Latest / Bring The Thunder Podcast / IS SHAI’S MVP CASE STILL REAL?! 👀 JDUB vs CHET FOR #2 + PLAYOFF CONCERNS… | Bring The Thunder Ep. 39

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IS SHAI’S MVP CASE STILL REAL?! 👀 JDUB vs CHET FOR #2 + PLAYOFF CONCERNS… | Bring The Thunder Ep. 39 · Bring The Thunder Podcast

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You're listening to the Bring the Thunder Podcast, a podcast
0:07
by fans, for fans. Yes, you are indeed.
0:11
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Bring the Thunder
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podcast episode 39. Unbelievable round of applause
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for you guys. Shout out to everybody who has,
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you know, been with us along this, you know, year and a half
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journey. Can't wait to do another year
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and a half. Shout out to all of our members
0:29
for joining up. If you aren't a member already,
0:31
go to the YouTube channel, go check out the membership and go
0:35
get it. It's worth it if you're an OK C
0:36
fan. Definitely.
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With that being said, Sapfir is going to be hosting episode 39
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today. I have no idea what's up his
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sleeve today. So, Sapfir, I'm kicking it to
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you, man. Yeah, this is no rehearsal right
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here. Kind of a debate topics for both
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of these guys and I think we'll have some fun and you guys will
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as well. These are some probably pressing
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questions that a lot of Thunder fans have.
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But the first one is, is SG as MVP case still legitimate after
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the break once he returns? I think he's only got like a 10
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game window of missing games that I don't hope he can, you
1:13
know, stay healthy between that stretch.
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But do you guys think like a Cade Cunningham?
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I think Jokic is still eligible, but Kate or Luka, do you think
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they can make enough of a push going into the second-half of
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the season? Or do you think SGA will kind of
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hold on and we'll go with Jack first?
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If Kate Cunningham or Luka Doncic wins, the MVPI might stop
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watching basketball. It's not.
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I hope it doesn't happen. But yeah, the injuries are quite
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alarming with Jokic and Shy, but it should definitely be one of
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those to I put Jalen Brown before I put Kate or Luca, but I
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still wouldn't want any of those three to win.
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And I think Shay will win because he's not going to miss
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another 10 games such word unless he gets a real injury.
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But I mean, he had played the first 30 something straight,
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perfectly fine injuries here and there.
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But like, yeah, it's not really much doubt in my mind.
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And especially as we were talking on our most recent
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members only video, we now have the depth of Isaiah Joe and Gary
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McCain. We're just so deep that we can
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like expect that Shay's minutes will drop and we can run into
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the bench and hopefully the injury should go down once
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everyone's healthy so. Yeah, I'm, I'm on the Kid
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Cunningham hype train for MVP right now, Jack, I can't lie.
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And kind of the reason why is what you just said.
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Like, I don't know, I, I think Shay will be fine with the games
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restriction, but I think a few guys will probably miss it.
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I think Luka's probably going to miss it.
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Jokic is close. We'll see.
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I don't know if they can afford him to miss it the way they've
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been playing basketball recently.
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But I mean, Cade's there. They're the ones in the East.
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They have a really good record. And if SG as minutes are going
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down, that probably means the stats come down a little bit as
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well, just because, OK C with the way the team looks when
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everyone gets back, they should be, you know, kind of coasting
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through the rest of this regular season, even though there are
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some tough games still out there.
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I think, you know, like a game like tonight, Kade is playing
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the Spurs. If they get a win at home, his
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odds are going to jump. And that's just the way it goes.
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I think he's been really good, like really good for the Pistons
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this year. And if they continued like the
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record and, and, and the, and the stretch they're on, I, I
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think Kate's going to end up winning the MVP, to be honest.
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Yeah, I love both of y'all's talking points, but I do want to
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add that actually it was, you know, only really historic with
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his early numbers. He's at a mid season kind of
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bump and bruises here. You can relate it to the injury,
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maybe played through the injury a little bit, but even before I
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saw any, you know, hindrances as far as injury related, you know,
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topics go, he was playing so like himself, just not as well
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as he was early in the season. That kind of also led to our,
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you know, demise here. And also the team's success has
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been what's really been carrying him in between Kate and him.
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It feels like it's more of a race to who can achieve more
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wins as to where the I guess voters are going to vote.
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So Jack, do you think that because the voters will see Cade
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win more games that he'll end up winning the MVP over SGA?
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Even because we know these voters, they're not looking at
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as many advanced stats as we are.
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They're just looking at face value, who's had the better
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story, and that usually wins MVPS.
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So what do you think, Jack? I still, if Yokichen say are
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eligible, I don't see it going to anyone else.
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And I don't know, the voting kind of sucks because it's it's
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always one person maybe 3 months before the vote that says one
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thing. And then the whole narrative
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shifts. Like I remember when Kendrick
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Perkins was talking about Jokic and bringing race into the
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matter and it's always something like that.
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And the media, it changes so much.
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But I mean, Shay's done a great job of still being on top, even
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though everyone everything in the media will tell him will
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tell you that he shouldn't even be considered and you know, you
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should hate him. But I would love to see more
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media attention for Jalen Brown. As I mentioned earlier, like
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this is going to be the gap year.
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They weren't like Celtics were met a tank and he's made them
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competitive. Like what are they top five seed
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in the in the east? And I mean that's spring.
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It's him and him and powers like there's there's no one else on
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that team really like he's just been insane.
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So the thing I think. Yeah, I was going to say the
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thing with Jaylen Brown for me is he's been on his knees
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begging for an MVP this year. Like dude is tweeting every
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other day. I'm the best two way player in
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the league. If I was on that team, I'd be
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the best. No, you wouldn't, bro.
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You're not like just shut up already.
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Like he goes, he goes to the All Star game and goes like one for
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30 and it's fucking annoying. Bro.
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Every other day it's something on his Twitter.
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I'm the best, I'm the best. Shut up.
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Well, I don't really follow sweater that much, but I guess I
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guess you got to put yourself out there and advertise
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yourself. But I don't know.
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I don't think especially after when Shay comes back, we know
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his assist numbers hopefully will jump having Jared McCain
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and and Hisai Joe making wide open threes.
