Latest / Go Wildly Podcast / 50 Years on the River: Whitewater, Dam Fights & the Klamath with Bill Cross | Go Wildly Podcast

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50 Years on the River: Whitewater, Dam Fights & the Klamath with Bill Cross | Go Wildly Podcast · Go Wildly Podcast

• 0:01
  Welcome to Season 2 of Go Wildly podcast.
• 0:04
  We are Emily and Heather, 2 childhood friends who carry a
• 0:07
  mic into wild places like rivers, trails, and forests with
• 0:11
  wild people to host raw, honest conversations about adventure,
• 0:16
  healing, identity, and the transformative power of nature.
• 0:20
  In this season, we're centering the voices of people who call
• 0:23
  Southern Oregon home, outdoor enthusiasts and outdoor
• 0:26
  professionals. Lives have been shaped, changed
• 0:29
  or are continually influenced by time outside come along as
• 0:33
  together we go wildly. Hey, you wildly wonder.
• 0:39
  Thank you so very much for listening to the podcast.
• 0:41
  It means the world to us. OK, add a little mission, pause
• 0:45
  the podcast right here. Make sure that you're subscribed
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  to this guy. OK?
• 0:50
  It's going to be a fun time over here.
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  appreciate you doing that. Thank you so very much.
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  Also, little tidbit over on Instagram.
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  We're having so much fun over there lots of behind the scene
• 1:09
  footage, some POV's, just some fun unhinged content.
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  So don't forget to follow us over there OK back to the show
• 1:19
  guys uphill only oh until we lost their gloves, But how did
• 1:25
  they know I come back for them? How did they know I needed any
• 1:27
  my? Gloves.
• 1:28
  Yeah, those look like kid gloves.
• 1:30
  There. Oh, hey there.
• 1:35
  Good afternoon, good evening and good morning.
• 1:38
  Today on Go Wildly, we are very excited to be joined by Bill
• 1:42
  Cross. Bill has been running rivers and
• 1:46
  fighting to protect them for nearly 50 years.
• 1:49
  His whitewater journey started in 1977 when my dad talked him
• 1:54
  into taking a 26 day whitewater school, and he's basically never
• 1:59
  left the river since. Over the decades, Bill has
• 2:02
  worked as a professional guide, trip leader and instructor,
• 2:06
  running rivers in just about everything imaginal imaginable,
• 2:10
  including rafts, kayaks, canoes, drift boats, pack rafts, inner
• 2:14
  tubes, even an inflatable alligator, and once a highway
• 2:18
  sign very. We might get to.
• 2:19
  That very curious about that. But his legacy goes beyond river
• 2:24
  miles. Bill's conservation work began
• 2:26
  during the campaign to save California's Stanislaus River in
• 2:29
  the 1970s and has continued through dam fights, dam fights
• 2:35
  and re licensing efforts on rivers like the Klamath Rogue,
• 2:39
  American Tuolumne, Kern and McLeod.
• 2:43
  He's worked closely with American Whitewater, aptly
• 2:46
  wearing their shirt today. I like that.
• 2:49
  Including efforts tied to the recent Klamath Dam removal.
• 2:53
  Bill lives in Ashland and is currently working on an
• 2:56
  instructional guide to whitewater rafting.
• 2:59
  Still teaching, still advocating, still showing up for
• 3:02
  the river. We are very excited to talk with
• 3:05
  Bill about a lifetime on the water and what it really means
• 3:08
  to stand up for the rivers that shape us.
• 3:10
  Thank you for joining us today, Bill.
• 3:12
  Thank you for having me. It's really nice to have your
• 3:14
  voice and your legacy here. It's.
• 3:16
  Exciting to be here. Yay.
• 3:17
  OK, I'm. Going to mess.
• 3:19
  Around a little. Bit sorry, I think that'll be
• 3:21
  that'll be good, good, OK. And we are here up in the
• 3:24
  Ashland watershed on the White Rabbit Trail.
• 3:28
  We're going to go for a little walk and have a little sit and
• 3:31
  do the little thing that we do. Woot, woot.
• 3:34
  Yay. OK, it's our afternoon and we've
• 3:39
  just Heather and I have just had lunch and so we're we're feeling
• 3:44
  the the food from the afternoon Co.
• 3:46
  OP, I feel life coming back into me.
• 3:49
  Good. Now that we're in before now
• 3:51
  that we're back outside. And yeah.
• 3:53
  Back, back on the trail. I wasn't expecting it to be like
• 3:57
  more chilly up here, so that was kind of cool.
• 4:01
  Quite a bit of elevation coming up from town.
• 4:03
  Yeah, yeah. What is the difference between
• 4:05
  like downtown Ashland and up here?
• 4:07
  Do we? I don't know.
• 4:08
  I'm going to guess 5-6 hundred feet.
• 4:11
  OK, yeah, like that. Wow.
• 4:14
  And we were at Acid Castles for our morning interview, so.
• 4:19
  We were up. A little a little high, but not
• 4:23
  not this high. So Bill, I'm obviously very
• 4:28
  curious how you met my dad and how he convinced you into a 26
• 4:34
  day whitewater school. So in 1977, which is the year I
• 4:40
  graduated high school, my parents, we had done a couple of
• 4:47
  raft trips as commercial customers and they kind of let
• 4:52
  me pick a third trip. They could see I was interested.
• 4:57
  So I did some research. This is kind of where I was
• 5:00
  thinking of. Cool.
• 5:02
  I did some research and yeah. Cool.
• 5:06
  Up there. Well, up there where the sun is
• 5:09
  shining. No, I mean, how about this
• 5:13
  trail? I just saw the sun and got
• 5:17
  excited. I'm happy either way.
• 5:20
  So am I, as long as I'm not looking into the sun.
• 5:22
  Yeah, yeah. Well, if the camera's looking
• 5:24
  into the sun. That would be.
• 5:27
  Well, it might. We might not be.
• 5:29
  We'll just be dark shadows. Partial sun down.
• 5:32
  There spotty sun OK, your parents were.
• 5:40
  Yeah, so they let me research a trip and I fixated on the Rogue
• 5:45
  River and growing up in LA that was far away and exotic.
• 5:51
  So my dad booked the trip with Arta, the American River Touring
• 5:57
  Association, and that July we did the trip and your dad was
• 6:02
  one of the guides and it was a really great guiding crew.
• 6:07
  I can't remember everybody who was on it, but it was hard as an
• 6:09
  Oregon crew. And I was totally fascinated
• 6:17
  with running the boat and how it was done.
• 6:21
  I was, what, 18 years old? And your dad let me row his gear
• 6:28
  boat some how. How old was Gary?
• 6:32
  In 1977, he would have been 26. OK.
• 6:37
  How's this? Like here.
• 6:40
  Yeah, Yeah. Great that.
• 6:41
  Sounds good. He would have been how old?
• 6:42
  26 Yeah, he was born in 51. So he was eight years older than
• 6:48
  me and he was this totally fit. He was a gymnast, right?
• 6:54
  Yeah, gymnast and a cheerleader. Yeah.
• 6:56
  Yeah, totally fit, buff guy. And I was kind of high school
• 7:03
  dweeb and I did not see myself as somebody who could do what he
• 7:07
  did, but he let me try his boat. I was pretty bad at it.
• 7:12
  And then the last night of that trip, we were camped at Floridel
• 7:15
  and he gave me just this. It was half inspirational talk,
• 7:20
  half arm twisting that I was supposed to come back the
• 7:22
  following summer into a whitewater school.
• 7:25
  And so I did. And so in 1978, the following
• 7:30
  year, I came back and did what what article they call their
• 7:34
  whitewater school, the American Whitewater school at the time.
• 7:37
  And they're, I just picked their longest one, which was 26 days
• 7:41
  on. It was Rogue, Klamath, Umpqua
• 7:44
  and Mackenzie. Wow.
• 7:46
  And your dad was one of the instructors.
• 7:48
  Wow. So I saw, yeah, we spent a lot
• 7:51
  of time together. That's so cool.
• 7:53
  Yeah, he's pretty. He There are many stories of him
• 7:57
  convincing people to meet the river.
• 8:00
  Convincing all sorts of. Things of people, yeah, that
• 8:03
  too, but particularly the river. It was half arm twisting.
• 8:07
  And whether it's like the initial convincing to come and
• 8:11
  join or it's to get people back to the river, those are some
• 8:16
  really special stories too. And how you had no idea that
• 8:20
  that was going to no idea change your life.
• 8:22
  No idea. And in fact, my freshman year of
• 8:26
  college, which came between the trip where he was a guide in the
• 8:30
  trip and the school where he was an instructor, I, I made this
• 8:35
  list of life goals and they were mostly out, almost all outdoors.
• 8:39
  And the first thing was white water rafting because your dad
• 8:42
  had told me it had to be. And then there were other things
• 8:45
  like scuba diving and Hang Gliding and this and that.
• 8:48
  And I never made it past #1 So I've never scuba dived.
• 8:54
  I've never hang glided. You all wanted to put.
• 8:56
  All your energy into. Rafting.
• 8:58
  Well, there's and there's so much.
• 8:59
  I mean, there's all different rivers to raft.
• 9:01
  There's all different. This there's all different.
