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LUIGI MANGIONE DEFENSE: "I WAS EMOTIONAL WHEN I GUNNED DOWN CEO" · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: The so called health care assassin. Luigi Mangione's defense bombshell.
0:06
Speaker 1: He claims, I was quote emotional when I gunned down
0:11
Speaker 1: CEO Brian Thompson in cold blood. He was emotional. I'm
0:17
Speaker 1: emotional just talking about him being emotional emotional when he
0:22
Speaker 1: gunned down Brian Thompson, a married father of little boys
0:28
Speaker 1: sentence to life without their dad, and he was emotional.
0:33
Speaker 1: Good evening, I means he grace. This is crime stories.
0:36
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. Did
0:46
Speaker 1: they actually say in court that their client, Luigimiani is
0:52
Speaker 1: the victim because his quote beautiful, promising life has been derailed?
0:57
Speaker 2: His team did paint him as some with a promising future.
1:01
Speaker 3: One thing that they say here is that the real
1:04
Speaker 3: enemy here is the medical system that.
1:07
Speaker 1: Is feeling no pain. There, Kili Brantley, I hope you
1:10
Speaker 1: don't fall for that footling and seeker. Let me understand
1:14
Speaker 1: what is happening now. I know why there was a
1:18
Speaker 1: secret hearing to keep the defense under wraps, but it
1:22
Speaker 1: was too late. The cat was out of the bag.
1:25
Speaker 1: The defense doesn't want the public to know that the
1:29
Speaker 1: alleged defense for the alleged healthcare assassin is extreme emotional disturbance.
1:36
Speaker 1: In other words, to mount a mental defect claim such
1:41
Speaker 1: as this eed extreme emotional disturbance, you have to admit
1:46
Speaker 1: you did it, but you were emotional. Really, this has
1:54
Speaker 1: been all about Luigi Mangioni from the get.
1:58
Speaker 4: Go, young man, and he is being treated like a
2:03
Speaker 4: human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here, and
2:07
Speaker 4: they are literally treating him like.
2:10
Speaker 1: He is.
2:12
Speaker 4: Like some sort of political fodder, like some sort of spectacle.
2:16
Speaker 4: He was on display for everyone to see in the
2:18
Speaker 4: biggest staged purp walk I've ever seen in my career.
2:22
Speaker 4: There was no reason for the NYPD and everybody to
2:25
Speaker 4: have these big assault rifles that frankly, I had no
2:27
Speaker 4: idea it was in their arsenal. And to have all
2:30
Speaker 4: of these the press there, the media there, it was
2:34
Speaker 4: like perfectly choreographed. And what was the New York City
2:37
Speaker 4: mayor doing at this press conference?
2:40
Speaker 1: Boo hoo? After he guns down Brian Thompson on the street,
2:46
Speaker 1: a man he had never met, a man he had
2:50
Speaker 1: a problem with because he didn't like the insurance industry.
2:54
Speaker 1: He's upset because he was treated like a ping pong ball.
2:58
Speaker 1: What does that mean? They walked him from one location
3:02
Speaker 1: to the next, and NYPD was armed. That is SOP
3:07
Speaker 1: standard operating procedure. But yet it's all about Mangione has
3:13
Speaker 1: been since day one. Oh, he doesn't look disturbed to me.
3:17
Speaker 1: Let's see a few shots of Luigi Mangioni. That sound
3:20
Speaker 1: by the way, smart friends at Fox nine. There's Luigi
3:23
Speaker 1: Mangioni with a big smile. I think that's when he
3:25
Speaker 1: was valedictorian at the very expensive fifty thousand dollars a
3:30
Speaker 1: year at Gilman School. There he is back on the beach,
3:32
Speaker 1: living the life of Riley, supported by his parents. Oh,
3:35
Speaker 1: party time, living in a high rise on the beaches
3:41
Speaker 1: of Hawaii, not working, living off his parents multi millionaires.
3:47
Speaker 1: But yet I want to go live there. I want
3:50
Speaker 1: to sit out on the beach and have a fruit drink.
3:54
Speaker 1: But now he's disturbed. I'm confused to Lauren Colin joining
3:59
Speaker 1: me investigatory with la magazine. She's also the star of
4:05
Speaker 1: Pop Crime TV. Let me understand he's upset. He has
4:11
Speaker 1: extreme emotional disturbances that made him gun down. Brian Thompson,
4:17
Speaker 1: a married father of some little boys. What's his problem?
4:21
Speaker 1: He's got a silver spoon still stuck up, excuse me
4:26
Speaker 1: in his mouth. He's living off his parents, doesn't have
4:29
Speaker 1: a care in the world. Yes, I know he's innocent
4:34
Speaker 1: until proven guilty. I want to see shots of him
4:36
Speaker 1: on the beach living it up while everybody else is working.
4:41
Speaker 1: Let's see the video just before Thompson goes down. There's
4:47
Speaker 1: Thompson going to work. I don't want the point of impact. Please,
4:50
Speaker 1: I don't want his sons to see that. There he is,
4:53
Speaker 1: bright and early in the morning, and there's Luigi Manjioni.
4:56
Speaker 1: How do I know that because he's caught on video
5:00
Speaker 1: on video a few moments before flirting with a receptionist.
5:04
Speaker 1: That is his three D three dimensional gun that he built,
5:13
Speaker 1: no serial number on it. Because he built it, it's
5:16
Speaker 1: called a ghost gun because there's no serial number on it,
5:19
Speaker 1: capable of shooting a nine millimeter bullet. And he's claiming
5:25
Speaker 1: emotional disturbance. Okay, Lauren, what's he disturbed about.
