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Becoming Pro-Grace: A Christian Response to Abortion (Angela Weszely) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking
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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world
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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that
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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to
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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this
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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer, and I'm
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Speaker 1: joined today by Angela Wesley, and we're going to be
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Speaker 1: talking about her new book, Becoming pro Grace, expanding the
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Speaker 1: abortion conversation beyond life versus Choice. Angel is not over
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Speaker 1: the author of the book, but she's also the CEO
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Speaker 1: and founder of pro Grace. It's an organization that really
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Speaker 1: facilitates transformative learning experiences from christ followers to break through
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Speaker 1: the abortion divibe. So the book and the ministry to
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Speaker 1: kind of go hand in hand. Welcome Angela. It's great
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Speaker 1: top the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Great to be here.
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Speaker 1: James Well, tell us a little bit about I always
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Speaker 1: like when I have author on I always like to
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Speaker 1: understand kind of where they're coming from, what brought them
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Speaker 1: to this topic, and so what was your life experience
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Speaker 1: that brought you into writing Becoming pro grace?
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Speaker 2: Very interesting. So as I was growing up, I grew
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Speaker 2: up in a household that to be Christian was to
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Speaker 2: be pro life. I didn't really, you know, question that.
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Speaker 2: I did have some tension even as a teenager hearing
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Speaker 2: it brought up in school, different things that happened, but
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Speaker 2: I didn't get involved in the issue, right. I don't
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Speaker 2: think a lot of people do, right. I was just like,
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Speaker 2: I feel a little tense about it. I'm not really
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Speaker 2: comfortable with it. It was just mainly my view. And
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Speaker 2: so I spent ten years in Christian ministry, and then
1:48
Speaker 2: we left that ministry we were with and started doing
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Speaker 2: some different sales work and different things. And when I
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Speaker 2: felt like I wanted to go back into ministry again,
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Speaker 2: I found a Christian pregnancy center that was in downtown Chicago.
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Speaker 2: And when I read what they did, they supported women
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Speaker 2: who were pregnant, and I thought, this is great, this
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Speaker 2: will be common ground, it won't be political, and so
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Speaker 2: I took that position. Actually, I took a position as
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Speaker 2: director of development twenty years ago in two thousand and five,
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Speaker 2: and quickly realized, oh, this organization is smack dab in
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Speaker 2: the middle of the debate. I had no idea when
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Speaker 2: I came in, and I had no idea how Christians
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Speaker 2: were framing this issue, especially those who were in direct
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Speaker 2: service work with women, so that journey basically was I
2:35
Speaker 2: was uncomfortable. I had trusted colleagues and wonderful people working
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Speaker 2: around me who weren't trying to do anything offensive. Their
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Speaker 2: hearts were really for helping women. I started feeling like
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Speaker 2: we are not seeing the women, like there's a definite
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Speaker 2: agenda running through here, that this is about the child,
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Speaker 2: and the way we talked to donors about it, even
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Speaker 2: the way we advertise on our website that we would
3:02
Speaker 2: be a certain place, and then when women came in,
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Speaker 2: there was more of a persuasion model that wasn't disclosed
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Speaker 2: ahead of time. Things like that made me incredibly uncomfortable
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Speaker 2: because I come from a more legalistic background and I
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Speaker 2: had been freed by grace, a true theological understanding of
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Speaker 2: the radical grace of Jesus, and I realized walking into this,
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Speaker 2: this is a very legalistic way of approaching this it's
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Speaker 2: actually not aligned with the Gospel of Grace, and that
3:30
Speaker 2: started me with a I really did start almost with
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Speaker 2: a theological deconstructing of why and trying to talk to
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Speaker 2: people around me, the board, other staff to have a
3:41
Speaker 2: different framework. And I should say this because I tried
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Speaker 2: to make changes right away. So I started leading the
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Speaker 2: organization about a year after I came in, and I
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Speaker 2: told the board I'm going to make these changes. We
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Speaker 2: need to be equally for the woman and the child.
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Speaker 2: And they were like yes, and we were all like
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Speaker 2: how hard can this be? Was incredibly difficult because what
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Speaker 2: I didn't realize is to have mental models that we
4:01
Speaker 2: don't even know where they came from. They've just been
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Speaker 2: with us or with our stream of Christianity for so
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Speaker 2: long that when someone says something different, it's like, well,
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Speaker 2: have you switched to the other side? Are you promoting
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Speaker 2: a totally different approach? And so I had to go
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Speaker 2: way back. I wrote an eight page paper that I
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Speaker 2: would send to the pastor of the Moody Church, who
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Speaker 2: was thankfully connected to our organization, and I would write
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Speaker 2: back and forth and say this is how I think
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Speaker 2: Jesus interacted with people and how he would value the
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Speaker 2: woman and child equally. You know, this is what I
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Speaker 2: want to implement through the whole organization. But it really
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Speaker 2: was theology and heart change first before we could do
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Speaker 2: any type of the direct service work. So where that
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Speaker 2: leads me to progress today is that I really started.
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Speaker 2: I wanted to see my whole team, I should say
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Speaker 2: all of us wanted to see our partner churches be
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Speaker 2: welcome spaces for women who are pregnant, whether they were
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Speaker 2: connecting from our organization or within that congregation. And so
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Speaker 2: we do. We know that everywhere is safe again well
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Speaker 2: meaning people, but are we safe for this conversation? And
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Speaker 2: that is where I started writing with a colleague that
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Speaker 2: same theology in an experiential form for anyone in the church.
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Speaker 2: It wasn't just for our direct service organization anymore. I
5:18
Speaker 2: developed a passion that we, as the Capital C Church,
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Speaker 2: could have a theological paradigm that is not tied to
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Speaker 2: either political party, but is really rooted in Jesus. And
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Speaker 2: that's why I launched tro Grace about ten years ago.
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Speaker 1: So talk a little bit about the pro Grace framework
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Speaker 1: that you've developed, because I think that is really crucial.
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Speaker 1: As again, I've had some experience in this realm and
5:44
Speaker 1: have I've found it very interesting the way very well
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Speaker 1: meaning Christians understand the abortion issue. And you know how
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Speaker 1: the Republican platforms of democratic platforms very much shaped the
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Speaker 1: discourse around it. And so I think I'm identifying some
6:02
Speaker 1: of the same things that you're identifying. Is what we
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Speaker 1: really need is a Christian mind about this, that we
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Speaker 1: can approach this issue and really have a robust theological
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Speaker 1: discourse about what's going on and see the problem beyond
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Speaker 1: the political conversations, so that really christ can govern this
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Speaker 1: whole conversation. That's a fair way to put it.
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Speaker 2: That's a beautiful way to put it. That is my heart.
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Speaker 2: And the whole reason Prograce exists because and we were
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Speaker 2: talking before the show, why you name your show Christianity
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Speaker 2: without Compromise is that you want to see Christians living
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Speaker 2: out the truth of Scripture, which is the story of
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Speaker 2: Jesus right and his whole example he showed us who
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Speaker 2: the Father is. And what I've realized along the way
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Speaker 2: is that by defaulting to primarily political positions and for
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Speaker 2: Christians to lead with I'm pro life or I'm pro
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Speaker 2: choice and then use those same words that same posture
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Speaker 2: that is compromising our faith, is compromising our Christian witness
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Speaker 2: because we have an entire canon of scripture that shows
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Speaker 2: us what God is like, and neither political party is
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Speaker 2: governed by that. They're not governed by what God is like.
