Latest / One Universe, Two Books / Genesis and the Big Bang. Gerald Schroeder
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome everyone to episode two of the National Association of Scholars podcast, One Universe, Two Books. I'm Scott Turner. I'm Director of Science Programs at the National Association of Scholars, and I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Ian Oksnavad, who is Senior Fellow of Foreign Affairs and National Security at the National Association of Scholars. We have a very interesting guest today. He is an Israeli physicist. He's also an Orthodox Jew and he's going to be telling us about what he thinks and we're gonna be asking him the same thing. But Ian, why don't you tell us a little bit more about Gerald Schroeder and why we think he's going to be a very interesting guest. Thanks, Scott. I came across Dr. Schroeder's work a few years ago. I was in the middle of a of a spiritual crisis. My my father had passed away and came back in the hospital and is now thankfully okay. And that led me to a lot of questions about science and metaphysical questions about God. And I came across Dr. Schroeder's work, which approaches God through a scientific background, through a scientific approach. it he does talk about philosophy, Jewish philosophy, medieval philosophy. And that's where I came across him initially, but he's an American Israeli Jewish physicist. he teaches at currently teaches at Aisha Torah, which is a religious institution in Israel. He has his PhD in nuclear physics, which he received from MIT in nineteen sixty one. So he's he's been around. And he also worked in terms of arms negotiation. after the cold war and the in that arms control context, which is also interesting. So he's worked in multiple domains. his work is is interesting in that in his bio kind of speaks for itself. He moved to Israel in the 1970s when not many American Jews were doing that. So we'll we'll ask him questions about his approach to science and his motivations for research and how he approaches the big questions and What role science and religion played and if those were actually two different things or really just part of one single journey? Okay, this is going to be fun. I I see doctor Schroeder is in the waiting room, and so let's bring him in. All right. Well, let's get started. I mentioned in the intro, I came across your work a few years ago. my fat it was right before COVID, right around then, my my father had to have open heart surgery. And the the whole experience kinda led me to a metaphysical questioning, if you will. And I came across your work. Dr. Schroeder. W you explained God scientifically in five minutes and I'd never seen anybody do that quite so efficiently and in a way that made sense to someone with no theological questioning whatsoever in their background. And that stuck with me. And I and I actually emailed you and you emailed me back and at at the time I was actually looking at trying to go to to to Israel. I'd been there before with Birthright and a couple of other times before then. And it you know that never happened because of COVID, but I'm hoping this kind of makes up for it. And when I was looking at your bio way back then, I was really struck by how you your bio seamlessly combined elements of someone spiritually seeking. scientifically rigorous and for the lack of a better term, a man on a mission. And you up not only that, you applied it. You actually worked in in nuclear policy. So some of my questions, a lot of them th in the first half of this, are going to relate to, you know, what motivated you to enter physics? You know, how did this journey happen? Was this, you know, a series of epiphanies or was this something you kind of always wanted to do? speaker-1: Well, the I was always interested in science. It was clear that what I would study in in co in Alge University would be science oriented. W I grew up my my folks had a a the property we lived on is about forty miles from New York City, completely rural. It's hard to believe that that close to New York City. You could I could walk out of the house and see no other houses. We had an arch an orchard fairly large orchard. We had woods after school in grade school when I was much younger, I always would play in in you know, memory games, make up games in the in in this environment of co of complete c I don't I'll say nature. In those days I just saw it as our our woods and our orchard. And a few friends. It was pretty spread out so I didn't have too many friends. A lot of these playing was always game stuff with my with myself, just because the the nature is everyone had several acres or se or doom several dunum of land. And so that exposure plus the fact that we had this orchard, and mostly apples, but 50 or so apple trees, plus a few cherry trees, which the birds always ate before we got to them, a few pear and quince. And it's interesting that pruning the trees every year, because that's what the they require pruning of them every year, is like it may sound philosophical, but I think it's the case. You just see this change. Every you're not the same every year, and the trees are not quite the same, even though from the outside, a person that doesn't deal with them say, Look, they're apple trees, they're corn trees, they're peach trees, but you can see the difference. And and I I don't want to make it sound still philosophically or you know metaphysical, but the fact there's something doing that year by year linked into the fact that I was going to go into the sciences. I originally started in in at is all all all my university stuff is MIZ, bachelors, masters, PhD, seven years after orthophysics death. And I wasn't gonna go into physics. That wasn't my idea. I was going instead into engineering, chemie or s that like. But nature has a well there's a statement, it's a lovely statement. God puts you where God wants you. Okay? It's the it's I think it's a Chabad statement God puts so between classes I am now in in just at the b at the cusp of entering and finishing undergraduate and going to graduate. And had a break between classes. And it's an empty classroom. I didn't want to walk the half a mile back to where my dorm was. So I sat down in the class. All all of a sudden, the whole classroom fills up. And I'm stuck in the classroom. And the instructor walks in the teacher, Professor Robney Evans. He had such, I don't know, I can say charisma, he was so extraordinary. And the students all could see it in their faces as they looked forward to his classes. Yeah, I said I'll take another class by him. And that was the beginning of my getting into physics and into nuclear physics because it's Evans wrote the rather this goes back decades, obviously, the book The Atomic Nucleus, which was a standard text for basic physics and atomic physics, nuclear physics. And it wasn't necessarily weaponry, nuclear, we think nuclear, we think of bombs, but just understanding the extraordinary I'm s I'm reluctant to say it, but because I don't under prejudice, design, the extraordinary design of even an at of it, not even an atom. A T O that atom of an atom. The extraordinary design. You can nature you see it on the outside the wonders, looking at a tree and building etc. But even at the at the at the most fundamental level that we can study, there is such Exquisite. It's symphony. It's music. If you if look, maybe I haven't I'm open to it, so I see really as almost like like a symphony of nature. It's beautiful. And I think a lot of that that approach to seeing the world this way is the fact that when I was in grade school, high school and every spring of the year we prune the apple trees. It may sound may sound bizarre, but a I'll tell you that's what sticks in my mind as channeling me to wanting to understand nature more deeply. Understand the world. Understand the world. And I wasn't I I I didn't think I would go on in this field in grad school. Actually, I I was accepted at Wharton at Penn. Wharton is the ma one of the major business schools. And I went to visit some of my friends between undergraduate and graduate, had a a two-week break in that sphere. They convinced me to stay on in physics. So I