Latest / Black Box Theory Podcast / BBT #25 | From A&T to Georgia Tech: Why Great Engineers Put People Over Work — Wesley Grammer

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BBT #25 | From A&T to Georgia Tech: Why Great Engineers Put People Over Work — Wesley Grammer · Black Box Theory Podcast

• Thomas: Hey, we're back. Malcolm: We back, man. We are back. Welcome back to our esteemed audience. Everyone that listens to us. this is episode what, my friend? Thomas: twenty five. Malcolm: Twenty five, twenty five. You know, that's that's a that's a that's a pretty good number, man. We have a we have another very special episode today. another special guest on the way. and we have a load of we'd like to think pretty interesting topics to talk about today. but yeah, we can go ahead and jump into it, man. Thomas: Man, welcome back. what's better than 24, 25? If that's how the joke went, I can't remember. But this is Black Box Theory, episode 25. a little bit about us for first-time listeners, people tapping in to listen to our Steam guests who we'll introduce shortly. Black Box Theory is a podcast for early career professionals in tech finance and corporate America. Our editorial focus is demystifying systems, pulling back the curtain on how in institutions, industries, and career paths actually work beyond the official narrative. I don't want to say his name just yet. I'm gonna let I'm gonna let Malcolm introduce it, but before I get any further, I gotta give the disclaimer. This is a podcast for informational purposes and a little bit of entertainment purposes only. We are here to provide knowledge and learn with you all at the same time. Do not follow us or follow any of this for financial advice. This is not financial advice. We are just thinking out loud. Please join us and let's all learn together. Malcolm: Yeah, man, we appreciate you for you know bringing us in. And today, like I said, we have another incredible Thomas: Yeah. Malcolm: guest. We're trying to keep the the street going. Our first guest, Jason, now to our second incredible guest. And this is someone that we have a ton of history with. you know, Thomas and I both went to school with him, pretty much at every class for the last four years with him. Our very good friend, Mr. Wesley Grammar. Wesley is a fellow ANC Aggie class of twenty five with a bachelor of science mechanical engineering. He's now finishing up a master's in electrical and computer engineering at Georgia Tech this December. so there's already a pivot. Y'all should be picking up on. My guy went from the same background as us, bachelor's in mechanical engineering, now to graduate school in electrical and computer engineering, now doing chip level hardware design. Give y'all a more I guess, detailed description, a little bit of glaze. In the years around that transition, he's worked across four very different environments: manufacturing engineering at North of Bremen, testing thermal materials for satellite and radar systems, a technical business role at ATT, managing enterprise software governance at scale, lead a hardware architect at Lola Vision Systems, building out the chip architecture, memory design, and thermal management for an AI accelerator, and most recently, an embedded systems engineering at Eton, writing calibration software for a next generation circuit breaker, where my guy has accepted a full-time offer to come back. And Yeah, we wanted I said, Well, see as a he has a ton of ton of like additional kind of like, you know, don't think he's just like a academic guy. My guy has a ton of involvement. He's 2025 Gym Fellow, was a CDL cloud digital leader certif certification from Google, lean six sigma yellow belt, came to the honors program at AT, member of Cap Office Attorney Incorporated. Yo, and the NASA member of the National Society of Black Engineers. So my guy is very well connected, well integrated. And we wanted Wesley on the show, one. We obviously got history with our guys. This is this is definitely family, one of our brothers. And his path cuts against the idea that you can pick a lane early and stay in it. So he's moved between huge legacy primes, enterprise telecoms, a hardware startup. And he's pretty much respecialized his entire background and made himself into someone with a mech E and hardware systems, kind of like specialization at the graduate level along the way. So there's not a lot of many, there's not a lot of people that have the confidence to make that type of pivot. And that's exactly why, you know, we wanted my gun on the show, because that's exactly. type of system that this show exists to unpack. And yeah, so as always with a special guest, we're gonna we're gonna work through some one on one questions that we have a round table discussion from our guy. But yeah, without further ado, I'm gonna let Wes come on and you know introduce himself and we can go even go ahead and get started. Wesley Grammer: Appreciate the introduction, fellas. Good to good to finally be on the pod. Obviously, y'all know we've been talking behind the scenes and always keeping in contact since we graduated, staying close, just talking about the podcast. I've definitely been listening as much as I can in my free time and stuff I love to listen about that you guys talk about. Like I said, a lot of great topics. So definitely great to be on. But you know, I appreciate the intro. Excited to kind of get started, get the discussion going today. it's good to see good to see you guys, hear from you guys. Excited. Malcolm: Sure. Yes, sir. No, no, Thomas: Yes, sir. Malcolm: we we we appreciate you, bro. We we're gonna go ahead. Like Thomas: Absolutely. Malcolm: I said, we got a couple couple good questions lined up. So I said, Thomas: Mm-hmm. Malcolm: for any of our like engineers listening or people like from a a STEM background, like I said, this is living proof that like you don't really just have to be your major. Like they're like you you you is you can always pivot, bro. Like there's always opportunity. So with that, we wanted to start off just to get a little bit about the origin. So like I said, we all got a background in mechanical engineering. we took all the same classes and I think we may have all kind of like had the same realization along the way. But like I said, out of three of us, West the only one that kind of like went the the you know further education route. So we wanted to ask you start mechanical engineering at ANT and end up doing RCL and chip architecture at Georgia Tech. So like we want you to walk us through that pivot and let us know like what made you realize mechanical engineering wasn't the full picture of what you wanted to build. Wesley Grammer: Yeah. I mean, like you said, I feel like it was something that we all realized being in class every day and just Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: kinda getting deeper and deeper into the major, like really getting into certain aspects of it. And the thing about school that I feel like is difficult is that with within any engineering discipline, any any major at all, but especially engineering, like no matter what discipline you pick, they show you every possible niche and job that you can kind of get into with each major. So You're kind of exposed to all the different aspects of mechanical engineering, even if you don't want to do every aspect of mechanical engineering. And that can really kind of drive you off your path of kind of being interested in a subject. So you could like one aspect of it, but because it's a a a a curriculum through a school, they have to show you every facet of it. And that can kind of show you sides of it that you might not like. And especially mechanical being the broadest engineering discipline, like we saw Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: everything, right? So Getting in some of those classes Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: that I didn't personally enjoy, vibrations, all that kind of stuff. I know y'all remember that, but Malcolm: yeah. yeah. Yeah. Wesley Grammer: like that that wasn't kind of the side of mechanical I enjoyed, but there there were some sides of it that I enjoyed. and I feel like I kind of decided to lean into the ones that I did enjoy, the class that we took that I did enjoy, and kind of Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: see how I can kind of dive deeper into subject matters pertaining to those. Obviously, like we did like Arduino classes, did circuitry stuff. That stuff I actually enjoyed. So I kind of wanted to lean into it with this master's degree, see if I can get a little bit more deep into it, see how what more I could learn about it. and obviously personally, from my perspective, I saw mechanical as a pretty not stagnant field, because it's obviously still a lot of innovation being kind of created throughout the field every day. And that's pretty much any engineering discipline. But From what I saw in the landscape, a lot of the innovations within mechanical were being driven by additions through electrical components and computer related components. So Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: I was like, well, if even the mechanical industry is kind of being innovated by integrating different electronic and computer systems within them those mechanical systems, then why not kind of go back and get the degree that would kind of cater to that and where the industry is going and stuff like that. So that was kind of my thought process behind Malcolm: Yeah. Nah, Thomas: Sure. Malcolm: nah that's a nah you touch on a lot of good points. I think like like I think like the that is one thing I say I'm I'm grateful for 'cause think like the versatility and