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Speaker 2: To be a political party, you have to rally your followers, right,
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Speaker 2: so there has to be rhetoric. There has to be
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Speaker 2: another side, or sometimes even an enemy. And in this
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Speaker 2: particular case, the messaging goes out that you're either for
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Speaker 2: the child or for the woman, right, that's the And
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Speaker 2: actually when you think about the laws, they're viewed as
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Speaker 2: a zero sum game. There's a winner and there's a loser.
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Speaker 2: It's either legal or it's not. It's either better for
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Speaker 2: children or better for women, and so everything around that
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Speaker 2: gets framed in an either or and puts women and
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Speaker 2: children in an adversarial role, and then puts us as
7:52
Speaker 2: Christians even in adversarial roles against each other depending on
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Speaker 2: which political party we are. So that's why the BRACE
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Speaker 2: framework starts by stepping back and saying, what if we
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Speaker 2: imagined laying that down for a second. And I'm not
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Speaker 2: calling anyone to not be political or to lay down
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Speaker 2: political affiliation sure. What I'm saying is, what if we
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Speaker 2: use our imagination to think, how would Jesus interact with
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Speaker 2: this issue? What's the actual Jesus centered lens to view
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Speaker 2: this through and make that our primary affiliation lead with that,
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Speaker 2: and then make our political viewpoints secondary. What would happen?
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Speaker 2: I mean, it is kind of an experiment, right, like
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Speaker 2: what would happen? So then I don't have any questions
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Speaker 2: about that before I launch into the actual theology of
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Speaker 2: the prograce framework.
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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, I think what I
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Speaker 1: hear you saying is that really it's something that I
8:48
Speaker 1: don't know I take from Augustine, right it's about the
8:50
Speaker 1: ordering of loves and that He's got this wonderful analogy
8:53
Speaker 1: and I've said it before on the show, but it's
8:56
Speaker 1: you take all your other loves and you throw them
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Speaker 1: into the current of God's love, your love for God,
9:02
Speaker 1: and so they're immersed within that, and they're then conditioned
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Speaker 1: to buy it. They change and shift, but your love
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Speaker 1: of God stays sturdy and strong. And that's basically what
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Speaker 1: I hear you saying is let's sort of nest these
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Speaker 1: other things within a real deep loyalty and devotion to God.
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Speaker 1: And when we do that, it's not that those things
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Speaker 1: have to go away, it's that the way we interact
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Speaker 1: with them is going to change because our not even
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Speaker 1: our first loyalty, our only loyalty is to God. We're
9:37
Speaker 1: giving him all we are and have. And because we've
9:40
Speaker 1: given all that loyalty to God, the way we interact
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Speaker 1: with anything else is going to change.
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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And I would say there are so many
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Speaker 2: thoughtful Christians on both political sides that that's their intent.
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Speaker 2: We believe we're doing that. But we've only been given
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Speaker 2: these two options, right, So that's where the is is
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Speaker 2: to really try to lay them down first and think
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Speaker 2: not just our love for God, but God's love for us,
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Speaker 2: God's love for humanity. It really starts there. What does
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Speaker 2: that look like? And that's the pro grace framework is
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Speaker 2: rooted in these two theological points. The first is equal value,
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Speaker 2: equal dignity. So that's everything we've talked about. There's a
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Speaker 2: false binary of are you going to advocate for the
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Speaker 2: woman or the child? Where God is equally passionate about both,
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Speaker 2: there's equal dignity for both. If we could just start
10:31
Speaker 2: from that posture, we start to see how so many
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Speaker 2: of the political framing is not helpful because it doesn't
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Speaker 2: take that into consideration, and that in itself can be
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Speaker 2: a very uniquely Christian response is that we value the
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Speaker 2: imago day in every person equally, and we're going to
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Speaker 2: start all of our thinking, our conversations, and our engagement
10:53
Speaker 2: from that place that already shifts a ton. And then
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Speaker 2: the second theological point is grace as the path for
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Speaker 2: two transformation. And so again I do think there's a
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Speaker 2: lot of judgment. There's legalism starting even within the church,
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Speaker 2: and how we view other people who may think differently
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Speaker 2: from us or the other side politically, and to be honest,
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Speaker 2: from my experience, even ourselves, I think a lot of
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Speaker 2: this comes from not understanding grace for ourselves means that
11:22
Speaker 2: we have to pick some of these issues that we
11:24
Speaker 2: feel really Christian in right. But when we understand that
11:28
Speaker 2: God loves us exactly as we are, and we can
11:31
Speaker 2: start from this freedom of grace and have that shape
11:35
Speaker 2: every conversation and how we view every person touched by
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Speaker 2: this issue, that then is the second piece of the
11:41
Speaker 2: framework that really starts to form this uniquely Christian response
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Speaker 2: to abortion and hopefully unite us as Christians around those
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Speaker 2: things first, those shared values with Jesus as our model,
11:55
Speaker 2: following his example.
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Speaker 1: And how do you, I mean, how do you think
11:59
Speaker 1: through what's that You have a Republican and a Democrat, right,
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Speaker 1: and they're both sort of champion in these causes. How
12:07
Speaker 1: do you think about bringing those two together other than
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Speaker 1: lifting them out of a political party and back up
12:13
Speaker 1: into the body of Christ as they're animating identity. I mean,
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Speaker 1: it just seems to me that the two pillars of
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Speaker 1: that Prograce framework, the imago day and the grace that
12:27
Speaker 1: we need to give one another, that we need to
12:29
Speaker 1: give ourselves we need to give others, those two really
12:34
Speaker 1: do point backwards as opposed to embedding us within any
12:38
Speaker 1: one political party. They remind us that there has to
12:41
Speaker 1: be something prior to these arrangements that really is where
12:45
Speaker 1: we should be rooting our identities.
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Speaker 2: In Absolutely yes, and so over the years, the community
12:54
Speaker 2: that makes up pro Grace actually are Christians who are
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Speaker 2: both who can choose one of those political parties, and
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Speaker 2: so we all do with the understanding that that political
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Speaker 2: party cannot contain the heart of God. I would say
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Speaker 2: that is the first place if there are Christians who
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Speaker 2: really believe that their political party is the arm of God.
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Speaker 2: Then this is not a conversation that's going to be
13:20
Speaker 2: helpful or resonant. And I don't know how to I
13:24
Speaker 2: would know how to talk to someone, but that's the
13:26
Speaker 2: party of Christians that I talk to. Default. There's this
13:31
Speaker 2: sense of well, there's a default. I'm uncomfortable with some
13:35
Speaker 2: parts of my preferred political side, but I have to
13:39
Speaker 2: tip somewhere. That is the ideal place. That's the ideal
13:44
Speaker 2: thought process of a Christian who can say, oh, actually,
13:48
Speaker 2: this would relieve my tension that I feel about my
13:51
Speaker 2: political party if I could have my Kingdom affiliation or
13:56
Speaker 2: you know, my Christian affiliation sit above that. That actually,
14:01
Speaker 2: and again it doesn't mean that we aren't still a
14:04
Speaker 2: Democrat or Republican. It means we don't lead with that,
14:07
Speaker 2: we don't try to stir up conflict with that. We
14:10
Speaker 2: do set it down for the sake of being reformed
14:15
Speaker 2: and understanding how much we've informed by political parties instead
14:18
Speaker 2: of Jesus. So I would say, that's what we do
14:21
Speaker 2: all day long. And one of the tools is I
14:25
Speaker 2: don't tell anybody how I vote. I actually don't tell
14:28
Speaker 2: anybody how I vote. And you don't have to be
14:31
Speaker 2: that way to be pro grace. But I just found
14:33
Speaker 2: it most helpful in my position because I will not
14:37
Speaker 2: be able to talk to people if that is something
14:39
Speaker 2: I talk about. I talk about abortion all the time,
14:43
Speaker 2: and I talk about it through this theological lens and
14:47
Speaker 2: have very productive conversations. And I never asked the person
14:51
Speaker 2: I'm talking to how they vote. Now they might volunteer it.