wrote to Wharton and said, Thank you, but no thank you. I had a full scholarship, room board and everything. And 'cause it looked like I would be a good donor in the future with my my bachelor's. I think that's actually must be the case. In any event, and there I was then suddenly into into this in the physics and it was it's just the world's beautiful at every level. It's how I don't want to sound philosoph philosophical, but at every level of our existence there's real beauty and I c sound scorny, but like music. It just flows. Whether it's an apple tree, whether it's a whole orchard, or whether it's an atom, ATOM atom. It's just the world is beautiful and my guess is that there really is a designer. I don't know I don't want to purchase any of your listeners or whatever, but I think the aspect of design is present in our existence. And the deeper I study the physics of the world I study this I it seems that that that comes forward. So that's a long answer to a short question. speaker-0: No, the long answers are the best. they they give a lot. a long time ago I was reading Maimonides' Guide to the Perplexed, and I think he actually uses the term symphony at one point, or at least the way that they translated it from from the Hebrew, that the idea of of nature of the universe is almost the symphony of speaker-1: He well in his introduction to the guide for the perplexed, he says the best way of seeing this sinfia how he c calls it going to God, but the synphi in the world is to study to study science. To read the introduction to the guide for the perplexed. That's in year when was that published? I think eleven ninety approximately. speaker-0: Thank you. For our listeners who don't know, Moses Maimonides was a medieval rabbi and doctor who was from Spain. He was from Andalusian, Spain, and wrote a very famous book. I believe it was actually like a letter at one point because it was I think it was addressed to to one person, but it became this sort of hallmark of medieval philosophy and Jewish philosophy that spoke to not only across confessional lines, because Spain was a f especially in the elite social elite that he was a part of, he he was talking across lines to Christians and Muslims and also scientific exploration, which oddly enough, the confessional environment actually kind of led people to science and philosophy as sort of a a middle language. So it's it's a very famous book, Guide for the Perplexed. If you're interested in deep reading something that is not light, I highly encourage you to read it. the your your Orthodox Jewish faith, how did that interplay with science and when did that really start happening? Was that something from the beginning or did that did you have like a an uh-huh moment in MIT? How did that happen? Because you moved to Israel, I believe, in nineteen seventy one, which was at that time there weren't many there weren't many American Israelis at that time. so yeah, I'm curious to know how that how that happened in your work. speaker-1: It was the there is a a review of projects at MIT. we pro projects require money research projects require money. Money requires sponsors and the and we're have and sponsors want results. So we're having a w every year there's a review of the of the progress and and this is now I was in grad school doing this re in this research and it was sponsored by The Navy, the US, United States Navy. And it had to do with tracking s nuclear submarines. just on the side, the I don't think the project goes forward, so so clearly not classified. Nuclear nuclear submarines, obvious by definition, use nuclear reactors. Nuclear reactors split uranium atoms. When uranium atoms then to get the energy, when you break the atom apart, you get two atoms, but and but also a lot of neutrons, neutral particles are released. They carry energy. They because they're neutral, they can actually pass out of the reactor if they're not captured. And some pass into the seawater. Sodium chloride, the salt of the major salt of of the ocean, is very susceptible susceptible to becoming radioactive when a neutron smashes into the center of the atom. I was working on this project. I didn't know it was for the CIA. Don't tell he he he they I can remember the sentence meeting the people. the head of the la of the lab was there and should we should we tell should we tell Jerry Jerry Shorter, should we tell him where he is? And the head of head of the MIK no, he's smart, he can figure it out. Well it took me about a year to figure it out. the but what at the at a review of one of these meetings it took place At in at MIT, of course. And we went to the faculty club to have a very nice lunch. And being Navy, the first app the appetizer was shrimp cocktail. Okay. Now you may not realize, but in the Bible, for us, the one followers restrictions, if it's if it's living in the sea, it needs scales and fins. Well, it didn't take much biology to figure that, but that didn't affect me. I eat shrimp, I love them, they're delicious. Except I looked across the table and we were seated very specifically. So that on each side of us there was a a navy person with often a lot of metal up here. they were the ones who said yes or no on the sponsoring. On either side and opposite, so then diagonally there was another MIT person getting the same treatment. Diagonally across the table was a woman whom I knew. She was an Israeli now studying at at MIT in grad school. English was in her native language, but she obviously was pretty bright with the not having a the mother language being the science language. She was eating not the shrimp, but a mixed green salad. I couldn't figure out why would this person pass up this delicious shrimp and she's eating mixed green salad. And then suddenly it hit me in the head. She's relating to something in the Bible. D I'm remembering and I'll get goose pimples when I think about it. I put down my fork. Of the six shrimp I'd eaten three. There were three three more hanging on the cup, they hooked them across. In frank of the shrimp, it's the it's the sauce that tastes the best of all. But then and these the Navy officer across from me, remember we're seated so everywhere in your head, he said, You're not gonna finish the shrimp? And I said, No. And I had a feeling that he really would like me to pass them over to him. But I was pretty too it was a little bit too for formal for that. So I didn't and that was the last time. That made the the change was just like that. That woman didn't realize how she affected me. At least twenty years later, I'm dating myself, I met her son and and I talked with him, her son about about this, and at that meeting twenty years later she learned for the first time at that time that she had made the change. And then I just changed. I I started studying the Bible and I found it's really interesting. it's got a lot of good stuff in it. I recommend readers, whichever whichever of the gospels you want to read, they all have a lot of truth in them, so I'm not pushing one or the other. But for me it be it led to me becoming a a what we call an Orthodox Jew, you know, keeping the Sabbath Which is a great idea. Can you imagine one day a week you put away all screens? that could be revolutionary. besides if you're a smoker, which I'm not, but one week a week you don't you don't smoke also. You know, I mean there's a l there's a lot of benefits to to the to the Sabbath. And Christians make some Christians don't realize that the word Sabbath com is a Hebrew word comes from the word Shabbat, which means to late to rest. So that's the order of the word Sabbath, and we call In Hebrew we call the word Sabbath Shabbat. You can hear that they're almost the same. Has to do with sitting and resting and and so that is that is the origin. This woman eating a gr mixed green salad diagonally across from the table had been it's so interesting 'cause maybe you should see there were several tables. As far as I could s I remember that was the only green on any of the tables. And the so that was it clearly Something was b bubbling inside of me. Because I had an Orthodox grandmother, born in Kiev, actually, Kana. And when we would visit her, it was all keeping