• 9:04
  There's all different ways to raft the river, as your history
• 9:08
  shows. Yes.
• 9:10
  Totally. That's so cool.
• 9:11
  I'm so glad that that happened to you.
• 9:14
  So am I, I mean it. It led to everything including
• 9:18
  my family. I've met my wife through rafting
• 9:22
  and and the whole family are rafters so.
• 9:25
  Wow. Yeah, well, let's set up our
• 9:27
  chairs and dig into that even more because that's cool.
• 9:32
  That's the core here, almost. This doesn't tip over.
• 9:40
  Oh, the trees look so cool. I can't believe you guys provide
• 9:49
  the chairs. Oh yeah, we are.
• 9:52
  These one this is these are our tent chairs.
• 9:54
  They put them together like a tent.
• 9:56
  They're a little confuser. I think I have done something
• 10:00
  pretty similar. Kind of kind of classic river,
• 10:06
  yeah. River chairs.
• 10:18
  So you grew up in in LA? Yeah, in the burbs.
• 10:24
  Not really, you know, not around rivers and water.
• 10:29
  But I was always fascinated by boats as a kid, OK.
• 10:33
  And my mom was very outdoorsy and she really got the family
• 10:38
  into camping and backpacking. Cool.
• 10:41
  And then she'd done some canoeing.
• 10:43
  She grew up in the Midwest and and really that was how I got
• 10:50
  into the outdoors was particularly because of my mom.
• 10:54
  Cool. We have a lot of got into it
• 10:56
  because of Dad's stories and not not as many because of mom.
• 11:01
  My dad was. If you want to put your head.
• 11:04
  Certainly OK. In the middle.
• 11:07
  Did I? Yeah.
• 11:08
  Yeah, I still got my dead cat. My dad was a very willing
• 11:17
  follower, but my mom LED. That's cool.
• 11:22
  Yeah, what have? We got here poo poo Cachoo.
• 11:25
  Some kind of animals? There it is, Cool in the shade,
• 11:33
  yeah. Like I'll.
• 11:34
  Put on one more here, I'll try to mic.
• 11:37
  Well, I'll take it and I'll replace it.
• 11:41
  Yeah. These little things right here,
• 11:42
  I was doing research and I guess because they look like a dead
• 11:47
  cat, like in a bigger form, that's what they call them,
• 11:50
  these little like mic protectors.
• 11:52
  Sorry, that's going to be really on the audio.
• 11:58
  Or remove your chair in closer. Sorry guys about that, I was
• 12:04
  messing around with the mic. Going in to the closer together.
• 12:12
  I'm ready for my deceased count. OK, that's what we're going to
• 12:19
  call them now. Deceased you eyes, little
• 12:22
  respect. There we go.
• 12:24
  Thank you. See how close you That'll do
• 12:29
  good. OK we got to watch it because I
• 12:31
  guess we. Yeah, I'll and I'm we got to
• 12:34
  rearrange her in a little bit too.
• 12:36
  Sorry guys. 1 moment. If Emily catches it in editing,
• 12:40
  she can cut it out. Well.
• 12:44
  That looks good. Yeah.
• 12:46
  Cool. Pleasant view.
• 12:50
  Pleasantries. Pleasantries.
• 12:52
  Pleasant morning to you. Sweet.
• 12:56
  Great, Awesome. OK, so growing up in Southern
• 12:58
  California in LA, mom getting you into the outdoors?
• 13:03
  Yeah, a little bit more about. Did your mom wear the pants?
• 13:09
  Yeah, but she knew how to play that game so that my dad.
• 13:13
  Would kind of. Had the sense that he did, but
• 13:16
  it was my mom. So she's a very smart lady.
• 13:20
  Very. And anyway, so there were lots
• 13:25
  of family camping trips as a kid.
• 13:27
  And on those trips, if there was anything related to a boat, I
• 13:31
  was nuts about it. And you know, that could have
• 13:34
  gone a few different directions. It could have led to sailing, I
• 13:37
  suppose, or sea kayaking. But rafting got there first and
• 13:42
  then it's it was all river related from there.
• 13:46
  And I've run rivers in pretty much every boat I can think of
• 13:52
  except a motor rig, creature craft, which maybe will yet
• 14:00
  happen. I don't think anybody's going to
• 14:01
  let me run a motor rig, but you know, maybe and then a sweep
• 14:08
  rig. And I have a date.
• 14:11
  There's no set time, but I'm going to do that with Will
• 14:13
  Volper. Cool.
• 14:14
  In his small, his sport sweep. Yeah, he out here or you can
• 14:19
  take a trip to Idaho or. No, he's got it out here.
• 14:22
  Right now, yeah, Yeah. So I got to jump on it while
• 14:24
  it's still here. Yeah.
• 14:26
  That's fun. That's so cool.
• 14:27
  Those are so crazy. Yeah.
• 14:29
  Those sweet boats. Oh my gosh.
• 14:31
  They are a full like I describe it as like playing drums, like
• 14:37
  every part of your body is doing something at a different time as
• 14:41
  another part and in the like literal 5 minutes that I spent
• 14:46
  trying to. How did it go?
• 14:49
  I gave it up pretty quick. What river on the middle fork?
• 14:53
  Salmon there was. I knew the guide on I guess it
• 14:59
  must have been a NW rafting company trip and I was on a
• 15:03
  private trip and I I knew the guide running the sweep boat and
• 15:06
  I was like hey, any chance I could just give it a try?
• 15:10
  And that I did pretty quickly. Like, OK, I'm good, yeah.
• 15:15
  Like that's, that's good for you.
• 15:17
  I'm going to go back to my 16 foot raft.
• 15:20
  That's fine. Yeah, that'll be good.
• 15:23
  Yeah, were the most of the camping trips they were near
• 15:28
  water or? No, not necessarily.
• 15:30
  I mean, for about two weeks every August, my dad would rent
• 15:35
  A truck camper and we would, it was often kind of the focal
• 15:42
  point would be reaching some National Park somewhere in the
• 15:45
  West, but campgrounds along the way.
• 15:48
  And I I would try to divert it to water and boats.
• 15:55
  Did you have simple siblings that were participating in that
• 15:58
  as well? Yeah, I have two older sisters,
• 16:02
  one older brother and they were all outdoorsy as well.
• 16:06
  Nobody had the boat itch that I did, although my sister later
• 16:10
  become became a raft guide and rafter and she still does it.
• 16:15
  Yeah, she she sort of got into it right after I did.
• 16:19
  Good influence. What's that?
• 16:20
  Does she live here? No, she's down in Nevada City,
• 16:24
  outside Sacramento. OK, what river is her main river
• 16:27
  that she runs? Well, you mean currently or what
• 16:31
  down there, probably South Fork American.
• 16:35
  OK, Yeah. Cool.
• 16:37
  Yeah. And then going to Idaho and
• 16:40
  Oregon for longer trips, right? Did you find yourself in on a
• 16:46
  university trend or was it once you got the the whitewater
• 16:51
  rafting schooling? Yeah, that became the school of
• 16:56
  life. So I went to whitewater school
• 16:59
  after my freshman year in college and I was at that time
• 17:02
  already really interested in conservation and
• 17:05
  environmentalism. So my I majored in environmental
• 17:08
  studies, and my thought was probably to get a doctorate and
• 17:14
  become a university Prof. And I briefly went to grad
• 17:20
  school at Cal Berkeley and it was not a good fit.
• 17:26
  And the academic approach to the outdoors wasn't really my thing
• 17:32
  as much as recreation and writing.
• 17:38
  And then about the time I stopped doing that grad program,
• 17:44
  I fell in with Jim Cassidy and Friar Calhoun, who were then
• 17:49
  finishing up their guidebook to California Whitewater.
• 17:53
  And Jim Cassidy had this idea of doing an all Western book, which
• 17:59
  had never been done, never been attempted.
• 18:01
  It was too big a project. So they brought me in and the
• 18:05
  three of us did that book and that sort of became my doctoral
• 18:09
  dissertation in a sense, because it took it was a seven-year
• 18:15
  project, 600 page book and tons and tons of research and.
• 18:24
  What's that book called? Western Whitewater, sorry
• 18:27
  subtitle from the Rockies to the Pacific and it's the 11 Western
• 18:31
  states came out in 94 and it was intended for raft, gaik and
• 18:36
  canoe. And it was, it was well
• 18:40
  received, kind of a standard reference book until, you know,
• 18:49
  the Internet came along and people kind of stopped doing
• 18:51
  books. But it's still out there.
• 18:54
  It's not in print, but you can find it used anyway.
• 19:00
  Is it like how to run the Rapids?
• 19:02
  Or is it more of the genealogy, geology, hydrology, history?
• 19:10
  So it's a where to guide for river runners specifically.
• 19:14
  And every write up has really kind of three parts.
• 19:19
  The first part is just nuts and bolts data, how you know the
• 19:23
  length, the gradient, the season recommended flows, that kind of
• 19:27
  thing. And then the second part was an
• 19:31
  essay and that would often include a little bit of local
• 19:35
  history, Natural History, geology, the setting, as well as
• 19:40
  river running information. And then Part 3, and really the
• 19:44
  kind of the the most time consuming part to research was
• 19:49
  the mile by mile guide for each run, which is starting from the
• 19:53
  launch point with precise mileages.