5:30
Speaker 3: It's interesting because Mangioni did not use United Healthcare, his
5:34
Speaker 3: family did not use United Healthcare. And I think just
5:38
Speaker 3: from being in the courtroom when it was announced actually
5:42
Speaker 3: by the judge, that he was exploring this eed defense.
5:45
Speaker 1: So the judge mentioned it first.
5:47
Speaker 3: Yes, correct, the judge mentioned it.
5:49
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, Lauren, hold that thought. Hold that thought.
5:53
Speaker 1: Randolph Rice joining US veteran criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor
6:00
Speaker 1: Rice Law MD dot com. Randolph technical legal phrase. I
6:08
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys use it in Baltimore, but
6:09
Speaker 1: I bet they nearly a brick when the judge blurted
6:15
Speaker 1: out the defense of extreme emotional disturbance, because then there's
6:20
Speaker 1: a flurry this paper going everywhere, because now the public
6:24
Speaker 1: knows that he's going to admit he did it. After
6:28
Speaker 1: all this time claiming I didn't do it. I didn't
6:30
Speaker 1: do it. Now he's saying, Okay, I did it, but
6:33
Speaker 1: I was upset. I was very upset at the time
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Speaker 1: I did it. I think they wanted that cat to
6:40
Speaker 1: stay in the bag. And then the judge set it
6:44
Speaker 1: in open court.
6:46
Speaker 5: Well, he set an open court, But Nancy, I'm not
6:48
Speaker 5: sure that that doesn't mean they're still going to use
6:50
Speaker 5: this defense, because remember, even though they're not going to
6:53
Speaker 5: use it through a psychiatrist, psychologist or other experts, this
6:57
Speaker 5: is still a valid defense that he can use moving forward.
7:01
Speaker 5: So not only can he argue that he's not guilty
7:03
Speaker 5: that he didn't do it, it wasn't him. But he could
7:06
Speaker 5: also argue that he's had this extreme emotional disturbance during
7:11
Speaker 5: the trial, but that's going to require him taking the stand,
7:15
Speaker 5: him explaining that motion.
7:20
Speaker 1: So wait a minute. You can't use a mental defense
7:27
Speaker 1: without admitting you did it. So you can't have sad
7:30
Speaker 1: and mental defect. You can't climb some other dude did it,
7:34
Speaker 1: but I was very upset when I did it. You
7:37
Speaker 1: can't have both of those under the law. You can't.
7:40
Speaker 5: But you can play the trial out. And here's how
7:43
Speaker 5: the trial is going to work, dancing and I foresee
7:45
Speaker 5: it this way. And actually I think there's a third option,
7:47
Speaker 5: but we'll get to that in a second. The first
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Speaker 5: one is you start the trial with saying I didn't
7:51
Speaker 5: do it, and you see how that goes, because remember
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Speaker 5: the state goes first. It's their burden to you did it.
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Speaker 1: My ears are bleeding, they're bleeding. You're making them bleed.
8:01
Speaker 1: You're saying, tell the jury I didn't do it, and
8:05
Speaker 1: see how that goes, and then just spin out something
8:08
Speaker 1: else if it's not going.
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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, because it's the state's burden to prove beyond
8:12
Speaker 5: a reasonable doubt that he did this, and then at
8:15
Speaker 5: the end of that if the states, if they believe
8:18
Speaker 5: that the state has got enough evidence, then at that
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Speaker 5: point then you do the extreme emotional disturbance defense where
8:25
Speaker 5: he takes the stand and he tells them exactly how
8:27
Speaker 5: he was feeling emotionally, the anger that caused this, thus
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Speaker 5: trying to get that reduced sentence.
8:33
Speaker 1: The anger anger. Now he's angry. He's angry about what
8:40
Speaker 1: that silver spoon stuck up is. Excuse me still in
8:43
Speaker 1: his mouth that he's angry about his multimillionaire parents supporting
8:48
Speaker 1: everything he did fifty thousand dollars a year Gilman School
8:51
Speaker 1: valedictorian onto Ivy League University Pennsylvania. That ain't easy. The
8:57
Speaker 1: world at his feet literally living in a high rise
9:02
Speaker 1: on the beaches of Hawaii, he has no problem at all.
9:08
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen Trading Places with Eddie Murphy? Because
9:12
Speaker 1: I think you need to refresh your recollection. Okay, there's
9:15
Speaker 1: a scene at the end where Butler runs out on
9:19
Speaker 1: the beach to serve Eddie Murphy and who is the
9:22
Speaker 1: coast Star? Was it dan Aykroyd? Anyway? Drinks made of
9:28
Speaker 1: fresh fruit and it looks so good. That's the life
9:32
Speaker 1: he has been living. But yet he's claiming extreme emotional defense.
9:38
Speaker 1: You know, let me go straight out to Cheryl mccum
9:40
Speaker 1: joining me. Let's get a little reality check here. Let's
9:43
Speaker 1: get out of Randolph Rice's pretend world of what might
9:48
Speaker 1: work at trial. Cheryl McCullum joining me, Cold Case Investigative
9:52
Speaker 1: Research Institute founder. She's a forensic expert, and she is
9:55
Speaker 1: the star of a hit podcast, Guys Zone seven. And
10:00
Speaker 1: of course she wants me to mention her new book,
10:02
Speaker 1: Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer. Great title, Cheryl McCollum.