in what we call kosher, you know, keep saying the dietary trajection. And I never thought they were were were silly. She had that, I had science. Enough already, you know, but something was inside my head. It's been s explained dominoes falling. I sh my grandmother Hannah was over here, but there were dominoes leading to my consciousness. And when I saw that salad, the dominoes fell. Bingo. Jerry Schroeder now gives up shrimp. It's a big I mean, I like shrimp. So so that was it was I wouldn't say didn't know it was even reach a moment, but it was just suddenly realizing that this This person, this woman who had dedicated years before she came to MIT, years helping Holocaust victims. such a a good person and wanted to be a sci and but she wanted to be a scientist, so she did this wonderful work in Europe and Israel helping helping Holocaust survivors find some life back into their life. And then she's a native Israeli and then she came to to Israel to to the US to MIT. And and there she was, at this at this view. Now how to excuse me, yeah. speaker-0: That's no, that's it's a it's I think as time goes on, people they have little stories like that that they don't realize until later how those things actually affected them. And it's it's it's it's interesting that you bring it up and you had that. And the concept of two books is obviously one of the things in our podcast, it's in our title. But the concept of the book of Revelation or the Book of Life or Nature is very prominent in in Christianity. It's also actually prominent in Judaism, I'm blanking on the terms. But the the Sephiroth Torah and the Sephira Chai it's like this the book of life. when did these two tracks for you start to integrate into terms of how you approached questions, scientific or otherwise? speaker-1: I would guess a large of of the f I never thought of writing it wasn't like in my mind, no look at this, now I can write a book. Okay, that those books came long after this this revelation. Those books came a decade or so later. What what started me realizing that I had to get some good answers was we had our kid we thank God we have five kids, but my wife is Barbara Sofer. So for Schroeder's already a full name. Writes for the Jerusalem Post. She has a wonderful column every every two weeks. And if any of your readers want to get the weekly every for those that don't know, every every Sabbath we read a few chapters from the five books of Moses. And every Friday, my wife posts, and the post is open to anyone that wants it, a like a like a twenty-way t twenty-line summary on Facebook of of what the week's portion means. So if anyone is interested, they can contact me or you guys you can Scott or you can contact me like she has a few thousand followers already. so now I apologize, I got so far off off the topic. but what triggered it w w what is that what we're dealing with that what what triggered this or how to come about sp speaker-0: Yeah, how did how did questions of approaching speaker-1: Yeah, I remember that's right. speaker-0: the Bible start to integrate with questions of science and, start to weave together for you? speaker-1: Okay, I I if the we have kids. We for a while we lived in Zichron Yaakov, which is a of a town between Tel Aviv and Haifa. It's towards the north of Israel. Very close to Tel to Zichron Yaakov, there are we would call them mountains. They're they're like big high hills. And because those hills have lots of caves, cavemen lived in them. Okay, and it's been the reason it's caves is because of the hills are all corp calcium carbonate and seawater dissolved calcium, so it makes caves. So it was very popular, if you want it was popular housing in the in the pre pre Adam days and whenever you can say the caveman days. And we would occasionally on the Sabbath go for a hike and hike up in now in and visit those caves. Now now maybe in the last decade or two they've been highly developed. But those days there were a few s printed signs saying this this lived here and that that and there was a fresh water f well over there 'cause you have to have fresh water. No reasons why these caves were occupied. And they were interested. We just got into this idea of looking at at this earlier stage of humanity. Okay, and then then the kids go off to school and the school these the Grade school that we were sending them to was you'd call it religious, if you want to c that would be the term, I guess. And the teacher was concerned about whether there were dinosaurs or weren't. It wasn't there weren't any, but were there or weren't the big question. You know, because the Bible, does it talk about dinosaurs? I mean, the Bible doesn't talk about orange juice, so it doesn't have to talk about dinosaurs either. But the kids came home, some of our k we have thankful five kids quite space. In seven years we had five children, so you can imagine the pressures in the family. In any event, they one day they came home and said, Well, were there dinosaurs that weren't? Because our teachers says maybe they really weren't dinosaurs, and it's only a big make-believe story. And that made me realize that I needed answers that were amenable not just to to young people and also to adults. And that's what essentially that's what I never I had no Thought of writing a book. I just was formulated answers so the kid so our children would have answers that made sense biblically, theologically, and scientifically. Those three had to match. And I should think there'd be no problem because the author of the Bible is also the author of the universe. So, the if there's a if there's a Hebrew as a stirra, if there's a a conflict between the author of the Bible and the author of this universe, my guess something's you're not un we're not understanding. And unfortunately, there are many translations of the original Hebrew into English which have errors in them. a late colleague of mine, not close, but a late colleague of mine, one of you, Stephen J. Gould. From Harvard University, one of the leading paleontologists in the world, said he had to stop believing in the Bible because there was a mistake. Now, Stephen was real smart, but he didn't know Hebrew. So disturbed me, but unfortunately, I only saw his error after his death. Well, look, the Bible says there were birds back in I don't recall which day. And his translation translated the word oaf to bird. And and that's that's a a sad mistranslation because the word today oof means a chicken, but biblically oof means any animal with wings. But his translation, which if that were the Bible, it's wrong. His translator didn't say winged animals, it said bird. And there were no birds, I think it was a day four if I'm remembering correctly. Gold was correct. That Bible was wrong. But what was wrong with the translation? Of means any animal with wings, and it turns out the the the vibe is spot on. The earliest flying animals which weren't be pterodactyls, they would be insects. Obviously insects. They appear on that day. To me it's like an epiphany. 