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So I think his assists will get up there.
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And then I mean, the scoring and efficiency is just way too, way
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too good for a Kate Cunningham or Luka Doncic to even combat.
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Actually, let's remove Luca from this conversation.
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He's he's replacing him with Jalen Brown.
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But yeah. I also think the voters, I'm not
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going to lie, I also think the voters see right through Luca's
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like stats. I mean, the Lakers are pretty
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ass. They just got beat up by Jalen
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Brown Celtics like disgustingly, and he's just not really like a
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winning player. I think the voters see that.
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Yeah, and I think the main thing about the media narrative, it's
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finally starting to catch up to SGA.
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It starts snowballing and piling up and I think that's where
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Cade's case can kind of be made best.
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But we're going to switch up the topic here and mention is the
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first seed the most important goal for the Thunder or should
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OKC prioritize playoff preparation and health
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management? So are we going to value the
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homecourt versus wrestling players?
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I got to hear y'all's thoughts. Joe, you're off 1st.
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Yeah, you got to value the homecourt advantage for me.
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I yeah, I for me, I saw it last year.
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We all saw it. OKC was pretty bad on the road
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all play offs long. They snuck one out against
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Denver, but they only took one. I believe they didn't take one
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against Indiana on the road at all.
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Actually, yes they did. I'm sorry they took game 4, but
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that they only took one against Indiana as well.
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And then Memphis, whatever. Memphis, they were down by like
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30 at one point, OK, and John Moran injury and we came back
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and won whatever. But I mean, I think it's the one
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seed. I think I want homecourt
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advantage all the way throughout the Finals.
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Like they got to jump the Pistons here too, because we've
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seen that they get a little rocky on the road in the
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playoffs, especially now. I know the team's a little bit
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different this year and everything changes, but I just
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wouldn't be confident going into a playoff series having to go
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into, you know, San Antonio or go into, you know, Detroit.
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Just get the homecourt advantage, fucking win like they
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did last year. That's all they have to do.
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Because if they do get homecourt, then most likely the
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odds are in their favour. I would say OK.
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Yeah, What do you think, Jack? I'm.
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I'm taking the other approach of health is the most important
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thing because we've seen the same in stretches without a
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certain couple players. And I mean, they got blown out
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by the Bucks by 30 points. So if you're not healthy then
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there's no point being the first seed.
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Trail Blazers could sweep us if we don't have XYZ on our team if
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they get injured right before the playoffs.
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And, but I think the other thing is if we're healthy, it goes
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hand in hand with getting the getting the first seed as in
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like you play them a little less, but a full healthy OKC
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team is just cruising like we, like we've mentioned a lot of
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times we healthy cruise into the end.
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And yeah, I, I think health is the most important thing right
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now. And I wouldn't mind being a two
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or three seed, have a full team, well rested, good health.
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I think, I think we make it easily to the finals.
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I think it's a tough argument set up here because, yeah, like,
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of course you want to be healthy, but a lot of that also
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comes with just being unlucky or being lucky.
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We talked about like the three keys to winning a championship
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last year. You need luck on your side.
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Obviously, you need an MVP candidate like SGA and you need
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defense. Luck was on OK C side in a few
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games. They were fully healthy going
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into playoffs. I know J Dub's wrist wasn't, but
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he still played excellent in the finals.
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He was able to have 40 points in a game.
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If you can't protect your players, like you still got to
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play them and you still got to fight for the one seed.
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Like, I know they're like pretty, I think they're like 8
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games above Denver, but San Antonio's three games behind,
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right? And they really want the one
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seed. They're young, they're hungry,
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not a big fan of them. But you don't want to give that
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up. You still want to be top dog.
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You still want to be top dog even in the Eastern Conference,
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because you know Detroit's gonna have an easy as schedule.
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They get to play the Eastern Conference, right?
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That's why OKC's record is so impressive to me, because they
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still have about a better record than Detroit and they're playing
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in the West while Detroit gets to play in the east.
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But you don't want like to give any chance to Detroit to get hot
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at home and almost all of a sudden you're down O2 in the
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Finals, right? So I, I think one seat is most
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important. And if an injury happens, it's
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just luck and you know, on being unlucky, that's my opinion.
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Unless you know you're playing a guy like 40 minutes a night.
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But OK, so you won't have to do that.
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Yeah, we're not in the mix. And before Jack takes over here,
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I've decided to add a little bit into the rule book here with the
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topics that we're going to have. These are subject subjective, so
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you guys can play along and, you know, vote for whoever you want
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in the comment section for each of the topics or whatever.
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But I'm going to be subjectively voting on who won each of the
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topics here. And for that first topic, I feel
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like Jack wanted it a little bit more.
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Joe kind of gave up on the Kid Cunningham responses, I think on
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the second go around. But since now we know that
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there's points and subjectivity involved here, Jack, I'm going
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to give you one last shot at this topic and then we'll move
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forward to grab a point. And then you can't, then you
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can't. So last little thoughts.
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Well, the element of luck and injuries is true, but I think
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when you're conscious about it and your goal is to keep
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everyone healthy in best shape, I mean, what the technology and
11:53
resources I guess he has in terms of health is next level.
11:56
So like a minor tweak or something they can nurse and
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they know like we can sit this guy out for a bit, make sure
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he's healthy, you know, and I think we have the luxury to do
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that. And if it means giving up the
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one seed, but being 100% in like the first week of the playoffs,
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I think that's that's well worth the trade off.
12:17
And yeah, I don't once he does cool.
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But I mean, when you get to the finals, yeah, I agree.
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But I think a fully healthy OKC team, well rested, good legs,
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they make it through the West easier.
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And then when they get to the East, then they can really tire
12:34
out. And I think it's going to be a
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different, different scenario this year with the way Isaiah
12:38
Joe and J Mack have been playing that the road games aren't going
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to be the same. Like, yeah, well, that's just my
12:44
thoughts. But but it is very, very, very
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dependent on J Dub on his return because that is up in the air
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because he was finally getting this 3 point shot back before he
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went down. So I just wanted to add that in
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as well. Yeah, you guys probably know
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where I land on the topic, but I actually think Joe did a better
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job on debating that one. He was making some really solid
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points. I wanted to pull out the why.
