at that trial, and you know, Robin, let's
4:41
Speaker 1: start at the beginning. Hold on, I got ahead of
4:43
Speaker 1: myself for those of you just joining us tonight the
4:45
Speaker 1: premiere of Grace Versus Abrahams, and we kick it off
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Speaker 1: with new evidence and witnesses that I believe if they
4:53
Speaker 1: have been brought to trial there would be a different verdict.
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Speaker 1: And I mean that Robert Willlynsky w s B aren't
5:00
Speaker 1: at the beginning about how Kiley, two year old little
5:03
Speaker 1: Killy goes missing, right, Nancy, you know, we sat through
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Speaker 1: every day of this trial together for six weeks. I
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Speaker 1: can remember the start of the timeline when the prosecutors
5:12
Speaker 1: laid it out she was gone for thirty one days
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Speaker 1: and then suddenly no one knows where she is. And
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Speaker 1: Kasey Anthony, as they said a trial, she had more characters,
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Speaker 1: more fictitious characters that she told lives to the police.
5:26
Speaker 1: Then then Disney has characters and she was, you know,
5:30
Speaker 1: a NonStop lawyer. The child goes missing, and then it's
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Speaker 1: her mother, Cindy Anthony, that fine, her car is abandoned,
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Speaker 1: and they get the car out of the toe place
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Speaker 1: and she opens the trunk and she calls nine one one,
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Speaker 1: and she actually says, it smells like there's been a
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Speaker 1: dead body in the car. And what's another interesting point
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Speaker 1: about that. Let me go to Ashu Willcott, founder off
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Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com, juvenile judge an advocate Ashley
6:02
Speaker 1: here's the thing that was. I don't think it was
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Speaker 1: ever really focused on the car top mom Casey Anthony's
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Speaker 1: car was found in a toe lot. She, according to
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Speaker 1: the state, had killed her baby, all right, probably through
6:16
Speaker 1: homemade chloroform. Was there's a search on our computer for
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Speaker 1: homemade chloroform. The car reeked of chloroform. Chloroform was found
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Speaker 1: in her car trunk. I guarantee there's not chloroform in
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Speaker 1: my car trunk. And as the mother, Cindy says on
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Speaker 1: the one call when she finally tracks down the car,
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Speaker 1: it smells like a dead body in the damn car.
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Speaker 1: Those were her words. One As Cindy, the grandmother is
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Speaker 1: piecing together her granddaughter's missing, her daughter has been on
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Speaker 1: the run for thirty one days and the car smells
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Speaker 1: like a dead body. And here's the point. It's sent
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Speaker 1: a toe lot Todd. Mom had not reported the car
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Speaker 1: missing nothing. It was fine with her. She wanted that
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Speaker 1: car to get stolen because there was evidence of a
7:01
Speaker 1: dead body in the trunk. Hold on, take a listen
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Speaker 1: to this the nine one one call. Can you tell
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Speaker 1: me a little bit what's going on? My daughter has
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Speaker 1: been missing for the last thirty one days, and you
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Speaker 1: know who has her? I know who after I've tried
7:20
Speaker 1: to contact her. I actually received a phone call today
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Speaker 1: now from a number that is no longer in service.
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Speaker 1: I didn't get to get to my daughter for atom moments,
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Speaker 1: for about a minute. Okay, did you guys follow me
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Speaker 1: for a vehicle phone? Um? Yes, my mom did. Okay,
7:38
Speaker 1: so there's been a vehicle shone too. No, this is
7:41
Speaker 1: my vehicle. What a vehicle phone? Um, it's a eat
7:46
Speaker 1: pniacs unfire. Okay. I have deputies on the way to
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Speaker 1: you right now for that. And now you're now you're
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Speaker 1: three old? Was missing? Kaylee Anthony kay white? Female? Yes? Wait?
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Speaker 1: Female three years old eight nine five or day to birth? Yeah,
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Speaker 1: and you last saw her a month ago, thirty one
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Speaker 1: days from thirty one days? Who has her? Can you
8:11
Speaker 1: ever do a name? Her name is Zaneva Fernandez Gonzalas,
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Speaker 1: who is that? Maybe she's been my nanny for about
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Speaker 1: a year and a half, for almost two years? Why
8:27
Speaker 1: why are you calling now? Why didn't you call it
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Speaker 1: for any one days ago? I've been looking for her
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Speaker 1: and have gone through other resources to try to find her,
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Speaker 1: which was stupid. Okay, can you can you give me
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Speaker 1: the name of the then nanny again? Like sell it
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Speaker 1: out for me? Whenia V E n A I E
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Speaker 1: A rest Fernandez Fernandez Gonzalez to as she will caught
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Speaker 1: way in. Absolutely this mother was complicit. If she didn't
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Speaker 1: actually murder the child, there's no way. Given all of
9:01
Speaker 1: those facts and the chloroform and the trunk and the
9:03
Speaker 1: smell and the trunk and the trunk and the car
9:06
Speaker 1: and the impound lot, clearly she was complete. Hold on,
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Speaker 1: you said, if she didn't do it but was complicit,
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Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? What other sintilla of
9:15
Speaker 1: evans do you have that someone else was involved. I
9:17
Speaker 1: don't have any other evidence, but what we don't have
9:19
Speaker 1: is a cause of death for the child. So either
9:21
Speaker 1: she did it or maybe somebody else did do it,
9:25
Speaker 1: or how the child was babysitting and killed the child,
9:27
Speaker 1: and she knew and didn't protect the child and said, Okay,
9:30
Speaker 1: I'm gonna bury the child in the backyard. I don't know.
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Speaker 1: I don't have any evidence, but I think at a minimum,
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Speaker 1: she was involved, buried the body, knew what had happened
9:39
Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan joining me, forensics expert Joe Scott.
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Speaker 1: It was on her computer, the search how to make chloroform,
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Speaker 1: how to make chloroform, homemade chloroform. It was in top
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Speaker 1: mom's car. Cindy Anthony was at work from seven thirty
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Speaker 1: in the morning on George Anthony, a former cop, was
10:01
Speaker 1: at work that day. She was the one making the searches.
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Speaker 1: She was the one that had the child at the
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Speaker 1: very end, and it started with an explosive argument between
10:12
Speaker 1: her and her mother, Cindy, about how to raise the
10:14
Speaker 1: little girl. As we learn, the grandparents, Georgia Cindy were
10:19
Speaker 1: the ones footing the bill, working every day to support
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Speaker 1: little Kelly, to raise her. They were all living in
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Speaker 1: their home. They were the ones that loved to take
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Speaker 1: care of the baby, and Cindy and Tom them how
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Speaker 1: to fight, a big argument about how to raise the child.