'Cause normally if a person's writing the book, he wouldn't put birds back there 'cause the first born b known birds in the in the fossil record are way until day. So the fact that the text actually has and it uses the word flying in if I'm translating the Hebrew into English, it uses the word flying in flying animals. It doesn't use the word bird. But and repeating myself, I apologize. But Stephen J. Gore, who's a wonderful human being, you know, loved the Bible as literature, but s saw that it was wrong because they weren't that's his field, paleontology, and how a How could God make such a blooper as put birds back on? But God didn't make a blooper, the translator made the blooper. And and Stephen, unfortunately, which surprised me in retrospect, that he would criticize a text that he couldn't read, because Stephen did not know Hebrew. And many persons who criticize the the, I'm using the Hebrew five books of Moses, they criticize the five books of Moses. Aren't criticizing the five books of Moses, they're con cr criticizing the concept that a translator had to make it friendly. So the translators often would change words to make it friendly. I I think the Septuagint, for example, read I don't read I don't read biblical Greek, my our friend Dan Danny Schwartz does, but you can get the you can get the Septuagint in in translation on on Google and it says in the beginning God made the heavens and earth. And I checked with with with Professor Schwartz to see if that's the the true Greek because he a a cut a friend of ours half a mile away from us knows teaches biblical Greek also. And the biblical the Septuagint does say in the beginning God made the heavens and the earth. Now the Hebrew says Briya create in the beginning God So why was the Greek changed? The Septuagint changed? Because the translators realized that the Greek philosophy at the time did not accept creation, that the that the stuff of the universe always existed, and God worked with it like a potter works with clay to make the universe. So the Greek translation, to be Greek philosophy friendly at the time, was not God created the universe, it was God made the universe, and that's what the Septuagint Septuagint tells us. So it's a crucial difference of a philosophy that required something some stuff, the clay of the universe to be eternal, and then d then then God takes that clay and makes the universe, or the word creation, which is creation extinct, creation of s nothing physical into something physical. That's what the Bible claims. And that certainly seems what Triwan talks about the scientists. Tryin' was the first of the scientists. to suggest that the universe could be created by a vacuum vacuum fluctuation, provided you had the laws of nature, and you can change that potential with the laws of nature of nothing physical into something physical. And if you go to NASA's site right now, and there's a beautiful I don't have it in front of me, but there's a beautiful diagram shows the universe it like a cone showing different time periods. And it shows at the beginning not GOD but vacuum fluctuations. In other words, science today, then in the as as presented by NASA for for for for space science, that that the laws of nature to have a vacuum fluctuation create the universe means that the laws of nature predate nature. That's a phenomenal statement. The laws of nature had to predate nature to create nature. Because physics allows in something physical to fear from nothing not from provide you have the potential and the laws of nature, primarily quantum physics and and relativity. And Ed Tyron saw that and now now NASA has accepted. But they don't give his name, which is really sad, 'cause he went to his grave with almost no with almost no pray praise. It's the same. It's brilliant insight that But but what would that what that means is and and since NASA and why use NASA as that she's the major public figure of our understanding of the universe. Has in its description of the creator of universe that qu that the universe is created by quantum fluctuations. That's you need quantum fluctuation, quantum physics, in other words, and relativity. And that's NASA does not see that as a theological statement, but it's a phenomenal statement. The laws of nature predate nature. And if you look at the description of the laws of nature, they're very similar to this description of God as ma the there are several names for God in the Bible. Genesis is all Elochim. That's God as made manifest in nature. There are other names for God in the Bible, but that's the one for God acting in nature. And that's the only name for God used in Genesis chapter one. And and with the laws of as You take those laws of nature, quantum physics and relativity, as Ed Triran pointed out, and you can make a universe from nothing, provided you have the quantum reality that predates, which means that previous that be that more fun that more fundamental than matter and space and energy, there's essentially a mind. I mean, that's really what we come down to. There is a mind and and then when you would read the philosophical writings of the of the quantum physics physicists today, major ones, Wald, Heisenberg, they all have said they the the writings are now twenty decades ago twenty twenty years, thirty to forty years ago, that there is a mind, MINT mind at the basis of the universe. And to to paraphrase w the Nobel laureate La Wald, who got his Nobel I price for the act of vision, how vision works. he s he writes it is not that the universe has developed the mind it is that mind has developed the universe has produced un has made up developed universe on prior paraphrase that mind that mind is more fundamental than the physical material of the world. That mind breathes into this magnificent whatever, a universe filled with the wonder of material existence. The universe is amazing, it's phenomenal. Anyone wants to believe in God, study physics. speaker-0: yeah. No, that's that's huge. there's so much there. It's interesting in the I we mentioned it in the past episode that so few people actually know biblical Hebrew or Greek to even try to approach any of these questions. In the beginning in in Hebrew, Brish Bereshit Barai Elohim, the the the first letter of the Hebrew Bible, there's nothing before it. And in in Jewish thought, that's a huge concept because nothing there's nothing before, that point in the universe. There was just God. speaker-1: It will explain that the bait is closed in all directions. The first letter of the Bible is a Hebrew letter called no people who don't realize A B C D Olaf Beit Gimaldala. Those are the the Hebrew letters predate the English letters and the first letter, I apologize for jumping in the on, but just because I'm not sure they realize that the bait is closed in all directions and only open in the further direction. So you have a beginning going forward. It's a br a brilliant a brilliant insight. yeah we call who who puts it out, but speaker-0: Well it I think it might have been H but I think Scott wants to jump in. so I'm an evolutionary biologist, but I'm a little bit of a heterox evolutionary biologist. I I was a pretty staunch Darwinian for a long time. I no longer am, and the thing that made me part company with my Darwinian brethren was that I simply could not explain what I was seeing in in my research without having some kind of mind at work there, you know, and and and of course that doesn't go down well with the with the Darwinian tribe or actually most of the most of the biological tribe because we are so focused on mechanism and details and physics and and chemistry and all those kinds of things. And one of the problems there is that People think normally or almost universally that life is the outcome of mechanism, right? That you can actually understand life by sorting out all the all the details of what chemical reaction goes on here and what reaction mechanism, all the way up to food webs and things like this, you know, that that that that what you're seeing about life is the outcome of a mechanism. But When you start looking into that, you very quickly run into the fact that, well, no, that can't be right, you know, because the integration of everything in in a living being and in an ecosystem, it's kind of what you were saying with the Big Bang, you know, that that that the the when you look at the integration of this, there's simply no way that you can get this remarkable phenomenon out of simple mechanism. And what you really need to do is you need to start thinking about the mechanism as the outcome of something. In other words, the mechanism is not the cause, it's actually the effect, if you will. And what's back there, it's some kind of a mind, you know. Now I also differ from my intelligent design colleagues in that I'm not quite ready to go to basically the platonic god that they are talking about, but there is a certain fundamental intelligence at work in living things, you know, and and and this is this is where I'm s sitting in the middle. I I I can make sense of life if if I think of it as the outcome of some kind of a mind at work, some kind of an intelligence at work, for example. But that intelligence you can actually posit it right within the organism itself, for example. You know, Aristotle had a had a had a name for this. He called it the Bios and