like broadness of mechanical engineering, I think like you you never you're never gonna low know like Thomas: Yeah. Malcolm: I think if you're interested in another field, like if you're in a more concentrated engineering discipline that makes sense. Like I think like for other disciplines it's like, you know, like let's take like a something like a civil engineering or a comp sci or a even like a like an architectural engineering like I feel like those are so like hyper focused like on just that where it's like you don't really like they may have class I don't want to speak entirely to it but it's like I'm I don't think that they have as many classes where it's like branches of other engineering disciplines you can kind of like pick and grab from to know like all right I do like this part I don't like this part but I feel like with with EMI like obviously we have our core classes but bro there's so many other classes that we took like across like electrical all the different math classes the physics classes the the heat transfer classes the you know coding class so it's like I think all that kind of like like gave you that breath to like figure out like all right, like this is what I like, this is what I don't like, and like help you kind of like come to the decision that, you know, you did. But I guess like kind of building on that an initial question, I wanted to ask like obviously like you had like bits and pieces and like you mentioned, like facets of maritime that you liked and you didn't like, but I wanted to ask like was there a specific class, a professor, a project, or just like like a very like specific, I think, kind of like time at ANT that pointed you toward electrical computer hardware? I mean electrical and computer engineering before you'd committee before you'd com fully committed to like that switch. So I don't know if there was like a something that you had worked on where you was like, you know what, like yeah, I I gotta like like like stick with this, or was it like more of like a you'd say like a gradual kind of like, you know, inclination towards electrical? Wesley Grammer: I I feel like it was gradual. Like I don't think it was something that immediately kinda hit me 'cause the grad school path in general wasn't something that I initially knew I was gonna do until like kind of midway through senior year when the opportunity presented itself. But kinda looking back, like I just said, like looking at back at classes like our Arduino project where it really wasn't too much curriculum based and we were just building Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: a system that incorporated electronics obviously still had a mechanical aspect to it, but incorporated electronics and Arduino, whatever. Like I really enjoyed that process, kind of being able to lean into the the software coding with Arduino and then obviously the hardware building out whatever system that you were gonna kind of power through it. That looking back, I realized that that was kind of where my interest was and it kind of always has been. Like I've always, even like growing up, kind of been in that Like I did Lego Mind Storm growing up. So like doing stuff like that, programming hardware to kind of do whatever function that you kinda wanted to, but still kind of utilizing your hands and being on the hardware side, like that was always my niche. And I just didn't really wasn't really aware of it or keen to it until kind of looking back now, I started my degree and stuff like that. But I wouldn't say it was like a specific moment. It was more of a kind of gradual build up and now being able to look back on my life and my experiences, it kind of makes sense as to why I kinda ended up here. So yeah. Thomas: No, that that's that's valid. That's valid. I think, like as someone who knows you, right? I think for one, it's interesting to go this route, the electrical computer route. When, you know, as ME's, people went to school for mechanical engineering. You look at electrical engineers, you're like, bro, I'm not doing that. Like that, that's like one of the harder, Malcolm: Yeah. Thomas: like top hardest majors you can pick it from our perspective, Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Thomas: right? And also, just like the curiosity to do more. stuff as well. So I think like a key point in all of this is kind of separate yourself and do do what's different. A lot of people in our major, they're not really focused on learning about business. They're not focused on going more Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Thomas: into electrical. And I just I don't know, just listening to the origin and then looking back on history I think it's important to to share that for the audience. Like you actually went through a lot of iterations. Like we can't cover everything in the in the episode but Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Thomas: there was a lot of like corners that you had to turn just to even see what was for you, some doors and open. Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Yeah. Thomas: Even like you said, like the whole going to grad school thing was you didn't know until senior year, like halfway through senior year when the opportunity presented itself. So I guess I just wanted to ask kind of like outside of what we are on the path to ask, but how much did you kind of put faith into just trusting the process for where you are versus like sticking to a plan like I'm gonna do this and get it there. Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Like I mean you touched on it for sure. Like I feel like all at one point like during undergrad we were all kind of like question marks. Like we were sitting in class looking at each other like this ain't it. But like we also Malcolm: Well Wesley Grammer: we also like didn't really know exactly what direction we wanted to go. So we all kind of leaned into like more kind of like you said, business stuff, like just testing the waters with anything. Cause y if you don't I feel like That's one of the things that I see and I recommend to people still coming up and coming through undergrad. Like, if you do not know what it is that you want to do or your major Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: isn't tied to what your interests are, use internships as your opportunity to see what it is that you like doing. Like Malcolm: Yeah, bro. Only way you're gonna know. Wesley Grammer: literally, like it's it's a three month period where you get to test the waters and figure out, okay, let me s essentially simulate corporate for three months at a time. doing this certain role and figure out if this is something that I want to be doing for the rest of my life. Or not even the rest of my life, but at least coming out of undergrad. Like you shouldn't necessarily like you should always be looking for employment and looking for opportunities every summer. But they don't always necessarily have to be tied to what your major is, especially if you don't enjoy what you're doing in school. Like that should be your opportunity to reach around, figure out, pivot, like get something on your resume that's different than what your major is, that you have a a a breadth of experience that you can kind of present to whatever direction that you want to end up going in. So that's kind of what happened with me. Like I ended up going the ATT route for one summer. I think that was after my junior year, going into my senior year. And I was kind of, like we talked about earlier, just more of an official role was technical business manager. And I was kind of overseeing the integration of SaaS platforms into ATT's kind of software. And it was something that I'm I'm definitely grateful that I did because like I said, I mean it's an experience where it shows you kind of what the different ins and outs of corporate are, what the different roles are. Like an engineering team obviously consists of more than just engineers, right? They have they have managers, they have people telling them which direction to go, like what what our deadlines are, where we need what we need to be met Thomas: Okay. Wesley Grammer: with. And personally in that experience, it was it was a good experience in the moment, but looking back on it kind of in terms of what I wanted to see for my future and kind of for myself, it didn't exactly align with the direction I saw myself going straight out of college. So Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: that's kind of where when the opportunity for grad school presented itself. and it was a it was a great opportunity. Like like we said earlier, I was presented with the opportunity of having a gym fellowship, which fortunate for me enough Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: covered all of my graduate school studies. So I was like, well I have the opportunity to go back to school. and continue to figure out what it is that I wanna kinda do and pursue once I get out of kind of this learning system or I can kinda go into a role or some roles that I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to go into knowing that I wouldn't really want to be there. So I kinda took the opportunity to kind of better myself in a way and just Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: kinda dig more into myself and even though obviously putting the putting the money aside for a couple of years for sure, I was kind of just more so interested in figuring out what it is that I wanted to do, really understanding what I wanted to contribute in terms of the workforce and what I wanted to kind of bring to it and what will kinda drive me once I got there. So that's and I and I feel like my time here has really