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Why do you think you know what you thought?
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But it's too late, Jack. I feel like there's a little bit
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more there that I could have received from the health
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perspective. But moving on, who is the
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Thunders true number two option? And I wanted to list out number
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two options on this team, but I think it's changed so much this
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season to the point where it feels like every 2-3 weeks
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stretch we're like, this guy's the best player on the team or
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this guy's the second best player on the team.
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We haven't had, I feel like, a consistent #2 this season.
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I'll start it off with like a Chet home run.
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J Dub. Obviously they're the two guys
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that we look at 'cause they're All Stars.
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But what do you guys think? Who's gonna be that number two
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option going in to the rest of this season?
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And who's gonna carry the Thunder when SGA isn't scoring?
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Can I get this? Yeah, I think you get to go
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first on this one. AJ Mitchell, Simply put, he's
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been our second option the whole year.
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I mean, with Jada being down and Chet's a great player, fantastic
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role player, but he doesn't step up in the way that we need
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someone like that too. But that's fine because he works
14:27
so perfectly alongside Jada and Shay.
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But AJ Mitchell has been a constant this year and I mean
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got off that hot start he's been on, I would happily argue our
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second best player consistently this year.
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And it's been huge. The ball handling the defense,
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like the defensive metrics are off the charts.
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We did that members only video about it and we're just shocked
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looking at that. Most the lineups he's in are all
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positive. His connection with Isaiah
14:53
Hart's sign is something else. And yeah, AJ Mitchell has been
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our best second option and I'm happy for it to carry on into
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the into the playoffs. But obviously J Dub will get
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those second option looks. But I think AJ might still be
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better than him for the rest of the season.
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Yeah, I love AJ Mitchell, but I'm going to disagree again.
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I'm going to make the best point I can hear.
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It's Isaiah Joe. It's Isaiah Joe offensively and
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This is why his last seven games and excluding the G League
15:25
Thunder versus Spurs game, he's averaged 19 points per game on
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56% from the 348 from the field, 90 plus from the line.
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That's without SGA, obviously AJ and JW, he's put the team on his
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back and kept them afloat. If you guys don't remember when
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these three guys went down, OKC was only, well, not only they
15:43
were five games ahead of San Antonio, they're still three
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games ahead and we haven't had our guys for a really long time
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now and that's really all thanks to Isaiah Joe.
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Even Isaiah Hartenstein was out during this stretch here,
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putting him back in a line with AJ.
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His outstanding AJ could have the ball in his hands.
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But we know Isaiah Joe has the potential to score more than AJ
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Mitchell does at a higher rate just because of the three-point
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shot. AJ Mitchell's a solid 3 point
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shooter. Isaiah Joe's a 43% three-point
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shooter. And like I said during the
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stretch of 56% three-point shooter, a lot of his points are
16:16
going to come off SGAJ Dub driving, AJ driving.
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But I mean talking about scoring in general, Isaiah Joe has the
16:24
higher potential to have a 30 point game than AJ Mitchell.
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Disagree and my rebuttal to AJ being more important is also the
16:34
clutch factor down the line, especially this season.
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If Shay doesn't have the ball on his hands, everyone has been
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hopeless. Like turning it over, too scared
16:42
to shoot apart from AJ Mitchell. That man will take the ball,
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he'll call for it. Give me the ball and RIP down
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the lane. Get to a 2 foot finish and they
16:52
always go into bank shot, whatever it is.
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Like he's he's been so confident in his own ability in clutch
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that I think that's where a real second option comes out is when
17:01
Shay gets double teamed in the last 30 seconds, the last
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minute. Who does Shay pass to?
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Like who do you want to have the ball in their hands?
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There's only one player, I mean, J Dub depending like there's a
17:13
big question mark random, but outside of J Dub, there's only
17:16
one player on this team that if they had the ball in the clutch
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and we're down one and Shay gets double teamed.
17:22
It's only AJ Mitchell that you can not be anxious with.
17:26
Like, you know, he's going to make the right decision.
17:28
And yeah, as an Aaron Wiggins, like #1 fan, even him, I'd have
17:35
some some discretion about. But like AJ Mitchell, he's he's
17:39
got the basketball IQ. It's just the next level and
17:41
he'll he'll make the right decision and a confident one.
17:44
I like your argument but I think I might have just won it.
17:46
Tab here and tell me if I'm wrong here because he he said he
17:49
has most confidence in AJ Mitchell and the clutch, which
17:52
has been true the games AJ Mitchell has played.
17:55
But when J Dub is back and Shay is back, I believe that Isaiah
17:59
Joe's going to be playing those clutch minutes in the offensive
18:02
possessions. Like when we need offense, it's
18:03
going to be Shay J Dub, Isaiah Joe.
18:07
It's not going to be 3 ball handlers.
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They're going to have to have shooting out there on the floor
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and the guy getting the shots when SGA is getting triple
18:13
teamed in the lane is going to be Isaiah Joe.
18:17
Yeah. Oh, man, that's a tough one.
18:21
I feel like you guys both did really well there man.
18:25
You can take 1 each. I think, I think that deserves
18:28
one each, honestly, that was just really well thought.
18:31
So we'll, we'll keep it pushing, but man, that was tough because
18:36
you know what the best point? Is right there.
18:40
There's guys we didn't even mention and obviously there's
18:43
like 10 more of them. So being an OK C fan's pretty
18:45
hype right now. Yeah, we didn't mention the two
18:47
All Stars, who I was hoping you guys would make cases for, but
18:51
that's fine. You know, our number two player
18:53
can be anyone any night. And for all the haters watching,
18:57
yeah, it'll be the ref some nights.
18:58
Screw you guys. The 4th debate for us here
19:06
tonight we got as Isaiah. Joe's recent hot stretch made
19:12
him a reliable 3 point threat worth keeping in the closing
19:15
line UPS. I know we were just talking
19:17
about the closing line UPS and this is going to transition
19:20
beautifully here and obviously we know kind of where Joe
19:25
stands, but you'll go first, Joe, where?
19:27
Where? Do you stand?
19:28
Absolutely. He's been, like I said, 56% for
19:33
pretty much a whole month now. So that's a pretty, you know,
19:37
good piece of evidence that he is an outstanding shooter.