10:07
Speaker 1: Did you hear Randolph Rice? And really he is an
10:11
Speaker 1: expert trial lawyer. He wins a lot of cases, and
10:15
Speaker 1: he wants to kind of like treat the defense like
10:18
Speaker 1: a pair of socks. Let's try one on, see if
10:21
Speaker 1: we like it. Tell the jury I didn't do it.
10:24
Speaker 1: Somebody else did. That's not me you're looking at in
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Speaker 1: the video. And then if they sense the jury not
10:31
Speaker 1: buying it, they're gonna say, Okay, you know what, I
10:34
Speaker 1: did it, but I was really upset, Nancy.
10:38
Speaker 6: The jury adn't gonna buy any of it. Here's the
10:40
Speaker 6: bottom line. You were upset. You were emotional when when
10:45
Speaker 6: you bought the three D printer, when you got all
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Speaker 6: the materials to buy the ghost gun, when you got
10:51
Speaker 6: the codes to make this gun, when you put it
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Speaker 6: in your backpack, when you went and got the bus ticket,
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Speaker 6: when you spend all of these weeks and weeks get
11:00
Speaker 6: fake ideas from New Jersey, and you know, planning this
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Speaker 6: escape route. When were you so upset? And at no
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Speaker 6: time did you stop this? And you were the only
11:13
Speaker 6: one that could stop this murder. You could have failed
11:16
Speaker 6: to get on that bus. You could have stopped yourself
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Speaker 6: from engrave in those bullets. You did all of these things,
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Speaker 6: and how much time, months, month you stop this man?
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Speaker 6: You went to where he was gonna be. Nobody's gonna
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Speaker 6: buy this was an emotional thing that just all of
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Speaker 6: a sudden happened when they looked at what you did
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Speaker 6: leading up every single.
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Speaker 1: Day, Randolph Rice, I believe Cheryl McCollum has got you
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Speaker 1: over the proverbial barrel because your claim based on what
11:49
Speaker 1: Lauren Conlin told us. You can shake your head all
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Speaker 1: you want to, that doesn't mean it's true. You're claiming
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Speaker 1: that it might work to say I was upset I
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Speaker 1: was extremely emotionally distant. But she's right, Cheryl McCollum is right.
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Speaker 1: When did the disturbance set in when you started planning,
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Speaker 1: when you spent thousands, literally thousands of hours creating a
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Speaker 1: ghost gun without a serial number on it, and got
12:16
Speaker 1: the ammunition with it's after the name of a book
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Speaker 1: about the insurance industry. Delay, deny, depose. I believe it goes.
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Speaker 1: He wrote that on the bullets with a sharpiet, just
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Speaker 1: to make sure everybody got his message. He wanted the
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Speaker 1: message to be attached to it. So isn't it true
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Speaker 1: that extreme emotional disturbance happens at the moment of the shooting,
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Speaker 1: not a well thought out planned over months and months?
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Speaker 1: What about it? Rice?
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Speaker 5: No? No, I think you're wrong, Nancy, And I think
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Speaker 5: Cheryl makes my case for me and makes the case
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Speaker 5: of I'm his attorneys because that emotional disturbance had been
13:01
Speaker 5: building over a long period of time and actually makes
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Speaker 5: this case so much stronger for Mangione to argue that
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Speaker 5: if he makes that decision himself, because the writings, the bullets,
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Speaker 5: the inscribing the work that was done before that shows
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Speaker 5: the building of this emotional disturbance, which I believe is anger.
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Speaker 5: All these emotions we have in our life, sorrow, anger.
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Speaker 1: Fear, please, angry about what the sand between his toes, what.
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Speaker 5: His perceived belief of, how the health insurance system was
13:37
Speaker 5: wronging him and so many other people. And again it
13:40
Speaker 5: might not be right in the minds of the general public,
13:44
Speaker 5: but in his mind. Under that EED, defense has to
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Speaker 5: be reasonable in the mind of the defendant. So if
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Speaker 5: he can show that that anger had been building over
13:54
Speaker 5: that period of time and that emotion caused him to
13:57
Speaker 5: lose that self control, that may be the thing that
14:00
Speaker 5: gets him off of life in prison.
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Speaker 1: M Okay. Back to Lauren Colin joining us. Lauren Colin
14:07
Speaker 1: is now a famous investigative reporter with LA magazine. She
14:12
Speaker 1: has been investigating everything from this case to the missing scientist,
14:16
Speaker 1: missing a dead scientist and beyond, and she's dropping it
14:20
Speaker 1: all in LA Magazine. She's also star of Pop Crime TV. Lauren,
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Speaker 1: this is a secret hearing this last thing that has
14:29
Speaker 1: just happened, and we got the transcription. Tell me what
14:33
Speaker 1: happened when the judge dropped the bomb in court that
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Speaker 1: the defense was using EED extreme emotional disturbance.
14:42
Speaker 3: Yes, well, the judge announced that the defense was exploring this,
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Speaker 3: and when he unsealed the transcript for this hearing, it
14:50
Speaker 3: was very clear, Nancy that the defense was very concerned
14:54
Speaker 3: that this would get out to the public because eed
14:57
Speaker 3: is not a viable defense in federal court, so Luigi
15:01
Speaker 3: technically admitting to this or taking culpability could really hurt
15:05
Speaker 3: him federally.
15:06
Speaker 6: So when they withdrew.
15:08
Speaker 3: The notice, I think many of us surmised that this
15:13
Speaker 3: was why because they could not use the defense in
15:16
Speaker 3: federal court. But with that being said, everybody in court
15:19
Speaker 3: was so shocked. I think a lot of his supporters
15:21
Speaker 3: they didn't block it right away that he was taking
15:25
Speaker 3: culpability because half of them think he didn't do it.