everything about the living being is organized around its peculiar B. But I have a hard time doing that for the universe, which is what you have been exploring, you know, so so what insights do you have into the nature of the mind that gave rise to all of this? Where did it come from? Where does it sit? Does it sit anywhere? I'd just be interested to hear your thoughts on that. speaker-1: Well I The concept of something being not just infinite, that's not Nitzchi eternal. The Hebrew word is Nitzchi eternal. it's it's hard to intellectually un internalize something eternal. It's different than infinite. Infinite just means it never ends, but it might have had a beginning. But the fact that there may be something that that has always always existed and what does always mean? y we we live s like a a a f a s a fleeting moment and I so to for me to try to understand what inf what eternal or Nitzhi means it no beginning and no end, it doesn't hit I I can't understand it. But what I can understand is when I look at the universe at at every level and I come down to especially the solar system, which you understand, then I see a design that's not so that they should I mean just to I'm I'm jumping from your question just to see to understand what I want to bring in in what I want to bring in is I want to drag I can't get my hand I want to drag the creator into the creation. And make the creator active in the creation. Okay, that's that's that's really my goal. Like there's a creation, a beginning of the universe. You can be you can be an atheist, which means you're against God, make an agnostic, which you don't know, a b yes or no, and you can be hallelujah as a god or every second. But we all understand that there's a beginning to the universe. And the basic question that I I think is. The one that has to be answered, is that which is that which created the universe still interested in the universe? Or is that which created a deus a deist god that would be just winds up the system and let it run? And so I my feeling is that to to to make the world better, it sounds strange, but how we want to say that to in to get this idea of a of a loving, interested creator. into the universe, I have to try to dig out aspects of I'll call it design that look too good to be true by by randomness. The so so I can't remember his name. His book wrote a book about 20 years of evolution. of if it cut the name count it's on my shelf, it's in another room. He just speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: says something that beg your pardon speaker-0: Is it Richard Dawkins that you're thinking? speaker-1: No, no, no, it was totally totally he he's a person that says he's not sure he's a god, but he sees so many how how evolution made so many right choices that mo that in this that that's now almost paraphrasing him, that there are so many wrong choices, and only one of them is gonna work. The others are gonna lead down to dead ends. And time and a time in evolution, nature seems to have made. the right choice. And if I get it remember his name, I'd like just to the book is published at least twenty years ago. I think it's called Evolution, but in any of them there's there's so many even the place but to bring God further in, if I look at the distance of the planets from the sun, that's something interesting me is more like the physics. Every planet, for the first like Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, then there's asteroids, Saturn, you For the first Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, asteroids, Meriz, Jupiter, because the asteroids wanted to be a planet, but they couldn't because of Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter's so powerful, so huge, it broke up the planet that would like to be there. Every one of those is twice as far from the sun as the previous one. If you knew one distance, the distance from the Sun to Mercury, within ten percent, you would know you'd know the distance of Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Asteroids, Jupiter, Saturn. Every is is twice as far. There's only one habitable zone. You be I'm I'm sure I'm saying things you you both know and Ulysses know, so I apologize, but there's only one habitable zone where water will be liquid, gr but not so liquid there'll be vapor, you know, and and v like like Venus or boiling or like Mars won't. But a planet that has the right gravity to hold an atmosphere, has the right distance from the sun to to keep water liquid, not solid or vapor, has it goes on, I mean there's dozens of has continental drift. No continental drift, no mountains. No mountains. The amount of water in the oceans today would cover a semi-smooth earth. by one and a half to two kilometers of depth of water. Most people have never swam in water a kilometer deep. I have, of course I've gone in ocean wrecked vessels and we dive off when we just, have for fun, dive off the the vessel into this mild deep water. but so so the amount of water if we did not have continental drift, we wouldn't have the mountains. What why are the Andes and the Iraqis on the w on the west coast? Because the earth earth where the earth, the North America and South America are moving away from from Europe. Gump also politically but but but also d distance wise about a centrum or so a year. And that piles up the rock and the on the west side 'cause it's moved from east to west and you get the rock the the mountains. And without mountains there wouldn't be the weathering to form land above the s of of above of sea level. So there's so many nuances in the earth besides this exact perfect distance, gravity. Go on and on on these many books published on them. That it looks like that the creator of the universe was also is not was is also interested in the universe. And that interest may be to get sentient sentient vil I think that's the word s beings that can investigate and discover him, her or it, you know, not to be prejudiced. Because that's that's what we have. We have the ability to discover whether it's chance or s this with likelihood statistics whether these things could all have happened by chance. And we've been given that brain, and we live in a time, you know, this this era is is is fortunate. You go back a hundred years, you don't have the the equipment f to do this now. With the first when I say we being the first, like plus or minus fifty years or so, humans Able to make the measurements. Our time is really special. We are the first, you can believe look, not everyone is the Moses Maimonides that can see it in nature. He's a doctor, so he's sort of wonder of life. But otherwise, we have in our time really, I'll be peating myself for the third the the instruments and the one to measure statistically and mathematically and physically. The physical wonder of the Earth and the wonder of our planet Earth. If there's other life in the universe, I would not be surprised. I certainly would not find it a problem zero. If you go back about five years, all these flying objects are reported by by Navy pilots. You know, it wasn't just a guy in a in a you know looking up in the middle of the night. So is the life elsewhere in the universe? That's that's I f frank if I think if life exists intelligent life exists elsewhere that can make a flying machine to get to us absolute proof of God active in the universe because you know, I mean, there's a limit to how our brains and and ha to develop such systems because phenomenal in insight. speaker-0: Well that's speaker-1: The kids ask just to say what got me into like getting apologize jump different what to write the books. We lived in Zikaronakov, there were these caves, or that's what I got off the track with the rain making caves and cavemen, and we went through the kids and the kids came back and they go to school and some teachers say yes, it's t they were there, some say they couldn't be because Adam is the first. Adam was the first human being, but not the first person. There's a big difference. Adam gets the soul of humanity. All Hume all people have the soul of of of being a a a how should I say the in a the soul of life. But Adam was the first changed a person into a human, not