19:40
We already knew he was, but he's been really reliable now with
19:43
the 56% shooting ever since the McCain trade and even getting
19:46
into the starting lineup against Cleveland, he goes for what, 22
19:50
on 6 of 11? He's shooting 56%, but he's
19:52
getting really high volume to which is even more impressive.
19:55
Like you could shoot 56% on three shots, right, but you're
19:59
not going to shoot 56% from three on 11 threes, 8 threes, 7
20:02
three. That's insane.
20:04
So he's definitely earned the role.
20:05
Like I said in our members only video, he's a 25 minutes minimum
20:09
at this point. You can't hide him.
20:11
He's also turned into a pretty decent defender. 5 steals in one
20:14
quarter against Cleveland the other day.
20:16
Hell yeah, he's reliable. He's been the best player on the
20:19
team for a long stretch here and I've never thought I would say
20:22
that. And I never thought I would be
20:25
catching myself sitting on the couch watching an OKC game,
20:28
screaming at Mark to put Isaiah Joe back in the game.
20:32
Yeah, I agree with that, but to some extent, sometimes simply.
20:38
But he's a bit unreliable. Maybe the game goes off wrong,
20:41
but I have to highlight that San Antonio game, which he started,
20:45
I believe. Yeah, yeah, because everyone was
20:48
out. He was arguably the number one
20:52
option, 37 minutes, 2 points, 5 rebounds to assist some games.
20:57
He's just out there and I, I will admit like this month has
21:02
been awesome. He's been there every every
21:04
game. But like in he's he's been on
21:07
fire. But to start his, not to start
21:09
his career, but start his career with OKC all the way up to
21:12
pretty much now, he's been rather inconsistent or beyond
21:15
for a week or two off. And so I guess it just depends
21:19
on that. But I would love to see a carry
21:22
on all the way through to the playoffs and onwards.
21:25
But I'm I'm pretty pessimistic that he will keep this form for
21:29
the the rest of the seasons. I think he'll he'll go through
21:32
it one or two more slumps and it'll be interesting to see the
21:35
fan reaction as well because I'm sure some will, some will be
21:40
asking to train him. Yeah, but at this point, I'm
21:43
pretty confident and I'd consider a slump for Isaiah Joe.
21:45
Anything under what, 46% from three at this point, just the
21:49
volume and the stretch that he's had.
21:51
I must say it again, 56%. It's been super consistent ever
21:55
since Jared McCain has joined the team, even the game before
21:58
the trade deadline. Because Isaiah Joe, you know,
22:00
maybe his name was floated out there a few times.
22:02
Maybe he got a little pissed off that they brought in another
22:05
shooter, right? And Jared McCain, which it would
22:07
be a good thing if he got a little pissed off.
22:09
And it clearly shows that something clicked.
22:11
That San Antonio game, yeah, not great, but his primary playmaker
22:16
was Aaron Wiggins and Cason Wallace before he turned up out
22:19
of nowhere. Cause Cajun's turned into an
22:21
outstanding ball handler and playmaker. 10 assists against
22:23
Cleveland, 20 points as well. But just like Savier said, like
22:30
we're going to have SJ&J dub as his creators and AJ as well, and
22:34
then throw in McCain there there too.
22:36
It's going to be impossible for him to really fall off a Cliff.
22:40
Like he's gonna be open, especially in the playoffs.
22:42
He's gonna be taking a lot of shots.
22:44
And really the only thing that's gonna need to stay consistent is
22:48
just the confidence. And I think it only gets better
22:50
when the other guys join the team because he's only gonna get
22:52
more wide open. Hope so.
22:56
So. You know, I, I am gonna mention
22:59
before we switch topics here, we're really looking at him
23:02
where he can have a consistent role and hit shots for us.
23:06
But the question really was, can Joe be trusted in closing line
23:11
UPS? I personally, I mean outside of
23:15
the debate here, I'm going to say that for this one, I'm going
23:20
to take Jack on this one, Jack's going to take this because I
23:23
need a. Shooter and a closing lineup.
23:25
You need a shooter and a closing.
23:26
One, I think we do need shooting, but one of the points
23:30
that wasn't made that I was hoping would be brought up is
23:32
the depth that's ahead of him, which is Lou Dort, Cason
23:37
Wallace, AJ. And it's just a lot of people to
23:40
leap, leapfrog when it comes to, you know, the last four minutes
23:45
of a game. I'm not saying that it's not
23:46
going to happen. And maybe we'll start seeing
23:48
sample sizes once the team's kind of more healthy to see if
23:51
we see that happen. But as of right now, we haven't
23:55
seen it. So just from like what we've
23:58
seen so far where I'm going to take Jack on this side of the
24:02
debate here, but moving forward, is Lou Dort still core piece or
24:09
has his role diminished enough for us to move on from him in
24:13
late game situations? Are we going to start benching
24:17
Lou? Dort interesting.
24:23
Jack, Jack, take it away. I'm.
24:26
Going to say yes. You cannot tell me that Ludo has
24:29
been better than Casey Wallace offensively or defensively this
24:32
season. And if I mean, I agree with
24:36
that. And if you do too, then what's
24:37
the reason to keep Lou Dorton on a on a night where he's made a
24:41
couple threes that keep him in? But at the moment, Kate and
24:44
Wallace has Simply put out play again.
24:46
But we haven't really got to the point where #1 we've had a close
24:50
game and #2 we've been fully healthy to the point where you
24:53
have to pick Kate and Wallace or Lou Dort.
24:55
So it'll be interesting to see what happens.
24:57
But I mean, we told me Isaiah Joe having it up here, but
25:01
Kayson Wallace's too, like like Joe said, his play making
25:04
recently has been insane. His like 3 points scoring, yet
25:08
that massive game with all those threes, it's been much better
25:12
than it has just all around his offence.
25:15
And Ludo has taken a step back and all those categories that
25:20
Kayson has progressed. And I'd go one further to
25:23
question Ludo's future on this team.
25:27
We're paying him a lot. And if Cason is going to do the
25:29
same, but he's younger, who do we keep?