15:27
Speaker 6: Obviously this is.
15:28
Speaker 3: All alleged, and then the other half hailed him a
15:30
Speaker 3: hero for doing it. So for them to hear, you know,
15:35
Speaker 3: I did it, but I was emotionally disturbed. I think
15:38
Speaker 3: that that confused a lot of them.
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Speaker 1: Lauren Colin, I'm just drinking in the photos of Luigi
15:43
Speaker 1: Mangioni on the beaches of Hawaii. He's celebrating with his twins.
15:48
Speaker 1: I don't know what maybe his last automatic deposit into
15:51
Speaker 1: his bank account from his parents, but he does not
15:54
Speaker 1: look like he's got a back ailment to me, and
15:56
Speaker 1: he does not look extremely emotionally disturbed at all. Straight
16:02
Speaker 1: out to clinical psychologist and author doctor Chloe Carmichael. She's
16:08
Speaker 1: the author of Can I Say That? Why Free Speech Matters?
16:12
Speaker 1: On How to use it fearlessly, author of Nervous Energy,
16:15
Speaker 1: Harness the Power. You can find her at doctor Chloe
16:19
Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Chloe, I differ with Randolph Rice because
16:25
Speaker 1: I'm looking at those photos. They were just before his
16:27
Speaker 1: extreme emotional disturbance set in and he came back to Manhattan.
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Speaker 1: There is apparently no mental defect history, no treatment, no anything.
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Speaker 1: And you heard Lauren colin State, and I have read
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Speaker 1: this in the record as well. She's correct. The defense
16:47
Speaker 1: has been concocting, putting together a mental defect defense since
16:52
Speaker 1: September twenty twenty five, and they still don't know if
16:58
Speaker 1: they're going to use it or not. Now, wait a minute,
17:01
Speaker 1: there could be a lot of reasons that they're claiming
17:04
Speaker 1: they don't know if they're going to use it. Once
17:06
Speaker 1: they decide that is their defense, they have to hand
17:09
Speaker 1: over to the state all of their experts, their doctors,
17:13
Speaker 1: their shrinks, medical documents, the works, but until they pull
17:19
Speaker 1: the trigger, they don't have to hand any of that
17:22
Speaker 1: over to the state. In other words, they're stalling. They
17:28
Speaker 1: don't want to give the state the benefit they're supposed
17:32
Speaker 1: to have of interviewing the experts and collecting their own
17:37
Speaker 1: experts to fight back. That's one thing. But I want
17:40
Speaker 1: to ask you, doctor Chloe, what do you make of this?
17:45
Speaker 7: Yeah, Nancy, I definitely would not see this as a
17:48
Speaker 7: case of extreme emotional disturbance. That's the kind of thing
17:51
Speaker 7: that we think of if a man finds his wife
17:53
Speaker 7: and bide with another woman and just emotion takes over
17:57
Speaker 7: and before he's even had a moment to think, he's
17:59
Speaker 7: pulled out a gun and shot the other man. What
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Speaker 7: Mangioni showed here is evidence of what we call cold
18:05
Speaker 7: cognition versus hot cognition. When you have the extreme emotional defense,
18:10
Speaker 7: the idea is that you're so emotional you're not thinking clearly.
18:14
Speaker 7: You're having hot cognition the guns in your hand before
18:16
Speaker 7: you even know what you're doing. Cold cognition, on the
18:19
Speaker 7: other hand, is rational and reasoned. It is exactly what
18:24
Speaker 7: your previous guests pointed out regarding taking the time to
18:27
Speaker 7: get fake ideas, that's cold cognition. That means he was
18:31
Speaker 7: not so overcome with emotion that he couldn't think clearly.
18:34
Speaker 1: You're teaching me something new, hot and cold cognition. Could
18:41
Speaker 1: you break it down in simple lay terms. I'm just
18:45
Speaker 1: a trial lawyer. Explain to me in simple terms hot
18:49
Speaker 1: and cold cognition and how that applies to Luigi Mangioni's
18:52
Speaker 1: defense of extreme emotional disturbance. Aka, I was upset.
18:58
Speaker 7: Right well, everybody by definition is going to be upset
19:01
Speaker 7: when they commit a murder, probably right, So again, with
19:04
Speaker 7: a hot cognition, it might even just be that he
19:09
Speaker 7: saw the Brian Thompson and you know, was just suddenly
19:13
Speaker 7: overcome in a rage because his mother had just died
19:16
Speaker 7: due to a claim being denied, and Mangioni got overcome
19:20
Speaker 7: with emotion and just murdered him right there on the spot.
19:24
Speaker 7: Cold cognition again, would be that he had a lot
19:27
Speaker 7: of time to think it through. Like again, the man
19:30
Speaker 7: who catches his wife in bed with another man. If
19:34
Speaker 7: the man pulls out a gun in a rage in
19:35
Speaker 7: the moment of shock and commits a murder, that would
19:38
Speaker 7: be hot cognition. If, on the other hand, he takes
19:42
Speaker 7: a week to plot it out, catch the man alone,
19:45
Speaker 7: and then pull the trigger. Revenge being served cold, as
19:49
Speaker 7: they say, where it shows rationality and planning and forethought.
19:53
Speaker 7: He's not overcome with emotion. It's cold cognition.
19:57
Speaker 1: Doctor Chloe, What did you say about Luigi Mangioni's mother
20:01
Speaker 1: just dying and the insurance didn't pay any benefits?