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Speaker 2: But the second piece is to be committed to not
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Speaker 2: view my sister or brother the way I've been trained
15:01
Speaker 2: through a political party, to see them as different from
15:03
Speaker 2: me because they tip to one side politically. I really
15:06
Speaker 2: think as Christians committed to the imago day and grace,
15:10
Speaker 2: we will have more in common with each other than
15:14
Speaker 2: we will the fringes on our political party. And that
15:16
Speaker 2: I think is the challenge for Christians to see ourselves
15:20
Speaker 2: as believers first seeking this unity, and then our politics
15:25
Speaker 2: second or third or wherever that falls for different people.
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Speaker 1: Right, And like when you're I don't want to make
15:31
Speaker 1: this all about the politics, but I think it's a
15:33
Speaker 1: big part of this, So I just want to ask
15:35
Speaker 1: kind of a follow up question on it. But it
15:37
Speaker 1: strikes me that what you're talking about you know, if
15:40
Speaker 1: let's say you have a Christian's part of the pro
15:42
Speaker 1: Grace movement, they're really rooting their identity back in christ
15:45
Speaker 1: not in their political party, but they are still participating
15:47
Speaker 1: in those political parties. It seems to me that what
15:51
Speaker 1: we'd love to see happen, what I would love to
15:54
Speaker 1: see happen, is for those Christians to say, you know,
15:57
Speaker 1: let's say you're advocating for the you know, your particular
16:02
Speaker 1: party is advocating for the rights of women, right, but
16:06
Speaker 1: that there would be consideration at the policy level, an
16:10
Speaker 1: advocacy for no, it also needs to care for the child,
16:14
Speaker 1: like and the balance on the other side of we
16:17
Speaker 1: really want to care for the child, but we have
16:19
Speaker 1: to recognize that there are a lot of social and
16:22
Speaker 1: economic issues that we've got to care for if we
16:25
Speaker 1: really want to make I always go back to something
16:28
Speaker 1: my wife says, she works in hospitals a lot, and
16:30
Speaker 1: in these you know, sort of high reliability environments, they say,
16:34
Speaker 1: let's make it easy for people to make the right choice.
16:37
Speaker 1: And it feels like, you know, within that political environment,
16:40
Speaker 1: that's what we would want. We'd want Christians advocating for Yes,
16:44
Speaker 1: we want to we want to have this child protected,
16:47
Speaker 1: but we also want to make it easier for women
16:49
Speaker 1: to make the right choice. And is that sort of
16:53
Speaker 1: how this would play itself out? Am I am I
16:56
Speaker 1: catching the drift of it.
16:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great conversation because you're totally understanding.
17:02
Speaker 2: I just do want to stop on a word choice.
17:04
Speaker 2: We talked about this before the podcast. This is good
17:08
Speaker 2: even saying and I get why your wife is saying
17:11
Speaker 2: it in healthcare because that means like taking care of
17:13
Speaker 2: their diabetes or whatever. But I think, you know, helping
17:16
Speaker 2: women make the right choice is still loaded politically and
17:20
Speaker 2: has been used to a way that can feel very
17:23
Speaker 2: shaming to women. This doesn't mean we don't have ethical
17:27
Speaker 2: thoughts about abortion and we can't really talk about it.
17:29
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot in the book about this,
17:32
Speaker 2: because I have fifty thousand words to not be misunderstood,
17:37
Speaker 2: you know, I have an ethical view on the act
17:39
Speaker 2: of abortion. Christians can have an ethical view on it.
17:42
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is when we make some of these
17:44
Speaker 2: statements that we've just been conditioned to make, it sends
17:47
Speaker 2: a signal that we still are going to be pushing
17:51
Speaker 2: people in some way, or we're not truly welcoming or
17:55
Speaker 2: we're not without agenda. So the way I would frame
17:58
Speaker 2: it theologically is that if we go right back to
18:03
Speaker 2: the mystery of pregnancy and we think about God's design,
18:09
Speaker 2: he did not have to do it this way, right,
18:12
Speaker 2: we sit with the mystery of God. He could have
18:14
Speaker 2: done it a different way. But there is something we
18:17
Speaker 2: need to pause on that it's entrusted to women first
18:21
Speaker 2: of all, and secondly there's a man and a woman involved,
18:26
Speaker 2: which is also an important I mean, you can already
18:28
Speaker 2: hear what I'm touching on a lot of really important things.
18:31
Speaker 2: And women are entrusted to nurture another person. You know,
18:36
Speaker 2: they're intertwined for nine months. And the fact is that
18:40
Speaker 2: if you've ever been around someone who's pregnant, you understand
18:43
Speaker 2: anything we do to one affects the other. Right, it
18:47
Speaker 2: is this intertwined relationship. If you want to get really
18:50
Speaker 2: meta theologically, you could even start to think about what
18:53
Speaker 2: it says about all creation and how we're interdependent on
18:56
Speaker 2: each other, which is why I'm promoting this way of
18:58
Speaker 2: peace and reconciliation. So with that, I think going in
19:02
Speaker 2: with an equal value, equal dignity could completely reframe political discussions,
19:09
Speaker 2: and I am a dreamer. I could see that happening.
19:12
Speaker 2: I don't know how many years out, but I think
19:15
Speaker 2: it needs to start coming from Christians like you're saying,
19:18
Speaker 2: because I think it comes from a uniquely Christian place
19:20
Speaker 2: of saying. Listen, if we truly value both people, then
19:24
Speaker 2: how could we work together? Because both women and children
19:29
Speaker 2: deserve all these social structures you're talking about, we make
19:33
Speaker 2: it incredibly difficult to raise children. I mean, I don't
19:37
Speaker 2: know if we want to go into this, but we
19:39
Speaker 2: rank like fortieth out of forty forty countries in guaranteed
19:43
Speaker 2: maternity leave. So could Christians from both parties say wait
19:50
Speaker 2: a second enough, you know, because of the Amago Day,
19:54
Speaker 2: we're going to step in and advocate for these policies.