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Speaker 1: Top mom storms out, Kelly is never seen again. You know,
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Speaker 1: she almost committed the perfect murder. The reason they can't
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Speaker 1: find a cause of death, Nancy, is if, in fact,
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Speaker 1: she did use homemade chloroform on this child, which is
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Speaker 1: made from household bleach, acid tone ethanol. It's very simple
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Speaker 1: to make and highly highly toxic. By the time the
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Speaker 1: medical examiner was able to take a look at this child's,
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Speaker 1: this little angel's body that has been decomposing over this
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Speaker 1: period of time, there's no trace left. There is nothing left.
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Speaker 1: It's not like she was shot. It's not like wait
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Speaker 1: a minute, I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Joe
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Speaker 1: Scott more Gonna. Which is rare. Yes, two year old
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Speaker 1: Achilles body was skeletonized when it was found in a
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Speaker 1: wooded area just ten houses down from the Anthony home Boy.
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Speaker 1: The killer didn't go far, did they, But there was
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Speaker 1: duct tape wrapped around her mouth and no still attached
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Speaker 1: to her hair in the back. Okay, that duct tape
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Speaker 1: was still where it was. That child's mouth and nose
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Speaker 1: had been duct tape and she was chloroformed. Uh, that
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Speaker 1: is very strong evidence of homicide. Joe Scott, how are
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Speaker 1: you going to prove the chloroforming because she looked it
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Speaker 1: up on her computer. That doesn't excuse me. I wasn't done.
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Speaker 1: And number two and her car and her trunk is
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Speaker 1: the heavy presence of chloroform and the hair that Cindy
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Speaker 1: Anthony testified belongs to Kelly. Yeah, just just like they
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Speaker 1: had the heavy the heavy smell of human decomposition. The
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Speaker 1: prosecution screwed this case up with two much. Ask what
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Speaker 1: the evidence was. I gave you the evidence of chloroform. No,
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Speaker 1: let me get finished. Now. Chloroform is naturally occurring, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: It naturally occurs in fungus. She is in an area
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Speaker 1: that the defense can say that that chloroform naturally appeared
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Speaker 1: in the environment as she's decomposing. That's why this is
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Speaker 1: almost a perfect Thomas fung Us my Rare and Cheryl McCollum.
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Speaker 1: I'm see an investigator and director of the Cold Case Institute.
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Speaker 1: Do you hear Joseph Scott Morgan has she lost his mind?
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Speaker 1: There's not a funcus in that truck again, love joke, Scott,
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Speaker 1: but I've got a disagreement it on this. I do
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Speaker 1: not believe for one minute that chloroform came from anywhere
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Speaker 1: other than the perpetrator. Could you explain to him why
13:21
Speaker 1: maybe he couldn't hear me. Maybe if I talk really
13:24
Speaker 1: slowly you'll get it. You know. I tried that with
13:27
Speaker 1: the twins and they go, Mom, I heard you the
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Speaker 1: first time. Why are you talking like this? So I
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Speaker 1: don't think that really works, sherl Can you help me place? Well? Again,
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Speaker 1: it would be different if she hadn't had the computer searches.
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Speaker 1: But there it is a black and white You're looking
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Speaker 1: something up and suddenly that's what's used in this crime.
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Speaker 1: There's no question. Okay, Troy Slayton, I hear you're chomping
13:51
Speaker 1: at the bit. Go ahead and tell me why we're
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Speaker 1: all wrong. The prosecution really blew it when they brought
13:55
Speaker 1: in the computer expert, Nancy saying that she had searched
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Speaker 1: for chloroform four times, just to have that expert skewered
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Speaker 1: when it turned out that the software that they had
14:06
Speaker 1: used was wrong and she had only searched one time.
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Speaker 1: As it related to chloroform used in the nineteenth century,
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Speaker 1: Can I ask you what difference does it make? Because
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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, you do one search about how to make
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Speaker 1: homemade chloroform, and then there's chloroform in your trunk with
14:25
Speaker 1: your daughter's hair in your trunk, and then she turns
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Speaker 1: up Dad, I mean, am I missing part of this
14:31
Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle? Again? Those are thoughts are easily connected for me.
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Speaker 1: V rode out in my mind. Whether she researched it
14:38
Speaker 1: what or eight times, it's just as bad, especially when
14:43
Speaker 1: you can tie it to the dead child in your trunk.
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Speaker 1: And I saw Cindy Anthony tom Mom, Casey Anthony's mother
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Speaker 1: on the stand trying to explain the searches by saying, oh,
14:56
Speaker 1: I was looking up chlora phil and some how chloroform happened.
15:01
Speaker 1: You know, that was the dichotomy for me, Robin Wilenski
15:06
Speaker 1: w s B. Because you have one mother they're willing
15:09
Speaker 1: to commit perjury and possibly become a murder suspect. That
15:13
Speaker 1: would be Cindy the height of a mother's love, sacrificing
15:18
Speaker 1: herself for tot Mom. And then you have taught mom,
15:22
Speaker 1: why did this day me and you believe murdered her
15:24
Speaker 1: own little girl. What a juxtaposition? You know. The thing is, Nancy,
15:30
Speaker 1: is that when you when you go back to that
15:32
Speaker 1: point in time, and we were both sitting in the
15:34
Speaker 1: courtroom that day. Cindy Anthony get into her head. She
15:38
Speaker 1: already has a dead granddaughter at on that day, her
15:43
Speaker 1: granddaughter is very much gone. And if you remember, Casey
15:47
Speaker 1: was facing the death penalty, so she didn't want to
15:50
Speaker 1: lose a second person, a loved one in her life,
15:53
Speaker 1: and so she took the hit and lied. I just
15:55
Speaker 1: want to say though, that some of your other guests here,
15:58
Speaker 1: the other piece of evidence that is just huge in
16:01
Speaker 1: this case is that the duct tape was from inside
16:03
Speaker 1: the house and those there were two matching laundry bags,
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Speaker 1: white laundry bags, a pair from bed bath and beyond,
16:11
Speaker 1: and little Kayley was wrapped in duct tape that was
16:15
Speaker 1: from inside the house and a laundry bag from bed
16:18
Speaker 1: bath and beyond that was from inside the house, and
16:20
Speaker 1: a blanket that was from inside the house. So you
16:23
Speaker 1: tell me who else could have done it? You know,
16:25
Speaker 1: another issue right there to Ashley Willcott, juvenile Judge Ashley,
16:32
Speaker 1: when rob O Lensky points out it's the same tape.
16:35
Speaker 1: The duct tape used to wrap around the nose and
16:39
Speaker 1: mouth of this two year old child was found on
16:42
Speaker 1: gas cans in the home, in the garage on um
16:48
Speaker 1: even on the flyers they used to put up Keiley
16:52
Speaker 1: is missing, help us solve the case. It came from
16:55
Speaker 1: the Anthony home. There's no dad out about it. I
17:01
Speaker 1: don't understand how that went sideways at trial with that tape.