20:05
Speaker 7: Right, So, in answer to your question about hot and
20:08
Speaker 7: cold cognition and how they could apply here, if Luigi
20:11
Speaker 7: Mangiani's mother had just died due to an insurance claim
20:15
Speaker 7: being denied, and he just found out, and in that
20:17
Speaker 7: moment he happened to come upon the exact person that
20:20
Speaker 7: had denied the claim, and so in his moment of
20:23
Speaker 7: grief and rage, he killed the man. Right, then you
20:26
Speaker 7: might be able to connect the dots and say he
20:28
Speaker 7: was so overcome with emotion and rage, and in that
20:31
Speaker 7: moment he came upon somebody in his hot cognition, it
20:34
Speaker 7: didn't even make sense, but he thought the man was
20:36
Speaker 7: responsible and so he killed him, then you might be
20:39
Speaker 7: able to make any emotional disturbance defense. But in this case,
20:44
Speaker 7: of course, Luigi Mangiani's mother is correctly.
20:46
Speaker 1: That didn't happen. You're making that up that did not happen.
20:51
Speaker 1: His mother and father and extended family are all alive
20:55
Speaker 1: and well, perfectly living in their mansions.
20:58
Speaker 7: Which is why that was an example of how it
21:01
Speaker 7: could work, but not how it would work, because Luigi Mangioni,
21:05
Speaker 7: in my opinion, did not have any demonstration of hot cognition.
21:10
Speaker 7: There was no triggering event that happened just before the
21:13
Speaker 7: murder that would have put him into a rage that
21:15
Speaker 7: would bring about an emotional disturbance.
21:17
Speaker 2: Defense.
21:22
Speaker 8: At six forty six am, patrol offices from Midtown North
21:25
Speaker 8: Preestinct responded to a nine to one one call of
21:27
Speaker 8: a person shot in front of the Hilton Hotel, located
21:30
Speaker 8: at thirteen thirty five Avenue of the Americas. At six
21:33
Speaker 8: forty eight am, officers arrive and find the victim, Brian R. Thompson,
21:37
Speaker 8: a fifty year old male, on the sidewalk in front
21:40
Speaker 8: of the Hilton, with gunshot wounds to his back and leg.
21:43
Speaker 8: Mister Thompson was removed by EMS to Roosevelt Hospital, where
21:46
Speaker 8: he was pronounced dead at seven to twelve am. Mister
21:49
Speaker 8: Thompson is the CEO of United Healthcare and resides in Minnesota.
21:54
Speaker 9: Brian Thompson is an overachiever in high school at Southampilton
21:57
Speaker 9: High School and at the University of Iowa, Brian Thompson
22:00
Speaker 9: graduates as the valedictorian. Thomson meets his wife Paulte at
22:03
Speaker 9: Iowa where she gets her master's degree in physical therapy. Together,
22:07
Speaker 9: they have two sons during their more than two decades
22:09
Speaker 9: of marriage that Paulette describes as the center of their world.
22:13
Speaker 9: Ryan Thompson joins United Health in two thousand and four
22:15
Speaker 9: and over the next twenty years works his way up
22:18
Speaker 9: to the CEO of United Healthcare.
22:21
Speaker 1: Lauren Conlin, investigative reporter with LA Magazine. We've heard a
22:24
Speaker 1: lot about how awful the insurance companies are, and yes,
22:27
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of clients where I had to
22:29
Speaker 1: pay a crap ton of money another technical legal term.
22:32
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm having a hard time struggling with what happened, of.
22:37
Speaker 6: Course, and Nancy just pointing this out.
22:40
Speaker 3: You've mentioned this. Luigi does have a significant amount of
22:44
Speaker 3: means and there has been a lot of money donated
22:48
Speaker 3: to his defense fund. And there are a lot of
22:50
Speaker 3: defendants out there that are looking for money to hire
22:56
Speaker 3: a good team and so I argue, you know, Luigi's
22:59
Speaker 3: team is in credible, but he could have paid for
23:02
Speaker 3: this team without having other people donate their hard earned money.
23:05
Speaker 1: In my opinion, this case has engendered so much hatred.
23:15
Speaker 10: His children are better off without him. They need to
23:18
Speaker 10: learn not be like their dad and.
23:20
Speaker 6: Enjoy the blood money kids.
23:23
Speaker 10: Brian Thompson, I don't give a flying millions of Americans.
23:27
Speaker 6: I liked it.
23:29
Speaker 10: He's responsible for more deaths than Osama b and Laden,
23:33
Speaker 10: and I remember Americans celebrating when Osama bin Laden was killed.
23:37
Speaker 10: It's not like we don't understand heroic violence or like
23:43
Speaker 10: blend violence is good.
23:45
Speaker 1: What is wrong with these people? Did you hear what
23:48
Speaker 1: she said? Or his children are better off without him.
23:52
Speaker 1: They need to learn to not be like their dad
23:55
Speaker 1: and enjoy the blood money. If Brian Thompson, I don't
23:58
Speaker 1: give a flying f he died, and then the other
24:02
Speaker 1: one chimes in, I liked it. That's from Maul Crane
24:08
Speaker 1: and Newman on X joining me now in addition to
24:15
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, the star of Zone seven podcasts, which by
24:19
Speaker 1: the way, Cheryl is amazing. When I listened to his
24:24
Speaker 1: Zone seven Cheryl, I feel like I'm sitting around the
24:26
Speaker 1: table at the District Attorney's office like we did between
24:29
Speaker 1: trials or after a plea calendar, and everyone's talking about
24:34
Speaker 1: what just happened. Right Your Zone seven podcasts reminds me
24:40
Speaker 1: of that. In addition to Cheryl, doctor Chloe Randolph, Rice
24:43
Speaker 1: Lauren Conlin joining me now is a renowned medical examiner,
24:48
Speaker 1: and I can't stress that enough. Doctor Kindle Crowns is
24:51
Speaker 1: with us. He's the chief medical Examiner of Terrance County.