19:59
Speaker 2: I look to try and find common ground policies that
20:04
Speaker 2: had been passed in Congress. There is one that was
20:07
Speaker 2: passed about pregnancy and parenting, which was great, but it
20:10
Speaker 2: took like ten years because there's so little work across
20:14
Speaker 2: the aisle, and we are fighting about things that are
20:18
Speaker 2: largely irrelevant to people on the ground, saying, you know,
20:24
Speaker 2: this is all I can see to do because of
20:27
Speaker 2: all these other factors happening, and it is one of
20:29
Speaker 2: the things that makes me the most crazy. And it's
20:32
Speaker 2: why I'd like to take attention away from the political
20:35
Speaker 2: what we disagree on, and you hit it. There are
20:38
Speaker 2: so many policies we could work on together as believers
20:43
Speaker 2: that would show God's value and dignity for both people,
20:47
Speaker 2: and we just we're busy doing other things.
20:50
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this question because this is something
20:53
Speaker 1: I've thought about. You know, Jesus at one point is
20:56
Speaker 1: confronted about divorce and he's sort of respond you know,
21:00
Speaker 1: the Pharisees and the statuties are asking him, like, why
21:03
Speaker 1: did Moses tell us to get a certificate a divorce
21:05
Speaker 1: if God's against divorce? And Jesus basically says it was
21:09
Speaker 1: because of the hardness of your heart. And what it
21:11
Speaker 1: suggests to me is that the law is there in
21:14
Speaker 1: some respects to manage human sinfulness. We often talk about
21:18
Speaker 1: it as a restraint, but obviously that it can't transform
21:22
Speaker 1: the heart, and it isn't always prescribing an ideal. It's
21:26
Speaker 1: often dealing with brokenness, right, And so I'm wondering that
21:32
Speaker 1: that sort of lead in for this question is how
21:36
Speaker 1: does the Prograce framework help us recognize the limitations of
21:40
Speaker 1: the law, the limitations of the political environment, and how
21:45
Speaker 1: much how far policy can go. I think policy is important, right,
21:50
Speaker 1: laws are important, but they have a limit. And then
21:53
Speaker 1: that limit is where the church really needs to kick in.
21:56
Speaker 1: I go back to work by David Fitch. Maybe you're
21:59
Speaker 1: familiar with it, but The Great Giveaway, if you're familiar
22:02
Speaker 1: with that book, he talks about the church and how
22:04
Speaker 1: it's given away some of the things that are crucial
22:07
Speaker 1: to its witness to these different entities that are around
22:11
Speaker 1: and I think politics and he references that too. I
22:14
Speaker 1: just happen to agree with him. We tend to lean
22:17
Speaker 1: on government like and can fix everything, like if we
22:19
Speaker 1: just have the right laws and policies in place, like
22:21
Speaker 1: this will work. So how does the Prograce framework help
22:25
Speaker 1: us to sort of step back and go No, the
22:26
Speaker 1: church could really own this issue in a unique way
22:31
Speaker 1: without abandoning policy. Yeah, but using policies supplementally and where
22:36
Speaker 1: to amazing.
22:38
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, when you put that book in
22:39
Speaker 2: the show notes, I need to read that book because yeah,
22:42
Speaker 2: that is I feel like we have again, we have Jesus,
22:47
Speaker 2: the Great Lover of humanity as our example. And we
22:52
Speaker 2: have abdicated to these angry political rhetoric. I mean, it's
22:57
Speaker 2: exactly the whole progress framework is rooted in that thought
23:02
Speaker 2: that God loves people far more than either political party
23:07
Speaker 2: and as his followers, that love is what should be
23:11
Speaker 2: flowing out of us. And I go into a lot
23:16
Speaker 2: of detail in the book, but if you actually think
23:19
Speaker 2: about why the laws are needed, it's exactly what you're saying.
23:22
Speaker 2: They're managing people who are in a situation where they
23:26
Speaker 2: don't feel like there's any other option. And let me
23:28
Speaker 2: just give an example. Almost six out of ten women
23:33
Speaker 2: who have abortions already have a child. So you're talking
23:38
Speaker 2: about people that value children. Of course they already have
23:42
Speaker 2: a child, but there are so many roadblocks in the
23:45
Speaker 2: way to raising that one child that they just can't
23:49
Speaker 2: see a way to have another one. That is a
23:53
Speaker 2: very different framework. Then either political side talks about that.
23:58
Speaker 2: Christians could rally around and that and start asking questions,
24:01
Speaker 2: why do we have a society that it's so difficult
24:06
Speaker 2: to raise children? That this is what's happening. So that's
24:09
Speaker 2: a huge limitation of the law. It's allowing for something
24:12
Speaker 2: that a lot of people and I know this from
24:15
Speaker 2: personal experience and interviews, a lot of people don't want
24:18
Speaker 2: They're not growing up saying I can't wait to have
24:20
Speaker 2: my abortion. I know, I can't wait to exercise my
24:23
Speaker 2: right to choose. It's happening because there's pressures, there's blockages,
24:29
Speaker 2: there's societal realities, there's any qualities between the genders. You know,
24:35
Speaker 2: I found research in the book. There's the called the
24:38
Speaker 2: fatherhood premium and the motherhood penalty, and there's science behind
24:42
Speaker 2: In the workplace, men make more money as they become
24:46
Speaker 2: dads trajectively over their whole career. Women make less when
24:49
Speaker 2: they become mothers. I mean, these are things all Christians
24:53
Speaker 2: should be deeply concerned about because we're not starting on
24:57
Speaker 2: an equal playing field in this co of having children.
25:02
Speaker 2: The second limitation of the law, I think goes back
25:04
Speaker 2: to theology, which is what is the whole gospel and
25:08
Speaker 2: Paul talk about the law was just in place to
25:12
Speaker 2: lead us to Christ. It can't actually change parts. You know,
25:15
Speaker 2: It's exactly what you said, it's a guardrail. And so
25:18
Speaker 2: just again owning this piece of our faith that says
25:23
Speaker 2: Grace and Jesus are far surpass the law, they're the
25:26
Speaker 2: fulfillment of the law. We've got to be thinking above laws.
25:30
Speaker 2: It's not to say laws aren't important, you know, not
25:33
Speaker 2: to say we shouldn't be involved in policy, but you're
25:36
Speaker 2: exactly right to frame it as limitation and what sits
25:40
Speaker 2: higher and that is actually caring for people. And it's
25:45
Speaker 2: the similar thought to what your wife was saying. Caring
25:47
Speaker 2: for people so that they have what they need brings
25:51
Speaker 2: better outcomes than just not working together as a community
25:55
Speaker 2: and then just trying to limit everything with laws. Right,
25:59
Speaker 2: It's why we care for people who can't afford food.
26:02
Speaker 2: You know, what if people were breaking into grocery stores
26:05
Speaker 2: and we were like, oh, we really got to legislate
26:07
Speaker 2: around that, it's like, well, let's just make sure everybody
26:09
Speaker 2: has food. You know, if we look at that first,
26:12
Speaker 2: the human condition, what's happening for people, much better outcomes
26:16
Speaker 2: than just legislation.
26:18
Speaker 1: So no, it's really an interesting problem. And I will
26:22
Speaker 1: say I've shared this story with others, but my wife
26:25
Speaker 1: and I when we were when she was pregnant with
26:27
Speaker 1: our first child, the doctor and ended up being a misdiagnosis,
26:31
Speaker 1: but diagnosed them with a genetic condition and actually referred
26:34
Speaker 1: as to a hospital where we could get an abortion. Yeah,
26:37
Speaker 1: we were at a Catholic healthcare system and kind of
26:41
Speaker 1: sent us over to a different place. We obviously opted
26:43
Speaker 1: not to do that, and our son was fine. But
26:47
Speaker 1: I will say, like we had, we felt that pressure.