25:32
You know, I mean, Caruso is the name you got to throw in there
25:35
too. All these, all three of these
25:36
guys are filling the same role for OKC essentially being, you
25:41
know, a lockdown defender and ideally making a wide open 3.
25:44
So yeah, I I could definitely see Lude.
25:47
Well, he's always going to start, but I think it'd have to
25:51
take a rather bad game for him to to not close out because Mark
25:59
and Sam are pretty set in stone their ways and their their
26:03
foundations. So.
26:04
But I it's a clear answer that Case and Wells should be ending
26:07
games over Ludort. OK.
26:11
Yeah, I think you make really good points.
26:16
I disagree in some in some points there like Ludort's
26:19
closing a game where we have to play against Harden and
26:23
Mitchell, no doubt Lou Dort's closing a game where their best
26:25
player offensively is 68, Jason Tatum, 69610, whatever he is.
26:30
Kevin Durant, like Lou Dort's on those guys.
26:32
We saw Kayson Wallace, he yes, he's been outstanding and he is
26:36
an outstanding defender, but he's really struggled
26:38
defensively on Sunday against James Harden's size.
26:41
We need to have Lou on the best guys and like, I don't have
26:45
confidence in Cason's great again, he's just undersized to
26:49
guard like a Jason Tatum because, you know, that finals
26:51
match up is going to happen one way or another.
26:53
Not this year, but maybe, but somewhere down the line.
26:56
OK, so he's going to have to play like Boston, you know, and
27:00
you need Lou to guard Tatum. You can't have Cason guarding
27:02
Tatum. Now, I do agree with you that
27:04
like he's going to lose minutes to all this offensive power.
27:09
But the question there was, you know, is he a core piece?
27:12
Yeah, he's a core piece because you need him is.
27:15
He a core piece for late games. Yeah, and for the late game,
27:18
yes, absolutely. Because if you need to someone
27:20
to stop oddball defense one-on-one, an opposing team's
27:24
best player and that best player is 60 or taller, which most of
27:28
the time they are even like Luka Doncic, it's got to be Lou Dort.
27:32
Cason could either sit or grab the second best.
27:35
Like if we're playing a Cleveland team, they'll both be
27:37
on the floor. Cason will grab the shorter one
27:39
of the two best scorers on the team.
27:42
But yeah, I'd, I'd have my doubts against, you know, with
27:44
Cason on KD and Tatum and and other guys like that.
27:48
Luca, just because I saw Sunday, James Harden, who's not the
27:52
biggest, he's a bigger guard, he's older, he's stronger.
27:55
He kind of gave him the work a little bit, especially on the
27:58
inside. So that sounds crazy on the
28:00
inside of the paint. So yeah, Lou, still a core piece
28:06
in closing games. He has to be if you want to win
28:08
championships. You saw it last year and you'll
28:10
see it again this year. Yeah, I mean, I I didn't mention
28:14
that it's game to game situational.
28:16
And like in a game that Lou Dort is, which he's had a lot of
28:20
times this year is like what over 5 from three a -14 on the
28:25
box score scored what, 2 points? You can't have him finishing the
28:29
game. And it could be it could be case
28:32
and it could be someone else. But yeah, if he's if those type
28:35
of games, he has to has to sit. But some, sometimes they keep
28:39
him in and it's quite frustrating because what are you
28:42
expecting to happen like? Yeah, we're we're going to agree
28:45
on that and I'll shout it out. Like right now I don't see any
28:49
reason. And I know this is kind of like
28:53
it is match up beats like high, high scoring offensive teams
28:57
with bigger players lose on the court.
28:59
But as of right now, I don't see any reason for Lou to be on the
29:02
floor against Denver. Like what is he going to guard
29:05
Peyton Watson? We got Kayson for Jamal Murray
29:08
and obviously he's not guarding Jokic against San Antonio.
29:12
They don't really have a three that's going to kill us.
29:14
It's Wimby, it's Castle and it's Fox.
29:16
I mean, you could put them on Castle, I guess, but there's
29:19
really not necessarily a need. But against teams with like high
29:24
offensive power, you're going to have to have Lou on the court
29:27
unless 'cause you know, on OK C, you know, try to go bucket for
29:31
bucket it, it's probably not going to work out, even though
29:33
it it has been recently, it's just probably not going to all.
29:38
Right, Joe, if you didn't include that last little bit?
29:42
No, I did it anyway. I did it anyway.
29:44
Just because it's it's true. It's game to game.
29:47
That that's perfectly fine, but you can see to the point
29:50
regardless, I'm going to have to give this one once again to
29:53
Jack. He's on a lead here going into
29:57
the next question we have got is OK CS defense better suited for
30:05
the play offs than their offense?
30:07
Elite defensive identity versus the offensive laws we've seen
30:11
recently. Can this defense carry them deep
30:15
into the playoffs, even for a finals run?
30:18
I believe Joe is first. Yeah.
30:21
So you said, is the offense better suited this year and can
30:24
the defense carry them again? I'll repeat it is OK CS defense
30:30
better suited for the playoffs than their offense.
30:34
Yeah, it's always going to be no matter what they do, OK C has a
30:38
legendary historic defense. Their offense has been good
30:42
recently, but I mean that's always been the sharing point on
30:46
OKC is can they shoot threes, Can they make their threes?
30:49
Can they shoot at a high volume, high efficiency, or can they
30:51
not? The defense isn't changing.
30:54
Every player on this team has bought in on the defensive side,
30:56
even the best 3 point shooters on the team.
30:58
But we already mentioned Isaiah Joe with his defensive
31:00
capabilities. Even McCain's playing his ass
31:02
off on the defensive side, undersized and just the volume
31:07
of defenders at OKC has the depth of defenders that they
31:10
have. Of course, it's going to be
31:11
Caruso, Dort, Cason, AJ, Chet, Hartenstein, Jay Will, I mean it
31:16
it list goes on and on. So yeah, I mean, their defense
31:19
is better suited and it should carry them.
31:22
That's where you win games in the playoffs.
31:23
That's where you win championships in the playoffs.