24:55
Speaker 1: That's fort Worth never lack of business. As I like
24:58
Speaker 1: to say in the Fort Worth Morgue. He is a
25:00
Speaker 1: star of his own podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. I
25:05
Speaker 1: love your dry wit in Mayhem in the Morgue. He
25:09
Speaker 1: is also an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of
25:12
Speaker 1: Medicine at TCU, Doctor Kindle Crowns, I was just listening
25:18
Speaker 1: to these two creatures talking about how happy they are
25:23
Speaker 1: that mister Thompson was gunned down in cold blood, and
25:26
Speaker 1: you know his children are going to play that over
25:28
Speaker 1: and over, that video over and over, including the moment
25:33
Speaker 1: their dad is killed. Could you just give us a
25:36
Speaker 1: little reality check, doctor Kendall Crowns and explain what happened
25:41
Speaker 1: to Brian Thompson, how he bled out on the sidewalk.
25:44
Speaker 2: Certainly so from the information, Brian Thompson had two gunshot wounds,
25:50
Speaker 2: one to the right calf and one to the torso
25:53
Speaker 2: or the back. The one to the torso is going
25:55
Speaker 2: to hit vital organs. There's no specific information available the
26:00
Speaker 2: present time, but torso can be basically your chest and
26:03
Speaker 2: abdomen region, meaning it can hit vital vascular structures organs
26:08
Speaker 2: like the liver, lungs, and heart. So the wound to
26:10
Speaker 2: the calf is going to cause pain and it's going
26:13
Speaker 2: to cause some hemorrhage, but the wound to the torso
26:16
Speaker 2: is what's going to kill him. So he gets shot
26:19
Speaker 2: in the calf, you can tell he's initially kind of limping,
26:22
Speaker 2: and then he gets shot again in the torso, and
26:24
Speaker 2: this wound is going to cause pain. He's going to
26:27
Speaker 2: bleed out slowly because none of the wounds were to
26:29
Speaker 2: the head. So he's going to die of blood loss
26:32
Speaker 2: or exanguination hemorrhaging basically into his internal cavities or onto
26:38
Speaker 2: the street. And as he's dying, losing consciousness, getting colder
26:42
Speaker 2: and colder, he's going to see the murderer walking off,
26:46
Speaker 2: going about his business. So the reality of this man
26:50
Speaker 2: was murdered in cold blood and left to die on
26:53
Speaker 2: the street with people walking past him not even caring
26:56
Speaker 2: that he was dying.
26:59
Speaker 1: Where were you when I was prosecuting cases, Doctor Kendall Crowns.
27:05
Speaker 1: You stated that when the victim was shot in the back,
27:12
Speaker 1: that wound went through his torso he's also shot in
27:17
Speaker 1: the leg. We don't know if that bullet hit the
27:19
Speaker 1: femeral artery. Could you address the possibility that bullet went
27:24
Speaker 1: through the femeral artery in the leg and what the
27:27
Speaker 1: result of that would be, And also, doctor Kendall Crowns,
27:30
Speaker 1: if you could address which organs If he's shot in
27:35
Speaker 1: the torso, the bullet likely pierced.
27:40
Speaker 2: So let's start with the wound to the calf. The
27:42
Speaker 2: calf is usually your lower leg below your knee, so
27:45
Speaker 2: your femeral artery is actually located in your thigh and
27:49
Speaker 2: then branches off in the around the knee into the
27:52
Speaker 2: poplotila artery and the other vascular structures in the lower leg.
27:56
Speaker 2: So it's probably one of these major vascular structures on
27:58
Speaker 2: the lower leg, not as big a femoral but is
28:01
Speaker 2: still a large structure that you could bleed out from
28:04
Speaker 2: unless you got help with the torso. It could be
28:08
Speaker 2: anything lungs, heart, liver, spleen, kidneys, a orda. Any of
28:13
Speaker 2: these major organs sitting in your chest and abdomen could
28:16
Speaker 2: be considered part of the Torso. My feeling is based
28:20
Speaker 2: on watching the video, he probably gets hit in either
28:24
Speaker 2: the lung or liver, or spleen or kidneys, and he's
28:28
Speaker 2: going to bleed out slowly over time because usually when
28:30
Speaker 2: they're hitting the heart, they're dead within a few minutes
28:34
Speaker 2: other major organs that it lasts a little longer, So
28:37
Speaker 2: he doesn't look like he drops dead instantly. There is
28:40
Speaker 2: a timeframe where he is bleeding out, just based on
28:42
Speaker 2: the video.
28:44
Speaker 1: So you're saying he didn't quote drop dead instantly. You're
28:49
Speaker 1: saying that he laid on the sidewalk and bled out
28:53
Speaker 1: or as you like to say, sanguinated, either internally or
28:57
Speaker 1: onto the asphalt the cement. That's correct to you. Cheryl
29:02
Speaker 1: McCollum joining me not just colleague, but a longtime friend.
29:07
Speaker 1: She investigated cases that I tried and prosecuted in intercity Atlanta.
29:13
Speaker 1: She is a star of a hit podcast Zone seven
29:16
Speaker 1: and just write any books. Swans don't swim in a sewer.