26:51
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things is we've reflected
26:54
Speaker 1: back on it has been you know, number one, you know,
26:57
Speaker 1: we're calling people to pray, we're asking questions, we're investigating
27:01
Speaker 1: as much as we can about what could be. But
27:05
Speaker 1: we also had a social network of people. My wife
27:08
Speaker 1: was studying to be a you know, she was working
27:11
Speaker 1: as a pharmacist at the time, so she had a
27:13
Speaker 1: professional career. I was pursuing advanced degree in theology. We
27:17
Speaker 1: knew we had sort of a social structure. We were
27:19
Speaker 1: going to be okay, our finances were in order. Like,
27:21
Speaker 1: we knew this would be hard no matter where it went,
27:24
Speaker 1: but we felt we had what we needed to actually
27:29
Speaker 1: do it. And I think as I've reflected back on that,
27:33
Speaker 1: I would say back and say, I can't imagine the
27:36
Speaker 1: immensity of the stress and pressure for someone who doesn't
27:40
Speaker 1: have those other pieces in mind. Yes, I would also
27:44
Speaker 1: just be honest and say I think it's a horrible
27:46
Speaker 1: way for me to even be thinking through it, because
27:48
Speaker 1: you start to start like kind of putting your faith
27:50
Speaker 1: in the stuff that you have as opposed to recognizing
27:54
Speaker 1: that just it's the wrong theological way to think about it.
27:58
Speaker 1: It's a factor. Sure God is provided you with these things,
28:01
Speaker 1: but I think it's a really bad way for us
28:03
Speaker 1: to start those conversations. But either way, my personal connection
28:06
Speaker 1: with that suggests that we do need to look a
28:10
Speaker 1: little bit more broadly and think about how we can
28:13
Speaker 1: support people going through this so they don't have to
28:16
Speaker 1: look at their own personal finances, their own personal capacity.
28:20
Speaker 1: And is this possible for me personally? It would be
28:24
Speaker 1: great if we had like a folk you know, takes
28:28
Speaker 1: a village right to sort of support people. And so
28:33
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you how does the Prograce sort of
28:36
Speaker 1: framework and your ministry in particular, how does it does
28:40
Speaker 1: it create that sort of broader community. What does that
28:43
Speaker 1: look like?
28:44
Speaker 2: That's a great question. And by the way, you're basically
28:47
Speaker 2: describing the early Church, so again we have the rich
28:50
Speaker 2: theology caring for people. So thank you for that so lot,
28:57
Speaker 2: so much in what you said. So I want to
29:00
Speaker 2: I want to put a bookmark in how prograce helps
29:03
Speaker 2: facilitate those communities for sure. Can I ask you something first,
29:07
Speaker 2: Can you remember how you felt getting diagnosis for a
29:12
Speaker 2: pregnancy that was so altered from your wife's and your dreams,
29:18
Speaker 2: your even your own reproductive story about yourself. Can you
29:22
Speaker 2: talk about the feelings that you felt in that time.
29:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was completely confused, completely frustrated, completely angry because
29:34
Speaker 1: and it was a buddy of mine. I called him
29:38
Speaker 1: up and I kind of told him what was going on,
29:40
Speaker 1: and he just told me, he said, this thing sticks
29:43
Speaker 1: with me, right, He said, you need to more in
29:46
Speaker 1: the life of the child that you thought you were
29:47
Speaker 1: going to have and embrace the life of the child
29:50
Speaker 1: that God has given you. And that sort of changed
29:53
Speaker 1: everything for me, not just you know, it wasn't just
29:57
Speaker 1: advice that I was given that changed that would have
30:00
Speaker 1: changed had my son been born with the problem. It
30:02
Speaker 1: actually changed the way I thought about my son period. Well,
30:08
Speaker 1: I think it would like I think I would have
30:09
Speaker 1: been like a devil dad who wanted to live vicarious
30:13
Speaker 1: through through my son had I not had that early
30:15
Speaker 1: experience with it. Yeah, So I think it was a
30:19
Speaker 1: time just the advice you have to mourn it. There's
30:22
Speaker 1: a morning that takes place. It's a deep, deep sorrow
30:25
Speaker 1: about what's going on amidst all of the pressure and
30:29
Speaker 1: confusion and stress and everything else. So you're kind of
30:33
Speaker 1: a big ball of lament at that point.
30:35
Speaker 2: Yes, you're a huge ball of emotions. And this is
30:39
Speaker 2: another limitation of the political debate, is it's not the
30:43
Speaker 2: weight of the emotional impact of getting pregnant raising a
30:49
Speaker 2: child is not talked about enough. And so that's why
30:53
Speaker 2: there are all these practical things you touched on this
30:57
Speaker 2: deep emotional dark knight of the piece. And we've done
31:02
Speaker 2: four bodies of research of women who faced unintended pregnancy. Now,
31:07
Speaker 2: these women made all three different choices parenting, adoption, abortion,
31:12
Speaker 2: either with this pregnancy or other ones you know, in
31:14
Speaker 2: the study and it was qualitative interviews to really get
31:18
Speaker 2: to the emotional reality. This doesn't say it's the emotional
31:22
Speaker 2: reality for everyone, but these results, and it's been over
31:25
Speaker 2: ten years, these four different bodies of research, they were
31:28
Speaker 2: so consistent that the folks conducting the research were like,
31:32
Speaker 2: we can say that this is the primary emotional experience
31:36
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, and those the three emotions
31:39
Speaker 2: are panic incredible panic. You described it as confusion, but
31:45
Speaker 2: right wo panic also be Yeah. The second for them
31:48
Speaker 2: is isolation. So it's an incredibly isolating experience. Don't feel
31:53
Speaker 2: like they can tell their support systems, so their parents,
31:56
Speaker 2: their partner. It's incredibly like I'm alone with the weight
32:01
Speaker 2: of this. Whether they are or not, it feels that way.
32:03
Speaker 2: And then the final is shame. And that's a very
32:06
Speaker 2: identity shattering, almost like I have to mourn the person
32:10
Speaker 2: I thought I was. I'm no longer that person going forward.
32:14
Speaker 2: And it's not what people think about, like, oh, that's selfish.
32:17
Speaker 2: They're not going to be able to do what they
32:19
Speaker 2: thought they could do about a child. It's an actual
32:22
Speaker 2: identity because there is so much shame of a single
32:26
Speaker 2: person raising kids or different things in our narrative, we
32:28
Speaker 2: don't even realize. It's like I didn't think I would
32:33
Speaker 2: be My life is over. I have to reimagine who
32:36
Speaker 2: I am. I have to think if I can provide
32:38
Speaker 2: a future for this child, and it all has to
32:41
Speaker 2: happen by myself in an incredible emotionally shut down stage
32:47
Speaker 2: within a matter of a couple of weeks, and I
32:49
Speaker 2: think to hold the reality of that experience and to
32:54
Speaker 2: step into that as Jesus did with empathy and compassion
32:57
Speaker 2: and understanding for what that is. Likee we can pull
33:01
Speaker 2: us out of our political sides and say what do
33:04
Speaker 2: we have as Christians to listen? So that is one
33:08
Speaker 2: piece of what people who are living out and working
33:13
Speaker 2: out the progress framework is a much higher sensitivity to
33:17
Speaker 2: the reality for people with a lived experience. And the
33:21
Speaker 2: problem is in politics it can turn into an issue.