done that for me in my experience. So Malcolm: Mm. Thomas: You you were like Wesley Grammer: yeah. Thomas: real quick, I think you were also ATT when they had an outage. are you sure that had nothing to do Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Thomas: with with with your what was that was that your Malcolm: Yeah. Thomas: doing? Did you have the I I don't I don't know. I just I don't know. I mean we you you don't gotta answer. You don't gotta answer. I'm just I don't know. Wesley Grammer: Yeah, nah. I was there for that. So that was an interesting time. I didn't had nothing to do with it. No, I was not touching anything that had to do anything to do with it. but glad they got all that figured out and I wish them nothing but I I met a lot of great people there. Like I wish I wished them nothing but the best, best. yeah, yeah, it's it was a great program that I was in as well. the the role specifically that I was in wasn't something that interested me too much going forward. But yeah, it was it was a great program and great people overall over there for sure. Malcolm: Yeah. No. That's moving. That's that's this kind of like opens the door to another question I wanted to ask. Like I said, we we like Wes has kind of been talking a bit about just how how he's had like these broad experiences across like very different employers. And one thing, another good point he had talked about was like the importance of like internships so that, you know, obviously school and like the curriculum and the course that you take give you an idea of like the concepts and thing that you may kinda like be interested in that. But like internships are obviously a way more practical application of that kind of like foundational knowledge you get in undergrad or you know at your institution. But I wanted to ask here because I think this is another thing that I think that all of us can speak to with like having like all these various internships like pretty much every summer in school. so you've worked across like you know several different like like big employers, right? So you've worked inside the Massive Defense Prime and Ascome Telecoms, a hardware startup and now an industrial manufacturer. So it's like, what did would you say has been the single biggest difference, there is one, and how you have to operate, communicate, or move between a company like a North of Grumman or at a startup like like Lola Visa Systems. Like is there like a would you say like a difference in kind of like I mean obviously there's a different like type of work that you're doing at each company, but has there been any other differences as far as like communication and and just like how you kind of have to like navigate different you know, like processes at at at each of these employers. Like what's that, what's that kind of been like for you? Wesley Grammer: Yeah, no, for sure. And that kind of that's a great question because it was something that I was kind of thinking about in the moment, kind of when I first started with Lola Visions, last year around this time. it's the startup culture is a lot different. And like people are kind of being being more I feel like being more inclined to go into startup culture these days. A lot of people who Malcolm: Yes. Wesley Grammer: either didn't have internship experience before or like big corporate experience before or did, whether or not, like I personally did, like you were saying before. So I had an understanding of what a kind of fleshed out Fortune five hundred company looks like in terms Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: of operations and how things are run. And Lola Visions is still a great great, very great run startup. Like Tayo is still very close with him, a great CEO and running great things really well over there. but it's a lot different and you have to get adjusted to the startup culture. Like it's It's not always, you're gonna have like this, this, this, and this assignment to do. Even in corporate, you don't have that to do. But especially with a startup, because everybody is kind of always going at a hundred miles per hour and doesn't really have the time to babysit you or kind of make sure that you're doing your work. Like if you kind of went through the process of applying to kind of be a part of the fellowship that I was a part of in the first place, like they know that you had agency. Like they know you had the ability to kind of pick up you pick yourself up by your bootstraps and actually go do work and find work for yourself that can kind of push the agenda of the company. So I would say the biggest difference is like I said, I mean, the, the, the desire to get the work done. Like you have to really be proactive about getting work done and figuring out, okay, what kind of project or what kind of aspect of the business do we have to kind of prioritize it? right now at this point because we're cause we were even work like in even as an intern, like working at a startup, you have a lot bigger role as well. Not only do you have to have be more proactive in terms of the work that you have and are are are working on, but you also kind of have a bigger role because the team itself isn't as big. So you're kind of on calls with a lot of the partners, a lot of the investors and stuff like that. So that that exposure was really great for me. being able to see that and see what a pretty successful relative like relative to a lot of other startups and how they're doing. a pretty successful startup, kind of what they're looking like even in the beginning stages of their process. So I'll say the biggest thing between that and corporate, like I said, is that having that ability to be proactive, find your own work, understand that nobody's gonna hold your hand through the whole process, that Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: you have to find your own work, make your own experience, and that's kind of where you're gonna see the most growth. Malcolm: Yeah. Nah this was a that that that that that that was a great breakdown. I hope anybody listening that like has like has any doubt between like I mean, I don't know. I feel like a lot of p I know quite a few people who have like kind of like had like I don't know. I'm not gonna say it's like an inherently bad thing, but I know like plenty of people who have had like internships at the exact same company like three times straight and then like go on to be like full time there. And there's nothing wrong with that. I feel like that's a very like stable, secure kind of like way to go. And it's like if you Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: know you want to be at that company long term, then you know, obviously I'd say my cat to them. But I think like while you're in undergrad, like there's a level of risk tolerance that you're not gonna have like anywhere else. Or even like when you're in school period, I Wesley Grammer: Anyway. Malcolm: think there's like a level of risk tolerance that you you're gonna have and you're Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: not gonna be able to like like there there is no there is no like I mean, obviously like there are people that, you know, do like that jump from like company to company like full time, but there's a lot less cushion and fallback if something don't go right if you try to do that when you out of school 'cause like, you know You try to you try to think you the man and you you hop out your company, you like, yeah, I'm I'm on that and you don't get that interview, you don't get that relocation, or like like you're something goes Wesley Grammer: Hmm. Malcolm: wrong. It's quiet. You feel me? Like Thomas: Mm. Malcolm: it is really quiet now. School, yeah, yeah, I Wesley Grammer: I certainly. Malcolm: can say each of my interests were vastly different, bro. I was in Detroit, Cupertino, California, and Redmond, Washington, bro. Like, like I got to see like different cities. I knew what I liked. I knew I I knew like those experiences, like had I not done that, like I wouldn't have known, like, okay, like I don't see myself like living in the West Coast like for a long time. I don't see myself Thomas: Mm-hmm. Malcolm: like like so it's like it's certain things where it's like I wouldn't have known if I'd stayed at the same, you know, company like three times straight or, you know, and maybe on one coast three times straight. But like I said, I think each of them like have kind of like taught me something like really important and still something to me that I carry with me, even now working full time. but yeah, we wanted to to before we wrap up the the one on one portion, had one more kinda like question that's that's obviously specific to West, but once you finish up at Georgia Tech this December, just wanted to ask you like I guess like best way you can put it, like what's the actual role or problem you want to be working on? is there like a obviously between like chip architecture, embedded systems, something else? like what's like what do you see yourself like what are what are the problems that you see yourself solving after you wrap up and and walk the stage? Wesley Grammer: Yeah. so as of right now, kinda like we were talking about before, I'm be up back in with Eaton, kinda working with the team that I was actually fortunate enough to work with this past summer as an embedded systems intern. I'll be working as a senior embedded systems engineer with that team, kind of programming hardware for the future of AI data centers and kind of working with a lot of the technology that's gonna go into those facilities and stuff like that. So looking forward to that and definitely fortunate for that opportunity. but in terms of what I want to do, kind