17:04
Speaker 1: I don't either. So if I were on the bench
17:06
Speaker 1: and I heard all of these pieces of circumstantial evidence
17:10
Speaker 1: put together to paint the picture, I, as a judge,
17:14
Speaker 1: would find that or would think that the jury would
17:18
Speaker 1: find that she absolutely did murder this child. I question
17:22
Speaker 1: why didn't all of this evidence come out in a
17:25
Speaker 1: pattern to show and paint a picture to the jury
17:27
Speaker 1: that this mother killed her taught well, not only that,
17:30
Speaker 1: Troice Letton defense attorney joining me out of l A.
17:33
Speaker 1: In addition for the searches for chloroform, was a search
17:37
Speaker 1: on top mom's computer for neck breaking. I don't think
17:42
Speaker 1: that's gonna pop up on my laptop. There are lots
17:45
Speaker 1: of different reasons why you could get to lots of
17:47
Speaker 1: different things on the computer, you know, Nancy. There were
17:51
Speaker 1: fifty nine witnesses that the prosecution called, the defense called
17:55
Speaker 1: forty some odd witnesses, and after all of that after
18:00
Speaker 1: the jury sat there and listened for weeks on end,
18:05
Speaker 1: they found her. Not only did they have a hung jury,
18:08
Speaker 1: not only was it Why don't you address what I
18:10
Speaker 1: ask you? I ask you about damning computer searches, and
18:15
Speaker 1: all you can say is like a broken record. I
18:18
Speaker 1: think that's how you win cases. It's a Stockholm syndrome.
18:21
Speaker 1: You keep saying the same old thing to the jury
18:23
Speaker 1: till they finally just go ahead and give you a
18:25
Speaker 1: verdict so they can get out of there. They found
18:27
Speaker 1: her not guilty. Nancy, Oh, you just said it again,
18:30
Speaker 1: didn't you. You just said meredis cine Cilia. Let me
18:32
Speaker 1: go to a reporter on this. Another issue is at trial, Meredith.
18:37
Speaker 1: This is in your backyard, Meredith Cincilo joining me from
18:40
Speaker 1: w f L A. Meredith, I want you front and
18:43
Speaker 1: center in front of that TV tonight for Grace versus Abrams.
18:46
Speaker 1: It's not Grace and Abrams, okay, because we're not on
18:50
Speaker 1: the same side. It's Grace versus Abrams for a reason.
18:55
Speaker 1: Now back to the trial. George Anthony ragged through the
19:00
Speaker 1: mud an opening statement top mom Casey. Anthony's defense lawyer
19:06
Speaker 1: says body that George Anthony Molesta Top Mom. They also
19:11
Speaker 1: say her brother molessitor. I don't know the point of
19:14
Speaker 1: this because not one piece of evidence was brought to
19:18
Speaker 1: support that. When they say something like that an opening statement,
19:21
Speaker 1: you expect there to be evidence, nothing, nothing, not one witness,
19:26
Speaker 1: not anything. But back to that that day to suggest
19:32
Speaker 1: that George had something to do with it. Meredith, do
19:36
Speaker 1: you remember those jail house videos I played on h
19:39
Speaker 1: l in where George and Cindy are sitting there begging
19:43
Speaker 1: to ask, asking what happened, and Top Mom goes off
19:47
Speaker 1: on him. You remember that if George Anthony knew what
19:50
Speaker 1: happened and Top Mom knew what happened, that's her story
19:54
Speaker 1: that Kelly died in the pool and George just threw
19:56
Speaker 1: her body on the side of the road. Why didn't say,
20:00
Speaker 1: Dad tell her what happened? Tell her she wants to
20:03
Speaker 1: know what happened, Dad tell her, and that didn't happen, right,
20:07
Speaker 1: And from what I understand, George really was um, this
20:11
Speaker 1: hit him like a ton of bricks. Win right before
20:15
Speaker 1: you know those opening statements, jose Bias, you know, said, hey, listen,
20:19
Speaker 1: you're just gonna have to to take this when I'm
20:21
Speaker 1: about to throw out and don't react to any of this, uh,
20:26
Speaker 1: And and then he throws out this, you know, idea
20:30
Speaker 1: that George molested Casey, and and he basically had to
20:35
Speaker 1: sit there and take it just to protect his daughter.
20:39
Speaker 1: But as you saw, as you mentioned, throughout the trial,
20:43
Speaker 1: there was not much said about that, nothing said to
20:46
Speaker 1: support next And I don't believe that was even brought
20:49
Speaker 1: up at the end of the trial. It was one
20:52
Speaker 1: of those things that was said early on, nothing to
20:55
Speaker 1: support it. And from what I understand, there has been
21:00
Speaker 1: evidence then and sent then to indicate that that was
21:05
Speaker 1: a plausible situation within this family. If anything, it is
21:10
Speaker 1: this family decided they were going to come together and
21:13
Speaker 1: support Casey so that she didn't get the death penalty.
21:17
Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, not only did
21:19
Speaker 1: she not get a death penalty, she is free. And
21:23
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone here, not in the Tampa market,
21:26
Speaker 1: not in Orlando, anywhere in the state of Florida, believes
21:30
Speaker 1: that she is not guilty of this crime. And amazingly,
21:33
Speaker 1: when questioned UH in the past twelve months, actually it
21:36
Speaker 1: was last spring break, Chryl McCollum, because I was in
21:39
Speaker 1: an r V with the children, David and my mother
21:43
Speaker 1: who no offense. That little ladies six year old, she's
21:46
Speaker 1: weighs ninety pounds. She took up two thirds of the
21:48
Speaker 1: r V. Okay, that's a whole another, that's a whole
21:51
Speaker 1: another podcast. But Cheryl, that's when it happened that top
21:55
Speaker 1: mom is questioned this last March and asked what really
22:00
Speaker 1: happened that night. She goes, I honestly don't know Kelly
22:03
Speaker 1: was alive and well when I last hour, I was
22:05
Speaker 1: told she was fine. That's not what they said at trial.
22:09
Speaker 1: They said a completely different story that George Anthony Kelly
22:14
Speaker 1: had died in the swimming pool and George fished her out.
22:17
Speaker 1: Her the grandfather fishes her out. That is the apple
22:22
Speaker 1: of his eye. And he says, your mother is gonna
22:25
Speaker 1: kill you. You know you're gonna get in trouble for this.