33:24
Speaker 2: We can talk about it like it's an issue, and
33:27
Speaker 2: the fact of the matter is, you know, it's one
33:29
Speaker 2: in four women will have an abortion in their lifetime.
33:32
Speaker 2: So chances are we're spouting this stuff to someone who
33:36
Speaker 2: had this experience directly, or their child did, or their
33:39
Speaker 2: partner did, and we're just shutting people out. They can't
33:43
Speaker 2: bring this experience because we're talking about it up here
33:46
Speaker 2: at the head level instead of living where Jesus does
33:50
Speaker 2: with this reality. So I just wanted to point that
33:53
Speaker 2: out since you had that experience.
33:54
Speaker 1: No, it's really helpful and just a clarification on the studies.
33:58
Speaker 1: Were they primarily of women, because I could see that
34:01
Speaker 1: the emotional response being drastically different between male and female
34:05
Speaker 1: because no matter how you slice it, I was. I
34:11
Speaker 1: was a supporter in that whole thing for nine months,
34:14
Speaker 1: I was going to be a supporter. I wasn't feeling
34:16
Speaker 1: any of that. My wife was. And so I could
34:20
Speaker 1: definitely see women responding in it, even almost a deeper
34:24
Speaker 1: way because it's happening to them in their own bodies.
34:29
Speaker 1: So was the research mostly on women or to look
34:32
Speaker 1: at women and men?
34:33
Speaker 2: Great question? So this research was all on women? I
34:37
Speaker 2: have another I've been involved in understanding another study that
34:43
Speaker 2: did involve men as well. And so two just really
34:45
Speaker 2: short interesting things about this.
34:47
Speaker 1: Yeah.
34:48
Speaker 2: One is in the study of all women, they didn't
34:51
Speaker 2: even mention the partner at all, So even when they
34:54
Speaker 2: talked about being pregnant, it was almost like they got
34:56
Speaker 2: pregnant by themselves. They made the horrible decision themselves. It's
35:00
Speaker 2: really heartbreaking. So that's that isolation. Not only is she
35:04
Speaker 2: carrying more, she feels like he's it's her, And that's
35:07
Speaker 2: this cultural narrative that it's all on the woman. And
35:11
Speaker 2: so in the studies that the other organization did, the
35:15
Speaker 2: men are feeling their own version like you said of
35:18
Speaker 2: you know, panic, isolation, confusion, and there's this wall then
35:23
Speaker 2: because she's feeling like she has to carry it all.
35:26
Speaker 2: He wants to support her but doesn't know how, and
35:29
Speaker 2: so in most cases it created a divide between the couple,
35:34
Speaker 2: which is we don't Again, we don't have a framework.
35:36
Speaker 2: And there's an essay in the book by a psychologist
35:39
Speaker 2: who says, we have no framework for men to process
35:42
Speaker 2: their grief over reproductive issues, and so they're much slower
35:46
Speaker 2: to process it, where the women are much faster. And
35:48
Speaker 2: so again there's just this divide between the genders that
35:51
Speaker 2: I would argue could also be healed by Christ if
35:54
Speaker 2: we would just pay attention to the emotional reality. And
35:58
Speaker 2: I know it's challenging for a lot of women to
36:01
Speaker 2: think about inviting men into this conversation. I get that,
36:05
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you get that men have done some
36:09
Speaker 2: incredibly horrible things around not listening to women or you know,
36:14
Speaker 2: every time I watch a movie where the woman is
36:15
Speaker 2: ostracized for the pregnancy and the man is just living
36:18
Speaker 2: his life, right, I mean, there's just so much baggage
36:21
Speaker 2: going on. At the same time, we can respect that
36:24
Speaker 2: and hold that and understand when that's hard. I think too.
36:28
Speaker 2: Truths can be true. It's also true that we won't
36:31
Speaker 2: see the healing we want as the body of Christ
36:33
Speaker 2: unless both genders are welcomed into the conversation. And I
36:37
Speaker 2: think men can do it with a real sense of
36:39
Speaker 2: humility and respect. And you're not taking it personally right now.
36:43
Speaker 2: I said, it's hard for men. And you're hosting this podcast.
36:47
Speaker 2: You are modeling exactly what men can do to bring
36:50
Speaker 2: a healthy framework. You're listening to women. You're wanting to understand.
36:54
Speaker 2: But we need to be advocating together for this deeper understanding.
37:00
Speaker 1: No, And I think it's interesting because I mean, even
37:05
Speaker 1: as my wife is going so she we've had three
37:07
Speaker 1: biological children, the second two or twins, and so it's
37:13
Speaker 1: always fun when my camera does that. We're just going
37:14
Speaker 1: to leave that alone. Yeah, AI fun. But we've had
37:21
Speaker 1: so we've had you know, she's gone through two pregnancies,
37:24
Speaker 1: and I could always escape, Like if it got too stressful,
37:29
Speaker 1: I could leave and I got to go to work,
37:31
Speaker 1: and I you know, I still got to go work
37:32
Speaker 1: out or whatever it was. My body wasn't changing the
37:35
Speaker 1: way hers was, right, and so it was just different.
37:40
Speaker 1: It was very, very different. And to process some of
37:43
Speaker 1: those things, I got to be isolated from it. Even
37:45
Speaker 1: if I'm just sleeping in the same bed with her.
37:47
Speaker 1: I'm isolated from it. She's got something, you know, growing
37:50
Speaker 1: inside of her that she's dealing with. So I think,
37:54
Speaker 1: you know, overall, when I look at the landscape of
37:58
Speaker 1: this relationship between men and women, I get the complexities
38:01
Speaker 1: of it. I don't know, I'm surely I'm guarantee I'm
38:04
Speaker 1: not the one to solve it, but I understand the
38:06
Speaker 1: complexity of it, and I could see why it seems
38:10
Speaker 1: a lot of times like men maybe being callous about it,
38:14
Speaker 1: when really they're probably just trying to figure out how
38:17
Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, you know, callousness, but.
38:23
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, anyway to recognize that and to again
38:28
Speaker 2: going back to God's design, He designed women to do this.
38:32
Speaker 2: We are very strong in an amazing way that we
38:35
Speaker 2: can do it. We do go through a lot, and
38:37
Speaker 2: he didn't design us to do it alone. So he
38:41
Speaker 2: designed it to do it within family, within community, and
38:43
Speaker 2: when that's not there for women. To your earlier point,
38:47
Speaker 2: what type of community is the Church of Jesus going
38:50
Speaker 2: to be? So when you asked about the progress approach
38:53
Speaker 2: of the progress community, where we have landed is that
38:56
Speaker 2: our calling, our mission is incredibly arrow it's to help
39:01
Speaker 2: Christians have a different paradigm, to think differently, to talk differently.