• 19:57
  What you see along the way in terms of Rapids, landmarks, all
• 20:02
  that kind of thing. So that meant you had to go run
• 20:05
  the rivers you. Would think so, you would think
• 20:07
  so. But as I said, a lot of it was a
• 20:09
  research project and so between the three of us, we had run the
• 20:15
  majority of the rivers. I think there's 190 rivers, but
• 20:21
  I'm quite sure no one has run 190 and we didn't pretend to.
• 20:25
  So what we were doing and and running wherever once doesn't
• 20:31
  really qualify you to write a guide right above it because
• 20:35
  you've seen it at 1 water level at one time of year in one type
• 20:40
  of boat. And so a lot of the research was
• 20:43
  working, particularly with local boaters and lots of interviews
• 20:49
  of local boaters getting their first hand information and then
• 20:56
  trying to bring that under 1 unified format and sort of
• 21:02
  editorial viewpoint. And at that time and still to
• 21:06
  some extent, you know, around the West, people rate rivers
• 21:10
  differently in different regions.
• 21:12
  And so you have, at that time, Oregon boaters actually tended
• 21:19
  to overrate Rapids as compared to California and Colorado
• 21:27
  boaters who underrated Rapids. And so we were trying to bring
• 21:30
  some consistency to that. And so there was a ton of desk
• 21:39
  work and pouring over maps, and it wasn't as romantic and
• 21:44
  glamorous as people would imagine.
• 21:47
  I did a lot of Rd. trips, research Rd. trips, but still
• 21:50
  nobody's going to see 190 Rivers.
• 21:53
  Yeah. Maybe if you did it in this day
• 21:54
  and age, you could blog it all, yeah.
• 21:58
  Drones, yeah. Drones.
• 22:01
  That's a big, big change. Well, there was no no Internet,
• 22:04
  no Google Earth. Christopher Columbus days.
• 22:13
  Sometimes it feels like that. Right.
• 22:15
  Were the local boaters like, interested and engaged and
• 22:19
  willing to contribute to the effort?
• 22:22
  Or was it a little bit like pulling teeth and.
• 22:25
  So I would say 60% very engaged and helpfully participating, 30%
• 22:37
  pulling teeth just because people don't respond.
• 22:40
  And then there were a few boaters who felt that they
• 22:44
  didn't want to participate because they felt we were going
• 22:48
  to give away their local secret run.
• 22:53
  And we were very much including river conservation information.
• 22:59
  And at that time, virtually every run in the book had some
• 23:03
  kind of threat to it. And part of the goal of the book
• 23:07
  was to alert people to those conservation threats.
• 23:11
  And our philosophy, and my philosophy has always been there
• 23:17
  are when it comes to water development, there are no secret
• 23:21
  runs. The dam builders and the hydro
• 23:24
  developers, they know about everything that's out there and
• 23:29
  the best defense against that is having people get out and see it
• 23:35
  first hand and enjoy it and then get it involved in conservation
• 23:41
  efforts. Yeah, loving the land that you
• 23:44
  live on so that you want to protect it.
• 23:46
  A. Little tangent, I was, I was
• 23:51
  eating dinner with my dad and he's like, well there's going to
• 23:54
  be no oi heat trip this year because there's not enough snow
• 23:57
  pack up there. Not yet, anyway.
• 24:00
  Yeah. And he's very like, he's very,
• 24:02
  you know, like pessimist when it comes to it.
• 24:04
  And he's like, we're not going to plan a trip and blah, blah,
• 24:07
  blah, blah. I also grew up kind of parallel
• 24:09
  to Emily. Not as parallel.
• 24:12
  I didn't like do a lot of big runs, but my dad and crew, he
• 24:17
  has his own community and big river runners as well.
• 24:21
  And anyway, but it's a little tangent, I just wanted to hear
• 24:25
  anybody's take. Did you hear the same thing?
• 24:28
  I mean, that's pretty classic there.
• 24:30
  You can't run a river if there's no water in it.
• 24:33
  Yeah, he's like, it's just going to be too, too.
• 24:35
  Not too, too much. Not any.
• 24:40
  Wow, my words today. Not any snowpack to fill the
• 24:44
  river, so not much water. Yeah, that's what I was trying
• 24:48
  to do and. For a river like the Iwaukee
• 24:50
  that really is dependent on snowpack and for there to be
• 24:54
  flow, it's not like the rogue that is supported by snowpack
• 25:00
  but comes from an underground. Yeah, source or something?
• 25:07
  I don't I don't know actually the source of the Iwaukee, but
• 25:09
  it's not much river without snow and it only it has a much
• 25:14
  shorter rafting season than the rogue.
• 25:17
  The rogue you can float year round.
• 25:20
  Do you guys always do the lower from Rome down to?
• 25:25
  I don't know, I've never been on it, but my dad, my dad, he did a
• 25:32
  just him and a buddy and it was a little like me and my mom
• 25:35
  didn't really want me to go because it's he's getting up
• 25:38
  there in age and just him and one other dude, you know, it's
• 25:41
  just a little and you're it's very remote.
• 25:44
  I think so I think it's Rome down and but I told myself that
• 25:49
  the next time he went, which might actually be a good thing
• 25:52
  if we don't go this year, because I'm still on the cusp of
• 25:54
  not being able to get out with like I got little kids.
• 25:57
  So that's hard on me to try to get out for a week, but I was
• 26:02
  like, I want to go with him because he loves that.
• 26:05
  He loves the Natural History. He loves the actual history on
• 26:08
  how it was named and all that stuff.
• 26:10
  And it's just like, you know, being with your dad and those
• 26:14
  kind of environments and even just hanging out with Emily and
• 26:17
  her sharing her take and, you know, and not having her dad has
• 26:21
  made me want to just like hold on to certain things with my
• 26:24
  dad. So like, we might not be able to
• 26:27
  make a trip this year, but it's OK.
• 26:31
  And the river is a great bonder. It is, yeah.
• 26:34
  It is totally. There are there are often ways
• 26:38
  to get around low flow, but it changes everything you know.
• 26:43
  You can downsize to little rafts or eye case or back rafts and
• 26:50
  there's still ways to scrape down.
• 26:52
  But but you're scraping. Exactly.
• 26:55
  He wants a yeah, he wants a Kush trip.
• 26:58
  He doesn't want a. You.
• 27:00
  Know scrape trip regardless, there'll be other trips and
• 27:04
  things and. I'm a little worried to hear
• 27:07
  what you think advanced years is when you talk about your dad.
• 27:14
  Oh, I don't know. My dad is 70.
• 27:20
  He was born in 52. OK, so he's older than me.
• 27:26
  I met I met a man this last fall who is I think 86 and he still
• 27:33
  is kayaking the Eel and the road, the lower Rogue and bunch
• 27:40
  of California rivers and is like can't say no to a river trip and
• 27:45
  is whitewater kayaking. And I mean, it's so inspiring.
• 27:51
  He's just he, he hasn't stopped and he can't stop and he won't
• 27:54
  stop and. That's my plan.
• 27:56
  I think my dad has many of years left.
• 27:58
  He's very agile and still good. But like, yeah, I don't know.
• 28:03
  Like I don't mean I. Thought my dad had many years
• 28:05
  left then I'm. Very weird.
• 28:07
  Never know, you know he's. Losing his eyesight, that's a
• 28:10
  big, that's our next or that's his next little hurdle that he's
• 28:14
  going through medically, but that's about it in one eye.
• 28:18
  So he sells good one eye like I'm going to get you a eye patch
• 28:22
  it. Would become a pirate.
• 28:25
  Yeah, no, yeah, we never do. We never know.
• 28:28
  That's why I like very much like yo, like I want to like sink in
• 28:31
  all the time that I have. So, and that's part of the
• 28:37
  premise of doing this podcast is to capture people's stories for
• 28:43
  their legacy for their next generation to hear.
• 28:47
  That was part of my inspiration and starting it was that I was
• 28:50
  recording my dad's stories as he died and all, pretty much all of
• 28:55
  them were life changing experiences he had had outside
• 28:59
  and and I wanted to retain those.
• 29:03
  And then now I have a podcast where I get to capture that for
• 29:08
  other people. And our guest this morning was
• 29:10
  talking about, you know, when he finds himself on his deathbed,
• 29:14
  he doesn't know if he'll be able to say more than 4 words, but he
• 29:17
  wants his kids to know XYZ. Like, well, if all you have is 4
• 29:21
  words, we have it here. We can share this with your
• 29:24
  children. That's really cool.
• 29:27
  Yeah, yeah. Just hearing people's stories
• 29:30
  for sure. Like that's the main thing.
• 29:33
  Yeah. I love it.
• 29:34
  Yeah. And I was going to say your dad
• 29:37
  was probably such a good storyteller that every little
• 29:40
  story turns into like, so this. So yeah, we had this one time.
• 29:45
  We're up on this rock and like, you think that it would be here.
• 29:48
  But like, you know, you know, you can really make a
• 29:51
  embellishes story. Yeah, it's like a storyteller.
• 29:54
  Yeah, and not just was he an actor or a gymnast and a
• 29:59
  cheerleader, he was also an actor and a lawyer and truly had
• 30:03
  the gift of gab to spin a tail. Spin a tail.