a physical change, but an intellectual change and where he realized or he was taught that there's a oneness in the universe. speaker-0: I g I gotta I gotta jump speaker-1: But I think it's speaker-0: I gotta jump in here because most people who I know what you're talking about, most people who don't know Hebrew, the the term for that that God uses to to actually create the universe, the ruach, it's or the it's translated as wind, sometimes as spirit through Greek, but that term ruach isn't just the creative principle of the universe, it's also the thing that elevates a human being. spiritually. It's the thing that resurrects the dead in the book of is is is it Isaiah, I believe. and you have a a whole host of this appearing word that affects individual change of a moral and spiritual nature as well as the thing that creates the universe itself and that is an aspect of God. speaker-1: Yeah, that's the th and and that's what humans have that make us qualitatively different from other animals. Animals want life. They'll they'll fight to they'll fight to p protect their young. We all know I mean all this is obvious, but humans have a well, I think it may look it may discover animals have it also as far as I I I understand it in science. We have something spe there's a nefish. the soul of life, and then there's a nishamah and given the Hebrew now. The Nefish is the soul of life, all forms of life have some level of a nefish. But humans have on top of that a nishama. And the th it's very similar word, but the nishama is is is inf infused into a Homo sapien sapien. That's how I I don't want to prejudice an what any of the the re the listeners or The Homo sapiens sapiens go back 130,000 years on earth. And they had the same morphology, the same body shape, the same skull size, brain size. And they had a nephesh, the soul. They invented farming. Thousands of years before Biblical Adam, they invented farming. We'd all be dead in a in t in a week if we if we were living in their environment. Right now, if we were plugged down. But what what they didn't have was the Nishama. And the British muse and you see a change. That and I I say literally, thank God. Barbara my wife is Barbara Barbara. Her full name is Schroeder Sophia Schroeder. My wife writes under the name Sophia, which means writer. She before we were married, that was a professional name, Barbara Soda. Just a column in the Jerusalem Post. In any event, we we were visiting in in in London, had went to the not to the Science Museum, but the British Museum. And there was an exhibit. The first cities. This is the British Museum. No religion here. The fur the first first cities, the earliest cities is the one you can probably download the it's an exhibit from about twenty years ago that's we bring back from. And what are the first l the first large cities? There were villages before this, but there was and I I liter literally the curate curator of this exhibit was there. Unknown notes and I I so I can speak to him and I said, I asked him, what made the change? And he said, We have no idea. Because it wasn't a population explosion, because the change was within within one hundred years of the biblical date of Adam going back in time from now g you were w I forgot the year today, 57 or something. If you go back that time to biblical, the Bible gives ages. Why does the Bible give ages? That's a question. Who cares if Adam and Eve lived 130 years before they had their third kid? Apparently, the author of the Bible did care. The Bible didn't have to include ages. Then there'd be no problem about the age of the universe, but it does. And it allows us to establish. So the in this British Museum, it is it talks about the first large cities, and the date is the date. of Adam, biblical Adam, not to the not plus or minus fifty if they give it a a round number. It is the number of years you can add up the numbers from the Bible say when Ad how long ago biblical Adam did the wrong given. And I asked him what was the change? And his answer was very enlightening. We have no idea. It wasn't the population explosion that went back thousands of years earlier with the invention of farming. Because there was a popul we know the answer. Before there was so there were people around, then the Shema comes into the world at the time of Biblical Adam and it changes the human animal into the human person, how should I say it? The p changed the person into a human. How's that? The Homo sapiens sapiens had brains, looked like us, probably talked like us, they invented farming, so for sure, they had language. But the Homo sapiens sapiens changed from being, let's say, people. To humans, when the nishamah, when the soul of human life puts in, and how is that evidenced? This museum exhibit it didn't mention the Bible and I didn't mention the Bible curator, but it dates the change from villages to large cities. And the date is Adam, it just jumps jumps off the wall. Because before you had a nishama, you couldn't have a large city. Before you had a nishamah, it was all about you, not about us. Then the Shema knows that the Shema knows exactly the key sentence for Christianity and Judaism. Jesus says it's I think it's in Mark and Matthew. I know it from I just happen I I'm not I'm amazed that I know that, but I happen to pick up in a radio. Here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Shmeiswell Hem to him, Shemakha. Jesus says that's the most important. I think Mark and Matthew, one of those books, that's the most important. And the next most important if you have to if you love your neighbor as yourself, Leviticus. Okay, we have to live. So so this understanding of a oneness changed the world. The Nishama, the soul comes in and suddenly you can have a large city. People from different clans could live together. Before the Nishama, if you weren't my clan, you were dinner for night. I had you for dinner cooked or roasted. Literally. It was a dog eat dog world. And Shama changed the world. The British Museum gives this the date. you gotta realize why again ghost papers are it it's it's phenomenal. It's it's the stuff is really true. It's speaker-0: It's it's interesting that your work you know, I I have a Jewish background, so I'm I'm more familiar with this, but in in Jewish context, theology, theological concepts and science are not necessarily antithetical or strange bedfellows. And your work as it started to integrate these things created a lot of buzz, especially around some of your books in like the nineties, early two thousands. what is what is some of like what have you heard? from scientists, from Christians, from agnostics, from from these different traditions as you sort of integrated these things into one worldview, because to a lot of listeners this will sound very unusual. it seems less unusual, if you're if you're familiar with the work of like Aish where you work for you work with they do a lot of work like this and and Scott can chime in and ask, you know, follow up questions. what do you think Scott? If you Well, I c if you if you go from the work of our last guest, he's Gerald, he's a very interesting Christian thinker named Nick Spencer, and he's made exactly the point that Ian has just made that this notion of there being some fundamental opposition between the scientific view of the universe and the religious view of the universe, That kind of division doesn't really work. And in fact, when people are are pushing this division, that's when science tends to stagnate. in in other words, the most fruitful periods for both science and religion have been when, you know, they get along. The the the the two books basically get along there. And and so, you know, that underscores what Ian has said. But what I would like to ask is You used the word choice several times in in in in our conversation, and this is really kind of a fundamental point, isn't it? You know, the e even in evolutionary biology, for example, th the the philosophical mindset has been to deny the existence of choice. In other words that If you look at evolution or natural selection, there's no choice involved. It's just, can you get the genes through the selective filter from one generation