39:07
Speaker 2: And then what flows out of that is Christians starting
39:10
Speaker 2: to engage differently naturally in their family where it comes up,
39:14
Speaker 2: but wanting to engage more, which is fantastic. We need
39:17
Speaker 2: more Christians engaging in the issue, so we partner with
39:21
Speaker 2: and refer to trusted direct service organizations who are already
39:26
Speaker 2: doing that work. So what I found is there's a
39:28
Speaker 2: lot of Christians seeking to make our society more just
39:34
Speaker 2: for pregnant women before, during, and after pregnancy. There's a
39:38
Speaker 2: lot of people doing that in a lot of different organizations,
39:41
Speaker 2: and I was part of one of them. After we
39:44
Speaker 2: switch the pregnancy organization, I should say that's the end
39:46
Speaker 2: of the story. We change the entire approach to be
39:49
Speaker 2: one of listening, advocacy, equal value, no politics, and I
39:54
Speaker 2: love that type of work, and we work with other
39:57
Speaker 2: organizations that do that. They're part of our learning community.
40:00
Speaker 2: But then we also refer to trusted organizations that we
40:04
Speaker 2: know are doing this work in a non political, Jesus
40:08
Speaker 2: centered way, because I believe when we unlock the way
40:13
Speaker 2: Christians think and talk, we're going to see so many
40:15
Speaker 2: more Christians wanting to engage, and I want to keep
40:19
Speaker 2: connecting them to these organizations that are always doing also
40:22
Speaker 2: always doing that, already doing that great work because our
40:26
Speaker 2: plate is full with the paradigm shift, and then I
40:29
Speaker 2: think the paradigm shift will lead to so much fruit. Again,
40:33
Speaker 2: I'm a dreamer, so I feel like I can see
40:36
Speaker 2: all these things that could happen, but I'm not going
40:38
Speaker 2: to be the one to do them. We're going to
40:39
Speaker 2: lock arms with other people and churches as well. We've
40:43
Speaker 2: had some incredible churches. There was a group meeting at
40:46
Speaker 2: one church that had the church had a school. This
40:50
Speaker 2: is when I was at the Pregnancy Organization. We would
40:51
Speaker 2: have churches run these support groups, which is a great model,
40:54
Speaker 2: and there are organizations doing that, but this particular church
40:57
Speaker 2: wanted to figure out a way to really be with
40:59
Speaker 2: and for the women, and so they were scholarshipping them
41:02
Speaker 2: to their school, their daycare, and their school. Like what
41:04
Speaker 2: do you usually what a unique thing a Christian you know,
41:08
Speaker 2: a church can do. And that's why it looks different
41:10
Speaker 2: for every church. But the Prograce framework was actually awakened
41:15
Speaker 2: out of having these support groups for women in churches
41:19
Speaker 2: of the women we were working with at the pregnancy organization,
41:22
Speaker 2: watching what was happening as they were welcomed in. So
41:25
Speaker 2: the whole dream started with that happening, women being welcomed
41:30
Speaker 2: and these needs being met. But our calling is way
41:33
Speaker 2: upstream with hey, let's get the Christians community acting more
41:39
Speaker 2: like Jesus, and then those things will flow out of us.
41:42
Speaker 2: They absolutely will.
41:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think it's actually
41:47
Speaker 1: the right approach because on some level we had to
41:49
Speaker 1: have the up you know, this has to bubble up
41:51
Speaker 1: from the bottom and come down from the top, right,
41:54
Speaker 1: Like it has to be sort of a multi angle
41:56
Speaker 1: kind of thing, because I can envision the conversations you
41:59
Speaker 1: have about pro grace with people, and I mean, I'll say,
42:04
Speaker 1: even you know, just the comment you made about, you know,
42:06
Speaker 1: don't use the right choice language, It's like I hear that,
42:11
Speaker 1: and I appreciate it, and I understand what you're saying,
42:14
Speaker 1: and I can see how we could sort of explain
42:16
Speaker 1: that sort of deep theological understanding of pregnancy and you know,
42:21
Speaker 1: birth and union between man and woman. And then and
42:25
Speaker 1: then I sit back and I say, well, it's really
42:27
Speaker 1: a deeply sort of ingrained conviction of mine right that
42:30
Speaker 1: I'm expressing there, And so how you know, I can
42:34
Speaker 1: only envision the difficulty you have going into someone and saying, hey,
42:40
Speaker 1: we've got this new Prograce framework. I can almost see
42:42
Speaker 1: some people going, we're already doing that, right, yeah, And
42:50
Speaker 1: so how do you what do you find as the
42:55
Speaker 1: most challenging aspect of your work and you know, give
43:00
Speaker 1: listeners an idea of how they can rethink toward the
43:05
Speaker 1: Prograce framework. Here's we kind of come to a close.
43:09
Speaker 2: Now, that's what a loaded question. Wow. And one thing
43:14
Speaker 2: would be, you know, one difficulty would be being misunderstood
43:17
Speaker 2: because I wasn't saying with your language change that you
43:21
Speaker 2: can't hold these convictions. It's more just that's not sacred
43:25
Speaker 2: language like that didn't come from the Bible. So it's
43:28
Speaker 2: just like, let's just take out all the language that
43:31
Speaker 2: can be misunderstood and let's communicate our conviction the same way.
43:35
Speaker 2: So that is one challenge is being under misunderstood with
43:39
Speaker 2: that and people thinking they have to I'm at that
43:43
Speaker 2: prograce is asking them to change either their ethical view
43:47
Speaker 2: on abortion or their political view. We aren't. We're inviting,
43:51
Speaker 2: and this is hard for people. There's no framework for this,
43:54
Speaker 2: because again it's such a strong mental model. You either
43:57
Speaker 2: are pro life or you are pro choice. You're with
43:59
Speaker 2: me or you're against me. There is no mental model
44:02
Speaker 2: for an invitation to gently lay those down and just
44:07
Speaker 2: imagine how would Jesus be interacting if you were here.
44:12
Speaker 2: That is probably the most difficult thing. And with that,
44:16
Speaker 2: I would also say part of our mental model is, oh, great,
44:20
Speaker 2: how do I go help other people? You know? This
44:22
Speaker 2: whole idea of direct service is also a very strong
44:25
Speaker 2: mental model. There are people who are very close to
44:29
Speaker 2: me who still think after ten years that prograce works
44:32
Speaker 2: directly with women experiencing pregnancy, and I can't and I
44:37
Speaker 2: can't get that mental model, you know, because that is
44:40
Speaker 2: what we think is so getting people to understand the
44:43
Speaker 2: church matters. What matters is the church acting like Jesus,
44:47
Speaker 2: that the goal of a pro grace approach is to
44:50
Speaker 2: look more like Jesus full stop, and for people to
44:53
Speaker 2: really trust that well, first to understand why it's important,
44:57
Speaker 2: but to also trust that that we're you know, it's
44:59
Speaker 2: like do you have a secret. That's kind of why
45:02
Speaker 2: I just mentioned right choice, because there are progressives or
45:05
Speaker 2: people on the left it would hear that and think, oh,
45:07
Speaker 2: Prograce has an agenda because she just agreed with them
45:10
Speaker 2: that there's a right choice. And it happens on both sides,
45:13
Speaker 2: right people think there's an agenda for people to really believe. No,
45:18
Speaker 2: all that pro Grace is doing is inviting people into
45:20
Speaker 2: a space where we can ask how can we be
45:22
Speaker 2: more like Jesus. It does take people a while to
45:25
Speaker 2: get it, to trust us, to kind of process it.