31:25
We saw it last year. The offense is just better this
31:28
year. But yeah, it's still a defensive
31:30
minded team, I think. Well, I'm going to argue that
31:33
the best defenses offense, because some of these stretches
31:37
we've not played great defense at all and we sometimes we've
31:41
been fully healthy. We've had pretty much every
31:42
piece and the defense has been pretty bad and you can't really
31:47
look that look to anything. And I'd also add in defensive
31:50
rebounding as part of defense, you know, the end of the end of
31:52
the defensive possession and that's been always bad.
31:58
And I think as long as well, we're always going to get some
32:02
turnovers and defense is important, but you're going to
32:05
have to make buckets on the other end.
32:07
And no matter how good our defence is, we've had games like
32:10
where we've turned it over, you know, done everything right on
32:13
the defensive end, won the rebound battle, but can't put
32:16
the ball in the hoop and shoot like 14% from three.
32:18
And this has happened multiple times this year.
32:22
And we've lost, Simply put, because you can't score.
32:26
And if you can't score, you can't win.
32:29
You're not necessarily wrong there, but you are just because,
32:32
and this is it like a lot of teams and a lot of coaches
32:38
believe, like the best defense is offense.
32:40
Mike D'Antoni did what Houston, Rick Carlisle did with Indiana
32:43
last year. But problem is Rick Carlisle
32:46
lost at the highest level in that's the NBA Finals to a team
32:49
that, like you said, was shooting like 14% from three on
32:52
the road. OKC wasn't Indiana, they were
32:54
miserable, yet they still ended up winning the NBA Finals thanks
32:57
to their defense, thanks to their creating turnovers,
33:00
scoring off turnovers, even in those games where we played like
33:04
absolute hell, we pulled out that game in Indiana game 4,
33:09
luckily thanks to our defense, it was a really close game, but
33:12
they didn't get to score high like a very high volume at home,
33:17
which they normally do. So I still believe that defense
33:21
wins championships and it's nice when you could have a
33:23
three-point mirage like we have. But I mean, OKC has still proven
33:27
that their defense is so high-powered that they were able
33:30
to take down the Pacers in games where they still shot like ass.
33:37
My my final rebuttal to that would be that you could
33:42
obviously I can see has the best defense in the league by a good
33:44
gap. Give them an average, the league
33:48
average defensive rating or defensive, whatever.
33:52
If we're still, if we're shooting 40% percent from three,
33:55
we're still winning games. Like our offensive upside is
33:57
just insane, especially now when we're like I said 1000 Times
34:01
Now, now that we're fully healthy, we're just going to be
34:06
unstoppable offensively. Like I mean, Isaiah Joe, Jared
34:08
McCain wide open the corner. Like you'd be saying.
34:11
I mean, we're having all these conversations about who should
34:13
finish games. Should it be Isaiah Joe?
34:16
Should it be AJ Mitchell? We have all these offensive
34:18
options that we're talking about.
34:19
And obviously like I value our defence and I can agree that
34:25
defence was championships, but I don't think we need the like the
34:30
current defense we have is just like insane and it could be
34:33
worse and our offense could be better and we would still win.
34:37
Yeah, I mean if our. Offense is better than our
34:39
defense. Yeah, it's it's a good argument
34:41
I. I got to cut it off here I.
34:43
Got I got one last sentence real quick.
34:45
One last sentence that's crazy crazy.
34:48
You both have. You both have had.
34:50
Equal opportunity here. I got to, I got to keep it, keep
34:53
it fair in terms of how much both you guys get to talk on
34:56
each topic. I've decided on a winner on this
35:00
and regardless of you not getting your point in there at
35:03
the end, Joe, I still thought you did better on this debate.
35:07
Jack, you kind of lost me at the end there mentioning that we
35:11
could still win as many games if we became like a middle tier
35:17
defense. And I just simply disagree
35:19
because we'd be more like the Spurs Lake, not Lakers, Pistons,
35:24
pretty much the teams that are kind of, I would say 1 tier
35:28
below us. Yeah, they they are winning
35:31
games, but I just don't think they're winning at the level
35:33
that we are, even without the level of offensive inconsistency
35:37
we've seen up until this specific point in the season.
35:40
So I just got to simply disagree on that.
35:43
And the main reason is neither you guys brought up, we have
35:47
MVPSGA leading the offense. So I don't think it matters
35:50
trying to put around them anyways.
35:54
We're going to keep it pushing here with Joe getting that point
35:58
back. Currently, Jack is leading with
36:01
one point going into this. Next topic is this.
36:03
The fire one can I tie here and that's it.
36:06
No, no, we've got we got a couple more to go, but which
36:10
Western Conference team is the real biggest threat to this
36:15
Thunder team? Nuggets, Spurs or Pistons?
36:20
Take your pick, Jack. You will start first.
36:24
Western Conference, Tim's. Yes.
36:28
Nugget, Spurs or Nuggets? Nuggets Well, well, you also
36:32
have, well, just in general, like whatever team you want to
36:36
choose as the real biggest threat.
36:37
I threw in the Pistons in there 'cause I think they're the only
36:40
other real threat, but you can choose.
36:43
Yeah, yeah, between all the three, three big threats here.
36:51
Fully healthy, I don't really see a threat, but I'm going to
36:54
go and argue for the San Antonio Spurs case.
36:57
But he came to have a number that many times this season.
37:00
And I mean the last one last game against them seemed pretty
37:04
hopeful almost beating them with five players.
37:06
But when they're on and they're role players making their
37:09
threes, Harrison Barnes is making his threes.
37:12
I mean it's something else and the the ability when he has to
37:16
stop any movement towards the paint, which is something we
37:19
figured out when me and Joe was in OK C and that's why we won
37:22
that game. But if like the defence game to
37:26
game, because when Wendy's in there really disrupting things
37:30
and you have a drive heavy initiators of the offense in AJ
37:34
Mitchell, J Dub and Shay, they all need to get downhill, yeah,
37:39
then there's no need for help defence the the rotations away
37:42
CRISPR and I mean our three foot shooting is better now, but with
37:47
a hand up it's it falls way back.
37:51
You don't get the same looks that you got against other teams
37:53
where we're penetrating the the paint so much that the wide open
37:57
shots for well get created at the least.
38:00
Like I don't think we're going to have as many wide open shots.
38:03
And then I mean, they match us more than they don't match us,
38:07
but they, they pick up the the defense a lot.