of my experiences have like I I feel like I was able to utilize my kind of extra time, I guess, my extra year and a half of school to really hone in on not only what my passions are, but kind of what direction I kinda wanna go in. So I feel like it is obviously in the in in that field. obviously I wanna be able to make an impact in the field that is taking the world by storm right now. everybody's involved in it. Everybody has a hand in it. where my place kinda is in that, I don't exactly know yet. but I definitely want to make a positive impact as much as I can. utilizing the skills that I've kind of been able to accumulate over the past couple of years, not only with hardware, but just people's skills as well. see how I can go into this upcoming company and just different networking opportunities that I may see myself in in the future and just kind of drive the the the positive side of of the business because a lot of the negatives are being highlighted right now and there are still definitely a lot of negatives that can potentially be associated with the future of AI and hardware in general or just AI infrastructure data centers. Like obviously it's it's become a political thing to kind of talk about that kind of stuff now. And Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: I just want to see how I can positively impact that whole realm with the skill sets that, like I said, I've I've obtained from school being the technical ones, but also just my interpersonal ones that I've obtained just kind of from A and T, from my upbringing and stuff like that to see kind of if if if we can make it a little bit more of a a positive outlook and an optimistic outlook in terms of the future of AI and collaboration with humanity and just live living with this new technology because like I said it's it's it's a lot of negativity associated with it right now because a lot of people have I feel like mis mistreated it, mislabeled it. Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: done things with it that were immoral and didn't didn't have morals associated with them because they were trying to push their own agenda. And I just want to see how we can kind of assimilate AI into our society in a in a good way so that people are receptive to it and can utilize it as a tool that genuinely benefits them. It's not something that they are kind of unaware of and afraid of in a way. So pretty pretty broad answer, but I mean that's kind of where my heart's at in terms of what I wanna be working on. Like I I don't really wanna obviously like I said my role's gonna be a senior embedded systems role and I'm very excited for that. I'm very, very fortunate for that as well. But I'm not necessarily Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: I'm someone who's more motivated by impact rather than specific title or role. Like right. I I I kinda wanna see as as anybody does, see how I can kind of contribute in a positive way to to make things better for the future of everybody. So however Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: that ends up, we'll see, but be working hard always. Malcolm: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great that's a great answer, man. That's a yeah, no, that's a great answer. I think like I don't know. I'm hoping people really kinda like listen to that and just just honing in on like be I know like and we're gonna talk about this like in I'm sort of in detail in our in our round table discussion, which we're about to kind of pivot into, but yeah, that is a I think a big kind of like piece that you touched on, just like I think like AI kinda just scares a lot of people that don't And I also think like just like it also kind of just starts with like the mislabeling of AI. Like I think that people just kind of like like the term AI is kind of used like very freely and not really actually attached to what it is. Like I think like it's been kind of like labeled as just like this conglomerate of like all these different technologies kind of like messed together that just makes sense. I think like most people associate like chat bots with AI as that and that being like the extent of it. But and also people like hear all these like crazy stats about like the water usage in data centers and like the how it's affecting the power grid and stuff like that. And it's understandable, Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: especially if you're living in those communities that really are being affected by like Wesley Grammer: For Malcolm: these big hyperscalers and data centers. So I understand Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: both sides of it. But I think like you know, like my stance on this has always been like I'd rather be like I I I I would like to be like I'd like to at least p try to position myself that instead of instead of just being like reactive to like the stuff that happens like at the at the highest level, like I want to position myself where it's like okay Even if I even if even if I'm like a Sam Altman or Dario like actually leading the front the the largest frontier AI labs in the in the world, like I still wanna be in a position where it's like I know what's going on. Like I know like how AI is trickling down and affecting different communities. I don't I wanna understand like how this technology works and the and like I wanna understand like okay, like e even if I'm not able to control it entirely, I'd like to at least like understand how it works so that I understand the implications of it and and and how it can affect people around me. But nah, yeah, definitely wanna Like I said, thank Wes for his for his detailed answers for like our our one-on-one portion. And now I want to get into like a round table discussion between like three of us, because we obviously have like a ton of overlap between our backgrounds and A and T mechanical engineering and just kind of like where we're at now in life. And so on the A and T side, like we wanted to talk about first question I wanted to kinda like bring up to the three of us was so obviously like I said, all three of us went to ANT. So what's something about not generally not HPCUs in general, but what's something specific about ANT? That has shaped how each of us has approached engineering or work. And yeah, I can go ahead, take it, you know, whenever. Wesley Grammer: Thomas, you wanna get started? Thomas: yeah, I I I can answer. how it shaped my approach to engineering or work, honestly, just to not wait on people. my experience at AT. Like, and you know, in school they always talk about teamwork and and rely on your team and you know, they try to enforce people doing their roles and assigning roles and you know, you someone's always gonna be the timekeeper. Someone's always gonna be the note taker, right? Stuff that doesn't I'm gonna be honest, it doesn't matter. Like BS roles, people just basically backpack backpacking riding along. you know, I'm I'm trying to think of an NBA reference. I can't think of one right now, but somebody riding the bench to a chip. Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Thomas: Jordan Clarkson on the Knicks. I forgot he was on that team. Malcolm: Yeah, Jeff Jeff T. Jeff T wan Milwaukee. Jeff T. Wesley Grammer: Yeah. cool. Thomas: Yeah. Shout out Jeff Teague, man. I forgot he was on that Wesley Grammer: J T. What you said thought you said J T. Thomas: team. Malcolm: Go ahead, bro. Thomas: But but like do you know, just like learning that everybody on your team is not on your team. And when you get to corporate, I think those lessons apply differently. Like in school is one thing. When you get to corporate, bro, everyone has their own personal agenda, everyone has their own thing they want to do, their own people they're trying to impress, their own way that they're trying to get by or, you know, whatever to screw you over or make themselves look good. it's not actually about how much work you do, how good your work is, or how hard you work. Like none of that matters. We're gonna keep it honest. unless you are doing your own thing. And in school it's the same thing. So I think it taught me to just fight for myself, put the team in a good position to succeed, try to set it up so that, you know, if even if I do make the plate for someone else, I I also put the fork on there so they can feed themselves. to just keep stacking that that type of mindset. So getting the corporate, it's a lot of like bad work by yourself, like how how much you really finna put in. pause on your on your own accord, and you know, just just like just being able to be self sufficient. so I would say that that's kind of what it taught me. And my approach to engineering work is just I really learned that between a combination of A and T and internships, honestly, just to like sometimes you gotta take a step back, reevaluate and then and then get back in the game. And really just a lot a lot of it just boils down to determination, covering covering your basis. Wesley Grammer: Yeah. That's real. I mean, obviously from my perspective, I haven't kind of seen the corporate side as much, being that kind of my only exposure has been internships for three month stints. So I don't really know to the extent kind of how that's like tr carrying over to the corporate side, but kind of coming from AT to obviously Georgia Tech now, as a PWI, I feel like What I appreciated about ANT and kind of what it taught us was to to care about kind of the the the people that is affected by the work that we're doing just as much as we care about the work that we're doing. Like I feel like the fact that they preach like the the the community aspect that's pre sets, HBCUs, like the the fact that they always told