to another? And and you know, this has been one of the main shortcomings, I think, of the Darwinian point of view. And and biologists are s now coming around kind of to the idea that no, you know if you see choice it's not an illusion, it's something real. If you see intelligence, it's not it's not something that's illusory, it's actually something quite real, and that's something that that w we so far are failing to explain with the strictly mechanistic outlook on what life is, you know, that that that life is inherently intentional, it's inherently intelligent, it's inherently capable of choices and striving towards goals and things like that. And and and and so at least in the life sciences, choice is becoming a respectable concept again. And and I was just thinking while you were mentioning that, how does the choice manifest itself when you start getting outside of the realm of life? You know, in in in other words, you know What were the choices that were made and how do they manifest how were they made and so forth that that basically set up the universe? are they different from the way life works? Are they the same? you know, how how do those choices actually work when we're talking about, say, the Big Bang or the origin of the universe? speaker-1: Are we asking, did the creator of the universe have a choice whether to create the universe or not? My f guess is, and I probably I think it matches, but I'm not sure matches the theological understanding that God chose to create the universe. In Deuteronomy, God says, I place life and death before you, choose life. It's an explicit statement that you have the choice between between the a good life and a bad life. I played that life and death before you therefore choose life that you can live. Did God have a choice in creating the universe? Well since the universe was not created infinitely long ago according to the best measurements, looks like God may have been, you know Debating the debating should I do it? And we ha there's the whole the whole what's called Mitra, the whole story with the angels saying don't do it, and God says do it. You know, there's a whole the probably Christian religion is probably also this argument between whether arguing with God whether to create the universe or not. concepts of in infinity don't fit at least into my brain, or I don't know if they fit into anyone's brain, but before there was a universe, were there other universes? Or was there nothing? Now as I say in one of my videos, nothing doesn't fit in a human brain. Black sp empty space isn't nothing. It's space. It may be empty, but space is something. So I c I can't I don't think if maybe others can. I cannot understand conceive existence of nothing, but I think in fact that's ex not that in fact there was nothing physical In in relationship to our universe there was nothing physical. Are there other universes? Maybe Scientific America almost an embarrassing in an embarrassing understanding wrote I don't have it in front of me, but it's I've I've actually saved it. It's from about a two decades ago. Said the fact that our universe is so perfect implies that there are other universes that are not imperfect. Well, I don't think it implies either one. but that's it was rather b it's almost hu humiliating to h see that logic. The fact that our universe is perfect implies that there were other universes that are not perfect and we're just the one that happened to come out perfect. That was the logi I don't know if it's still the logic, because that goes that cover if we had time afterwards I can show it to you. You can w put put it on your your site if you want to. The actual cover of the Scientific America that that that says that. speaker-0: Well as sorry, as you know, you know, bad logic has a has a life lifetime that often far outlasts good logic, you know, and and and you know the the the the the whole existence of alternate universes is really a way around the difficult question, you know, and you and you sort of hinted at it with, you know, the the the the conditions that led to the existence of the universe that we're inhabiting right now. And of course this falls under the anthropic principle. You know, you have to have fine tuning of all the different kinds of physical constants. And and I'm just, you know, wanting to probe your mind. Do you do do you think that or the existence of the anth or the anthropic principle is is a is is is is an indicator of the choices that were made at the beginning of the universe that set up the beginning of the universe. Or do you think we're just kind of lucky, you know, we inhabit the universe that we're in because all these consonants just happen to be the right way and you know, how would we know if the consonants were different because we wouldn't exist, you know, that's a kind of a kind of a circular argument there. And and and so I'm just I'm just interested in knowing what you think, you know, are speaker-1: I think it is the speaker-0: Existence of the is the existence of the anthropic principle an indicator of the choices that were made by God, whatever you want to call it, at the beginning of the universe? Are we here because of those choices? speaker-1: I would I I think it's it's clear that our universe is too good to be true. everything so many aspects one after the other goes. On the other on the other hand, at the Cambian explosion of life about a half a billion years ago, there were about doing this for memory, I don't have any fun re about thirty or forty types of life. Like w we have n the the spinal cord, there are other they're about di different form general forms of life. And of those thirty of those forty, there were th of those approximately more than forty, I don't remember the number, about ten of them died out immediately. It's almost as if God had if if there can't be an explosion of life, which is half a billion years ago, which in which every body plant that exists today, not people, but the but the but of a body form that had a notochord, a spinal cord, etc. and etc for the other thirty thirty-four, I think it is, body plants that exist today come into being, but there are also about six or seven that didn't make it past the first screening. They didn't make it. So what does that tell me? It's it's it's an it's an interesting phenomenon. If I want to think about the Cambridge explosion in a parallel to the creation of the universe, then maybe maybe it's Ma something had to create something from nothing. If it was the laws of nature that pr that predate the universe, they call it Elochim, the first name for God used in the Bible. Whatever you want to have it this way. and could it be that there were other universes that that didn't make it? I don't I don't have to go that route, but that could s there's no I think there's no way of disproving that. The fact that our universe is literally perfect. for c sustaining life, not for starting life, no one has a clue about starting life, but for that our universe is perfect for sustaining life, indicates either God is designed, or this is gazillion different types and the gazillion minus one all disappeared and one the one that remained. I take the I take f from the nature of God and also for revelation, which I believe whether you take it is Christian or Christian or Jewish or whatever Mohammed, whatever. I think the fact that that across the board we have examples of revelation indicates that the creator of the univer, that there was a creator of the universe, that the creator is interested in the universe, the creator is still active in the universe, and well I'm just saying those are the indic and that the that the development of the universe. The example, the placing of The fact that Earth just now there's so many other stars, it could be another star has the same but so far we haven't seen it. the the the Goldilocks, the Goldilocks theory that it's that it's all perfect. What does that prove? It it proves it doesn't prove that we're the only universe, and that's the argument that Scientific American used a few decades ago, and after we get off the show, if you remind me, I'll show you the c the cover after you dig through my papers to