38:11
And I mean, there's definitely some psychological element to
38:16
playing the Spurs. And it would definitely present
38:19
itself in a West Conference final or second round or
38:23
whatever, because you could see someone, some of the games we
38:25
played them this season, especially the, the Christmas 1,
38:28
I believe that was one that I, that Alex Cruso went like over
38:31
10 for like all the guys just seemed a bit rattled.
38:34
And the Spurs definitely hit the psychological advantage over
38:37
them. And I think just it affected how
38:40
they they shot, how everything they did in the back of their
38:44
mind, the Spurs had had the money games.
38:48
So that'll be safe to see. Yeah, Fairpoint, I'm still going
38:52
Denver for multiple reasons that sorry, the Spurs have a few
38:57
holes left to pull. I think OK, C kind of figured
39:00
them out in that game at home. We kind of destroyed them at
39:04
home and then we obviously lost the last one, but it was our G
39:06
League and now you had the shooting capability to that OK C
39:10
team and a little bit extra health as well there.
39:14
I'm not necessarily worried about them because with the
39:16
Nuggets 1 Nicole Yokich clears Wenby, they always, you always
39:22
don't want to play the, you know, best or second best player
39:25
in the world is just not ideal, right?
39:26
So I'd rather play the Spurs for that reason.
39:28
I'd rather play the Spurs because I think Jokic's
39:31
surrounding cast is actually better and it's going to be
39:33
better in the playoffs as well if they're fully healthy.
39:37
I think, you know, Jamal Murray is better than anyone else on
39:40
the Spurs. I also think that Aaron Gordon
39:42
might be better than anyone else on the Spurs.
39:44
I think Aaron Gordon as a, you know, as a sidekick is better
39:48
than the Aaron Fox and more effective honestly, especially
39:51
against the Thunder. I guess the Thunder, especially
39:53
Aaron Gordon is a match up nightmare.
39:55
He's a three-point shooter against the Thunder he can bang
39:58
inside. And then the inexperience, which
40:02
they don't have it all. They were trying to call the
40:04
Thunder inexperience last year, but they forget the Thunder were
40:07
in the second round the year before that and they were one
40:09
game away from having a game seven in the second round
40:12
against The Mavericks. It's supposed to have nothing.
40:15
And I also am very curious to see like.
40:17
How say it is a Western Conference finals match up.
40:21
How is Wemby looking when it's time for the Western Conference
40:24
finals? Because if they have two long
40:26
series before that, does he slow down?
40:30
Does he not? Curious to see.
40:31
But yeah, I think Denver still is, you know, the nightmare
40:35
scenario. I'd rather play San Antonio.
40:38
Yeah, I think it just depends on what you prefer OKC to be
40:43
affected on because obviously Denver brings more offense.
40:47
Like I get obviously Yokich is a better player than Wembe, but
40:50
Wembe's defensive impact is insane.
40:53
Yokich has a negative defensive impact.
40:56
So I guess it just depends whether you back OKC to to take
41:00
a hit on offense and play good defence or take a hit on
41:02
defence, play good offense. And I think, yeah, I, this
41:08
team's already struggled enough offensively this year that I'd
41:11
rather than, yeah, the opposite way around and just yeah, give
41:16
me the Spurs because I think, yeah, I'm sorry, don't give me
41:21
the Spurs, give me someone else. But the Spurs are definitely or
41:24
give me the Spurs, the biggest, the biggest challenge because, I
41:28
mean, they've had our number like it's it's obvious that they
41:32
can't can beat us. There's there are factors, but
41:37
at the end of the day, I don't think anyone's actually beating
41:39
us, but I I would beg the Spurs to take us to more games than
41:42
the Nuggets, especially this season.
41:44
Yeah, I'd rather also just not play against Yokich's foul
41:47
beating. We saw it in the playoffs last
41:49
year. It's miserable to watch.
41:50
It's a foul every other play. I mean, he'll get it too.
41:52
Like he it's smart because he he gets to call.
41:55
I'm not like blaming him for that.
41:57
And then you also add, you know, maybe we are a little bit better
42:01
offensively than last year, but I think Denver will be too as
42:05
the time, you know, as the playoffs come around because you
42:07
also add, you know, Peyton Watson has really stepped it up
42:10
another level this year. And we still have yet to see Cam
42:14
Johnson really glue into this team because of the the injuries
42:17
that they've had. But if they do glue at the right
42:19
time, they're, you know, absolutely right there with OK
42:22
CI. Think they took him to seven
42:24
last year. I think they easily can again
42:26
this year if OK CS not making their shots, the Spurs, you
42:28
could kind of get around it. Guys like Julian Champeni,
42:33
Harrison Barnes, even their rookie Dylan Harper are not
42:36
necessarily worried about in the playoffs.
42:38
Be more worried about Jamal Murray popping off out of
42:41
nowhere. Aaron Gordon, Peyton Watson,
42:44
obviously, but Jokic, because he creates.
42:45
Wendy's a good defender. He doesn't create offense.
42:48
He's kind of just tall and I think you could take him out of
42:51
the game easier than a lot of those other players that I
42:53
mentioned. All right.
42:56
Great closing remarks there. That's what I was looking for
42:59
was the direct debate between offense and defense and Jack
43:02
kind of brought it up and I was going to see if Joe would have
43:05
some good talking points back. And I am going to give this
43:08
point to Joe going into our final question debate topic
43:13
here. Jack's put up a heck of a fight
43:16
on the previous two points and Joe's kind of returned here.
43:20
But last question, I think Jack will be leading this one, if I'm
43:24
not mistaken. Should the Thunder be more
43:27
aggressive? Go ahead.
43:29
I think I am right, Jack. Didn't you go last?
43:33
Yeah, I believe so. OK, perfect.
43:35
I appreciate that. Yeah, Joe, you can go next.
43:37
But the question is should the Thunder be more aggressive with
43:40
rotations or stick with an 8 man traditional rotation?
43:45
So we're essentially talking about shortening it for the
43:48
playoff. Are we going to trust the depth
43:51
or not going into the playoffs? And that's actually the best
43:54
question we can end this off with.