45:30
Speaker 2: And so that's why I wrote a book, was to
45:31
Speaker 2: have a longer form and we have a course as well,
45:34
Speaker 2: because it is hard. Even we've had even a great conversation,
45:37
Speaker 2: I'm sure people still have questions. So yeah, I just
45:40
Speaker 2: have to be patient. I'm not patient. That's the hardest
45:43
Speaker 2: thing about my work is I have to trust that
45:45
Speaker 2: it's God working. And if we just keep saying this
45:47
Speaker 2: over and over, people do eventually say, oh my gosh,
45:51
Speaker 2: I've been waiting for this, thank you, But it can
45:54
Speaker 2: sometimes take a while.
45:55
Speaker 1: So but I think it's sort of what you're talking
45:58
Speaker 1: about resonates I did. I mentioned I did a lot
46:00
Speaker 1: of work on politics over the last couple of years,
46:02
Speaker 1: and one of the things that I had trouble with
46:04
Speaker 1: is sort of what you're describing. And people would hear
46:06
Speaker 1: me talking about, look, we need to back this up,
46:09
Speaker 1: nest it underneath our vocation to point to and glorify God,
46:14
Speaker 1: and that may mean that we set down our political tools,
46:17
Speaker 1: occasionally exercise restraint, you know, all these different things. People
46:21
Speaker 1: heard me saying, don't participate in politics, right, but that
46:24
Speaker 1: wasn't what I was saying. And so when I was
46:27
Speaker 1: sort of had a I don't. I wouldn't call it
46:29
Speaker 1: a debate, but it was kind of a debate, and
46:31
Speaker 1: the gentleman across the table was saying, you know, you're
46:34
Speaker 1: if you're saying you shouldn't participate in politics, that's crazy.
46:37
Speaker 1: And I just said, look, I go look, my wife
46:40
Speaker 1: and I just adopted. Have you adopted? He's kind of
46:45
Speaker 1: like no, And I'm like, I'm not sitting here telling
46:48
Speaker 1: you you should. I'm just not. I wouldn't. That's crazy,
46:55
Speaker 1: So why are you doing it to me?
46:57
Speaker 2: Wow?
46:57
Speaker 1: Like there's an individual discernment that we have to go
47:00
Speaker 1: through on some of these things. And I think that's
47:02
Speaker 1: really part of what you're saying, is like, let's get
47:05
Speaker 1: to that point where we can reimagine things and we
47:08
Speaker 1: don't have to be red or blue, right, Like, let's
47:13
Speaker 1: just pull it back and now we're discerning. Now we
47:16
Speaker 1: can come up with maybe different actions that we can't
47:18
Speaker 1: see right now because we're so blinded. You know, we're
47:21
Speaker 1: standing behind the elephant or the donkey and we just
47:23
Speaker 1: can't see it exactly exactly.
47:26
Speaker 2: Yes, And the thing that the elephant the donkey keep
47:29
Speaker 2: us from from talking about is this Amago Day that
47:33
Speaker 2: Christians could be united around. But if we keep thinking
47:36
Speaker 2: that our brother and sister who's on the other side
47:38
Speaker 2: is either anti child or anti woman, and we don't
47:41
Speaker 2: start extending the benefit of the doubt that you know,
47:44
Speaker 2: every thoughtful Christian values the Imago Day and everyone you know,
47:48
Speaker 2: that's the problem here, is the actual not just that
47:52
Speaker 2: it's politics. It's the way the politics are framed up
47:57
Speaker 2: keep us from understanding each other and make us think
47:59
Speaker 2: the worst about each other, when again, I really do
48:01
Speaker 2: believe like you and I have the same commitment to
48:04
Speaker 2: the Imago Day. We don't have to tell each other
48:07
Speaker 2: how we vote. There's so much that we can I
48:09
Speaker 2: think this is what we're just trying to call people into.
48:12
Speaker 2: It's not just an invitation to be wishy washy. There's
48:14
Speaker 2: this there's these core theological tenants that run through the middle,
48:18
Speaker 2: but it's asking God to be bigger. We're trying to
48:22
Speaker 2: make God bigger into how he could creatively help us
48:25
Speaker 2: solve some of these problems. To your point, acting like
48:29
Speaker 2: a Christian first, not a RHETORICU. So yeah, yeah, I
48:34
Speaker 2: love that great discipleship will.
48:36
Speaker 1: The discipleship will open up opportunities for us. And I
48:40
Speaker 1: always go to that verse in Ephesians. God can do
48:42
Speaker 1: abundantly more than we could ever ask or think. That's
48:45
Speaker 1: what I think discipleship opens up for us. It opens
48:48
Speaker 1: us up to the opportunities God provides for us to
48:50
Speaker 1: participate in building His kingdom in ways we can never
48:54
Speaker 1: ask or think.
48:55
Speaker 2: Amen. And it's it's through His power that works within us.
48:59
Speaker 2: So there's this partnership that he's calling us into. It's
49:03
Speaker 2: beautiful and it's actually how I close the book that
49:06
Speaker 2: passage from the message, So I love it too. That
49:09
Speaker 2: is the dream. Yeah, we're on the same page.
49:13
Speaker 1: Well, Angela, this has been great. We're kind of up
49:15
Speaker 1: on time. I want to respect your time. Give people
49:18
Speaker 1: where they can find the book and also learn about prograce.
49:22
Speaker 1: Your ministry.
49:24
Speaker 2: Absolutely So. Prograce is at prograce dot org and the
49:28
Speaker 2: book is there. It's also on Amazon, and I will
49:31
Speaker 2: just say if you are an Amazon purchaser, that's the
49:34
Speaker 2: only way you can review it is it people purchase it.
49:36
Speaker 2: So if people want to like get exposed to more
49:38
Speaker 2: people and they're thinking about buying it, you can buy
49:40
Speaker 2: it there and review it. But go to Prograce for
49:43
Speaker 2: different ways you can enter the conversation because we have
49:45
Speaker 2: a lot of different resources. Not everyone wants to take
49:47
Speaker 2: a course or read a book, but there's a way
49:49
Speaker 2: to start the conversation wherever you're at, wherever your curiosity
49:53
Speaker 2: level is. So thank you.
49:55
Speaker 1: I'll include those in the show notes. And just a
49:57
Speaker 1: reminder for everybody. I want you to go to Amazon
49:59
Speaker 1: and review the book after you've read it. But I
50:02
Speaker 1: also want you to purchase this off IVP. They give
50:04
Speaker 1: us a twenty percent discount and so you can use
50:06
Speaker 1: the code in the in the link, So buy it
50:09
Speaker 1: off iv Press and then head over to Amazon and
50:11
Speaker 1: give it a review.
50:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have every good Reads, so you can go
50:14
Speaker 2: to good Reads without reading it buy it from I
50:17
Speaker 2: love IVP. I didn't realize they did that, so.
50:19
Speaker 1: Yay, Yeah, yeah, they're really cool with that. It's been
50:23
Speaker 1: awesome to have IVP authors on and so But anyway, Angela,
50:28
Speaker 1: this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you
50:30
Speaker 1: coming on talking about this, appreciate your ministry a great deal,
50:32
Speaker 1: and I'm just excited to see what the future holds
50:35
Speaker 1: for you.
50:35
Speaker 2: So thanks for being Thanks James, I love what you're doing.
50:38
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, We'll take care and we'll see you
50:41
Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care everyone.
50:43
Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the
50:45
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
50:47
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
50:50
Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
50:54
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.