us to to look out for one another and to keep people's best interest in mind at all times. Like that kind of stuff really sticks with me now. Like working with people who not necessarily obviously it like Georgia Tech's still a great school with a lot of great people, but because it's so much so much bigger, it's harder for a singular school to kind of create a overall overarching message like that they want kind of want to preach to their students. So a lot of people get lost in the ability to not only care about the work that they're doing, but care about the kind of people that they're doing it with and doing it for. So I feel like A ANT and HBCUs really preach to us, like, yeah, go out, go out there and do whatever you're gonna do, but make sure that it's kind of with a purpose and that you're reaching back and actually doing something meaningful with whatever success that you accumulate or get. and I kind of have taken that with me through my graduate experience. Like obviously Still we're we're all still very early in our process in terms of reaping the fruits of our labor of the work that we're putting Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: in. But I I will always keep in the back of my mind kind of the lessons A and T and HBCU's taught me to always care for the person next to you as you're kind of building towards whatever goal that you have and always prioritizing the people just as much as the work, if not more. Malcolm: Yeah. Nah that's that's yeah, I think I both hit on some some pretty good points. I think I think for me, man, I think like I I said I was just listening to y'all talk, I kinda like trying to think through like what I took away from A and T the most. I think it's two things. I think one, obviously the community, like the Aggie like the whole like Aggie Pride thing, that's really like I learned like more and more like, you know, and even I think like like with some of like the recent stuff that's happened at our school, like I think like it's very clear that Aggie Pride is more than like a like a just like a slogan or like a like a a you know just a thing that we say like it it really is like a you know like one big family like regardless of what year you graduated like you know if you're an Aggie you're an Aggie so but I think for me I think it's a couple things right so I think one because like I think we too we we low-key I ain't gonna say we took it for granted bro but it's like when I talk to people that come from other schools and like even like I'm talking about schools as in like better considered like a lot more prestigious than us in the same areas. Like I think that the one thing that Antie taught me is like the importance of like Bro, if there's an opportunity in your face, bro, like take it. Like, and I think like, as an example, like like just like when I when I go back and I think about just like how many emails you got on a daily basis where like the the school was sending us like internship opportunities, grants, fellowships. I mean, like they was literally it was to the point where it was like they was almost like shoving it in our face to the point where it's like, bruh, people got so like like overwhelmed with it, where it's like, bruh, people started to put like actual scholarships in a spam email. Cause they we got so many opportunities that it felt Wesley Grammer: Hospital, no. Malcolm: like it felt like normal, bro. it's like, bro. People that's not normal. Like we thought that was normal. That's really not normal. But it's like, bro, a lot of the opportunity and like people don't be some people be trying like play with ANT. Like we like I said, we may not have the same, like and it's like we're a growing institution. It's also like people don't understand, like, bro, we're still a land grant institution. Like we are underfunded by like billions of dollars. Like if we had the money we're supposed to have, like rightfully so, we would be in a complete like we would be in a completely different like type of like stratosphere when it comes to like like how people talk to talk about us, right, as a as an institution. But that's besides the point. That's a HPC problem in general. But like as far as like the opportunities, bro, and it's like you think about the size of our career fair, bruh. Like, bro, it's gotten to the point now where it's like, it's gotten so big. Like, think about how when Paul's think how like when we started as freshmen to like what it is now, bruh. When we was freshmen, that joint was what all in Corbett? Like we could walk in Corbett, we was walking, we was doing laps. Wesley Grammer: Yeah. It's in the Coliseum now. Malcolm: That joint has got you feel me. First it went from just being a Corbett, then it Thomas: Call the same and stuff. Malcolm: went from being a Corbett and the alumni center. Now it's gotten so large that they have to take that. They had it's in the Coliseum where we have our graduation at, where we have the steps to at. Like, that's like that's just speak. We may not have like the same like and it's the thing, like that that's the type of stuff that doesn't get put in the headlines, bro. Like you'd only know if you went to the school, you really are are around Greensboro and you like know what happens at A and T. But it's like take Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: it, like people don't take advantage and realize like, like, bro, like people literally come to us. They had like companies literally market X on their calendar when A and T is out there 'cause like we are still the number one producer back in the news of the country. And that's not like a some people just try make that like a per capita argument, like, yeah, I have the most students, so it's gonna obviously be the most but it's like, bro, like that still is a a a something that we carry with prior, bro. So it's like People don't realize how how well how much ANT like really be trying to position you for success. And I do think also part of that is like we also may be a little bit we also may have a bit of a biased view. Cause like it is unfortunate, but like low-key, like I think engineers do have like more of like a sway when it comes to like companies that be out there for them. Like, but it's also at Wesley Grammer: Sure, yeah. Yeah. Malcolm: the same time, it's like, bruh, like you have to think about this from a like a business, bruh. If you're like, like, who brings in the money to school, bruh? Like, come on now. So it's like it. Cause I I always see the argument, bro. It'd be like, like, no offense to anybody that studies like other majors. Like I like I think Kobe is also like a really like gets a lot of rep good representations too. But it'd be people like, all right, like liberal studies and like food science and like psychology, they'd be like, bruh, there's no companies here for me. Like Wesley Grammer: What companies are there? Malcolm: like like like come on again. Like they'd be like, like they'd Thomas: yeah. Malcolm: be walking around with like like bruh, like, yeah, I have a degree. I'm studying Like bro, I'm not about to make this to a major argument, but y'all know what I'm saying, bro. But it's like, yeah, I think like people had like that taught me everything about like just taking it, man. Like Ant is positioning me to like, like they they Auntie, like my first internship ever, I interviewed with a guy that that graduated from Auntie. Our interview, like my first internship at Stanis in in Michigan, was like the foundation, which opened the door for Apple, which led to Microsoft, which led to me getting like so it's I I look at all of it like a butterfly effect, but that first ever interview I had, I was I was scared, bro, because I was like I felt like all my friends was getting interested. I was like kind of like behind. I like, bro, I gotta lock in. And we started talking. I was like, this is this is the bro. Like we wasn't even interviewing, bro. Like we was just literally just having a normal conversation. I was like, bro, that's like that that ANT, like, you know what I'm saying? That. And then I think the other thing was just like, ANT is really kind of like instilled in me, is like, bro, like you are completely in charge of like how you market yourself as a candidate at companies. And what I mean by that is like a lot of people I think fall into I don't want to call that a trap, but like a lot of people kind of like consolidate themselves into their major. Like they If they are an electrical engineering student, they only apply for electrical engineering internships. If you're a mechanical engineering student, they only do mechanical engineering. That's like they kind of like stay in that lane. And that's not to say that like I think depending on the versatility of your major, I knew after my freshman year, I was like, all right, mechanical engineering is cool. I don't want to switch my major per se, but I do want to switch the type of opportunities I apply for to see like, okay, what other rooms can I get myself into? Like that's the kind of like I had to like change my mindset a bit and like start to market myself and brand myself as someone that was more. a mechanical engineer but I I just showed that I was adaptable. I was versatile. I could like get into any room and like like pick up what needed to be done and like still like deliver high quality, high impact work. So that's like what would instill the confidence in me to even apply for someone like Apple because like if I didn't change my mindset, it wouldn't even have crossed my mind to like apply for a company like that or to apply for a company like Microsoft. So it's like once I realized that like I'm in control of like my destiny and