• 30:07
  Yeah, that's that's what's up. That takes a special.
• 30:12
  Did you and him ever get on the river again after the whitewater
• 30:15
  school we. We didn't.
• 30:17
  And that that story is that. So the plan was I was going to
• 30:27
  become an Arctic guide for Arctic Oregon Rogue crew, and
• 30:32
  that was the summer I had a BS assistant guide slots lined up
• 30:40
  and that was the summer that the Art of Oregon Rogue Crew went on
• 30:44
  strike. OK, I know this story.
• 30:48
  I mean like relatively. But why did they go on strike?
• 30:53
  What's that? They weren't getting paid.
• 30:56
  That's my understanding is that they were, they were going on
• 30:59
  strike because of wages. And we are interviewing Julie
• 31:03
  Norman in a few weeks who was a part of that strike.
• 31:07
  And I know much of her story is going to be about Arta going on
• 31:11
  strike. So.
• 31:13
  I'm going to be interested in that.
• 31:14
  Julie was the head of my whitewater school.
• 31:17
  Cool. So is.
• 31:19
  That the one we saw in the car, yeah.
• 31:20
  Yeah, she drove by us while we were on the way here.
• 31:22
  She didn't see us, but I saw her.
• 31:25
  So they they all got fired and there went any thought of
• 31:32
  working Arta, Oregon. And at that point I went down to
• 31:38
  the American and picked up a little work at the end of that
• 31:42
  summer with Arta, California and then started with them the
• 31:48
  following summer. But no, I didn't get on the
• 31:51
  water with your dad again after that.
• 31:53
  Dang. Like at all.
• 31:56
  No, because my path took me from art of the following summer, at
• 32:01
  the beginning of the summer. And then the American had no
• 32:04
  snowpack. Their bookings were down.
• 32:06
  There was almost no guiding work in the Sierras.
• 32:09
  At the Southern Sierra there was this then obscure river, the
• 32:14
  Kern. That was reservoir release, and
• 32:18
  they had a season. So I moved down there, started
• 32:22
  work with an outfit on the Kern that lasted a year, and then I
• 32:26
  ended up with Whitewater Voyages, so I never made it back
• 32:30
  to our TO. My dad didn't either.
• 32:33
  Then he went to work for Sundance.
• 32:35
  Oh, OK. Doing kayak instruction, Yeah.
• 32:37
  Yeah, I'm pretty sure that that's how that makes sense.
• 32:42
  Yeah, yeah. I seem to remember that, yeah.
• 32:45
  And even when you were working on the Save the Stanislaus
• 32:48
  campaign, you guys didn't intersect.
• 32:52
  I don't think so. I intersected with a lot of art
• 32:57
  of People because it was very active part of that, but
• 33:02
  including other people who had taught on my white water school,
• 33:05
  but not Gabby. That's a shame.
• 33:09
  And then and then you're both living in Southern Oregon and
• 33:12
  and. The next time I saw him was some
• 33:15
  wild on Scenic Film Fest, maybe eight years ago.
• 33:18
  Yeah, 2013 or 14? Yeah, OK.
• 33:22
  Longer. Yeah, yeah.
• 33:23
  Time flies, and so you and your dad.
• 33:27
  That was the first time I'd seen him since 78.
• 33:30
  Wow, Yeah. Did you guys, I vaguely remember
• 33:34
  you guys seeing each other, but there was recognition.
• 33:37
  Oh yeah, yeah. And I was babbling about how you
• 33:41
  changed my life and he was kind of wondering if I was going to
• 33:48
  start sobbing or something. He's always very humble about
• 33:54
  that. But also like that is one of his
• 33:57
  personal claims to fame is he knows how many people he either
• 34:03
  introduced to the river or got back to the river.
• 34:05
  And he's very is was very, very proud of that.
• 34:10
  Yeah, he should be. But very humble in that way.
• 34:15
  Perfect. Combination.
• 34:18
  Yes. And so you also met your wife on
• 34:21
  the river? Yeah, so after working a year
• 34:25
  with a Kern outfit, it's kind of a long story.
• 34:29
  They lost their permit. Bill McGinnis Whitewater voyages
• 34:33
  started on the Kern. I already knew the run, so Bill
• 34:37
  hired me and after a year working with Bill, he hired a
• 34:42
  new office manager who happened to be my future wife.
• 34:48
  Did you know right away? Was it lovely in?
• 34:51
  Fact. I often cared that he consulted
• 34:54
  me and a couple other people about the candidates and so I
• 35:01
  sort of cared that I felt for her when I saw her resume.
• 35:06
  So she was. She was a former graduate
• 35:15
  student at Cal Berkeley and very in the literature and writing,
• 35:20
  and I thought that was exotic and.
• 35:25
  Hot. Exactly.
• 35:30
  And then she had not done white water rafting, but as she worked
• 35:36
  at white water voyages, she got into it.
• 35:39
  Cool, what's her name? Polly.
• 35:41
  Polly Cute. Yeah, that's just a cute name.
• 35:44
  Polly, Polly graced shout out. Yeah.
• 35:49
  Shout out, Polly. We love a good love story.
• 35:51
  We do. That's a love at first sight for
• 35:54
  her. Did you have to like, you have
• 35:57
  to like, you know, court and like.
• 35:59
  Wear her down. Yeah, I.
• 36:00
  Think there was some wooing involved for sure, yeah.
• 36:06
  I mean, with a resume like that, you got to.
• 36:08
  Exactly. She had her pick.
• 36:09
  Yeah, I can't imagine why she chose me.
• 36:13
  That's cute. And so then she got into boating
• 36:17
  and that's how you raised your kids.
• 36:19
  And yeah. How many kids you got?
• 36:21
  3 two sons and a daughter, and they're all boaters as well.
• 36:30
  And in fact, my youngest, my daughter, is an art of guide.
• 36:35
  So that tradition continues. But yeah, we, we actually
• 36:43
  started our own whitewater outfit in between child #2 and
• 36:51
  #3 I had always wanted, I was most interested in whitewater
• 36:57
  rafting instruction. And so we started an outfit
• 37:01
  called Running Wild, trying to do only white water rafting
• 37:07
  instruction. And we were a little ahead of
• 37:08
  our time. It was the early 90s and you
• 37:11
  couldn't run a business just doing white water rafting
• 37:15
  instruction. So it lasted a few years.
• 37:17
  Was it here? Yeah, we were living in Ashland
• 37:20
  at the time and doing Lower Klamath, N Umpqua and the middle
• 37:30
  sections of the Rogue, but it wasn't I I know a lot about
• 37:34
  boating, but I didn't know anything about business.
• 37:37
  And so it poked along for a few years and we had fun.
• 37:41
  I learned a lot, But then we let that go.
• 37:46
  Darn, We could use. I mean, now, now that is a
• 37:50
  little bit more yeah, active, but it's usually an outfit that
• 37:54
  has a commercial guiding operation that then also that's
• 37:58
  does some teaching. Yeah, I was doing it.
• 38:00
  We were doing it the opposite. Started with instruction and
• 38:03
  then we didn't have enough students.
• 38:05
  We tried to expand out into general outfitting and I that
• 38:09
  was not what I had set out to do and not what I wanted to do.
• 38:13
  Yeah, the it's a whole nother breed to yeah host and the
• 38:17
  hospitality aspect. Yeah, and I loved guiding, but I
• 38:21
  did not love running a business. Yeah.
• 38:24
  It's also it's a lot of work. Yeah, totally can can be a lot
• 38:28
  of time not on the river. Yeah, that's usually how, when
• 38:33
  you move up in the ranks, you get out of doing the work that
• 38:38
  usually gets you into it and gets you enjoying it.
• 38:40
  So you spent so much time in California running California
• 38:43
  Rivers. Why did you choose to live and
• 38:46
  settle down in Southern Oregon? So my wife and I both knew of
• 38:51
  Ashland through the interests to the Shakespeare Festival.
• 38:58
  And after my oldest Greg was born in 87, we we just, we were
• 39:06
  living in the Bay Area at the time and I had just dropped out
• 39:11
  of this grad program at Cal and we had decided we didn't want to
• 39:18
  raise our kids in the city. And so we were looking without
• 39:25
  much clarity about how we were going to do it.
• 39:29
  We were looking at moving what was then semi rural and we
• 39:35
  looked a lot at Bend that it would shock anybody to think it
• 39:39
  was once. It once had a semi rural feeling
• 39:42
  and we looked at Ashland and we ended up choosing Ashland.
• 39:45
  It was closer to our families and there was more boating here
• 39:51
  and bought our house here in 89 and still live in the same
• 39:54
  house. Wow.
• 39:56
  That's how that's how it happens, yeah.
• 39:59
  We couldn't possibly afford to buy another house.
• 40:03
  Yeah. Well, we've been driving around
• 40:05
  Ashland all day today. That's been a subject of our
• 40:09
  conversation of what do people do here that they are able to
• 40:13
  afford these houses. And I said, well, a lot of
• 40:15
  people bought them 30-40 years ago and just haven't left them.
• 40:20
  Exactly, Yeah. That's true.
• 40:23
  There's there's maybe money to update them but not to switch
• 40:28
  them up. Yeah, if you saw our place,
• 40:30
  you'd realize we've done very little updating either.