29:20
Speaker 1: Solving the cold case of the Flint River Killer's daughter, Cheryl.
29:24
Speaker 1: I'd like you, if you can see it on your monitor,
29:27
Speaker 1: to look at Brian Thompson walking along that morning. I
29:34
Speaker 1: wonder what he was thinking. He was on his way
29:37
Speaker 1: to an early early morning conference while a lot of
29:41
Speaker 1: people are still in bed snoozing. He was up, ready
29:45
Speaker 1: to go to make an appearance. I want to see
29:47
Speaker 1: it again, please. What was he thinking about? Was he
29:51
Speaker 1: thinking like I did when the twins were little? Ooh,
29:55
Speaker 1: I got to get them something to take home to them.
29:57
Speaker 1: What will it be? Will it be an NYC T
30:00
Speaker 1: shirt in maybe an NYPD hat, maybe a little statute
30:05
Speaker 1: of the Statute of Liberty? What could I get them
30:08
Speaker 1: that would make them smile? Because I've been gone? I
30:11
Speaker 1: wonder if that's what he was thinking. Was he thinking
30:13
Speaker 1: about his flight home? Was he thinking about how quickly
30:16
Speaker 1: he could get out of there and get back to
30:18
Speaker 1: his family, and then all of a sudden his world
30:22
Speaker 1: just ends. He will never see his children again, He
30:27
Speaker 1: will not see them graduate from high school, he will
30:31
Speaker 1: not see them go to college. He will not see
30:34
Speaker 1: them fall in love and marry and have children, God
30:36
Speaker 1: willing none of it all over? Were those his last thoughts.
30:43
Speaker 6: You know, Nancy, you mentioned how you and I would
30:45
Speaker 6: sit around and talk about a case beforehand. I know
30:49
Speaker 6: what you would do here. You would take that manifesto
30:53
Speaker 6: and you would go line for line for line, and
30:57
Speaker 6: you would show this was premeditation. This wasn't somebody that
31:01
Speaker 6: had a fit of anger and killed somebody and then
31:04
Speaker 6: was sorry about it. This is somebody again that painstakingly
31:10
Speaker 6: took their time to put a plan in motion. And
31:14
Speaker 6: let's talk about this anger he allegedly had. Remember when
31:18
Speaker 6: he goes back to the hostel and he pulls his
31:22
Speaker 6: face massed down, it's to smile at the clerk. He's
31:27
Speaker 6: flirting here.
31:28
Speaker 1: It is Geryld, the one on the left. He pulls
31:32
Speaker 1: down his mask to flirt with the receptionist.
31:37
Speaker 6: He ain't out of his mind and anger. And I
31:40
Speaker 6: think if this was your case, you would go through
31:43
Speaker 6: that manifesto, show all the premeditation and end with that
31:47
Speaker 6: right there. The smile, the flirt, the trying to get
31:52
Speaker 6: a girl's attention.
31:57
Speaker 1: To Sydney Sylvanni joining US Crime Stories Investigative reporter, Sydney,
32:05
Speaker 1: tell me about the manifesto. Cheryl is absolutely correct. Again,
32:10
Speaker 1: tell us about the manifesto.
32:12
Speaker 11: This writing that was found on Manngioni's person when he
32:18
Speaker 11: was arrested at that Altona, Pennsylvania McDonald's denounces health care
32:24
Speaker 11: in general.
32:25
Speaker 1: It says the system is broken.
32:28
Speaker 11: It says immediate action needs to be taken to right
32:33
Speaker 11: all of these wrongs that the American people are suffering.
32:37
Speaker 11: And he talks about these bean counting predators that need
32:45
Speaker 11: to be taught a lesson. It's horrific the hate and
32:51
Speaker 11: absolute anger he shows towards these people who are just
32:56
Speaker 11: doing their jobs.
32:58
Speaker 1: You know, Sydney, I'm looking at some of his wrong
33:03
Speaker 1: no wonder through admitting he did it. Randolph Rice, have
33:07
Speaker 1: you looked at this manifesto to the Feds. I'll keep
33:10
Speaker 1: this short to save your linked the investigation. I stay, plainly,
33:13
Speaker 1: I wasn't working with anybody else. This was fairly trivial. Frankly,
33:20
Speaker 1: these parasites simply had it coming. The US has the
33:25
Speaker 1: number one most expensive healthcare system in the world, and
33:27
Speaker 1: I'd like to point out the best system in the world.
33:33
Speaker 1: And United is the largest company in the US behind
33:39
Speaker 1: only Apple, Google, Walmart. It grows and grows. He goes
33:43
Speaker 1: on and on. He talks about corruption, greed. Evidently I'm
33:51
Speaker 1: the first to face it with such brutal honesty, and
33:53
Speaker 1: I'd like to focus on Frankly, these parasites simply had
33:57
Speaker 1: it coming. I'll keep this short. I worked alone. Well,
34:02
Speaker 1: given that, what can they do, Randolph Rice. They can't
34:06
Speaker 1: say some other dude did it, which is your first impulse,
34:10
Speaker 1: Because this manifesto is coming in. The judge is already
34:13
Speaker 1: ruled on it.
34:13
Speaker 5: It's coming in, Nancy. But I still think that the
34:18
Speaker 5: defense is going to be playing for fumbles on that
34:20
Speaker 5: first part of the case during the prosecution's presentation. But
34:24
Speaker 5: again going back to my argument, this is the anger
34:27
Speaker 5: that's boiling, the anger that is building over time. Remember
34:31
Speaker 5: that video when they let him out of a police
34:33
Speaker 5: car into I believe the Altoona Police department, he starts
34:36
Speaker 5: screaming angrily at the cameras. Again, that's the sign of
34:40
Speaker 5: that anger that he had inside of him, that emotion
34:44
Speaker 5: that caused this extreme loss of understanding of what he
34:48
Speaker 5: was doing was wrong. And so that's the defense they're
34:50
Speaker 5: going to present on the back end of his case.