22:27
Speaker 1: And he just puts the baby. No CPR, nothing like that,
22:31
Speaker 1: doesn't call nine one one. He just sticks her in
22:33
Speaker 1: the trash bag and throws her body by the side
22:35
Speaker 1: of the road. Now does anybody believe that nobody can
22:41
Speaker 1: believed anything this family has said? This is reasonable doubt
22:44
Speaker 1: by confusion. George did it, No, the mama did it
22:48
Speaker 1: know the work of the founder. Probably did it because
22:50
Speaker 1: nobody was not draw Roy Kros into this. The good
22:54
Speaker 1: samaritan that finds the body calls that's right. Though, you
22:58
Speaker 1: are right. The defense tried to blame him at trial.
23:01
Speaker 1: They tried to blame everybody. But you know, Cheryl McCollum,
23:05
Speaker 1: you're I'm thrown off. I'm thrown off. Where are you
23:07
Speaker 1: gonna be? Tonight Thursday March twenty nine, at eleven PM,
23:12
Speaker 1: will be in front of my TV set watching Nate'sy
23:14
Speaker 1: Grace take Dan Abrams to the wood shaded on A
23:20
Speaker 1: and E and I gotta tell you something. There's a
23:23
Speaker 1: live audience. Cheryl h I'm just so knocked out because
23:29
Speaker 1: it's like a jury. I listened at the vent at
23:33
Speaker 1: the Fulton County Courthouse one time to the jury deliberations.
23:36
Speaker 1: I never did it again. They were having a huge
23:39
Speaker 1: rug aspect there and I thought, oh, dear Lord in Heaven,
23:42
Speaker 1: they're never going to reach your verdict at this rate.
23:45
Speaker 1: They were arguing over the drink order. They were fighting
23:50
Speaker 1: over the drink order. So what I'm saying the studio audience,
23:54
Speaker 1: you never know. It's like with the jury, you never
23:57
Speaker 1: know what they're gonna say they're there theories, their questions
24:02
Speaker 1: that they come up with about this case. And guess
24:05
Speaker 1: who we have, Cheryl. This's gonna mean a lot to
24:08
Speaker 1: you because you and I have hung out at a
24:09
Speaker 1: lot of jails. We have an inmate that became taughting
24:13
Speaker 1: on Casey Anthony's best friend behind bars before she got out,
24:18
Speaker 1: and what tought Mom said and did behind bars? And
24:23
Speaker 1: I swear, Cheryl, if this woman had come on, I
24:25
Speaker 1: know she would have been beat up on Cross because
24:28
Speaker 1: she is an inmate. But if she had come on,
24:30
Speaker 1: I swear I think we'd have a different verdict. Cheryl
24:32
Speaker 1: from County right now, she's gonna be a money tree.
24:34
Speaker 1: I cannot wait. I'm telling you, Robin Willinski joining me
24:38
Speaker 1: W S B way in Robin. You know, I just
24:41
Speaker 1: think what's lost on this all these years later Nancy,
24:45
Speaker 1: this August, she would have been thirteen years old and
24:48
Speaker 1: her life as a young teen. You know, we we
24:52
Speaker 1: only remember that most famous picture of her that we
24:55
Speaker 1: saw with her big eyes and her big beautiful smile
24:58
Speaker 1: and all the little videos. But she would be almost thirteen,
25:01
Speaker 1: and for all those years, top Mom has walked free,
25:05
Speaker 1: walked free. Troice Laighton, Um, are you do you really
25:10
Speaker 1: want to tell me you're the defense attorney out of
25:12
Speaker 1: l A. How appropriate? Do you really want to tell
25:17
Speaker 1: me that you don't think top Mom had anything to
25:20
Speaker 1: do with her daughter's death. I think that the proper
25:24
Speaker 1: verdict was reached, the jury did the right thing. You
25:28
Speaker 1: can't believe in the rule of law and Nancy and
25:30
Speaker 1: not believe It's not what I asked you, Slaton, I
25:35
Speaker 1: asked you what you thought. I think that it's I
25:38
Speaker 1: asked you what you thought that she did it. I
25:40
Speaker 1: think that it's possible that others did it, and that's
25:44
Speaker 1: like pulling it too. How we work in our system
25:46
Speaker 1: of justice. You need to have an abiding conviction of
25:50
Speaker 1: the truth of the charge, and I do not have. Well,
25:55
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what did you say? I dozed off there,
25:57
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Excellent State University. You know
26:01
Speaker 1: I froze you out like five minutes ago, right after
26:03
Speaker 1: you jumped up and said that chloroform came from fun guy.
26:08
Speaker 1: I'm not ever forgetting that, Joe Scott, as long as
26:11
Speaker 1: I live, well, good, because I'm just heating up right now. Nancy,
26:14
Speaker 1: you're ready, okay? What do you What do you got
26:16
Speaker 1: for me? Yeah, let me tell you this. Two words
26:18
Speaker 1: junk science. The prosecutor in this case literally literally failed
26:25
Speaker 1: this little child, miserably, miserably. The whole d a's office
26:32
Speaker 1: failed this child. Just because you say the same word
26:35
Speaker 1: over and over, it is not moving. No, no, no, okay,
26:38
Speaker 1: I got some more words for you. They paraded a
26:41
Speaker 1: group of people in front of this jury, in front
26:44
Speaker 1: of this court, over and over and over and over.
26:47
Speaker 1: You know, it's a case of it's a case of
26:49
Speaker 1: intellectual laziness, prosecutorial laziness. They wanted to see how much
26:55
Speaker 1: stuff they could throw against the wall. You're talking about
26:59
Speaker 1: root buying, you're gonna call that real science. You're talking
27:03
Speaker 1: about smell test, You're gonna call that real science. And
27:06
Speaker 1: what they've done, not only did they affect this little
27:09
Speaker 1: child's case going forward, they affected every case moving forward
27:13
Speaker 1: after this relative to to forensic science. They cut the
27:17
Speaker 1: head off the cure of the headache with this whole thing.
27:20
Speaker 1: It's a total nightmare in a sham. Now, I'm not
27:23
Speaker 1: saying that this woman didn't kill her child. What I'm
27:26
Speaker 1: saying is what I'm saying is the prosecutors got lazy.
27:29
Speaker 1: They just decided to say, oh well, we'll just let
27:32
Speaker 1: science solve this thing for us. We're not gonna do
27:35
Speaker 1: really any real investigation here. We're just gonna let them
27:38
Speaker 1: use a bunch of big words. And they failed. I
27:42
Speaker 1: think they investigated out the ying Yang and Jess got Morgan.
27:46
Speaker 1: I appreciate that sermon you just gave me. Everybody. Easter
27:51
Speaker 1: is coming up, and I know where I'm gonna be.