• 40:34
  That's OK too. Yeah, now it's great, but the
• 40:38
  town has changed enormously. For the, for the good or for the
• 40:42
  well. Of course, it's a mixed bag.
• 40:45
  You know, we all wanted an REI and we all wanted an In-n-out
• 40:48
  Burger and a Trader Joe's, and now we've all got those.
• 40:51
  But it's become a pretty pretty wealthy down to say the least,
• 41:02
  so it's pretty stratified at the top.
• 41:04
  And again, what are people doing?
• 41:06
  What is what's what's? Where's the money at here?
• 41:09
  Well like Casey said, he moved up here from California and was
• 41:13
  able to make a steal basically a home that sell sell the house in
• 41:19
  California and you could afford to buy like 3 homes in Ashland
• 41:23
  at the time and go from living on no land to 10 acres and.
• 41:31
  Yeah, yeah. I mean, Grants Pass is rapidly
• 41:33
  becoming like that too. Yeah.
• 41:35
  So there's not much inexpensive left in Oregon.
• 41:39
  Yeah, yeah. It's kind of sad, but Selavi,
• 41:44
  yeah, Like, what are you going to?
• 41:45
  Do at least we have great conservation efforts and
• 41:49
  structures in place in this area already so that we can maintain
• 41:54
  absolutely some of the rural and quick access to relatively
• 41:59
  undeveloped land to recreate and that we we have that access?
• 42:06
  For sure, yeah, yeah. And that's what that's certainly
• 42:10
  what keeps me here. That and, you know, with 37
• 42:15
  years of junk in a house, you know I'm not moving.
• 42:19
  Yeah. But yeah, it's it's the outdoors
• 42:21
  that keeps me here for sure keeps us here.
• 42:24
  Yeah. Tell us a bit about the recent
• 42:28
  Klamath restoration. Yeah, work that's very recent
• 42:33
  and very close by and really pretty historical, like big
• 42:39
  deal. Yeah, So it, it is recent in
• 42:43
  terms of what the general public knows about, but the it's
• 42:49
  actually a, it's a very long story and I won't go into all of
• 42:53
  it, but I was working on Klamath conservation back in the 1980s.
• 43:00
  There was actually a dam proposed in the center of what
• 43:05
  is now the Hell's Corner run. And that was something I was
• 43:12
  very involved with with Bill McGinnis and white water voyages
• 43:15
  was trying to stop that dam. And so, so the, the Klamath dams
• 43:23
  were built in kind of early 1900s up until the late 1950s,
• 43:29
  early 1960s and. How many dams were there?
• 43:33
  There were four hydro dams and then there's two additional dams
• 43:37
  in the very upper reaches of the river.
• 43:39
  But the dam removal was for hydro dams that were built in
• 43:43
  that period, from about 1918 to the late 1950s, early 1960s.
• 43:49
  And then in the 80s, there was this proposal for 1/5 dam, which
• 43:55
  if it had been dealt built, it's a question mark what would have
• 43:59
  happened with the efforts to remove the dams because it would
• 44:02
  have been on a different permit timetable.
• 44:05
  It would have thrown a wrench in the process, but part of.
• 44:13
  How that one was? Stopped was that in 1979 river
• 44:18
  runners discovered the Upper Klamath Run and so there was
• 44:24
  there were other groups trying. To stop that.
• 44:27
  Dam, The Salt Caves Dam. But river runners were a big
• 44:30
  part of it, and recreational interest was a key part of that.
• 44:36
  Were the dams not? Being.
• 44:38
  Like utilized? You mean the one?
• 44:41
  In terms of taking them out, they were producing
• 44:44
  hydroelectricity up until they were removed.
• 44:49
  But the the key problem with them was they they were blocking
• 44:59
  fish passage. And the utility Pacific Core
• 45:03
  essentially faced a decision of do you try to build fish passage
• 45:09
  into these dams that were never designed with that in mind and
• 45:15
  at enormous cost, or do you just say it isn't worth it?
• 45:19
  And the amount of California's hydropower they produce is very
• 45:26
  small, so she would just walk away from it.
• 45:29
  And in the end, that was their business decision was that it
• 45:32
  wasn't worth it to hang on to the dam.
• 45:35
  So they were willing to have them out.
• 45:37
  And then there were other groups that still wanted them to
• 45:41
  remain. But in terms of hydro
• 45:44
  production, they were a liability really to Pacific Corp
• 45:49
  because of the fish passage problem.
• 45:52
  What were people's? Arguments.
• 45:54
  For keeping the dams so there. A lot of the passion behind
• 46:00
  keeping them was really a misunderstanding of what they
• 46:06
  did. They did provide hydropower, but
• 46:10
  people presume that all dams provide all things and that
• 46:15
  there was a widespread misunderstanding.
• 46:19
  People thought they provided irrigation water, which they
• 46:22
  never did, and irrigation storage and people thought they
• 46:25
  provided flood control, which they never did.
• 46:29
  And they weren't designed to. They were designed solely to
• 46:31
  produce hydropower. And so there were a lot of
• 46:35
  people who felt, Oh my God, we're going to lose important
• 46:39
  water storage and flood control and irrigation water if we
• 46:42
  remove these. And none of that, in fact, had
• 46:45
  ever been provided by those dams.
• 46:47
  And you could take them out and have no effect on that.
• 46:51
  Where did some of those? Misconceptions.
• 46:53
  Come from do you know, I think a lot of it is.
• 46:56
  Simply that I wrote a editorial for The Oregonian about this,
• 47:02
  that people just they have a terrible time understanding that
• 47:07
  not all dams are multi purpose dams.
• 47:08
  That there are single purpose dams as these were, and that if
• 47:14
  if you couldn't make the hydropower pencil out while
• 47:24
  providing fish passage, you can, you really lost any reason for
• 47:29
  keeping those dams. And then it was it was in the
• 47:37
  early 2000s, and I won't be able to remember the year that during
• 47:44
  the Bush administration, there were some tremendous fish kills
• 47:48
  on the lower Klamath. And the tribes really took the
• 47:52
  lead in advocating for dam removal, which is was, you know,
• 47:59
  it was almost unprecedented at the time to be talking about
• 48:04
  that. And it's become kind of
• 48:05
  commonplace now to think of dam removal.
• 48:09
  It's like, oh, yeah, we we take out dams.
• 48:10
  That's something we do. And for me, coming of age in the
• 48:15
  era when we were still losing major rivers like the Stanislaus
• 48:20
  to dams, it was a head spinner to think of taking them out.
• 48:24
  And I never thought that would happen in my lifetime.
• 48:28
  And the tribes really took the lead and started advocating and
• 48:34
  proposing removing all of the dams and my.
• 48:41
  Role. Really.
• 48:42
  Was primarily trying to look at was there whitewater potential
• 48:51
  on the Upper Klamath, the potential for new whitewater
• 48:55
  after dam removal? And if So, what might it look
• 48:59
  like and how could you plan so that the public could enjoy that
• 49:05
  and use that. And so in 2011, Tom O'Keefe, my
• 49:14
  American whitewater guru, he and I were talking and I said, you
• 49:20
  know, somebody needs to research and do an article on the
• 49:25
  whitewater potential once the dams come out, because the way
• 49:30
  the media were portraying it at the time was that because there
• 49:37
  was a lot of whitewater. Use of the house corner.
• 49:41
  Run that was premised on peak flow releases from the hydro
• 49:47
  plant at JC Boyle. When that?
• 49:51
  Hydro plant came. Out with dam removal, those peak
• 49:55
  flows would be converted into a lower 24 hour continuous flow
• 50:02
  and the thought was you won't be able to raft on that lower
• 50:09
  steady state flow the way you can on the peaking flow.
• 50:12
  And so the way the media portrayed it was, there will be
• 50:16
  there will be no more. Recreation on the.
• 50:18
  Upper Klamath and they went beyond that and said damn
• 50:22
  removal. Good for fish, bad for rafters.
• 50:27
  Howdy friends, quick little. Pause on the adventure.
• 50:29
  First of all, we just want to say thank you.
• 50:32
  Truly. The fact that you're out there
• 50:33
  listening to this weird little outdoor podcast we started means
• 50:37
  more to us than you probably realize.
• 50:39
  We're just two little feral childhood besties that had an
• 50:42
  idea, grab some microphones and decided to record conversations
• 50:46
  in the wild. And somehow you showed up for
• 50:48
  it. Thank you.
• 50:49
  So if this podcast has ever made you laugh, taught you something,
• 50:53
  or kept you company on a drive, a hike, or a day at the river, I
• 50:57
  have one small favor to ask you. Give the show a follow, tap the
• 51:01
  stars and leave a review if you can.
• 51:03
  And also, here's a little fun exercise.
• 51:05
  Think of the first person who popped in your head while
• 51:08
  listening to this episode because let's be honest,
• 51:10
  everyone on podcasts, remind somebody of somebody or somebody
• 51:14
  you know that'll enjoy this podcast.
• 51:16
  Send this episode to them. That's honestly the best way
• 51:20
  this little wildly podcast grows.
• 51:22
  All right, thanks for being here with us.
• 51:24
  Now let's go wildly together. OK.