like the way I brand myself and market myself like to potential employers, like that's kind of like when stuff started to click for me. Like, all right, like I have that, I I I have the agency and like the ability to like, you know, brand myself as as such. So but yeah, like I said, it's I don't know why, man. But like I said, I always say like ANT is the best decision I've ever made. Like Wesley Grammer: For sure. Malcolm: as far as like we're talking about return on investment, what it's done for me, the community it's provided for me. Like I I got like I said I've met people at Ant that's literally gonna be my friends and my, you know, brothers for like, you know, and sisters for like the literally the rest of my life, bro. Like and it's like that type of community, like I wouldn't trade for anything. I got a, you know, world class education. Like I said, I didn't need to go to like a the the the best school in the world because I still be in the rooms with the same people that go to them them type of school. So it's like, all right, like we both still here, so you know, it's cool, right? Wesley Grammer: Literally. Malcolm: So that that's that's how I look at it, man. I like Ant like positioning me. Actually, I give I give them a ton of credit. I think like One thing I will do, like I said, when when I am like in position too and I I really got like some real bread, I'm gonna definitely try to give back, bro. Cause that that's also one thing that I do think like I said the thing about us being underfunded, but I think another thing too, bro, the reason that like other schools be having like these crazy endowments and they're able to do stuff, bro, it's because their alum give back, bro. Like we do not Wesley Grammer: I'm not getting back. Yeah. Malcolm: get back. I ain't gonna lie, we don't get back. Like, like like people Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: graduate from AT and they don't even touch a donor link like ever again, bro. Like, like we gotta, you know what I'm Wesley Grammer: Tell me. Malcolm: saying? Like, but yeah, that's I know my answer is a little long Thomas: Yeah. Malcolm: winded, yeah, that that that's that's how I'm feeling about I think what A think A T gave each all three of us kind of like, you know, something incredible and like a great return on our investment. But like I said, it's still we still young in our careers and we still got a lot more to go to kinda like, you know, keep keep keep sowing the fruits of those of our labor. But Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Thomas: Hey, but before Malcolm: yeah, man. Thomas: moving on, I pass ANT, I just wanna add, as far as I know, ANT also never had has had a history of denying us based off of our ethnic background. if you went to a university that did that, that that's facts. ANT never denied us just because we're black. So I just wanna throw that out there. Wesley Grammer: Yeah, no, that's real. It's funny you saying that Mel. 'cause I literally had two experiences within the past week pertaining to both things that you were saying. Obviously, students that Malcolm: True. Wesley Grammer: never touched ANT's campus never well that obviously they've heard about it, but one I was telling somebody I went to an AT, one of my peers, he's a fellow master student here, and he was like, I I know this girl that go to ANT or went to A and T. She has the the most accolades I've seen in my life. Like she said, he said I she's had the most scholarships and opportunities I've seen in my life. I'm like, yeah, that's that's how it like that's how we get. Like I was like, yeah, like Malcolm: care. That's that's literally how yeah. Any racking up scholarships, bro, like it's insane. Thomas: Standard. Wesley Grammer: we like our school don't play about that and students don't either. Like they present opportunities. Students know the value of education and the value of kind of what we're doing there. So we lean in every into every opportunity to grow, whether it's professionally. Whether it's financially in terms of helping us fund our education, like we don't play about that. And that's the one thing that he he knew about her as an Aggie graduate. And then Malcolm: Facts, bruh. Wesley Grammer: another I had another instance living the other day, because we had our tort career fair here at Georgia Tech within the past week or so. and I was talking to one of my this younger guy that I know, he just started his masters that I've that I've kind of been getting close with. And he was he was telling me, well, he was like, Bro, I'm about to go up to A and T career fair, bro. I'm not trying to go to Texas when. And like bro, be bro, people like Georgia Tech's Career Fair is nothing to like bada eye at. Like it's a great, like great companies out there, great opportunities for sure. But it's just like such a b it's a lot bigger pool. It's a it's a lot bigger pool of really great candidates who all have the same mindset, and not saying that they're on AT, but Georgia Tech's obviously a bigger campus, so it's hard to kind of get noticed. and he literally he he graduated from Prairie View, like he went Thomas: Mm. Wesley Grammer: to school in Texas. But he's telling me like I'm about to go f from Atlanta to Greensboro, which is a five hour drive, because he knows about the opportunity that the d the A and T career fair is and like presents for students, period, but especially students of color. so Malcolm: Bro. Yeah. Wesley Grammer: it's literally funny that you say that because I literally had two experiences where somebody told me about somebody they know from A and T and how distinguished they are in terms of like Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: the scholarships and rewards that they have. And someone literally just talked to me about the career fair. and wanted to go skip Tech's one and go to ours because of the opportunities and companies that were present at it. So and I'm obviously at Georgia Tech, which is not which is a top five, top three engineering institution in the in the country. So that kind of gives you perspective about kind of anti and whatever. Malcolm: Brownton, like people really like like people really sleep on ANT, bro. It's like it's one thing. I didn't I when I didn't because when I first heard it, I didn't believe it. But it's one, like when I heard, when first someone, I think I forgot who told me, it was one of our, it was someone. It was someone one of the professors, some one of our professors, but they was like, Yeah, I don't know if you guys know this, but like ANT has the largest, not just in North Carolina, ANT has the largest career fair on the East Coast. On the and I was like, I was like, nah, yeah, I can't. Wesley Grammer: On the east coast. Literally. Literally. Malcolm: I was like, I was like, wait, I was like, wait, wait, because I brought 'cause I went to our career fair and I'm like, I was looking, I like, damn, like, all right, like this is pretty deep. But it didn't, it never like occurred to me until I actually started like talking to people from other schools. I'm talking like I know like I'll say I even reached, like I said, I got my I got people that like even in North Carolina, I got people at NC State, at Duke, like at schools that are like widely regarded from like the naked eye, considered like just flat out, like way more prestigious and a better institution than us. But it's like when you took career Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: fairs, like art, we fill out an entire gymnasium, an entire alumni foundation, an entire Coliseum, they'd be like, Yeah, bro, like it'd be like three companies there, bro. I'm Like that's so Wesley Grammer: Tell me. Malcolm: like mind boggling to me. And it's like the only thing I can think of, I think the only thing I can think of, like and it's like like to like kind of like under s like wrap my head around that, I would like to think that more of those students that go to those more prestigious or I guess like what more I guess accredited schools. I think that they get more of their opportunities like in the the pool when they actually apply to something online. Like I think like like from a recruiter Wesley Grammer: You know. Malcolm: standpoint, like it's a difference. Like we have the career fair advantage, like where it's like in person, you can actually connect with me and understand like what I can bring to the table. But think like those other schools, like if you're applying to the same company and you're a recruiter on the back end, you're going through resumes and you're going through experiences and you see like a okay, now you see now you see like the Dukes, the MITs, the Stanfords, the Princetons. Then you see the ANTs like, okay. I think that's where like that they have their advantages and as far as like name brand, as far as like when it's like Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: when it's like there is no no face to kind of like attach to the the resume. Or you're looking at it as like, okay, like you come from this school. And so I'll pitch you against like these, these other competitors. Like those like I think that's where they have their advantage at. But still, I feel like that's that's why I said my original point. I was like, it's up to you to take advantage of those in-person opportunities and the opportunities that ANT subs in your face. Cause like unfortunately, even though I think you know, we all can obviously speak to it, like ANT doesn't have the respect it deserves when it comes to like, you know, people that haven't heard of us, like to the naked eye, like you know, people always want to pick the the more prestigious institutions over us. when it comes to