27:53
Speaker 1: But Jess got Morgan, this is a yes no answer. Okay,
27:58
Speaker 1: one word. Do you believe top Mom Casey Anthony killed
28:02
Speaker 1: her daughter? Yes, there he goes. Try to like him,
28:12
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. I believe you're trying to interrupt Joe Scott
28:14
Speaker 1: just like I am. Yeah, but you got to hear
28:16
Speaker 1: me out. I'll try one. I agree with him completely,
28:20
Speaker 1: but for a different reason. What they did in this
28:23
Speaker 1: case that was brilliant from the defense side. You literally
28:27
Speaker 1: left there not knowing was this a murder? Did she
28:32
Speaker 1: die accidentally and then was disposed illegally or did somebody
28:36
Speaker 1: else do it? And we don't know the problem is
28:39
Speaker 1: they charged her incorrectly. If they had charged her with
28:42
Speaker 1: illegally disposing of a body. She'd be in prison right now.
28:46
Speaker 1: But there's no proof that baby was murdered. It could
28:51
Speaker 1: have literally been an accident by something she did illegal,
28:55
Speaker 1: so that jury was almost left with no toy. Well wait, wait, wait,
28:59
Speaker 1: let me under sand what you're saying, Cheryl, under your hypothesis,
29:03
Speaker 1: what is the what accident is that? Because you sound
29:07
Speaker 1: an awful lot like Belvin Perry, who's joining me tonight
29:09
Speaker 1: on A and E the judge. Well, again, she could
29:12
Speaker 1: have oded on something. She could have used the coloriform
29:16
Speaker 1: to make her go to sleep, she could have brought her.
29:18
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things she could have done. We
29:20
Speaker 1: don't know. She wasn't shot, she wasn't sad. Well, I
29:24
Speaker 1: can tell you this. I don't know what planet you
29:27
Speaker 1: guys came from, Ashley Willcott. You look up how do
29:31
Speaker 1: you make homemade chloroform on your computer? You have chloroform
29:36
Speaker 1: in your trunk along with your daughter's hair. Your daughter's
29:40
Speaker 1: missing thirty days. I've told you what happened when I
29:42
Speaker 1: lost John David, when he snuck away uh in a store.
29:48
Speaker 1: I went berserk. We had a whole lockdown in babies
29:51
Speaker 1: or us. But she went thirty days. That night she
29:58
Speaker 1: was over at her boyfriend's house, out at Blockbuster getting movies.
30:02
Speaker 1: Kelly was nowhere to be seen. She was gone already
30:06
Speaker 1: that night. She was dead. For the next thirty days,
30:11
Speaker 1: she carried on like a she which from the s
30:16
Speaker 1: s partying like mad and a push lebraun and go
30:19
Speaker 1: go skirt out at a hot body contest at a
30:26
Speaker 1: bar up on the stripper pole while her daughter was
30:29
Speaker 1: quote missing. Never called police, never told her family, never
30:35
Speaker 1: told her boyfriend. Nothing. That together tells me that the
30:42
Speaker 1: duct tape are on this child's mouth and nose wrapped
30:46
Speaker 1: around her hair still intact when they found the body.
30:50
Speaker 1: Was no accident. Ashley, I agree, But here's why I'm perplexed.
30:55
Speaker 1: Is there a suggestion by someone that chloroforming a child
30:59
Speaker 1: to get them to be quiet or pass out or not,
31:01
Speaker 1: you know, be as active, it can result in accidental death. No,
31:05
Speaker 1: there's no accident about it. If this child was chloroformed,
31:10
Speaker 1: then the child was murdered. That's what I'm arguing to
31:13
Speaker 1: Belvin Perry tonight. He has the same theory that Cheryl
31:17
Speaker 1: McCollum has, and I think Joe Scott Morgan has, that
31:21
Speaker 1: there was an accident she died. That's called felony murder.
31:25
Speaker 1: You chloroform a child or o d them on bena
31:28
Speaker 1: dril and they die. That is an act. That's a
31:31
Speaker 1: death resulting from a felony felony child abuse. That is
31:35
Speaker 1: death penalty material. Meredith sincelo w f l A. Where
31:41
Speaker 1: is Todd Mom now? So she is actually living in
31:46
Speaker 1: northern Florida. She is living with a private investigator that
31:50
Speaker 1: is associated with her former defense attorney, Jose bias Um.
31:55
Speaker 1: By all accounts, she is working with that private investigator
32:00
Speaker 1: to do computer history searches, ironically, to gather background information
32:07
Speaker 1: on folks who have been accused of crimes. And in
32:10
Speaker 1: her words, she is looking for the positive social media
32:15
Speaker 1: trails that people leave behind because she felt like we
32:20
Speaker 1: were only seeing the negative online history from her case.
32:25
Speaker 1: So she is trying to work with investigators to find
32:29
Speaker 1: the positive aspects of people who are charged with the crime.
32:33
Speaker 1: So that's what she's doing. She's hanging out there doing
32:36
Speaker 1: computer searches, taking photography, and uh, you know, by all accounts,
32:41
Speaker 1: laying low. But it seems like she's she's leading a
32:44
Speaker 1: pretty decent life um by all accounts, but you know,
32:50
Speaker 1: she really can't go out and and have a public
32:55
Speaker 1: interaction with people because she is notorious. Well, every time
32:59
Speaker 1: I see us, I to of her, she's out at
33:01
Speaker 1: a bar drinking, So I mean that's pretty public to me.
33:05
Speaker 1: To Robin Willinsky, w SB, you heard what Meritus is
33:09
Speaker 1: Hulo has to say. You know what we forgot? All
33:11
Speaker 1: about the tattoo, Robert. It is all about the tattoo.
33:14
Speaker 1: And you know, the book I wrote about the trial
33:17
Speaker 1: is called The Beautiful Life question Mark. And two weeks
33:20
Speaker 1: after the death of your daughter, you go out and
33:23
Speaker 1: get a tattoo on your left shoulder that says della vita,
33:26
Speaker 1: which in Italian means beautiful life. Are you serious? It's
33:30
Speaker 1: almost too much to take in Take a listen to
33:33
Speaker 1: this the verdict as to the charge of first degree
33:36
Speaker 1: murder verdict as to count one, we the jury find
33:40
Speaker 1: the defendant not guilty. So say we all dated at Orlando,
33:43
Speaker 1: Orange County, Florida, on this fifth day of July two
33:47
Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, signed for a person as to the
33:50
Speaker 1: charge of aggravated child abuse. Verdict does to count to
33:54
Speaker 1: the the jury find the defendant not guilty, So say
33:57
Speaker 1: we all did it at Orlando Orange County floor to
34:00
Speaker 1: this fifth day of July two thousand eleven, signed for
34:03
Speaker 1: a person as to the charge of aggravated manslaughter of
34:07
Speaker 1: a child. Verdict does to count three, We the jury
34:11
Speaker 1: find the defendant not guilty. So say we all dated
34:14
Speaker 1: at Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July
34:18
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, signed for a person as to the
34:22
Speaker 1: charge of providing false information to law enforcement officer. Vert
34:26
Speaker 1: as to count four, We the jury find the defendant
34:30
Speaker 1: guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer.