• 51:30
  Dam removal, Yeah, so the good. For fish.
• 51:34
  Bad for recreation, right? And I I was.
• 51:38
  Very offended by that characterization because I was,
• 51:44
  you know. Being lumped in with.
• 51:45
  Rafters who, per the media story, would be against dam
• 51:50
  removal. And of course, I was
• 51:52
  wholeheartedly in favor of dam removal.
• 51:55
  And I knew that there was the possibility of new whitewater
• 52:02
  and that in in fact, even viewed very narrowly through the lens
• 52:11
  of whitewater recreation, I I knew it had to be a net
• 52:15
  positive. And I was determined to put the
• 52:23
  lie to that media a story that rafters would be harmed by dam
• 52:29
  removal. So I was talking to Tom O'Keefe
• 52:32
  and said, you know, somebody needs to research what's going
• 52:36
  to be there and write an article about it.
• 52:39
  And there was sort of a silence. And Tom said, yeah, you need to
• 52:43
  do that. So I was nominated to do the
• 52:48
  research and write the article. So in 2011, I wrote an article
• 52:54
  for the American Whitewater Journal that was really it was
• 52:58
  in essence a river guide to the post Dam, Upper Klamath.
• 53:03
  And it was based on lots of field and desk research and lots
• 53:12
  of pouring over old historic maps that predated dam and old
• 53:16
  historic photographs. It was in essence a guide to it
• 53:24
  was my best guess of what was going to be their post removal
• 53:28
  and not just where where there was likely to be what type of
• 53:35
  white water, but how the runs would logically break at
• 53:39
  different access points and therefore where it would make
• 53:44
  sense to seek future access points.
• 53:47
  So that because one of the things.
• 53:50
  About the Upper Klamath. Is, as is common with volcanic
• 53:56
  rivers in the 40 ish mile cut through the Cascades, it
• 54:01
  alternates pretty wildly between there.
• 54:04
  There's one section that's really just Class 1 plus under
• 54:10
  what used to be Cobco Reservoir, and then at its most extreme and
• 54:16
  steepest, there's sections that are full on Class 4 plus with
• 54:21
  some fives. And for people of varying
• 54:28
  ability, you need to be able to either start or stop at key
• 54:34
  strategic points. So that was also part of what I
• 54:37
  was doing. And then so really a lot of the
• 54:43
  work that I and Tom O'Keefe and Scott Harding with American
• 54:47
  Whitewater were doing was trying to make sure that all aspects.
• 54:57
  Of the river and in. Particular accesses would be
• 55:02
  planned as part of dam removal in such a way that the public
• 55:07
  could enjoy the river afterwards.
• 55:09
  And it's turned out really well. And there's people out boating
• 55:14
  it a lot. Yeah, I haven't.
• 55:17
  Gotten up there yet and I'm I will continue to bother will
• 55:23
  about making sure that I get on a trip well we should do it yeah
• 55:27
  we could even. Film, yeah.
• 55:30
  And there's kind of, you know, there's, it's not the river
• 55:32
  right down. Is it down here like the?
• 55:35
  Yeah, Well, it's. It's over there and down here.
• 55:39
  So the I think the white water begins over by Klamath Falls and
• 55:45
  then really fairly close to I5 is kind of where the upper
• 55:50
  Klamath ends. We scattered.
• 55:53
  My grandpa's ashes in the Klamath.
• 55:55
  Nice. Yeah, I remember that.
• 55:59
  It's beautiful. And yeah.
• 56:02
  Beautiful terrain. Yeah.
• 56:04
  When we when we go and when we're scheduled to do interviews
• 56:08
  in Klamath Falls, we can do. Do we have a well, when we do we
• 56:14
  can do interviews and then hop on a trip be already probably
• 56:18
  over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 56:21
  The. Uppermost.
• 56:22
  Run is only. Like. 10 miles outside of Cave
• 56:24
  Falls and that is that is one of the remaining projects is to try
• 56:30
  to get. A good access.
• 56:34
  At the the very beginning of the Upper Klamath at Keno Dam.
• 56:41
  That's so cool. It's so.
• 56:42
  Cool that that is. Such a historic like event in
• 56:48
  our. Backyard.
• 56:49
  Essentially, it's amazing. I'm.
• 56:52
  I was. Ridiculously lucky to have our
• 56:55
  front row seat to that one. And by volunteering, I was.
• 57:01
  Just part of some. Amazing planning meetings and
• 57:05
  tours and, and got to watch the biggest dam removal in history
• 57:12
  and it was astonishing. Yeah.
• 57:15
  Damn. Damn, yeah.
• 57:19
  That's a good one for that spot. What?
• 57:22
  Would be like some key takeaways or points of advice that you
• 57:26
  would give to other conservationists looking to
• 57:31
  continue that effort on their rivers.
• 57:33
  And like what do? What should people know about
• 57:37
  getting dams removed? Well, I think.
• 57:41
  The the number one thing is you got to be patient because it
• 57:45
  takes so much time. I mean, I worked on it for 25
• 57:51
  years and there are other people in the tribes who worked on it a
• 57:55
  lifetime. So it and you, you cannot afford
• 58:00
  to get discouraged. You just got to keep plugging
• 58:04
  along. And there are, because there are
• 58:08
  always setbacks and always problems where you think an
• 58:12
  administration changes and you think, oh, we're toast, but you
• 58:16
  can still find a way. So being patient and
• 58:19
  perseverance and and then establishing the widest
• 58:25
  coalition you can. Something I was able to do in my
• 58:32
  volunteer work with American Whitewater was engage with the
• 58:37
  out the local Outfitters who really were going to take a
• 58:43
  serious hit to their businesses with the loss of the peaking
• 58:46
  flows on the House corner and trying to.
• 58:53
  Help them understand what? Some at least knew possible runs
• 58:58
  were going to be so that for them they could see that yes
• 59:02
  there was going to be the loss of peaking flows on else corner
• 59:06
  run, but they were going to leave me these new runs that
• 59:09
  they were unaware of and that nobody had talked about.
• 59:13
  You know, the first environmental impact report on
• 59:15
  dam removal made no mention whatsoever of recreation
• 59:21
  potential after the dams. And by the time we were done, it
• 59:26
  was a nearly 300 page document that that agency, that entity
• 59:31
  had discussing and planning for removal.
• 59:36
  So anyway, in having the biggest coalition you can, environmental
• 59:42
  groups, people who like to fish, people who like to hike
• 59:46
  Outfitters, that's a good take away for your project.
• 59:50
  Emily's got a big project. In the works in her.
• 59:52
  Future Oh yeah, yeah, I do. You want to.
• 59:55
  Voice it. Yeah, I mean we've.
• 59:56
  Mentioned it on a couple episodes.
• 59:58
  Already, so you know, putting it out there here, let me move
• 1:00:01
  this. One of.
• 1:00:04
  When my dad. Was on the City Council in
• 1:00:06
  Grants Pass back in the early 2000s.
• 1:00:10
  He proposed the development of a whitewater park in Grants Pass
• 1:00:14
  and it was shut down. And I intend to revive it and
• 1:00:19
  see it through. Yeah.
• 1:00:22
  And I, I know that it is not an overnight process.
• 1:00:24
  I, I have some government and nonprofit work history and so I
• 1:00:28
  know, I know a bit about how bureaucracy works and I've grown
• 1:00:33
  up in this world of, of river conservation and coalition
• 1:00:38
  building. And so I have really, really
• 1:00:41
  great role models and people to look to, to, to lean on to see
• 1:00:47
  it happen. I can't remember though.
• 1:00:50
  Like, you know, we keep. You keep bringing it up like
• 1:00:53
  little seedings at our like Parks meeting because I'm
• 1:00:56
  involved in a bunch of birds and Grants Pass and I'm not getting
• 1:01:01
  a definite like why was it shut down?
• 1:01:05
  Was it originally? What I remember is that it was
• 1:01:08
  mostly. Fish, fish people said that it
• 1:01:11
  would cause too much change to the river and they they didn't
• 1:01:16
  like that. And so I know that that is a an
• 1:01:20
  area of needing to make friends and focus on how actually it
• 1:01:26
  could improve the river and fisheries and not impede on fish
• 1:01:34
  access, fish flow, all of that. So, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a
• 1:01:41
  long term goal. And I'm only just now, I mean, I
• 1:01:45
  was like, as my dad was dying, I told myself, I'm going to, I'm
• 1:01:49
  going to pick that up. I'm going to make that happen.
• 1:01:51
  And well, we need it. Bring that dream back to life as
• 1:01:54
  part of his memory and legacy. And now this is the year.
• 1:02:00
  That I'm kind of like. OK.
• 1:02:02
  Mentioning it to people starting to look at who are the players
• 1:02:06
  that I want to start a micro coalition with who have been
• 1:02:11
  involved in some similar projects and developments in the
• 1:02:17
  past and who, who are the stakeholders and, and then
• 1:02:23
  probably in the next like 3 years at all morph into
• 1:02:27
  something else. And but I've been attending the
• 1:02:31
  the city parks meetings just so that they get familiar with my
• 1:02:35
  face and I can see how how they work and what their values are.
• 1:02:41
  And you can kind of assess individually the.