34:54
Speaker 1: But wait a minute, Randolph Rice, So now you want
34:58
Speaker 1: me to go with I was not I was upset.
35:03
Speaker 1: You want me to go with I was angry? So
35:06
Speaker 1: what I'm angry most of the time based on the
35:10
Speaker 1: cases that we investigate. But that doesn't give me the
35:14
Speaker 1: right to go gun somebody down on the street. Anger
35:18
Speaker 1: is not a defense.
35:21
Speaker 5: It's not a defense. It's extreme anger. And again, I
35:24
Speaker 5: think that this manifesto and all the things that led
35:27
Speaker 5: up to this show this extreme emotional disturbance, this anger
35:33
Speaker 5: that had been building up for so long. If this
35:35
Speaker 5: was a one off and he just got off the train,
35:37
Speaker 5: gone and shot mister Thompson, this would be hard to
35:40
Speaker 5: argue this eed. But because we have so much evidence
35:44
Speaker 5: leading up to this, he has a much stronger argument
35:48
Speaker 5: that he was disturbed and lost that self control that
35:51
Speaker 5: told him not to shoot mister Thompson on that street
35:53
Speaker 5: in New York City.
35:55
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum and joining us, found of the Cold Case
35:59
Speaker 1: Research Institute and star of his Zone seven podcast, New
36:03
Speaker 1: books ones don't swim in a sewer, Cheryl, does it
36:07
Speaker 1: ever just burn you up or make you upset? Randolph
36:13
Speaker 1: Rice is doing his job. That's why he wins cases.
36:16
Speaker 1: We have an adversary system. We know that it's going
36:21
Speaker 1: to be a fight to the finish, But does it
36:24
Speaker 1: still bother you that the defense just tries on defenses
36:30
Speaker 1: like it's pair of shoes. Take it or leave it.
36:33
Speaker 1: If it doesn't fit, fine, we'll just spin out something
36:36
Speaker 1: else to the jury. We'll try some other dude did
36:39
Speaker 1: it that doesn't seem to be working resonating with the jury.
36:43
Speaker 1: Then we'll go with, Okay, guess what I did do it.
36:46
Speaker 1: I don't know why I just said I didn't do it,
36:48
Speaker 1: but I was very upset at the time I committed murder.
36:54
Speaker 6: Well also saying, hey, we're gonna try this. If it
36:57
Speaker 6: doesn't work, we'll change horses in midstream. Again, the jury's
37:01
Speaker 6: not gonna buy it. Those twelve people, every one of
37:05
Speaker 6: them has been angry. Every one of them has at
37:08
Speaker 6: some point felt like they'd been wronged by someone or something. Again,
37:14
Speaker 6: how many of those twelve people murdered somebody over it?
37:19
Speaker 6: None of them? So Again, if you look at what
37:22
Speaker 6: he does and when he does it, he's happy as
37:26
Speaker 6: a lark on the beach. All his friends thought he
37:28
Speaker 6: was great. Everybody was shocked when he was arrested, couldn't
37:32
Speaker 6: believe it. That shows that he, in fact, was a
37:37
Speaker 6: happy person. He wasn't full of this rage that they
37:41
Speaker 6: now want us to believe that he had. That level
37:44
Speaker 6: of rage cannot be sustained. Yet, over months and months
37:50
Speaker 6: and months, he's building a gun that takes thousands of
37:53
Speaker 6: hours that can't be traced. He's getting fake id's, he's
37:57
Speaker 6: playing in his entrance in the exit. At the same time,
38:02
Speaker 6: he's trying to flirt and you know, get this girl's attention.
38:07
Speaker 6: Which is it, are you angry or do you want
38:10
Speaker 6: to date a beautiful girl? He's not both of those things.
38:15
Speaker 1: Right now, as we go to air tonight, Luigi Mangione
38:20
Speaker 1: is innocent in the eyes of the law, and he
38:24
Speaker 1: remains innocent unless and until the state pierces the presumption
38:31
Speaker 1: of innocence with evidence sufficient to prove him guilty beyond
38:36
Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt. Brian Thompson rest in peace and God
38:43
Speaker 1: be with his children. And also as we go to air,
38:49
Speaker 1: we learn that the defense is now withdrawn the eed
38:55
Speaker 1: extreme emotional defense defense. But we think that's a ploy.
39:02
Speaker 1: We think they will resurrect that at the time of trial.
39:08
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about this case,
39:10
Speaker 1: Please dial toll free eight hundred five seven seven eight
39:14
Speaker 1: four seven seven. The FEDS are also prosecuting him eight
39:19
Speaker 1: hundred two two five five three two four. We remember
39:23
Speaker 1: an American hero. Tonight, Deputy Lynn Jones, Lake County Sheriff's Office, Florida,
39:30
Speaker 1: passed away in the line of duty, leaving behind wife Felicia,
39:36
Speaker 1: and three daughters, Shlon, Candace, and Jada. American hero, Deputy
39:43
Speaker 1: Lynn Jones. Thank you to our guest, but especially to
39:47
Speaker 1: you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off
39:49
Speaker 1: for tonight, but I'll see it tomorrow night, and until then,
39:52
Speaker 1: good night friend,