find, which talks about this. That there are that could be millions of wash-out universes. And obviously the one that doesn't wash out has life. That's what makes it not a not a washout. speaker-0: Yeah, I I I speaker-1: That God wants us to understand this act is what I would call revelation. And I may be more naive, but I actually believe there was revelation. and I live my life according to that, obviously. speaker-0: The thing about revelation, of course, is that you have to have your eyes open to be able to see something that's being revealed, and and and this is why one of the reasons why we're trying to explore this interface between revelation and reason, because each informs the other. I have to jump in. You mentioned the Cambrian explosion. I have a few thoughts about that. You know, there there there have been lots of theories that well just the oxygen went up in the atmosphere of the earth and that's what set off the Cambrian explosion and and I think that's fundamentally wrong. That's a whole topic that's worthy of its own webinar, I think. But the thing about the Cambrian actually I prefer to call it the Cambrian efflorescence because it took place over about, you know, a few tens of millions of years, but but you know the the the thing about the the Cambrian efflorescence is that life, which had been cellular previously, had discovered a new dimension, which is the social dimension in life. And that led to opening up a whole new range of possibilities of ways of living. And, you know, the argument that, well, some ways of living were just you know, bad and didn't work. the living things back then, life always has a choice. c to come back to that word. All life always has a choice, it always strives towards something. And the sorting out of the Cambrian efflorescence into the few body plans that we have right now was a result of a series of deliberate choices on the part of the living things themselves. You know? I don't think you can just dismiss it as just natural selection, killing off some groups and allowing others to to live, that I think ignores the level of choice and intentionality that was operating there. and with respect to the anthropic principle, you know, I don't think you can see that there are choices being made without the eyes being open to see that revelation. And that's actually what science always is, you know, we we we think about the universe in a certain way, all right, that seems to make sense, but then There's this other always this other dimension that you have to have eyes open to be able to see. And you know, y you are an exemplar of that, I think. And you know, I I I I think that you know, this is the reason actually behind this webinar, because that's actually where the most fruitful intellectual advancements take place. When you can ask nature, reasonable questions, but then your eyes are open to be able to to open to the revelation of some really contrary thoughts. speaker-1: I in in the fifth book of the Hebrew Bible, Deuteronomy, I think it's chapter nineteen, God says, I I place life and death before you, the blessing and the curse, therefore choose life. So y y you wouldn't think the choice would be life and death, but you can sit to define death many ways, just wasting your time away, killing time, for example. and the choice is and the and that's probably the major choice statement in in the Bible and it juxtaposes place life and death, choose life that you can that you can actually life and death the blessing and the curse to choose life that you can live. So I think the name of the game, and I think life a call out to the game the g like the game of the is choice. When we get when we get to humans, I think then the entire aspect is is choice. We're given we're we're We g we're put in a situation, who Burnbow Burnbow says it, how we react to that situation is our choice. Many times we can't control the situation in which we are placed in. Could be political, could be social, could be financial, but how you react to that situation is determines your position on let's say in a letter a ladder. L A D D or Latter of how you relate to the universe, to its creation and its creator. And you can be an extraordinarily wonderful person and still see the universe as being totally material. But the choices that you will make, you will notice, are so fundamentally related. to the basics of what we call religion and compassion. And and the big the big thing is r recognizing the other, the the buzz, you know, that outside of you there's a reality that has to be detected. Persons that don't see that will usually not also will make put this way, person says, I'm not religious, but I care for my neighbors and I give charity. I mean, you know, that's the name of the game. I mean you know You should love your neighbor. I think Jesus says that's the second most extent. Behafter in Leviticus chapter 19, verse 18. You should love your neighbor as yourself, the third ch the third book of the Hebrew Bible. Look, the fact that we're given this phenomenal emotional thing called love. how did the big dang didn't produce produce energy? The energy became electric molecules. How did a molecule learn to feel the wonder of love? it must be built into the universe. I when I think of this, I actually get goose pimples because the physical be there as far as I understand, there's one physical creation called the Big Bang Creation of the Universe. Those things okay, there's a mind, but somehow, sometime in inside us, you can have this phenomenal, phenomenal emotion of love. The it's just like it's overwhelming. And where does it come from? F which electron in the Big Bang got stuck in my head that can make me love my wife? In other words, where's it come from? So maybe that's also part of the idea we talked the beginning of a mind, I and D mind being present. And we are all s we're s I see it is we are splinters of that mind. That we that that mind of the universe part the very Parts of it are are within us and therefore we can communicate sometime with them. I don't know I don't I don't know how, but somehow we can realize this or try to realize this essence. This essence, which seems to be the fundamental. It's not it's not by chance that Judaism and Christianity, I I don't know if I'm about Islam, but you should love your neighbor as yourself. The that the first statement is is Dunaith chapter six. I've got the fo we're a mental block. Here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, it's in Matthew. And the second is you should love the haftal each of you should love your neighbor as yourself. These are phenomenal statements. And you can t find the major atheists who will also be philanthropists and they'll don't I don't believe in that God, but I'm giving ten million dollars to build a hospital. You know, I mean how much How much greater love can you can you show than giving yourself and the stuff you work for? speaker-0: There's a Well, on the nature of love, I think that's a good spot to say thank you, Gerald Schroeder, for a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed having the chance to talk to you and hearing what you have to say. And again, Ian and I are very grateful that you were speaker-1: I say thank you for giving me the opportunity of discussing with you and having this this this trialogue or dialogue, have you wanna see it? speaker-0: Believe me, it's our pleasure. Okay, so that was our conversation with Gerald Schroeder, fascinating guy, working at the working at the interface of of of faith and science in some very constructive and interesting ways. we're going to sign off now, but before I do, I just want to mention that this is a podcast that's sponsored by the National Association of Scholars. We are a member driven organization. if you're already a member, you're you're supporting this and we thank you for your ongoing support. And if you're not a member and you enjoyed it, please consider joining us as a member. We really appreciate any support that we can get. And we're an interesting community of scholars and we always are open to welcoming On that note, we will say goodbye until our next episode, and until then, see you then.