• 1:02:44
  Individuals of it like OK, you know, Josh is very close minded.
• 1:02:48
  Like he doesn't want to work on stuff that he doesn't want to
• 1:02:51
  work on, you know, stuff like that.
• 1:02:53
  He can kind of vibe everybody that is really cool.
• 1:02:56
  I'm really. Excited to hear that.
• 1:02:58
  Cool. Thank you.
• 1:02:59
  And I just think it's. Really neat that it's a.
• 1:03:01
  Legacy project that started with your dad?
• 1:03:05
  Yeah, and that. I mean, part of why he chose to
• 1:03:08
  live in Southern Oregon was because of meeting the Rogue and
• 1:03:14
  working on the Rogue as not just a raft guide, but as a kayak
• 1:03:17
  instructor. And Sundance Kayak School was
• 1:03:21
  the first kayak school in the country.
• 1:03:24
  And so there is a legacy of whitewater kayaking in Southern
• 1:03:30
  Oregon on the Rogue River that is like kind of limping along.
• 1:03:35
  Yeah. And very healthy.
• 1:03:37
  You know, there's a great opportunity to revive that.
• 1:03:41
  And especially as in Grants Pass, mountain biking is like
• 1:03:45
  appropriately having a huge research resurgence and lots of
• 1:03:52
  great marketing and. Tourism.
• 1:03:54
  Promotion And I'm I'm kind of like, OK, why?
• 1:03:58
  Water kayaking is like the mountain biking of the river,
• 1:04:01
  but we have this. River this I mean we're this
• 1:04:04
  opportunity Grants Pass has the river that runs right through
• 1:04:08
  town and we just have the hell gate jet boats and it's like but
• 1:04:12
  what else? And you can't it's you're not
• 1:04:14
  rafting on the. I mean, you float, Yeah.
• 1:04:17
  And it's a different experience, but really to get like.
• 1:04:21
  A white water experience on the Rogue.
• 1:04:24
  You have to go to Merlin, right? You have to go to the goalie
• 1:04:28
  stretch or Gold Hill. The Rogue River doesn't even
• 1:04:31
  flow through Merlin. You're just driving through
• 1:04:34
  Merlin to get to, I mean, it's just like you go over the Rogue
• 1:04:38
  and it's the main area in Grants Pass.
• 1:04:40
  Like, why wouldn't we? I don't know.
• 1:04:42
  I'm just yeah, I'm yeah. It is an amazing setting for a
• 1:04:45
  city. Maybe perfect, yeah.
• 1:04:49
  There's a lot there's. A lot of layers and opportunity
• 1:04:52
  and it's not a small project, but it's it's going to be hard.
• 1:04:59
  But like I know that. I I know that we can do it.
• 1:05:02
  I know that the rogue deserves it, and there are so many people
• 1:05:07
  who would use it and would love it and lots of people who are
• 1:05:14
  ready, who every person that I've mentioned it to has said
• 1:05:18
  let me know when and where I need to be, what I need to sign
• 1:05:22
  to make this happen. I'll be there.
• 1:05:23
  Yeah. So that's exciting.
• 1:05:25
  Yeah. Well, and and fisheries should
• 1:05:28
  properly be a huge concern. Absolutely and.
• 1:05:34
  Should. Properly take priority, but
• 1:05:38
  there is usually a way to protect that fully and still do
• 1:05:45
  the kind of thing you're talking about.
• 1:05:46
  Mm hmm, yeah, it doesn't have to be 1 or the other.
• 1:05:49
  It can be both and I believe. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:51
  Mm. Hmm.
• 1:05:53
  That's what people seem to forget nowadays.
• 1:05:55
  Mm, hmm. Is two things can exist at the
• 1:05:58
  same time. True truths to to lies can exist
• 1:06:02
  at the same time too. You know, it's like people are
• 1:06:04
  realizing like it's not that or that.
• 1:06:07
  It could be that and that or it could be, you know, it could be
• 1:06:10
  that now and that later, right? Yeah.
• 1:06:12
  It it can, it's all possible. Yeah, Yeah, totally.
• 1:06:17
  Well, if obviously. Probably one of your most
• 1:06:21
  pivotal life changing moments was meeting my dad.
• 1:06:25
  It's true, but we yeah, that is kind of that is our the core
• 1:06:30
  question of our pod is a moment in your life that changed the
• 1:06:36
  trajectory of everything or change the way that you look at
• 1:06:40
  the world or was just a an experience that made you really
• 1:06:47
  take life differently. Well, I would.
• 1:06:50
  I would go back. To the Whitewater school.
• 1:06:53
  So yes, your dad twisting my arm at Floridel and coming up with a
• 1:07:01
  counter argument to every reason I gave him for why I was not the
• 1:07:06
  right person to do the White Order school.
• 1:07:09
  Yes, that was a beautiful moment.
• 1:07:10
  But really it was at school the following summer that was life
• 1:07:14
  changing for me because I had always viewed that kind of
• 1:07:21
  athletic, adventurous engagement with the outdoors as an exciting
• 1:07:26
  thing. But nothing I did, nothing I
• 1:07:29
  would do. I was going to be a kayaker or
• 1:07:30
  rafter or something like that. And I turned out to be good at
• 1:07:35
  it and competent at it and, and then embraced it.
• 1:07:42
  And everything I've done since flows from there.
• 1:07:47
  Flows from OH. I did do something there.
• 1:07:53
  There's one other moment I think about.
• 1:07:55
  Which is that in that time I I worked four years ago I'd at the
• 1:08:01
  Kern. And then the company I had
• 1:08:06
  worked for lost their commercial permit and 2 new companies
• 1:08:13
  picked up permits. 1 was the company run by Will's dad and
• 1:08:21
  one was Bill Mcginnis's company. Why water voyages?
• 1:08:25
  And I thought, I want to know how to guide on the current.
• 1:08:27
  I need work. I'm just going to call these
• 1:08:29
  outfits and see if I can get a job.
• 1:08:31
  And the first company I called was Will's dad's company.
• 1:08:36
  And it was the offseason, and either it was busy or I got an
• 1:08:42
  answering machine. So I called Mcginnis's company,
• 1:08:47
  Whitewater Voyages, and they picked up and I got an interview
• 1:08:50
  and I got hired and I met my wife and I had my kids.
• 1:08:54
  And sometimes I think, holy shit, what what would have
• 1:08:57
  happened if Bob had answered exactly?
• 1:08:59
  What if Bob didn't answer the phone?
• 1:09:01
  Anyway, wow. See how?
• 1:09:04
  Life just. Yeah.
• 1:09:07
  It just. Kind of comes.
• 1:09:08
  Together like that? Yeah, it's pretty special.
• 1:09:11
  Yeah, I. Really like that and.
• 1:09:15
  We're getting to the close to our time, so pulling our pulling
• 1:09:19
  our stories together here. I had a question that I was
• 1:09:24
  going to ask though that I don't usually ask, and now I can't
• 1:09:27
  remember what it is. Oh well.
• 1:09:30
  Oh. Well.
• 1:09:33
  Well, actually I am curious. What your?
• 1:09:35
  Reasons for why you weren't the right person, like what my dad's
• 1:09:40
  arguments to your points were. I wasn't particularly good at
• 1:09:44
  sports. Growing up and and he said you
• 1:09:47
  don't need to be exactly. He sort of had to look at me.
• 1:09:50
  He was. Shorter than I was and but he
• 1:09:52
  was very buff and he was he was really buff.
• 1:09:59
  I, I think I just, oh, and, and I thought, you know, my dad,
• 1:10:05
  interestingly, was a lawyer and I just, I predicted that my
• 1:10:11
  parents would not see it as a worthy path.
• 1:10:15
  And he gave me a lot of arguments about you not doing
• 1:10:19
  this for your parents. You got to think for yourself
• 1:10:22
  anyway, So I and and I just I didn't think it it and it didn't
• 1:10:28
  it didn't fit with my life script up to that point.
• 1:10:31
  It was a total departure. And he convinced me to depart
• 1:10:38
  and the. Dirtbag, because this is what
• 1:10:40
  your life really was supposed to be.
• 1:10:42
  And somehow he saw that. I like that.
• 1:10:47
  And. What would be some advice that
• 1:10:50
  you would give to to your younger self?
• 1:10:54
  Listen to Gabby. Obviously.
• 1:10:58
  Oh, you know, Sir. To my younger self.
• 1:11:05
  Yeah, I'd be much less hung up about what other people think
• 1:11:08
  about what you're doing. Oh, that's such a good.
• 1:11:11
  That's so. That translates into so many
• 1:11:13
  aspects in life. That is a great one.
• 1:11:16
  I would. Say.
• 1:11:17
  That's mine as well. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:11:21
  And do you have a favorite piece of outdoor gear or equipment
• 1:11:25
  that you always have with you or swear by?
• 1:11:29
  Yeah, not that I always have with me.
• 1:11:31
  But I actually have to choose to.
• 1:11:37
  I possibly have the largest collection of Sawyer ores in
• 1:11:45
  private hands. I should tell you that I'm not
• 1:11:49
  going to tell you my address. I'm going to count mine and then
• 1:11:51
  I'll also. That we can compare Sawyer Dino
• 1:11:56
  lights. I mean, Oh my God, I because I
• 1:12:00
  came of age and when we were all rowing ash ores and really
• 1:12:07
  durable heavy ash ores. So Sawyer, Dino Lights and then
• 1:12:15
  a. 10 foot so tar. I've more or less always owned a
• 1:12:19
  10 foot So Tar. The first one was in 1986.