43:56
So go ahead, Joe. And I like how you did that
43:58
because I know your stance on it.
43:59
But I'm going to argue a point that's going to try to make you
44:02
change your mind, which honestly might not be the best idea for
44:05
me to end it here, but I'm going to do it anyway.
44:08
Based on me, just go based on what you.
44:09
Think I'm going to do it anyway because this is what I believe
44:11
as of right now. It's rotation based.
44:14
It's game to game based. Do not limit the rotation to 8
44:18
players. You can limit it to 8 at the end
44:21
of the game, even 6 if you want. Right, but we saw last year OKC
44:27
was stuck in their ways in the beginning of that Pacer series.
44:31
Mark Dagnell actually ended up figuring it out.
44:33
He ended up starting Kasen Wallace and then he also ended
44:36
up starting Alex Caruso in the second-half of those games.
44:38
If you guys don't remember that he would take Hardenstein out
44:41
and put him on the bench for Caruso's defensive flexibility
44:43
on the offensive end. It has to be it has to be an
44:48
open minded rotation game to game, you know, match up to
44:52
match up, because OK, C just has way too much talent team,
44:55
though, it's true. Obviously you can keep your your
44:59
you know, three guys in there, J dub SGH at anytime in the game,
45:05
but at at some points you're going to need McCain and Joe out
45:07
there at the same time. At some points you're not going
45:09
to be able to afford to own, you know, have both them at the same
45:12
time and and limit your defense. You can only have one.
45:15
At some point you're going to need to have full defensive line
45:18
up against the maybe the Nuggets and you have to go, you know,
45:21
Cason, J Dub, AJ Mitchell, Chet and Hartnstein.
45:25
At some point, maybe, maybe Lou, you know, Caruso, whatever.
45:29
It's going to be game to game. It's going to be match up to
45:31
match up. And I'd argue that if they do
45:34
stick with their gut and go with their eight man rotation,
45:37
they're limiting themselves offensively, defensively and
45:41
they're lessening their chance for another championship.
45:44
Alright, Jack, take it away. Well.
45:46
I'm just going to go ahead and forfeit because I agree solely
45:50
with that and. You know, if you make an
45:52
argument, we can go 11 here, you know.
45:55
OK, well my argument would be that we have so many players
45:58
that do so many individual things and that you just have to
46:04
give them all at least 4 or 5 minutes in the game to see if
46:07
they've got to bring that spark to the game.
46:09
And if they do, then you keep playing them.
46:11
If they don't, then you can choose that way, but you can't
46:14
predetermine whether you're going to play Aaron Wiggins,
46:16
Isaiah Joe, Kenrich Williams, Like Kenrich Williams can come
46:19
into any given game and turn the whole tide and just win the game
46:23
pretty much solely by himself. That's why we call him Kenny
46:26
Hassel. But then some games he won't
46:28
make as big of an impact. Some games you could argue Aaron
46:31
Wiggins should be, should be closing the game.
46:33
But you don't know until until you give him a couple minutes,
46:36
see if he's if it's his night. Because we are so deep to the
46:40
point where we have so many different players that can do
46:44
different things but also overlap and do some of the
46:46
similar needs that we need when we're ending the game, that it
46:51
it's just depending on whose night it is, the matchups,
46:54
there's so many different things that go into it.
46:56
And that's just the beauty of this OKC Thunder team is that we
46:59
have an answer for pretty much everything so.
47:01
Another, yeah, another point. To our point, let's see how
47:05
we're closing it out together. Closing, closing it out
47:07
together. Here is.
47:08
This is this is ridiculous. Pull the Uno reverse on me.
47:11
No, this is this is perfect. I mean, I mean, this really
47:17
answers the question itself in one sentence here.
47:21
If they were to make an 8 man rotation, I'm not necessarily
47:23
sure if Jay will makes the cut. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't,
47:26
right? It's just hypothetical.
47:28
But if you're playing Denver and and and Wenbanama, the Spurs,
47:32
you know it makes the cut because we know that Mark likes
47:35
to match them up with Jokic and we know that Mark likes to match
47:37
them up with Victor. We saw it happen and we saw it
47:40
be effective. So in other matchups, maybe not,
47:43
but in those two matchups we'll see him on the floor.
47:46
OK. I appreciate you guys trying to
47:49
split the point here. I'm giving you both negative
47:52
points. Here I knew you were going to go
47:54
negative. Yeah, this negative points here
47:56
for these guys. I'm still sticking with the
47:58
traditional eight men. You can't mess around in the
48:03
play offs. You can go in with a
48:05
predetermined plan based on the team that you're playing against
48:09
game to game, but you should know who The Who the guys are
48:12
for that game that you're going to be trusting.
48:15
Yeah, you can lob in 5 to 6 minutes here and there for
48:19
situational stuff, but I don't really count that as far as the
48:22
traditional eight people that are going to be on the court the
48:25
most impacting the game. And I still think that works for
48:30
the most part. When it comes to a playoff run,
48:33
I haven't seen that disproven. Maybe this season it could be
48:37
with the level of talent and depth, but we didn't see that
48:41
last playoffs and maybe we will this time around.
48:44
But I haven't seen that in forever.
48:47
So there's been maybe four or five teams ever in history that
48:51
have kind of really explored into their depths the further
48:55
they went into the playoffs. You like to make one last sense,
48:59
convince you, convince you one more time.
49:02
You haven't. You haven't seen it because I
49:04
don't think you've seen a team as deep as the OKC Thunder this
49:06
year. Exactly.
49:07
Exactly. And that that is, that is a
49:09
fairpoint. And that's pretty much what I'm
49:11
saying. Like I haven't seen it until
49:13
this year. If we should decide to go in
49:14
that direction. I just don't think going in that
49:17
direction leads you to winning a championship.
49:20
I tried. So but that's where we'll end it
49:23
off. Both these guys tied on points.
49:25
Hopefully you guys enjoyed this episode with me kind of leading
49:28
hosting and maybe we'll do another one of these here in the
49:32
future. If you enjoyed, leave your
49:33
comments down in the comments section below on each of the
49:36
topics. Love to hear what each of y'all
49:38
think and see you guys next one for the next episode.
49:43
A thumb up, baby, let's go.