34:34
Speaker 1: Is charged in the indictment. So say we all dated Orlando,
34:38
Speaker 1: Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July two thousand eleven,
34:41
Speaker 1: signed for a person that's to the charge of providing
34:44
Speaker 1: false information to law enforcement officer. Vertic doest count five.
34:49
Speaker 1: We the jury find the defendant guilty of providing false
34:52
Speaker 1: information to a law enforcement officer is charged in the indictment.
34:56
Speaker 1: So say we all dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this
34:59
Speaker 1: fifth day of July two thousand eleven, signed for a
35:01
Speaker 1: person as to the charge of providing false information to
35:05
Speaker 1: a law enforcement officer. Verdictest accounts six. We have the
35:09
Speaker 1: jury undefendant not guilt. I'm sorry. We the jury find
35:13
Speaker 1: the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law
35:17
Speaker 1: enforcement officers charged in the indictment. So say we all
35:21
Speaker 1: dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July
35:24
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven signed for a person as to the
35:28
Speaker 1: charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer
35:32
Speaker 1: Veric doest account seven. We have the jury undefendant guilty
35:36
Speaker 1: of providing false information to a law enforcement officers charged
35:39
Speaker 1: in the indictment. So say we all dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida,
35:44
Speaker 1: this fifth day of July two thou eleven signed for
35:46
Speaker 1: a person Tonight join me on Grace versus Abrams, A
35:53
Speaker 1: and E eleven PM. Set your DVRs. Tell me what
35:58
Speaker 1: you think. Deny evidence and witnesses that were not heard
36:03
Speaker 1: by the jury, But if they had been, I believe
36:08
Speaker 1: there would have been a different verdict. How many times
36:13
Speaker 1: have I gone up and down the aisles at Walmart? Well,
36:17
Speaker 1: the last thing I expect to see as a man
36:21
Speaker 1: brandishing a machete trying to steal my children in a Walmart.
36:28
Speaker 1: But apparently that is exactly what happened. Special Guests joining
36:33
Speaker 1: me right now, Lieutenant Brian McGregor from the Kenner, Louisiana
36:36
Speaker 1: Police Department, Robert Willinski before I go to the lieutenant,
36:39
Speaker 1: what happened? Well, this guy comes into the Walmart and Kennor,
36:43
Speaker 1: I actually used to live in New Orleans, Dancy and
36:45
Speaker 1: have been to this Walmart. It's your standard Walmart, not
36:48
Speaker 1: that far from the airport. And this guy comes in
36:51
Speaker 1: and he has a backpack and and it's little do
36:54
Speaker 1: we know that he has a machete and paper pepper
36:57
Speaker 1: spray and he come up to a lady who's got
37:01
Speaker 1: her toddler in the carte, and he tries to snatch
37:04
Speaker 1: this kid, and then suddenly, when she starts screaming, he
37:08
Speaker 1: pulls the machete out and all on these Walmart staffs,
37:13
Speaker 1: people employees that come to help. And then the next
37:15
Speaker 1: thing you know, he's running to the exit and tries
37:17
Speaker 1: to snatch an infant who's trapped in the car seat,
37:21
Speaker 1: but can't get to that kid either because he's trapped
37:24
Speaker 1: in It's more than I can take. In. Lieutenant Brian
37:28
Speaker 1: McGregor with me. This guy, Billy Yo Boutier Herrera accused
37:34
Speaker 1: of trying to kidnap two children at Walmart while moms
37:40
Speaker 1: are in there with their children, not one, but two children.
37:44
Speaker 1: And then we find out the guy is armed to
37:46
Speaker 1: the teeth with a machete, a homemade ship or a
37:50
Speaker 1: shank and pepper spray. What happened, lieutenant, and basically what
37:55
Speaker 1: happened was on a Friday about two pm. You know,
37:58
Speaker 1: the suspect he united Walmart through the garden Center. He
38:01
Speaker 1: proceeded to the Delhi section of the store. Once he
38:04
Speaker 1: arrived in the Delhi section of the story, you see
38:06
Speaker 1: a young mother with her child inside the grocery cart. Uh,
38:10
Speaker 1: he engaged that mother began you can see that there's
38:14
Speaker 1: some type of altercation between the mother and that suspect.
38:17
Speaker 1: Some of the other customers just thought it was a
38:18
Speaker 1: domestic incident inside the store, so they didn't become involved
38:21
Speaker 1: at first, until that mother began asking for help, at
38:24
Speaker 1: which time an asset protection employee it was right by
38:27
Speaker 1: the door, saw what was going on. I saw that
38:30
Speaker 1: he tried to grab the child from the grocery cart.
38:32
Speaker 1: You know, the mother grabbed her child, immediately took cover
38:35
Speaker 1: with the child and began fighting with him, at which
38:37
Speaker 1: simed asset protection employee wound up, um, you know, engaging him.
38:42
Speaker 1: Once he engaged him, the suspect, you know, the suspect
38:45
Speaker 1: ram back into the meat poultry section of the store.
38:48
Speaker 1: Employees followed. At that time, he drew a machette started
38:53
Speaker 1: swinging in at the employees and that at that time
38:56
Speaker 1: they created a distance. And as he uh, they created distance,
38:59
Speaker 1: he ran act towards the front of the store to
39:01
Speaker 1: the Delhi section where another young mother was coming through
39:04
Speaker 1: with her small infant child, and that child was trapped
39:07
Speaker 1: into the seat at the top, and he tried to
39:10
Speaker 1: grab that child. And again you saw another mother fighting
39:12
Speaker 1: for a child as well. Um, you know that they
39:15
Speaker 1: had an also that was inside the store as well,
39:17
Speaker 1: police officer. And then, um, you know, the suspect gets
39:20
Speaker 1: hit from behind, pushes him forward away from that mom
39:23
Speaker 1: and altercation continues until it gets to the front door
39:26
Speaker 1: and they put him down on the ground. Now, when
39:28
Speaker 1: he approached the first female you know, uh mother inside
39:31
Speaker 1: the store for the first attempt, you can actually see
39:34
Speaker 1: him patting his right side that you know that he
39:36
Speaker 1: has a weapon on his right side. So that made
39:39
Speaker 1: any every indication that he was armed at that time.