• 1:12:24
  It was the 1st 10 foot So Tar ever built.
• 1:12:29
  Jim Cassidy and I custom ordered them and now I have a much
• 1:12:33
  younger one. But I mean, I loved R2 and
• 1:12:39
  there's nothing like that boat. Awesome.
• 1:12:44
  Yeah, and top of mind suggestions or advice for others
• 1:12:52
  wanting to recreate in Southern Oregon?
• 1:12:55
  Well. It's partly in California.
• 1:12:58
  But go. See the new Klamath for sure
• 1:13:01
  have to choose that yeah, yeah, that's a good and there's.
• 1:13:05
  There's big. Bend run up in Oregon and then
• 1:13:10
  two or three runs down in California.
• 1:13:12
  The one everybody's heard of is Kikucheki Canyon.
• 1:13:16
  But there's also what was under Iron Gate Reservoir and what was
• 1:13:20
  under Cavco Reservoir. And anyway, I'd say go see that
• 1:13:23
  because it's it's amazing and it's changing every year as it
• 1:13:27
  restores. And the tribes have done amazing
• 1:13:31
  restoration work and it's gorgeous in April and early May
• 1:13:38
  to drive around on Copco Road around what was Iron Gate
• 1:13:42
  Reservoir and see how the receding is taking root.
• 1:13:47
  And in particular the Copco Rd. because I was on the Copco.
• 1:13:51
  Road in May, I think of last year and we ran into, I think
• 1:13:56
  some poachers that told us not to continue down this road and
• 1:14:00
  we should go somewhere else. And they were like sketchy.
• 1:14:02
  And Sean was like, I should have had my gun with us just to be on
• 1:14:06
  the safe side because that was a really weird encounter.
• 1:14:08
  But we also ran into a pack of wild horses.
• 1:14:11
  And that was, there's lots of wild horses down there.
• 1:14:14
  But that's a little it was. Odd we didn't get down to the
• 1:14:18
  reservoir because these. That's really weird.
• 1:14:22
  Yeah, they were like, you shouldn't, This is all private.
• 1:14:24
  Property down here, this is a private road.
• 1:14:26
  We live down here. It was weird.
• 1:14:28
  We're like, Sean was like, I have a feeling Paved Rd.
• 1:14:33
  It was. No.
• 1:14:36
  Was it paved? No, it wasn't paved.
• 1:14:38
  It was the Dirt Rd. Dirt Rd.
• 1:14:43
  There on top of greens, well past green Springs out there,
• 1:14:49
  but I've done. Research in that.
• 1:14:51
  Area since when we got back so I was like I'm going to figure out
• 1:14:54
  like what is private owned and I asked my dad to because he's
• 1:14:56
  familiar with that area he's like that's not true that's
• 1:15:00
  weird that's real strange yeah they were just trying to keep
• 1:15:03
  you strikes me as really. Weird.
• 1:15:04
  Yeah, that's same with Sean. Got the Spidey sense?
• 1:15:07
  Went up when they were being like, yeah, you guys need to get
• 1:15:10
  out of here and this is private property.
• 1:15:12
  And then I went down there and I went down there on my maps or
• 1:15:15
  whatever and there's like a cabin for sale down there
• 1:15:17
  because I went on the MLS too and around.
• 1:15:20
  I'm in real estate. So yeah, just it's just
• 1:15:23
  interesting. I was like, sorry to interrupt
• 1:15:26
  you. I just wanted to bring my coke.
• 1:15:28
  So I was like, oh, I know where that kind of area is.
• 1:15:31
  Well, I was just saying that part of the.
• 1:15:34
  Receding is particularly at the top end of what was Iron Gay
• 1:15:40
  Reservoir. They put in a huge number of
• 1:15:45
  poppy seeds and it's so cool to drive there or particularly to
• 1:15:49
  do the iron gate float in April, early May.
• 1:15:53
  It's just gorgeous. Oh my God, there's a couple of
• 1:15:56
  slopes of just bright orange, thousands and thousands of.
• 1:16:00
  Poppies, yeah. Gorgeous.
• 1:16:02
  That's cool. Yeah, we'll have to go.
• 1:16:03
  Check that out. It's just.
• 1:16:05
  If not, we'll just drive down. There and yeah, just do a
• 1:16:09
  interview in. The.
• 1:16:10
  Poppies. Oh, that'll be kind of fun.
• 1:16:12
  Dream and. When your body expires and your
• 1:16:18
  soul leaves this plane of existence, how do you want to be
• 1:16:21
  remembered? Well, I.
• 1:16:25
  I'm I'm planning for my kids to do a Viking funeral, by the way,
• 1:16:32
  so just yeah, with the original 1986 so tar and they know this.
• 1:16:37
  So it involves the old. So tar me and up some lighter
• 1:16:40
  fluid and we'll try to do it in an environmentally sound way.
• 1:16:46
  And burning a rubber raft, yeah. Exactly.
• 1:16:48
  Not during fire season. I hope you also have a plan.
• 1:16:53
  BC. And D just in case that isn't a
• 1:16:57
  practical reality at the time. Yeah, well, although I'm not.
• 1:17:01
  I, you know, I've just been a little tiny bit player in dam
• 1:17:06
  removal, but there was a really neat of Facebook comment that
• 1:17:13
  Glenn Lumen, the former owner of SOTAR, who was a friend, said,
• 1:17:21
  which is he said you're going to be remembered.
• 1:17:59
  Sorry, we accept all emotions, yeah?
• 1:18:07
  It's safe here. Yeah, Glenn was another early
• 1:18:18
  mentor. Who passed away fairly recently.
• 1:18:24
  I didn't know that he passed, you'll be remembered for dams
• 1:18:41
  that aren't there. And as I say, you know, I'm just
• 1:18:45
  a small part of that, but it's a nice thought to be remembered
• 1:18:55
  for something that isn't there. A real observationist.
• 1:19:05
  That's a valuable. Legacy.
• 1:19:09
  Thank you, Bill. Thank you.
• 1:19:10
  It's been lovely. Yeah, it's really cool.
• 1:19:14
  Thank you for not just. This time but.
• 1:19:17
  All your time and all your work and all the efforts.
• 1:19:19
  Thank you and not not giving up when.
• 1:19:22
  It's. Gotten hard?
• 1:19:23
  Give up a ball. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 1:19:29
  Yeah, and if people. Want to?
• 1:19:31
  Learn more about you, your work and you want them to.
• 1:19:36
  Find you. Where can you be found?
• 1:19:38
  Oh, I don't. You know, I try to.
• 1:19:41
  Fly under the radar. I'm really pretty low key, so
• 1:19:45
  it's not like I've got a a page, but you know, really, I mean,
• 1:19:55
  you can you. Can find.
• 1:19:57
  The original book Western White Water on Amazon and a lot of me
• 1:20:02
  is in there along with my co-authors, but.
• 1:20:07
  And then I'm working on a book that I hope to finish in the
• 1:20:11
  next couple of years. But in the meantime, I'm most
• 1:20:15
  active in American Whitewater and I help, I'm still helping
• 1:20:19
  with the Klamath work. There is still work to do on the
• 1:20:24
  Klamath and I'm helping out at the their print journal, which
• 1:20:31
  is fun. So yeah, perfect.
• 1:20:35
  Going to keep keep going, keep throwing.
• 1:20:37
  Do you think you're Googleable? Yeah.
• 1:20:40
  I mean, there's a lot of. Bill Crosses who come up what
• 1:20:43
  Bill Cross Oregon I. Found myself.
• 1:20:45
  Yeah, totally. Or somebody that looks like.
• 1:20:48
  Me. So I mean.
• 1:20:51
  If there's. Anybody.
• 1:20:52
  To find it's yourself. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:20:55
  But. Yes, that is 1. 100% of me.
• 1:20:59
  Amazing. Thank you again, Bill.
• 1:21:01
  Thank. You really an honor to to host
• 1:21:03
  you and to know you. Yeah, lovely.
• 1:21:05
  Thank you. Yeah.
• 1:21:06
  And I. Love what you're doing.
• 1:21:07
  Thank you. Thank.
• 1:21:08
  You it's a great concept for a podcast.
• 1:21:11
  Thank you. Thank you very much.
• 1:21:12
  Delightful. We're.
• 1:21:13
  Pretty proud of it. Like.
• 1:21:15
  Follow Subscribe. Comment all the things, please
• 1:21:18
  and thank you. Get out on the water.
• 1:21:22
  I'm Emily. I'm Heather.
• 1:21:24
  And together we're go. Wildly.
• 1:21:27
  We've been working on that. We have a little talk coming up
• 1:21:32
  and we really want to, we really want to say that.
• 1:21:34
  Absolutely. So you've been practicing?
• 1:21:37
  That's a. Wrap on this episode of Go.
• 1:21:39
  Wildly from the bottom of our backpacks.
• 1:21:41
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• 1:21:44
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• 1:21:53
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• 1:21:58
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