picking like internships or or fellowships or co ops or full time jobs. So it's like we got to get what we can when we have the opportunity to because like more nine times out of ten when we're just like bidding we're just a faceless person in a pool of applicants, we're always gonna be the last pick, bro. So it's like you gotta make yourself the first pick when you in personal people when you have the opportunity to kinda like control that destiny and that fate. Thomas: That's facts. I I I just wanna add I seen that like that that's facts for sure. Seen that at Apple, Microsoft, like going Malcolm: I'm telling you. Thomas: there, people from Harvey Mudd, Carnegie Mellon, Penn, like Harvard, like water the loo like people from all these big schools. Malcolm: Waterloo, Georgia, yeah, bro. Then I go lie. That's where the crack everybody, bro. It'd be some yeah, it'd be some schools like it's very obvious. Like like the that's it's like the the most cracked dudes, bruh, either from Waterloo, Georgia Tech, Carnegie, Stanford. Like it'd be it's a pool of schools you already know, like all right, I got it, bro. Like like like like you got it. Thomas: Yeah, Waterloo Wesley Grammer: No for him. Yeah. Thomas: is notorious. Malcolm: Bro, like everybody bro, it comes Wesley Grammer: For sure. Malcolm: straight from there. Thomas: But it's like the people from HBCU's, which are extremely qualified, you know, typically get in through those in-person interactions. So moral of the story, take advantage Malcolm: Or yeah. Thomas: of the programs available to you, especially nowadays, with some of the the political actions taking place, going against you directly. I'm seeing people's programs getting canceled, people gotta leave school, like. Take advantage of what's there, use your network, use your community, because especially if you attend a university that is disrespected at an international level, or if you are from a ethnic background that is disrespected at an international level, you you all you really have is your community. And unfortunately it doesn't go as high up the chain for in a lot of industries as we would like, but you got to use what you can to help pull people up and keep moving forward. Wesley Grammer: Sure. Malcolm: And like on that, on that like making sure that we helping people move forward. Like I don't wanna take it to my sounds with this but probably gonna use this as like the our close around question. But once again I'm gonna do like a round table, just like you know, what's what's one piece of advice, you know, I think that each of us would give to a black engineering comp side, even not even just engineering, like just a a a you know, someone like a someone that looks like us at an institution like us, like, what's a piece of advice you would give them trying to figure out their next two years? Like, like what's something you would instill in them, have them keep as they kind of like figure out this ever evolving, dynamic, kind of like landscape of AI, you know, political climate stuff, you know, financial stuff. And that's a whole nother situation. It's like I I think it's kind of insane how like as soon as we graduate and we like get into like the real world, everything goes to hell, bruh. I'm Wesley Grammer: Everything's prize. Malcolm: talking about 10 year bonds highest since like 2008. Mortgage the US mortgage. it's 30 year interest rate, 30 year fixed mortgages Wesley Grammer: Yeah. Malcolm: set seven and a half percent. We're not buying a crib until we're 30, bro. Like like, but we are not bro, I ain't gonna lie, bro. I I was talking about possible the other Abraham, bro. Like like all that's all that all that I was talking crazy about like buying a crib next two years, like woo-doo. Yeah, it's dead. Crib is dead. We got like every we we we buy to like Social Security about to run out of money. Got you know who in in in in the in the president's office, like bruh, like governments we're Wesley Grammer: Yeah, government spending is off the chain. Malcolm: at 45 and trillion in debt. Everybody's getting laid off. Like we have the most powerful technology of all time come through right when we come out of school. Like, bruh, like, like I don't know. I don't know. Wesley Grammer: Yeah, bro. It's crazy times. Malcolm: It's nasty work out here, but that's why I like, bro, like trying to juggle all that, like, pause. When you're in school and like trying to figure out your next two years, bro, like it's like like. Like what what what are some that you would you would tell somebody trying to like like just navigate all of that? then I'll speak at once. Wesley Grammer: I mean, I feel like it's gonna be something that we continue to talk about. So I mean, I'll kick it off. I mean, I was literally just talking to my roommate about this, talking to Micah about this. Like, I feel like it's it's the same way that like with everything going crazy, like it's it's it's it's one of the reasons why I personally and I feel like anybody should, whatever you believe in or Whatever you hold dear to you or whatever your belief system is, like definitely believe in something higher than you. Cause it's not too many worldly things that are might might keep you optimistic right now and the way that the world is going. so I mean I lean on my connection with God, like knowing that everything is gonna work out. Like it might not work out in the way that we anticipate that it will, like, and that We think it w it might and the timing that it will, but it's gonna work out and you just have to position yourself, understand who you are, one, but also position yourself to be in the best position of success as possible. And it's obviously hard to see what that's gonna be because the industry's always changing, things are always going a certain way, policies might be changing, kinda so like it feels like the ground from under you is kind of being the rug from under you is being pulled at a at all times, you can never really get a solid foundation and feel like you're actually comfortable where you're at. But I mean, just always being flexible. Like always being flexible and keeping rooted within you just who Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: you are as an individual and kind of always building on that and building on what your purpose is. Because if you tie yourself to a certain career, a certain idea, a certain something that's tangible or something that can be taken away. I mean, you've seen it in the past few months and years. Like Stuff that was around at one point was gone in the in the blink of an eye. So if you're not tying yourselves to things that are higher than kind of kind of worldly things to me, and like things that aren't that important, like I feel like you're you're you're you're bound to kind of get swept up in that in the constantly changing of things. But kind of when you're rooted within yourself, internally and then externally, just as an individual. like understanding that the the the industry is volatile right now. Like it's it's going everywhere's direction. So you kinda have to be the same way. Like make yourself Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Wesley Grammer: a Swiss Army knife. Don't kind of be tied down to one particular thing and be always ready to pivot at all times, no matter what the circumstances, so that you're applicable in whatever new kind of infrastructure or kind of landscape that we're we're being we're being dealt with. So yeah. Just always knowing your value, being rooted in God and being always ready to pivot for what's next, I feel like. Thomas: that's facts. That's facts is great points. man, I just want to add on to that. to add on to what Wes said, man, definitely definitely put God first. whatever you believe in, whatever you pray to, you pray to Jesus, Allah, Buddha, you know, Zeus, whoever, you you need you need to believe in something higher than you. What one thing that scares me a lot is people that just don't believe in anything because you'll do anything. Like I've met some people. We've talked about this on a pod before. People led by money or worldly things, those are the most dangerous people to watch out for, I'm be completely honest, because they they have no they they they might say they have morals and and stuff to guide them, but if you don't, you know, that's how we get to where we are now. We are where we are now because a lot of people with the power and and the and the opportunity making the decisions are led by, you know, a rabid hunger for creativity, a rabid hunger for money. and and they just follow that to the ends of the earth, not really worrying about the consequences. but that's one thing. Next thing, get outside, enjoy your life. like you never know when it's all over with. You know, if you if you're alive to even listen to this right now, you're very blessed. I mean, we're seeing some crazy stuff happening with natural disasters, you know, prayer prayers to Nepal, that that whole area that the glacier fell off the the mountain, you know, all that. prayers everybody suffering from Earthquakes, natural disasters, global warming, that is the direct product of the things that we as humans are doing. And yeah, just in terms of advice to college students, pursue your passions, bro, straight up. Like if you want to do something, do it. It like if you want to go be a a teacher, you wanna go open a business, you wanna start a consulting thing, you wanna do it. Like do it while you're in school. Start it then, because like we talked about earlier, that's the best time. You don't have as much to worry about, hopefully, you know. and like life gets serious real quick, man. Like you think you think you get a job, start