39:42
Speaker 1: Louisiana police say a stranger with a machete tries to
39:45
Speaker 1: snatch children from their mother's inside a Walmart, and you
39:51
Speaker 1: know the mom's fought to the finish. Not only that
39:55
Speaker 1: Walmart employees jumped in to try to do their best,
39:59
Speaker 1: but it was when the at least show up and
40:01
Speaker 1: off duty police officer gets into the fray. And I
40:06
Speaker 1: gotta tell you something out to you, Cheryl McCullum, I
40:10
Speaker 1: hear bad things about cops every day of the week,
40:14
Speaker 1: no matter what I'm talking about or where I am.
40:18
Speaker 1: Open season on police, and you know what, I get it.
40:22
Speaker 1: I know there are some cops that have done horrible things.
40:25
Speaker 1: I know that, But here you've got an off duty
40:28
Speaker 1: cop taking on a guy with a machete, a homemade
40:33
Speaker 1: shank and pepper spray. What about that, Cheryl? He you
40:38
Speaker 1: and I know that there's a couple of bad apples,
40:41
Speaker 1: but they're bad teachers and preachers too, So you leave
40:44
Speaker 1: those folks out. That this guy came to do a
40:46
Speaker 1: lot of damage. She was prepared to disabled people with
40:49
Speaker 1: pepper spray and then hard them greatly with that machete.
40:53
Speaker 1: Not just one child, but two. But I would also
40:56
Speaker 1: recommend they look at his computer searches. That's gonna lead
40:59
Speaker 1: to him reason for doing it right there. Yeah, that's
41:02
Speaker 1: a question in my mind with me special guests from
41:05
Speaker 1: Kinder Louisiana Lieutenant Brian McGregor on the police department there,
41:09
Speaker 1: Lieutenant McGregor, any known motive. No, Initially, when a suspect
41:15
Speaker 1: was taken into custody, refused identify himself, he failed to
41:19
Speaker 1: cooperate with us when once we got him here to
41:20
Speaker 1: the police department. UM. In addition to that, you know,
41:23
Speaker 1: we know he's you know, UM had an ICE detainer
41:27
Speaker 1: put on him at the time of his arrest as well,
41:29
Speaker 1: you know, because once he's an illegal immigrant as well
41:33
Speaker 1: well it has indications that he is. I mean, what
41:36
Speaker 1: happens is, uh, we as a police department, we cooperate
41:39
Speaker 1: with ICE, and once we run an individual through the
41:41
Speaker 1: National Crime Information Computer System, which is you know, ICE
41:45
Speaker 1: will determine at that time if they're going to place
41:48
Speaker 1: a detainer on the suspect, and they actually put a
41:51
Speaker 1: detainer on this suspect here. We also know that the
41:56
Speaker 1: suspect may possibly have some mental disorders, but we're unsure
41:59
Speaker 1: that at the are good he can get treatment in jail,
42:02
Speaker 1: can you even imagine this to the one mom, one
42:06
Speaker 1: of the two mothers grabs her child as he is
42:11
Speaker 1: trying to attack them with a machetti, grabs her child
42:15
Speaker 1: and runs and hides behind the counter in the Delhi department,
42:19
Speaker 1: and the Walmart employees risk their lives to intervene and
42:23
Speaker 1: save the mom and a child. I mean, Cheryl McCollum,
42:27
Speaker 1: can you even imagine being crouched down behind the Delhi
42:30
Speaker 1: department at Walmart holding your child I'm sure screaming their
42:34
Speaker 1: head off. No, but let me tell you something, that's
42:37
Speaker 1: the very person just gonna, without question give their life up.
42:42
Speaker 1: So when it comes to a fight, that mama didn't hesitate,
42:45
Speaker 1: you know that, Nancy. Right now, Cheryl, police are asking
42:49
Speaker 1: anybody that has cell phone video to please contact police
42:53
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Brian McGregor. If someone has a cellphone video and
42:57
Speaker 1: I know that they do, what number should they die on?
43:00
Speaker 1: Because called me directly at five oh four seven one
43:03
Speaker 1: two two to five two. We know that there was
43:05
Speaker 1: individuals inside the store that video of the incident that
43:08
Speaker 1: didn't didn't become involved, but you know, we would like
43:10
Speaker 1: to have that video, you know, in addition to what
43:13
Speaker 1: we already had okay, hold on five oh four, what
43:16
Speaker 1: oven to seven one two two to five two? So
43:22
Speaker 1: we don't have any idea about what his motivation was, Lieutenant,
43:26
Speaker 1: We don't we know when he entered his store he
43:28
Speaker 1: had a duffel bag. I mean the duffel bag was actually, uh,
43:30
Speaker 1: you know, large enough to put a child into. So
43:32
Speaker 1: we don't know if that was his intent at that time.
43:36
Speaker 1: You know, we have a lot of them. Where do
43:37
Speaker 1: you think he's from? Tonight shows indications from Florida, but
43:41
Speaker 1: you know he's from also from out of country. You know,
43:43
Speaker 1: he did have a SO Security number, but you know
43:45
Speaker 1: it might just be a work SO Security number only.
43:47
Speaker 1: So that's that part of it is under an investigation
43:50
Speaker 1: by ICE. You know, we're dealing with what happened here
43:53
Speaker 1: locally and through our District Attorney's office and the criminal
43:56
Speaker 1: charges that we filed against him here. Okay, everybody, put
44:00
Speaker 1: on your seat belt. Troy Slatton, defense attorney joining us
44:03
Speaker 1: out of l A go ahead and hit me, Troy.
44:05
Speaker 1: I think that the officer stated the defense for us.
44:10
Speaker 1: This is a man who had mental illness, He was
44:13
Speaker 1: suffering from mental disease or defect to be pulling out
44:17
Speaker 1: a machete in a walmart. That's not something that a
44:20
Speaker 1: normal person tries to do. He didn't try and steal
44:24
Speaker 1: any of the products. Uh, he he didn't know what
44:28
Speaker 1: he was doing. He may have been kept up on drugs,
44:32
Speaker 1: although I agree that's not a defense. Voluntary intoxication is
44:37
Speaker 1: not a defense. But if he was so mentally disturbed
44:40
Speaker 1: that he wasn't able to tell right from wrong, then
44:43
Speaker 1: that is a defense. Well, he knew enough to lie
44:47
Speaker 1: about who he was. And under your theory, Troy Slightighton,
44:51
Speaker 1: everybody that commits crime would be mentally ill with at
44:54
Speaker 1: mental illness defense because what as you say, normal your word,
44:59
Speaker 1: not mine. Person would commit a murder or a rape
45:02
Speaker 1: or a child molestation. Nobody said normalcy is a litmus test.
45:08
Speaker 1: Insanity is when you don't know right from wrong at
45:11
Speaker 1: the time of the incident, and correct me if I'm wrong.
45:15
Speaker 1: But Lieutenant Brian McGregor, he fought with these people to
45:19
Speaker 1: get these children. He knew what he was doing was wrong.