making some money, you can do this, do that, and the third. No, you just become a minion to the system, I guess. I don't want to say say another word, but you end up just just getting getting whipped. and you get paid, but you get whipped for it. Ain't no paycheck free. but but yeah yeah yeah just just enjoy your life, man. Do do it do what you have faith in. And if you're really against AI, the best thing you can do, learn more about it, right? Learn more about Wesley Grammer: Right. Thomas: the different things like Wes talked about earlier. There's a lot of fear, a lot of confusion, a lot of like there are reasons to be fearful, but the reason the way you combat fear is by being informed. Everything is not all bad, everything is not all good. That goes for everything on this earth. and if you feel super strongly about AI, hedge it. Not hedge it in terms of go against the chips, go against the companies. Don't do that. That's bad advice. Don't do that. if you want to get money, hey, hey, look at look at the the semiconductors, look at the chips. Look, we've been talking about Malcolm: Yeah. Thomas: this forever. Wesley Grammer: That's right. Thomas: and when I say hedge it, I mean what can you do to protect what you're worried about being damaged from AI. If you think the big companies aren't thinking about what you're thinking about or thinking about fail safes or things like that. Design it. I'm not saying to go build a virus to go take out all the data centers and AI, but build something to protect what you think needs to be protected. That's your right. and yeah, I mean that I know that's kind of specific, but really just man, I know it's hard to do, but but find your passion, follow that. Do do what you wanna do because you'll hit a point where you can't, especially if you don't have kids, you're not married, you don't have responsibilities, do it. That's You'll you'll get older Malcolm: Mm-hmm. Thomas: and wish that you did if you did not or if you do not. So Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: Sure. Malcolm: Nah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think to wrap things up, like think only thing I leave with. I say, man, like comparison is a thief of joy, man. Like like what's for you is for you. I say for anybody kind of like like trying to like navigate these next couple of years. Like, like it it's very easy to like make yourself like if you scroll on LinkedIn or and I was literally just talking to my to one of my my Lar brothers Miles about this yesterday, bro. But it's like it's very easy to kind of like scroll on a LinkedIn or an Instagram or whatever social media platform. Any any type of social media platform where you see like more about what someone else is doing. It's very easy to feel like you're behind or you're not doing enough or you're just like like just like way out of your league, right? Or way in over your head. I was thinking like, like focus on you, man. Like regardless of what everyone else is doing. Like at the end of the day, like a lot of these things where you see what someone else is doing and they're showing you like the at the end of the day, social media does design so that you can only see the top one percent or the high absolute highlights of someone's life. Right. Like like no one everyone will be quick to show you the the money or the new car, the new house, the achievement, the new job, the new promotion, but no one shows you the struggles, right? Like the the the when stuff is going bad, right? Like when you're at your absolute lowest, like rock bottom, nobody ever shows that. So it's like you don't know, right? Like everything that all you're seeing is like what they want you to see. And that some anyone can tailor their life to make it seem like they just have everything figured out. And it's very easy to like kind of like feed into that and feel like you're not doing enough yourself. Right. But when you let kind of like social media and these different platforms and just like looking at other people's experiences and what they have going on. Like it's very easy to kind of like psych yourself out and make yourself feel like you're not doing enough. But If you stay committed to yourself, to your path and like the things that you set out to do, like what anyone else is doing per se, like shouldn't really matter. Like obviously, like, you know, you have your people that you're gonna celebrate and support regardless of what happens, but don't don't worry about like don't overindex into what anyone else is doing. Like what's for you is for you and it's it's it's it's supposed to be that way. So I would just say kind of like keep that confidence in yourself to understand that like your path, like whether it happens earlier or later, like You know, if you put the work in and you know, you sow the seeds, like you're gonna eventually like reap the fruits of your labor and and and and the the product like down like the byproduct of the work that you put in. So yeah, like I say, it's very easy to get distracted and kind of like fall into that trap of I'm not doing enough or or dang, like he has this, I don't have this, like like be content with what you have and with the work that you've done and where you're at in life and you know, things are gonna figure itself out. But yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that's kind of like my answer. And like before we do wrap up, definitely want to say thank you to my boy Wes for even like hopping on this the the the pod with us, man. Somebody that, like I said, very, very Wesley Grammer: You say colour. Malcolm: near and dear to us, man. Someone who has a lot going on for himself, got a got a bright future ahead. and yeah, like I said, this is somebody that's that's put the work in. And like I said, like he's here. He's someone that's on here because he can speak firsthand to some of like, you know, the work that he's done and and where it's gotten him so far. So like I said, we're gonna try to keep this train going. And like our platform, like I said, We see the reach that it has. Like we want to keep having incredible guests on here. People like Wes, like Jason, who can like just like have these speak these incredible experiences that no one else can really like come on here and just talk about. So like I said, we definitely keep the momentum going. But I said thank you again for coming on, sharing your your your you know, your background, your experiences, and like I say, always always a good good time catching up with y'all. So yeah, man. This was this was episode Thomas: Hey. Malcolm: twenty five. my fault, my fault. Go ahead. If it get you I mean it may come on. Thomas: Hey, I I was just gonna say, Wesley Grammer: I Thomas: Wes, if if you wanted people to tap in, would you let let know where they can tap in, would you f follow the journey support? You Malcolm: yeah, nah, facts, facts, facts. Thomas: know. Wesley Grammer: I mean Malcolm: well actually, you my my my guy he might got be careful about by you know, giving out all the details, you know. My guy he you know. Thomas: I mean yeah yeah yeah yeah no no I say put out put out you know what I'm saying if if you wanna share. If you wanna share. Wesley Grammer: yeah, I Malcolm: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wesley Grammer: mean I'm on LinkedIn, just my name, Wesley Grammar. tap in with that. that's probably the only thing I really can't like Thomas: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: that's the only thing I really care about, honestly. Malcolm: Hey, Thomas: Moving Malcolm: it it's mostly men, it's mostly Thomas: silence. Malcolm: men that listen, so you don't have to worry. You know what I'm saying? It's it's just it's mostly guys. Wesley Grammer: but yeah, nah. I definitely appreciate y'all having me on, man. Like y'all said, we've been we've been Malcolm: You don't want you don't want to share no other handles or Thomas: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: tapped in for a while. I don't know what you're Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: talking about, but I said, Malcolm: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: we've been tapped in for a while, obviously, since freshman year. that's what five years now. So it's Malcolm: Crazy. Wesley Grammer: been a minute. Thomas: Yeah. Wesley Grammer: definitely glad we've been able to keep in contact. Definitely Proud of y'all for what y'all been able to do with this. Like I said, I'm a weekly listen listener to the podcast. Whenever y'all drop, it's definitely stuff that's important that people definitely need to be listening to and need to be kind of learning about. People need to be constantly learning and constantly like have a desire for knowledge and and the happenings around them. Because like like you said before, Thomas, if you're if you're scared of something or don't know what's happening in the world, like the best thing you can do is inform yourself. And that can drive you to do something productive to make a change about it. So definitely keep doing what y'all are doing with this. It's definitely a great platform. If you're listening, keep listening. Share with your friends. It's good information to have. Keep pushing out these guys' stuff. Black box is a is a great platform. So keep sharing that for sure. But yeah, man. Go and tap in with me on the LinkedIn that I said earlier if y'all want to reach out. But yeah, I appreciate y'all for having me. Malcolm: Appreciate you, my guy. Amen. Appreciate everybody Thomas: Yes sir, I appreciate it. Malcolm: that's that's listening in. And we'll be back with our next episode. and yeah, appreciate y'all as always. Thomas: Peace. Wesley Grammer: Peace.