45:24
Speaker 1: Just because you're fighting and your body is engaging in
45:27
Speaker 1: the fighter flight reflex doesn't mean that you have the
45:31
Speaker 1: wherewithal to be able to tell. Are you Lieutenant Brian McGregor,
45:36
Speaker 1: because it sounds like it's choice Layton, the defense attorney
45:39
Speaker 1: out of l A Lieutenant Brian McGregor. I'm gonna apologize
45:42
Speaker 1: Force Layton because he obviously does not know enough to
45:46
Speaker 1: apologize for himself. Lieutenant, the guy was let me see
45:51
Speaker 1: your note, Jackie. She says he was together enough to
45:53
Speaker 1: make homemade weapons. Okay. Also, he fought when he was
45:58
Speaker 1: going to get caught, and then he knew enough not
46:01
Speaker 1: to tell his true name because he knows he's in trouble.
46:04
Speaker 1: That doesn't sound crazy to me. It's that crazy like
46:06
Speaker 1: a Fox lieutenant, right. I mean, there's all indications to
46:09
Speaker 1: us that he knows what he was doing at the
46:11
Speaker 1: time the incident occurred. He went up there, I gave
46:13
Speaker 1: the first of other specific instructions, you know that she
46:16
Speaker 1: was gonna listen or she would die. She you know,
46:19
Speaker 1: he also threatened a child and so forth. And I
46:21
Speaker 1: don't believe the mental health defense on this at all.
46:24
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no doubt from what we see on video,
46:27
Speaker 1: and he was clearly aware of his surroundings what he
46:30
Speaker 1: was doing in those surroundings when he drew the machete
46:33
Speaker 1: on the victims. And so forth, and when he was
46:34
Speaker 1: trying to grab these children. So I don't believe that
46:36
Speaker 1: you're right. You brought up a really good point, Lieutenant McGregor.
46:40
Speaker 1: This is two pm broad daylight. This guy, Billy O
46:43
Speaker 1: Boudier Herrera goes up to a woman and her taught son,
46:48
Speaker 1: who was sitting in the grocery cart. Tells her she's
46:51
Speaker 1: going to die if she doesn't do what he says.
46:55
Speaker 1: The woman tried to walk away, but he blocked her path,
46:58
Speaker 1: gripped the handle of his machine Eddie, and told the
47:01
Speaker 1: woman that if he she did not listen to him,
47:04
Speaker 1: her two year old would also die. Well, you know
47:08
Speaker 1: what the mom did. She grabbed her son and tried.
47:11
Speaker 1: He tried. He grabbed the sun, tried to pull him
47:12
Speaker 1: out of the cart. The woman grabbed her son. It
47:15
Speaker 1: was a tug of war with the boy. She gets him.
47:19
Speaker 1: She's fighting with Boutier Herrera. She wrestles her two year
47:24
Speaker 1: old boy away from him and runs to the Delhi
47:27
Speaker 1: department and hides in the floor of the walmart. Oh,
47:31
Speaker 1: he doesn't stop then, Joseph Scott Morgan. He still wants
47:37
Speaker 1: that boy, but he tries to get another taught as well,
47:40
Speaker 1: possible motive. Joe Scott. Yeah, I think he went in
47:42
Speaker 1: with specific intent. Uh, Nancy, Why didn't he go into
47:46
Speaker 1: an open field and swing his machete around because there's
47:49
Speaker 1: no people there. He went into a place of business,
47:51
Speaker 1: like you said, in the middle of the day, looking
47:54
Speaker 1: to force someone to leverage someone, even with a small child, Nancy,
47:58
Speaker 1: threatening to take that child life if they didn't comply.
48:02
Speaker 1: What I'm amazed by here is that the police officer
48:05
Speaker 1: that was off duty, and also those Walmart employees did
48:09
Speaker 1: something that the police try to do all the time,
48:11
Speaker 1: and that is de escalate the situation. And this is
48:14
Speaker 1: a tough environment to do it in you're talking to.
48:16
Speaker 1: Everybody knows the size of a Walmart. These places are vast.
48:20
Speaker 1: This guy scampered away to one area and then another area,
48:23
Speaker 1: and they finally were able to tackle him and some
48:26
Speaker 1: do him. He went in there to do great harm
48:29
Speaker 1: to somebody. This is your old Walmart. You know exactly
48:32
Speaker 1: where the Delhi Department is. Joe Scott. Yeah, Yeah, I'm
48:35
Speaker 1: from Jefferson Parish. Originally started my career down there as
48:38
Speaker 1: a death investigator with a coroner's office, So yeah, I'm
48:40
Speaker 1: very familiar with this area. This is a high traffic area.
48:43
Speaker 1: You've got people in and out of there, and you know, look,
48:46
Speaker 1: people just go about their daily lives, conducting their business.
48:49
Speaker 1: Who who's gonna walk into a place and just expect
48:51
Speaker 1: it some uh, some person like this is gonna walk
48:55
Speaker 1: up and say, look, I'm gonna kill you if you
48:57
Speaker 1: don't do specifically what I say. How horrific is this?
49:02
Speaker 1: You know, Cheryl McCollum, Director of the Cold Case Institute,
49:05
Speaker 1: crime scene investigator, Cheryl, everybody is dancing around my question motivation.
49:11
Speaker 1: First of all, I can tell you it's not anything.
49:14
Speaker 1: Nothing good. There's no good motivation here. Number one, I'm
49:18
Speaker 1: wondering if he was not going to try to sell
49:21
Speaker 1: the children to get the money molest them. I mean,
49:25
Speaker 1: those are the top two things I could think of, Ryl.
49:28
Speaker 1: Those are the top two. What reads that people take
49:30
Speaker 1: young children like that is to ntom them, which this
49:32
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be the case. To thancually harm them
49:35
Speaker 1: and then kill them um or raise them as their own,
49:39
Speaker 1: which that doesn't seem the case. So nothing good was
49:42
Speaker 1: gonna come. And this person was uber determined to take
49:46
Speaker 1: a child because when the first one failed, he went
49:49
Speaker 1: to the second one. And I'm going to say again,
49:52
Speaker 1: even if those mental illness, he has not tried to
49:54
Speaker 1: hide his motivation. If you can find a cell phone
49:57
Speaker 1: or a computer, it will be there and it will
49:59
Speaker 1: be very With our special guest, Lieutenant Brian McGregor weighing
50:03
Speaker 1: in as we wait for justice to unfold, Guys, please
50:09
Speaker 1: join me tonight on an E March twenty nine, Thursday,
50:14
Speaker 1: eleven pm Eastern Grace versus Abrams. I'm so blessed to
50:20
Speaker 1: have landed at A and E and I want to
50:24
Speaker 1: thank you for joining me tonight. Nancy Grace Crime Stories,
50:28
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,